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OU ADV OU Viability Ranking and Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.
S-Rank
I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.
Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.
Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.
A-Rank
I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.
Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.
Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.
I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.
Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.
I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.
Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.
B-Rank
Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).
Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.
I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.
When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.
Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.
We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.
Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.
I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.
Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.
C-Rank
I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.
Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.
Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.
Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.
Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.
Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.
D-Rank
Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.
I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.
I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.
I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.
Not much to add here.
Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.
Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.
ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.
E-Rank
Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.
I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.
Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.
I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.
Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.
Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.
Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.
Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.
S-Rank
I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.
Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.
Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.
A-Rank
I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.
Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.
Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.
I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.
Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.
I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.
Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.
B-Rank
Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).
Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.
I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.
When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.
Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.
We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.
Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.
I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.
Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.
C-Rank
I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.
Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.
Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.
Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.
Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.
Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.
D-Rank
Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.
I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.
I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.
I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.
Not much to add here.
Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.
Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.
ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.
E-Rank
Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.
I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.
Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.
I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.
Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.
Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.
Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.
Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.
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Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?My VRs post-SPL. Worth noting these are based on tournament games/prep rather than ladder. I also only included Pokemons I actually used/tried/tested with over the last 4-5 months, which is why some Pokemons I consider viable won't be featured.
S-Rank
I like Thief a lot to limit other Skarm's longevity and if you're not facing Skarm, it's likely going to be useful anyway. Just requires more finesse. I also like OffSkarm on fat teams for the odd Magneton match-ups. Not a fan of Taunt in general, it's mainly useful against other Skarm but they will usually find ways to Spikes anyway. Can work on fast pased SkarmOffenses though.
Max HP Bold Blissey is actually incredible. At the cost of IB, you're now much less pressed by pretty much the whole tier and also do a much better job checking the mix attackers like Mence or Salamence. Wish and Cleric are two of the best moves in the tier and enable so many sets/Pokémons, and Bliss is tied with Jirachi as the best Wisher and the best Cleric by far. CM Bliss is also excellent but I think it requires back-up Special checks on the team as otherwise it's too easily abused by a lot of Pokémons without the threat of status.
Sand is just too good. Weird mon to use right now because a lot of meta advancement has been done with beating down/trapping Ttar into weather reset, which is very strong into a lot of TtarSkarm offenses. PursuitTtar also has a unique spot in the metagame that can't be quite filled by anything else and enables a lot of other Pokémons/teams. I like most sets besides the Mixed one. SubTtar probably deserves more usage, as it can be protect itself into sack+Dug plays and is a good breaker in general.
A-Rank
I think Wish is one of the best move in the tier, and works excellently for me and the way I play. Much like Spikes, it makes every Pokémon better, and Jirach is the best user of it. Besides that, I think it has a good set into any team or playstyle. I rate pretty all of its sets besides the Mixed one. I think it's also better than ever in an era where a lot of people are including Suicune in their build, as Jirachi works very well against it in Sand but with a better snowball potential than other Pokemons used for the job. Wish Rachi one of the best Pokémon to have against Skarm teams, which are historically the most consistent teams in the tier.
Hard to go wrong with Meta, although I find it too eratic as a stand-alone offensive piece. I like it a lot alongside good old Mag to enable better Boom targets for your traditional offenses. Also good on balance as a better offensive ramp than other Rock resists and it's not like Skarm cant touch it so you're advantaged long term if you have your own spinner. Boom is a free out of jail freecard if your defense got overwhelmed. AgiliGross still very good to me. Don't like the Mixed sets at all.
Just very sturdy and consistent with an awesome package of move. I rate Curse as a filler to turn the tables on Cune. EndPert is an awesome momentum reverser on Offense.
I like most sets. I've become a fan of SubDD Mence, it's very good into all these Sand-less builds. Also really useful in all those situations where people will control Mence by sending Claydol and boom on it in the late game. Clutch into TW + Ice/Boom in the back or ToxicPert/ToxicRachi as well Just not a fan of CB. It's often hard to navigate into a safe endgame vs DDMence honestly.
Most flexible spinner by far. Second check to pretty much everything in the tier, just a very reliable 'mon and while I do find it passive, it still rarely disappoints me when I use it. Big fan of Wish alongside it to play the long game vs most Spikes build.
I like all the Rest sets, Calm Cune really shifted the meta imo as it's so good into a lot of its checks. Not much else to add here. Roar Cune is still good but very support reliant, as always.
Very low on Zap atm, I don't like how it doesnt have a clear defensive role vs most of the tier. I like more specliazed Pokémons. I used to be high on SpDef Roar Rest but it's awkward to use (Rest sucks) and also thuds into Claydol/Pert so needs the right support. I'm also not a fan of the team it lands itself on at the moment. I still think it excels as an offensive ramp for offense and that's where it shines the most. Although, even then, you're sometimes missing the extra wallbreaking/offense checking that Zapdos doesn't really provide. It's also less solid into Cune right now with all those Calm and IB sets floating around. I also think it has the same issue as Moltres in Blissey is often suffocating for it, and nevermind Claydol pivoting/spinning on it. Still think it's a very reliable 'mon, but feels like a jack of all trade master of none to me right now. I have yet to experiment with the BP Rest and Sub Rest sets though and maybe there is something big to discover there.
B-Rank
Great for offense, same old. Heavily dislike EQ-less though (or at least Focus Punch).
Very good but not a big fan of Dug Offenses and while Dug Defenses are some of the best teams of the tier, they often feel quite inflexible in term of playing, not to mention limited in building options. The ability to accurately gameplan with Dug is unmatched though, and it just checks/enables too much.
I still like 3atk Leech the most as it's a very strong 'mon in the early game to put the pressure on. The defensive sets are plagued with the same issues as ever, but ironically they're also the best check to the 3atk Leech set so I often tried them. The BP sets are either gamebreaking or shit. Solid but too easily pressured for my liking. As an offensive mon, it's sort of checked by all the physical mons of the tier. I rate it but not too much. I think Protect deserves exploration on it, pairs well with Leech and reverses the momentum vs Aero. Toxic is also interesting to me because it heavily punishes a lot of pivots for it.
When you think about it, the only Spinner that doesn't freely invite Skarmory to switch in and get free leftovers heal and its spikes back. Also good at switching into passive mon thanks to Natural Cure. I quite rate those traits despite its overall passivity. The offensive sets are also nice even tho I'm not the biggest user of them. Very solid spot in the meta imo much like Claydol.
Quickly discarding Skarm is just too good. MagSpin also keeps a lot of fattish build in check and force people to be paranoid/renew themselves here and there.
We know what it does. Personally I'm not the biggest fan because I think it's a win-more kind of Pokemon. Either you're even or in the lead and Aero will checkmate your opponent in a lot of situation, or you're behind and it won't be able to reverse the situation (I don't mean those games where you're one or two flinches away from winning). Definitely good to use here and there so Celebi doesn't get too cute vs you though.
Same issues as ever to me, just not kind my jam even though I reckon it has the toolkit to influence games like almost nothing else. I ought to explore Wish support with it because now all the little chip you may take wouldn't be as crippling for late-game scenarios. Technically though, there is no unplayable match-up with Gar, but that's not really how I like to play/prep and find it super awkward to use almost all the time. Its best progress maker is also still a 75% accurate move.
I don't really rate fattish builds with Forre as the sole spinner, as those are too inflexible in term of gaming and Forre feels like it has way too much to do for them. However it's solid alongside another spinner and can use its nice kit of moves to effectively trade into Spinners or cripple Skarm.
Not super flexible in term of building but just very good at checkmating so many Pokémons, like nobody else in the tier.
C-Rank
I rate its unique ability to be a solid Rock check immune to Spikes, but I'm low on Superman builds so keeping it down in the VR. I've tried CB a little bit more this time around and its interesting in the builder but CB EQ is too often a very awkard Stab to click. Not reliable enough offensively for my taste.
Same as ever, maybe better to me in a time of high Suicune usage, but otherwise I wouldn't say I discovered something new here. I think it's nice balanced teams in a similar spot as DDMence where you're not using Mag but just gunning for an endgame after you've weakened everything. Gyarados ability to pivot/check Cune and Pert (without risking an OHKO from IB) is very good on these builds.
Excellent self-sustaining breaker. Much better in Tournaments than ladder imo as most people will respect its OHKO potential more.
Not much to add here. I know I rank it worse than a lot of people but personally I think it lacks a tiny bit of power of power for me as a lot of Pokemons can pivot into the fire moves and then afford to stay in and trade with it. I probably ought to try it more though.
Same as before to me. When I use it I tend to really like Protect + Status to push the issue into a lot of its checks and prefer to deal with Blissey through double checking than Roar.
Still a nice early-game pressure imo, but hard to find value past that and if you have to sack it early, then your advantage of playing vs a slept mon may not amount to much if the opposite sleepy mon is just sent as a sack too. I like Sub a lot on it to delay the sleep and get more mileage out of it.
D-Rank
Honestly I just almost always prefered using Medicham or Breloom. Megahorn being such an unreliable move sucks too. The Fire weakness stinks compared to Medicham. Not an awful Pokemon by any mean but personally not much of my jam.
