I am more than happy for there to be discussion on NU banning partial trapping while UU figures out whatever it's doing, here is a quick survey on general tier health and PT so we can get a little data on how people feel: Survey link
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Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
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Lower Tiers RBY NU Hub
- Thread starter Sabelette
- Start date
i never saw it much, but i remember in old nu thinking fspin zard + back moth practically "won" every scenario due to 70% of the time pivoting against your losing matchups
Hey folks, I'm back in the wake of RBY NU Open IV with usage stats for you all! There are some interesting trends here, particularly compared to the team tours that just finished, so let's jump right in.
The notable points here I think are an absolute cratering of Moltres' winrate compared to recent tours (55% across NUCL/ALTPL to 40% here), which we can perhaps blame on the APT changes disturbing the most popular set, and a creep up in the success of less bulky Water-types (both Poliwhirl and Golduck saw success in limited appearances, and Seadra saw some modest improvement from a 43% winrate to 51%). There was also a fairly significant decline in usage for Poliwrath and Fearow, both of which dropped roughly 10%.
In terms of leads, there were very few surprises (although I still really want to know what Blastoise lead was supposed to do Amaranth). The notable change here is the significant drop-off in Magneton lead, which cut in half from my last set of usage stats.
There are a lot of these, so I won't get into too much detail, but the most interesting meta trend for me this tour was the success of the Blastoise/Poliwrath duo, which Toxin Boost in particular often piloted with success.
If there's anything else you'd like to know about (moves, teammates, etc) ping me and I'll see what I can dig up. Discuss!
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 151 | 94.38% | 49.01% |
| 2 | Charizard | 123 | 76.88% | 47.97% |
| 3 | Venomoth | 99 | 61.88% | 52.53% |
| 4 | Poliwrath | 76 | 47.50% | 50.00% |
| 5 | Magneton | 60 | 37.50% | 46.67% |
| 6 | Seadra | 58 | 36.25% | 51.72% |
| 7 | Fearow | 53 | 33.12% | 49.06% |
| 8 | Blastoise | 46 | 28.75% | 45.65% |
| 9 | Raticate | 45 | 28.12% | 51.11% |
| 10 | Moltres | 40 | 25.00% | 40.00% |
| 11 | Kabutops | 36 | 22.50% | 44.44% |
| 12 | Graveler | 24 | 15.00% | 45.83% |
| 13 | Arcanine | 19 | 11.88% | 42.11% |
| 14 | Aerodactyl | 14 | 8.75% | 50.00% |
| 14 | Porygon | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
| 16 | Nidoking | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 17 | Golduck | 12 | 7.50% | 66.67% |
| 18 | Poliwhirl | 10 | 6.25% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Exeggcute | 6 | 3.75% | 50.00% |
| 19 | Venusaur | 6 | 3.75% | 0.00% |
| 21 | Sandslash | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 22 | Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 23 | Wigglytuff | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Nidoqueen | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Staryu | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
Code:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Charizard | 45 | 28.12% | 51.11% |
| 2 | Venomoth | 34 | 21.25% | 47.06% |
| 3 | Arcanine | 17 | 10.62% | 35.29% |
| 4 | Mr. Mime | 14 | 8.75% | 42.86% |
| 5 | Poliwrath | 10 | 6.25% | 70.00% |
| 5 | Moltres | 10 | 6.25% | 40.00% |
| 7 | Magneton | 9 | 5.62% | 66.67% |
| 8 | Poliwhirl | 8 | 5.00% | 75.00% |
| 9 | Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 10 | Fearow | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 11 | Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 11 | Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 11 | Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 11 | Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 11 | Exeggcute | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 11 | Porygon | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |+ ---- + ---------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ---------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Mr. Mime / Charizard | 118 | 73.75% | 47.46% |
| 2 | Mr. Mime / Venomoth | 94 | 58.75% | 51.06% |
| 3 | Mr. Mime / Poliwrath | 74 | 46.25% | 50.00% |
| 4 | Charizard / Venomoth | 73 | 45.62% | 52.05% |
| 5 | Charizard / Poliwrath | 64 | 40.00% | 48.44% |
| 6 | Mr. Mime / Magneton | 58 | 36.25% | 48.28% |
| 7 | Seadra / Mr. Mime | 54 | 33.75% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Mr. Mime / Fearow | 49 | 30.62% | 44.90% |
| 9 | Charizard / Magneton | 48 | 30.00% | 47.92% |
| 10 | Mr. Mime / Blastoise | 46 | 28.75% | 45.65% |
| 11 | Seadra / Charizard | 45 | 28.12% | 53.33% |
| 11 | Charizard / Fearow | 45 | 28.12% | 46.67% |
| 13 | Mr. Mime / Raticate | 40 | 25.00% | 47.50% |
| 14 | Venomoth / Magneton | 39 | 24.38% | 46.15% |
| 15 | Seadra / Venomoth | 37 | 23.12% | 54.05% |
| 16 | Kabutops / Mr. Mime | 35 | 21.88% | 45.71% |
| 16 | Charizard / Blastoise | 35 | 21.88% | 42.86% |
| 18 | Moltres / Mr. Mime | 34 | 21.25% | 35.29% |
| 19 | Poliwrath / Venomoth | 33 | 20.62% | 54.55% |
| 20 | Blastoise / Venomoth | 31 | 19.38% | 45.16% |
| 21 | Charizard / Raticate | 30 | 18.75% | 43.33% |
| 22 | Poliwrath / Magneton | 29 | 18.12% | 48.28% |
| 23 | Fearow / Venomoth | 27 | 16.88% | 55.56% |
| 23 | Kabutops / Venomoth | 27 | 16.88% | 44.44% |
| 23 | Fearow / Poliwrath | 27 | 16.88% | 40.74% |
| 26 | Kabutops / Charizard | 26 | 16.25% | 42.31% |
| 27 | Raticate / Venomoth | 25 | 15.62% | 56.00% |
| 28 | Mr. Mime / Graveler | 24 | 15.00% | 45.83% |
| 29 | Moltres / Venomoth | 23 | 14.38% | 56.52% |
| 30 | Seadra / Poliwrath | 21 | 13.12% | 61.90% |
| 30 | Raticate / Poliwrath | 21 | 13.12% | 47.62% |
| 30 | Moltres / Charizard | 21 | 13.12% | 33.33% |
| 33 | Moltres / Seadra | 19 | 11.88% | 42.11% |
| 34 | Seadra / Raticate | 18 | 11.25% | 61.11% |
| 34 | Fearow / Magneton | 18 | 11.25% | 55.56% |
| 34 | Charizard / Graveler | 18 | 11.25% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Seadra / Magneton | 18 | 11.25% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Raticate / Blastoise | 18 | 11.25% | 44.44% |
| 34 | Arcanine / Mr. Mime | 18 | 11.25% | 38.89% |
| 40 | Poliwrath / Graveler | 16 | 10.00% | 43.75% |
| 40 | Kabutops / Magneton | 16 | 10.00% | 37.50% |
| 40 | Moltres / Poliwrath | 16 | 10.00% | 25.00% |
| 43 | Arcanine / Charizard | 15 | 9.38% | 46.67% |
| 43 | Kabutops / Poliwrath | 15 | 9.38% | 46.67% |
| 43 | Fearow / Graveler | 15 | 9.38% | 40.00% |
| 46 | Moltres / Magneton | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
| 46 | Porygon / Mr. Mime | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
| 48 | Graveler / Venomoth | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 48 | Seadra / Fearow | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 48 | Moltres / Fearow | 13 | 8.12% | 46.15% |
| 48 | Magneton / Blastoise | 13 | 8.12% | 38.46% |
| 52 | Mr. Mime / Golduck | 12 | 7.50% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Mr. Mime / Aerodactyl | 12 | 7.50% | 41.67% |
| 52 | Arcanine / Poliwrath | 12 | 7.50% | 41.67% |
| 52 | Seadra / Blastoise | 12 | 7.50% | 33.33% |
| 56 | Nidoking / Mr. Mime | 11 | 6.88% | 63.64% |
| 56 | Poliwrath / Blastoise | 11 | 6.88% | 54.55% |
| 56 | Fearow / Blastoise | 11 | 6.88% | 54.55% |
| 56 | Raticate / Aerodactyl | 11 | 6.88% | 45.45% |
| 60 | Golduck / Charizard | 10 | 6.25% | 70.00% |
| 60 | Raticate / Fearow | 10 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
| 60 | Raticate / Magneton | 10 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
| 63 | Poliwhirl / Mr. Mime | 9 | 5.62% | 77.78% |
| 63 | Arcanine / Venomoth | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Moltres / Raticate | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Porygon / Venomoth | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Seadra / Kabutops | 9 | 5.62% | 33.33% |
| 68 | Golduck / Venomoth | 8 | 5.00% | 75.00% |
| 68 | Moltres / Porygon | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Kabutops / Fearow | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Venomoth / Aerodactyl | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Seadra / Graveler | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Nidoking / Venomoth | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Charizard / Aerodactyl | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Porygon / Charizard | 8 | 5.00% | 12.50% |
| 76 | Blastoise / Graveler | 7 | 4.38% | 85.71% |
| 76 | Arcanine / Seadra | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Kabutops / Golduck | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Nidoking / Charizard | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Aerodactyl / Blastoise | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Moltres / Graveler | 7 | 4.38% | 28.57% |
| 82 | Arcanine / Kabutops | 6 | 3.75% | 33.33% |
| 82 | Mr. Mime / Venusaur | 6 | 3.75% | 0.00% |
| 84 | Poliwhirl / Charizard | 5 | 3.12% | 80.00% |
| 84 | Exeggcute / Mr. Mime | 5 | 3.12% | 60.00% |
| 84 | Arcanine / Blastoise | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Porygon / Poliwrath | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Moltres / Blastoise | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Charizard / Venusaur | 5 | 3.12% | 0.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Fearow | 4 | 2.50% | 100.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Kabutops / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Poliwrath / Aerodactyl | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Poliwrath | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Mr. Mime / Sandslash | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Aerodactyl | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Poliwrath | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Kabutops / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Kabutops | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Porygon / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Nidoking | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Porygon / Magneton | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Arcanine / Fearow | 4 | 2.50% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Poliwhirl | 3 | 1.88% | 100.00% |
| 106 | Golduck / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Charizard / Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Mr. Mime / Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Poliwhirl / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Aerodactyl | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Aerodactyl | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Fearow | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Charizard | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Arcanine / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Seadra / Golduck | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Kabutops | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Seadra | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Blastoise | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Porygon / Fearow | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Kabutops / Venusaur | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Seadra / Venusaur | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Fearow / Aerodactyl | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Sandslash | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Seadra / Gastly | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Nidoking / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Poliwhirl | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Gastly / Raticate | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Blastoise | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Raticate | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Seadra / Aerodactyl | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Charizard / Sandslash | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Blastoise | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Kabutops | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Arcanine | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Venusaur / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Magneton / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Golduck / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Raticate / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Venusaur / Magneton | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Magneton | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Mr. Mime | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Charizard | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Porygon | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Arcanine / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Poliwrath / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Aerodactyl / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Raticate / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Sandslash / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Sandslash | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Charizard | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Mr. Mime | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Golduck | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Arcanine / Gastly | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Gastly | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Fearow | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Porygon / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Poliwhirl / Kabutops | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Sandslash | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Porygon | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kingler / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Charizard / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kingler / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Poliwrath / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Charizard / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Seadra / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Exeggcute | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Exeggcute | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Kabutops | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Pinsir / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Aerodactyl / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Poliwhirl / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Venusaur / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Sandslash / Fearow | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Mr. Mime | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Charizard | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Fearow / Venusaur | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Porygon / Venusaur | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ---------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Mr. Mime / Charizard | 118 | 73.75% | 47.46% |
