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OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
So I'm comically unemployed and can go way earlier than 2PM my time but I accept your challenge. We'll see who
Dang where do I sign up to get my own rival character?
I haven’t had a chance to post here in a while but I think it’s time we start having a conversation about some of the placement changes that some Pokémon might see going forward with the new VR and the SpeedPass ban. I expect that playing games on the ladder should be more enjoyable with SpeedPass gone and tournaments should have slightly less cheese to deal with. I think SpeedPass created a lot of unhealthy interactions in the metagame and I do not feel bad for Ninjask players.
Zapdos is the main Pokémon I think is going to take a hit in the post-SpeedPass metagame, but it’s still a unanimous Top 10 threat in the tier with a decent case for Top 5. Dry Passing remains intact for it, and fundamentally SpeedPass being gone doesn’t do much to change Zapdos’s strong special game. As strong as SpeedPass was, its removal doesn’t change very many of Zapdos’s own matchups at the moment. It may be interesting later down the line to see if Agility + Roar variants rise in usage but this specific combination was already lesser seen with SpeedPass in the tier anyways and the main use I could see this combo having would be against opposing boosters with maximum Sp. Atk.
Jirachi’s place in the old, existing VR seems somewhat out-of-date to me. For a while Jirachi was placing as high as 6th in top ladder every month for almost a year straight, and in tournament play there’s all kinds of stuff you can do with this thing. Pre-nerf Steel/Psychic typing will never not be unironically goated, and I struggle to see how something this versatile isn’t seeing more arguments in favor of a genuine Top 5 placement. It’s rarely going to be the best Pokémon for whatever job you want it to do, but it sometimes is outright and even when it’s not it can still make progress against both faster and slower teams. It’s also one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier, which may be useful information for slower breakers that were previously known for being SpeedPass recipients.
After falling off for me for a decent while due to ADV’s strong physical metagame and general tendency towards passivity, I think the metagame could start favoring Blissey again at the top levels of play. With SpeedPass gone, physical offense could become somewhat limited to Aerodactyl and Dragon Dance sweepers, both of which Blissey at least has tools for, whereas special attackers shouldn’t be as negatively impacted by the ban by comparison. 252 Sp. Atk variants should continue seeing success across the board, and less aggressive utility variants could see some use at facilitating win conditions depending on how the metagame develops over the next few months. Right now I’d say Blissey’s no lower than Top 10 for me but not as high as the other two Pokémon I’ve discussed.
Now, this one’s pretty interesting, because on the whole I think the metagame has gotten at least decently good at worst at taking Medicham and the other Fighting-Types into account. Medicham sees use as a faster alternative to Breloom and powerful wallbreaker that can run either Choice Band sets or the occasional Bulk Up to decent success. That said, I don’t think the SpeedPass ban is going to be kind to this Pokémon, specifically for lower level players- like myself, lol- that are either new and trying to learn the game for the first time or are looking for the most broken things possible. Behind Speed boosts, Medicham used to be able to threaten to clean up entire games, but it won’t be able to do this as effectively anymore, and on top of not having the greatest defensive utility for teams in the world, I worry that Medicham’s specificity may keep it away from a wider variety of teams going forward. Even strong breakers usually need to be able to bring something to teams defensively if they can’t threaten to sweep as easily.
Zapdos is the main Pokémon I think is going to take a hit in the post-SpeedPass metagame, but it’s still a unanimous Top 10 threat in the tier with a decent case for Top 5. Dry Passing remains intact for it, and fundamentally SpeedPass being gone doesn’t do much to change Zapdos’s strong special game. As strong as SpeedPass was, its removal doesn’t change very many of Zapdos’s own matchups at the moment. It may be interesting later down the line to see if Agility + Roar variants rise in usage but this specific combination was already lesser seen with SpeedPass in the tier anyways and the main use I could see this combo having would be against opposing boosters with maximum Sp. Atk.
Jirachi’s place in the old, existing VR seems somewhat out-of-date to me. For a while Jirachi was placing as high as 6th in top ladder every month for almost a year straight, and in tournament play there’s all kinds of stuff you can do with this thing. Pre-nerf Steel/Psychic typing will never not be unironically goated, and I struggle to see how something this versatile isn’t seeing more arguments in favor of a genuine Top 5 placement. It’s rarely going to be the best Pokémon for whatever job you want it to do, but it sometimes is outright and even when it’s not it can still make progress against both faster and slower teams. It’s also one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier, which may be useful information for slower breakers that were previously known for being SpeedPass recipients.
After falling off for me for a decent while due to ADV’s strong physical metagame and general tendency towards passivity, I think the metagame could start favoring Blissey again at the top levels of play. With SpeedPass gone, physical offense could become somewhat limited to Aerodactyl and Dragon Dance sweepers, both of which Blissey at least has tools for, whereas special attackers shouldn’t be as negatively impacted by the ban by comparison. 252 Sp. Atk variants should continue seeing success across the board, and less aggressive utility variants could see some use at facilitating win conditions depending on how the metagame develops over the next few months. Right now I’d say Blissey’s no lower than Top 10 for me but not as high as the other two Pokémon I’ve discussed.
Now, this one’s pretty interesting, because on the whole I think the metagame has gotten at least decently good at worst at taking Medicham and the other Fighting-Types into account. Medicham sees use as a faster alternative to Breloom and powerful wallbreaker that can run either Choice Band sets or the occasional Bulk Up to decent success. That said, I don’t think the SpeedPass ban is going to be kind to this Pokémon, specifically for lower level players- like myself, lol- that are either new and trying to learn the game for the first time or are looking for the most broken things possible. Behind Speed boosts, Medicham used to be able to threaten to clean up entire games, but it won’t be able to do this as effectively anymore, and on top of not having the greatest defensive utility for teams in the world, I worry that Medicham’s specificity may keep it away from a wider variety of teams going forward. Even strong breakers usually need to be able to bring something to teams defensively if they can’t threaten to sweep as easily.
I haven’t had a chance to post here in a while but I think it’s time we start having a conversation about some of the placement changes that some Pokémon might see going forward with the new VR and the SpeedPass ban. I expect that playing games on the ladder should be more enjoyable with SpeedPass gone and tournaments should have slightly less cheese to deal with. I think SpeedPass created a lot of unhealthy interactions in the metagame and I do not feel bad for Ninjask players.
Zapdos is the main Pokémon I think is going to take a hit in the post-SpeedPass metagame, but it’s still a unanimous Top 10 threat in the tier with a decent case for Top 5. Dry Passing remains intact for it, and fundamentally SpeedPass being gone doesn’t do much to change Zapdos’s strong special game. As strong as SpeedPass was, its removal doesn’t change very many of Zapdos’s own matchups at the moment. It may be interesting later down the line to see if Agility + Roar variants rise in usage but this specific combination was already lesser seen with SpeedPass in the tier anyways and the main use I could see this combo having would be against opposing boosters with maximum Sp. Atk.
Jirachi’s place in the old, existing VR seems somewhat out-of-date to me. For a while Jirachi was placing as high as 6th in top ladder every month for almost a year straight, and in tournament play there’s all kinds of stuff you can do with this thing. Pre-nerf Steel/Psychic typing will never not be unironically goated, and I struggle to see how something this versatile isn’t seeing more arguments in favor of a genuine Top 5 placement. It’s rarely going to be the best Pokémon for whatever job you want it to do, but it sometimes is outright and even when it’s not it can still make progress against both faster and slower teams. It’s also one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier, which may be useful information for slower breakers that were previously known for being SpeedPass recipients.
After falling off for me for a decent while due to ADV’s strong physical metagame and general tendency towards passivity, I think the metagame could start favoring Blissey again at the top levels of play. With SpeedPass gone, physical offense could become somewhat limited to Aerodactyl and Dragon Dance sweepers, both of which Blissey at least has tools for, whereas special attackers shouldn’t be as negatively impacted by the ban by comparison. 252 Sp. Atk variants should continue seeing success across the board, and less aggressive utility variants could see some use at facilitating win conditions depending on how the metagame develops over the next few months. Right now I’d say Blissey’s no lower than Top 10 for me but not as high as the other two Pokémon I’ve discussed.
Now, this one’s pretty interesting, because on the whole I think the metagame has gotten at least decently good at worst at taking Medicham and the other Fighting-Types into account. Medicham sees use as a faster alternative to Breloom and powerful wallbreaker that can run either Choice Band sets or the occasional Bulk Up to decent success. That said, I don’t think the SpeedPass ban is going to be kind to this Pokémon, specifically for lower level players- like myself, lol- that are either new and trying to learn the game for the first time or are looking for the most broken things possible. Behind Speed boosts, Medicham used to be able to threaten to clean up entire games, but it won’t be able to do this as effectively anymore, and on top of not having the greatest defensive utility for teams in the world, I worry that Medicham’s specificity may keep it away from a wider variety of teams going forward. Even strong breakers usually need to be able to bring something to teams defensively if they can’t threaten to sweep as easily.
Smeargle's viability in ADV OU is now thrown into the gutter since Smeargle is a one trick pony who perpetrated Speedpass. (I.E: Dragon Dance), it's a "good in theory, bad in practice" mon that's outclassed as an offensive spiker compared to Cloyster (Pressures Skarm) or even Glalie (Who can taunt).
Vaporeon tbh isn't too affected by the Speedpass ban, yea Salacpass is banned, but you can still Subpass 101 HP subs with Wish as a bulky pivot; freeing more offensive options. Vaporeon ain't Suicune nor Milotic, but on certain teams it's quite a nuisance.
Go back to NU hell, Mawile.
Celebi is thankful the ADV congress didn't outright ban all boost pass & can act as either an SD passer or CM pass on offense. Speedpass if anything is pretty much the sins on Ninjask making low ladder harder compared to high ladder.
Don't really agree with smeargle being a one trick pony. It will still have a place as an offensive spiker over cloy with far more move versatility and coverage and can still run salac without bp. Players will just need to be forced to use it other than speed pass cheese lmao.
Personally, I don't want Mr. Mime to haunt my dreams again so I'm gonna say no
Lmfao how was the match
CM pass will become better, speedpass was always a miserable matchup for it. Also phazers will become a bit less common due to no speedpass which of course is good for them as well.I haven’t had a chance to post here in a while but I think it’s time we start having a conversation about some of the placement changes that some Pokémon might see going forward with the new VR and the SpeedPass ban. I expect that playing games on the ladder should be more enjoyable with SpeedPass gone and tournaments should have slightly less cheese to deal with. I think SpeedPass created a lot of unhealthy interactions in the metagame and I do not feel bad for Ninjask players.
Zapdos is the main Pokémon I think is going to take a hit in the post-SpeedPass metagame, but it’s still a unanimous Top 10 threat in the tier with a decent case for Top 5. Dry Passing remains intact for it, and fundamentally SpeedPass being gone doesn’t do much to change Zapdos’s strong special game. As strong as SpeedPass was, its removal doesn’t change very many of Zapdos’s own matchups at the moment. It may be interesting later down the line to see if Agility + Roar variants rise in usage but this specific combination was already lesser seen with SpeedPass in the tier anyways and the main use I could see this combo having would be against opposing boosters with maximum Sp. Atk.
Jirachi’s place in the old, existing VR seems somewhat out-of-date to me. For a while Jirachi was placing as high as 6th in top ladder every month for almost a year straight, and in tournament play there’s all kinds of stuff you can do with this thing. Pre-nerf Steel/Psychic typing will never not be unironically goated, and I struggle to see how something this versatile isn’t seeing more arguments in favor of a genuine Top 5 placement. It’s rarely going to be the best Pokémon for whatever job you want it to do, but it sometimes is outright and even when it’s not it can still make progress against both faster and slower teams. It’s also one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier, which may be useful information for slower breakers that were previously known for being SpeedPass recipients.
After falling off for me for a decent while due to ADV’s strong physical metagame and general tendency towards passivity, I think the metagame could start favoring Blissey again at the top levels of play. With SpeedPass gone, physical offense could become somewhat limited to Aerodactyl and Dragon Dance sweepers, both of which Blissey at least has tools for, whereas special attackers shouldn’t be as negatively impacted by the ban by comparison. 252 Sp. Atk variants should continue seeing success across the board, and less aggressive utility variants could see some use at facilitating win conditions depending on how the metagame develops over the next few months. Right now I’d say Blissey’s no lower than Top 10 for me but not as high as the other two Pokémon I’ve discussed.
Now, this one’s pretty interesting, because on the whole I think the metagame has gotten at least decently good at worst at taking Medicham and the other Fighting-Types into account. Medicham sees use as a faster alternative to Breloom and powerful wallbreaker that can run either Choice Band sets or the occasional Bulk Up to decent success. That said, I don’t think the SpeedPass ban is going to be kind to this Pokémon, specifically for lower level players- like myself, lol- that are either new and trying to learn the game for the first time or are looking for the most broken things possible. Behind Speed boosts, Medicham used to be able to threaten to clean up entire games, but it won’t be able to do this as effectively anymore, and on top of not having the greatest defensive utility for teams in the world, I worry that Medicham’s specificity may keep it away from a wider variety of teams going forward. Even strong breakers usually need to be able to bring something to teams defensively if they can’t threaten to sweep as easily.
Other than that speed control mons will be better, Aero especially since it could get locked into EQ for free jask setup.
I'll be the one to hopefully open the floodgates
Yes, I am a Skarm 1 believer now. Technically, you can certainly still argue that sand is more warping than spikes, but it's close and reasonable people could disagree. Regardless, this mon is clearly the top consideration when building any ADV OU team. Every team and basically every set is designed around limiting it, unless you're using Mag which is obviously just another thing you use to limit Skarm. Even Skarm itself has started spamming Thief sets which aim to either limit opposing Skarm or limit opposing Skarm mitigation (spinners). During Jimvitational, I legit started to feel like if you don't use Skarm, you are kind of immediately nerfing yourself. At the very least, Skarm is just so much easier to use/more stress free in every way than other strategies. Spikeless offenses have to do so much planning in sequencing, whereas every Skarm team's matchups are so much easier to understand and pilot.
