OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[Fablle]

why is alakazam UUBL but completely unviable in OU?

 

[adorluigi]

why is alakazam UUBL but completely unviable in OU?

uubl means too strong for UU, too unviable for OU

 

[Pheo]

Hi, I wanted to put my thoughts on the tier even if I'm not a main etc, so there will probably be some outrageous things below, sorry in advance ! And sorry if there's English mistake, I'm a Spain main.
PS: Vapicuno's document is incredible and helped me a lot to improve in the tier, vapicunoat

S

Tyranitar

My least fav mon in S tier but I have to start with him. Its ability to threaten almost every mons in the tier makes him so great, it fits in almost any structures. ofc checks exists but they always need to scout ( hpgrass for pert, crunch / hpbug? for dol, not a big fan of cune especially in early game, ok for milo ), pressuring those mons helps other wincond like ddmence or agigross there. Ofc structures with ddmence / agigross probably won't have spikes so u will have to find other ways to break through milodol but having a mon who can lure/cheap pert/dol/skarm if we speak abt mix/spe tar is cool. I also think that ddtar is a great late wincond, subpunch lead is so cool to play with aero, same with phys 4atk vs bulkier teams ( even if I strongly think that those sets needs spikes to progress ). Trapper really cool with fighting like medi/hera or ddmence, I also tried pursuit without crunch and it works pretty well bc you often expect crunch with pursuit, so you can lure more mons, for example grassfire + FP/RS/Beam.
To finish, I wanted to post 2 spread / sets which I find cool

Spreads and Sets

QUEDATE CONMIGO (Tyranitar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 176 HP / 200 SpA / 132 Spe
Rash Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rock Slide / Focus Punch / Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Fire Blast

252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 326-384 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tyranocif (Tyranitar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 176 HP / 200 SpA / 132 Spe
Rash Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Brick Break
- Pursuit
- Fire Blast

Twitch.tv/shafoffi (Tyranitar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 76 SpA / 160 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Flamethrower
- Earthquake

+1 252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Tyranitar: 334-394 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Tyranitar: 336-396 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Tyranitar: 321-378 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

160- for 177 skarm

Suicune

It's my opinion but I think that cune is the best adv mon, being able to beat almost any mon in the tier is SO crazy, even his " checks " aren't one if you have the good set, blissey ? cm resttalk or just rest ( but there's a hidden skarm heh ), def bi ? sub. leech 3atk bi ? With beam you win at the end. Zapdos ? Yea restzap can be annoying but you have beam. roardef cune is broken too, I think that hp elec cune isn't too bad if you're afraid of gyarados ( or mantine lol ). It has a defensive utility too, mence/tar/gross ( can force the trade with boomgross ), this mon is so great lol, even more if you remove sand ( hi Rain Dance ). Oh and aroma bliss + rest cune is pure evil. Agipass + Cune great too etc....

Zapdos

My fav lead, plenty of sets playable, hard to deal with OffZap ( even more if modest ) if you don't have bliss ( defbi too but you will have spikes with zap so you can pressure it ), classic bolt/grass with tw and bp awesome, being able to pressure and pivot easily, won't speak about zapdug if you want to remove bliss lol. ABR said that you will often need dug with zap but I think that it's not as mandatory as it could be, if there's a bliss you can use your zap to pivot on ur phys threat as ttar/gross/fighting. DefZap on bulky teams like zapforrypert is strong imo, being able to trade some damage with other zap lead and rest later, clears restcune, cheap bliss/bi with roar + spikes, this mon can be painful to down.
I'm a big fan of ProTox + hp ice, pressuring celebi ( even more with spikes up ), removing flygon who could stay on the supposed elec/grass zap and mence, toxic defpert ( w/e refresh ), pressuring dol, scouting cb aero / cb gross, this set works quite well. Full hp with 32 def eat +1 rs mence + sand, what a mon...
I met CB zap on the ladd ohkoing tar t1 and it wasn't as bad as I could think...

A+

Metagross

Best explosion man, cblead awesome, trading with every mon is incredible, agi late gross cool asf, protox with magneton cool too, but my fav set is bulky 3atk gross, this mon can eat everything it's so fun to play, boom if you have to trade with an annoying threat ( hi suicune ). Rock slide on boom is ok but I don't like that you can't trade with waters / curselax anymore. Gonna throw my fav spread, idk if it's already a common spread sorry if it is.

Bulky gross

Ok mais les gars (Metagross) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 196 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion

+2 252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Metagross: 307-362 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk 30 IVs Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Metagross: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk 30 IVs Choice Band Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Metagross: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
176+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Metagross: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk 30 IVs Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Metagross: 290-342 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory

Best spiker, don't have much more to say

Swampert

Big fan of pert, tankpert is incredible and in my opinion the best phys tank, even if I prefer cune for my water because suicune is suicune lol, zapforrypert teams are cool to play, suittar is kinda mandatory for gar and I don't think that zapforrycunetar is better than pert, because you play restzap, if there's cune in those teams you will have to play defcune with rest otherwise phys threat will quickly be problematic, but playing 2 rest without aroma isn't a great idea tbh, you will be overwhelmed.
Offpert cool, pressuring bliss is interesting even if you are always mie/bi walled, in this case I prefer cursepert which I find cool asf for mie/ milo/rest cune/ others pert and ofc bliss
Roar Refresh pert cool too, 1v1 skarm is always cool anyway, it's an emergency solution vs restcune too even if I'm not a big fan on tectless defpert.

Gengar

I like suittar so gar isn't a mon that I use many times but It's a strong mon asf, yeah ok you need spikes to progress ( like 80% of the tier ) but this mon is always problematic, if you have suittar you will have to be careful because a dug in the back is quite common with gengar. Otherwise this is an evil mon vs almost any structures, boom is great, maybe its best move in my opinion, ice/elec coverage wow, giga drain for pert, taunt wow def cool, I won't speak abt hypnosis player, dbond why not vs gross/tar, trapper why not too even if I think that it's viable only in specific teams.
Many spreads playable, eating ddmence, ddgyara, suittar...

Blissey

I'm a TSS/Stall hater so I don't play bliss but this mon is so great, best spewall, rk/eat mence, you can play 56 sets: counter, toxic, fck sing, aroma with rest cune/lax, cm...

Jirachi

Cool mon asf, I like its versatility, being able to play cm 3atk, cmsub ice/elec or chic/filler to win vs bliss, wishrachi is evil, eating many phys AND spe damage, poisoning every mon or fire punching steel, 1v1ing gross and pert, hard to deal with wishtoxrachi if you don't have a cleric
Superman is an awesome wincond.

A

Dugtrio

Ahhhh Dug. I was a zapdug fan but no more, I have to admit that dug is a problematic mon, you can't skip him during building, and during games you have to think before committing your ttar/gross/rachi/bi. It feels mandatory for me to play some bulks on those mons just for it. Dug spikes team are painful. It requires good skill that I probably don't have but if well played this mon is annoying.

Celebi

Appreciate Leech 3atk bi skarmtar teams, it pressures many teams, with 144 def you eat hp bug dug, if you can't pressure you can pivot easily on bliss/zap with leech. Leech pass is better to pivot but you pressure less, superbi cool too, subpass bi with mag offteams strong even if it's much easier to guess last mons, it's quite easy to play, no brain just setup.