| 2 | Mr. Mime / Venomoth | 94 | 58.75% | 51.06% |
| 3 | Mr. Mime / Poliwrath | 74 | 46.25% | 50.00% |
| 4 | Charizard / Venomoth | 73 | 45.62% | 52.05% |
| 5 | Charizard / Poliwrath | 64 | 40.00% | 48.44% |
| 6 | Mr. Mime / Magneton | 58 | 36.25% | 48.28% |
| 7 | Seadra / Mr. Mime | 54 | 33.75% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Mr. Mime / Fearow | 49 | 30.62% | 44.90% |
| 9 | Charizard / Magneton | 48 | 30.00% | 47.92% |
| 10 | Mr. Mime / Blastoise | 46 | 28.75% | 45.65% |
| 11 | Seadra / Charizard | 45 | 28.12% | 53.33% |
| 11 | Charizard / Fearow | 45 | 28.12% | 46.67% |
| 13 | Mr. Mime / Raticate | 40 | 25.00% | 47.50% |
| 14 | Venomoth / Magneton | 39 | 24.38% | 46.15% |
| 15 | Seadra / Venomoth | 37 | 23.12% | 54.05% |
| 16 | Kabutops / Mr. Mime | 35 | 21.88% | 45.71% |
| 16 | Charizard / Blastoise | 35 | 21.88% | 42.86% |
| 18 | Moltres / Mr. Mime | 34 | 21.25% | 35.29% |
| 19 | Poliwrath / Venomoth | 33 | 20.62% | 54.55% |
| 20 | Blastoise / Venomoth | 31 | 19.38% | 45.16% |
| 21 | Charizard / Raticate | 30 | 18.75% | 43.33% |
| 22 | Poliwrath / Magneton | 29 | 18.12% | 48.28% |
| 23 | Fearow / Venomoth | 27 | 16.88% | 55.56% |
| 23 | Kabutops / Venomoth | 27 | 16.88% | 44.44% |
| 23 | Fearow / Poliwrath | 27 | 16.88% | 40.74% |
| 26 | Kabutops / Charizard | 26 | 16.25% | 42.31% |
| 27 | Raticate / Venomoth | 25 | 15.62% | 56.00% |
| 28 | Mr. Mime / Graveler | 24 | 15.00% | 45.83% |
| 29 | Moltres / Venomoth | 23 | 14.38% | 56.52% |
| 30 | Seadra / Poliwrath | 21 | 13.12% | 61.90% |
| 30 | Raticate / Poliwrath | 21 | 13.12% | 47.62% |
| 30 | Moltres / Charizard | 21 | 13.12% | 33.33% |
| 33 | Moltres / Seadra | 19 | 11.88% | 42.11% |
| 34 | Seadra / Raticate | 18 | 11.25% | 61.11% |
| 34 | Fearow / Magneton | 18 | 11.25% | 55.56% |
| 34 | Charizard / Graveler | 18 | 11.25% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Seadra / Magneton | 18 | 11.25% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Raticate / Blastoise | 18 | 11.25% | 44.44% |
| 34 | Arcanine / Mr. Mime | 18 | 11.25% | 38.89% |
| 40 | Poliwrath / Graveler | 16 | 10.00% | 43.75% |
| 40 | Kabutops / Magneton | 16 | 10.00% | 37.50% |
| 40 | Moltres / Poliwrath | 16 | 10.00% | 25.00% |
| 43 | Arcanine / Charizard | 15 | 9.38% | 46.67% |
| 43 | Kabutops / Poliwrath | 15 | 9.38% | 46.67% |
| 43 | Fearow / Graveler | 15 | 9.38% | 40.00% |
| 46 | Moltres / Magneton | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
| 46 | Porygon / Mr. Mime | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
| 48 | Graveler / Venomoth | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 48 | Seadra / Fearow | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 48 | Moltres / Fearow | 13 | 8.12% | 46.15% |
| 48 | Magneton / Blastoise | 13 | 8.12% | 38.46% |
| 52 | Mr. Mime / Golduck | 12 | 7.50% | 66.67% |
| 52 | Mr. Mime / Aerodactyl | 12 | 7.50% | 41.67% |
| 52 | Arcanine / Poliwrath | 12 | 7.50% | 41.67% |
| 52 | Seadra / Blastoise | 12 | 7.50% | 33.33% |
| 56 | Nidoking / Mr. Mime | 11 | 6.88% | 63.64% |
| 56 | Poliwrath / Blastoise | 11 | 6.88% | 54.55% |
| 56 | Fearow / Blastoise | 11 | 6.88% | 54.55% |
| 56 | Raticate / Aerodactyl | 11 | 6.88% | 45.45% |
| 60 | Golduck / Charizard | 10 | 6.25% | 70.00% |
| 60 | Raticate / Fearow | 10 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
| 60 | Raticate / Magneton | 10 | 6.25% | 50.00% |
| 63 | Poliwhirl / Mr. Mime | 9 | 5.62% | 77.78% |
| 63 | Arcanine / Venomoth | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Moltres / Raticate | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Porygon / Venomoth | 9 | 5.62% | 44.44% |
| 63 | Seadra / Kabutops | 9 | 5.62% | 33.33% |
| 68 | Golduck / Venomoth | 8 | 5.00% | 75.00% |
| 68 | Moltres / Porygon | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Kabutops / Fearow | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Venomoth / Aerodactyl | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Seadra / Graveler | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Nidoking / Venomoth | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Charizard / Aerodactyl | 8 | 5.00% | 50.00% |
| 68 | Porygon / Charizard | 8 | 5.00% | 12.50% |
| 76 | Blastoise / Graveler | 7 | 4.38% | 85.71% |
| 76 | Arcanine / Seadra | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Kabutops / Golduck | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Nidoking / Charizard | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Aerodactyl / Blastoise | 7 | 4.38% | 42.86% |
| 76 | Moltres / Graveler | 7 | 4.38% | 28.57% |
| 82 | Arcanine / Kabutops | 6 | 3.75% | 33.33% |
| 82 | Mr. Mime / Venusaur | 6 | 3.75% | 0.00% |
| 84 | Poliwhirl / Charizard | 5 | 3.12% | 80.00% |
| 84 | Exeggcute / Mr. Mime | 5 | 3.12% | 60.00% |
| 84 | Arcanine / Blastoise | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Porygon / Poliwrath | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Moltres / Blastoise | 5 | 3.12% | 40.00% |
| 84 | Charizard / Venusaur | 5 | 3.12% | 0.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Fearow | 4 | 2.50% | 100.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Kabutops / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Poliwrath / Aerodactyl | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Poliwhirl / Poliwrath | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Raticate | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Mr. Mime / Sandslash | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Aerodactyl | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Nidoking / Poliwrath | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Kabutops / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 50.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Kabutops | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Porygon / Blastoise | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Moltres / Nidoking | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Porygon / Magneton | 4 | 2.50% | 25.00% |
| 90 | Arcanine / Fearow | 4 | 2.50% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Poliwhirl | 3 | 1.88% | 100.00% |
| 106 | Golduck / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Charizard / Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Mr. Mime / Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Poliwhirl / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Aerodactyl | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Aerodactyl | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Fearow | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Charizard | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
| 106 | Arcanine / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Seadra / Golduck | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Kabutops | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Seadra | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Exeggcute / Blastoise | 3 | 1.88% | 33.33% |
| 106 | Porygon / Fearow | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Kabutops / Venusaur | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Seadra / Venusaur | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 106 | Nidoking / Magneton | 3 | 1.88% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Fearow / Aerodactyl | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Sandslash | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Seadra / Gastly | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Nidoking / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 100.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Poliwhirl | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Gastly / Raticate | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Blastoise | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Poliwhirl / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Raticate | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Seadra | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Seadra / Aerodactyl | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Charizard / Sandslash | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Blastoise | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Sandslash / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Golduck | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Kabutops | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Exeggcute / Venomoth | 2 | 1.25% | 50.00% |
| 124 | Porygon / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Arcanine | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Venusaur / Poliwrath | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Moltres / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Magneton / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Golduck / Venusaur | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Raticate / Graveler | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Venusaur / Magneton | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Magneton | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Mr. Mime | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Wigglytuff / Charizard | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 124 | Arcanine / Porygon | 2 | 1.25% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Arcanine / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Poliwrath / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Aerodactyl / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Raticate / Primeape | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Sandslash / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Sandslash | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Charizard | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Mr. Mime | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoqueen / Golduck | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Arcanine / Gastly | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Gastly | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Fearow | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Porygon / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Poliwhirl / Kabutops | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Sandslash | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Porygon | 1 | 0.62% | 100.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kingler / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Charizard / Kingler | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kingler / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Poliwrath / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Charizard / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Seadra / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Mr. Mime / Magmar | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Golduck / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Exeggcute | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Exeggcute / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Exeggcute | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Kabutops / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Kabutops | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Moltres / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Pinsir / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Nidoking / Pinsir | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Aerodactyl / Magneton | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Gastly / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Poliwhirl / Aerodactyl | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Venusaur / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Sandslash / Fearow | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Venomoth | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Wigglytuff / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Poliwrath | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Raticate | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Mr. Mime | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Charizard | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Staryu / Blastoise | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Fearow / Venusaur | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
| 160 | Porygon / Venusaur | 1 | 0.62% | 0.00% |
If there's anything else you'd like to know about (moves, teammates, etc) ping me and I'll see what I can dig up. Discuss!
opp was leading with seven trillion fires on average and i wanted my team to have blastoise and not poliwrath for some reason or another. i wanted to run that combo of 6 and i wanted a water to be leading so it fell to mr. toise. something like that
you guys are stressing a bit much about Lines or whatever when you really just need to load the water type into the fire type to win in this tier
fuck it lets post some meta takes. comparing my usage to the overall as a base, though my usages were a bit influenced by what i thought would do well into my opps (i prepped for everyone r3 and onwards, dont remember if i prepped for r2 but probably) and also the sample size is just small (11 games)
Overall
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 151 | 94.38% | 49.01% |
Amaranth
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 11 | 100.00% | 90.91% |
Nothing checks it except itself and sort of Magneton. It bullies the best/most common sleepers in the tier and it's literally always good. Sort of an OU Tauros situation where you could probably go mimeless but I don't really see the advantage in dropping a mon that trades so overwhelmingly positive vs the rest of the tier and doesn't really have answers
Overall
| 2 | Charizard | 123 | 76.88% | 47.97% |
Amaranth
| 5 | Charizard | 5 | 45.45% | 100.00% |
Zard is very strong and I think #2 or #3 with Venomoth, but I ended up loading him a bit less than that as I didn't find the prospects of loading into likely mirrors or double water games too appealing, and people understandably bring a lot of both of these things. Zard mirrors tend to be very "guess what I'm thinking"-y or otherwise speedtie coinflippy in nature, and I trusted myself to find active advantages with other builds rather than having to leave it up to luck in that way. I don't really think 75%+ is warranted tbh, folding to fat Waters and any Rock coverage from grounds and any TWave is a lot of counterplay overall, but certainly it's a strong lead and it also runs away with games like little else with the SD set in the back. It's also just a lot easier to handle when it's expected, I'd recommend default Zard loaders to think about mixing it up a little more.
