Unpopular opinions

[Roldski32]

Sorry for continuing this topic

While GSC Falkner's Pidgeotto always clicks Gust, his Pidgey always spams Mud-Slap against Cyndaquil and Growlithe 100% of the time, doesn't matter if Tackle is stronger. Try using Cyndaquil against Falkner's Pidgey in GSC yourself and keep resetting until it uses Tackle (it always click Mud-Slap). Mud-slap dealing less damage doesn't matter there, the problem is moreso turning that fight into RNG fest, and its a lot worse for a Cyndaquil. Without Ember, it has to land like 2 or 3 Tackles to beat Pidgey, whereas Growlithe and Rock Throw Geodude only need one hit to beat Pidgey. If you asked me, a Cyndaquil without Ember is far worse than Chikorita against Falkner.

I have 0 problem reaching L10-L11 by Falkner and if you can reach that level at that point in HGSS, then you shouldn't have issue doing so in GSC. The problem here is moreso that some people just cared so much about not getting overleveled there. Unless you're doing a hardcore nuzlocke, you should be overleveling there anyway, and that's not a bad thing and its not like you get punished so heavily for doing so (Look, Its not a bad thing to have a L11 Geodude by Falkner). You wouldn't feel that in HGSS because Falkner is much higher leveled there.

GSC Falkner is so low-leveled, and yes its a really bad thing and just highlights Jotho's bad leveling curve. The fact that the last trainer at the sprout tower has a L10 Hoothoot compared to Falkner's L9 Pidgeotto should tell you so. Even the very first trainer at the gym has a L9 Spearow that is pretty much a mini-boss, and THAT thing has 60 Base Attack and 70 Base Speed. For reference, Pidgeotto has 60 Base Attack and 71 Base Speed.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Mud Slap is just such a weird move to give Falkner TBH. The type coverage it gives is too much for a 1st gym, the secondary effect is broken, and it's not particularly associated with birds. I get that the flying-type options for a TM are limited(there aren't any good ones at that point), but almost anything would have been better.

It's really not.

Here's the list of Flying TMs in GSC:

These are all the Flying moves in GSC: Mirror Move, Peck, Gust, Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly, and Sky Attack. Gen 2 added Aeroblast. That's it.

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Mirror Move is the only reasonable option, but it's incredibly underwhelming, and it's not like "Parrot Mimicry" would fit a lot of mons either way. Mimic was already a pretty mid option in Gen 1, and that was the best version of it by a mile. This would be an even worse copy of that.

To be fair, Mud-Slap is an awful move, but it does work to give birds a fighting chance against all the Rock-types in Union Cave.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.

 

[Worldie]

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.

 

[Blue glass]

I've never cared that some Johto gym leaders don't use gen 2 mons. Johto and Kanto are the only two regions that are connected, so it's never bothered me.

Honestly considering in later gens Aerial Ace is a TM... Gust could have been a TM as well and fill that hole.
Low BP, accurate without secondary effect, sounds about something that could have been a TM and been on some random non-flying mons with wings or similar.

Water gun was a TM in gen 1, so Gust could have worked too. I've always wondered why Wing Attack wasn't a TM in these earlier gens.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.

Do you feel swapping with Whitney would make it better?

 

[Ironmage]

Do you feel swapping with Whitney would make it better?

It'd have made the Falkner better to be 3rd, but it probably would have made Whitney quite a bit worse. Despite the gym being patterned based on Clefairy, Whitney's iconic because she was at the perfect time for a classic Johto single-stage mon to be a threatening but not insurmountable ace.

 

[Yung Dramps]

If anything I'd say swap Falkner and Bugsy: Ledian or Ariados as first gym ace and Noctowl or Murkrow as second would work out pretty nice

 

[MoonlightRose]

If anything I'd say swap Falkner and Bugsy: Ledian or Ariados as first gym ace and Noctowl or Murkrow as second would work out pretty nice

Ledian yes, but I'm not so sure about Ariados - 90 base attack is a lot for a first gym, especially in Johto where you get nothing good.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The answer is: "Don't have a gym *that* early".

 

[Hugin]

The answer is: "Don't have a gym *that* early".

I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.

More fundamentally, I think every gym should do some combination of teaching the player something and testing them on that thing. This is not something the series has ever particularly gone for, but it's in theory the point of a dungeon into boss fight setup. A first gym then should be the most basic mechancs. Falkner is weird there, since what you SHOULD do is bring Geodude/Onix/Mareep to the fight. SE STAB, resist the birds, win. But the birds have coverage that makes that annoying, arguably punishing you for using the "correct" mons. AND it's coverage that the gym trainers don't have, which means you can't prepare and adapt to it. Just a weird decision.