Salamence

I like mence but I have to admit that it's not as strong as it seems to be, many teams are prepped to ddmence with beam bliss, bulky punch gar, beam dol, you need mag for skarm, bulky gross on more offensive teams, flygon teams good vs mence too, bulky tar eat +1 eq.
We have bulky mence which can eat punch gar but the loss of atk is kinda problematic for me, I feel that you can lack power.
It's a good late wincond that I always like to play if I don't put aero. Intimidate allows mence to be an emergency solution vs ddtar / other mence, you can always try to pivot.
MixMence is better against more bulkier teams and needs spikes to progress but it's a good set

A-

Claydol

Boom, good defensive utility, spin and pressure the only anti spinner if chic, good in defensive and offensive teams, can trade with almost any offensive threat, beam for mence, refresh dol cool, idk if jolly dol is a thing but outspeeding offcune could be cool in my opinion even if you do less damage to defcune.

Aerodactyl

THE rock, spikes immune, you will need to predict well with aero if you want to make some damage but if you manage to down the rock resist aero can quickly become annoying. I like subpunch tar + aero ( thanks vapicuno ), cheaping pert/gross is great.
It remains a good late wincond, outspeeding every mon, +1 tar ( unlike mence ), a good revenge killer even if I don't think you like to reveal aero early ( except abr and his aero lead ), it's always a good last solution.
Spikes is mandatory with aero, I don't think it will be able to do its job without.
Sub liechi aero is cool but it requires to commit more with your teams ( more than the band ), edgeless can be problematic if you didn't have cheap enough pert/flygon.

Snorlax

Great trader, curselax is a big threat and can be annoying for every teams ? It needs much support to do its job but well-supported this mon is a beast. If you commit the wrong mon against lax teams it can snowball quite easily, sand and spikes are a problem, boom too.
Its special bulk allows him to soft checks many mons, with boom you can trade with almost any offensive threat, if you don't have boom opponents will probably have to commit his gross/dol/other lax to down yours. Great mon.

Starmie

OffMie incredible vs offensive teams, good spinner, natural cure, with dug it can be good against more bulkier teams, with spikes bi is less a problem.
BulkyMie cool but I think that off is better, against off and def teams, skarm can't stay, you just need to remove the bliss with dug or boom gar.

B+

Magneton

Forretress

Spinner, spiker and boom, I feel like you will always need suittar but it remains a good mon, I tried hp ghost with nosuit tar but I wasn't convinced, you do less than 50 and you have to predict the gar, hp dark yea ok you do 24 lol. forrydol is cool, zap cannon annoying asf if you have skarm.
Appreciate zapforryperttar team so yea always a good choice over skarm or cloy.

Cloyster

Spiker spinner and boom, not a big fan because I prefer forry or skarm but the mon is cool, it doesn't trade as much as other trader but it's always cool to have a boom with a decent speed, it can cheap tank mons to help mons like aero ( cloygar with aero/jolt is the main structure I have with cloy lol )

B

Gyarados

Good dd user, good typing, dd taunt 1v1 peckless skarm so why not, I always prefer mence but it remains a good wincond, can setup on cune unlike mence but ada doesn't outspeed aero and jolt so I feel like you have to choose between power and speed.

Flygon

Spikes immune, rock resist, good physical tank even if I strongly prefer pert. With gon you can play spinless teams and always do your job. Gross matchup is a problem, and yea you can put moltres but moltres doesn't heal unless you play rest + aroma bliss, you can be overwhelmed quite quickly. ProTox is cool, flame for skarm why not, rock slide to be better against aero/mence/gyara if toxic isn't enough.

Raikou

Big late wincondition, a big problem for offensive teams, against bliss teams dug or gar are great partners with kou, cm rest chesto is cool because you can 1v1 bliss, cm sub ofc.
Great in special spam even if I think it can work in spikes teams

Charizard

Cool mon, can pressure with or without spikes, mixed with fp cool, hp ice for mence why not, main problem is milotic and suicune, with spikes it would be easier especially for cune but it remains a cool special mon that I like to use sometimes.

Medicham

GOAT mon, the best fighters and one of my fav lead, CB medi is incredible for me, you can pressure almost any lead, I tried jolly lead and it works well, you ohko fast zap with rock slide, if it's mixzap you outspeed, bulky zap won't stay anyway. Vs gross you can always brick break, if it's bulky gross you won't be ohkoed, cheaping gross is cool for the rest of your teams, if it's CB you cheap too. 16 evs hp allow you to eat eq dug and mmash gross. Reversal is cool too.

Milotic

Great water, walls every mixed mons, almost any physical attackers ( mence, gross, ttar pray for no flinch ), MiloDol heh, I don't use this mon because I always prefer pert or cune but it's a fantastic mon.

Jolteon

Incredible against offensive teams, zapjolt is cool asf, you will need a gar to trade with bliss but this mon can be annoying, for an offensive fan like me jolt is a big poison.

 

[GreenCatKid]

After playing the tier for a little over a year now on ladder and participating in a few tournaments, I'd like to contribute my personal VR based on what each pokemon offer to the average team before 2024 ends.

A few things to note: I have a whopping 0 notable accolades to my name nor have I ever topped ladder, I'm just a guy who just so happens to enjoy this specific tier a lot. Also if something isn't shown or mentioned, you can just assume that either 1. I don't use it enough to give it a proper rank or 2. I have used a decent bit but I don't think it's viable enough to be ranked.

As much as I try to stay as objective as possible please take everything I say with a grain of salt :)


S

- -
Still the goat for the same reasons everyone else says its the goat, sand guarantees progress is made, great stats and a great and diverse movepool to keep your opponent guessing, not much else I can really add except that I think endure salac dd sets are pretty legit :p

- -
If mash was 100% accurate, this would be #1 and maybe even ban worthy. That being said, this is the best band user in my opinion being able to delete every non ghost type from existence and a great offense glue mon and even with solid set variety and great defensive typing. AgilMeta can be a great wincon especially if you get a mash boost. Mash boosts in general are ridiculous. Also blocking intimidate from Mence is pretty epic.

- -
Tied with meta for the #2 spot. If you strapped me to a chair and held me at gun point and told me to pick between the two, as of writing this I'd probably pick Metagross because it's more versatile and can apply better offensive pressure than Swampert. Pert is still extremely top tier being the more consistent dd check and quite honestly a better defensive pivot than even Skarmory at times. Overall a great defensive Glue mon compared to meta which is a great offensive glue mon. I generally hold glue mons in very high regard which is why I rate these three so highly.


A+

- -
Best, most consistent spiker in the tier and top tier for the same reason everyone says its top tier. Only real issue I have with it is that I think compared to everything above of it, it's not nearly as applicable. That being said, this has ok set variety and still comes to a lot of teams and you still have to respect this thing in the builder, so it gets the very top of A being emblematic of the most consistent strategies in the tier.

- -
Great offensive stats, great moveset with access to S tier moves such as baton pass, roar, tw/toxic, etc and timeless typing like seriously, the fact that this has been consistently OU through out pokemons lifespan and only temporarily dropped for only one generation is a testament to how good Zapdos is just fundamentally. Good for kinda similar reasons Metagross is good, great for enabling offense except its a special attacker minus boom and not being a rock resist. Almost mandatory on superman if you hope to answer Suicune reliably. I do think spdef zap can be a decent secondary special wall to Blissey that doesn't get Dug trapped but its very hard to pilot IMO. Also PhysZap can be a good anti meta set too.


A

- -
MixMence my beloved. Honestly the real thing that I find underrated about Mence is having access to intimidate, like automatically that should be valuable to any team that needs an immediate physical check. Yes, it has that crippling ice weakness and is bad vs a lot of cm sweepers which sucks and keeps it from being really top tier, but in all honesty I don't really mind that. If you use it for what it's supposed to be good for, which is being able to check physical offence and use it's offences to apply further pressure by either forcing switches or sweeping with dd barring you are in the position to do so, It's really solid. MixMence is the best set followed by DDMence and then CBMence in that order. Honorable mention moves are Wish a my very personal fav: Refresh.