To talk briefly about sets, the one I will still use the most is Spike/Roar/Peck/Protect, as it's just the easiest to fit and does Skarm's main jobs well. ToxTect is great in the very very rare cases you can actually use it but I don't see good reason to not be aware of/sell the matchups vs all of Gengar, RefDol, and Forre. So yeah it's just immensely hard to fit. ToxPeck splits the difference and is kind of the best set for the purpose of being a set that aims to beat all the spinners, but I still see it more as a set you necessarily use rather than one you want to use. I don't believe in Taunt anymore because Thief does a better job of winning spike wars long term, and if you're a fast paced offense team I believe it's better to just have a team that wants to play a 3 up vs 3 up scenario, especially since again Taunt won't limit opposing spikes long term anyways. Yolo has also come back in a big way and is worth mentioning for sure, though I would say the only use case that has really clicked is using it with Milo/Cune + Dug, more on that in this excellent post by johnnyg2 talking about McMeghan's SPL Tiebreak team if you're not familiar.
Should have a lot less to say about this mon. Thank God for sand of course. BKCTar has probably fallen off too much in my eyes, it's still the best at absolutely breaking open Bliss teams. Even Dug/Dol/Milo teams can get put in very awkward positions, but SubPunch sets are admittedly better vs those teams. I do think DD should probably always be used instead of it on spikeless though. Pursuit also of course occupies a unique spot in the meta and is probably another S Tier set.
Not much to say here, it's just the biggest posterchild for offense and makes so many teams go. Really pretty endless utility both offensively and defensively and will have something to offer in every matchup, especially since it's the best Explosion user. Agility probably the most splashable set. I used to hate mixed sets but PsyFire is good on Dug offenses at least.
Similar to Metagross in that it just has immense utility both offensively and defensively. A lot less upside offensively than Metagross obviously, but also much more unique in its defensive profile. I will say sometimes it's kind of an awkward mon when fitting it on teams because it's usually at its best with spikes, but Pert spikes teams often can get overwhelmed by opposing spikes teams. Pairing it with the spinners doesn't really work because if you're using Claydol, you'll use a different water instead, and Starmie + Pert is similarly a bit awkward (though there are more use cases for this). I also really don't care for Forre + Pert mid-paced balances at all. The other option to help the opposing spikes weakness is to use Flygon instead. So yeah, it's really limited to more offensive spikes teams, which admittedly is fine since many of these teams are some of the best teams in the game. I recently have enjoyed using offensive 3 attacks + Refresh on these teams, as it does a really great job of limiting SkarmBliss and comes with the bonus of being a Pert that can switch into Tar turn 1 without sacrificing too much momentum(as long as you hit Pumps). It's also not used as much on the trapper-based spikeless offenses, though it does occasionally find a place on them. Still, checking basically every physical attacker is irreplaceable.
Only reason I hesitate somewhat to rank this mon this high is that it fits on a more limited number of teams (only with spikes or with Dug), but the teams it goes on are excellent and Gengar performs amazingly on said teams. I do value the fact it can make every matchup playable like nothing else. Some of the more recent fat builds have admittedly had some smart ways to mitigate the Gengar matchup a bit more than they had in the past, but in a vacuum Taunt+Wisp is still one of the most threatening things these teams can face. Still amazing vs MagOff, still hard for any team to stop it from making progress in general, missing Wisp notwithstanding. The downsides are its moves are pretty weak (though Modest helps...) and the fact once it has taken any damage its utility is diminished a ton.
To be honest, I actually do kind of agree with those that feel that this mon is not as overwhelmingly powerful as it should be on paper. I just think I simply cannot ever rate it any lower than about here just for the fact that it can and does fit on literally every type of team in the meta.
This actually seems a little too high to me, but I do feel it clearly should be above everything below it, so I suppose it's correct. Honestly think its set versatility is actually a touch overrated. I find myself just using CM, especially SuperRachi, more than anything. That said, Wish is admittedly a nightmare for a lot of teams and can also enable lots of stuff. It's also another mon that can find itself on all sorts of different types of teams which, like Zapdos, gets my respect on a VR. I will say Registeel seems to have encroached on this mon's territory a little more than it has on even Metagross.
I think this ranking can be justified just on the fact that this mon really is among the more warping aspects of the tier. It would probably be even higher, but in general I think the classical ZapDug offenses are not very good at all. On the offensive end of the spectrum, I'm a much bigger fan of JynxDug or teams with multiple boomers to set up the Dug trap instead of using the fat chungus Dug that goes all in on the Bliss trap when she's at full health. Dug is obviously great at simplifying game states, which is something I value a lot, and just the sheer number of mons that Dug threatens to forcibly remove with little or no chip is of course very strong.
This is probably gonna be a lower ranking than most, So I guess I need to explain it. Obviously, I still value its place in the tier highly, I mean I'm still putting it top 9 after all. It is one of the top things you consider when building, which is the big justification for Skarm #1. I just think the main thing is that its viability is hugely tied to Skarm (much moreso than even say Gengar). Obviously, they are just a good pairing, but Skarm makes Bliss go much much much more than Bliss makes Skarm go. Also it does mandate more support in my opinion than other mons at this level of viability rather than being singularly good on its own. It does cede a lot of momentum to opposing Skarm, physical threats, and even just CMers. I think it absolutely needs to be paired with Dug, Mag, Flygon, or a spinner. Of course, if it does get this support it is just straight up the only mon that can do what it does and the teams it actually fits on are some of the most reliable teams in the tier. Another positive about Bliss is that it actually does have a surprising amount of set versatility. TWave + Aroma seems like the most consistently strong set to me. All that said, I think it is also worth saying that a lot of really good players flat out do not use this mon that much and they still find great success. Ranking this mon anywhere between like 3rd and 18th is probably justifiable to me.
Not much to add here. I suspect I will be a tiny bit higher on this mon than some, but that's fine. It's a cleaner, revenge killer, breaker all in one. In a sense, Aero spikes are kind of the default playstyle since Aero is the fastest mon that also gets to use an item that makes it stronger, so if the opponent is not prepared for it, they will just lose. Of course because of that fact, that indeed means every well constructed team will be built with Aero in mind at least to some extent, which is kind of a downside to using it. That fact that Aero is considered so strongly when building is something I value in a VR though, as I've mentioned. Despite the downsides, it is still fantastic against many offenses and against many fatter builds as well.
This has always been sort of a hard mon to rank for me, I think in large part because its game-to-game performance feels to be a bit all over the place. Sometimes Leech + spikes are just really oppressive, but sometimes it doesn't really get anything going. BP sets will also flop a good percentage of the time. Everyone knows the defensive sets are maybe the biggest hax magnets in the tier, but when it avoids hax it's kind of the only mon that can check things in the way it does. Of course, Celebi can also enable all sorts of offensive strategies both with and without spikes and that's probably where it has the highest ceiling. As an offensive threat itself, I feel it's usually somewhat underwhelming.
Honestly, I used to rate this mon even more highly, but I do feel like the more offensive Dol teams have fallen off a fair bit in recent times. Also the fact I actually view Donphan as viable now has hurt a tiny bit. Still, it occupies a very unique place in the metagame. It Is the best/only thing that can do exactly what it does, and the teams it goes on are among the most consistently good teams in the tier.
This mon still has pretty awesome and unique utility, but I do think its use cases have suffered a fair bit with Charizard actually being used more and more on spikes teams. Obviously they're different, but Zard is a better breaker, gives an extra check to Metagross, checks the pixies better, and switches into fighting types reliably just as many times as Mence. Mence does have higher upside as a cleaner though as vs a lot of teams once you make one aggressive move the game can be broken open in an unrecoverable way. Also, unlike Zard, Mence gives an extra pivot vs physical Tyranitars which is a huge point in its favor. DD is always touch-and-go for me but people messing around with sets like Sub, DDMix, and the infamous PenguinMence have been a nice little boost for it. CBMence should probably make a comeback considering some of the most popular teams currently; I just don't love the teams it ends up on, but maybe there's room for creativity in that regard.
Of course Mag teams will never reliably beat Skarm teams, but still it's just the ultimate game state simplifier which is something I personally value a ton to say nothing for the enabling in the teambuilder. People often have nasty things to say about SkarmMag teams, but I think you can kind of pick-and-choose what you want to leave them weak to and then you can have some pretty strong matchups elsewhere, so I think they're quite worth using.
Tricky mon to rank. The classic criticisms of the teams it goes on are still fair, even when pairing it with things trying to mitigate it from getting overwhelmed (Celebi, Regice, Zap, CalmCune, Jolt, etc). Its role on spikeless/dugless teams is invaluable though. It's the strongest trader in the tier and gonna get key things done in any game where it's not facing 3 of Tar, Skarm, Gar, Meta. So I suppose where you rank it is gonna depend on how you view those teams and how often you think it will face the aforementioned mons.
I would rank this mon even higher if I cared for DefMie at all. Just seems like that set is kind of fishing for an extremely specific team; a Skarm team where the Skarm doesn't have Toxic or Thief and is not paired with Gengar or SuitTar. Admittedly, if it does land that matchup it can dominate a game like little else. If it faces 1 out of the 3, it can get things done but has to play with so much less flexibility than Claydol does in similar matchups. If it faces 2 out of the 3, it's very likely doomed. But anyways, OffMie is fantastic. Really punishes Blissless harder than arguably anything and you also of course can pair it with Bliss punishers like SubTar or with Bliss removers e.g. boom into Dug. Surf/Beam/Recover/Spin compresses in a very elegant way too and is really pretty much just as good as DefMie in the matchups where you want DefMie.
I know I will be lower on this mon than most, but I just don't really vibe with it. I'm still putting it this high because it is a mon to respect in the builder. Although, that said, I think it's much easier to address there than people sometimes act like. I really often just prefer to use Starmie in a spot where you'd use offensive Suicune. The "Skarm Beatdown" type squads that it is key on have fallen off a bit too. It's at its best in my eyes on the fat Dug + spin + spike teams and even there it's competing for the spot with Milotic, but it definitely performs amazingly on such squads.
I believe since the initial Zard boom people have gotten a good bit better at facing this mon and limiting its breaking abilities. Its power is sometimes disappointing. Still, you have to give it a lot of props as it immediately and directly threatens a lot of the top mons in the meta and doesn't need the assistance of trapping or spikes to do it. It is pretty unique in that regard and is the number one mon that can make spikeless/trapless teams go. It's got some great and pretty unique utility in general, being a nuisance to Gengar possibly being its greatest trait in the builder.
Another mon that's unique in what it does as the only spike immune physical check. Will always be limited by the amount of teams it can actually fit on, but it performs exceptionally on the teams it does go on. You do need to have a little extra preparation for Metagross when you use this mon instead of Swampert, but I also think that is often a bit overstated. I rate all the common sets, they all can checkmate games in different ways.
My advice to those who don't vibe with this mon is to stop trying to use it on balance (think Forre/Pert/Bliss/SuitTar type teams) and instead use it either as a more fast-paced spiker that messes with Skarm and has Explosion (think Gengar + other offense mons type teams) or on much fatter teams paired with a second spinner and/or with HP Ghost + Aroma (think ABR type teams or HClat VapKou). Admittedly, the balance type Forre squads do still match up pretty well into SkarmDol stuff, though less so with ThiefSkarm becoming super popular on those teams.
Still mostly only fits on one type of team (random SubPass stuff here and there notwithstanding), but said teams are classic and I do especially rate them with the recent Forre update that really helps turn the Claydol matchup around. BP+Roar is my personal usual preferred set just because I feel it gives the most ease of use.
Again, very similar to Jolt in that it only fits on one type of team (not at all a believer in offensive sets or MiloMag teams really), but said teams are classic and very strong. In Milo's case it actually is competing for the role on these teams though. In fact, personally I usually prefer the Suicune + AromaBliss configurations to the Milotic + CMBliss configurations but they're kind of different teams that do different things really. You have to respect this mon when building any offense.
Just a super threatening late-gamer that is also maybe more splashable than previously thought. KouBliss is a great pairing because if Bliss gets trapped by Dug early game it will have to take damage to do so and then it can't safely trap Raikou later, or if you have your own Dug and the opposing Dug used Beat Up on Bliss you can countertrap it. This all also means you can play your Bliss more recklessly than you might otherwise and it opens up your possible Bliss sets too. Meanwhile, Raikou still checks all of Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie, Gengar, Suicune, and even the fire types nicely. And that's just in opposing fat or ZapDug matchups. If it's not facing that, Raikou also just does great in non-Bliss matchups anyways. Also worth mentioning this is maybe the number one mon El Classico doesn't want to face. It's just kind of a very anti-meta mon that is enjoying a lot of current trends really. Absolutely needs to be moved up to OU.
The long and short of it is that it's just an amazing breaker at lead. That also in my opinion makes it the most splashable fighter because really it can kind of fit as a +1 and lead on a lot of different offenses if you want to, especially since really it is completely self-sustaining.
Its use cases are a lot less clear than in the past with Charizard being used on spikes more and more, but of course there is something to be said about the immediacy of its power compared to Zard. Muscling through the bulky waters does feel good. You do have to respect the fact that Blissey is really the only thing that actually checks Molt long term, so in a sense any time you are not facing Blissey you should be happy to have Moltres. And if you are facing Bliss, you just have strong Bliss punishers on your team or something like TauntGar to help break it down (or just PP Stall it in the case of Superman). That all being said, Molt is probably not actually as good vs offense as you'd think because they can pivot around and unlike Zard they'll always have mons that are faster than it. Mag/Lax offenses are probably the one time where you truly are going God mode as the Molt user with the threat of Wisp. The bulk it has over Zard is also not that relevant in my opinion, though it does mean it can do Rest stuff if it wants which is something.
It has unique offensive and defensive qualities as a fighter that are to be respected. It also actually has pretty decent set variety, but honestly you will want different ones for different matchups and it's just very hard to find any kind of real consistency. This mon also probably isn't as good vs fat as it's purported to be. Even SubPunch which is meant to be the end all and be all vs these teams has not that great of breaking power and takes a long time to pay off in a sandless spikeless environment.
Admittedly, its on-paper qualities often seem to be better than they actually are in practice. But its on-paper qualities are strong. In some ways it's more consistent as a DDer than Mence even though it's weaker and slower. The types of teams it goes on often have a serious problem pivoting vs Swampert/Suicune and Gyara does this job excellently. The fact it is an extra check to Metagross is also a highly redeemable quality. SubGyara especially threatens the hell out of your standard Dug + Water + Dol teams when paired with Mag and another breaker or two. It may also have some use cases on fat teams as a mon that can compress a few roles, but this especially is probably where it is way better on-paper than actually consistently useful.