I'm not a big fan of Spike-less Hariyama fat at this point, these teams feel too slow and too reliant on Hariyama to break through defensive teams. Solid pick into standard sand I have to admit, but kinda weak vs the rest of the meta.
I often found myself experimenting with it as it's such a nice role compressing 'mon but felt hard to justify over Jirachi most of the time. Still think it has a lot of room for exploration on Offense as a unique blend of steel typing that isn't pressued as much by Zap or CMers compared to Rachi.
I respect what ABR has done with it a lot here, it's such a nice physical check with a much better match-up into Fire types, MixMence and Zapdos. Think it has solid days ahead as more than just a Metagross-look-alike on Mag/Boom Offense. Still find it awkward because of the water weakness and the weaker power.
Not much to add here.
Neither here. Personally not a big fan as I feel like it gets too low too quick, hates status, and is too slow to make good use of its access to Boom. Stab IB + TW is hard to play around a lot of the times tho, and I respect it for that.
Really not a fan of this on typical teams where you could use Skarmory instead. Just super awkward to use imo. Cute into offense though as a way to trade something while getting that crucial spikes up. Pairs well with Trappers and I like the interaction of Boom into Mag vs Skarm, or Boom into Dug vs a lot of other things.
ABR has done wonders with it in recent months but personally I haven't explored it too much so I'm gonna keep it where I usually rank it. I always thought being the fastest CMer in the tier, without any weakness to other special mons was a very strong combo of options and I could probably try it more.
E-Rank
Always a good Pokemon to keep in the back pocket for its insane match-up into Claydol and Starmie fat, as both styles are often seen so for that reason alone, I've often considered it.
I think its niche is quite easy to find in general and I also often considered it for this reason. I especially like how it matches into offensive Celebi which is the bane of a lot of defensive teams that won't use Mence, Dug or Aero. Add Jirachi-checking to that too. The main issue here is that, as a Knock Off user, many Pokemons that switch into it are immune to Sand, which delays the progress it'll make on a given game (Pert, Meta, Ttar mainly). On other hand, if you're spinning with it, you will probably want Mag or strong anti-Skarm measure, and it will also be awkward to use as it hates dealing with WoWGar and Skarm long term. Awkward mon.
Same as ever. Would like to add it can be nasty in the backline when you're trading early. Think CB Gross into Jynx to quickly create a 5vs4 situation.
I don't rate Smeargle Offense super highly, I feel like the cost of using a Pokemon that will often not do anything but get one, maybe two spikes into a team that can't play the long term, won't be very good. Not to mention that you're gonna be stuck into weird mindgames vs Spinners. And that's not mentionning the potential nightmare situations where you run into Lum user. Def worth bringing once in a while but never really felt worth it to me.
Honestly not too bad, hard to justify however when compared to the other Fighters but it has that unique blend of bulk/power/higher speed than Hari that makes it unique and usable.
Might be overrated as a Spinner that is such a rock solid check to Ttar/Aero and also solid into a bunch of other physical attackers (Meta, Mence, Gyara, can trade with Fighters too). It's still tight to build with it, and also feels quite awkward in a lot of match-up where you don't have the Boom threat of Claydol.
Same as ever, may be worse atm if anything bc of Suicune usage, and even Starmie has been on the rise, or at least it was in SPL.
Honestly pretty nice, it's solid into Dol much like Missy but feels more useful outside of it with the combo of Knock + Toss. Still very limited vs non-fat teams ofc.
Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.
Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.
I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.
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The answer to the main question you ask in the first paragraph is yes in my opinion: I do think that some strategies/Pokémon perform slightly better for laddering while others work a little better in a tournament environment. I expect that the win rates/usage stats for specific pokemon are probably not much different. However, there are some key differences when teambuilding for trying to make a >1900 ladder run, compared to prepping vs a specific tourney opponent.Not gonna lie, a lot of interesting takes here. I don’t mean that as an insult or anything, though, I mean that from the context of someone who’s not very familiar with SPL and the other big tournaments this metagame features in. That is to say, it’s possible some of the discrepancies here may come from differences in what players might see in bracket compared to on the ladder. This actually brings up a question I find very interesting from a casual player’s perspective: is it reasonable or accurate to assume that a ladder and a tournament or series of tournaments may have different usage stats and win rates for different Pokémon despite technically being the same metagame? And if so, what kinds of things might help a Pokémon succeed in one setting more than the other?
Skarmory at #1 is something I can get behind- I’ve seen Tyranitar, Skarmory, and even Metagross one time all discussed for the top spot- but Blissey at #2? I agree that 252 HP Bold Blissey is excellent, but this has to be my lack of experience with hardcore ADV OU speaking because I just don’t see it. Again, I don’t mean that as an insult. What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a living, breathing skill issue when it comes to this kind of thing, and I hadn’t taken Blissey’s Wish and cleric variants into account in my initial rankings from last year. Blissey’s ability to hold its own against several manners of threats and exercise its vast utility options, while not as vast as a few other Pokémon, makes up for its few shortcomings, many of which can be easily patched up with certain team and set tweaks. 252+ Defense, 252 Special Attack sets have also recently popped up on my radar as a potential check to various sweepers without compromising as much defensively as something like BoltBeam Starmie, historically strong against Dragon Dance cores. Natural Cure is also a great Ability that helps it against status and goes well with HP invested variants on Wish/cleric sets. Top 2 might be a bit high for my liking, but I can get behind the Blissey hype overall.
Jirachi at #4 might be an even more based take than the last one, because I’m liking both it and its Johtonian cousin Celebi more the more I look at them. Steel/Psychic is an absolutely incredible typing, and Jirachi does a great job of feeling balanced here without feeling obnoxious like it does in DPP. Special attacking sets and utility combos are the names of Jirachi’s game, but even lesser used options have some use in specific matchups, including but not limited to the underrated Suicune matchup which I considered to be in Suicune’s favor for a very long time.
I can’t remember what all I’ve thought of Dugtrio over the past year, but my sentiment that Dugtrio might be holding the metagame back has only grown over time. The problem was never Dugtrio itself- defensive teams that can make use of Arena Trap matchups can be very strong even in high level tournaments- but for whatever reason, I always found that at lower levels of play, Dugtrio was hurting my teams more than it was helping. At first I thought I was pairing it with the wrong teammates, or that I was just using Dugtrio wrong in general, but no matter what I’ve tried, I keep running into the same problem. Arena Trap may keep certain matchups on lockdown, but the reason I don’t like it in the upper half of B Tier is because of the momentum my opponents always gain from trading with it. At least from my experience, I actively avoid using Dugtrio to trap certain threats because I know fully well there’s going to be some Flying-Type in the back that gets free turns off of my Dugtrio’s Choice Band lock. Assuming Dugtrio isn’t traded directly for outright, that one turn my opponent’s Gyarados or Salamence or whatever gets for a free Dragon Dance or a free Claydol Rapid Spin changes the momentum of the game every single time. Dugtrio needs to either successfully get multiple traps off in the same game or get really good luck in its favor to be of any noticeable use consistently, since it contributes nothing to a team defensively and can find itself short on certain KOs due to poor damage rolls and a lack of passive damage helping accentuate its just okay 80 base Attack, which isn’t as great as other Choice Banders. Dugtrio’s great in the sense that it can really test lesser experienced players on how to be make use of trapping as a mechanic, but the fact that Dugtrio can be taken advantage of just as easily as you the player can isolate your opponent’s threats really, really hurts my desire to use this Pokémon in place of something with more consistent and engaging gameplay.
The idea is that on the ladder certain pokemon more strongly partition a teams matchups than others. This is actually desirable in tournament; for example one scouts their opponent and wants to bring something like dugtrio. Dugtrio is very strong at its job, but is complete fodder in certain MU's and becomes a major liability occasionally. This is what I mean by "dividing matchups". That phenomenon is *typically* NOT desirable when trying to make big ladder run (not always, and also here I'm assuming we are using only 1 single team for the entire run). For example, if you look at the collection of teams that have made it to 1900+, there are trends that reflect this, meaning people prefer to use strategies that have more broad flexibility instead of strong vs specific matchups. You usually want to build something that has an acceptable matchups vs anything when laddering. Of course, any team will have strong/weak matchups, but the hope is to use a team that has "smooth" matchups instead of like jagged shitty matchups sometimes and excellent matchups other times, if that makes sense. This is basically what you observed about dugtrio in your write up. I agree.
Some examples/trends amongst mega elo ladder teams (thinking of 1950+ here now): most use Ttar+Skarm, and I think about half have used at least one of gengar/aerodactyl. Also, almost all use swampert, I think 5/6 of the ones in my head do. The only real exception to this sort of trend is bluesenergy (goat). I won't type here why these are ideal strategies for the ladder, it'd be another one of my essays, people ofc know why. It's just that you want to use pokemon that are more flexible and certain pokemon/strategies are better at that than others (all relative to the ADV metagame ofc). There are definitely a handful of examples in my head of pokemon that are mildly overrated imo due to this jagged matchup thing, but again, that's not really a problem when prepping for a specific opponent.
