I will make a small post now because I believe its very pressing for me to already say something, but I pretend to do a post talking about more bureocratic matters once I collect all the evidence and stuff. This post will solely be about Agipass Zap's place in the meta and why it matters. I will also say my perspective abt some of the top player's arguments and why I respectfully think they dont really hold up, especially because I was mentioned in most of them
1. Why use Agilipass Zap?
The reason at its core is simple, offense by itself has problems w revenge killers like Mie/Aero/Dug, offense inherently has power issues, so it has to compensate w setup, however, most of the powerful wallbreaking setup is revenged by those 3, examples go for the likes of CB Meta, End Pert, and DD Tar, to win these MUs, spikeless offense needs a consistent cleaner thats well supported by this relentless pressure, this niche is only done well by DD Mence, theres a argument for Aero, sure, but Aero is rather a bit too weak at times and also incredibely awnkard, not only that but replacing DDMence w Aero in these teams means not having the Intim flexibility, which is crucial for these teams defensive duties, also, one of the best breakers for a Spikeless Aero type is in fact DDMence, so do u really wanna replace em? Theres also the fact that the Spikeless Aero r weaker to Aero spikes, due to the lack of the flexibility DDMence provides, being able to be built either as the breaker or as the sweeper,
which Aero cant really do. Mie also cant do that because of Blissey and the fact its also still revenged by Dug/Aero, this means that to make good Mie or Aero spikeless offense, you would need Dug to remove key bulky mons or you need really good justifications and even more high octane breaking than usual, which usually means limiting your SpikeOff MU, and even then bulky balances can fuck you over w tactical play and Dug, but tbf, its still a interesting game, with Mie (wout Dug), you still are gonna slot DDMence for flexibility and also the MU vs spikeoff anyway, so u didnt really escape the need ow why did I go over all of these alternatives and how Spikeless is fundamentally built? Because its important to highlight how restricted Offense has become since the pass restrictions, to a pt where Aero Spikes or Dug Spikes is simply too good vs them, and the only realistic way to counteract this is DDMence, which in turn makes offense frailer to specials as a result, this I believe is healthy but I also think the fact offense quite requires Mence is not and limits building, the only offense that doesnt require Mence is frankly Dug offenses, which is believed by many top players to be one of the worst types of offense, and its also very weak to Aero (or even DDMence), going back to this point, now if you already caught on, you would understand why AgiZap is very important for this conundrum, it means that offense doesnt need DDMence and it can actually be somewhat better than DDMence there, as it can make Ttar/Meta faster than Aero/Dug, and theres even more creative winpaths with +2 Speed, however, it still is hard to pilot and probably harder and more skill intensive than DDMence is vs fat, while being way easier to pilot than DDMence is vs offense, however AgiZap gives ways to be able to cover both MUs in a way thats interactive for both users, and having AgiZap means offense can have a fighting chance vs those teams wout relying on Mence over and over, this also comes w some benefits of being better vs specials and also being a better supporting piece than Mence is, being able to play both support and having the option to clean is incredible. Sure, Zap can support in other ways, but usually the other ways dont really help and means u have to slot Mence in regardless, TW is unironically too slow for offense, only helping in MUs like Wish Jira, which I think should be a secondary worry, compared to Dug/Aero/Bliss, so basically TW doesnt break and only helps in the offense mu, compared to the flexibility of AgiPass, TW also doesnt really help much vs Aero, Tox is very slow for breaking, and doesnt fit much w the high octane pressing style these offenses r known for. I will admit SubPass actually does, however wout Dug, SubPass is much easier to answer and while dangerous, it also has some severe downsides (just like Agility), and it is way worse at handling Aero, while being better vs fat and balances, but again, that means you must use DDMence with it or else ur actively MU fishing w ur offense, imo. Zap needs to play more of a support role in spikeless because it cant break well wout Spikes, therefore Agi/Sub r the best at doing this, removing Agi makes Zap's spikeless game more one dimensional and makes sure offense will be forced into Menceing or MU fishing in the near future, offense itself already is restricted enough and has enough flaws to work with, its nowhere near the level it was when AgiPass+CMPass was allowed, I can guareentee you, and since its been the best its been in years, we must not restrict it even further, at the possibility that the style may become too one dimensional and in some years time, killed completely, like how Spikeless balance eventually phazed out of the meta naturally due to the rise of stuff like Dug fat.