Not the easiest to fit on a team, but it's a very strong performer. Amazing vs ZapDug teams and Blissless spikes teams; really just offense in general. OffWater + Dug + Regice + MixMeta + Gengar is really just one of my all-time favorite team structures. So good. It has some similar issues to Snorlax except it gets overwhelmed even faster, and while it doesn't 2-for-1 trade like Snorlax does, it is excellent at boom trading for Dug follow-ups allowing its teammates to go wild.
I'll let others say more about this mon. I will say while its rise in usage is really attributable to a few notable names, it seems legit to me and probably here to stay. Just a very interesting mon for offense that compresses a lot of different useful roles.
This mon will likely always sit right about here. It will always have a place as the preeminent hyper offense spiker, but it doesn't have much room to grow. The fact you can always mix up the moves it uses besides Spike+Spore also helps give it a nice floor. Usually have to win multiple mindgames to have a chance vs spinners which is unfortunate, but if you like playing momentum games that are decided quickly this is the mon for you.
Like Smeargle in that it has a clear cut place in the meta. Honestly, it's probably more consistent at forcing things to happen as a Dug offense enabler than Zapdos even is (Lovely Kiss and sleep turn variance notwithstanding), and it's one of the best ways to enable weather change Snorlax/Suicune/Reversal fighter stuff too.
I respect this mon and it does have potential to be super oppressive with its sleep especially if you use it smartly. You also can opt to use it as either an early game pressure or as a mid-late gamer after its checks aren't as ready for it. I think my big problem is that it's just a very awkward mon to build with compared to the other fighters.
While it only really fits on a couple different teams, completely shutting down Claydol continues to be a very solid niche. Notably the best enabler of PP stall in the tier.
Kind of nightmarish for just about any lead Tar team to face and somewhat singlehandedly messes with SkarmBliss, so for those reasons it's a nice offense enabler. Defensive Wish sets are also much more usable than I previously reckoned.
I can't seem to really figure out actually using this mon in game, but I'm giving it a respect rank here. Its raw stats, typing, and Explosion make it a nice half check to an absolute laundry list of things which I get the appeal for. Its power is so underwhelming though and losing momentum to water types is always tough, so Registeel seems a lot more appealing to me to fulfill a similar role.
I've tried to understand this mon, but I still don't and I'm ready to give up. I'm giving it a respect rank here anyways because some people swear it's good. It's absolutely terrible as a Skarm replacement. Smeargle and even Forre also seem better as aggressive spikers. I don't think STAB Surf/Ice Beam are enough to really set it apart. Its best use cases may be partnered with Dug or Mag, so that its boom at least guarantees traps.
Much much more usable than I thought in the past. Especially great as a Forre partner as together they can keep spikes off vs Skarm (Forre sits on ToxSkarm while Donphan sits on PeckSkarm) and help each other break down Gengar. Being better than Claydol on the physical side also of course means it's a touch better vs stuff like Tar, Meta, Aero. Still, it's only fitting on a pretty limited number of teams and Claydol's boom is a huge thing to give up.
Think it has more clear use cases than Hariyama as a Knock Off user since it's more obvious what its strengths and weaknesses are. Kind of tricky to use since it doesn't actually 1v1 many things and is threatened by a large percentage of the best mons in the tier, but it's got good traits.
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Gonna talk about these together since they're a similar story. Ludicolo may have slightly more use cases due to the utility of Leech Seed, but Kingdra has a little more upside as a sweeper. Generally don't really think they're super worth using as they need a lot of support/a lot of legwork to get to where they can win, but Rain sweepers do absolutely demolish teams with stuff like Zap or Jolt as their primary special checks.
Knock Off user that owns Claydol and does quite well into physical offense (also one of the only mons that truly owns Medicham), which all makes for a pretty obviously solid niche for fat. Unfortunately, outside of those matchups it is a bit deadweight/waiting to die.
Has some unique traits as a breaker that also actually punishes Wisp clicks which is cool. Overall still a bit hard to actually justify over the other fighters.
This mon truly has fallen all the way off, but it technically still can enable some specific teams. Might be worth exploring some wacky ways to try to punish fat with it.
Biggest momentum loser of all time, but Charmbreon especially is probably something worth bringing from time to time if you're a stall lord that wants to keep people honest.
Happy VR Season, everyone!!
Yes, I am a Skarm 1 believer now. Technically, you can certainly still argue that sand is more warping than spikes, but it's close and reasonable people could disagree. Regardless, this mon is clearly the top consideration when building any ADV OU team. Every team and basically every set is designed around limiting it, unless you're using Mag which is obviously just another thing you use to limit Skarm. Even Skarm itself has started spamming Thief sets which aim to either limit opposing Skarm or limit opposing Skarm mitigation (spinners). During Jimvitational, I legit started to feel like if you don't use Skarm, you are kind of immediately nerfing yourself. At the very least, Skarm is just so much easier to use/more stress free in every way than other strategies. Spikeless offenses have to do so much planning in sequencing, whereas every Skarm team's matchups are so much easier to understand and pilot.
To talk briefly about sets, the one I will still use the most is Spike/Roar/Peck/Protect, as it's just the easiest to fit and does Skarm's main jobs well. ToxTect is great in the very very rare cases you can actually use it but I don't see good reason to not be aware of/sell the matchups vs all of Gengar, RefDol, and Forre. So yeah it's just immensely hard to fit. ToxPeck splits the difference and is kind of the best set for the purpose of being a set that aims to beat all the spinners, but I still see it more as a set you necessarily use rather than one you want to use. I don't believe in Taunt anymore because Thief does a better job of winning spike wars long term, and if you're a fast paced offense team I believe it's better to just have a team that wants to play a 3 up vs 3 up scenario, especially since again Taunt won't limit opposing spikes long term anyways. Yolo has also come back in a big way and is worth mentioning for sure, though I would say the only use case that has really clicked is using it with Milo/Cune + Dug, more on that in this excellent post by johnnyg2 talking about McMeghan's SPL Tiebreak team if you're not familiar.
Should have a lot less to say about this mon. Thank God for sand of course. BKCTar has probably fallen off too much in my eyes, it's still the best at absolutely breaking open Bliss teams. Even Dug/Dol/Milo teams can get put in very awkward positions, but SubPunch sets are admittedly better vs those teams. I do think DD should probably always be used instead of it on spikeless though. Pursuit also of course occupies a unique spot in the meta and is probably another S Tier set.
Not much to say here, it's just the biggest posterchild for offense and makes so many teams go. Really pretty endless utility both offensively and defensively and will have something to offer in every matchup, especially since it's the best Explosion user. Agility probably the most splashable set. I used to hate mixed sets but PsyFire is good on Dug offenses at least.
Similar to Metagross in that it just has immense utility both offensively and defensively. A lot less upside offensively than Metagross obviously, but also much more unique in its defensive profile. I will say sometimes it's kind of an awkward mon when fitting it on teams because it's usually at its best with spikes, but Pert spikes teams often can get overwhelmed by opposing spikes teams. Pairing it with the spinners doesn't really work because if you're using Claydol, you'll use a different water instead, and Starmie + Pert is similarly a bit awkward (though there are more use cases for this). I also really don't care for Forre + Pert mid-paced balances at all. The other option to help the opposing spikes weakness is to use Flygon instead. So yeah, it's really limited to more offensive spikes teams, which admittedly is fine since many of these teams are some of the best teams in the game. I recently have enjoyed using offensive 3 attacks + Refresh on these teams, as it does a really great job of limiting SkarmBliss and comes with the bonus of being a Pert that can switch into Tar turn 1 without sacrificing too much momentum
Only reason I hesitate somewhat to rank this mon this high is that it fits on a more limited number of teams (only with spikes or with Dug), but the teams it goes on are excellent and Gengar performs amazingly on said teams. I do value the fact it can make every matchup playable like nothing else. Some of the more recent fat builds have admittedly had some smart ways to mitigate the Gengar matchup a bit more than they had in the past, but in a vacuum Taunt+Wisp is still one of the most threatening things these teams can face. Still amazing vs MagOff, still hard for any team to stop it from making progress in general, missing Wisp notwithstanding. The downsides are its moves are pretty weak (though Modest helps...) and the fact once it has taken any damage its utility is diminished a ton.
To be honest, I actually do kind of agree with those that feel that this mon is not as overwhelmingly powerful as it should be on paper. I just think I simply cannot ever rate it any lower than about here just for the fact that it can and does fit on literally every type of team in the meta.
This actually seems a little too high to me, but I do feel it clearly should be above everything below it, so I suppose it's correct. Honestly think its set versatility is actually a touch overrated. I find myself just using CM, especially SuperRachi, more than anything. That said, Wish is admittedly a nightmare for a lot of teams and can also enable lots of stuff. It's also another mon that can find itself on all sorts of different types of teams which, like Zapdos, gets my respect on a VR. I will say Registeel seems to have encroached on this mon's territory a little more than it has on even Metagross.
I think this ranking can be justified just on the fact that this mon really is among the more warping aspects of the tier. It would probably be even higher, but in general I think the classical ZapDug offenses are not very good at all. On the offensive end of the spectrum, I'm a much bigger fan of JynxDug or teams with multiple boomers to set up the Dug trap instead of using the fat chungus Dug that goes all in on the Bliss trap when she's at full health. Dug is obviously great at simplifying game states, which is something I value a lot, and just the sheer number of mons that Dug threatens to forcibly remove with little or no chip is of course very strong.
This is probably gonna be a lower ranking than most, So I guess I need to explain it. Obviously, I still value its place in the tier highly, I mean I'm still putting it top 9 after all. It is one of the top things you consider when building, which is the big justification for Skarm #1. I just think the main thing is that its viability is hugely tied to Skarm (much moreso than even say Gengar). Obviously, they are just a good pairing, but Skarm makes Bliss go much much much more than Bliss makes Skarm go. Also it does mandate more support in my opinion than other mons at this level of viability rather than being singularly good on its own. It does cede a lot of momentum to opposing Skarm, physical threats, and even just CMers. I think it absolutely needs to be paired with Dug, Mag, Flygon, or a spinner. Of course, if it does get this support it is just straight up the only mon that can do what it does and the teams it actually fits on are some of the most reliable teams in the tier. Another positive about Bliss is that it actually does have a surprising amount of set versatility. TWave + Aroma seems like the most consistently strong set to me. All that said, I think it is also worth saying that a lot of really good players flat out do not use this mon that much and they still find great success. Ranking this mon anywhere between like 3rd and 18th is probably justifiable to me.
Not much to add here. I suspect I will be a tiny bit higher on this mon than some, but that's fine. It's a cleaner, revenge killer, breaker all in one. In a sense, Aero spikes are kind of the default playstyle since Aero is the fastest mon that also gets to use an item that makes it stronger, so if the opponent is not prepared for it, they will just lose. Of course because of that fact, that indeed means every well constructed team will be built with Aero in mind at least to some extent, which is kind of a downside to using it. That fact that Aero is considered so strongly when building is something I value in a VR though, as I've mentioned. Despite the downsides, it is still fantastic against many offenses and against many fatter builds as well.
This has always been sort of a hard mon to rank for me, I think in large part because its game-to-game performance feels to be a bit all over the place. Sometimes Leech + spikes are just really oppressive, but sometimes it doesn't really get anything going. BP sets will also flop a good percentage of the time. Everyone knows the defensive sets are maybe the biggest hax magnets in the tier, but when it avoids hax it's kind of the only mon that can check things in the way it does. Of course, Celebi can also enable all sorts of offensive strategies both with and without spikes and that's probably where it has the highest ceiling. As an offensive threat itself, I feel it's usually somewhat underwhelming.
Honestly, I used to rate this mon even more highly, but I do feel like the more offensive Dol teams have fallen off a fair bit in recent times. Also the fact I actually view Donphan as viable now has hurt a tiny bit. Still, it occupies a very unique place in the metagame. It Is the best/only thing that can do exactly what it does, and the teams it goes on are among the most consistently good teams in the tier.
This mon still has pretty awesome and unique utility, but I do think its use cases have suffered a fair bit with Charizard actually being used more and more on spikes teams. Obviously they're different, but Zard is a better breaker, gives an extra check to Metagross, checks the pixies better, and switches into fighting types reliably just as many times as Mence. Mence does have higher upside as a cleaner though as vs a lot of teams once you make one aggressive move the game can be broken open in an unrecoverable way. Also, unlike Zard, Mence gives an extra pivot vs physical Tyranitars which is a huge point in its favor. DD is always touch-and-go for me but people messing around with sets like Sub, DDMix, and the infamous PenguinMence have been a nice little boost for it. CBMence should probably make a comeback considering some of the most popular teams currently; I just don't love the teams it ends up on, but maybe there's room for creativity in that regard.
Of course Mag teams will never reliably beat Skarm teams, but still it's just the ultimate game state simplifier which is something I personally value a ton to say nothing for the enabling in the teambuilder. People often have nasty things to say about SkarmMag teams, but I think you can kind of pick-and-choose what you want to leave them weak to and then you can have some pretty strong matchups elsewhere, so I think they're quite worth using.
Tricky mon to rank. The classic criticisms of the teams it goes on are still fair, even when pairing it with things trying to mitigate it from getting overwhelmed (Celebi, Regice, Zap, CalmCune, Jolt, etc). Its role on spikeless/dugless teams is invaluable though. It's the strongest trader in the tier and gonna get key things done in any game where it's not facing 3 of Tar, Skarm, Gar, Meta. So I suppose where you rank it is gonna depend on how you view those teams and how often you think it will face the aforementioned mons.
I would rank this mon even higher if I cared for DefMie at all. Just seems like that set is kind of fishing for an extremely specific team; a Skarm team where the Skarm doesn't have Toxic or Thief and is not paired with Gengar or SuitTar. Admittedly, if it does land that matchup it can dominate a game like little else. If it faces 1 out of the 3, it can get things done but has to play with so much less flexibility than Claydol does in similar matchups. If it faces 2 out of the 3, it's very likely doomed. But anyways, OffMie is fantastic. Really punishes Blissless harder than arguably anything and you also of course can pair it with Bliss punishers like SubTar or with Bliss removers e.g. boom into Dug. Surf/Beam/Recover/Spin compresses in a very elegant way too and is really pretty much just as good as DefMie in the matchups where you want DefMie.
