OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion

[Logingemout]

i haven't used jolteon all that much but from trying this team and looking at other jolteon teams, i think adding spikes would make this team much better. spikes on jolteon teams feel almost mandatory, helps pressure opposing special walls and makes jolteon's roar and baton pass much better. i would also change some of the ev spreads such as making snorlax better at sponging special attacks, making starmie outspeed timid gengar and invest more special attack on jolteon

Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[McMeghan]

My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.

S-Rank

I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.


Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.


Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.

A-Rank

I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.


Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.


Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.


I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.


Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.


I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.


Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.

B-Rank

Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).


Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.


I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.


When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.


Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.


We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.


Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.


I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.


Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.

C-Rank

I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.


Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.


Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.


Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.


Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.


Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.

D-Rank

Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.


I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.


I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.


I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.


Not much to add here.


Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.


Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.


ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.

E-Rank

Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.


I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.


Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.


I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.


Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.


Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.


Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.


Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.

 

[bdt2002]

My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.

S-Rank

I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.


Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.


Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.

A-Rank

I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.


Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.


Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.


I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.


Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.


I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.


Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.

B-Rank

Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).


Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.


I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.


When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.


Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.


We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.


Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.


I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.


Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.

C-Rank

I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.


Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.


Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.


Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.


Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.


Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.

D-Rank

Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.


I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.


I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.


I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.


Not much to add here.


Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.


Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.


ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.

E-Rank

Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.


I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.


Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.


I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.


Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.


Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.


Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.


Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.

Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?



Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.



Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.



I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.

 

[Padeli]

Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?



Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.



Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.



I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.

The answer to the main question you ask in the first paragraph is yes in my opinion: I do think that some strategies/Pokémon perform slightly better for laddering while others work a little better in a tournament environment. I expect that the win rates/usage stats for specific pokemon are probably not much different. However, there are some key differences when teambuilding for trying to make a >1900 ladder run, compared to prepping vs a specific tourney opponent.

The idea is that on the ladder certain pokemon more strongly partition a teams matchups than others. This is actually desirable in tournament; for example one scouts their opponent and wants to bring something like dugtrio. Dugtrio is very strong at its job, but is complete fodder in certain MU's and becomes a major liability occasionally. This is what I mean by "dividing matchups". That phenomenon is *typically* NOT desirable when trying to make big ladder run (not always, and also here I'm assuming we are using only 1 single team for the entire run). For example, if you look at the collection of teams that have made it to 1900+, there are trends that reflect this, meaning people prefer to use strategies that have more broad flexibility instead of strong vs specific matchups. You usually want to build something that has an acceptable matchups vs anything when laddering. Of course, any team will have strong/weak matchups, but the hope is to use a team that has "smooth" matchups instead of like jagged shitty matchups sometimes and excellent matchups other times, if that makes sense. This is basically what you observed about dugtrio in your write up. I agree.

Some examples/trends amongst mega elo ladder teams (thinking of 1950+ here now): most use Ttar+Skarm, and I think about half have used at least one of gengar/aerodactyl. Also, almost all use swampert, I think 5/6 of the ones in my head do. The only real exception to this sort of trend is bluesenergy (goat). I won't type here why these are ideal strategies for the ladder, it'd be another one of my essays, people ofc know why. It's just that you want to use pokemon that are more flexible and certain pokemon/strategies are better at that than others (all relative to the ADV metagame ofc). There are definitely a handful of examples in my head of pokemon that are mildly overrated imo due to this jagged matchup thing, but again, that's not really a problem when prepping for a specific opponent.

Anyways, this is an interesting topic for me and I pretty much am only interested in studying these sorts ideas and high ladder teams in ADV, think it's a cool problem because of how balanced ADV is. My personal opinion is that "ladder viability" is more of a real indicator of how generally good a pokemon is but I think people disagree about that. Like people bring horse shit in tournaments sometimes and it's really frustrating to see, they get away with fishing MU's - ofc the preteens on ladder build trash too though. But imo the overall teambuilding for high ladder is much more solid generally and again I think those team's success is more indicative of a strong structure.

What we can say for certain at least is the intersection of S and A ranks between peoples ladder VR and tournament VR are definitely the best pokemon... the rest is just details, VR's are just like a fun collection of opinions anyways but its super interesting to me to try to like solve the puzzle and say definitively what the best strategies in gen3 are.