Overall
| 3 | Venomoth | 99 | 61.88% | 52.53% |
Amaranth
| 2 | Venomoth | 6 | 54.55% | 83.33% |
This mon is amazing - fat slow waters completely run this tier and Venomoth gets to take an OHKO when they come in. But I also think Venomoth gets a bazillion chances to do its thing throughout the game and NU isn't necessarily about rushing sleep like other tiers may be - I think a lot of people have this idea that they want to get Sleep off and then sleepsack their Venomoth to keep more valuable mons up, but I don't actually think that's very necessary as Stun Spore ensures it stays valuable even in sharp lategame situations where its typing seemingly exposes it - but the reality is that taking a 90% chunk from Fire Blast in exchange for Stun Spore into Psychic is often more than fine. Keeping your Venomoth awake also prevents opps from being able to leverage their own sleeping pokemon as a sack / momentum reset, since you then threaten resleep. This is why I really wasn't fussed about Blastoise lead and it looked quite fine to me - I'm happy to welcome enemy Veno early game as I think the pokemon always gets value whether early or mid or late, and I don't really feel at a disadvantage giving enemy Veno the first chance at doing stuff - I know mine will always find a spot to get value later, it's just too good at doing that. The only problem is Mime but being able to lure and Stun Mime on the switchin can be very nice in itself
Overall
| 4 | Poliwrath | 76 | 47.50% | 50.00% |
Amaranth
| 9 | Poliwrath | 3 | 27.27% | 100.00% |
Don't really rate this guy as highly as everyone else seems to, it's just a slower blastoise that gets farmed by the move Psychic but gets to learn Hypnosis as a tradeoff. I don't think this tradeoff is very good as Hypnosis misses a lot. It has a niche as something that exploits lead Fires to click the sleep button, but I think Poliwhirl is even better at doing that because the follow up that it threatens is that much scarier. So that leaves Poliwrath in a sort of middle position where it's not my preferred bulky water for midgame situations (Blastoise and Kabutops typings are so much better), it's not my preferred water for punishing Fire leads (Poliwhirl is), and it's definitely not my preferred solo sleeper (Venomoth is extremely reliable and scares Mime entrance thru Stun more effectively). So then it really gets use in situations where I want very specific compression of some of these roles in one slot, or maybe if I'm not feeling like risking the Whirler or something like that. It's obviously good, I just don't find him worth slotting in half my teams though
Overall
| 5 | Magneton | 60 | 37.50% | 46.67% |
Amaranth
| 4 | Magneton | 5 | 45.45% | 80.00% |
People are getting apprehensive of loading this a little bit maybe, but it's still the nuts whenever it doesn't hit into grounds. And the grounds themselves are kinda doodoo, they definitely wouldn't be getting any use if not for this guy, you can usually build to lure or exploit them with the other five. You can see from overall usages that grounds just aren't very common even still, so even as a pure fish this mon has quite a lot of value. It's sort of a 'second Mime' situation where, if you aren't running a ground, Magneton helps you stabilize against enemy Magneton too - so there's a lot of incentive to load this in that sense too. I like Magneton and I like even greeding Magneton as a pure fish without particularly covering for the Ground match ups from time to time
Overall
| 6 | Seadra | 58 | 36.25% | 51.72% |
| 7 | Fearow | 53 | 33.12% | 49.06% |
| 9 | Raticate | 45 | 28.12% | 51.11% |
Amaranth
| 14 | Raticate | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 15 | Seadra | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Fearow | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
I don't get the hype at all for these guys. Seadra folds to Rest Waters, which are viable (because they eat seadra up for breakfast) no matter how much gastlies or whoever else tries to convince you otherwise. If you have high Seadra I WILL load Rest and I WILL enjoy the freewin thank you very much. And even aside from that issue, it just doesn't do much to justify itself significantly above other Water options for me. I'll take EQ to hit Magneton + more bulk to switch into Fires + access to SToss and Counter etc. any day. Fearow is a very similar story - sure it's scary and it clicks Agility and oooo big guy with strong attack and a lot of speed or whatever, but is there really such a need to risk the Kabutops match up? To me it doesn't seem dominant enough at trading into everything else to be worth running that risk. But of course my Fearow is so pathetically low that I can afford to bring it once in a while because I can expect not to run into many Kabus (and even then I'm still spooked bc they may well be running Graveler for my Magnetons!)
Raticate is a bit of a different situation, because it's much more match up neutral thanks to Super Fang, but I *hate* the speed tier being under Charizard and Fearow given how much everyone loads these two. Funnily enough, it is probably a great bring into me given that I don't rate these two nearly as much as the rest of the playerbase. But I'd still rather put other guys in my builder because everyone else *is* loving those 100 speed dudes and I'm not eager to risk running my rat into that.
Overall
| 8 | Blastoise | 46 | 28.75% | 45.65% |
| 11 | Kabutops | 36 | 22.50% | 44.44% |
| 17 | Golduck | 12 | 7.50% | 66.67% |
| 18 | Poliwhirl | 10 | 6.25% | 80.00% |
Amaranth
| 3 | Kabutops | 5 | 45.45% | 100.00% |
| 6 | Blastoise | 4 | 36.36% | 75.00% |
| 7 | Golduck | 4 | 36.36% | 100.00% |
| 8 | Poliwhirl | 3 | 27.27% | 100.00% |
The flipside of my lower Seadra and Poliwrath: I get to use all these cool guys instead. I'll go to war for Kabutops especially and also Blastoise to a lesser degree: these guys are MEATY in a tier where being meaty and dying in 4 hits instead of 3 (or 3 instead of 2) matters a lot. Kabutops especially I think is severely underrated, Slash is really strong and farming Fearows is just so good, without sacrificing all that much in the other MUs (you'll want a second and maybe a third water, but that's hardly a sacrifice with so many great ones in the tier and no real punish to water stacking outside of Magneton). Golduck and Poliwhirl are a bit memey, and I don't think they're amazing - the usage for Golduck especially certainly overrepresents how good I think it is - but they can lead the game down some EXTREMELY forcing lines through Amnesia and really snowball a small tempo lead into a huge material lead as opponent desperately scrambles to stop the rampage. Or, they trade for a fat SToss water one-for-one and nothing really happens. Could go either way. In any case, it's funny that I singlehandedly make up 1/3rd of all Golduck uses and nearly 1/3rd of all Poliwhirls.
Overall
| 10 | Moltres | 40 | 25.00% | 40.00% |
| 13 | Arcanine | 19 | 11.88% | 42.11% |
Amaranth
| 10 | Moltres | 2 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| 17 | Arcanine | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
These are inferior Fires to Charizard in a majority of situations. I only led Moltres against Chungler, twice, to specifically snipe the Venomoth match up, because Fire Blast has strong odds to OHKO which forces it out completely... except he just stayed and got the tie lmao. Don't even remember when I loaded dog. They only really have a place either over Charizard (but Zard is pretty clearly better), or alongside him (but do you really need two fires? what match up are you really trying to punish?) so I don't think they're that great. I just very rarely felt compelled to bother with either of them, like I said in the Zard paragraph it can be appealing to dodge the stupid mindgamey mirrors by creating an asymmetry but that aside I don't really care for these guys
Overall
| 12 | Graveler | 24 | 15.00% | 45.83% |
| 16 | Nidoking | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 21 | Sandslash | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
Amaranth
| 11 | Nidoking | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 13 | Sandslash | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| x | Graveler | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
Lol, zero Graveler, lmao. I kind of hate Nidoking, but I think it's likely the best Ground in the tier - outspeeding most waters and having TBolt to smite them is really so much better than either of the slow guys. Sandslash + Kabu/Aero is role decompressing Graveler into two pokemon with better stats and ability to trade with stuff, and that's where my two Slash uses come from. I haven't really found myself wanting to Graveler even though the compression is appealing, because I think Waters are really good and I valued the higher pressure + not-being-ohkoed-by-Surf capabilities of the other two. I also think Fearow is not all that great + already pushed out of relevance by my scout thanks to near 50% Kabutops, so that part of Graveler's appeal is nearly entirely lost on me. It still looks fine though, I just happened to prefer other Grounds in the specific MUs I found. 25% overall Ground rate definitely seems a bit sus to me - Magneton is powerful, you guys need more answers to him even though it sometimes sucks to use them. Sneaky positive of all of these guys - switching on weakened+paralyzed Mimes going for TBolt or TWave (Sandslash especially is great at this while the other two get 2hkoed by Psychic and might not want to try their luck)
Overall
| 14 | Aerodactyl | 14 | 8.75% | 50.00% |
| 14 | Porygon | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
Amaranth
| 12 | Porygon | 2 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| x | Aerodactyl | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
These guys are okay or whatever. Hard to justify over the actual good mons in the tier, but not terrible. Porygon clicks Thunder Wave (never bad) and Aerodactyl is fast with a great MU on backzard.
Overall
| 19 | Exeggcute | 6 | 3.75% | 50.00% |
| 19 | Venusaur | 6 | 3.75% | 0.00% |
| 22 | Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
Amaranth
| 18 | Gastly | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
| x | Exeggcute | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| x | Venusaur | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
Bad memes, do not use. Venomoth clears you, Venomoth rinses you, Venomoth lives in your walls. I once thought Gastly was an OK counterbring to Raticate lovers but I don't even think that's a legitimate use case anymore. Just Moth for sleep, the small theoretical upsides for these guys are not worth everything that they give up. Venu's decent MUs where it gains some momentum (Magneton, basically all Waters) are ruined by it giving that momentum right back to some very terrible ones (Charizard, other Fires, Fearow, even Venomoth himself). No Stun Spore threat really lets them walk all over you.
Overall
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 151 | 94.38% | 49.01% |
Amaranth
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 11 | 100.00% | 90.91% |
Nothing checks it except itself and sort of Magneton. It bullies the best/most common sleepers in the tier and it's literally always good. Sort of an OU Tauros situation where you could probably go mimeless but I don't really see the advantage in dropping a mon that trades so overwhelmingly positive vs the rest of the tier and doesn't really have answers
Overall
| 2 | Charizard | 123 | 76.88% | 47.97% |
Amaranth
| 5 | Charizard | 5 | 45.45% | 100.00% |
Zard is very strong and I think #2 or #3 with Venomoth, but I ended up loading him a bit less than that as I didn't find the prospects of loading into likely mirrors or double water games too appealing, and people understandably bring a lot of both of these things. Zard mirrors tend to be very "guess what I'm thinking"-y or otherwise speedtie coinflippy in nature, and I trusted myself to find active advantages with other builds rather than having to leave it up to luck in that way. I don't really think 75%+ is warranted tbh, folding to fat Waters and any Rock coverage from grounds and any TWave is a lot of counterplay overall, but certainly it's a strong lead and it also runs away with games like little else with the SD set in the back. It's also just a lot easier to handle when it's expected, I'd recommend default Zard loaders to think about mixing it up a little more.