I know I will be lower on this mon than most, but I just don't really vibe with it. I'm still putting it this high because it is a mon to respect in the builder. Although, that said, I think it's much easier to address there than people sometimes act like. I really often just prefer to use Starmie in a spot where you'd use offensive Suicune. The "Skarm Beatdown" type squads that it is key on have fallen off a bit too. It's at its best in my eyes on the fat Dug + spin + spike teams and even there it's competing for the spot with Milotic, but it definitely performs amazingly on such squads.
I believe since the initial Zard boom people have gotten a good bit better at facing this mon and limiting its breaking abilities. Its power is sometimes disappointing. Still, you have to give it a lot of props as it immediately and directly threatens a lot of the top mons in the meta and doesn't need the assistance of trapping or spikes to do it. It is pretty unique in that regard and is the number one mon that can make spikeless/trapless teams go. It's got some great and pretty unique utility in general, being a nuisance to Gengar possibly being its greatest trait in the builder.
Another mon that's unique in what it does as the only spike immune physical check. Will always be limited by the amount of teams it can actually fit on, but it performs exceptionally on the teams it does go on. You do need to have a little extra preparation for Metagross when you use this mon instead of Swampert, but I also think that is often a bit overstated. I rate all the common sets, they all can checkmate games in different ways.
My advice to those who don't vibe with this mon is to stop trying to use it on balance (think Forre/Pert/Bliss/SuitTar type teams) and instead use it either as a more fast-paced spiker that messes with Skarm and has Explosion (think Gengar + other offense mons type teams) or on much fatter teams paired with a second spinner and/or with HP Ghost + Aroma (think ABR type teams or HClat VapKou). Admittedly, the balance type Forre squads do still match up pretty well into SkarmDol stuff, though less so with ThiefSkarm becoming super popular on those teams.
Still mostly only fits on one type of team (random SubPass stuff here and there notwithstanding), but said teams are classic and I do especially rate them with the recent Forre update that really helps turn the Claydol matchup around. BP+Roar is my personal usual preferred set just because I feel it gives the most ease of use.
Again, very similar to Jolt in that it only fits on one type of team (not at all a believer in offensive sets or MiloMag teams really), but said teams are classic and very strong. In Milo's case it actually is competing for the role on these teams though. In fact, personally I usually prefer the Suicune + AromaBliss configurations to the Milotic + CMBliss configurations but they're kind of different teams that do different things really. You have to respect this mon when building any offense.
Just a super threatening late-gamer that is also maybe more splashable than previously thought. KouBliss is a great pairing because if Bliss gets trapped by Dug early game it will have to take damage to do so and then it can't safely trap Raikou later, or if you have your own Dug and the opposing Dug used Beat Up on Bliss you can countertrap it. This all also means you can play your Bliss more recklessly than you might otherwise and it opens up your possible Bliss sets too. Meanwhile, Raikou still checks all of Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie, Gengar, Suicune, and even the fire types nicely. And that's just in opposing fat or ZapDug matchups. If it's not facing that, Raikou also just does great in non-Bliss matchups anyways. Also worth mentioning this is maybe the number one mon El Classico doesn't want to face. It's just kind of a very anti-meta mon that is enjoying a lot of current trends really. Absolutely needs to be moved up to OU.
The long and short of it is that it's just an amazing breaker at lead. That also in my opinion makes it the most splashable fighter because really it can kind of fit as a +1 and lead on a lot of different offenses if you want to, especially since really it is completely self-sustaining.
Its use cases are a lot less clear than in the past with Charizard being used on spikes more and more, but of course there is something to be said about the immediacy of its power compared to Zard. Muscling through the bulky waters does feel good. You do have to respect the fact that Blissey is really the only thing that actually checks Molt long term, so in a sense any time you are not facing Blissey you should be happy to have Moltres. And if you are facing Bliss, you just have strong Bliss punishers on your team or something like TauntGar to help break it down (or just PP Stall it in the case of Superman). That all being said, Molt is probably not actually as good vs offense as you'd think because they can pivot around and unlike Zard they'll always have mons that are faster than it. Mag/Lax offenses are probably the one time where you truly are going God mode as the Molt user with the threat of Wisp. The bulk it has over Zard is also not that relevant in my opinion, though it does mean it can do Rest stuff if it wants which is something.
It has unique offensive and defensive qualities as a fighter that are to be respected. It also actually has pretty decent set variety, but honestly you will want different ones for different matchups and it's just very hard to find any kind of real consistency. This mon also probably isn't as good vs fat as it's purported to be. Even SubPunch which is meant to be the end all and be all vs these teams has not that great of breaking power and takes a long time to pay off in a sandless spikeless environment.
Admittedly, its on-paper qualities often seem to be better than they actually are in practice. But its on-paper qualities are strong. In some ways it's more consistent as a DDer than Mence even though it's weaker and slower. The types of teams it goes on often have a serious problem pivoting vs Swampert/Suicune and Gyara does this job excellently. The fact it is an extra check to Metagross is also a highly redeemable quality. SubGyara especially threatens the hell out of your standard Dug + Water + Dol teams when paired with Mag and another breaker or two. It may also have some use cases on fat teams as a mon that can compress a few roles, but this especially is probably where it is way better on-paper than actually consistently useful.
Not the easiest to fit on a team, but it's a very strong performer. Amazing vs ZapDug teams and Blissless spikes teams; really just offense in general. OffWater + Dug + Regice + MixMeta + Gengar is really just one of my all-time favorite team structures. So good. It has some similar issues to Snorlax except it gets overwhelmed even faster, and while it doesn't 2-for-1 trade like Snorlax does, it is excellent at boom trading for Dug follow-ups allowing its teammates to go wild.
I'll let others say more about this mon. I will say while its rise in usage is really attributable to a few notable names, it seems legit to me and probably here to stay. Just a very interesting mon for offense that compresses a lot of different useful roles.
This mon will likely always sit right about here. It will always have a place as the preeminent hyper offense spiker, but it doesn't have much room to grow. The fact you can always mix up the moves it uses besides Spike+Spore also helps give it a nice floor. Usually have to win multiple mindgames to have a chance vs spinners which is unfortunate, but if you like playing momentum games that are decided quickly this is the mon for you.
Like Smeargle in that it has a clear cut place in the meta. Honestly, it's probably more consistent at forcing things to happen as a Dug offense enabler than Zapdos even is (Lovely Kiss and sleep turn variance notwithstanding), and it's one of the best ways to enable weather change Snorlax/Suicune/Reversal fighter stuff too.
I respect this mon and it does have potential to be super oppressive with its sleep especially if you use it smartly. You also can opt to use it as either an early game pressure or as a mid-late gamer after its checks aren't as ready for it. I think my big problem is that it's just a very awkward mon to build with compared to the other fighters.
While it only really fits on a couple different teams, completely shutting down Claydol continues to be a very solid niche. Notably the best enabler of PP stall in the tier.
Kind of nightmarish for just about any lead Tar team to face and somewhat singlehandedly messes with SkarmBliss, so for those reasons it's a nice offense enabler. Defensive Wish sets are also much more usable than I previously reckoned.
I can't seem to really figure out actually using this mon in game, but I'm giving it a respect rank here. Its raw stats, typing, and Explosion make it a nice half check to an absolute laundry list of things which I get the appeal for. Its power is so underwhelming though and losing momentum to water types is always tough, so Registeel seems a lot more appealing to me to fulfill a similar role.
I've tried to understand this mon, but I still don't and I'm ready to give up. I'm giving it a respect rank here anyways because some people swear it's good. It's absolutely terrible as a Skarm replacement. Smeargle and even Forre also seem better as aggressive spikers. I don't think STAB Surf/Ice Beam are enough to really set it apart. Its best use cases may be partnered with Dug or Mag, so that its boom at least guarantees traps.
Much much more usable than I thought in the past. Especially great as a Forre partner as together they can keep spikes off vs Skarm (Forre sits on ToxSkarm while Donphan sits on PeckSkarm) and help each other break down Gengar. Being better than Claydol on the physical side also of course means it's a touch better vs stuff like Tar, Meta, Aero. Still, it's only fitting on a pretty limited number of teams and Claydol's boom is a huge thing to give up.
Think it has more clear use cases than Hariyama as a Knock Off user since it's more obvious what its strengths and weaknesses are. Kind of tricky to use since it doesn't actually 1v1 many things and is threatened by a large percentage of the best mons in the tier, but it's got good traits.
Gonna talk about these together since they're a similar story. Ludicolo may have slightly more use cases due to the utility of Leech Seed, but Kingdra has a little more upside as a sweeper. Generally don't really think they're super worth using as they need a lot of support/a lot of legwork to get to where they can win, but Rain sweepers do absolutely demolish teams with stuff like Zap or Jolt as their primary special checks.
Knock Off user that owns Claydol and does quite well into physical offense (also one of the only mons that truly owns Medicham), which all makes for a pretty obviously solid niche for fat. Unfortunately, outside of those matchups it is a bit deadweight/waiting to die.
Has some unique traits as a breaker that also actually punishes Wisp clicks which is cool. Overall still a bit hard to actually justify over the other fighters.
This mon truly has fallen all the way off, but it technically still can enable some specific teams. Might be worth exploring some wacky ways to try to punish fat with it.
Biggest momentum loser of all time, but Charmbreon especially is probably something worth bringing from time to time if you're a stall lord that wants to keep people honest.
Happy VR Season, everyone!!
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Speedpass actually affects Special offense the worse I think, special sweepers enjoy speed more than the physical ones outside of the exception that is Marowak (Ursaring isnt viable at all). Phys off doesnt enjoy speedpass all that much, it still was a nice tool to help beating down opp ZapAero Spikes though. I expect Zap to actually fall off and if u realize on ppl who have been talking abt VRs lately, most of the ppl who dont use agipass are a bit down on Zapdos as a whole, not being a overwhelming force. Thats because Zap was always best (at least outside of Spikes) as a support type of mon. Anyway I just want to put that tangent there and I will do my own VR post soon. Still bummed out by the Speedpass ban but I did what I could!I haven’t had a chance to post here in a while but I think it’s time we start having a conversation about some of the placement changes that some Pokémon might see going forward with the new VR and the SpeedPass ban. I expect that playing games on the ladder should be more enjoyable with SpeedPass gone and tournaments should have slightly less cheese to deal with. I think SpeedPass created a lot of unhealthy interactions in the metagame and I do not feel bad for Ninjask players.
Zapdos is the main Pokémon I think is going to take a hit in the post-SpeedPass metagame, but it’s still a unanimous Top 10 threat in the tier with a decent case for Top 5. Dry Passing remains intact for it, and fundamentally SpeedPass being gone doesn’t do much to change Zapdos’s strong special game. As strong as SpeedPass was, its removal doesn’t change very many of Zapdos’s own matchups at the moment. It may be interesting later down the line to see if Agility + Roar variants rise in usage but this specific combination was already lesser seen with SpeedPass in the tier anyways and the main use I could see this combo having would be against opposing boosters with maximum Sp. Atk.
Jirachi’s place in the old, existing VR seems somewhat out-of-date to me. For a while Jirachi was placing as high as 6th in top ladder every month for almost a year straight, and in tournament play there’s all kinds of stuff you can do with this thing. Pre-nerf Steel/Psychic typing will never not be unironically goated, and I struggle to see how something this versatile isn’t seeing more arguments in favor of a genuine Top 5 placement. It’s rarely going to be the best Pokémon for whatever job you want it to do, but it sometimes is outright and even when it’s not it can still make progress against both faster and slower teams. It’s also one of the best paralysis spreaders in the tier, which may be useful information for slower breakers that were previously known for being SpeedPass recipients.
After falling off for me for a decent while due to ADV’s strong physical metagame and general tendency towards passivity, I think the metagame could start favoring Blissey again at the top levels of play. With SpeedPass gone, physical offense could become somewhat limited to Aerodactyl and Dragon Dance sweepers, both of which Blissey at least has tools for, whereas special attackers shouldn’t be as negatively impacted by the ban by comparison. 252 Sp. Atk variants should continue seeing success across the board, and less aggressive utility variants could see some use at facilitating win conditions depending on how the metagame develops over the next few months. Right now I’d say Blissey’s no lower than Top 10 for me but not as high as the other two Pokémon I’ve discussed.
Now, this one’s pretty interesting, because on the whole I think the metagame has gotten at least decently good at worst at taking Medicham and the other Fighting-Types into account. Medicham sees use as a faster alternative to Breloom and powerful wallbreaker that can run either Choice Band sets or the occasional Bulk Up to decent success. That said, I don’t think the SpeedPass ban is going to be kind to this Pokémon, specifically for lower level players- like myself, lol- that are either new and trying to learn the game for the first time or are looking for the most broken things possible. Behind Speed boosts, Medicham used to be able to threaten to clean up entire games, but it won’t be able to do this as effectively anymore, and on top of not having the greatest defensive utility for teams in the world, I worry that Medicham’s specificity may keep it away from a wider variety of teams going forward. Even strong breakers usually need to be able to bring something to teams defensively if they can’t threaten to sweep as easily.
*Disclaimer: I'm bad at the game and I pay next to zero attention to tournament results, so I'm skewed entirely to the ladder. I acknowledge ladder is only one aspect of viability rankings, but I don't have anything meaningful or interesting to contribute with regards to tournament results.
Based on naive analysis of ladder results from the index of stats, it seems like Aerodactyl has been on the team that reached the highest GXE for every single month this year, with Jirachi in a relatively close second (See right most column in image below) :
For comparison, here's a multi-year view of the same type of calculations ( I don't remember the exact range of dates):
This is my stance on the tier as a whole:
* I think pert is underrated because it is easy to overlook how valuable a "glue" Pokémon really is, as well as its versatility in sets..
* I kind of stopped overthinking after B+, if anything in B is egregiously wrong.
Other thoughts:
- Sub CM Rachi with ice punch (and t-bolt) steals games, as noted in a team-sharing post by Padeli. I've also seen really good players use it on teams they like, like eternallywandering (According to team-sharing post, see "Stellar Odyssey" paste), Mead and, iirc, the ladderer "malhae mwohae", who has put up amazing results. Also, when paired with a leech seeder, it can stop a fair amount of setup, gaining you some tempo from a forced switch.
- My largely uninformed view on team archetype rankings is basically this:
TSS Balance / Offense > V5 (including V5-esque stuff) & El-Classico Styles > Mag-Lax-Mence Teams & Pursuit Tar Teams > Superman
(I'm terrible with Zapdos, so I didn't include Zap-Dug. Zapdos is clearly good, it just sometimes feels lacking to me, probably because I haven't learned enough of the mind games with Zap)
Post Updates:
- Updated explanation for Sub CM Rachi with links.