2 - Interactiveness
Well, here I talk abt interactiveness, Smeargle is uninteractive not only because it negates phazing, but also because it can negate counterplay like Leech Seed or status. Think of Nal's DDPass best MU, its Celebi spike off, purely bc if Beagle enters safely on Skarm, it can Taunt up or DDPass, same if Vap gets the sub up vs it and Beagle can also just negate the Seed w Taunt, and btw, Nal's team is actually quite hard to pilot, compared to the other example I will use anyway, I have seen many ppl actually mess up w Nal's team and its sequencing, however when played correctly it can be very uninteractive and that is a issue in its entirety, its very consistent when done right, I am kinda indifferent to it in the end of the day, but its honestly quite powerful. Mawile fullpass is a lot more uninteractive but also quite more inconsistent, it would be 1000% worse and easier to interact with if Taunt+BP was banned, as Maw becomes unviable and one of the best ways to deal w all in BP types is phys spam, and phys spam is really good, it also means that its easier to continue breaking Subs and easier to really tell if Zap has no attacks, I genuinely think losing to Zap+Vap middlemans into Wak/Yama is perfectly alright because its a lot harder to get the perfect pass off wout Mawile, and so is losing to naked Zap+Wak, its a alright/OK strat that can punish passive teams very well, and I say whats really wrong w that? The idea that BP punishes offense well is a misguided one, sand off has quite a easy time w most BPs and so does heavy on boomspam, naked Zap+Wak can win games off surprise, but its nowhere near the value of genuinely honest AgiPass either way, and Zap+Wak w middlemans when both Taunt Beagle (Smear+BP should be reinstated anyway, the unban wasnt done with our consent) and Taunt Mawile r out of the picture, it becomes a lot easier to handle, due to the fact u cant sleep to generate free turns and taunt+intim cycling to negate counterplay, btw, I wanna keep this a secret for now (as its not tested), but Smear+BP might need to be banned for even other reasons (it should be done regardless, no one asked for this unban, and ill go over on another post why it was purely done to reinforce an agenda), anyway, I am of the firm believer that a mix of Taunt+BP and Smear+BP bans would pretty much kill the issue, and that complaining abt ZapVapWak is kinda just a "get better" moment, just like how Jask isnt even that good, and the only bad thing abt it is that it can collect free cheese wins w sand attack, again id agree w Nal that stuff like this is alright for the meta, we have some near uninteractive MUs that dont get complained, because well, the teams suck, see for example MagDolLax vs stuff like Fat (wout Sableye/Roar Cune) or even normal Bliss TSS, or stuff like how ZapDug makes sure all of our Zap's answers r limited and that Zap-weak leads cant really exist and running one puts you at a inherent difficult scenario, that and the fact u can just get cheesed off a win bc you just so happened to trap the special wall bc there was no good answers to Zap lead, its not really all that different from AgiZap's problematic aspects, and could arguably say SubPass is more toxic, but we move on, because those teams kinda suck, and cant really handle well stuff like Ttar, Aero, DDMence, Lax, Registeel, etc, you really gotta wonder when arent you being just a bit too ban happy w all of this stuff, I guess this is where the post would take a more criticism at the system turn, which I plan to do a post like that later, so hold ur horses for now
3. Restriction on offenses
As I said, a big part of this is that Spikeless offense gets another nerf, ill now refute the stance many ppl have parroted that this isnt a big deal, it absolutely is, ill give examples of how Menceless offense is absolutely hopeless vs Aero/Dug teams (this being a major reason CMPass Cele is pretty mediocre overall):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-846059 this team by SEA for example absolutely overwhelmed by Aero rock spam, it also would be quite difficult to play vs Dug+Spike+Milotic, AgiZap and possibly a SuperBi could somewhat fix the issue, but again, this goes to show how much Mence > Zard would help this team a lot (esp DD Fire Blast Mence), and give this team the pressing it needs for Dug or Aero, going back into my pt that a AgiZap ban likely means offense being restricted into Mence or MU fishing.
I wanna shed light into JG2's post, as i found most of his arguments abt offense interesting, but misguided imo, as some of the replays dont feel they tell the full story:
1)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-812913?p2
This replay is fairly interesting, and I can see where its coming from, but this team is heavily flawed vs DDMence / Aero regardless, Rock+Meta can only do so much at the face of Spikes, esp w Gar support or SuitTar, tbf Registeel Spike off didnt exist at this time, but it absolutely shits on that 6 for example, and ZapGarAero doesnt have a hard time either, finally while the MU is quite neutral, if not good vs most standard Dug Fat, the lack of sand bites a lot and you need to be very precise w the boom timing, Lax helps a lot though, but again, if CB Lax didnt get Skarm there, ABR would be in a lot of trouble vs a simple Tox Skarm+Pert, even, see how he needs to precisely pilot almost every line to get around Pert because his best tool to manhandle Pert is Explosion, he does have somewhat the time to do it, but Pert+Mence still is quite at comfort, and almost snatched a win if wasnt for ABR's brilliant play. It goes to show the fundamental flaws of Aero spikeless and how weak it gets to opposing phys spam, its a interesting idea, but nowhere near the level of the Mence builds and quite fishy, its also (to me) worse than the Agizap builds as well, it goes to show that all the issues I highlighted prior abt building offense, I think we shud talk more abt replays of Aero vs offense, if u wanted a good example, you could have used me vs garay oak r2, not that it doesnt disprove my overall pt abt salamence, but smth to consider about
2)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-849967