It's really not.

Here's the list of Flying TMs in GSC:

These are all the Flying moves in GSC: Mirror Move, Peck, Gust, Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly, and Sky Attack. Gen 2 added Aeroblast. That's it.

Now, which one of these would you give to a Lv. 9 leader and make it a TM?

Mirror Move is the only reasonable option, but it's incredibly underwhelming, and it's not like "Parrot Mimicry" would fit a lot of mons either way. Mimic was already a pretty mid option in Gen 1, and that was the best version of it by a mile. This would be an even worse copy of that.

To be fair, Mud-Slap is an awful move, but it does work to give birds a fighting chance against all the Rock-types in Union Cave.

If we're being honest, Falkner in general was a bad decision. Nothing about his gym works.

The last sentence is key. I don't know what I'd do in GF's place to fix that gym, I just know that I don't like any of their current decisions.

If anything I'd say swap Falkner and Bugsy: Ledian or Ariados as first gym ace and Noctowl or Murkrow as second would work out pretty nice

...have we ever had a version-exclusive mon as an ace? Arcanine for Blaine is the only one that comes to mind. I agree with your point, to be clear, but I'm more distracted with this question now.

 

[AztecCroc]

I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.

Falkner isn't level 10 though, Pidgeotto's level 9 (13 in HGSS).

have we ever had a version-exclusive mon as an ace? Arcanine for Blaine is the only one that comes to mind. I agree with your point, to be clear, but I'm more distracted with this question now

We've had few, aside from as you mentioned Blaine, there's:

• Misty while not initially in RBY becomes one in gen 3 as the Staryu line can't be found in FireRed.
• Erika in all gens, Vileplume's exclusive to Red/FireRed/LGP.
• Tate & Liza technically, Solrock and Lunatone are version exclusives.
• Roark, Cranidos is Diamond exclusive.
• Fantina, Mismagius is Pearl exclusive.
• Byron, Bastiodon is Pearl exclusive.
• Iono, Mismagius is Violet exclusive.
• If we're including Kahunas as Gym Leaders, Olivia has Dusk Lycanroc which is (Ultra) Moon exclusive.

Also RB Koga if you want to include third version exclusives since Weezing is unavailable in Yellow.

 

[Blue glass]

• Erika in all gens, Vileplume's exclusive to Red/FireRed/LGP.

And Victreebel is exclusive to Blue/LeafGreen/LGE. If we include Giovanni team in Yellow, there is Persian which is exclusive to Blue.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I don't think you're that wrong, but lvl 10 is honestly fine for a gym and more-or-less fits with the various gyms throughout the series.

It's less about the level range, and more about the options available.

For example, let's compare Falkner to Cheren and Viola, as they're also leaders that are battle *very* early in their games. The immediate thing you notice is that the player has more options to team build compared to GSC. The other one is that more often than not (Dammit, Riolu!) they'll have STAB options, even if they're as weak as Ember.

GSC doesn't really have either. HGSS fixes the STAB issue, but the battle is entirely different as Roost Pidgeotto doesn't play anything close to Mud-Slap Pidgeotto.

So you're in a situation that is entirely dysfunctional. The battle isn't interesting, as it's just the first of many janky bosses that Johto has to offer, your options are poor offensively and defensively, and they're also uninteresting since more likely than not you'll be using Tackle.

So they've made a boss that tries to teach you about coverage moves before you even have STAB. It just doesn't work man, it's telling that most games have at least 2 routes and a dungeon before the first gym. The problem is that even though GSC has Sprout Tower and Dark Cave, none of the options are helpful. Realistically, what is Lick Gastly and 20BP Leech Life Zubat even doing here?

 

[Karxrida]

90 base attack is a lot for a first gym

To be fair, Roark. Plus Ariados is slow enough with a bad enough offensive typing that they could have gotten away with it, even with STAB Fury Cutter.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

To be fair, Roark. Plus Ariados is slow enough with a bad enough offensive typing that they could have gotten away with it, even with STAB Fury Cutter.

The moves it'd have at this point would be... Poison Sting, Constrict, Scary Face, and String Shot.
It doesn't learn Fury Cutter.