- Removed part about registeel, as it wasn't too relevant.
Based on naive analysis of ladder results from the index of stats, it seems like Aerodactyl has been on the team that reached the highest GXE for every single month this year, with Jirachi in a relatively close second (See right most column in image below) :
For comparison, here's a multi-year view of the same type of calculations ( I don't remember the exact range of dates):
This is my stance on the tier as a whole:
* I think pert is underrated because it is easy to overlook how valuable a "glue" Pokémon really is, as well as its versatility in sets..
* I kind of stopped overthinking after B+, if anything in B is egregiously wrong.
Other thoughts:
- Sub CM Rachi with ice punch (and t-bolt) steals games, as noted in a team-sharing post by Padeli. I've also seen really good players use it on teams they like, like eternallywandering (According to team-sharing post, see "Stellar Odyssey" paste), Mead and, iirc, the ladderer "malhae mwohae", who has put up amazing results. Also, when paired with a leech seeder, it can stop a fair amount of setup, gaining you some tempo from a forced switch.
- My largely uninformed view on team archetype rankings is basically this:
TSS Balance / Offense > V5 (including V5-esque stuff) & El-Classico Styles > Mag-Lax-Mence Teams & Pursuit Tar Teams > Superman
(I'm terrible with Zapdos, so I didn't include Zap-Dug. Zapdos is clearly good, it just sometimes feels lacking to me, probably because I haven't learned enough of the mind games with Zap)
Post Updates:
- Updated explanation for Sub CM Rachi with links.
- Removed part about registeel, as it wasn't too relevant.
Attachments
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Pooball official viability ranking
based on 0 statistics
hitmontop is a secret op character if u can unlock him; try your best
please refer to the above post for better analysis
all speed pass stuff is probly lower except zap especially vape
based on 0 statistics
hitmontop is a secret op character if u can unlock him; try your best
please refer to the above post for better analysis
all speed pass stuff is probly lower except zap especially vape
Attachments
Considering I haven't posted in here in about 4 years, I decided that now is a great time to share my thoughts.
I noticed its pursuit variant has been seeing less and less usage every year, I think it's related to how impactful not having the right coverage can be because of how polarized todays metagame is. DD Rest is underrated and should be used more
I'm not buying thief Skarm yet; taunt and protect, although less impactful in the long term, still are the preferred options
mixed defense protect Metagross can be extremely annoying to face, just like Meteor EQ Toxic Boom (unfortunately, it is true neither can do a damn thing against stall). CB Meta still king.
fatty is getting stronger by the minute. I'm glad we have kind of moved past the slap random CM on it era. Sing and Counter could be great moves to add to more offensive Blissey squads.
this guy isn't as useless on spikeless offense as some guys want to make u think, as long as you have explosion, will-o-wisp, hypnosis or destiny bond, you'll be able to make progress in every MU no matter what.
its restalk variant isn't what it used to be, you can't afford to lose momentum as often as rest sleep talk tbolt roar does in the mixoff - Claydol Blissey Skarm hardstall era. Rest Subs or Rest HP Grass/toxic Zapdos are waaaay better sets.
I've been using a wish modest 3atk set for some time now (max HP - max SpA), it's awesome as a half wall while also providing some insane coverage with psychic, fire punch and hp grass. It can 1v1 cmless Blissey
theoretically, it should be able to 6-0 most squads, or at least that's what I've been thinking for years. It's never able to perform to its highest because of 1) how much support it needs 2) certain sets that excel at dealing with offense or fat can be dead weight in the wrong MUs. Best of both worlds variants are not bad but I find them lackluster at best sometimes.
there's no doubt these 2 are the face of 2025 adv. Although I'm not entirely sure who was the first to discover them, it's undeniable they got here to stay for a long time. Rest Raikou is really really strong and TW Counter Registeel always finds ways to get the job done.
Forre big 5 isn't as good as it was in the past, I wouldn't use it in tour games unless I consider myself much better or more experienced that my opponent. However, where it can really shine, is in Forre-Claydol or Forre-Starmie teams where it only has one job: getting. them. up. Zap Cannon is absurdly strong when it lands, while HP Fire can undoubtedly wear Skarmory down or destroy other Forretress which is massive in Forretress mirrors.
Wish really gets this guy to the next level. I've used it on spikeless/offense teams as a half wall without much trouble because it's nice SpD (95) will let him take 2-3 hits of pretty much anything (tbolt hp grass-ice wish substitute/tw is what I run)I hope to see you all again next SPL
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As someone who discovered and began using Registeel independently from the big names (see my latest RMT) I think you’re overrating it a bit. Registeel is definitely a good and viable pokemon, but it’s also extremely extremely niche and pretty passive. The role it fills on lead zapdos teams (compressing rock resist and electric check that doesn’t lose to hidden power into one slot) is extremely valuable but it’s also able to be replicated by better overall Pokemon for most squads. That being said registeel does consistently pull his weightView attachment 768790
Considering I haven't posted in here in about 4 years, I decided that now is a great time to share my thoughts.
I hope to see you all again next SPL
This my first time submitting a VR and Im sure i have some unusual placements here but this really falls in line with a mix of my usage and what i like to use/respect in the builder. Not gonna go over every Mon here.
Truly the 1A and 1B of the tier both are outstanding! Goes without saying sand and spikes are the most warping things in ADV. Tyranitar's versatility lets it fit on really everything. Its DD sets are the most threatening sweeper/breaker in the tier with a variety of options. Mixed and Pursuit sets fit nicely on both spikes and spikeless builds and sub sets are kinda having big renaissance. I still like BKC tar for builds where i need a Blissey punish and all in one check for the pixies and kou. Skarmory is by far the best spiker, I often find it hard to even justify using a different spiker regardless of the pace of the team. Taunt, Theif and Yolo have all been very popular and i feel are really strong into alot of current trends and off course nothing beats classic Pro Tox/Peck sets. Beating Skarm is literally the focus of most teams gameplans and In my opinion Tyranitar + Skarmory teams are by far the best i the metagame.
Offensive Pert spikes teams are my favorite to play. Hydro pump with investment really puts a dent in skarm and the Refresh 3 attack sets really let you cheat vs certain matchups particularly superman. End Pert has seen a surge in popularity on both spikes and spikeless builds, in large part due to Fruhdazi and Giraffe, with both roar and toxic being used to facilitate endeavor. I think its really strong and its a very natural partner alongside more aggressive Metagross sets and the very in fashion Registeel. Its Defensive sets are classic and are still easily the best solo rock resist in the tier. Metagross is a Staple on offense. I've grown really fond of its Mixed sets I think they do a pretty a nice job at consistently limiting layers and luring boom targets. CB remains the most devasting breaker in the tier mag withstanding and agil is really easy to fit on basically any team spikes or spikeless.
In my opinion by far the best Flier in the tier. Obviously being the best spinblocker availble in ADV is a great trait to have but it’s also a user of arguably the toughest move to switch into in the tier: Will o Wisp. Taunt sets destroy fat builds and Modest Giga drain sets are really great with Claydol everywhere. Checking Snorlax and Salamence are also huge boons for Gengar and along with boom also lets it fit nicely on spikeless teams. Gengar + Dug Special Offense has restored my faith in the archetype giving much easier lines to trap bliss that don't worry about an Ice beam crit or freeze while also adding a crucial normal resist for Lax and boom momentum reset.
Not much to say except its a damn good pokemon. Fits on basically everything and one of the best spikes abusers in the tier if not the best.
The ban to speed pass may have nerfed it a little but honestly its so good i think it deserves this ranking regardless. It has a decent amount of variety between its hidden power and status options as well as good utility with baton pass and roar. Mixed sets are solid especially into Skamory celebi teams but overall alot more niche. Rest sets still can solo unprepared teams and have a solid place.
Probably my favorite mon to use in ADV. Mixed sets are outstanding on spikes but outclassed by charizard on spikeless however it has one of the most spamable midgrounds in the tier in dragon claw and unmatched coverage. Ive been enjoying different options such as wish rock slide and refresh on mixed sets they really allow it to support better and check otherwise problematic mons. DD Sets are truly why im so fond of mence. DD brick break sets in particular i think are very strong and are easy to support with other set up Pokemon like DD Tar or Cm rachi. It Can run refresh or sub to beat mono waters and tox jirachi or fire blast to pressure skarm. Even Fly less Mence is seeing a decent amount of use and as a breaker i think it has a lot of merit.
One of the most fun to use yet frustrating to face mons in ADV. It has so many viable and good sets its hard to keep count howver i think its Super and Sub CM sets are particularly good. Defensive Jirachi is maybe the toughest pokemon to break despite the rise of refresh earthquake swampert and must be accounted for when building offense while slam sets are basically mandatory on any para spam team. Its Mixed sets too i think have a lot of merit and even more room for exploration.
You might think this is low but I see Bliss as kind of a necessary evil in ADV. It doesn't really fit on that many styles and is big momentum sink for spinless spikes teams limiting my usage of it. However Blissey is really strong when supported well and is obviously the best all around wall in the tier being a honestly a pretty solid physical wall checking Salamence and spreading status. Calm mind is also quite strong and despite its flaws lets bliss curbstomp some offense teams. It being spike weak and not fitting as flawlessly on spinless is my main reason for this ranking though i want to stress i think its very good still and often use those very same teams lol
I view these two as somewhat similar in function albeit with very different strengths. Aero + Tar is one of the most lethal Duos in ADV and aero Limits alot of spikeless offense like no other pokemon bar maybe dug. Aero Is mostly relegated to spikes however i think the multiple CBer Aero spikeless teams are actually pretty good and could use more exploration. Dugtrio enables some of the strongest teams in ADV bring crucial to stall teams and many spikeless offenses. Both of these pokemon must be accounted for when building basically any team except some superman.
Best spinner easily, fits on a surprising amount of team styles being a crucial part of both stall and boom spam. Somewhat weak and passive without exploding however and with the rise in the various skarmory sets like Peck + Tox, Taunt + Tox and Thief it can be tough to keep off layers vs Skarmory all the time. Not to mention Forre can threaten Claydol directly with Hidden power Bug. Still Claydol is very splash able and by far the best hazard control ADV has to offer.
Theres a Suicune set that beats every team in ADV is a sentiment that i find is mostly true but in reality Suicune is quite manageable in my opinion. rest variants can take a while to ramp up and have really hard time vs leech seed celebi. Offensive sets can cleave through alot of really common teams but far short vs the very common blissey and Sub sets lack immediate power and suffer from a crippling sand weakness. all this to say i do think Suicune is very strong just not the top 5 mon the boomers thought it was. Still Suicune remains one of the most important threats to account for when building and every team must have a gameplan vs it.
I used to think it was an easy top 10 Pokemon but I dont find myself using it as much these days. i don't believe its strong enough solo as a special check and its spikes teams have a lot of glaring flaws. Celebi shines best in my opinion paired alongside Blissey or Snorlax and it opens up alot more utility if paired with Mag. Leech remains amongst the toughest moves to switch into and really is only blanked by opposing Celebi. It'll always have a solid presence in the tier.
I’m well known as a Zard spammer at this point. I think it’s really strong in the current meta. No other Mon is as strong into skarmory and Blissey in my opinion. It enables and entire team style in mix offense and is really strong paired with spikes. There’s also a surprising amount of versatility in its sets and options like overheat and hp ice have a lot of surprise value breaking common pivots.
Despite its flaws its role as an offensive pivot into special threats is hard to replace. I think its weakness into skarmory is often a little over exaggerated with a bevy a different ways to make progress through skarm with punch curse boom and even niche stuff like fire blast. Counter sets have really impressed me with the consistent value they bring to mixed offense particularly paired with dd tar or Mence.
This Pokemon is made for my playstyle. It has its weakness cough cough Claydol however I think there’s plenty of ways to improve the overall team matchup into dol especially when paired with giga drain gar or boom gar keeping dol low and unable to use jolt as a spin opportunity. I strongly feel it’s best spiker is still skarmory though I do really like the forretress takes we’ve seen recently they help a lot with jolts usual issues.
Yes I think it deserves this high and honestly why haven’t we bumped this up to ou yet? I’ve made the case for it already and I stand by that. One of the most trendy Pokemon of the year so far and I think it’s here to stay. It’s just great into a lot very common styles. I do wonder if with speed pass now gone we may see more dug and my opinion might change slightly. However I think despite that possibility it has a legit place in the meta.
The Old adage that Steel is a 2nd Metagross I think it’s mostly misleading. Yes it shares the steel typing and boom but in my opinion it’s much more similar to lax while also soft checking half of the meta. One of the best para spreaders and all around walls I think this also has an argument for OU status though not as strong a case as kou. It’s also been very trendy and I think it’s not just a fad it’s likely also here to stay.
Both a hair below Heracross for me around this point in my VR think the pokemon are all fairly close in strength and viability. I tend to prefer loom because of the power of sleep and Mach insurance vs tar but medi is maybe the most instantly threatening pokemon in the tier and is an excellent lead. I think loom is held back big time by a want for pursuit help and medi limited in effectiveness outside of its lead niche.
Regice is somewhat just inferior to both Lax and Steel as an offensive pivot. However stab ice beam is incredibly hard to switch into and it’s a good spreader of status. Rock has really solid bulk letting it take basically any hit even any strong special attacks. I value it most when I want snorlax check without running sand.
Doom isn’t very reliable in its roles however it offers great utility in wisp and beat up and role compression as suit + Blissey removal thst is often hard to fit or spread between multiple pokemon. I found success with in in a limited capacity but I plan to explore it more with different varieties of mixed offense in the future. Vap is really strong with how common tar lead is it’s very easy to get an early jump on the common Skarm + Blissey cores that accompany tar. Nerfed by speed pass ban a bit but I still think it’s sub pass sets are really strong and a great facilitator for offense. Jynx feels the most boom or bust Mon in ADV to me, really consistent for weather clear teams at trading into tar it also has games where it just runs away with the game at lead. Stab beam is no joke and calm mind can sweep the unprepared especially after a timely freeze. A lot of the time however it really is just a sack into tar for dug trap slot and while that’s decent think it’s not a very strong team style or gameplan overall.