- -
adv ou's premier swiss army knife. I love using this thing so much and can see why lots of pros hold it in such high regard, lets just say there's a reason why pursuit tar is used so often. I do agree with the consensus that Gar only really fits on spikes and Dug teams so its not nearly as applicable as everything above it. Other than that, not really much else I can add about it, It's Gengar >:3

- -
adv ou players sit in two camps: You either think this is the best thing in the tier or you think It's too slow paced and way too passive and spikes/sand weak. I feel like Utility sets suffer a lot from 4 moveslot syndrome and more often than not, becomes set up fodder to any sweeper it can't hit super effectively. That being said, Bliss is by far the most consistent and self sustainable special wall in the tier and commands respect in the builder. Very decent support mon with very good support moves for its teammates in spite of its passivity and CMBliss while requiring a good amount of support is pretty underrated and a really solid wincon. Overall not as good or applicable as others may rate it but still really good and comes on a lot of defensive teams.


A-

- -
One of the funniest pokemon in the whole tier by sheer fact that you can just straight up win if your opponent can't check it fast enough. Suicunes viability as a wincon pretty much hinges on how good your opponent is at dealing with it, but what I really like about it is it's pivoting capacity and it's ability to apply offensive pressure bolstered by it's natural bulk and pure water typing. Suicune + weather clear has seen a rise in popularity which makes Suicune extremely good once sand is gone and a very legitimate strategy and wincon. not S tier as some may rate it since it can get out maneuvered easily by more competent players, but commands respecting and very solid. Also Salac Sub is legit and underrated.

- -
Gen 3 got spared of the horrors of iron head para flinch spam and we the players should be eternally grateful for it. In all seriousness Jirachi is really good as a cm sweeper and it's status spreading capabilities and access to wish and great mixed bulk. honestly this sometimes feels like a better special wall compared to Blissey with that steel/psychic typing and the far better cm sweeper thanks to sand immunity and access to substitute. On top of this, Jirachi has a really great and varied movepool which can keep your opponent guessing what set you're running and the stats to justify running mixed sets. Only big downside is that ground weakness gets far more exacerbated compared to Meta and really sucks as your only rock resist because of it. Otherwise really good as a cm sweeper and great stats and movepool. Definitely my most used set overall is defensive toxic fire punch to 1v1 the three top tiers


B+

- -
Best spinner in the tier. Can threaten Gengar, Spikes/Sand immune, solid moveset and can be a decent rock resist with ground immunity. Does kinda get owned by toxic if no refresh/rest and is way too passive if no boom so you gotta pick your poison there but otherwise pretty good.

- -
2nd best spikes abuser right behind MixMence but does have the highest base speed in the game tied with Jolteon and can really can pop off once your opponents rock resist(s) crumble. Leichi SD pass is also extremely good as well if you can pull it off. Only real downside is that this thing is frail as paper and a pain to get on the felid unlike MixMence and also very prediction heavy like most CB users are, but still a very strong and consistent endgame wincon once all the pieces are in place for you.

- -
Baton pass alone makes this literally the best and only viable grass type in the tier. Great stats, Varied moves like CM, SD, Leech seed, heal bell, perish song, sub, screens as well and a unique defensive profile that lets it stand out as a pivot with access to recover. At times isn't great at being a special wall and can be a little too passive but otherwise just another solid base 600 stat mon like rachi.

- -
Best revenge killer in the tier. People have already sung their praises for Dug and yeah, I can agree with it since it does so much for certain teams and playstyles and has especially great synergy with Gengar. I've seen people rank it wayyy higher than I think it really should be though, like at times the stuff It's supposed to eliminate are far too bulky to be ko'ed even when chipped down, and much like Aero is a pain to get on the field and honestly even easier to exploit than aero. it is a pokemon otherwise worth respecting in the builder and is a staple on V5 and Spec Off for a very good reason, I just can't realistically put it any higher than the guys above it.

- -
CurseRestLax in this day and age is a fake set to me. Now UtilityLax and Curse3Attacks? That's the good stuff right there. Great special wall alternative to Blissey for faster paced teams, Great SD pass recipient and has the most powerful boom in the tier thanks to STAB boost besides CB Meta, though after one curse it has it beat. Very strong if you use it for it's strong and agro physical capabilities, though far less consistent in taking special hits than blissey.

- -
Does one thing and does that thing pretty well. Can also be used for other thing's like clearing weather, spreading status, being a CB switch in and being a general nuisance if not dealt with soon enough. Seriously 120 special attack is no joke that's 5 points off from zapdos. Literally mandatory on every phys off team ever. A tiny bit underrated imo.


B

- -
Solid offensive spinner compared to Claydol. I think all of it's main sets are pretty good both Offensive and Defensive. Spinless sets are legit and can outright sweep entire teams. Outclassed overall by Claydol as a spinner but still has it's uses for it's offensive presence.

- -
Of the two fire/flying types I do think overall zard is the superior one. I like using this thing on spikeless mix off a lot with its very applicable SubPunch set and can be a decent spikes abuser. Hard disagree with the people that say it's better than MixMence at spikes abusing though. Also Belly Drum sets are fun but super inconsistent.

- -
Legit niche over Meta and Pert as a rock resist in being completely spike immune. Fantastic on superman teams, dare I say mandatory on them. Kinda mid offensively though haven't had a reason to use too many offensive sets recently, I mainly just use this guy for being physically fat.

- -
Bulkier than Zard and access to wisp is what sets this apart from the fire/flying mon. Great on slower paced teams at meming on physical attackers lacking rock coverage, spreading burns and phazing. If Zard embodies offense, Molt embodies defense.

- -
One of the pokemon of all time. You either think this is garbage or an underrated gem. I think personally it's aight. I like it's role compression as both a spiker and a spinner, it's typing is awesome and unique and has value over skarm as a spiker and physical wall. Add on the fact that it's way harder for Magneton to trap and properly eliminate you in one hit and you have the overall better matchup against skarmory compared to Claydol and Starmie as you don't get completely owned by toxic stall. Boom of course is really good. Zap cannon is also good but very inconsistent. With all that said, it has some problems. Forre teams without PursuitTar just suck, you get owned so badly by Gengar it's not even funny. Plus if there's no sand, you can't make good enough progress from the spikes you set. Forre very often is just set up fodder and can't run any phazing moves like Skarm does and in general, forces you to play an incredibly ridged and slow playstyle compared to all the other viable spikers in the tier. Forre also suffers a little bit from 4 moveslot syndrome, You could maybe mitigate that by running another spinner and run spinless Forre but quite honestly you may as well run Skarm at that point. Despite it's flaws, Forretress is a solid and viable pokemon and the Forre/SuitTar/Bliss/Pert Core is still really strong. Not the best but not the worst.


B-

- -
Great enabler of offense and honestly kinda slept on in general. I love it's synergy with Cloyster and it's ability to outspeed everything and spread status and pass sub to it's teammates and can even be a clutch wincon at times. Jolt does have very glaring flaws, gets dunked by any status move and lacks the same fire power Zapdos has. people should use this little guy more though imho.

- -
Very strong mixed wall and very self sufficient, Hypnosis is very legit and slept on (pun intended). Only ever comes to stall and SD pass teams. Otherwise outclassed by Pert and Cune as bulky waters.

- -
Man there are players that just haaaaaaate this guy. I like Cloyster as an agro spiker that isn't complete set up fodder and can punish greedy plays by your opponent that wanna get up a DD. I also like how it consistently threatens Claydol without making too big of a sacrifice to its moveslots as well. Fairly strong boom is always going to be good. Just don't expect it to last very long in a match from sand/spike chip and no toxic immunity. Jolt or Aero should usually be mandatory on Cloy spikes teams as well.