Overall
| 3 | Venomoth | 99 | 61.88% | 52.53% |
Amaranth
| 2 | Venomoth | 6 | 54.55% | 83.33% |
This mon is amazing - fat slow waters completely run this tier and Venomoth gets to take an OHKO when they come in. But I also think Venomoth gets a bazillion chances to do its thing throughout the game and NU isn't necessarily about rushing sleep like other tiers may be - I think a lot of people have this idea that they want to get Sleep off and then sleepsack their Venomoth to keep more valuable mons up, but I don't actually think that's very necessary as Stun Spore ensures it stays valuable even in sharp lategame situations where its typing seemingly exposes it - but the reality is that taking a 90% chunk from Fire Blast in exchange for Stun Spore into Psychic is often more than fine. Keeping your Venomoth awake also prevents opps from being able to leverage their own sleeping pokemon as a sack / momentum reset, since you then threaten resleep. This is why I really wasn't fussed about Blastoise lead and it looked quite fine to me - I'm happy to welcome enemy Veno early game as I think the pokemon always gets value whether early or mid or late, and I don't really feel at a disadvantage giving enemy Veno the first chance at doing stuff - I know mine will always find a spot to get value later, it's just too good at doing that. The only problem is Mime but being able to lure and Stun Mime on the switchin can be very nice in itself
Overall
| 4 | Poliwrath | 76 | 47.50% | 50.00% |
Amaranth
| 9 | Poliwrath | 3 | 27.27% | 100.00% |
Don't really rate this guy as highly as everyone else seems to, it's just a slower blastoise that gets farmed by the move Psychic but gets to learn Hypnosis as a tradeoff. I don't think this tradeoff is very good as Hypnosis misses a lot. It has a niche as something that exploits lead Fires to click the sleep button, but I think Poliwhirl is even better at doing that because the follow up that it threatens is that much scarier. So that leaves Poliwrath in a sort of middle position where it's not my preferred bulky water for midgame situations (Blastoise and Kabutops typings are so much better), it's not my preferred water for punishing Fire leads (Poliwhirl is), and it's definitely not my preferred solo sleeper (Venomoth is extremely reliable and scares Mime entrance thru Stun more effectively). So then it really gets use in situations where I want very specific compression of some of these roles in one slot, or maybe if I'm not feeling like risking the Whirler or something like that. It's obviously good, I just don't find him worth slotting in half my teams though
Overall
| 5 | Magneton | 60 | 37.50% | 46.67% |
Amaranth
| 4 | Magneton | 5 | 45.45% | 80.00% |
People are getting apprehensive of loading this a little bit maybe, but it's still the nuts whenever it doesn't hit into grounds. And the grounds themselves are kinda doodoo, they definitely wouldn't be getting any use if not for this guy, you can usually build to lure or exploit them with the other five. You can see from overall usages that grounds just aren't very common even still, so even as a pure fish this mon has quite a lot of value. It's sort of a 'second Mime' situation where, if you aren't running a ground, Magneton helps you stabilize against enemy Magneton too - so there's a lot of incentive to load this in that sense too. I like Magneton and I like even greeding Magneton as a pure fish without particularly covering for the Ground match ups from time to time
Overall
| 6 | Seadra | 58 | 36.25% | 51.72% |
| 7 | Fearow | 53 | 33.12% | 49.06% |
| 9 | Raticate | 45 | 28.12% | 51.11% |
Amaranth
| 14 | Raticate | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 15 | Seadra | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Fearow | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
I don't get the hype at all for these guys. Seadra folds to Rest Waters, which are viable (because they eat seadra up for breakfast) no matter how much gastlies or whoever else tries to convince you otherwise. If you have high Seadra I WILL load Rest and I WILL enjoy the freewin thank you very much. And even aside from that issue, it just doesn't do much to justify itself significantly above other Water options for me. I'll take EQ to hit Magneton + more bulk to switch into Fires + access to SToss and Counter etc. any day. Fearow is a very similar story - sure it's scary and it clicks Agility and oooo big guy with strong attack and a lot of speed or whatever, but is there really such a need to risk the Kabutops match up? To me it doesn't seem dominant enough at trading into everything else to be worth running that risk. But of course my Fearow is so pathetically low that I can afford to bring it once in a while because I can expect not to run into many Kabus (and even then I'm still spooked bc they may well be running Graveler for my Magnetons!)
Raticate is a bit of a different situation, because it's much more match up neutral thanks to Super Fang, but I *hate* the speed tier being under Charizard and Fearow given how much everyone loads these two. Funnily enough, it is probably a great bring into me given that I don't rate these two nearly as much as the rest of the playerbase. But I'd still rather put other guys in my builder because everyone else *is* loving those 100 speed dudes and I'm not eager to risk running my rat into that.
Overall
| 8 | Blastoise | 46 | 28.75% | 45.65% |
| 11 | Kabutops | 36 | 22.50% | 44.44% |
| 17 | Golduck | 12 | 7.50% | 66.67% |
| 18 | Poliwhirl | 10 | 6.25% | 80.00% |
Amaranth
| 3 | Kabutops | 5 | 45.45% | 100.00% |
| 6 | Blastoise | 4 | 36.36% | 75.00% |
| 7 | Golduck | 4 | 36.36% | 100.00% |
| 8 | Poliwhirl | 3 | 27.27% | 100.00% |
The flipside of my lower Seadra and Poliwrath: I get to use all these cool guys instead. I'll go to war for Kabutops especially and also Blastoise to a lesser degree: these guys are MEATY in a tier where being meaty and dying in 4 hits instead of 3 (or 3 instead of 2) matters a lot. Kabutops especially I think is severely underrated, Slash is really strong and farming Fearows is just so good, without sacrificing all that much in the other MUs (you'll want a second and maybe a third water, but that's hardly a sacrifice with so many great ones in the tier and no real punish to water stacking outside of Magneton). Golduck and Poliwhirl are a bit memey, and I don't think they're amazing - the usage for Golduck especially certainly overrepresents how good I think it is - but they can lead the game down some EXTREMELY forcing lines through Amnesia and really snowball a small tempo lead into a huge material lead as opponent desperately scrambles to stop the rampage. Or, they trade for a fat SToss water one-for-one and nothing really happens. Could go either way. In any case, it's funny that I singlehandedly make up 1/3rd of all Golduck uses and nearly 1/3rd of all Poliwhirls.
Overall
| 10 | Moltres | 40 | 25.00% | 40.00% |
| 13 | Arcanine | 19 | 11.88% | 42.11% |
Amaranth
| 10 | Moltres | 2 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| 17 | Arcanine | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
These are inferior Fires to Charizard in a majority of situations. I only led Moltres against Chungler, twice, to specifically snipe the Venomoth match up, because Fire Blast has strong odds to OHKO which forces it out completely... except he just stayed and got the tie lmao. Don't even remember when I loaded dog. They only really have a place either over Charizard (but Zard is pretty clearly better), or alongside him (but do you really need two fires? what match up are you really trying to punish?) so I don't think they're that great. I just very rarely felt compelled to bother with either of them, like I said in the Zard paragraph it can be appealing to dodge the stupid mindgamey mirrors by creating an asymmetry but that aside I don't really care for these guys
Overall
| 12 | Graveler | 24 | 15.00% | 45.83% |
| 16 | Nidoking | 13 | 8.12% | 53.85% |
| 21 | Sandslash | 4 | 2.50% | 75.00% |
Amaranth
| 11 | Nidoking | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| 13 | Sandslash | 2 | 18.18% | 100.00% |
| x | Graveler | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
Lol, zero Graveler, lmao. I kind of hate Nidoking, but I think it's likely the best Ground in the tier - outspeeding most waters and having TBolt to smite them is really so much better than either of the slow guys. Sandslash + Kabu/Aero is role decompressing Graveler into two pokemon with better stats and ability to trade with stuff, and that's where my two Slash uses come from. I haven't really found myself wanting to Graveler even though the compression is appealing, because I think Waters are really good and I valued the higher pressure + not-being-ohkoed-by-Surf capabilities of the other two. I also think Fearow is not all that great + already pushed out of relevance by my scout thanks to near 50% Kabutops, so that part of Graveler's appeal is nearly entirely lost on me. It still looks fine though, I just happened to prefer other Grounds in the specific MUs I found. 25% overall Ground rate definitely seems a bit sus to me - Magneton is powerful, you guys need more answers to him even though it sometimes sucks to use them. Sneaky positive of all of these guys - switching on weakened+paralyzed Mimes going for TBolt or TWave (Sandslash especially is great at this while the other two get 2hkoed by Psychic and might not want to try their luck)
Overall
| 14 | Aerodactyl | 14 | 8.75% | 50.00% |
| 14 | Porygon | 14 | 8.75% | 35.71% |
Amaranth
| 12 | Porygon | 2 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| x | Aerodactyl | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
These guys are okay or whatever. Hard to justify over the actual good mons in the tier, but not terrible. Porygon clicks Thunder Wave (never bad) and Aerodactyl is fast with a great MU on backzard.
Overall
| 19 | Exeggcute | 6 | 3.75% | 50.00% |
| 19 | Venusaur | 6 | 3.75% | 0.00% |
| 22 | Gastly | 3 | 1.88% | 66.67% |
Amaranth
| 18 | Gastly | 1 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
| x | Exeggcute | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| x | Venusaur | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
Bad memes, do not use. Venomoth clears you, Venomoth rinses you, Venomoth lives in your walls. I once thought Gastly was an OK counterbring to Raticate lovers but I don't even think that's a legitimate use case anymore. Just Moth for sleep, the small theoretical upsides for these guys are not worth everything that they give up. Venu's decent MUs where it gains some momentum (Magneton, basically all Waters) are ruined by it giving that momentum right back to some very terrible ones (Charizard, other Fires, Fearow, even Venomoth himself). No Stun Spore threat really lets them walk all over you.
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In light of the new RBY OU Viability Rankings, Slowbro is now tiered UU and Victreebel is now tiered NU. Victreebel drops straight to NU after discussion with UU and NU councils on setting a general precedent, and the precedent we have decided on is basically "if the intervening tiers haven't changed much in between just quickdrop it." Vic's been in a Lapras UU context before and also been in this exact NU metagame for a time before it was pulled back up to OU, so back to NU it goes until and unless it rises again to OU or UU in a future VR.
Hello NU players, I have very delayed survey data (pre APT ban) to share because there's been yet another council discussion brewing on PT, so I want to share some data and see what people think. We had 20 respondents of which 14 were considered qualified respondents (those who would have suspect reqs). Among those, here's how the data breaks down:
On a scale of 1-7, how fun do you find the tier right now, with 1 being "extremely unfun" and 7 being "extremely fun?"
All respondents: 4.95 | Qualified respondents: 5.07
On a scale of 1-7, how balanced do you find the tier right now, with 1 being "extremely imbalanced" and 7 being "extremely well-balanced?"