This is fun. A mention of me (pro speedpass) to put for a post anti speedpass, I can safely say however, that this just proves everything I was saying correct, see how im forced to use Mence there because of Dug/Aero, sure Mence is a great mon but I dont wanna play Mence on every spikeless off bc there will obviously be drawbacks and problems to face for being too one dimensional, Ludi was chosen here for a similar reason AgiZap would, in fact id say this is a team u could just replace Ludi w AgiZap and mostly be fine w it, outside of the Cele SpikeOff MU, so its likely ud have to change Cune from Stalk to IB, because the main objective of Ludi isnt weather clearing, thats a mere bonus for me here, its function is to be a Swampert check (so Suicune isnt overwhelmed) and be a checkmate tool vs EC, because again, im quite weak to Aero, both things Agi Grass Zap could do and I could create a variant where I simply add a breaker over Mence and Zap>Ludi and the team wud function very similar, it could even be a improvement at the cost of being harder to pilot, it goes to show that a Agipass less team needs Mence to compensate for these MUs, esp Classico, which again makes our offenses more and more one dimensional
3)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-847966
This one is interesting, but ultimately, I think while the trading is quite potent and subpassing here is cool, its too weak to Aero or even Dug, Dug fat absolutely munches this and Skarm can get 3x on Meta rather easily, lack of Mence means ur overreliant on Loom to do the work, Lax can break alright I suppose, but just goes to show the Gar weakness, even w Suittar, as Gar can suddenly trade w Suittar and aero becomes nightmarish, esp since it can pivot on Gar and click moves, Zap is also similarly terrifying for a offense like this, and its not easy to play vs Mence+Bliss either (tbf, neither wud Mence/Zap there, but still), as a cleaner I firmly believe Gar is outclassed by Zap there, who can provide AgiPass, better safety vs Classico, and do some nice combos like SubSeed Loom or mini chains w Vap, to me this team is once again too weak to phys spam (see the trend?) especially bc Ttar can be used as setup, or Loom once spore is spent, which it might be on Dol, Zap doesnt fix Mence, ill admit, but Zap makes the MU a lot more feasible vs classico and gives off more and more synergy, ofc in this particular game, Modest 4a gar ended up being better, but overall, I believe Zap would be superior from a team comp perspective
The conclusion: To me, I said these were a bit misguided because none showed the performance of said Agility-pass less mixoffs vs Aero/Dug to provide a argument that this is not necessary for the tier, for example me vs triangles is a mence cune team vs spikeless balance, river vs starmaster were 2 unpopular type of offense facing each other, hell starmaster's team is literally what i was talking abt, look at how ridicuosly weak it is to aero spike or dug, this is what happens when offense decides to not bring mence or agizap, it basically means classico or cele spikeoff farms, the same is true for the new age registeel+aero spikeoffs
Other side tangents:
About Padeli's post in the other thread. He says he thinks its a very absurd reason, i say that not just you padeli, but ppl in general are too keen on saying stuff is cheese just because they dont use it, i have highlighted a lot of stuff as to why AgiZap is great for this purpose and to make offense less one dimensional, id say to keep a open mind, i know u didnt mean to offend when u said it was absurd, but I feel too many ppl that dont play the archetype consistently dont really know the overall truth and are too happy to just say its cheese, wout ever tinkering w it, i know its not the case w SEA or JG2, but its something to keep in mind for everyone, especially the ppl who mostly play Spikes balance every tour.
Examples of Menceless teams Zap can enhance w AgiPass:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-854734
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-846032
I wanna make a tangent on these 2 replays, notice that my game for example, still was quite hard to win with and AgiPass making Jira able to bypass CB Gon was incredible for my strat, I would probably win at some pt but crit+fullpara ended up helping me quite a lot, think of CB Gon as just Aero there, if I didnt have Agili, I was potentially screwed, as many teams that drop Agili usually are in the face of revenge killers like this, as offense has to be naturally slow due to the need of setup to compensate for lack of power, and the need of bulk to hold the fort vs dugtrio
The 2nd replay is very interesting bc this is technically speaking a terrible MU to sapientia, which would usually lean towards uninteractive right? While sapientia got quite lucky, it shows too that because of AgiPass, this MU, which would be incredibely bad is able to be flipped over its head and ur able to have a fighting chance vs it, it doesnt, however, diminish ur opps chances to win w it, as its still p diff to pull off and stuff like hera missing can happen and u can be screwed bc of it (also, hera may not have KOd raikou?) Idk the item tho, it might have been CB, for all I know, either way SEA's team is still interactive and idt anyone would seriously argue otherwise, besides making sure MUs arent like 70-30 or 80-20 is a good part of the game, the more MUs r quite equal the better, although that doesnt mean we shud strive for perfect 50-50 MUs either, I do believe prep shud be rewarded as part of the game, and that MU fishing is a aspect of it overall, but that if possible, the maximum advantage shud be around 60-40 or 65-35, which I believe AgiPass doesnt pass this threshold w Smear+BP and Taunt+BP bans, that said, if our options is to either Ban or DNB, ill vote DNB every single day, and I frankly reccomend u to do the same, as it is my personal opinion that this debate wont end ever, because all that can be discussed is the OGC's agenda and stuff like Jask/Sand Attack gets shutdown immediately, despite the great support on it, but im getting ahead of myself, I may make a post talking abt these more bureocratic matters in the future, but quite frankly, I think they r boring and id rather talk abt how valuable AgiPass Zap is for offense actually. That is all.