 

[johnnyg2]

The answer to the main question you ask in the first paragraph is yes: some strategies/Pokémon are best for laddering while others best for tournament. I expect that the win rates/usage stats for specific pokemon are probably not much different. However, there are some key differences when teambuilding for trying to make a >1900 ladder run, compared to prepping vs a specific tourney opponent.

The idea is that on the ladder certain pokemon more strongly partition a teams matchups than others. This is actually desirable in tournament; for example one scouts their opponent and wants to bring something like dugtrio. Dugtrio is very strong at its job, but is complete fodder in certain MU's and becomes a major liability occasionally. This is what I mean by "dividing matchups". That phenomenon is *typically* NOT desirable when trying to make big ladder run (not always, and also here I'm assuming we are using only 1 single team for the entire run). For example, if you look at the collection of teams that have made it to 1900+, there are trends that reflect this, meaning people prefer to use strategies that have more broad flexibility instead of strong vs specific matchups. You usually want to build something that has an acceptable matchups vs anything when laddering. Of course, any team will have strong/weak matchups, but the hope is to use a team that has "smooth" matchups instead of like jagged shitty matchups sometimes and excellent matchups other times, if that makes sense. This is basically what you observed about dugtrio in your write up. I agree.

Some examples/trends amongst mega elo ladder teams (thinking of 1950+ here now): most use Ttar+Skarm, and I think about half have used at least one of gengar/aerodactyl. Also, almost all use swampert, I think 5/6 of the ones in my head do. The only real exception to this sort of trend is bluesenergy (goat). I won't type here why these are ideal strategies for the ladder, it'd be another one of my essays, people ofc know why. It's just that you want to use pokemon that are more flexible and certain pokemon/strategies are better at that than others (all relative to the ADV metagame ofc). There are definitely a handful of examples in my head of pokemon that are mildly overrated imo due to this jagged matchup thing, but again, that's not really a problem when prepping for a specific opponent.

Anyways, this is an interesting topic for me and I pretty much am only interested in studying these sorts ideas and high ladder teams in ADV, think it's a cool problem because of how balanced ADV is. My personal opinion is that "ladder viability" is more of a real indicator of how generally good a pokemon is but I think people disagree about that. Like people bring horse shit in tournaments sometimes and it's really frustrating to see, they get away with fishing MU's - ofc the preteens on ladder build trash too though. But imo the overall teambuilding for high ladder is much more solid generally and again I think those team's success is more indicative of a strong structure.

What we can say for certain at least is the intersection of S and A ranks between peoples ladder VR and tournament VR are definitely the best pokemon...lol. The rest is just details, VR's are just like a fun collection of opinions anyways but its super interesting to me to try to like solve the puzzle and say definitively what the best strategies in gen3 are.

I wanted to push back a little here bc of how rote you describe reaching the top echelons of the ladder is. I may not be in the upper crust any more, but I’ve been laddering adv for a long time. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts on how you reached 1900+. But there are a lot of ways to do it.

I’ve reached 1900+ with dug offense. I’ve gotten there w mag offense. I went 51-0 with a combo of mix offense and cloyster. I’ve of course gotten there w tss too. I believe my all time high is like 1920s sometime in mid 2023. It would be a lot more helpful to the laddering conversation if I recorded my teams and laddering sessions but I find using one team to get high on the ladder to be boring, I use a bunch of teams styles as I test stuff out, and then occasionally go on a long win streak and climb. Is it easier to go on a long win streak w SkarmGar sand, yeah probably, but it fluctuates. Sometimes the top of the ladder is testing weird stuff and you can’t win w Skarm gar as easily. I find laddering is as much about the player and who you queue against more than exactly what you’re using. Sometimes blues reads my soul over and over again using special offense for example.

Which goes back to ladder vs tournaments. In the last couple of months, I’ve really come back to the idea that ladder success isn’t as good of an arbiter of how good a Mon is playing against the best players in bo1 or bo3 tours. That drives me insane as someone who has laddered for 15 years. I used to farm people w forre on the ladder for example, but bringing it to tours against better competition fully focused is a hard way to win repeatedly. You see that in other mons too, medicham is another as roro mentioned above that has better results in tour than on ladder.