Anyways, this is an interesting topic for me and I pretty much am only interested in studying these sorts ideas and high ladder teams in ADV, think it's a cool problem because of how balanced ADV is. My personal opinion is that "ladder viability" is more of a real indicator of how generally good a pokemon is but I think people disagree about that. Like people bring horse shit in tournaments sometimes and it's really frustrating to see, they get away with fishing MU's - ofc the preteens on ladder build trash too though. But imo the overall teambuilding for high ladder is much more solid generally and again I think those team's success is more indicative of a strong structure.
What we can say for certain at least is the intersection of S and A ranks between peoples ladder VR and tournament VR are definitely the best pokemon... the rest is just details, VR's are just like a fun collection of opinions anyways but its super interesting to me to try to like solve the puzzle and say definitively what the best strategies in gen3 are.
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I wanted to push back a little here bc of how rote you describe reaching the top echelons of the ladder is. I may not be in the upper crust any more, but I’ve been laddering adv for a long time. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts on how you reached 1900+. But there are a lot of ways to do it.
I’ve reached 1900+ with dug offense. I’ve gotten there w mag offense. I went 51-0 with a combo of mix offense and cloyster. I’ve of course gotten there w tss too. I believe my all time high is like 1920s sometime in mid 2023. It would be a lot more helpful to the laddering conversation if I recorded my teams and laddering sessions but I find using one team to get high on the ladder to be boring, I use a bunch of teams styles as I test stuff out, and then occasionally go on a long win streak and climb. Is it easier to go on a long win streak w SkarmGar sand, yeah probably, but it fluctuates. Sometimes the top of the ladder is testing weird stuff and you can’t win w Skarm gar as easily. I find laddering is as much about the player and who you queue against more than exactly what you’re using. Sometimes blues reads my soul over and over again using special offense for example.
Which goes back to ladder vs tournaments. In the last couple of months, I’ve really come back to the idea that ladder success isn’t as good of an arbiter of how good a Mon is playing against the best players in bo1 or bo3 tours. That drives me insane as someone who has laddered for 15 years. I used to farm people w forre on the ladder for example, but bringing it to tours against better competition fully focused is a hard way to win repeatedly. You see that in other mons too, medicham is another as roro mentioned above that has better results in tour than on ladder.
All this to say I don’t think ladder viability is the core way to define how good a mon is. I think VRs are a fun exercise about new ways to use a Mon to ultimately win more games. I’ve enjoyed reading fruhdazi’s, ABR’s, and McM’s VRs, as their takes on the meta and how to succeed are different than mine, and I can take what they write about to build new teams and have fun playing the game that way. At the same time, I think taking laddering as a science is admirable on your part, and I look forward to queuing against you (again probably) on ladder some day.
Yeah I totally agree that there's a huge variety of stuff that can work and that's definitely an argument against what I said - I don't mean to give the impression that what I think is absolute, the answer to this question is not clear at all imo! You're fs more experienced than me so I will absorb what you say... you're more than welcome to push back against what I said, I appreciate it
I think if we made a more controlled environment we could better figure it out - if we put say all the JI players or something, or like maybe 50-100 of the best players into a ladder, and told them you have to load 1 single team to try to hit the top vs all the other best players, what would they load?
That's maybe a better question to start with. I do totally think that in a scenario like that, a mega round robin if you will, the mons that reach the top few spots are generally the best in the tier, but maybe people would still disagree idk. OF COURSE, my hypothetical situation absolutely is not reflective of the actual ladder though lol! I make the important (/boring) 1 team assumption because it removes the ability to try to abuse a metagame trend on the ladder or abuse certain players you know are queueing, I'm trying to remove like external influences on what teams win if that makes sense; you mentioned that sometimes its more about who you're queueing into which is 100% true - if we force a pool of 100 strong players to only queue 1 team without prior knowledge about who they will face, I think that element goes away which is sort of what I'm trying to say in my other post if that makes sense. Maybe this scenario would be a more accurate version of what I was trying to say.
I think a fixed environment like that kinda strikes a balance between tournament viability/ladder viability maybe, it would be really cool to me, I would be extremely curious to see what all the best players build in a scenario like that. :D
Anyways thanks for responding to me! And just to be clear to anyone reading I'm not at all like trying to dismiss people's VR's or something, even if based on mainly tourney results, that in itself is of course extremely valuable, the opinions of the best players in general are to me and I download all of that info... e.g. I've watched McMeghan's VR videos over and over haha. I was just sharing my opinion as a ladder-only player who has thought a shit ton about all this stuff (to a very unhealthy extent lmao).
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Been enjoying ADV for the last few months. Thought it would be fun to share some thoughts on the tier.
WARNING: My experience of playing the tier comes exclusively from laddering. I have hit rank 1, and gotten into top 10 with a bunch of different teams I made, but I have no tournament experience and so my rankings might reflect this.
Explanations:
WARNING: My experience of playing the tier comes exclusively from laddering. I have hit rank 1, and gotten into top 10 with a bunch of different teams I made, but I have no tournament experience and so my rankings might reflect this.
Explanations:
Tyranitar: Sand is amazing at limiting whatever your opponent is going to throw at you. Tar is obviously also a huge threat. DD wins so many games, even against good players, and I appreciate how it gives a team a win-con/out that can be played for even in dire situations. I normally just use DD-Tar over BKC as dropping one of HP bug or FP on BKC in favour of DD gives you a more flexible mon (DD-Punch is amazing).
Pursuit is powerful and I use it a decent amount, but it sometimes feels a bit limp into offence and random cheese.
Mixed sets can be amazing given good positioning and the fact your opponent has to respect your coverage. Especially given a good lead MU you often get to reveal 3-4 mons on their team as they dance around your coverage and limit their gameplan massively. However, you do suck into stall/Dug and so you need to cover this elsewhere.
Not a fan of CB. High ceiling but I don't want to rely on a slow(ish), choice-locked, spike weak mon with little reliable defensive utility given it cannot take more than 1 kill against stall before getting Dug-trapped (CB-Tar feels like it needs to be trading up to compensate for the defensive support it needs).
Skarmory: Obviously amazing and meta-defining. Best spiker and spikes limit the opponent and make progress. Can be tweaked with taunt, thief to fit teams pace and style. Not an easy mon to use optimally though, which is one of the great things about this Meta. Once 1 spike has been made, knowing when to spike again, toxic, protect, roar or switch out requires foresight and understanding.
The only reason it's not #1 for me is that, if you are relying on spikes for progress, it typically needs support to maintain layers from either a spinblocker or Pursuit-Tar pressuring spinners as otherwise one or more of Refresh-Dol/Starmie/Forre can just shut your down.
Pursuit is powerful and I use it a decent amount, but it sometimes feels a bit limp into offence and random cheese.
Mixed sets can be amazing given good positioning and the fact your opponent has to respect your coverage. Especially given a good lead MU you often get to reveal 3-4 mons on their team as they dance around your coverage and limit their gameplan massively. However, you do suck into stall/Dug and so you need to cover this elsewhere.
Not a fan of CB. High ceiling but I don't want to rely on a slow(ish), choice-locked, spike weak mon with little reliable defensive utility given it cannot take more than 1 kill against stall before getting Dug-trapped (CB-Tar feels like it needs to be trading up to compensate for the defensive support it needs).
Skarmory: Obviously amazing and meta-defining. Best spiker and spikes limit the opponent and make progress. Can be tweaked with taunt, thief to fit teams pace and style. Not an easy mon to use optimally though, which is one of the great things about this Meta. Once 1 spike has been made, knowing when to spike again, toxic, protect, roar or switch out requires foresight and understanding.
The only reason it's not #1 for me is that, if you are relying on spikes for progress, it typically needs support to maintain layers from either a spinblocker or Pursuit-Tar pressuring spinners as otherwise one or more of Refresh-Dol/Starmie/Forre can just shut your down.
Metagross: Does so much in a single slot. Checks Physical Tar, soft-checks near everything else with boom. Mash is broken and it feels like it raises twice as often as it misses.
Agility with lefties and boom is, IMHO, the best set. Probably the best end-game mon in the tier as it almost always trades up or sweeps in the endgame. As last mon, it can be a great sneaky win-con against fat teams if their bulky water is gone.
Similar to my opinion on BKC-Tar, vs DD-Tar, I generally prefer agility over bulky Protect sets as it gives you a far better potential win-con and endgame cleaner at the cost of a bit of bulk/longevity. You also notice the Mash misses a lot more compared to the raises with bulky sets.
CB is great but only fits on aggressive teams. The right boom wins you games.
Mixed is interesting but I think that CB is probably overall better on offence given that CB can spam Mash whilst Mixed often needs to lure/predict. Can still be good though, especially as a CM pass recipient.
Blissey: Again, does so much in a single slot - Walls almost all special attackers and soaks status. Basically incredible defensive security. Amazing movepool as well, meaning with the likes of Counter, T-wave, Sing, CM and coverage moves, it can often just screw over some proportion of what is "supposed" to beat it. Can also support the team with Wish and Aroma.
Does have some 4MSS problems at times though and, when building with it, it's important to ensure Blissey isn't going to be farmed for progress by physical attackers or trapped by bulky Dug since it can often be played very predictabley.
Jirachi: Broken. Genuinely think it should be banned as it robs games like nothing else. If you switch into a physical attacker on it, it will burn with Fire Punch.