- -
funni hax doggo go brrrrrrrrr. Smeargle suffers from very similar issues as Cloy as a spiker, But what makes Smeargle special is the ability to learn every move in the game. This lil guy is the swiss army knife pokemon. I don't use dd pass all that much but from what I've seen it's legit. By far the more consistent set I use is spore/wisp/spikes and the last slot is usually explosion. Also decent speed tier for gen 3 standards but bad vs faster physical leads.

- -
I love this guy so much dude. If you run weather clear and you don't run Salac Hera you're seriously missing out. SubPunchHera is also a really strong and hard hitting wall breaker too that completely destroys stall. I remember someone on the revival discord server said that if Megahorn was 100% accurate, Heracross would be ban worthy and I agree with that sentiment. With that said, Megahorn is in fact not 100% accurate and is a very inconsistent wincon because of that fact. This generation isn't very nice to fighting types in general since they have very poor match ups into everything and there's no close combat, but Hera stands out to me as the best of the best out of the notable fighting types in the tier.


C

- -
Second best fighting type. I like Lum sets the most due to its higher flexibility compared to CB. Requires a lot of brain power to get working right which I sadly don't have though I like it's wall breaking capabilities a lot. could be higher after I use it more but I still think Hera is better and more applicable though but Medi is the better lead fighting type.

- -
Has legit niche over Mence as a DD user with intimidate in having the typing and stats to set up safely on the waters and access to taunt and t-wave. not bad but not great and certainly not better than DDMence overall. please just drop to uubl already.

- -
Jynx Dug teams have been making the rounds lately and I'm not gonna lie, they're pretty legit. I think perish trap with sleep is extremely effective at removing special walls. having to rely on a 75% accuracy sleep move really puts a dent in the viability though.

- -
Sooo... Yama's viability has taken a nose dive recently, and those stats from this years revival tourny don't help it either. For the record, I don't think Yama sucks, not in the slightest, knock off is always going to be inherently a good move and Yama is always going to be the best user of said move. I think Yama's trait of being able to slowly but surely dismantle Balance/Stall is something that shouldn't be underestimated. I think the big problem with Yama is that it only really gets to be good on slower paced matches, but once HO or spikeless shows up, the entire game plan for Yama teams falls apart. I do think players should aim to use it more as the tourny meta starts to gravitate towards ABR stall style team structures as Yama would really benefit knocking off leftovers on those slower paced teams. Overall, has the potential to be raised higher depending on how the meta treats it but as of now it sits here.

- -
Regice is cool (pun intended). Really thrives on more aggressive spike teams that benefit from a special wall that can fire off big fat STAB boosted ice beams, para spreading and access to boom to trade with opposing special walls. Obviously no where near as self-sufficient as Blissey and the weaknesses that snorlax had as a special wall get far more exacerbated without that toxic immunity and has the weaker boom of the two. This is as close as a regi is going to be to OU viability.

- -
Vaporeon is also cool. Players have definitely already adapted to the Vap salac lead a lot which is why I don't use it as much anymore. I do love using Vap as a wall to Suicune not running hp elec/grass and phazing it out. I also love making 101 hp subs in front of blissey and giving my teammates a free switch. Can't forget to mention that it can apply good offensive pressure on a lot of stuff with 110 base hydro pumps. I do think standard defensive sets are just Milo but kinda worse. Has a lot of other other flaws as well like no way to deal with status, but I think this has a lot of potential and should also be used more.

- -
Best alternative ghost type to Gengar. Better matchup vs Claydol not running shadow ball and defensive variants of Starmie. Really good on sandless superman teams and can completely stomp TSS teams. Lacks the same power and versatility as Gengar but still a legit and viable teammate in my books.

- -
Raikou is weird man. I see a lot of players rank this higher than a lot of the stuff above it and I have a difficult time seeing it that way. Calm mind of course makes this stand out from the other two electric types, Kou also has very good offensive stats with 115 in special attack and speed being only outsped by Dug, Aero and Jolt, and pairs really nicely with DugGar. And of course, once the conditions are just right, this can indeed win you the entire game, no doubt about that. Actually getting to that position is where I think Raikou falters. Every earthquake user under the sun is out to get you not even exclusively Dugtrio. Finding a way to eliminate Blissey and Snorlax consistently is a massive pain to do. Dugtrio obviously invalidates your entire strategy and makes P2 almost mandatory. Fast but frail CM users just mechanically don't work in this generation imho, every other user in the tier list has access to the bulk and tools needed to be able to handle physical hits, Bliss and Celebi have access to more consistent recovery moves and healing, Rachi has sand immunity and access to wish and Suicune is bulkier and has the better defensive typing granting it more opportunities to set up (Jynx is a weird exception to the rule thanks to lovely kiss access) and Raikou has absolutely none of that. There's a lot more I could rant about why building with this thing is so annoying but I'm not gonna get into all that, this entire post is already long enough. For it's faults, Raikou is still a viable option on spec off teams which is why I rank it, I'd still rather use Zapdos or Jolteon in all honesty because those 2 are way more applicable.

- -
Alright, honestly not my cup of tea, but let me explain. SubLoom sucks because you can't fit good enough coverage moves onto it and is very matchup fishy, The triple fight set gets owned by any ghost, flying or even psychic type, stun spore while probably one of its better moves is inconsistent. Is a grass type but has no way to hit water types or tbolt users that pack secondary ice coverage. This thing also just has really bad stats for what it's aiming to do as well and arguably not even the best sleep setter despite having access to a 100% accurate sleep move. The most meaningful thing I can realistically give to Breloom is access to mach punch, allowing it to pair decently with SuitTar, that's it. Doesn't really deserve as much of a long rant as Raikou because I think more people are catching on to the fact that Breloom kinda sucks. Unironically only ranked because of mach punch access, not even the main thing it's known for. Also if Breloom got poison heal in this gen it would be way cooler.



Again, this is not a definitive list and I very much expect this list to be wayyy different the more I play and the more the meta develops over time.

Thank you so much for reading and I hope you all have a happy new year <3

 

[eternallywandering]

My First VR Submission

For context, I’m currently ranked #9 on the ladder, with a peak Elo of 1800. Below are my thoughts on some over/underrated pokemon.

Overrated:​

Jolteon
It's just too frail and lacks the attacking power it needs to make an impact. The current metagame changes of increased Snorlax, Dugtrio and Claydol use doesnt favor it at all.

Breloom
It gives too many free turns to threats like Celebi and Salamence. Sleep is also unreliable, how often have you focus punched into a sleeping Skarmory, only to have it drill peck you to death after waking up early?

Cloyster
Takes too much damage from things you'd expect it to resist, like hydro pump from Swampert. You might as well use Skarm/Forre instead.

Magneton
It isnt as strong as it seems imo, even though Skarmory is a top tier threat. Teams that beat Skarmory without relying on Magneton are often more consistent.

Hariyama
Teams built around Hariyama often feel flawed and matchup fishy. In many cases, you’re better off removing it from your team entirely rather than trying to make it work.

Smeargle
Recently I have come to the conclusion that hyper offense is terrible. If you change the smeargle in any given hyper offense spikes team to a Skarmory, then it will simply be a better team. Smeargle teams are just too inconsistent at what they are trying to do (win the game in 20 turns).

Underrated:​

Ninjask.
You dont even need to pair it with Marowak. Speed passing into a special offense core (Suicune, Celebi, Zapdos, Jirachi) works very well. It’s honestly one of the most powerful pokemon in the metagame.

Marowak
Underrated mostly because Ninjask is overlooked and seen as "cheese".

Armaldo
Fills the role that Hariyama teams want, but actually does it well. Its the best knock off user in the game.

Vaporeon
Vaporeon with salac berry is one of the best leads for special offense, and I think special offense is strong right now.