All respondents: 4.05 | Qualified respondents: 4.14
Do you believe any Pokemon should be suspect tested?
All respondents: Venomoth (57%), Charizard (50%), Moltres (29%), Mr. Mime (21%)
Qualified respondents: Venomoth (50%), Charizard (43%), Moltres (29%), Mr. Mime (14%)
On a scale of 1-7, with 1 being "not broken at all" and 7 being "extremely broken," please rate how broken you believe Partial Trapping moves when using the most powerful strategies possible with them. Brokenness means "this element is extremely centralizing and strongly warps teambuilding and/or gameplay."
All respondents: 3.40 | Qualified respondents: 3.64
On a scale of 1-7, with 1 being "not uncompetitive at all" and 7 being "extremely uncompetitive," please rate how uncompetitive you believe Partial Trapping moves are when using the most powerful strategies possible with them. Uncompetitiveness means "this element reduces the element of skill in the game and increases the prevalence of luck in deciding the winner."
All respondents: 5.35 | Qualified respondents: 5.64
Which of the following options are appealing to you regarding tiering action if tiering action is taken against specific moves? You may select multiple options. (Percentages will add to over 100%)
All respondents: Ban all PT (60%), I do not want tiering action related to PT (25%), Ban certain Pokemon or specific PT moves (20%)
Qualified respondents: Ban all PT (79%), Ban certain Pokemon or specific PT moves (21%), I do not want tiering action related to PT (21%)
Again, please note this was pre-APT ban.
I'd like to open a discussion on this (...again) and see how people are feeling as RBY NU Open ends, RBY NU Cup starts, and NUFL enters playoffs.
Tagging lots of people who responded, have reqs, and/or have shown interest:
On a scale of 1-7, how fun do you find the tier right now, with 1 being "extremely unfun" and 7 being "extremely fun?"
All respondents: 4.95 | Qualified respondents: 5.07
On a scale of 1-7, how balanced do you find the tier right now, with 1 being "extremely imbalanced" and 7 being "extremely well-balanced?"
All respondents: 4.05 | Qualified respondents: 4.14
Do you believe any Pokemon should be suspect tested?
All respondents: Venomoth (57%), Charizard (50%), Moltres (29%), Mr. Mime (21%)
Qualified respondents: Venomoth (50%), Charizard (43%), Moltres (29%), Mr. Mime (14%)
On a scale of 1-7, with 1 being "not broken at all" and 7 being "extremely broken," please rate how broken you believe Partial Trapping moves when using the most powerful strategies possible with them. Brokenness means "this element is extremely centralizing and strongly warps teambuilding and/or gameplay."
All respondents: 3.40 | Qualified respondents: 3.64
On a scale of 1-7, with 1 being "not uncompetitive at all" and 7 being "extremely uncompetitive," please rate how uncompetitive you believe Partial Trapping moves are when using the most powerful strategies possible with them. Uncompetitiveness means "this element reduces the element of skill in the game and increases the prevalence of luck in deciding the winner."
All respondents: 5.35 | Qualified respondents: 5.64
Which of the following options are appealing to you regarding tiering action if tiering action is taken against specific moves? You may select multiple options. (Percentages will add to over 100%)
All respondents: Ban all PT (60%), I do not want tiering action related to PT (25%), Ban certain Pokemon or specific PT moves (20%)
Qualified respondents: Ban all PT (79%), Ban certain Pokemon or specific PT moves (21%), I do not want tiering action related to PT (21%)
Again, please note this was pre-APT ban.
I'd like to open a discussion on this (...again) and see how people are feeling as RBY NU Open ends, RBY NU Cup starts, and NUFL enters playoffs.
Tagging lots of people who responded, have reqs, and/or have shown interest:
i think APT clause has fixed most of the issues with partial trapping, with fspin zard being the main exception (but most people play it poorly so it doesn't actually accomplish anything) but i'd still like to go forward with a full partial trapping ban because i think having a complex ban on this is rather silly when partial trapping doesn't meaningfully provide anything to the tier.
there's no reason to bend over backwards to preserve something that just makes the tier less competitive
there's no reason to bend over backwards to preserve something that just makes the tier less competitive
I lowkey cannot remember what I voted but
APT ban fixes most of the problems with PT, like said before the only main issue left wrt pt is fspin zard
fspin zard is dumb as fuck though, but IDK if it warrants a full fspin/pt ban nor a charizard ban (zard seems overall fine)
my biggest issue with the tier currently is magneton/ground matchup triangle, otherwise i think it is close to as good of a tier as rby lowtiers can get
mime is fine moth is fine zard is fine victreebel is literally not relevant at all
in general, i would not mind a fspin or full PT ban but i also dont think it is needed
i would wanna see how a magless meta goes but if theres not enough support its wtv
APT ban fixes most of the problems with PT, like said before the only main issue left wrt pt is fspin zard
fspin zard is dumb as fuck though, but IDK if it warrants a full fspin/pt ban nor a charizard ban (zard seems overall fine)
my biggest issue with the tier currently is magneton/ground matchup triangle, otherwise i think it is close to as good of a tier as rby lowtiers can get
mime is fine moth is fine zard is fine victreebel is literally not relevant at all
in general, i would not mind a fspin or full PT ban but i also dont think it is needed
i would wanna see how a magless meta goes but if theres not enough support its wtv
Do nothing the meta's fine banning Venomoth is such a bad meme maybe voter reqs should be tightened if thats what "qualified" voters think
Agree with Ama and Cake that Venomoth should not be banned. In fact, I think a Venomoth ban makes the tier worse because if it is banned then people have to rely on hypnosis from wrath/whirl for sleep (venusaur is bad, vic is slower than kabu duck and toise so will likely also be bad). Having an actually good sleep powder user is very rare in RBY Lowtiers and we should be grateful that we don’t have to use shitass hypnosis to get sleep. The polis being the main sleepers will increase variance a ton I feel.
I’m indifferent on PT now that the biggest problem (agilispin Moltres) is gone. If you held a gun to my head and made me choose I would probably lean towards a ban because I think it’s unfun but I don’t think it’s a huge problem in this tier,
I’m indifferent on PT now that the biggest problem (agilispin Moltres) is gone. If you held a gun to my head and made me choose I would probably lean towards a ban because I think it’s unfun but I don’t think it’s a huge problem in this tier,
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Thought I could post a VR in the short period where people care about my opinion (and in the last few months before UU comes back to blow up the meta).
S Tier: These guys are pretty much interchangeable. They're all great, use them. Lead SD Charizard making a resurgence during NU Cup surprised me, but being a little more effective at breaking Poliwrath and Blastoise on the switch makes sense, particularly with how common Poliwrath/Blastoise cores have become.
A+ Tier: Fearow is still a very good, very dangerous mon, even with a bit of a rise in Kabutops. The bulky waters are both excellent, and Poliwrath only edges it out with Hypnosis for me. Blastoise also tends to fit a little better on teams with Venomoth as the only sleeper, but it's not particularly difficult to pack a Rock to wall Fearow instead.
A Tier: Magneton is very strong, but in a lot of matchups you just... don't need it. Or rather, running no Magneton into Ground-types always feels incredible. Rat is so hard to switch into, and it rolls well enough for me to put it this high, but not getting the crits or getting the Body Slam para makes it just a little too inconsistent to put it higher (sorry Wanted in 49 States). Kabu is the single best Rock in the tier, singlehandedly walling Moltres and Fearow for a lot of teams, and consistently making progress with Slash. Do not follow my example and run Submission. Moltres and Seadra could probably even be in a B+ tier by themselves, but I'd rather leave them here for now. Both have gotten significantly worse recently, with Wrath/Toise and Kabutops rising in usage, and the PT ban means Moltres can't bail out of or hax bad matchups as easily. Seadra just runs into too many things it can't break without help, and you have to build very carefully around it.
B Tier: If this were a real VR, this is the last tier of NU. Lead Arcanine is still solid. Trust. Porygon does Porygon things, and a lot of mons just can't break it. Golduck has found a new lease on life as a progress maker against these bulky teams, and can consistently make itself a problem.
C Tier: This tier of mons is what I consider to be reasonable brings, but probably too inconsistent or niche to be truly NU.
Poliwhirl, Graveler, and Nidoking are probably the closest to being properly NU, but you can really only bring Poliwhirl as a lead, and even in its best-case scenario it's a lottery machine. Graveler and Nidoking are the best of the grounds, and Graveler compresses some useful resistances against Magneton/Fearow teams, but getting a turn wrong with Graveler and ending up in front of a Water, or even worse, Poliwrath without a sleep blocker, is a crushing loss of momentum. Nidoking doesn't have quite the same problem, but getting weaker to Mime, Fires, and Normals sucks.
I am an Egg believer, just because walling Mime and Mag, along with having sleep, para, and boom, is a very useful combination, despite its honestly bad stats otherwise. Sandslash fits on some very specific teams but when it works it just works. Aero is very fast, and when it crits it can just blow through checks, but I think it really just doesn't have any defensive utility anymore. Even switching into Fires risks a (very frequent) burn, and then you're even more crit-reliant. Venusaur has some usage recently, and breaking bulky (or Amnesia) waters while checking Mag is useful, but its usecase feels even more niche than Sandslash to me.
D Tier: Yeah I guess you can use these. But why would you?
You forgot to rank voltorb in D
All RBY lower tiers are opening up a form to recruit new council members! If you're interested please fill out this short form - even at times the councils are full, its good to know where we have motivated people ready to step up if anyone steps down. https://forms.gle/fXHRnmmJWVb2Nmcn9
Our RBYPL season is over but I had a great time playing NU, thanks so much to gastlies and BeeOrSomething for drafting me, luckily this was the tier I wanted to play the most and I put a ton of effort into this tour.
I ordered my VR within tiers but I still think mons in the same tier have roughly the same viability. In all Pokemon I really value a mon having a defensive niche or providing defensive utility because it makes it so much easier to fit on teams.
My RBYPL usage:
S-tier:
These 2 shape the tier to an absurd degree, being the most consistent spreaders of paralysis, and mime being better at killing shit while moth is by far the most consistent sleeper. These 2 are the most important shitmon limiters and basically determine what’s viable on what types of teams. I don’t think it’s crazy to put venomoth here, I think it is almost always the best option for sleep on the most consistent teams and teams which forgo moth for one of the polis are inconsistent at best. Poliwhirl and wrath leads as solo sleepers can lose the game on turn 1 vs venomoth lead or just another poli winning the speed tie. Poliwhirl +poliwrath is ok on the sleep front (or sometimes solo poliwrath in the back) but opens up some bad defensive holes vs stuff like Magneton/fearrow/venomoth/
More moth ranting
waters: every team needs at least one of these, oftentimes 2 because they’re all so good. There’s very little to punish spamming waters right now. Often you’ll want to use them in the lategame so they can’t be abused by Venomoth and are coming onto the field when mr. Mime is dead or paralyzed. This is mostly fine because they have lategame entries on SD zard and sometimes other waters.