Ranting aside, I think (specially) defensive Jirachi is as close as it comes to a special wall that can be used in place of Blissey. It is weak to fire and cannot soak status, but I think what it loses there it gains in terms of flexibility. Wish, Protect and its natural physical bulk mean it is way more difficult for physical attackers to abuse it. It is also less vulnerable to Dug if running Slam. Chip healing allows it to be played far less predictably than Blissey as it doesn't always feel forced to Wish to heal. As a result, it can status offensive mons trying to switch into it (or prevent them from doing so altogether). Wish is obviously also amazing at supporting team-mates.
Physically defensive sets are also kinda crazy in terms of being able to 1v1 Pert, BKC Tar and Meta. However, you often feel like you need another physically defensive rock-resist for DD-Tar and so I feel I might as well make Rachi specially defensive.
Offensive CM Jirachi sets are also incredibly annoying to fight as they can often hax their way to victory and have lots of potential coverage options you often have to play around. Admittedly these sets feel a little more inconsistent and need the right support, but SuperRachi can be an amazing late game cleaner and, in the right MU, bulky CM sets can 6-0.
Mixed feels like cheese but my god Dynamic Punch is horrifying to play against.
Swampert: Pert is just reliable and covers most physical attackers. I think pretty much all sets are good. I am especially a fan of bulky attacking sets with 4 attacks, HP and special attack investment as it can tear through certain teams whilst having the bulk to still stand up to Tar and Aero decently well. Curse is also good at providing an win-con for fatter teams that can support it whilst still having Pert be able to perform its main defensive role.
Agility with lefties and boom is, IMHO, the best set. Probably the best end-game mon in the tier as it almost always trades up or sweeps in the endgame. As last mon, it can be a great sneaky win-con against fat teams if their bulky water is gone.
Similar to my opinion on BKC-Tar, vs DD-Tar, I generally prefer agility over bulky Protect sets as it gives you a far better potential win-con and endgame cleaner at the cost of a bit of bulk/longevity. You also notice the Mash misses a lot more compared to the raises with bulky sets.
CB is great but only fits on aggressive teams. The right boom wins you games.
Mixed is interesting but I think that CB is probably overall better on offence given that CB can spam Mash whilst Mixed often needs to lure/predict. Can still be good though, especially as a CM pass recipient.
Blissey: Again, does so much in a single slot - Walls almost all special attackers and soaks status. Basically incredible defensive security. Amazing movepool as well, meaning with the likes of Counter, T-wave, Sing, CM and coverage moves, it can often just screw over some proportion of what is "supposed" to beat it. Can also support the team with Wish and Aroma.
Does have some 4MSS problems at times though and, when building with it, it's important to ensure Blissey isn't going to be farmed for progress by physical attackers or trapped by bulky Dug since it can often be played very predictabley.
Jirachi: Broken. Genuinely think it should be banned as it robs games like nothing else. If you switch into a physical attacker on it, it will burn with Fire Punch.
Ranting aside, I think (specially) defensive Jirachi is as close as it comes to a special wall that can be used in place of Blissey. It is weak to fire and cannot soak status, but I think what it loses there it gains in terms of flexibility. Wish, Protect and its natural physical bulk mean it is way more difficult for physical attackers to abuse it. It is also less vulnerable to Dug if running Slam. Chip healing allows it to be played far less predictably than Blissey as it doesn't always feel forced to Wish to heal. As a result, it can status offensive mons trying to switch into it (or prevent them from doing so altogether). Wish is obviously also amazing at supporting team-mates.
Physically defensive sets are also kinda crazy in terms of being able to 1v1 Pert, BKC Tar and Meta. However, you often feel like you need another physically defensive rock-resist for DD-Tar and so I feel I might as well make Rachi specially defensive.
Offensive CM Jirachi sets are also incredibly annoying to fight as they can often hax their way to victory and have lots of potential coverage options you often have to play around. Admittedly these sets feel a little more inconsistent and need the right support, but SuperRachi can be an amazing late game cleaner and, in the right MU, bulky CM sets can 6-0.
Mixed feels like cheese but my god Dynamic Punch is horrifying to play against.
Swampert: Pert is just reliable and covers most physical attackers. I think pretty much all sets are good. I am especially a fan of bulky attacking sets with 4 attacks, HP and special attack investment as it can tear through certain teams whilst having the bulk to still stand up to Tar and Aero decently well. Curse is also good at providing an win-con for fatter teams that can support it whilst still having Pert be able to perform its main defensive role.
Gengar: As well as spinblocking, Gengar is insanely versatile in both the builder and battles. I really value the fact that it can be EV'd to check a whole plethora of threats and the fact Wisp is so limiting for the opponent (even if it misses!). It also improves the overall MU spread of Spike teams since, with enough gaming, you can basically always outplay spinners with Gar. I tend to just stick to the standard move-set options but thinks like Focus Punch and trapping sets are also pretty interesting. Only reason it's not higher is that it only really fits on teams with spikes or special offence.
Celebi: Leech seed is amazing for providing balance and bulky offence with longevity. Complements physical and mixed attackers so well by punishing bulky waters. It is also insanely annoying for fat teams and one of the few things in the tier that can make me feel safe against Suicune (I rarely ever use <270 speed).
I generally prefer to use Leech + 3 attacks. Defensive sets are also great in some cases but have a tendency to get haxed due to needing to go through multiple recover loops, meaning they aren't that solid vs special attackers like OffMie and Gengar. They can also be Skarm food.
I think offensive CM sets are generally outclassed by SuperRachi due to it's better defensive typing and greater moveset options. Baton Pass sets are amazing in some match-ups and, even when they should get shut down by something like Rest-Zap, people have a tendency to misplay against these Celebi sets and not go straight into a phazer (particularly if you can disguise the fact you are a CM-Pass/SD Pass team).
Suicune: Hard mon to rank since it is punished by some of the format's central threats and therefore needs support. However, if there is anything in the tier worth giving the support to, it is this. Defensive sets can essentially be unkillable in the right MU and tend to win long games. Many teams have very little to threaten it directly. Obviously rest can be exploited and that's where the support has to come in (Trappers, Aroma). With weather reset, this becomes even more pronounced.
If I can fit Ice Beam elsewhere, I tend to like Roar on Defensive sets to provide phazing also deal with other CM Pokemon.
Offensive sets are also pretty cool and utilising them is one of the main reasons to use a team style like special offence. I like Sub sets as an alternative way to punish Blissey/Stall but max speed max special attack is also valid and can be a terrifying lead.
Sleep-talk sets seem pretty inconsistent but they can be amazing at punishing teams that rely on phazing Suicune to beat it.
Dugtrio: Should this be allowed? I will not go into this here but all I will say is that getting your lead trapped by this thing and feeling like you should forfeit turn 1 sucks.
In any case, Dug is obviously insanely powerful at enabling certain teammates. Dugtrio stall is one of the most consistent archetypes in the game and it is primarily enabled by this thing being able to just remove things like Hera, CB-Tar, Bulky CM Rachi that would otherwise just destroy it. The fact that bulky sets can trap Blissey for special offence is just the icing on the cake.
I don't really enjoy using this mon, but it impacts me in the builder enormously and, in particular, constrains things like spikeless balance so much due to not really being able to wear it down and not having the offence to punish it.
Obviously it has flaws and its choice locks can be punished, but it warps the metagame so much I felt I had to put it here.
Zapdos: Amazing at enabling offensive pokemon like fighters, CB Meta and Tar by inviting in passive special walls. Obviously also great with Dugtrio on Special offence. However, I am a bit down on Zapdos. Offensive sets are amazing in the lead, and Zapdos in general is great a 1v1ing and stat-checking a whole bunch of tier. However, it lacks a clear defensive niche and therefore feels pretty hard to fit onto teams sometimes as there are mons that often seem to solve more problems in the builder. It also tends to need to combo with other mons to make progress, be it Dug, spikers or physical attackers.
Defensive sets can be great. It is probably the best phazer in the tier and walls a load of mixed attackers. However, sand really limits its ability to wall special attackers and so it really needs support from either Aroma-Blissey or by trapping Tar with Dugtrio and clearing weather, which is a lot of investment.
Celebi: Leech seed is amazing for providing balance and bulky offence with longevity. Complements physical and mixed attackers so well by punishing bulky waters. It is also insanely annoying for fat teams and one of the few things in the tier that can make me feel safe against Suicune (I rarely ever use <270 speed).
I generally prefer to use Leech + 3 attacks. Defensive sets are also great in some cases but have a tendency to get haxed due to needing to go through multiple recover loops, meaning they aren't that solid vs special attackers like OffMie and Gengar. They can also be Skarm food.
I think offensive CM sets are generally outclassed by SuperRachi due to it's better defensive typing and greater moveset options. Baton Pass sets are amazing in some match-ups and, even when they should get shut down by something like Rest-Zap, people have a tendency to misplay against these Celebi sets and not go straight into a phazer (particularly if you can disguise the fact you are a CM-Pass/SD Pass team).