Miltank
Fantastic heal bell user and can spread thunder wave, which is a ridiculously powerful status move. It's basically a less specially bulky utility Blissey that can stay in against physical threats like Tyranitar and eat a hit to t-wave the opponent back.

Raikou
Far too many teams are built in a way that leaves them vulnerable to a Raikou sweep, so I think it's underrated. Modest>Timid Raikou (It can actually 1v1 Seismic Toss Blissey).

Quagsire
Many forretress teams struggle too much against water attacks if they were to use Swampert. I think it's a good pokemon because the teams it's on are good.

Slaking
Incredible in stall teams. It forces progress and can create openings for your own stall to dominate.

 

[Magnetoso]

~ADV Viability Ranking~

Welcome to the ADV Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in ADV and what tier they should fall under.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each ADV pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

Without further ado, the list (will be edited as the discussion goes by):

S RANK

Tyranitar​

Skarmory​

A RANK

Metagross​

Swampert​

Zapdos​

Blissey​

Gengar​

Jirachi​

Salamence​

B RANK

Suicune​

Celebi​

Claydol​

Dugtrio​

Aerodactyl​

Snorlax​

Starmie​

​

C RANK

Charizard​

Magneton​

Moltres​

Forretress​

Flygon​

Milotic​

Heracross​

Jolteon​

Medicham​

​

D RANK

Cloyster​

Gyarados​

Breloom​

Smeargle​

Jynx​

Raikou​

E RANK

Hariyama​

Regice​

Registeel​

Kingdra​

Regirock​

Venusaur​

Porygon2​

Ninjask​

Vaporeon​

Misdreavus​

Marowak​

Quagsire​

Blaziken​

Weezing​

Ludicolo​

Glalie​

Machamp​

Slaking​

Camerupt​

Houndoom​

Armaldo​

Umbreon​

Miltank​

Steelix​

Donphan​

​

Of course, I expect disagreements about the spot of some of these Pokemon, but that's what the thread is for.

Rules :

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
• No flaming
• Stay objective. The fact that you love X or Y Pokemon doesn't mean it's objectivly a beast.

Happy posting!

much better than the previous VR, but I still don't understand why cloyster can be above hariyama and compartor tier with pokemon as good as brelom or heracros, literally cloyster is a worse fortress, and fortress is not that good either

 

[mrchristopherthe12]

is it just me or is salamence overrated lmao

 

[Allidoishuynh]

View attachment 705287

My First VR Submission

For context, I’m currently ranked #9 on the ladder, with a peak Elo of 1800. Below are my thoughts on some over/underrated pokemon.

Overrated:​

Jolteon
It's just too frail and lacks the attacking power it needs to make an impact. The current metagame changes of increased Snorlax, Dugtrio and Claydol use doesnt favor it at all.

Breloom
It gives too many free turns to threats like Celebi and Salamence. Sleep is also unreliable, how often have you focus punched into a sleeping Skarmory, only to have it drill peck you to death after waking up early?

Cloyster
Takes too much damage from things you'd expect it to resist, like hydro pump from Swampert. You might as well use Skarm/Forre instead.

Magneton
It isnt as strong as it seems imo, even though Skarmory is a top tier threat. Teams that beat Skarmory without relying on Magneton are often more consistent.

Hariyama
Teams built around Hariyama often feel flawed and matchup fishy. In many cases, you’re better off removing it from your team entirely rather than trying to make it work.

Smeargle
Recently I have come to the conclusion that hyper offense is terrible. If you change the smeargle in any given hyper offense spikes team to a Skarmory, then it will simply be a better team. Smeargle teams are just too inconsistent at what they are trying to do (win the game in 20 turns).

Underrated:​

Ninjask.
You dont even need to pair it with Marowak. Speed passing into a special offense core (Suicune, Celebi, Zapdos, Jirachi) works very well. It’s honestly one of the most powerful pokemon in the metagame.

Marowak
Underrated mostly because Ninjask is overlooked and seen as "cheese".

Armaldo
Fills the role that Hariyama teams want, but actually does it well. Its the best knock off user in the game.

Vaporeon
Vaporeon with salac berry is one of the best leads for special offense, and I think special offense is strong right now.

Miltank
Fantastic heal bell user and can spread thunder wave, which is a ridiculously powerful status move. It's basically a less specially bulky utility Blissey that can stay in against physical threats like Tyranitar and eat a hit to t-wave the opponent back.

Raikou
Far too many teams are built in a way that leaves them vulnerable to a Raikou sweep, so I think it's underrated. Modest>Timid Raikou (It can actually 1v1 Seismic Toss Blissey).

Quagsire
Many forretress teams struggle too much against water attacks if they were to use Swampert. I think it's a good pokemon because the teams it's on are good.

Slaking
Incredible in stall teams. It forces progress and can create openings for your own stall to dominate.

I'm specifically curious about this: Modest>Timid Raikou (It can actually 1v1 Seismic Toss Blissey)

Could you explain how that happens? I'm super curious. Might build another Raikou team just to try it out. That sounds awesome

 

[greenapricotttss]

I'm specifically curious about this: Modest>Timid Raikou (It can actually 1v1 Seismic Toss Blissey)

Could you explain how that happens? I'm super curious. Might build another Raikou team just to try it out. That sounds awesome

bruh in what world does Raikou 1v1 S-Toss Bliss?
a lot of builds are unprepared for Kou but it never beats S-Toss Bliss unless it reaches +2 before she comes in (obv need a layer or two)

ninjask is only good if your oppo isnt using roar

armaldo has a bad mu against every offensively oriented S or A ranked mon

dont take that entire post seriously, idk what OP was smoking

 

[vapicuno]

bruh in what world does Raikou 1v1 S-Toss Bliss?
a lot of builds are unprepared for Kou but it never beats S-Toss Bliss unless it reaches +2 before she comes in (obv need a layer or two)

Raikou beating Bliss happens more frequently than you think, even if Timid. Especially when sandless.

 

[greenapricotttss]

Raikou beating Bliss happens more frequently than you think, even if Timid. Especially when sandless.

it's definitely possible, I even ran the simulation in my head as to not be ignorant lol

a keen player can manage to overcome Bliss with a timely CM on the softboil, because at +2 Kou should be able to possibly 3hko Bliss even without sand
Mind you if Bliss switches in on the 1st CM, Kou will barely come out alive as they must CM on the 1st softboil to have a realistic chance of winning
so considering spikes/sand/roar, yeah it can happen
but Bliss has twave also, so not that much

I will personally zelle the person who beats Bliss with Raikou from 100%

 

[H!kari]

it's definitely possible, I even ran the simulation in my head as to not be ignorant lol

a keen player can manage to overcome Bliss with a timely CM on the softboil, because at +2 Kou should be able to possibly 3hko Bliss even without sand
Mind you if Bliss switches in on the 1st CM, Kou will barely come out alive as they must CM on the 1st softboil to have a realistic chance of winning
so considering spikes/sand/roar, yeah it can happen
but Bliss has twave also, so not that much

I will personally zelle the person who beats Bliss with Raikou from 100%

Rest Raikou can pp stall Bliss out of stoss. But that's an insane match up fish as your absurdly Dug/EQ weak will resting

 

[Jhall99]

it's definitely possible, I even ran the simulation in my head as to not be ignorant lol

a keen player can manage to overcome Bliss with a timely CM on the softboil, because at +2 Kou should be able to possibly 3hko Bliss even without sand
Mind you if Bliss switches in on the 1st CM, Kou will barely come out alive as they must CM on the 1st softboil to have a realistic chance of winning
so considering spikes/sand/roar, yeah it can happen
but Bliss has twave also, so not that much

I will personally zelle the person who beats Bliss with Raikou from 100%

I think Triangles got into a pressure war against ArcticFreeze during the ADV revival, first time I saw a heavily stall oriented Raikou spamming Rest.