Blastoise is the most consistent due to its bulk and mono water typing. Wrath can be good with venomoth rather than used instead, as wrath has an easier time pushing though paralyzed mime which venomoth doesn’t easily get sleep vs. Poliwrath also provides a water that can be used in the early game to prevent moth’s initial entry with sleep. Venomoth lead +poliwrath in the back are quite nice at guaranteeing early sleep for this reason.The speed tier however makes poliwrath very shaky at fighting other waters like Blastoise and kabutops and the typing makes it take way too much from the top 2 mons.
Kabutops is excellent and basically guarantees damage vs any target with a juicy slash and water coverage. Very strong in the lategame once things have been paralyzed and guarantees your team longevity vs fearow. Though even when I don’t load kabutops into fearow I’m always happy to have it. Kabu is still a potential moth entry early but I find it’s not quite as bad since slash puts moth in range of more attacks than surf and body slam is also an option for good damage and paralysis. Sd is rarely going to sweep but god damn those hyper beams are strong. Also still retains some lategame utility vs SD charizard as a normal resist, so catching a hyper beam can potentially stop the sweep.
Seadra and Golduck are in B tier but I still like them both, a bit awkward to fit on teams sometimes because neither are safe vs +4 SD zard and they don’t have the amazing fearow matchup like kabutops. Seadra can at least act as a momentum reverser vs back zard which can feel great. I think Rest on both of these mons is usually what I fit in the last move slot. I value walling opposing seadra, and both of these guys might need to fight moth at some point, so clearing paralysis is ideal. Both have setup moves that can let them get the rest off successfully. Notably both of these are faster than kabutops so they have good synergy with something like fearow or moltres.
Fires : Charizard isn’t a mon I use on every team but it’s still the most centralizing fastmon in the tier. I really like lead charizard since imo it has the most consistent lead matchup spread and can stay in vs almost anything. I don’t use SD as much as I used to, I find it’s always scary on paper but needs a lot of things to go right for it to sweep, and if it doesn’t sweep it’s often because it failed to KO its first target and doesn’t really properly break for the rest of the team. Still one of the best speed controls that covers every matchup at least decently.
Moltres I used only a couple times towards the end of the season but I actually have really liked it. Great special bulk lets it be a legit positive trader vs mime, and is the best Pokemon you can switch into venomoth. I think people worry a bit too much about the matchup into waters when this thing can very reasonably muscle through them just by clicking its one button. I use rest on moltres because I think the bulk is good enough that you have a realistic shot to clear paralysis vs mime, especially with an agility. Running both normal moves is also completely fine. SD zard is a concern for moltres teams, but there’s often a line that moltres can help with vs sd zard. For example, Blastoise surf into moltres hyper beam has a very high chance to kill zard when factoring in crits, zard missing hyper beam or critting when it doesn’t want to. The kabutops matchup is honestly the thing stopping me from spamming this mon more, but it is a huge limiter so it stays B tier.
grounds and magneton : I think part of my success this tour was being very principled in bringing a real Magneton check on over 60% of my teams. Magneton is so good and so dominant vs teams that don’t use these 3 that I really don’t like going below 50% usage on all of them combined. Nidoking in particular I rank very highly despite the poor mime and moth matchups because it fills the defensive role of Magneton counter and is an unwallable breaker with a a good enough speed tier and bulk to secure the endgame vs waters not named seadra or golduck. Importantly, nidoking at 1% and nidoking at 100% are both equally good at stopping Magneton, so it can afford to trade a lot of its health and take a stray surf vs waters, tank a +2 charizard eq and do 75% back, or tank a crit double edge from fearow and fire back with blizzard. Graveler has the problem of being forced out by every water instead as it can’t take a surf even if it wanted to. Nidoking on its own is why I think people need to be more careful with their venomoth, as it’s one of the best mons to revenge a weakened nidoking and is able to switch in fairly reliably while not letting nidoking scout switches with sub.
As for Magneton, I’ve started to use mag in lead as it reveals right away if the opponent has a ground type in the back so you can figure out its value in a game immediately. If the opponent has a ground type but is leading venomoth, it’s not even that useful to put mag to sleep turn 1. Overall mag is just the best trader in the tier when you don’t face a ground type so its always worth considering even vs an opponent who uses grounds. I noticed a lot of rbypl and nucl games where the Magneton player is able to win anyway despite facing a ground, I think the best support for mag is still venomoth+1 or 2 waters so you can get sleep on incoming grounds and threaten them out effectively.
Graveler I don’t use nearly as much as the other 2, but it still covers 2 very important matchups. Graveler makes it difficult to run fearow and magneton on the same team, as fearow really needs a partner that the can punish graveler coming in to wall it. Nidoking on the other hand is great vs kabutops and graveler, getting a lot of value out of fearow baiting them in.
Normals: : i don’t use either of these very much but i still consider them great picks, I didn’t usually want to risk loading fearow into a rock type but i think whenever I see this matchup play out it’s often not so bad for the fearow user. It can still Mickey Mouse it’s way through kabutops with crits and just needs to be paired with a partner that makes progress vs everything (zard, nidoking, golduck).until rest kabutops really starts seeing usage, fearow is still able to chip it down and force kabu into situations where it needs to preserve health for fearow.
Raticate is the normal that trades the fastest speed tier and stronger normal/flying moves for the ability to get past anything given enough time. Raticate is a very easy pairing with Magneton as rat doesn’t need help making it through graveler and doesn’t do too bad vs nidoking either. I didn’t use rat much because the typing is pretty low value defensively and not speed tying with the base 100s is unfortunate, though usually I’m dealing with those in other ways so outspeeding and clicking body slam vs mime and moth is still extremely valuable. Kabutops can pair with rat well as it checks fearow on its own so the rest of the team can worry about charizard.
Silly guys 
:not going to put these 3 with their respective types though they could fit there just fine. Poliwhirl I’ve really only used on lead. Whirl simultaneously has a very flat lead matchup spread (you’re about equally likely to sleep venomoth as it is to sleep you) but if you come out on the good side of this it can completely tear the game open. Some teams with kabutops+a mono water type have a very hard time with poliwhirl on lead as they need trade health on their mono water to kill it, or in the worst case the team is kabutops+poliwrath or seadra, so mime needs to switch into whirl on the amnesia turn and trade around 70% of their mime just to paralyze it. I always considered leading at least 1 poliwhirl in a set of 5 games.
Porygon doesn’t fit into any other category well but it’s great in this metagame especially vs unprepared teams. Sometimes the requirement for Porygon to just win the game is kill Mime and Venomoth, then your opponent doesn’t have any way to paralyze it. I think we have reached peak Porygon at this point, toxin boost just ran a tail whip Blastoise to make sure it didn’t stomp an endgame which was a really cool tech. I’d recommend people stop using the bad sample set with blizz bolt and just run psychic+ a normal move. You really want to kill venomoth and mr. Mime as fast as possible because paralyzed porygon is essentially useless.
Staryu is pretty similar to porygon as a twave user that completely blanks bulky waters without the right move to beat it. Because it has reliable paralysis, it’s a water that doesn’t allow free entry to venomoth and mime to a lesser extent. Highly recommend using with a ground type or mag at the very least and it can completely wall some cores of mag+bulky water while spreading paralysis on the things that can actually kill it. Staryu’s stats are extremely meme and it doesn’t get to enter on fires, so it almost requires another fat water in the back.
Thanks as well to all my testing partners acluh1 (please someone draft this guy next rbypl he beat my ass in so many test games) LHF (same) PHB11677 (same) Maris Bonibell KeshBa54 gastlies
I ordered my VR within tiers but I still think mons in the same tier have roughly the same viability. In all Pokemon I really value a mon having a defensive niche or providing defensive utility because it makes it so much easier to fit on teams.
My RBYPL usage:
(This doesn’t include the 3 games I lost to Volk since the replays are hidden, sorry venusaur.)
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 26 | 100.00% | 88.46% |
| 2 | Venomoth | 21 | 80.77% | 90.48% |
| 3 | Charizard | 15 | 57.69% | 80.00% |
| 4 | Blastoise | 13 | 50.00% | 100.00% |
| 5 | Poliwrath | 11 | 42.31% | 81.82% |
| 6 | Kabutops | 10 | 38.46% | 80.00% |
| 7 | Nidoking | 9 | 34.62% | 77.78% |
| 8 | Seadra | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 9 | Magneton | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 10 | Fearow | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 11 | Golduck | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 12 | Porygon | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 13 | Raticate | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 14 | Moltres | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 15 | Poliwhirl | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Graveler | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 17 | Staryu | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 18 | Aerodactyl | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 26 | 100.00% | 88.46% |
| 2 | Venomoth | 21 | 80.77% | 90.48% |
| 3 | Charizard | 15 | 57.69% | 80.00% |
| 4 | Blastoise | 13 | 50.00% | 100.00% |
| 5 | Poliwrath | 11 | 42.31% | 81.82% |
| 6 | Kabutops | 10 | 38.46% | 80.00% |
| 7 | Nidoking | 9 | 34.62% | 77.78% |
| 8 | Seadra | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 9 | Magneton | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 10 | Fearow | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 11 | Golduck | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 12 | Porygon | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 13 | Raticate | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 14 | Moltres | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 15 | Poliwhirl | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Graveler | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 17 | Staryu | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 18 | Aerodactyl | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
S-tier:
These 2 shape the tier to an absurd degree, being the most consistent spreaders of paralysis, and mime being better at killing shit while moth is by far the most consistent sleeper. These 2 are the most important shitmon limiters and basically determine what’s viable on what types of teams. I don’t think it’s crazy to put venomoth here, I think it is almost always the best option for sleep on the most consistent teams and teams which forgo moth for one of the polis are inconsistent at best. Poliwhirl and wrath leads as solo sleepers can lose the game on turn 1 vs venomoth lead or just another poli winning the speed tie. Poliwhirl +poliwrath is ok on the sleep front (or sometimes solo poliwrath in the back) but opens up some bad defensive holes vs stuff like Magneton/fearrow/venomoth/
More moth ranting
Moth provides a 1 time switch to Magneton tbolt and threatens status which lets teams get away with dropping a ground type or their own Magneton. Moth is also the biggest early game limiter to not only spamming waters, but also to ground types, making Venomoth almost mandatory on Magneton teams. The speed tier and threat of paralysis makes your opponent play awkward even when sleep isn’t open, but even when moth isn’t given favorable entries it can be a demon in the lategame if your opponent doesn’t consider it. With double edge it can bust through paralyzed mime and leave it low enough that your own mime doesn’t get paralyzed, and at that point you should be pretty much winning the game. Often once Venomoth gets sleep it’s perfectly fine switching out to any unrevealed pokemon that threatens Mime such as Fearow, Raticate, moltres or your own mime. You don’t need to play the stun spore vs psychic games, if the opponent is going to stay in and burn sleep turns just switch to something that is hard to switch into for your opponent. Obviously para on an incoming mime is great but you’re trying to hit 75% stun spore vs something that can instakill you with a crit. Gastlies drilled into me early in the season that psychic is a fairly low value click with moth in the early game when mime isn’t paralyzed.
waters:
every team needs at least one of these, oftentimes 2 because they’re all so good. There’s very little to punish spamming waters right now. Often you’ll want to use them in the lategame so they can’t be abused by Venomoth and are coming onto the field when mr. Mime is dead or paralyzed. This is mostly fine because they have lategame entries on SD zard and sometimes other waters.Blastoise is the most consistent due to its bulk and mono water typing. Wrath can be good with venomoth rather than used instead, as wrath has an easier time pushing though paralyzed mime which venomoth doesn’t easily get sleep vs. Poliwrath also provides a water that can be used in the early game to prevent moth’s initial entry with sleep. Venomoth lead +poliwrath in the back are quite nice at guaranteeing early sleep for this reason.The speed tier however makes poliwrath very shaky at fighting other waters like Blastoise and kabutops and the typing makes it take way too much from the top 2 mons.