Suicune: Hard mon to rank since it is punished by some of the format's central threats and therefore needs support. However, if there is anything in the tier worth giving the support to, it is this. Defensive sets can essentially be unkillable in the right MU and tend to win long games. Many teams have very little to threaten it directly. Obviously rest can be exploited and that's where the support has to come in (Trappers, Aroma). With weather reset, this becomes even more pronounced.
If I can fit Ice Beam elsewhere, I tend to like Roar on Defensive sets to provide phazing also deal with other CM Pokemon.
Offensive sets are also pretty cool and utilising them is one of the main reasons to use a team style like special offence. I like Sub sets as an alternative way to punish Blissey/Stall but max speed max special attack is also valid and can be a terrifying lead.
Sleep-talk sets seem pretty inconsistent but they can be amazing at punishing teams that rely on phazing Suicune to beat it.
Dugtrio: Should this be allowed? I will not go into this here but all I will say is that getting your lead trapped by this thing and feeling like you should forfeit turn 1 sucks.
In any case, Dug is obviously insanely powerful at enabling certain teammates. Dugtrio stall is one of the most consistent archetypes in the game and it is primarily enabled by this thing being able to just remove things like Hera, CB-Tar, Bulky CM Rachi that would otherwise just destroy it. The fact that bulky sets can trap Blissey for special offence is just the icing on the cake.
I don't really enjoy using this mon, but it impacts me in the builder enormously and, in particular, constrains things like spikeless balance so much due to not really being able to wear it down and not having the offence to punish it.
Obviously it has flaws and its choice locks can be punished, but it warps the metagame so much I felt I had to put it here.
Zapdos: Amazing at enabling offensive pokemon like fighters, CB Meta and Tar by inviting in passive special walls. Obviously also great with Dugtrio on Special offence. However, I am a bit down on Zapdos. Offensive sets are amazing in the lead, and Zapdos in general is great a 1v1ing and stat-checking a whole bunch of tier. However, it lacks a clear defensive niche and therefore feels pretty hard to fit onto teams sometimes as there are mons that often seem to solve more problems in the builder. It also tends to need to combo with other mons to make progress, be it Dug, spikers or physical attackers.
Defensive sets can be great. It is probably the best phazer in the tier and walls a load of mixed attackers. However, sand really limits its ability to wall special attackers and so it really needs support from either Aroma-Blissey or by trapping Tar with Dugtrio and clearing weather, which is a lot of investment.
Starmie: Huge fan of this Pokemon. Defensive sets, as well as providing rapid spin, status spreading and longevity combo really well with other natural cure users like Blissey and Celebi to provide a defensive core that is very difficult to wear down with indirect damage. Its speed and T-Wave allow it to check a lot of physical attackers. Its also a good switch into unrevealed Jirachi sets given it can shrug off status, break Substitute, live any attack and Thunder wave it, and this is a trait I really value given how dangerous Jirachi can be. The only downside is that it can sometimes struggle to Spin against pressure from Skarmory, Gengar and Pursuit-Tar. It often feels like it needs some support in this regard from something like a Pursuit Tar, but I think this is worth providing due to its other positive traits.
OffMie is also really fun to use. Absolutely cleaves through certain teams (physical/mixed offence) and is a pretty good win-con on teams that aim to eliminate Blissey. Only issue is that it is only really good a spinning once, and so your team needs to reflect this.
I have also used hybrid sets with Recover, Spin, Pump and Ice beam, having bulk and the speed and special attack needed to outspeed and 2HKO Gengar. I found this surprisingly effective set which catches a lot of people off guard (IB Mence when they think you don't have it).
Salamence: Perhaps not as big a fan of this as most. Not that I think it's bad. It just needs to be on the right team. In particular, Mixed on Bulky Offence or paired with Magneton.
The Mixed sets are the most viable (require little support) and pairs really well with strong physical attackers like Snorlax, Tar, Meta and Aerodactyl since it can hit the likes of Metagross, Swampert, Flygon as well as Blissey with which they are commonly paired. It therefore complements these attackers really well and provides Intimidate to allow these offensive structures to pivot around the opposing offensive threats and check fighters. However, I am not a big fan of mixed-Mence on balance. I don't think it provides enough in 1 slot due to being stopped by Suicune, Milo, DefZap, DefRachi and Blissey. Some of these problems can be alleviated by spikes but it still requires a lot of prediction to make progress against strong defensive cores, whilst also not really being fast enough to provide meaning speed control/revenge killing power. Finally, against many Special Offence/CM-spam teams, mixed Mence just feels completely ineffectual.
CB sets are really strong IMO. Obviously they require support from Mag and Wish, but I think they are really worth supporting since Mence provides breaking power whilst not being able to be easily trapped or worn down. It also has the defensive utility checking fighters whilst also stopping Cele-Pass.
DD Mence feels like it has a lot of roadblocks against common teams structures and so I haven't tried to make it work too extensively. I am open to changing my mind here though as it has obvious merits.
Wish-Mence sets are interesting, but very niche since Mence shouldn't really be used as a teams primary Wish user. There is definitely room for exploration here though and I have liked using such sets with Wish, Roar, Flame, D-Claw for a general utility mon with some offence.
Aerodactyl: I rate Aero pretty highly. It needs Spikes or to be paired with lots of other physical attackers to be offensively effective. However, even when struggling to make direct progress, it can often be useful in MUs by providing speed control preventing Cele-Pass. It also helps keep spikes up by threatening spinners out after they have KO'd your spinblocker.
CB sets can be prediction reliant but are very powerful in situations when spikes are down and you are up in the Pokemon count (allowing enough CB-Locks to KO all enemy mons) and so rewards keeping low health mons as sacks.
Sub-Leichi sets are more niche and generally only work on very offensive teams, but can be very strong at surprising the opponent and taking advantage of things like sleep.
Claydol: Weird mon. Not bad though. Spin, Psychic for Gar and Boom really cannot be bad. Struggles to both spin and take advantage of explosion but, in many cases, spinning might be all you need. Another Mon that soft-checks a lot of threats with boom. However, I think people tend to exaggerate it's utility beyond that (it's not like it can really switch many things that safely, it's just that not much can take advantage of it).
Refresh sets are useful if you are wanting to shut down Tox-Skarm, but it relies on giving up other tools.
I have seen people run all sorts of BS on this like HP-Fire, IB and Toxic, but I think Eq is kinda needed unless you are planning on Dugging Tar.
Magneton: Traps Skarmory and enables a lot of stuff. Not a big fan of Mag offence since a lot of the mons on those teams have common weaknesses (OffMie, Gengar). However, I think Mag balance with the likes of Suicune, Blissey, CB Mence, Meta, Skarm, Dol, Celebi, Milo, Dug are some of the most consistent teams in the tier. Also a nice mon to have into CB Meta.
OffMie is also really fun to use. Absolutely cleaves through certain teams (physical/mixed offence) and is a pretty good win-con on teams that aim to eliminate Blissey. Only issue is that it is only really good a spinning once, and so your team needs to reflect this.
I have also used hybrid sets with Recover, Spin, Pump and Ice beam, having bulk and the speed and special attack needed to outspeed and 2HKO Gengar. I found this surprisingly effective set which catches a lot of people off guard (IB Mence when they think you don't have it).
Salamence: Perhaps not as big a fan of this as most. Not that I think it's bad. It just needs to be on the right team. In particular, Mixed on Bulky Offence or paired with Magneton.
The Mixed sets are the most viable (require little support) and pairs really well with strong physical attackers like Snorlax, Tar, Meta and Aerodactyl since it can hit the likes of Metagross, Swampert, Flygon as well as Blissey with which they are commonly paired. It therefore complements these attackers really well and provides Intimidate to allow these offensive structures to pivot around the opposing offensive threats and check fighters. However, I am not a big fan of mixed-Mence on balance. I don't think it provides enough in 1 slot due to being stopped by Suicune, Milo, DefZap, DefRachi and Blissey. Some of these problems can be alleviated by spikes but it still requires a lot of prediction to make progress against strong defensive cores, whilst also not really being fast enough to provide meaning speed control/revenge killing power. Finally, against many Special Offence/CM-spam teams, mixed Mence just feels completely ineffectual.
CB sets are really strong IMO. Obviously they require support from Mag and Wish, but I think they are really worth supporting since Mence provides breaking power whilst not being able to be easily trapped or worn down. It also has the defensive utility checking fighters whilst also stopping Cele-Pass.
DD Mence feels like it has a lot of roadblocks against common teams structures and so I haven't tried to make it work too extensively. I am open to changing my mind here though as it has obvious merits.
Wish-Mence sets are interesting, but very niche since Mence shouldn't really be used as a teams primary Wish user. There is definitely room for exploration here though and I have liked using such sets with Wish, Roar, Flame, D-Claw for a general utility mon with some offence.
Aerodactyl: I rate Aero pretty highly. It needs Spikes or to be paired with lots of other physical attackers to be offensively effective. However, even when struggling to make direct progress, it can often be useful in MUs by providing speed control preventing Cele-Pass. It also helps keep spikes up by threatening spinners out after they have KO'd your spinblocker.
CB sets can be prediction reliant but are very powerful in situations when spikes are down and you are up in the Pokemon count (allowing enough CB-Locks to KO all enemy mons) and so rewards keeping low health mons as sacks.