 

[vapicuno]

it's definitely possible, I even ran the simulation in my head as to not be ignorant lol

a keen player can manage to overcome Bliss with a timely CM on the softboil, because at +2 Kou should be able to possibly 3hko Bliss even without sand
Mind you if Bliss switches in on the 1st CM, Kou will barely come out alive as they must CM on the 1st softboil to have a realistic chance of winning
so considering spikes/sand/roar, yeah it can happen
but Bliss has twave also, so not that much

I will personally zelle the person who beats Bliss with Raikou from 100%

The reason Raikou can overcome bliss once it is +2 or +3 is that every Thunderbolt comes with a ~16% chance of crit/para. Once Bliss gets crit or paralyzed the odds for Raikou are very high. So every time Blissey is healing about 20% on a +2 Thunderbolt (or close to 0 on +3) it is exposing itself to significant risk.

You can Zelle the many players who have beaten Blissey with Raikou already. Check out Ojama vs johnnyg2, SPL some years back.

No need to even mention rest Raikou which obviously beats Blissey.

 

[greenapricotttss]

Heeey guys, so I noticed all these hot takes on the OU VR list. So I figured "why not share my own"
I'm no run-of-the-mill ADV player either: I've easily reached top 50 on ladd, which isn't spectacular but commendable (low 1700s)
Sadly I've titled into the mid-1500's range but I will gladly smoke you :)

Anywho, lets get on with it!
Update: Everything from S to C was positioned as I thought it should, feel free to comment on someone who should rise/drop
I'm not gonna talk about every mon, only whichever I feel like

S RANK
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Swampert

A RANK
Zapdos
Blissey
Metagross
Celebi
Suicune
Salamence
Gengar
Jirachi
Starmie
Milotic

B RANK
Forretress
Aerodactyl
Claydol
Jolteon
Snorlax
Dugtrio
Magneton
Charizard

C RANK
Moltres
Heracross
Flygon
Vaporeon
Breloom
Regice
Medicham
Raikou
Blaziken

D RANK
Cloyster
Gyarados
Smeargle
Jynx
Regirock
Hariyama
Registeel
Venusaur
Porygon2
Misdreavus

E RANK
Ninjask
Ludicolo
Glalie
Weezing
Sableye
Camerupt
Houndoom
Steelix

THE HOT TAKES:
S Rank
First up it's grand daddy Pert! The real OG, holding it down since Littleroot. The first 4 gyms in Hoenn were a breeze with this guy (well Marshtomp) ahhh the memories of youth...
Pert is undoubtedly the 2nd most meta-defining mon, behind Skarm because lets be real: Tyranitar wouldn't be as good if it had no Sand Stream
What's the reason your Zapdos runs hp-grass? It's this guy!
Pert has the typing, defenses, and offense to do whatever tf he wants
The standard set is: 252 HP, 216 Def, 44 Sp Def with a Relaxed Nature. This set allows one to handily switch into Metagross, Ttar, Snorlax and most importantly "The Janitor": CB Aero...but Pert can do other things like:
Mixed Offense- usually Pert is Skarm bait but even so they wouldn't like a Pump to the face
Salac + Endev- a fringe set to (hopefully) put down Blissey's fat ass, or in truth unexpectedly outspeed and KO someone, then bring the next mon to 1 HP, the set is very customizable (this is still outsped by Timid Starmie)
Max Attack- if you really hate defensive WishRachi then get ready to shake it up with this: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Sp Atk preferably Brave
Honestly I did this for Bliss and it knocks the shit out of her (EQ does like 50% to standard CM), you can add some EVs to speed to actually outspeed her if you want, or just be Adamant. I ran Brave so Ice Beam hits Mence reasonably but don't actually use this lmao
The moves were: EQ, Foc Pun, IB/R Slide, Protect/Roar
Oh and in case you didn't know: in Gen3 the game counts any hid pwr damage as physical, so with enough Sp Def investment you can retaliate any non-STAB hp-grass with Counter for a clean ko, but don't actually try this, unless you enjoy malding

A Rank
The Queen of the Ilex Forest (is it a girl???) the enamored Celebi
To me, I feel like Bi is the center of all the commotion
The Elecs hate her, Dug wants to kidnap her, Swampert loathes her existence, and Ttar just wants to hit it one time.... with hp-bug
A lot of things are put in motion when Celebi is around to play. She generates activity and encourages prediction. Her defensive typing is astounding in good and bad ways but mostly great
Forces a TON of switches with Leech Seed, can capitalize on those switches to CM, pass it or heal status. She even got 101ssss!
I like my Celebi physically defensive: if you max out (or near it) you will definitely survive CB Dug's hp-bug. Mine was 252 HP, 220 Def, 36 Spe with a Bold nature and Dug's hp-bug did 69% (it was probably Jolly, low roll)
You can even do funny shit like 252 HP, 176 Spe w/ Timid to CM in the face of Moltres lmao, survive flamethrower, then proceed to pass (wouldn't do that unless you reeeeally need to)
Also, Offensive CM Celebi is horribly dangerous late game with that perfect coverage and Bliss out the picture
No less than A Class

A-
The pristine, serpentine beauty of the sea- Milotic
I've noticed Milo has gotten relatively low ratings on the VR and I'm often confused about that
This thing just doesn't die lmao, like you absolutely need an Elec to take this down. That or some CB mon
While the same can be said of Suicune who boasts a much higher defense, her true power lies in her suffering: Marvel Scale
Bruh if you burn this thing then CB attacks kinda don't work lmao: now you need foc pun, boosting moves, or again Elecs
Swampert is Big Homie but he can't even think to step up to Milo unless Pert has a Curse (or two) racked up
Pass this thing a CM and now Pert will not win at all, and its even hard for Elecs to switch in safely because 354 Sp Atk is nothing to scoff at
Common set is 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Spe with Bold: I like to run around 40 Spe (take from HP) just in case of Marowak
I also like to explore possibilities with Offensive Milo: 48 HP, 208 Sp Atk, 252 Spe w/ Timid (you can tweak this)
Everyone expects the slow Milo, so watch how astonished your oppo will be when Milo outspeeds bulky Bi/Zap for the KO with Ice Beam, or even give them an unpleasant surprise with Hypnosis.
Tbf, Heracross will give Milo a difficult time with that horn.
She deserves better treatment than this, you guys suck lmao. Maybe not an A mon, but High B for sure.

B+
In my opinion, Forre is a better spiker than Skarm.
Yeah sure, Skarm is flying type, better sp def, usable speed but Magneton exists. You have to run some fringe yolo shit (which is actually the name of the set, go figure) to eliminate Mag.
With Forre if you smell a Magneton, just press EQ. There, problem solved :)
Its particularly easy to predict a possible Mag encounter: Snorlax or Phys Mence is often paired with it. The braindeads who run lead Slaking probably have a Mag coming up next (sorry if that's you), the lures are usually similar
This thing loves coming into Gross, Lax, Pert, Milo-- tossing spikes ez. If you can confirm the opposing mon doesn't have a fire move (or taunt) then go ahead, toss it.
Forre can do other things! But I'm not sure if you're the adventurous type
You can run hp-bug to hit Celebi: the vast majority of them want you to come in comfortably to snipe you with hp-fire, also this can make Starmie second guess it's life
You can run zap cannon forre if you... like playing roulette, but in this case its like always picking black and watching it land on red, again, AND again...
If you hit Molt or Zard on the switch, when they ask "Who even uses Zap Cannon?" tell them "Well you didn't dodge it, skill issue."
The more glaring issue is the need for support regarding spinblocking so that might limit your teammate options
Welp, it's better than Cloy that's fs

B Rank
I know it has been explicitly stated to refrain from tiering mons simply because you "like" them.
I f%#king LOVE Jolteon!!!!!! Let me tell you why-
Personally I think the people who don't like Jolt are not using it right. I wish T-Wave procs Volt Absorb here but switching into Tbolt for 25% is sweet with how common Zap and Gar tend to be
RoarJolt is fantastic with spikes down, because Bliss just comes in every time and I just say bye-byeee (very very good if you double switch into an expected water type). You can run T-Wave/Roar + Lum to swiftly trade status and come out healthy once
It's the bpass for me tho: you can escape Dug and get a free turn because they are going to EQ
Bpass allows to retain any previous (likely CM) boosts so you can keep the chain going
Zapdos is more solid at Agipassing to be real with you
For special offense you might have better options but how can one deny the joy of retaining stat boosts
hp-ice is the better option, so you can snipe dd Mence (try to chip it prior)
Jolteon needs to be well preserved for late game antics, not even in good health but ALIVE. You already outspeed everyone.