All this to say I don’t think ladder viability is the core way to define how good a mon is. I think VRs are a fun exercise about new ways to use a Mon to ultimately win more games. I’ve enjoyed reading fruhdazi’s, ABR’s, and McM’s VRs, as their takes on the meta and how to succeed are different than mine, and I can take what they write about to build new teams and have fun playing the game that way. At the same time, I think taking laddering as a science is admirable on your part, and I look forward to queuing against you (again probably) on ladder some day.

 

[Padeli]

I wanted to push back a little here bc of how rote you describe reaching the top echelons of the ladder is. I may not be in the upper crust any more, but I’ve been laddering adv for a long time. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts on how you reached 1900+. But there are a lot of ways to do it.

I’ve reached 1900+ with dug offense. I’ve gotten there w mag offense. I went 51-0 with a combo of mix offense and cloyster. I’ve of course gotten there w tss too. I believe my all time high is like 1920s sometime in mid 2023. It would be a lot more helpful to the laddering conversation if I recorded my teams and laddering sessions but I find using one team to get high on the ladder to be boring, I use a bunch of teams styles as I test stuff out, and then occasionally go on a long win streak and climb. Is it easier to go on a long win streak w SkarmGar sand, yeah probably, but it fluctuates. Sometimes the top of the ladder is testing weird stuff and you can’t win w Skarm gar as easily. I find laddering is as much about the player and who you queue against more than exactly what you’re using. Sometimes blues reads my soul over and over again using special offense for example.

Which goes back to ladder vs tournaments. In the last couple of months, I’ve really come back to the idea that ladder success isn’t as good of an arbiter of how good a Mon is playing against the best players in bo1 or bo3 tours. That drives me insane as someone who has laddered for 15 years. I used to farm people w forre on the ladder for example, but bringing it to tours against better competition fully focused is a hard way to win repeatedly. You see that in other mons too, medicham is another as roro mentioned above that has better results in tour than on ladder.

All this to say I don’t think ladder viability is the core way to define how good a mon is. I think VRs are a fun exercise about new ways to use a Mon to ultimately win more games. I’ve enjoyed reading fruhdazi’s, ABR’s, and McM’s VRs, as their takes on the meta and how to succeed are different than mine, and I can take what they write about to build new teams and have fun playing the game that way. At the same time, I think taking laddering as a science is admirable on your part, and I look forward to queuing against you (again probably) on ladder some day.

Yeah I totally agree that there's a huge variety of stuff that can work and that's definitely an argument against what I said - I don't mean to give the impression that what I think is absolute, the answer to this question is not clear at all imo! You're fs more experienced than me so I will absorb what you say... you're more than welcome to push back against what I said, I appreciate it

I think if we made a more controlled environment we could better figure it out - if we put say all the JI players or something, or like maybe 50-100 of the best players into a ladder, and told them you have to load 1 single team to try to hit the top vs all the other best players, what would they load?

That's maybe a better question to start with. I do totally think that in a scenario like that, a mega round robin if you will, the mons that reach the top few spots are generally the best in the tier, but maybe people would still disagree idk. OF COURSE, my hypothetical situation absolutely is not reflective of the actual ladder though lol! I make the important (/boring) 1 team assumption because it removes the ability to try to abuse a metagame trend on the ladder or abuse certain players you know are queueing, I'm trying to remove like external influences on what teams win if that makes sense; you mentioned that sometimes its more about who you're queueing into which is 100% true - if we force a pool of 100 strong players to only queue 1 team without prior knowledge about who they will face, I think that element goes away which is sort of what I'm trying to say in my other post if that makes sense. Maybe this scenario would be a more accurate version of what I was trying to say.

I think a fixed environment like that kinda strikes a balance between tournament viability/ladder viability maybe, it would be really cool to me, I would be extremely curious to see what all the best players build in a scenario like that. :D

Anyways thanks for responding to me! And just to be clear to anyone reading I'm not at all like trying to dismiss people's VR's or something, even if based on mainly tourney results, that in itself is of course extremely valuable, the opinions of the best players in general are to me and I download all of that info... e.g. I've watched McMeghan's VR videos over and over haha. I was just sharing my opinion as a ladder-only player who has thought a shit ton about all this stuff (to a very unhealthy extent lmao).