Kabutops is excellent and basically guarantees damage vs any target with a juicy slash and water coverage. Very strong in the lategame once things have been paralyzed and guarantees your team longevity vs fearow. Though even when I don’t load kabutops into fearow I’m always happy to have it. Kabu is still a potential moth entry early but I find it’s not quite as bad since slash puts moth in range of more attacks than surf and body slam is also an option for good damage and paralysis. Sd is rarely going to sweep but god damn those hyper beams are strong. Also still retains some lategame utility vs SD charizard as a normal resist, so catching a hyper beam can potentially stop the sweep.
Seadra and Golduck are in B tier but I still like them both, a bit awkward to fit on teams sometimes because neither are safe vs +4 SD zard and they don’t have the amazing fearow matchup like kabutops. Seadra can at least act as a momentum reverser vs back zard which can feel great. I think Rest on both of these mons is usually what I fit in the last move slot. I value walling opposing seadra, and both of these guys might need to fight moth at some point, so clearing paralysis is ideal. Both have setup moves that can let them get the rest off successfully. Notably both of these are faster than kabutops so they have good synergy with something like fearow or moltres.
Fires
: Charizard isn’t a mon I use on every team but it’s still the most centralizing fastmon in the tier. I really like lead charizard since imo it has the most consistent lead matchup spread and can stay in vs almost anything. I don’t use SD as much as I used to, I find it’s always scary on paper but needs a lot of things to go right for it to sweep, and if it doesn’t sweep it’s often because it failed to KO its first target and doesn’t really properly break for the rest of the team. Still one of the best speed controls that covers every matchup at least decently.Moltres I used only a couple times towards the end of the season but I actually have really liked it. Great special bulk lets it be a legit positive trader vs mime, and is the best Pokemon you can switch into venomoth. I think people worry a bit too much about the matchup into waters when this thing can very reasonably muscle through them just by clicking its one button. I use rest on moltres because I think the bulk is good enough that you have a realistic shot to clear paralysis vs mime, especially with an agility. Running both normal moves is also completely fine. SD zard is a concern for moltres teams, but there’s often a line that moltres can help with vs sd zard. For example, Blastoise surf into moltres hyper beam has a very high chance to kill zard when factoring in crits, zard missing hyper beam or critting when it doesn’t want to. The kabutops matchup is honestly the thing stopping me from spamming this mon more, but it is a huge limiter so it stays B tier.
grounds and magneton
: I think part of my success this tour was being very principled in bringing a real Magneton check on over 60% of my teams. Magneton is so good and so dominant vs teams that don’t use these 3 that I really don’t like going below 50% usage on all of them combined. Nidoking in particular I rank very highly despite the poor mime and moth matchups because it fills the defensive role of Magneton counter and is an unwallable breaker with a a good enough speed tier and bulk to secure the endgame vs waters not named seadra or golduck. Importantly, nidoking at 1% and nidoking at 100% are both equally good at stopping Magneton, so it can afford to trade a lot of its health and take a stray surf vs waters, tank a +2 charizard eq and do 75% back, or tank a crit double edge from fearow and fire back with blizzard. Graveler has the problem of being forced out by every water instead as it can’t take a surf even if it wanted to. Nidoking on its own is why I think people need to be more careful with their venomoth, as it’s one of the best mons to revenge a weakened nidoking and is able to switch in fairly reliably while not letting nidoking scout switches with sub.As for Magneton, I’ve started to use mag in lead as it reveals right away if the opponent has a ground type in the back so you can figure out its value in a game immediately. If the opponent has a ground type but is leading venomoth, it’s not even that useful to put mag to sleep turn 1. Overall mag is just the best trader in the tier when you don’t face a ground type so its always worth considering even vs an opponent who uses grounds. I noticed a lot of rbypl and nucl games where the Magneton player is able to win anyway despite facing a ground, I think the best support for mag is still venomoth+1 or 2 waters so you can get sleep on incoming grounds and threaten them out effectively.
Graveler I don’t use nearly as much as the other 2, but it still covers 2 very important matchups. Graveler makes it difficult to run fearow and magneton on the same team, as fearow really needs a partner that the can punish graveler coming in to wall it. Nidoking on the other hand is great vs kabutops and graveler, getting a lot of value out of fearow baiting them in.
Normals:
: i don’t use either of these very much but i still consider them great picks, I didn’t usually want to risk loading fearow into a rock type but i think whenever I see this matchup play out it’s often not so bad for the fearow user. It can still Mickey Mouse it’s way through kabutops with crits and just needs to be paired with a partner that makes progress vs everything (zard, nidoking, golduck).until rest kabutops really starts seeing usage, fearow is still able to chip it down and force kabu into situations where it needs to preserve health for fearow.Raticate is the normal that trades the fastest speed tier and stronger normal/flying moves for the ability to get past anything given enough time. Raticate is a very easy pairing with Magneton as rat doesn’t need help making it through graveler and doesn’t do too bad vs nidoking either. I didn’t use rat much because the typing is pretty low value defensively and not speed tying with the base 100s is unfortunate, though usually I’m dealing with those in other ways so outspeeding and clicking body slam vs mime and moth is still extremely valuable. Kabutops can pair with rat well as it checks fearow on its own so the rest of the team can worry about charizard.
Silly guys
:not going to put these 3 with their respective types though they could fit there just fine. Poliwhirl I’ve really only used on lead. Whirl simultaneously has a very flat lead matchup spread (you’re about equally likely to sleep venomoth as it is to sleep you) but if you come out on the good side of this it can completely tear the game open. Some teams with kabutops+a mono water type have a very hard time with poliwhirl on lead as they need trade health on their mono water to kill it, or in the worst case the team is kabutops+poliwrath or seadra, so mime needs to switch into whirl on the amnesia turn and trade around 70% of their mime just to paralyze it. I always considered leading at least 1 poliwhirl in a set of 5 games.Porygon doesn’t fit into any other category well but it’s great in this metagame especially vs unprepared teams. Sometimes the requirement for Porygon to just win the game is kill Mime and Venomoth, then your opponent doesn’t have any way to paralyze it. I think we have reached peak Porygon at this point, toxin boost just ran a tail whip Blastoise to make sure it didn’t stomp an endgame which was a really cool tech. I’d recommend people stop using the bad sample set with blizz bolt and just run psychic+ a normal move. You really want to kill venomoth and mr. Mime as fast as possible because paralyzed porygon is essentially useless.
Staryu is pretty similar to porygon as a twave user that completely blanks bulky waters without the right move to beat it. Because it has reliable paralysis, it’s a water that doesn’t allow free entry to venomoth and mime to a lesser extent. Highly recommend using with a ground type or mag at the very least and it can completely wall some cores of mag+bulky water while spreading paralysis on the things that can actually kill it. Staryu’s stats are extremely meme and it doesn’t get to enter on fires, so it almost requires another fat water in the back.
Thanks as well to all my testing partners acluh1 (please someone draft this guy next rbypl he beat my ass in so many test games) LHF (same) PHB11677 (same) Maris Bonibell KeshBa54 gastlies
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not even ranking aero like an chadOur RBYPL season is over but I had a great time playing NU, thanks so much to gastlies and BeeOrSomething for drafting me, luckily this was the tier I wanted to play the most and I put a ton of effort into this tour.
I ordered my VR within tiers but I still think mons in the same tier have roughly the same viability. In all Pokemon I really value a mon having a defensive niche or providing defensive utility because it makes it so much easier to fit on teams.
My RBYPL usage:
(This doesn’t include the 3 games I lost to Volk since the replays are hidden, sorry venusaur.)
| 1 | Mr. Mime | 26 | 100.00% | 88.46% |
| 2 | Venomoth | 21 | 80.77% | 90.48% |
| 3 | Charizard | 15 | 57.69% | 80.00% |
| 4 | Blastoise | 13 | 50.00% | 100.00% |
| 5 | Poliwrath | 11 | 42.31% | 81.82% |
| 6 | Kabutops | 10 | 38.46% | 80.00% |
| 7 | Nidoking | 9 | 34.62% | 77.78% |
| 8 | Seadra | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 9 | Magneton | 8 | 30.77% | 87.50% |
| 10 | Fearow | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 11 | Golduck | 5 | 19.23% | 80.00% |
| 12 | Porygon | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 13 | Raticate | 5 | 19.23% | 100.00% |
| 14 | Moltres | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 15 | Poliwhirl | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Graveler | 3 | 11.54% | 100.00% |
| 17 | Staryu | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
| 18 | Aerodactyl | 1 | 3.85% | 100.00% |
S-tier:
These 2 shape the tier to an absurd degree, being the most consistent spreaders of paralysis, and mime being better at killing shit while moth is by far the most consistent sleeper. These 2 are the most important shitmon limiters and basically determine what’s viable on what types of teams. I don’t think it’s crazy to put venomoth here, I think it is almost always the best option for sleep on the most consistent teams and teams which forgo moth for one of the polis are inconsistent at best. Poliwhirl and wrath leads as solo sleepers can lose the game on turn 1 vs venomoth lead or just another poli winning the speed tie. Poliwhirl +poliwrath is ok on the sleep front (or sometimes solo poliwrath in the back) but opens up some bad defensive holes vs stuff like Magneton/fearrow/venomoth/
More moth ranting
Moth provides a 1 time switch to Magneton tbolt and threatens status which lets teams get away with dropping a ground type or their own Magneton. Moth is also the biggest early game limiter to not only spamming waters, but also to ground types, making Venomoth almost mandatory on Magneton teams. The speed tier and threat of paralysis makes your opponent play awkward even when sleep isn’t open, but even when moth isn’t given favorable entries it can be a demon in the lategame if your opponent doesn’t consider it. With double edge it can bust through paralyzed mime and leave it low enough that your own mime doesn’t get paralyzed, and at that point you should be pretty much winning the game. Often once Venomoth gets sleep it’s perfectly fine switching out to any unrevealed pokemon that threatens Mime such as Fearow, Raticate, moltres or your own mime. You don’t need to play the stun spore vs psychic games, if the opponent is going to stay in and burn sleep turns just switch to something that is hard to switch into for your opponent. Obviously para on an incoming mime is great but you’re trying to hit 75% stun spore vs something that can instakill you with a crit. Gastlies drilled into me early in the season that psychic is a fairly low value click with moth in the early game when mime isn’t paralyzed.
waters:
Blastoise is the most consistent due to its bulk and mono water typing. Wrath can be good with venomoth rather than used instead, as wrath has an easier time pushing though paralyzed mime which venomoth doesn’t easily get sleep vs. Poliwrath also provides a water that can be used in the early game to prevent moth’s initial entry with sleep. Venomoth lead +poliwrath in the back are quite nice at guaranteeing early sleep for this reason.The speed tier however makes poliwrath very shaky at fighting other waters like Blastoise and kabutops and the typing makes it take way too much from the top 2 mons.