C-
Ohhhhh man this guy is my all-time favorite.
I moved him up from E: many of you misuse him then proceed to ostracize him because you didn't optimize him.
I mean Blaziken has obvious problems, just look at it's typing. Weak to Surf, Psychic, and EQ-- yikes.
Then again it can shake the shit out of defensive cores, just look at it's typing.
"Your TSS team is a Blaziken away from getting swept." remember this
Honestly I like to run 52 Atk, 252 Sp Atk, 204 Spe with a Naive nature. (Fire Blast, hp-ice/grass, Foc Pun, Substitute) + Salac
Blaz forces switches just as easily as it's forced out. The 252 Sp Atk is to ohko Skarm with F Blast. Well Skarm won't stay in anyways so then I like to Sub. Even with the measly investment, Foc Pun can ohko Aero and will dent Milo/Pert/Cune on the switch. Blaziken is a nightmare for Offensive teams. Balance teams have to tread lightly because a misread might kill someone.
Its not all that sweet for Blaziken though. The primary issue I've had in the past was the selection of hidden power. As shown above you're hitting either Pert or Mence so one of them is gonna ruin your fun. Milotic will do that regardless of what you run. Zapdos is quite dangerous if it switches in on a resist. Oh yeah, then there's Dug.
So really Blaziken is best kept-in-the-cut for clutch moments and it really shines with Salac. Once in range you have also activated Blaze so Fire Blast should ohko Gengar and do a lot to Zap. Then it really comes down to your oppo's teambuild as to how much damage Blaziken will leave.
If you prioritize Dug removal early-on, I don't see why Blaziken wouldn't put in some work. Bpassing it Subs is highly appreciated.
BKC didn't give this guy props for nothing.

C-
Raikou has been trending lately (Vapicuno dropped that DDance Refresh Mence team as of recent)
I always knew Kou was good but Dugtrio is a subterranean piece of shit
The truth is though, if Dug only had Sand Veil then Raikou is easily B+ to A level.
So many teams cannot handle the threat of a 115 speed mon (with 115 sp atk) using calm mind. It's horribly dangerous and even if you build well I don't think much outside of Bliss can really hamper it (obv depends on your hidden power)
It beats Zap, beats Jolt :(, I mean it's a fast Elec with CM
If you look at the OU list it's really grinding through most mons but trapping is what we know best in ADV.
Having pressure is very useful, you will quickly deplete Celebi's leech seed and have the option to pp stall others if that's your flow.
But no real resists so a good physical hit will make it cower, and similarly to Jolteon if it's paralyzed it's kinda useless.

There's a few others I can mention but that's all for now.

* This was made solely for entertainment purposes.

 

[greenapricotttss]

The reason Raikou can overcome bliss once it is +2 or +3 is that every Thunderbolt comes with a ~16% chance of crit/para. Once Bliss gets crit or paralyzed the odds for Raikou are very high. So every time Blissey is healing about 20% on a +2 Thunderbolt (or close to 0 on +3) it is exposing itself to significant risk.

You can Zelle the many players who have beaten Blissey with Raikou already. Check out Ojama vs johnnyg2, SPL some years back.

No need to even mention rest Raikou which obviously beats Blissey.

I will definitely find that game, love a good replay

my friend you said "the many" but how many 1v1'ed Bliss from 100%, lmao don't play with me.
I'm very scrupulous with my money.

 

[Allidoishuynh]

I'm specifically curious about this: Modest>Timid Raikou (It can actually 1v1 Seismic Toss Blissey)

Could you explain how that happens? I'm super curious. Might build another Raikou team just to try it out. That sounds awesome

So I looked at the calc and was really surprised by how straight forward it is for CM modest Rai to trade down with Bliss when sand is up:

Turn 1: CM as bliss switches in (Rai at Max HP assuming no spikes)
Turn 2: CM vs stoss (Rai at +2 and 222 HP remaining)
Turn 3: CM vs stoss (Rai at +3 and 122 HP)
Turn 4: tbolt vs stoss (+3 252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 301-355 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery) now Rai is at 22 HP and sand does exactly 20.
Turn 5: tbolt vs stoss (Rai dies to toss it out doesn't get the 59% roll, but bliss also usually dies to sand as it can only survive if it gets hit by a combination of 2 damage rolls that only make up 6/256 possible outcomes)

If Rai has weather clear support and invests 68 EVs into HP, it can reach exactly 401 total HP after accounting for 3 turns of leftovers healing (338+21+21+21). So it could, in theory, reliably beat Bliss (even after coming into a spike post KO) by tbolting at +3 (a guaranteed 3hko even after sacrificing the spatk EV's and giving bliss leftovers recovery) with enough HP to survive 2 stosses. If bliss clicks stoss for a 4th time it dies the next turn and if it gets into a soft boiled vs tbolt war, it risks paras, crits, and giving Rai the 5 required turns to chip heal enough to take another stoss.

I must say I'm impressed by Raikou's performance in the damage calc. A calm mind sweeper that can reliably beat Zapdos, Celebi, and Blissey without sacrificing the 100 speed tier is no small feat. I'm still not super sold on it overall, but maybe I need to take another look. Maybe it could work on a Hera/dug structure to bait and ko opposing dug without having to run a Mon as bad as p2.

 

[greenapricotttss]

So I looked at the calc and was really surprised by how straight forward it is for CM modest Rai to trade down with Bliss when sand is up:

Turn 1: CM as bliss switches in (Rai at Max HP assuming no spikes)
Turn 2: CM vs stoss (Rai at +2 and 222 HP remaining)
Turn 3: CM vs stoss (Rai at +3 and 122 HP)
Turn 4: tbolt vs stoss (+3 252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 301-355 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery) now Rai is at 22 HP and sand does exactly 20.
Turn 5: tbolt vs stoss (Rai dies to toss it out doesn't get the 59% roll, but bliss also usually dies to sand as it can only survive if it gets hit by a combination of 2 damage rolls that only make up 6/256 possible outcomes)

If Rai has weather clear support and invests 68 EVs into HP, it can reach exactly 401 total HP after accounting for 3 turns of leftovers healing (338+21+21+21). So it could, in theory, reliably beat Bliss (even after coming into a spike post KO) by tbolting at +3 (a guaranteed 3hko even after sacrificing the spatk EV's and giving bliss leftovers recovery) with enough HP to survive 2 stosses. If bliss clicks stoss for a 4th time it dies the next turn and if it gets into a soft boiled vs tbolt war, it risks paras, crits, and giving Rai the 5 required turns to chip heal enough to take another stoss.