Theres a few honorable mentions I didn’t list or rank but I think have merit namely ; Umbreon, Quagsire and P2 amongst others but I either don’t use them often or don’t think the niche they provide is all that important generally
Not much to add about these mons. Everyone knows they are great. I have like 30 different tar sets in my boxes and they are all pretty good. Sand is love sand is life. Skarm is skarm, the best spiker and one of the best walls in the game. I have been really liking thief and yolo skarm lately for their ability to singlehandedly run through fat, but the classic sets are also good. Tox tect is the only one that I'm not a big fan of -- it just needs too much support to function in my view.
I value swampert here because A) endeavor pert is very very good on offense and B) defpert, along with defgon and donphan, is one of the only things that can confidently check ddtar repeatedly/without risking hax.
This is one of the only spots in the tier list where I am deviating from my actual usage. I don't use a ton of blissey as a jank offense merchant, at least relative to some players. Of course, it tends to be passive, allows setup, allows scary breakers in. But the upsides in terms of hard walling most of the tier and soft checking another quarter with twave or ice beam cannot be overstated. Aside from the classic structures, Blissey on offense is probably underrated. I've built a few teams I like with it on both spikeless and spikes offense and would like to explore it more.
These are all obviously very different mons, but they all sorta fit into the strong progress maker AND great defensive value buckets. This is a of course, a very strong combo of traits and makes them far easier to fit than alternatives that lean a lot more heavily in one direction. I don't have a ton else to say about them.
These mons bring heavy offensive firepower but a bit less defensively than the 5 above. They are still extremely good though. Aero speed control is super valuable and it has an unparalleled ability to just get there sometimes. I largely only like it on spikes though. DDMence is a lot frailer and usually requires a turn of setup but it also brings higher upside. Often the two can be swapped when building. Mixmence is fine but it lacks power without spikes and is sorta hard to fit with spikes.
The most controversial mon remaining after the death of jask. I'm probably a bit lower on it than most. Dug special offense is kinda bad in my view. Dug fat is great of course (though personally I don't think it is especially overbearing on the meta), but limited. Aerodug spikeless and dug boomspam are both cool and seeing a bit of a resurgence lately.
Another strange grouping, but I think of these as the consistently inconsistent mons of ADV. Sometimes they will go crazy and more or less win by themselves, other times they will be useless and get haxxed. For me, B tier is built for mons like this, good undoubtedly extremely viable mons that nevertheless are not near the consistency of their A and S counterparts.
A few words on starmie, my fav mon. Offmie is excellent at ripping apart teams without a bliss. As many know I like to lead it with mystic water to get the process of nuking those teams going quickly. But of course the more classic back offmie teams still hold up decently. Fitting recover on offmie (either by dropping spin and having a dol/other spinner or by dropping tbolt) is a new trend that is also pretty cool - the extra longevity and outs to stall out bliss / other fat is nice. Defmie is somehow even less consistent than offmie but also great when it's great. Twave is broken.
Good mons that I can't win with and therefore am rating low out of spite.
I'm a fan of mag, especially when deployed with subterfuge (aka, not I lead meta, switch to lax t2 vs zap, then switch to mag when skarm comes in). It has immensely high upside on spinless if you can get a mag double into hitting the range. Magspin is a bit of a fish but when it hits it hits. Mag balances in general are probably a bit underated.
Probably the biggest reach of the VR, but I believe registeel is firmly OU, fueled by its fit on offensive teams. Its main advantage is being a role compression of Meta and Lax (two mons that obviously are super common on offense). Like Meta, it heals in sand, deters aero from locking rock slide, beats down skarm/pert, enables intim pivots vs ddtar. Like lax, it spreads para, switches in to most special attackers (notably it is one of the best zap switches) and can use counter to trade with enemy meta/pert. Like both of them it is a bulky trading piece without recovery but that can soft check a ton of the metagame and trade up. Of course, it also has its flaws, notably its weakness to tauntwisp gar (tho neither lax nor meta love gar either), weakness to 101 hp sub users, and weakness to zard.
Going to just include some select mons from C tier and below:
Good on superman. Personally I run it more on offensive double trapper teams. Monogon with max speed and sub tect tox is highly underrated and a real demon of a mon at times.
Have recently become breloom pilled. sub liechi ghost punch is a cool set ran by Fakes in JI. Think in general I tend to prefer it suitless with a way to hit gar
Nerfed by the speedpass ban, but still quite a good mon. I have very high smeargle usage (10%). IMO the key to using it successfully is finding ways to mitigate the t1 variance to some extent. Reargle is an option (I recommend pairing it with a lead line that tends to bring in enemy special walls -- Smeargle is a great Bliss switch in). Ultra bulky 222 speed smeargle ev'd to live tar slides and mixmence bb is also a good option - use Salac Berry or Agility+Encore to mitigate the speed problem. Dbond Encore as pioneered by ABR is a good way to trade tar t1.
The hate has gone too far for our favorite sea serpent. Run two attacks dd gyar, it will change your life. Sub, rest, twave are all viable options. Do not run 3 attacks or taunt (In most cases).
Should be OU. Would note the rise of Raikou matchup division teams that rely less on directly supporting it with like P2 beatup dug cm spam and more focused on letting it shine in the matchups it farms and using the rest of the team to exploit the teams it doesn't. Bulky sub raikou ev'd to live CM bliss and defrachi at equal boosts can be a demon on stallier builds (esp with weather clear). Superkou is good on brainrot offense. Restkou is underrated for its ability to muscle blissey. Psych Up Roar Kou I will solve someday...
Out of respect for Johnald. Kingler unfortunately was a bridge too far.
Not a big fan of it as far as fighters go. Too reliant on gaming hard and clicking the right move in my view. For me I would have kept it in UUBL.
When speed pass was still around, I would say it was OU level. Now it is nerfed significantly, but still pretty good. A strong stab water user that Bliss cannot happily switch in on is fundamentally very strong. Defensive vaporeon also has a niche on stall of patching up weakness to monocune. Slow wish pass vap could be cool.
Most people will probably lower this further, but I still believe in marowak in a post speed pass world to some extent, mostly as a lead on hyper offense.
Was tempted to move even higher. v5 glalie dug stall/tradespam is quite good imo (unfortunately I lack the patience to pilot it). The traditional spike stack stuff is also ok, if not anything especially inspiring.
fits on superman. I think it has some potential on offense with heal bell support and pert/cune pivoting.
always thought it was mid on speed pass. but breaker ursa with FP can be cool. great blissey switch in, can pressure skarmblissgar extremely hard not fearing peck skarm nor wisp gar.
endure salac berry cloud nine is a cool pseudo speed control / cb lock punish cleaner on offense. notably triangles used it to hit 1900+ on ladder so it cant be too bad. i think it may depend too much on surprise factor though. lew has also used protect cm or fighting move duck but personally i have never gotten those to work.
saw bluesenergy using it as an antilead with salac berry surf ice beam yawn encore. it has surprisingly good calcs with its great BST. usable and could be some cool stuff to be explored with it.
saw bluesenergy using it as an antilead with salac berry surf ice beam yawn encore. it has surprisingly good calcs with its great BST. usable and could be some cool stuff to be explored with it.
Don't give Blues more reason to run it or one day I'll end up having to use it too
There are like 3 pokemon that take meaningful hits on the VR with speedpass kill
also I'm making another VR because I want to do this one correctly
Explanations for the pokemon I feel need them:
He's just the goat. Best lead in the metagame, best pokemon that knows u-turn at home, just enough of a movepool to have the variance required to be versatile, and one of the hardest pokemon to switch into in the entire tier with spikes and sand down (timid 20%+ to blissey with bolt is fucking insane in endgames).
If Zapdos is top 5 Gengar cannot be any lower for me, simple as that.
Defgon is a fucking menace if you don't have any ice moves or toxic/wisp clickers.
I'm a believer in late game Jolteon. As fast as Aerodactyl but with moves that aren't able to just be exploited with a choice lock, a second set that apparently exists in bulky wish, overall just a solid pokemon.
Celdanami has convinced me this mon has sauce even though I've never put it on a team myself
I wrote an entire rant about Gyarados on an earlier post of mine but tldr it's too weak, too slow, and the problems it sets out to solve can be solved in the builder before you even put Gyarados on a team. Bulky support Gyarados is something I do believe exists but that's not enough to keep him OU.
game 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2434582329
game 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2434586581
game 3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2434591959
Dust? No thanks, I'm on a diet.
Not since Blues vs Watermess have we seen grudge matches of this magnitude
First time posting VRs. Taking time to think harder about the individual Pokémon in the metagame is surprisingly challenging, considering much of what constitutes them has already been said a million times over. Anyway, let's get into it:
S Tier:
1st – Tyranitar:
I mean, he’s the guy you think of when you think of ADV for a reason: Cutting into most of the tier’s recovery with Sand Stream, having so much flexibility with sets and moves within sets is huge, what can I say that hasn’t been said before?
2nd – Skarmory:
Yeah, absurd physical bulk, good enough special bulk when invested, Spikes, Roar, Drill Peck and more, definitely not as flexible as most other mons, but it’s amazing at what it does, Spikes is lowkey overpowered.
3rd – Blissey:
This is slightly controversial, but I fully believe that Blissey’s capability to wall almost all of the special side of ADV while being so bulky health-wise that it can serve as an emergency physical check with Thunder wave/Counter is insane, absurdly polarizing and powerful pokemon, all while having surprising flexibility on moves: Need to heal your teammates? Wish. Need extra help vs Calm Minders? Calm Mind youself. Want to lure physical threats and eliminate them? Counter. Want to be super obnoxious? Thunder Wave. You get the point. S tier for me.
A Tier:
4th – Swampert:
I believe Swampert’s physical walling, paired with it’s threat (if you ever loaded a team weak into offwaters into an Offpert, you’ll know what I’m talking about) + the possibility of Endpert makes it better than Metagross, though not by much. Also, it’s ground typing allows it to check fires and electrics (of course, it depends on what Hidden Power they’re packing). Great Pokémon with a goated typing, nearing S tier IMO.
5th – Metagross:
A bit low compared to most other people. I think Metagross has several roles it can fullfil, but it does feel like it always wants a bit more. Agilmeta kinda hates having to choose between Lefties, which means being prone to paralysis/burn, and Lum Berry, which cuts into it’s survivability quite a bit, and also between Explosion, helping break for his team, and Rock Slide, which helps hit the flying mons such as Zap and Molt. Bulky Meta hates how it’s weak to ground moves. CBMeta can be insanely threatening, but it’s worn down with ease and can thud into certain things, not to speak of how Houdini can be inconsistent (I almost always pair CBMeta with Spin). Mixmeta is pretty good but often feels like it lacks a bit of the punch that Agilmeta/CBMeta has. Don't get me wrong, it's still an amazing Pokémon, but I feel it lacks the sauce to break into top 4.
6th - Zapdos:
Thunderbolt's strongest soldier, that thing can fire off those like no one else. Spikes immunity and great resistances help it hit the field a lot, Hidden Power choices mean you can snipe either Swampert or Salamence/Flygon (beware of being outsped, though). Good flexibility in the last 2/3 moves, between Toxic, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Rain Dance, Agility, Baton Pass, Substitute, Rest, Drill Peck, Roar and more things I'm probably forgetting about. Loves being paired with Spikes as there's nothing other than Claydol and Flygon, which hates Hidden Power Ice/Toxic, that is immune to both Thunderbolt and Spikes, meanwhile, the momentum it generates for CMPass with SubPass is massive. Almost dropped it to 7th after the SpeedPass ban, but I think Zapdos is still a massive threat.
7th - Salamence:
Speaking of flexibility, here's the pokemon that can threaten just about the whole metagame until you know what it's running. Can't speak much about WishMence since I used it like once or twice only, but MixMence forces so much damage with the overall neutral, powerful click that is Dragon Claw. Dragon Dance is also a massive threat in endgames when defensive pieces are chipped. Choice Band feels way worse, but it has it's place and also has to be respected. Of course, spikes immunity with intimidate and decent bulk is also always appreciated, notably pairing well with Metagross as physical checks.
8th - Jirachi:
Same typing as Metagross, 100 base stats across the board, Calm Mind and Serene Grace, this thing is insanely scary. DefRachi patches up the Aero matchup for so many teams while being obnoxious to face if you don't have a Dugtrio (even then, you fear paralysis), Calm Mind can choose between a myriad of coverage moves and Substitute, MixRachi can click buttons super easily, lure and severely hurt pokemon such as Tyranitar, amazing Pokémon with the potential to steal games away with Serene Grace freezes, burns and paralysis.
9th - Gengar:
Best Ghost type by a mile, pretty good spinblocker, enough stats to hit just the right ranges and live the right moves you need it to, spreads Wisps like nobody's business (75% of the time), great Blissey breaker alongside spikes, big threat until you know what moves it's running and even after that it can still be terrifying, not to mention how Normal, Fighting and Ground immunity is amazing. Having a sleugh of utility options in Wisp, Taunt, Hypnosis, Destiny Bond, Snatch and even the odd Substitute certainly helps it a ton, amazing Pokémon with a big skill ceiling.
10th - Suicune:
People seem a bit down on Suicune, but I'm still a believer. Pure Water typing, while not perfect for it, is great for checking Rocks and Grounds, has the ability to Pressure stall a bunch of moves (Giga Drain kinda sucks into it if you're not careful), very powerful STABs, Ice coverage, the odd Hidden Power coverage in Grass/Electric, access to Substitute, Rest, Roar and Sleep Talk, not to mention it's main thing: Using it's bulk to get Calm Minds going.
11th - Celebi:
Yet another mon with huuuuge flexibility, but it will always have considerable drawbacks. Leech Seed is an amazing move, of course, and Calm Minds are a good way to both be a threat and pass the boosts to something else so they also become a threat, good defensive typing that allows it to check Zapdos decently well, however, it suffers a bit of 4mss, since it loves Leech Seed, but also wants Recover to help it be a long-term check to Zapdos, but it also wants HP Fire to not let Skarmory spike for free, and it wants Psychic for STAB, Giga Drain/Hidden Power Grass for secondary stab and hitting Suicune/Swampert/Dugtrio is also great, Calm Mind also helps it be more threatening outside of super effective moves... You get the point, good mon but it always feels like it wants a bit more.
12th - Claydol:
Checks all, counters none. Best spinner in the tier by a good margin, turns out spinning is way easier when you're immune to Spikes and Sandstorm, good check to Tyranitar and Metagross due to it's STAB Earthquake. STAB Psychic also allows it to hit Gengar trying to spinblock, which is often a way for teams to lure Gengar in and kill it. Rapid Spin needs no introduction and neither does Explosion. Having the options in Shadow Ball to hit all Ghosts, Rock Slide to hit Flyers and better check Zapdos and Refresh so fatter teams can play long term with it with more ease, amazing toolkit and typing on an underwhelming but usable statline.