Sub-Leichi sets are more niche and generally only work on very offensive teams, but can be very strong at surprising the opponent and taking advantage of things like sleep.
Claydol: Weird mon. Not bad though. Spin, Psychic for Gar and Boom really cannot be bad. Struggles to both spin and take advantage of explosion but, in many cases, spinning might be all you need. Another Mon that soft-checks a lot of threats with boom. However, I think people tend to exaggerate it's utility beyond that (it's not like it can really switch many things that safely, it's just that not much can take advantage of it).
Refresh sets are useful if you are wanting to shut down Tox-Skarm, but it relies on giving up other tools.
I have seen people run all sorts of BS on this like HP-Fire, IB and Toxic, but I think Eq is kinda needed unless you are planning on Dugging Tar.
Magneton: Traps Skarmory and enables a lot of stuff. Not a big fan of Mag offence since a lot of the mons on those teams have common weaknesses (OffMie, Gengar). However, I think Mag balance with the likes of Suicune, Blissey, CB Mence, Meta, Skarm, Dol, Celebi, Milo, Dug are some of the most consistent teams in the tier. Also a nice mon to have into CB Meta.
Charizard: A terrifying mon to face at times, and super fun to use. Against teams without Suicune/Milo it can be an amazing breaker. I also like the fact that can be played very aggressively and doesn't mind/actually likes losing hp. Genuinely better than Mixed-Mence in many circumstances as it has a much higher raw damage output. However, it doesn't have much defensive utility and needs to be on fast paced teams.
I generally run Blast and HP-Grass with either Sub + Punch, Beat-Up + Punch or D-Claw + Punch. Just make sure beat up isn't your only tool for Blissey.
Snorlax: I think Lax is decent in the current metagame. Has all its usual flaws but the teams that expose them aren't as prominent as perhaps they once were. I also think it can be effectively paired with mons like Celebi which help ensure Lax doesn't get overloaded by Special attackers.
Utility Lax can be a great trader on offence. It normally wants support from a trapper to help narrow down its switch-ins and better punish them. I am also a big fan of Counter+Punch if you can fit - even if your opponent see it coming, it can be very hard to play around.
I also think Curse Lax has potential. I know it's a bit of a Marmite Pokemon and requires a lot of support, but it absolutely destroys a lot of fat teams and even dropping one of Sand or Spikes makes this thing immediately hard to deal with. Also, weather clear strategies already have a great abuser in Suicune so it's not like your have to be all in on Lax.
Moltres: Difficult to fit, but amazing at what it does. With a Modest nature, basically the only thing that stands up to it long term is Blissey (Wisp into Milo on the switch-in can leave it vulnerable to HP-Grass after any prior chip). Some teams have no way of dealing with it at all. With Spikes support is an absolute menace. It compliments bulky physical attackers like Tar and Meta really well by forcing in Blissey for them and also chipping bulky waters like Suicune. It also does well as a long term progress maker on superman teams, often with Rest and Aroma Support for longevity.
The main issue with Molt is that it is threatened hugely by a lot of common Mons and status and even things like Skarm, Celebi or Meta that it uses as entry opportunities can damage a fair bit or toxic it on switch in. It can also feel like it's a bit slow-paced for some MUs as it needs time to break past the likes of Mixed-Mence, Tyranitar, Suicune and opposing fire types.
Milotic: Very 1 dimensional but good at what it does - wall things. Important for certain fat/stall teams and has a few techs (Mirror coat/Hypnosis) to make it a bit faster paced, but fundamentally it's there to sponge status, wall mixed attackers and a good deal of other stuff too. Only really fits on slow paced teams but does a fine job on them.
Flygon: Defensive Flygon is a good alternate physical Tar check, but very passive into common mons like Skarm, Gar, Refresh Pert and so typically needs Mag support or to be on a Superman team. Great into players who rely too much on Spikes to enable threats like Aero and Tar, but not as good into other physical threats like Mence or Meta as Swampert is, so needs more support defensively also.
I actually like OffGon. Has a lot of roadblocks, but it can actually be amazing against offence, especially with Paralysis support and Sub. I used it on a team with SuitTar, a fighter to beat down Skarm and a bunch of Paralysis spreaders like DefRachi and DefMie and it often went crazy in endgames, bringing back games that seemed lost so often.
I have not tried CBGon. Seems like a version of CBMence with less power/coverage but sand immunity. Checks Tar over Fighters. Seems worse overall but idk.
Jolteon: Probably seems like a decently high Jolt placement, and I think this is partly a complement to my relatively low Zap placement. Unlike Zap. I feel like Jolt has a more clear defensive niche of being able to check fast special attackers like Gar, Zap and Starmie. Overall worse stats but the speed does make a huge difference and it does give it real value in most MUs. Also Roar and BP are just generally useful tools.
Jolt spikes team have the same problems as always against Claydol and, whilst this can be compensated for by teammates to a degree (Peck Skarm & Gar), it does often feel like an uphill battle. However, I think Jolteon is under-appreciated on Special Offence and Mixed Offence. It is an amazing CM-Pass receiver as it also has BP and the fastest Roar in the tier. It also helps to cover the over-reliance on mons like Lax to check special threats on Mixed Offence whilst being a good late-game cleaner itself.
I generally run Blast and HP-Grass with either Sub + Punch, Beat-Up + Punch or D-Claw + Punch. Just make sure beat up isn't your only tool for Blissey.
Snorlax: I think Lax is decent in the current metagame. Has all its usual flaws but the teams that expose them aren't as prominent as perhaps they once were. I also think it can be effectively paired with mons like Celebi which help ensure Lax doesn't get overloaded by Special attackers.
Utility Lax can be a great trader on offence. It normally wants support from a trapper to help narrow down its switch-ins and better punish them. I am also a big fan of Counter+Punch if you can fit - even if your opponent see it coming, it can be very hard to play around.
I also think Curse Lax has potential. I know it's a bit of a Marmite Pokemon and requires a lot of support, but it absolutely destroys a lot of fat teams and even dropping one of Sand or Spikes makes this thing immediately hard to deal with. Also, weather clear strategies already have a great abuser in Suicune so it's not like your have to be all in on Lax.
Moltres: Difficult to fit, but amazing at what it does. With a Modest nature, basically the only thing that stands up to it long term is Blissey (Wisp into Milo on the switch-in can leave it vulnerable to HP-Grass after any prior chip). Some teams have no way of dealing with it at all. With Spikes support is an absolute menace. It compliments bulky physical attackers like Tar and Meta really well by forcing in Blissey for them and also chipping bulky waters like Suicune. It also does well as a long term progress maker on superman teams, often with Rest and Aroma Support for longevity.
The main issue with Molt is that it is threatened hugely by a lot of common Mons and status and even things like Skarm, Celebi or Meta that it uses as entry opportunities can damage a fair bit or toxic it on switch in. It can also feel like it's a bit slow-paced for some MUs as it needs time to break past the likes of Mixed-Mence, Tyranitar, Suicune and opposing fire types.
Milotic: Very 1 dimensional but good at what it does - wall things. Important for certain fat/stall teams and has a few techs (Mirror coat/Hypnosis) to make it a bit faster paced, but fundamentally it's there to sponge status, wall mixed attackers and a good deal of other stuff too. Only really fits on slow paced teams but does a fine job on them.
Flygon: Defensive Flygon is a good alternate physical Tar check, but very passive into common mons like Skarm, Gar, Refresh Pert and so typically needs Mag support or to be on a Superman team. Great into players who rely too much on Spikes to enable threats like Aero and Tar, but not as good into other physical threats like Mence or Meta as Swampert is, so needs more support defensively also.
I actually like OffGon. Has a lot of roadblocks, but it can actually be amazing against offence, especially with Paralysis support and Sub. I used it on a team with SuitTar, a fighter to beat down Skarm and a bunch of Paralysis spreaders like DefRachi and DefMie and it often went crazy in endgames, bringing back games that seemed lost so often.
I have not tried CBGon. Seems like a version of CBMence with less power/coverage but sand immunity. Checks Tar over Fighters. Seems worse overall but idk.
Jolteon: Probably seems like a decently high Jolt placement, and I think this is partly a complement to my relatively low Zap placement. Unlike Zap. I feel like Jolt has a more clear defensive niche of being able to check fast special attackers like Gar, Zap and Starmie. Overall worse stats but the speed does make a huge difference and it does give it real value in most MUs. Also Roar and BP are just generally useful tools.
Jolt spikes team have the same problems as always against Claydol and, whilst this can be compensated for by teammates to a degree (Peck Skarm & Gar), it does often feel like an uphill battle. However, I think Jolteon is under-appreciated on Special Offence and Mixed Offence. It is an amazing CM-Pass receiver as it also has BP and the fastest Roar in the tier. It also helps to cover the over-reliance on mons like Lax to check special threats on Mixed Offence whilst being a good late-game cleaner itself.
Heracross: Who doesn't love the bonk beetle. This thing has breaking potential like not much else in the tier and is an important tool for keeping greedy fat teams in check.