I must say I'm impressed by Raikou's performance in the damage calc. A calm mind sweeper that can reliably beat Zapdos, Celebi, and Blissey without sacrificing the 100 speed tier is no small feat. I'm still not super sold on it overall, but maybe I need to take another look. Maybe it could work on a Hera/dug structure to bait and ko opposing dug without having to run a Mon as bad as p2.

yeah my head simulation was pretty similar to this and it occurred to me that if Bliss is significantly chipped (25%) the moment it has to softboil is when its probability of winning decreases
its an awfully tense exchange and is quite literally a deathmatch
there are usually easier ways to eliminate Bliss but Kou can def eke out a wincon in that scenario with the bait and removal of Dug early-on

Kou still has Ttar, Pert, Gross, bulky Mence, and even Claydol to deal with so its not all that sweet for him
Milo literally beats them all ^ lmao, or your own Pert

 

[vapicuno]

As described here, this thread will now double as the metagame discussion thread for everything within the current ruleset. A separate thread for discussing ruleset changes i.e. bans will come out shortly - please discuss those there instead.

 

[greenapricotttss]

A Rank

Unpredictability just seethes through that cocky smile.
Gar has always been edgy, a staple in most OUs.
Levitate is just the beginning of how good it is:
Taunt- feels so skimp in ADV, only 2 turns. However, taunting Bliss prevents Softboiled and that is huge, esp with repeated switches into spikes. Forcing her (or whoever) to attack can secure a D Bond ko if they are not cautious or allow you to send in a responsive threat without fearing T-Wave
*Can someone help me build Sp Def Gar?? What are the EVs looking like?*
Boom/D Bond- These are rather different moves besides the fact you die, idk why I lumped them together. But honestly, either move is fairly splashable on just about any set you decide to run. Explosion is certainly offensively oriented and would appreciate Atk investment for some “umph”. The investment is not mandatory but be conscious that without it, it will barely exceed 50% on defensive Cune and Bi. With 110 Spe you can practically choose whom to boom on.
D Bond is more sneaky but not in such an abrupt way. With this you are likely lulling your oppo into a false sense of dominance. Works great on CM Bliss/Cune, CurseLax or any mon with dangerous coverage (that you can’t ko). D Bond can be 1-for-1 tech against SuitTar. You successfully spinblock only for your oppo to respond with Ttar to come in to trap you, Oh No! Most people just go for Pursuit right off bat but if you stayed in to D Bond that hit won’t ko Gar. The next turn is crucial, but you switch out regardless: If they use Pursuit then Ttar dies because D Bond didn’t wear off (Pursuit’s priority) but if they don’t want to sack Ttar like that then you’ve escaped. This interaction is not “good” but it’s better than just dying.
Grudge- had some hilarious outcomes with this. Like deleting CroCune’s Surf so it’s a dud. Or deleting one of CM Blissey’s attacks so she’s wallable. Same premise as D Bond but different application. But why remove one attack move when you can remove the whole mon? I won’t vouch for this yet but like D Bond this can give someone else an opportunity to set up, just in a different way.
WoW- my passion burning deep inside is something that I can’t deny: do you feel it, do you feel it? When I see that smiling face you always set my heart ablaze: I can feel it, I can feel it.
Will-o-Wisp creates opportunities for teammates that might not have been possible and puts non-sand mons on a timer. Over-reliance on it can make you set up bait for DDance or AgiGross.

Off-Gar: it’s bad but can it be good?
Run all the coverage you want. “I don’t feel safe” in front of this Gar, although with this spread I’m pretty sure you’d repeat the quotes. 216 Sp Atk, 252 Spe, 40 HP with Timid. There’s no tech for the 10 HP, this simply puts you close as possible to a lefties number without rounding up sand dmg to the next 1/16
Spinblock? Well yes, you are a ghost type. On whom? Wish I could tell you. If you manage to live, you can thank me for the 10 HP. Got spikes? Knocking ‘em dead. No spikes? Just dying trying.
Defenses are soooo bad but maybe that’s good? Uses Taunt on Blissey, next turn Ice Beam does 35%, Blissey laughs on the inside, you Taunt again but she Beams again and you lose 33%. D Bond here would be lovely, or fuck it just boom cus life is too short anyways.

How do you build your Sp Def Gar? I’m pressed for 100 Speeders so I feel the need to cruise at 332. Them defensive Gars be slow as a mf so Boom seems relatively better than D Bond. While mine is on pain meds please do provide some input, for myself and all the Gar fanatics out there.

Other moves-
Hp-grass > Giga Drain: restoring health seems attractive but with Pressure mons and Celebi everywhere the prospect is a pipe dream
Foc Pun: with abysmal Atk it doesn’t seem right but it will certainly ko Ttar, no more Suit trapping
Mean Look + P Song: you can do this (with Dug support for SuitTar) but Misdre seems like she has a better voice
Hypnosis: very effective because of whom Gar lures, try not to mald when you miss

 

[4lowray]

Hp-grass > Giga Drain: restoring health seems attractive but with Pressure mons and Celebi everywhere the prospect is a pipe dream

strictly talking about defensive gengar, i don't think the appeal of giga drain is restoring health more than being able to 1v1 some claydol and force a mind game with pursuit tyranitar. it allows you to do both of those things because of the health restoration effect, but you shouldn't pick giga drain hoping to restore your gengar's health if it's not for those two interactions, imo

 

[IllidanStr]

View attachment 705287

My First VR Submission

For context, I’m currently ranked #9 on the ladder, with a peak Elo of 1800. Below are my thoughts on some over/underrated pokemon.

​

Underrated:​

Ninjask.
You dont even need to pair it with Marowak. Speed passing into a special offense core (Suicune, Celebi, Zapdos, Jirachi) works very well. It’s honestly one of the most powerful pokemon in the metagame.

Marowak
Underrated mostly because Ninjask is overlooked and seen as "cheese".

I did take this statement seriously and I have been struggling to break to 1,500 elo barrier but some of my games are kind of a match up fish but the pairings with Suicune seems do the job of sweeping opp that lacks Blissey.
As of now I already got a a solid 5 mons that sweeps hard and I have inclined my team towards spikeless hyper offense. But my question is I still lack a 6th mon that reliably sweep and boost its attack and I am still on experimental at this stage.

PS. I do agree about Ninjask commonly overlook and only seen as "cheese" but this mon is really strong at the hands of a good player since it can end games in less than 10-15 turns.

 

[Logingemout]

I don’t want to sound like an idiot but I believe Jolteon is really good. It can sub pass consistently and dry pass on dug to Dd mence/gyra or something similar to check it and get free setup. Roar is really useful and the threat of HP grass/ice can scare out some dugtrio from coming in chipped. It also is so fast it blows through any team without a ground type or aero in the late game and vs aero it is a speed tie to win. I have a sub pass Jolteon team and even though I am not very good, I will share the team here. https://pokepast.es/71bb8806275e823c

 

[Logingemout]

Edit: Volt absorb is also very useful

 

[4lowray]

I don’t want to sound like an idiot but I believe Jolteon is really good. It can sub pass consistently and dry pass on dug to Dd mence/gyra or something similar to check it and get free setup. Roar is really useful and the threat of HP grass/ice can scare out some dugtrio from coming in chipped. It also is so fast it blows through any team without a ground type or aero in the late game and vs aero it is a speed tie to win. I have a sub pass Jolteon team and even though I am not very good, I will share the team here. https://pokepast.es/71bb8806275e823c

i haven't used jolteon all that much but from trying this team and looking at other jolteon teams, i think adding spikes would make this team much better. spikes on jolteon teams feel almost mandatory, helps pressure opposing special walls and makes jolteon's roar and baton pass much better. i would also change some of the ev spreads such as making snorlax better at sponging special attacks, making starmie outspeed timid gengar and invest more special attack on jolteon