13th - Dugtrio:
Very polarizing mon, with some people (though it's a minority) wanting it gone. Trapping is, of course, massive, and can be used by skillful team builders and players to create great gamestates. Thankfully, I don't think that it enables anything overpowered, because I love Dug's presence in the metagame. Great mon, but it's kinda fragile, usually requires chip before trapping and/or to switch in for free (whether it be after something else faints or with a Sub BP) and can have it's Eq lock abused by mons such as SubBP Zap, Aero and DDMence.
14th - Aerodactyl:
Speaking of Aero, highest speed tier alongside Jolteon in OU (no, Jask and Electrode don't count), powerful banded DEdges hit insanely hard, while having Earthquake for any Steels not named Skarmory. Rock Slide singlehandedly inspiring the phrase "If there's an Aero, there's a way", HP Flying also being a pretty good neutral click while HP Fighting helps you be more consistent into TTar and HP Bug allows you to spinblock Claydol and Starmie if you get the switch right. Not a huge fan of SubLiechi, but it has it's uses too.
15th - Snorlax:
Big threat, great special check for more offensive teams, spreading paralysis with Body Slam is great, but it's very prone to being worn down (and Rest usually turns you into a sitting duck), also being terrified of Wisp. I do have to say that Curse Double-Edge is a pretty neat way to compress the spammable STAB power of Return with the Skarm-threatening power of Self-Destruct (shoutout to Mielke)
16th - Charizard:
Feels very similar to MixMence, but it hits harder with Fire Blast and has Blaze to hit even harder while having Focus Punch/Beat Up for Blissey. Great check for Metagross too, but the lack of Intimidate and overall lower bulk means it's worse at checking most other things defensively. Still, I think it's way too good to be B tier (also, another Pokémon that enjoys Spikes quite a bit, especially to break Suicune with HP Grass on the switch/behind a Sub)
B Tier:
17th - Starmie:
Super fast Pokémon with BoltBeam coverage, Rapid Spin, STAB Pumps, Recover, Thunder Wave, Natural Cure and decent bulk, only issue is how it thuds into special walls and is weak to Spikes if it doesn't have Recover (which it often doesn't), not much more to be said.
18th - Magneton:
Traps the second best Pokémon in the tier while also trapping CBMeta, trapping Forretress and acting as a Gengar/Mono Water check, spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave is also very neat. Great at enabling physoff and faster spikes-weak structures in general, not much else to be said.
19th - Milotic:
Milotic often feels impenetrable, not having any 4x weaknesses nor any physical weaknesses while also having Refresh to stop it from being worn down by Toxic, Recover to heal itself up, Toxic to threaten a lot of things out, Hypnosis to get turns for it's teammates, Ice Beam to snipe Salamence and other flyers trying to come into a Surf and, of course, Surf itself. However, it suffers a lot from it's passivity, often being seen as a "hax magnet" due to how long it stays on the field without threatening enough in return.
20th - Forretress:
Has great tools too in Rapid Spin, Spikes, Explosion, Counter, Earthquake for sniping Magnetons, Zap Cannon and Hidden Power Bug while having a pretty good typing, however, said typing does give it a big 4x weakness to Fire. It is also pretty liable to getting worn down by Spikes and stray attacks such as Skarmory Drill Peck and, much like Milo, feels like a "hax magnet" due to it's passivity.
21st - Flygon:
Rock type check that is immune to Ground/Spikes while being faster than Swampert and having Fire coverage, however, it also has lower bulk (80/80/80 vs 100/90/90) and less offensive firepower (100/80 vs 110/85) and lacking the Water type, usually the rock resist for Superman teams, but also fits well as a faster, more offensive Rock Check. Not bad at all, just niche and suffers from having to compete with Swampert.
22nd -
Heracross:
Extremely threatening Pokémon with the potential to end games on the spot if well-positioned. Why did I place it 22nd then? Well, it usually will lack pretty significant tools (If Salac, then it's easily worn down. If Lefties, it's easily outsped. Etc), it hates relying on 85% accurate Megahorn and 90% accurate Rock Slide and, most important of all, it's not easily put on the field, having bad bulk and resisting Bug, which is a rare type which often isn't clicked into Hera teams, Fighting, which is also rare outside of Focus Punch which will still chunk quite a lot, Grass, which is another rare-ish attacking type, Dark, another rare attacking type, and Ground, it's most relevant resistance, often clicked by mons which can also click other moves that threaten Hera a lot. If you struggle to get the Pokémon on the field, it'll get less turns threatening the opponent. However, if you can get it to work, as said, it's absurdly powerful.
23rd -
Moltres:
Recently on a downwards trend in the eyes of a lot of the community and for good reason. Sure, it hits harder than Charizard (barring Blaze-boosted fire moves), has access to Will-o-Wisp, which is huge, and access to Roar too, however, it struggles to click Will-o-Wisp into many of the physical threats it wants to hit with it/Roar in the face of setup sweepers, not to mention how much it thuds in the face of Blissey, while also having base 90 speed, leaving it slower than the plethora of base 100s in the tier (and, notably, most Tyranitars at +1 speed). However, I still respect it's threat enough to have it 23rd.
24th - Jolteon:
Shares it's amazing speed tier with Aerodactyl, great Zapdos check for faster-paced teams, hits hard enough with it's Thunderbolts to threaten stuff, has, of course, HP Grass/Ice to hit grounds, spreads Thunder Wave quite well, has BP to keep up the pressure, SubPass is a threat too, having Roar and Wish are also cool. However, it's very frail and can't heal outside of Wish (takes 2 turns) and coming into electric moves (If it's unrevealed, it'll take, at most, Spikes damage anyway, and if it's revealed then the opponent will be disincentivized to click those), so it can be worn down (especially if it's passing subs) and HATES being paralyzed/outsped (+2 Meta/Ttar and +1 Mence, mainly). Sadly, it also hates facing Claydol, a very common Pokémon in the tier.
C Tier:
25th - Raikou:
Not as fast as Jolt and the like but still sits at a great speed tier, has slightly more powerful Thunderbolts than Jolteon but with the threat of Calm Minds behind it too. Can, as always, pack HP coverage and, notably, also Crunch (helps hit Claydol, for one), while being able to run other moves such as Roar and Substitute too, scary cleaner that can end up struggling if it has the wrong HP choice or if it's facing a Dugtrio.
26th- Medicham:
I'll say that I was higher on it a bit before it rose to OU, however, it's a bit too prediction-reliant and frail to really be too much higher. I still think it's worthy of OU, as Huge Power Fighting STAB with alright speed is great, but it feels like it's almost only usable in the lead slot.
27th-
Cloyster:
Spiker that doesn't get trapped by Mag, usually also gets to either Spin or Boom (rarely both) in a game and has actual offensive presence with Surf/Ice Beam, not bad but has terrible special bulk and quite a few physical weaknesses, which may make it hard to get it onto the field. Not a bad mon though, just usually fits offensive teams better.
28th - Registeel:
Mono Steel with 80/150/150 bulk, access to SToss, TWave, Boom, Earthquake and more, great way to have a special check that also checks a lot of physical Pokémon when your team needs it (like if you're running EndPert), definitely worthy of OU IMO.
29th - Breloom:
I was once a hater and, to be honest, still am, but less so. Turns out 100% accurate sleep + STAB Focus Punch off of 130 base attack is kind of powerful! However, it's incredibly frail and can get goobed by good prediction/Lum users while lacking coverage outside of HP and Rock Slide.
30th - Regirock:
Mono Rock with 80/200!!!!/100 bulk and 100 attack means you'll be tanking physical hits, even super effective ones, like nobody's business. Great as a "sandless Ttar" for sandless teams. Threatens Boom really well while matching up with Ttar itself quite well due to Superpower, just an overall pretty cool Mon that's liable to being chipped/statused. I'd say it's worthy of OU but I'm not sure, this is definitely the last one in the rankings I'd consider for OU though.
31st - Regice:
Unduggable special check for those who cannot or don't want to fit Snorlax for one reason or another. Powerful Ice STAB with Tbolt coverage is really good, of course, notably being very good into Superman archetypes, but it's too easy to wear down while thudding into too many Pokémon for it to be OU.
32nd - Jynx:
Starts the game off with a sleep (75% of the time, lead Lum notwithstanding) and by getting Calm Minds going. Usually either wins or loses really fast, powerful but unreliable Pokémon. Notably, can also lure and Perishtrap Blissey for special offense.
33rd - Vaporeon:
I was originally going to rank it a bit higher, but I think the ban of speedpass hurt it a bit. Can pass 101 Subs, pass Wishes, fire off powerful Hydro Pumps (notably, more powerful than Suicune's at neutral), has Roar and Ice Beam too, still an alright mon, especially with Water Absorb owning monocune/Refpert (when paired with Sub).
34th - Gyarados:
Yes, I think Gyarados is a fraud. Harder to get going than Salamence for less firepower, gets owned by any stray Electrical hit and, sometimes, even Rock hit. Has to sacrifice it's already not great physical power (considering the lack of good STAB) if it wants to outspeed Jolteon and Aerodactyl at +1. Thuds hard into Skarmory (and don't tell me to run Taunt HP Rock. 252 Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 56-66 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO // 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 68 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Gyarados: 89-105 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery). I never respect it in the builder and IDR ever being punished by it. His DD Rest sets may have potential and it does check Fighters quite well, but I don't think it has a place among the OU Pokémon.
35th -
Machamp:
Bulky fighter that has access to Low Kick and Guts, alright Rock/Normal check, though it's easily worn down. Very similar to Hariyama but it gets the edge for me due to having slightly higher attack, Low Kick and better defenses. Bulk Up is also scary, of course
36th -
Hariyama:
Compared to Machamp, it has to use Cross Chop over Low Kick, meaning lower accuracy, but it also gets access to Thick Fat if it wants to ditch Guts, has way more HP (switches into SToss better) and, of course, Knock Off, the best move that barely anything gets in ADV.
37th -
Kingdra:
Is the main face of Rain Offense, hits absurdly hard on Rain with STAB and gets outsped by nothing. Outside of Rain, though, Kingdra's a bum. Heavily stallable with Blissey/Protect. Not having any weaknesses outside of Dragon is neat though!
38th -
Misdreavus:
Ground immune Ghost that isn't weak to Psychic! Neat! Really good in that one ABR Superman, mediocre everywhere else.
Won't talk about anything below C (I already lack experience in using some of the lower C stuff, let alone D and E, besides, the post would get even longer), just wanted to say I originally also had Smeargle, Ninjask and Marowak there before the Speedpass ban.
S Tier:
1st –
Tyranitar:I mean, he’s the guy you think of when you think of ADV for a reason: Cutting into most of the tier’s recovery with Sand Stream, having so much flexibility with sets and moves within sets is huge, what can I say that hasn’t been said before?
2nd –
Skarmory:Yeah, absurd physical bulk, good enough special bulk when invested, Spikes, Roar, Drill Peck and more, definitely not as flexible as most other mons, but it’s amazing at what it does, Spikes is lowkey overpowered.
3rd –
Blissey:This is slightly controversial, but I fully believe that Blissey’s capability to wall almost all of the special side of ADV while being so bulky health-wise that it can serve as an emergency physical check with Thunder wave/Counter is insane, absurdly polarizing and powerful pokemon, all while having surprising flexibility on moves: Need to heal your teammates? Wish. Need extra help vs Calm Minders? Calm Mind youself. Want to lure physical threats and eliminate them? Counter. Want to be super obnoxious? Thunder Wave. You get the point. S tier for me.
A Tier:
4th –
Swampert:I believe Swampert’s physical walling, paired with it’s threat (if you ever loaded a team weak into offwaters into an Offpert, you’ll know what I’m talking about) + the possibility of Endpert makes it better than Metagross, though not by much. Also, it’s ground typing allows it to check fires and electrics (of course, it depends on what Hidden Power they’re packing). Great Pokémon with a goated typing, nearing S tier IMO.
5th –
Metagross:A bit low compared to most other people. I think Metagross has several roles it can fullfil, but it does feel like it always wants a bit more. Agilmeta kinda hates having to choose between Lefties, which means being prone to paralysis/burn, and Lum Berry, which cuts into it’s survivability quite a bit, and also between Explosion, helping break for his team, and Rock Slide, which helps hit the flying mons such as Zap and Molt. Bulky Meta hates how it’s weak to ground moves. CBMeta can be insanely threatening, but it’s worn down with ease and can thud into certain things, not to speak of how Houdini can be inconsistent (I almost always pair CBMeta with Spin). Mixmeta is pretty good but often feels like it lacks a bit of the punch that Agilmeta/CBMeta has. Don't get me wrong, it's still an amazing Pokémon, but I feel it lacks the sauce to break into top 4.
6th -
Zapdos: Thunderbolt's strongest soldier, that thing can fire off those like no one else. Spikes immunity and great resistances help it hit the field a lot, Hidden Power choices mean you can snipe either Swampert or Salamence/Flygon (beware of being outsped, though). Good flexibility in the last 2/3 moves, between Toxic, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Rain Dance, Agility, Baton Pass, Substitute, Rest, Drill Peck, Roar and more things I'm probably forgetting about. Loves being paired with Spikes as there's nothing other than Claydol and Flygon, which hates Hidden Power Ice/Toxic, that is immune to both Thunderbolt and Spikes, meanwhile, the momentum it generates for CMPass with SubPass is massive. Almost dropped it to 7th after the SpeedPass ban, but I think Zapdos is still a massive threat.
7th -
Salamence:Speaking of flexibility, here's the pokemon that can threaten just about the whole metagame until you know what it's running. Can't speak much about WishMence since I used it like once or twice only, but MixMence forces so much damage with the overall neutral, powerful click that is Dragon Claw. Dragon Dance is also a massive threat in endgames when defensive pieces are chipped. Choice Band feels way worse, but it has it's place and also has to be respected. Of course, spikes immunity with intimidate and decent bulk is also always appreciated, notably pairing well with Metagross as physical checks.