I am a big fan of Sub-Punch sets. They feel the most consistent with the right support as they don't just get immediately Dugged. SD 3 Attack sets and CB are also interesting but I honestly don't think this thing needs the extra power, it needs to avoid getting trapped. Sub-Salac with weather clear sets can be crazy, and I think would be ban worthy if Tar didn't exist, but alas it does and so it needs the right conditions to thrive. There is also the Megahorn lottery issue also.
Medicham: Very frail so it generally has to be led. There is can win games in a few turns with the right clicks, but if this fails to get immediate value it also can fall flat on it's face a bit since, even after minimal chip, it basically dies to a light breeze and it's not really that fast.
Endure Salac Reversal sets are powers but, like with Salac-Hera, they need support.
Raikou: Still underrated IMO. Probably should be OU. It's a crazy pokemon when Dug isn't around and, being the fastest CM user in the tier, it has huge sweeping potential. Many teams are very close to getting 6-0 by this thing given that many checks like Tar and Meta are liable to getting chipped. It can also beat Blissey often with hax or if it gets a CM head-start.
Still inconsistent and so it is typically found on CM spam teams with lots of other inconsistent special sweepers. However, it feels like recently we have seen this thing used of loads of different styles successfully liked Mixed Offence and Stall.
Venusaur: Very Underrated. It's a great alternative to leech + 3 attacks Celebi on some teams. It has worse natural bulk but sleep, better defensive typing and roar if you need it. Incredible at annoying stall given Dug cannot trap it and also using sleep to disrupt and reverse the opponents momentum. Make it fast (270+), give it some bulk to live Ice Beams in overgrow and dump the rest in Special attack and it will do you well. I hit my highest ever elo rank (1849) with this together with Sub-Liechi Aero (https://pokepast.es/1d0fbfeab3921666)
Breloom: A bit more 1 dimensional than the other fighters but Spore is amazing. Kinda needs pursuit support or to run HP-ghost, which means dropping another important option. I feel like Focus Punch is needed Breaking power, Sky Uppercut/Brick for immediate damage. Mach Punch is also incredible as it's one of the few things in the tier giving you some good insurance against DD-Tar and it allows you to "cheat" somewhat in the builder as a result. Still, Sub-Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic and SD are all things you can probably try. SD is something I actually want to try myself since Spore + SD + Mach punch sounds insane in late game situations.
I am a big fan of Sub-Punch sets. They feel the most consistent with the right support as they don't just get immediately Dugged. SD 3 Attack sets and CB are also interesting but I honestly don't think this thing needs the extra power, it needs to avoid getting trapped. Sub-Salac with weather clear sets can be crazy, and I think would be ban worthy if Tar didn't exist, but alas it does and so it needs the right conditions to thrive. There is also the Megahorn lottery issue also.
Medicham: Very frail so it generally has to be led. There is can win games in a few turns with the right clicks, but if this fails to get immediate value it also can fall flat on it's face a bit since, even after minimal chip, it basically dies to a light breeze and it's not really that fast.
Endure Salac Reversal sets are powers but, like with Salac-Hera, they need support.
Raikou: Still underrated IMO. Probably should be OU. It's a crazy pokemon when Dug isn't around and, being the fastest CM user in the tier, it has huge sweeping potential. Many teams are very close to getting 6-0 by this thing given that many checks like Tar and Meta are liable to getting chipped. It can also beat Blissey often with hax or if it gets a CM head-start.
Still inconsistent and so it is typically found on CM spam teams with lots of other inconsistent special sweepers. However, it feels like recently we have seen this thing used of loads of different styles successfully liked Mixed Offence and Stall.
Venusaur: Very Underrated. It's a great alternative to leech + 3 attacks Celebi on some teams. It has worse natural bulk but sleep, better defensive typing and roar if you need it. Incredible at annoying stall given Dug cannot trap it and also using sleep to disrupt and reverse the opponents momentum. Make it fast (270+), give it some bulk to live Ice Beams in overgrow and dump the rest in Special attack and it will do you well. I hit my highest ever elo rank (1849) with this together with Sub-Liechi Aero (https://pokepast.es/1d0fbfeab3921666)
Breloom: A bit more 1 dimensional than the other fighters but Spore is amazing. Kinda needs pursuit support or to run HP-ghost, which means dropping another important option. I feel like Focus Punch is needed Breaking power, Sky Uppercut/Brick for immediate damage. Mach Punch is also incredible as it's one of the few things in the tier giving you some good insurance against DD-Tar and it allows you to "cheat" somewhat in the builder as a result. Still, Sub-Seed, Stun Spore, Toxic and SD are all things you can probably try. SD is something I actually want to try myself since Spore + SD + Mach punch sounds insane in late game situations.
Forretress: Maybe one of my more controversial placements. I don't think Forre teams are good. At least not on the ladder. You just face too much wacky offence for a team with 2 mons in Forre and Suit-Tar which don't feel like they contribute hugely in many of these MUs. Even against other spike teams it often feels like you need to win a lot of SuitTar-Gar mind games and even if you trap them, they can live and apply enough offensive pressure to effectively win before you have eliminated Gar and their spikes.
There is also the massive inflexibility issue these teams have; given Forre demands lots of support and then has to jump out of the way of anything that has a strong attack, it feels like you kinda need wish Blissey and Pert as Forre can also be set up bait for physical attackers. It feels like there is always a huge informational disadvantage.
I might be wrong about this, and it seems like some other players do have success with it on ladder. I have just tried hard to make it work with little success and I am jaded by it. I think double spinner is the way to go, since it massively reduces the inflexibility problem and allows Forre to utilise its better qualities in the fact that it can pressure common spinners with HP-Bug to maintain spikes.
I also suspect it's a better pick in tournaments where people will bring more conservative and consistent team styles.
Gyarados: Unique Mon. Seems a little fishy at times (no pun intended). Has to chose between hitting Zap/Aero, Defensive Celebi or Gar and sometimes lacks the raw damage output to get it done. However, it is really good at spreading T-Wave on important targets and Taunt sets can get some amazing match ups. Probably need more experience with it though so take this with a pinch of salt.
Regice: Actually great but only on very specific teams. Bolt-Beam + Boom is just a great set of tools for offence and, in particular, special offence. Also completely shuts down Zap-Dug. Kinda hates sand though. I have run Rain Dance + Thunder on it and it was surprisingly good since it could break Milo often and also set up for sweepers like Kingdra.
Kingdra: Great sweeper/late game cleaner on Special Offence. Turns the tables on a lot of other endgame mons like DD-Tar and Aero. Also clears weather which can enable a lot of other broken stuff like Salac Hera. Strong, but only on certain teams.
Smeargle: The standard Spore+Spikes Smeargle feels pretty inconsistent, especially in the lead - feels more effective in the back like with the classic Salac Vaporeon lead for example. In any case, sleep is just strong so you kinda have to respect it. I also think DD-Pass sets are strong and often feel kinda broken/toxic to play against - they result in pretty stupid mind games with DD vs Spore and Taunt vs BP and if you guess wrong you can just lose on the spot. Overall its niche but you have to respect its toolkit - I am sure it can do more than we currently see.
There is also the massive inflexibility issue these teams have; given Forre demands lots of support and then has to jump out of the way of anything that has a strong attack, it feels like you kinda need wish Blissey and Pert as Forre can also be set up bait for physical attackers. It feels like there is always a huge informational disadvantage.
I might be wrong about this, and it seems like some other players do have success with it on ladder. I have just tried hard to make it work with little success and I am jaded by it. I think double spinner is the way to go, since it massively reduces the inflexibility problem and allows Forre to utilise its better qualities in the fact that it can pressure common spinners with HP-Bug to maintain spikes.
I also suspect it's a better pick in tournaments where people will bring more conservative and consistent team styles.
Gyarados: Unique Mon. Seems a little fishy at times (no pun intended). Has to chose between hitting Zap/Aero, Defensive Celebi or Gar and sometimes lacks the raw damage output to get it done. However, it is really good at spreading T-Wave on important targets and Taunt sets can get some amazing match ups. Probably need more experience with it though so take this with a pinch of salt.
Regice: Actually great but only on very specific teams. Bolt-Beam + Boom is just a great set of tools for offence and, in particular, special offence. Also completely shuts down Zap-Dug. Kinda hates sand though. I have run Rain Dance + Thunder on it and it was surprisingly good since it could break Milo often and also set up for sweepers like Kingdra.
Kingdra: Great sweeper/late game cleaner on Special Offence. Turns the tables on a lot of other endgame mons like DD-Tar and Aero. Also clears weather which can enable a lot of other broken stuff like Salac Hera. Strong, but only on certain teams.
Smeargle: The standard Spore+Spikes Smeargle feels pretty inconsistent, especially in the lead - feels more effective in the back like with the classic Salac Vaporeon lead for example. In any case, sleep is just strong so you kinda have to respect it. I also think DD-Pass sets are strong and often feel kinda broken/toxic to play against - they result in pretty stupid mind games with DD vs Spore and Taunt vs BP and if you guess wrong you can just lose on the spot. Overall its niche but you have to respect its toolkit - I am sure it can do more than we currently see.