That's... actually pretty bad for a 1st Gym's ace at Lv.9. Incredible. Somehow, it'd be a downgrade to Falkner.

 

[CynicalGiant]

I just want to say that it has annoyed me for quite a while that Ledian and Ariados have BSTs on par with Butterfree and Beedrill as if they evolve at level 10 when they evolve at EIGHTEEN and TWENTY-TWO respectively

it makes me so mad man why did they do this lol

 

[Hugin]

I just want to say that it has annoyed me for quite a while that Ledian and Ariados have BSTs on par with Butterfree and Beedrill as if they evolve at level 10 when they evolve at EIGHTEEN and TWENTY-TWO respectively

it makes me so mad man why did they do this lol

Fortunately they learned their lesson. Beautifly, Dustox, Kricketune, and Vivillon all evolve at 10-12 with the 400 BST value. Vikavolt, Orbeetle*, and Lokix all get better BSTs and worse evolution levels to balance it. Interestingly, Unova doesn't really do the early-game bug-type unless you count Leavanny, which falls in the latter group.

*Dottler doesn't evolve until level 30 and has base 335 stats, btw.

 

[Karxrida]

It doesn't learn Fury Cutter.

Wait what.

lmao being a Bug-type is suffering before Gen 4.

 

[Bakugames]

while dottlers bst isnt the best, its immediate access to reflect and light screen makes it a pretty valuable team support member. also its cutieful

 

[pika pal]

Wait what.

lmao being a Bug-type is suffering before Gen 4.

Gen 5 Scizor and Heracross crying hallelujah at not having to carry the type on their back any more.

Speaking of which, I actually kind of like how Golisopod is designed with high stats but balanced by a gimmick because the gimmick isn't completely debilitating to it (deliberately at least), so Spin-offs like Pokemon Go don't absolutely knee-cap it in absence of the gimmick (Slaking, Regigigas, Archeops) and give it a really good place to play around.

 

[CynicalGiant]

*Dottler doesn't evolve until level 30 and has base 335 stats, btw.

yeah but it evolves into evil scientist ufo beetle so I will simply overlook this

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Speaking of which, I actually kind of like how Golisopod is designed with high stats but balanced by a gimmick because the gimmick isn't completely debilitating to it (deliberately at least)

The one thing I don't like about its gimmick is that Emergency Exit is literally Wimp Out.

If it could cancel the switch, I'd think it's great.

 

[pika pal]

The one thing I don't like about its gimmick is that Emergency Exit is literally Wimp Out.

If it could cancel the switch, I'd think it's great.

I still think a funny way to play would be a "Hit and Run" style where it turns every Golisopod move into U-Turn once it's below 50%

 

[pokemon4eva]

Gen 5 Scizor and Heracross crying hallelujah at not having to carry the type on their back any more.

Speaking of which, I actually kind of like how Golisopod is designed with high stats but balanced by a gimmick because the gimmick isn't completely debilitating to it (deliberately at least), so Spin-offs like Pokemon Go don't absolutely knee-cap it in absence of the gimmick (Slaking, Regigigas, Archeops) and give it a really good place to play around.

In Pokerogue it took quite a lot of time to implement Emergency Exit, so Golisopod just hanged around with no ability. Plus, given how battles work here, it can fire off First Impression at the start of every battle WHILE CARRYING STAT CHANGES FOR THE PREVIOUS BATTLES, including Swords Dance boosts! That was a pretty overpowered Pokemon to say the least, and they even gave it Anticipation as a HA to avoid having to deal with EE entirely.

The one thing I don't like about its gimmick is that Emergency Exit is literally Wimp Out.

If it could cancel the switch, I'd think it's great.

Yeah not a fan when there's abilities that do the exact same thing with a different name, hi Shell Armor and Battle Armor.

 

[Bakugames]

im the opposite, if emergency exit was different from wimp out it'd be a much less interesting concept. the whole point is that golisopod is still the same wimp its always been, but its now backed up by an imposing aspect that it doesnt want to break, so it "emergency exits" instead of "wimping out"

 

[Hugin]

yeah but it evolves into evil scientist ufo beetle so I will simply overlook this

To be clear I am the world's biggest Dottler stan, it's amazing how valuable early screens are in-game if you're doing a challenge run. Dottler has carried me before and I want him to come back to the series.

The 335 BST from levels 10-29 is just hilarious to me, because what, was Dustox too effective as a defensive bug type and you needed a worse spread than that?

(And then 335 is good enough ANYWAY)