8th -
Jirachi:Same typing as Metagross, 100 base stats across the board, Calm Mind and Serene Grace, this thing is insanely scary. DefRachi patches up the Aero matchup for so many teams while being obnoxious to face if you don't have a Dugtrio (even then, you fear paralysis), Calm Mind can choose between a myriad of coverage moves and Substitute, MixRachi can click buttons super easily, lure and severely hurt pokemon such as Tyranitar, amazing Pokémon with the potential to steal games away with Serene Grace freezes, burns and paralysis.
9th -
Gengar:Best Ghost type by a mile, pretty good spinblocker, enough stats to hit just the right ranges and live the right moves you need it to, spreads Wisps like nobody's business (75% of the time), great Blissey breaker alongside spikes, big threat until you know what moves it's running and even after that it can still be terrifying, not to mention how Normal, Fighting and Ground immunity is amazing. Having a sleugh of utility options in Wisp, Taunt, Hypnosis, Destiny Bond, Snatch and even the odd Substitute certainly helps it a ton, amazing Pokémon with a big skill ceiling.
10th -
Suicune:People seem a bit down on Suicune, but I'm still a believer. Pure Water typing, while not perfect for it, is great for checking Rocks and Grounds, has the ability to Pressure stall a bunch of moves (Giga Drain kinda sucks into it if you're not careful), very powerful STABs, Ice coverage, the odd Hidden Power coverage in Grass/Electric, access to Substitute, Rest, Roar and Sleep Talk, not to mention it's main thing: Using it's bulk to get Calm Minds going.
11th -
Celebi:Yet another mon with huuuuge flexibility, but it will always have considerable drawbacks. Leech Seed is an amazing move, of course, and Calm Minds are a good way to both be a threat and pass the boosts to something else so they also become a threat, good defensive typing that allows it to check Zapdos decently well, however, it suffers a bit of 4mss, since it loves Leech Seed, but also wants Recover to help it be a long-term check to Zapdos, but it also wants HP Fire to not let Skarmory spike for free, and it wants Psychic for STAB, Giga Drain/Hidden Power Grass for secondary stab and hitting Suicune/Swampert/Dugtrio is also great, Calm Mind also helps it be more threatening outside of super effective moves... You get the point, good mon but it always feels like it wants a bit more.
12th -
Claydol:Checks all, counters none. Best spinner in the tier by a good margin, turns out spinning is way easier when you're immune to Spikes and Sandstorm, good check to Tyranitar and Metagross due to it's STAB Earthquake. STAB Psychic also allows it to hit Gengar trying to spinblock, which is often a way for teams to lure Gengar in and kill it. Rapid Spin needs no introduction and neither does Explosion. Having the options in Shadow Ball to hit all Ghosts, Rock Slide to hit Flyers and better check Zapdos and Refresh so fatter teams can play long term with it with more ease, amazing toolkit and typing on an underwhelming but usable statline.
13th -
Dugtrio:Very polarizing mon, with some people (though it's a minority) wanting it gone. Trapping is, of course, massive, and can be used by skillful team builders and players to create great gamestates. Thankfully, I don't think that it enables anything overpowered, because I love Dug's presence in the metagame. Great mon, but it's kinda fragile, usually requires chip before trapping and/or to switch in for free (whether it be after something else faints or with a Sub BP) and can have it's Eq lock abused by mons such as SubBP Zap, Aero and DDMence.
14th -
Aerodactyl:Speaking of Aero, highest speed tier alongside Jolteon in OU (no, Jask and Electrode don't count), powerful banded DEdges hit insanely hard, while having Earthquake for any Steels not named Skarmory. Rock Slide singlehandedly inspiring the phrase "If there's an Aero, there's a way", HP Flying also being a pretty good neutral click while HP Fighting helps you be more consistent into TTar and HP Bug allows you to spinblock Claydol and Starmie if you get the switch right. Not a huge fan of SubLiechi, but it has it's uses too.
15th -
Snorlax:Big threat, great special check for more offensive teams, spreading paralysis with Body Slam is great, but it's very prone to being worn down (and Rest usually turns you into a sitting duck), also being terrified of Wisp. I do have to say that Curse Double-Edge is a pretty neat way to compress the spammable STAB power of Return with the Skarm-threatening power of Self-Destruct (shoutout to Mielke)
16th -
Charizard:Feels very similar to MixMence, but it hits harder with Fire Blast and has Blaze to hit even harder while having Focus Punch/Beat Up for Blissey. Great check for Metagross too, but the lack of Intimidate and overall lower bulk means it's worse at checking most other things defensively. Still, I think it's way too good to be B tier (also, another Pokémon that enjoys Spikes quite a bit, especially to break Suicune with HP Grass on the switch/behind a Sub)
B Tier:
17th -
Starmie:Super fast Pokémon with BoltBeam coverage, Rapid Spin, STAB Pumps, Recover, Thunder Wave, Natural Cure and decent bulk, only issue is how it thuds into special walls and is weak to Spikes if it doesn't have Recover (which it often doesn't), not much more to be said.
18th -
Magneton:Traps the second best Pokémon in the tier while also trapping CBMeta, trapping Forretress and acting as a Gengar/Mono Water check, spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave is also very neat. Great at enabling physoff and faster spikes-weak structures in general, not much else to be said.
19th -
Milotic:Milotic often feels impenetrable, not having any 4x weaknesses nor any physical weaknesses while also having Refresh to stop it from being worn down by Toxic, Recover to heal itself up, Toxic to threaten a lot of things out, Hypnosis to get turns for it's teammates, Ice Beam to snipe Salamence and other flyers trying to come into a Surf and, of course, Surf itself. However, it suffers a lot from it's passivity, often being seen as a "hax magnet" due to how long it stays on the field without threatening enough in return.
20th -
Forretress:Has great tools too in Rapid Spin, Spikes, Explosion, Counter, Earthquake for sniping Magnetons, Zap Cannon and Hidden Power Bug while having a pretty good typing, however, said typing does give it a big 4x weakness to Fire. It is also pretty liable to getting worn down by Spikes and stray attacks such as Skarmory Drill Peck and, much like Milo, feels like a "hax magnet" due to it's passivity.
21st -
Flygon:Rock type check that is immune to Ground/Spikes while being faster than Swampert and having Fire coverage, however, it also has lower bulk (80/80/80 vs 100/90/90) and less offensive firepower (100/80 vs 110/85) and lacking the Water type, usually the rock resist for Superman teams, but also fits well as a faster, more offensive Rock Check. Not bad at all, just niche and suffers from having to compete with Swampert.
22nd -
Heracross:Extremely threatening Pokémon with the potential to end games on the spot if well-positioned. Why did I place it 22nd then? Well, it usually will lack pretty significant tools (If Salac, then it's easily worn down. If Lefties, it's easily outsped. Etc), it hates relying on 85% accurate Megahorn and 90% accurate Rock Slide and, most important of all, it's not easily put on the field, having bad bulk and resisting Bug, which is a rare type which often isn't clicked into Hera teams, Fighting, which is also rare outside of Focus Punch which will still chunk quite a lot, Grass, which is another rare-ish attacking type, Dark, another rare attacking type, and Ground, it's most relevant resistance, often clicked by mons which can also click other moves that threaten Hera a lot. If you struggle to get the Pokémon on the field, it'll get less turns threatening the opponent. However, if you can get it to work, as said, it's absurdly powerful.
23rd -
Moltres:Recently on a downwards trend in the eyes of a lot of the community and for good reason. Sure, it hits harder than Charizard (barring Blaze-boosted fire moves), has access to Will-o-Wisp, which is huge, and access to Roar too, however, it struggles to click Will-o-Wisp into many of the physical threats it wants to hit with it/Roar in the face of setup sweepers, not to mention how much it thuds in the face of Blissey, while also having base 90 speed, leaving it slower than the plethora of base 100s in the tier (and, notably, most Tyranitars at +1 speed). However, I still respect it's threat enough to have it 23rd.
24th -
Jolteon:Shares it's amazing speed tier with Aerodactyl, great Zapdos check for faster-paced teams, hits hard enough with it's Thunderbolts to threaten stuff, has, of course, HP Grass/Ice to hit grounds, spreads Thunder Wave quite well, has BP to keep up the pressure, SubPass is a threat too, having Roar and Wish are also cool. However, it's very frail and can't heal outside of Wish (takes 2 turns) and coming into electric moves (If it's unrevealed, it'll take, at most, Spikes damage anyway, and if it's revealed then the opponent will be disincentivized to click those), so it can be worn down (especially if it's passing subs) and HATES being paralyzed/outsped (+2 Meta/Ttar and +1 Mence, mainly). Sadly, it also hates facing Claydol, a very common Pokémon in the tier.
C Tier:
25th -
Raikou:Not as fast as Jolt and the like but still sits at a great speed tier, has slightly more powerful Thunderbolts than Jolteon but with the threat of Calm Minds behind it too. Can, as always, pack HP coverage and, notably, also Crunch (helps hit Claydol, for one), while being able to run other moves such as Roar and Substitute too, scary cleaner that can end up struggling if it has the wrong HP choice or if it's facing a Dugtrio.
26th-
Medicham:I'll say that I was higher on it a bit before it rose to OU, however, it's a bit too prediction-reliant and frail to really be too much higher. I still think it's worthy of OU, as Huge Power Fighting STAB with alright speed is great, but it feels like it's almost only usable in the lead slot.
27th-
Cloyster:Spiker that doesn't get trapped by Mag, usually also gets to either Spin or Boom (rarely both) in a game and has actual offensive presence with Surf/Ice Beam, not bad but has terrible special bulk and quite a few physical weaknesses, which may make it hard to get it onto the field. Not a bad mon though, just usually fits offensive teams better.
28th -
Registeel:Mono Steel with 80/150/150 bulk, access to SToss, TWave, Boom, Earthquake and more, great way to have a special check that also checks a lot of physical Pokémon when your team needs it (like if you're running EndPert), definitely worthy of OU IMO.
29th -
Breloom:I was once a hater and, to be honest, still am, but less so. Turns out 100% accurate sleep + STAB Focus Punch off of 130 base attack is kind of powerful! However, it's incredibly frail and can get goobed by good prediction/Lum users while lacking coverage outside of HP and Rock Slide.
30th -
Regirock:Mono Rock with 80/200!!!!/100 bulk and 100 attack means you'll be tanking physical hits, even super effective ones, like nobody's business. Great as a "sandless Ttar" for sandless teams. Threatens Boom really well while matching up with Ttar itself quite well due to Superpower, just an overall pretty cool Mon that's liable to being chipped/statused. I'd say it's worthy of OU but I'm not sure, this is definitely the last one in the rankings I'd consider for OU though.
31st -
Regice:Unduggable special check for those who cannot or don't want to fit Snorlax for one reason or another. Powerful Ice STAB with Tbolt coverage is really good, of course, notably being very good into Superman archetypes, but it's too easy to wear down while thudding into too many Pokémon for it to be OU.
32nd -
Jynx:Starts the game off with a sleep (75% of the time, lead Lum notwithstanding) and by getting Calm Minds going. Usually either wins or loses really fast, powerful but unreliable Pokémon. Notably, can also lure and Perishtrap Blissey for special offense.
33rd -
Vaporeon:I was originally going to rank it a bit higher, but I think the ban of speedpass hurt it a bit. Can pass 101 Subs, pass Wishes, fire off powerful Hydro Pumps (notably, more powerful than Suicune's at neutral), has Roar and Ice Beam too, still an alright mon, especially with Water Absorb owning monocune/Refpert (when paired with Sub).
34th -
Gyarados:Yes, I think Gyarados is a fraud. Harder to get going than Salamence for less firepower, gets owned by any stray Electrical hit and, sometimes, even Rock hit. Has to sacrifice it's already not great physical power (considering the lack of good STAB) if it wants to outspeed Jolteon and Aerodactyl at +1. Thuds hard into Skarmory (and don't tell me to run Taunt HP Rock. 252 Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 56-66 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO // 0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 68 HP / 0 Def 30 IVs Gyarados: 89-105 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery). I never respect it in the builder and IDR ever being punished by it. His DD Rest sets may have potential and it does check Fighters quite well, but I don't think it has a place among the OU Pokémon.
35th -
Machamp:Bulky fighter that has access to Low Kick and Guts, alright Rock/Normal check, though it's easily worn down. Very similar to Hariyama but it gets the edge for me due to having slightly higher attack, Low Kick and better defenses. Bulk Up is also scary, of course
36th -
Hariyama:Compared to Machamp, it has to use Cross Chop over Low Kick, meaning lower accuracy, but it also gets access to Thick Fat if it wants to ditch Guts, has way more HP (switches into SToss better) and, of course, Knock Off, the best move that barely anything gets in ADV.
37th -
Kingdra:Is the main face of Rain Offense, hits absurdly hard on Rain with STAB and gets outsped by nothing. Outside of Rain, though, Kingdra's a bum. Heavily stallable with Blissey/Protect. Not having any weaknesses outside of Dragon is neat though!
38th -
Misdreavus:Ground immune Ghost that isn't weak to Psychic! Neat! Really good in that one ABR Superman, mediocre everywhere else.
Won't talk about anything below C (I already lack experience in using some of the lower C stuff, let alone D and E, besides, the post would get even longer), just wanted to say I originally also had Smeargle, Ninjask and Marowak there before the Speedpass ban.
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Eeveeto has not been seen since I 2-1’d him.
More related to the metagame: I’m actually coming around on Registeel being worthy of the OU title. He’s less niche than I thought he was (I don’t really interact with the wider community so I discovered him on my own in an attempt to find an electric check that both doesn’t lose to hidden power and is a rock resist) and he’s actually a pretty decent anti-lead in his own right. I’m not a curse believer but I do think that he has at least one more good set to be discovered. He’s passive but not in a completely exploitable way thanks to t wave. He’s not the bulkiest pokemon on the physical side without investment but he’s bulky enough to very often trade up with counter. He’s not a reliable fire type answer but his invested special bulk is good enough to take a non-blaze fire blast from zard or just a blast from molt straight up and t wave or get rid of a sub. He’s spikes weak but he’s also relatively easy to stack lefties turns with. When other people put their thoughts on registeel into paper and it’s not just me and my teambuilding philosophy talking, I was able to fully see the potential this mid on paper pokemon has despite kind of being outclassed by the other OU steels. He’s not the best at everything he does, but he is the best at compressing all of it into one slot and that’s valuable. I have a newfound respect for registeel that I didn’t have earlier in the year. He has thoroughly beaten the mid allegations in a way I never thought possible.
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