Hariyama: Has amazing qualities but, similar to Forre, I struggle to make it work because it introduces too much inflexibility in the builder and requires too much support to get the best out of out it. Feel like it needs Wish, Tar for Sand, a spinner and another physical wall/Tar check. Then you end up with a team that relies on Yama too much for progress (get frozen by a Bliss IB and you are cooked). This inflexibility means a lot of Yama teams that I see have some issue (fighters, certain Suicune sets, lack of Phazing) that make them auto-lose in certain MUs or get overrun by offence.
Also, I don't think Knock Off does the work that many Yama advocates claim it does - smart players don't just let their Skarm get knocked and, if they are able to Wish up/heal their knocked off mon faster than Yama (which often needs Wishes itself) is able to force it in and damage it, it doesn't really make progress.
Again, these issues might be way more pronounced on the ladder with loads of offence running around - there is no doubt that Yama can be incredible in the right conditions and does do better into a lot of more standard and consistent teams.
One thing I will say for this mon is that, if you can fit Rock Slide for Zap, it does make a great lead.
Jynx: Almost always does something useful in the lead slot, be it sleeping something, trapping Bliss or setting up for Dug to trap Tar and clear weather. However, I think Jynx teams do feel a bit telegraphed at this point, always being some very offensive combo of Boom-spam and special threats. They also seem to struggle into Skarm. Will have to experiment more though as it has cool tools.
Cloyster: Struggle to find teams where this thing is genuinely better than Skarm, even if they are super offensive. Still, Spikes + Spin + Boom is great and so it will always be something you try fit onto teams.
Porygon2: Often feels like there is a pace mismatch between P2 and the threats it is trying to enable. This is a shame as P2 is definitely not a bad mon in a vacuum, and it is always nice to screw over Dug. There will probably always be a place for this on certain structures.
Ninjask: What more is there to say - stupid little fly. I think this thing should be banned just cause of what it does to the game. I also think this is stronger than what a lot of people give it credit for.
Most Jask teams you see on the ladder are pretty fishy, but I think this mon is pretty under-explored. I think there are better ways of using it than just leading it and hoping your opponent doesn't have the right phazers, but building these teams will require brain power, which most Jask players don't have. Having a 2 mon Jask+1 core in your team or having a bunch of mons that benefit from getting just +1 speed (making Jask harder to phaze) seem like better more flexible ways to use Jask on a team. I will definitely try this one day if it isn't ousted beforehand.
Marowak: Great speed pass recipient or Paralysis abuser. Hits hard but doesn't really have much use beyond that given it has no longevity.
Houndoom: I like this mon as it feels like it has a really solid niche as a Pursuit user that can punish Celebi/Jirachi and doesn't make sand. Enables things like Curse-Lax and Fighters really well. Guess it just depends on how much you like the teams it fits on, but I think they are genuinely solid. Also has a good movepool with like Beat-Up, Taunt, Wisp and Roar to screw over Cele-Pass. A surprising amount of teams can struggle to switch in against this (similar to Molt), but it does die to a light breeze on the physical side.
Donphan: An amazing rock resist and physical wall. Only reason to use it over Pert is Spin given its bad special bulk and worse overall typing so it needs huge support against Gar + Skarm. Forre/Mag + Donphan + Pursuit is a lot to fit. It can be great if you provide it.
Dragonite: I am a Dragonite believer. I think Heal Bell has huge potential and does give it a meaningful niche over Mence on some teams (plus different coverage options). Give it a try and you will be surprised. Use it in place of something like DD-Refresh Mence since it has better natural bulk to DD twice (lives Bliss/Pert IB a lot easier) and provides better support for teamates.
Also, I don't think Knock Off does the work that many Yama advocates claim it does - smart players don't just let their Skarm get knocked and, if they are able to Wish up/heal their knocked off mon faster than Yama (which often needs Wishes itself) is able to force it in and damage it, it doesn't really make progress.
Again, these issues might be way more pronounced on the ladder with loads of offence running around - there is no doubt that Yama can be incredible in the right conditions and does do better into a lot of more standard and consistent teams.
One thing I will say for this mon is that, if you can fit Rock Slide for Zap, it does make a great lead.
Jynx: Almost always does something useful in the lead slot, be it sleeping something, trapping Bliss or setting up for Dug to trap Tar and clear weather. However, I think Jynx teams do feel a bit telegraphed at this point, always being some very offensive combo of Boom-spam and special threats. They also seem to struggle into Skarm. Will have to experiment more though as it has cool tools.
Cloyster: Struggle to find teams where this thing is genuinely better than Skarm, even if they are super offensive. Still, Spikes + Spin + Boom is great and so it will always be something you try fit onto teams.
Porygon2: Often feels like there is a pace mismatch between P2 and the threats it is trying to enable. This is a shame as P2 is definitely not a bad mon in a vacuum, and it is always nice to screw over Dug. There will probably always be a place for this on certain structures.
Ninjask: What more is there to say - stupid little fly. I think this thing should be banned just cause of what it does to the game. I also think this is stronger than what a lot of people give it credit for.
Most Jask teams you see on the ladder are pretty fishy, but I think this mon is pretty under-explored. I think there are better ways of using it than just leading it and hoping your opponent doesn't have the right phazers, but building these teams will require brain power, which most Jask players don't have. Having a 2 mon Jask+1 core in your team or having a bunch of mons that benefit from getting just +1 speed (making Jask harder to phaze) seem like better more flexible ways to use Jask on a team. I will definitely try this one day if it isn't ousted beforehand.
Marowak: Great speed pass recipient or Paralysis abuser. Hits hard but doesn't really have much use beyond that given it has no longevity.
Houndoom: I like this mon as it feels like it has a really solid niche as a Pursuit user that can punish Celebi/Jirachi and doesn't make sand. Enables things like Curse-Lax and Fighters really well. Guess it just depends on how much you like the teams it fits on, but I think they are genuinely solid. Also has a good movepool with like Beat-Up, Taunt, Wisp and Roar to screw over Cele-Pass. A surprising amount of teams can struggle to switch in against this (similar to Molt), but it does die to a light breeze on the physical side.
Donphan: An amazing rock resist and physical wall. Only reason to use it over Pert is Spin given its bad special bulk and worse overall typing so it needs huge support against Gar + Skarm. Forre/Mag + Donphan + Pursuit is a lot to fit. It can be great if you provide it.
Dragonite: I am a Dragonite believer. I think Heal Bell has huge potential and does give it a meaningful niche over Mence on some teams (plus different coverage options). Give it a try and you will be surprised. Use it in place of something like DD-Refresh Mence since it has better natural bulk to DD twice (lives Bliss/Pert IB a lot easier) and provides better support for teamates.
Glalie: Not convinced by traditional Glalie spikes offence since, whenever you face the wrong leads, it feels like you have a huge mountain to climb. Have used in combo with Dug+Weather clear for the Tar Lead and it seemed pretty good - you generally either make spikes or remove their Tar with boom into Dug which feels like it makes Glalie a more consistent opener. It's still a Glalie however.
Blaziken: Open to having my mind changed but I am not sure I would use this over other fighters or mixed attackers. Just feel like other things do its job better. Will come back to it though as Blaziken is cool.
Armaldo: Useful as a Knock user/Lax counter on Stall. Very specific but I respect it.
Machamp: Maybe under-rating this but, I am not convinced by it. Feels like Yama without knock off. Can obviously pop-off in certain games though.
Umbreon: Another interesting one. I think there are good Umbreon teams, but whenever I use/face it, I feel like it just invites all the tier's scariest threats in. Probably another one not suited for the ladder.
Blaziken: Open to having my mind changed but I am not sure I would use this over other fighters or mixed attackers. Just feel like other things do its job better. Will come back to it though as Blaziken is cool.
Armaldo: Useful as a Knock user/Lax counter on Stall. Very specific but I respect it.
Machamp: Maybe under-rating this but, I am not convinced by it. Feels like Yama without knock off. Can obviously pop-off in certain games though.
Umbreon: Another interesting one. I think there are good Umbreon teams, but whenever I use/face it, I feel like it just invites all the tier's scariest threats in. Probably another one not suited for the ladder.
Alakazam: I think this has huge potential. Encore with base 120 Speed is a great tool. Can clean a lot of games up as well with Spikes support due to having great coverage. Just very hard to fit due to being frail.
Ursaring: A hilarious mon to use as it has such a ridiculous damage output with SD or CB. Guts also provides a nice way to soak status. Needs to be paired with Para/Speed Pass and Mag and you probably end up with a team that is too all in on the bear. Will return to it though, even just for a laugh.
Banette: Another fun mon to use from the Jimothy discography. Maybe too limited by its stats but it can definitely put in work. Hitting R1 with Banette would be a life goal achieved.
Ursaring: A hilarious mon to use as it has such a ridiculous damage output with SD or CB. Guts also provides a nice way to soak status. Needs to be paired with Para/Speed Pass and Mag and you probably end up with a team that is too all in on the bear. Will return to it though, even just for a laugh.
Banette: Another fun mon to use from the Jimothy discography. Maybe too limited by its stats but it can definitely put in work. Hitting R1 with Banette would be a life goal achieved.
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