Kabutops is excellent and basically guarantees damage vs any target with a juicy slash and water coverage. Very strong in the lategame once things have been paralyzed and guarantees your team longevity vs fearow. Though even when I don’t load kabutops into fearow I’m always happy to have it. Kabu is still a potential moth entry early but I find it’s not quite as bad since slash puts moth in range of more attacks than surf and body slam is also an option for good damage and paralysis. Sd is rarely going to sweep but god damn those hyper beams are strong. Also still retains some lategame utility vs SD charizard as a normal resist, so catching a hyper beam can potentially stop the sweep.
Seadra and Golduck are in B tier but I still like them both, a bit awkward to fit on teams sometimes because neither are safe vs +4 SD zard and they don’t have the amazing fearow matchup like kabutops. Seadra can at least act as a momentum reverser vs back zard which can feel great. I think Rest on both of these mons is usually what I fit in the last move slot. I value walling opposing seadra, and both of these guys might need to fight moth at some point, so clearing paralysis is ideal. Both have setup moves that can let them get the rest off successfully. Notably both of these are faster than kabutops so they have good synergy with something like fearow or moltres.
Fires
Moltres I used only a couple times towards the end of the season but I actually have really liked it. Great special bulk lets it be a legit positive trader vs mime, and is the best Pokemon you can switch into venomoth. I think people worry a bit too much about the matchup into waters when this thing can very reasonably muscle through them just by clicking its one button. I use rest on moltres because I think the bulk is good enough that you have a realistic shot to clear paralysis vs mime, especially with an agility. SD zard is a concern for moltres teams, but there’s often a line that moltres can help with vs sd zard. For example, Blastoise surf into moltres hyper beam has a very high chance to kill zard when factoring in crits, zard missing hyper beam or critting when it doesn’t want to. The kabutops matchup is honestly the thing stopping me from spamming this mon more, but it is a huge limiter so it stays B tier.
grounds and magneton
As for Magneton, I’ve started to use mag in lead as it reveals right away if the opponent has a ground type in the back so you can figure out its value in a game immediately. If the opponent has a ground type but is leading venomoth, it’s not even that useful to put mag to sleep turn 1. Overall mag is just the best trader in the tier when you don’t face a ground type so its always worth considering even vs an opponent who uses grounds. I noticed a lot of rbypl and nucl games where the Magneton player is able to win anyway despite facing a ground, I think the best support for mag is still venomoth+1 or 2 waters so you can get sleep on incoming grounds and threaten them out effectively.
Graveler I don’t use nearly as much as the other 2, but it still covers 2 very important matchups. Graveler makes it difficult to run fearow and magneton on the same team, as fearow really needs a partner that the can punish graveler coming in to wall it. Nidoking on the other hand is great vs kabutops and graveler, getting a lot of value out of fearow baiting them in.
Normals:
Raticate is the normal that trades the fastest speed tier and stronger normal/flying moves for the ability to get past anything given enough time. Raticate is a very easy pairing with Magneton as rat doesn’t need help making it through graveler and doesn’t do too bad vs nidoking either. I didn’t use rat much because the typing is pretty low value defensively and not speed tying with the base 100s is unfortunate, though usually I’m dealing with those in other ways so outspeeding and clicking body slam vs mime and moth is still extremely valuable. Kabutops can pair with rat well as it checks fearow on its own so the rest of the team can worry about charizard.
Silly guys
Porygon doesn’t fit into any other category well but it’s great in this metagame especially vs unprepared teams. Sometimes the requirement for Porygon to just win the game is kill Mime and Venomoth, then your opponent doesn’t have any way to paralyze it. I think we have reached peak Porygon at this point, toxin boost just ran a tail whip Blastoise to make sure it didn’t stomp an endgame which was a really cool tech. I’d recommend people stop using the bad sample set with blizz bolt and just run psychic+ a normal move. You really want to kill venomoth and mr. Mime as fast as possible because paralyzed porygon is essentially useless.
Staryu is pretty similar to porygon as a twave user that completely blanks bulky waters without the right move to beat it. Because it has reliable paralysis, it’s a water that doesn’t allow free entry to venomoth and mime to a lesser extent. Highly recommend using with a ground type or mag at the very least and it can completely wall some cores of mag+bulky water while spreading paralysis on the things that can actually kill it. Staryu’s stats are extremely meme and it doesn’t get to enter on fires, so it almost requires another fat water in the back.
Thanks as well to all my testing partners acluh1 (please someone draft this guy next rbypl he beat my ass in so many test games) LHF (same) PHB11677 (same) Maris Bonibell KeshBa54 gastliesView attachment 790095
Largely with VRs I never like to nitpick individual placements because I like to view them as conversation starters rather than anything concrete. I think this is also a nice way to get discussion going before we archive this version of the tier in early '26, and maybe I'll make a post later. However, the one thing I'm VERY sure I was wrong about when RBYPL started was that in our test games I constantly titled Moltres "featured shitmon" whenever I recreated an opponent's scout to play vs you, and for that I think I need to follow in our supreme co-dictator gastlies lead here.Fires
Moltres I used only a couple times towards the end of the season but I actually have really liked it. Great special bulk lets it be a legit positive trader vs mime, and is the best Pokemon you can switch into venomoth. I think people worry a bit too much about the matchup into waters when this thing can very reasonably muscle through them just by clicking its one button. I use rest on moltres because I think the bulk is good enough that you have a realistic shot to clear paralysis vs mime, especially with an agility. SD zard is a concern for moltres teams, but there’s often a line that moltres can help with vs sd zard. For example, Blastoise surf into moltres hyper beam has a very high chance to kill zard when factoring in crits, zard missing hyper beam or critting when it doesn’t want to. The kabutops matchup is honestly the thing stopping me from spamming this mon more, but it is a huge limiter so it stays B tier.
View attachment 790095
I know it doesn't matter anyway since it's going to UU(where I love it and think it's good) but I have to admit my mistake
And that's another one in the books. With RBYPL VI over (at least for my team, possibly everyone by the time you read this), I wanted to do a review. While I haven't been extremely active in NU, at least when compared to those who have participated in NUCL and Fight Club and whatnot, I still recognized some pretty noticeable shifts in the NU metagame, and I think my performance in the tournament illustrates that I adapted to them. While I wanted to go all out for this RBYPL, I was utterly hampered by work and personal commitments that forced me to pretty much completely check out from the tour after Week 3. I got a little more time after Week 5 was over, but not enough to actually prepare for any of the games. Plus, my team was already out of contention. I was fully expecting to be benched on Weeks 6 and 7, but we needed players. As such, I really didn't devote the time and energy I wanted to after Week 3. I didn't make enough teams or play enough games to really learn everything I wanted to. But anyhow, let's discuss what I do know.
I wanted to cover a lot more, like leads, sets, teams, replays, and general strategies, but I only have so much time these days and I wanted to get this post out while the iron of discussion was still hot. I might release another post about those things and the Pokemon for which I didn't write annotations at a later date, but I don't want to promise anything. Thank you to the Glacial Articunos for drafting me for RBYPL VI and shoutouts to the whole RBY NU pool. I don't care what anyone says, I think NU has put up some of the most competitive pools in RBYPL for a few years in a row at this point. Keep up the good work y'all. Cheers!
I decided on a more minimalist VR this year. I'm known to build pretty conservatively; for the most part, these are Pokemon that I'd probably actually use. More broadly, this list roughly summarizes the Pokemon that I "respect" in the builder. I consciously consider answering them when I build teams, even if I don't use them myself, and I don't take for granted that I can probably just outplay them with any random set of Pokemon. I don't think I'll talk about everyone, just those that I think have experienced shifts in the metagame or may have interesting placements. Or I might just have something I want to say.
Charizard is the best Pokemon in RBY NU. It appeared on every team I used and every team I built. It's a solid lead and the single best win condition in probably any RBY tier. Even more so than Tauros, if there is a Charizard, there is a way. Players who use Charizard well are virtually never out of contention to win a game until their last Pokemon faints. Think players like Toxin Boost who know how and when to press Charizard entries and convert them not into "progress," but into outright victories. Players who don't constantly respect Charizard will lose a lot of games they shouldn't. Simple as that.
Mr. Mime is still really good and everyone knows it. However, this has to be the most misused Pokemon in any RBY tier. I've said this so many times before in the Discord and I am going to publish it here now: you do not need to click Thunder Wave to start every matchup, particularly in the Mr. Mime ditto. I have won so many games by just attacking the opposing Mr. Mime with Seismic Toss instead of clicking Thunder Wave. While clicking Thunder Wave is a very justifiable play, potentially even in a majority of situations, it should distinctly not be your default play. Let's assess some considerations.
Mr. Mime isn't nearly as much of a win condition as people like to pretend it is. It isn't fast enough, enduring enough, or strong enough to muscle through multiple Pokemon in most games. This is just a reality. Mr. Mime will usually want to trade, often with itself, and that's okay. Cutting to the chase with Seismic Toss, especially if you catch a switch, is just better if we look strictly at the one-versus-one, which actually kind of matters for this Pokemon in this metagame.
Moreover, damage is king in this metagame. When we look at most of the Pokemon that usually win games in this tier — Charizard, Seadra, Fearow, Moltres — notice that they all either can or do outspeed Mr. Mime. These Pokemon need damage on Mr. Mime to sweep through it, not paralysis. Mr. Mime is very frail. A Seismic Toss or two will allow win conditions to muscle through Mr. Mime with no need for paralysis. To make it a statement: if most or all of your remaining Pokemon, especially the one you plan to win the game with, are faster or can feasibly become faster than Mr. Mime, do not bother with Thunder Wave. I saw at least a few RBYPL VI games where a player clicked Thunder Wave in a Mr. Mime ditto when all they had left was like Charizard and Fearow. These Pokemon don't need paralysis to win. They need damage.
There is no ubiquitous rule for this. If you think you're winning the game with something like Porygon, Nidoking, Golduck, or a Swords Dance user that isn't Charizard, then by all means, click Thunder Wave. That's probably your best move. But please actually think about what you and your opponent have left on your teams before thoughtlessly clicking this move.
Additionally, there is this prevailing school of thought to avoid the Mr. Mime trade at all costs. Players get oddly spiritual about this exchange, like it's the dividing line between old and new players or bad and good players. Avoiding the Mr. Mime trade is, to put it bluntly, just not that relevant in the outcome of the match, and whether preserving your Mr. Mime for the lategame matters will fluctuate wildly on a game-to-game basis. Again, Mr. Mime is seldom a sweeper. It is largely most useful for trading, so if it trades for Mr. Mime and maybe a sacrifice later, so be it. That's a job well done.
Some people refuse to put Venomoth in S because it's not a true 100% usage Pokemon like Mr. Mime and kind of Charizard, but wow is it so much better than everything else below it. People act like this Pokemon is a necessary evil that is good because of Sleep Powder and Stun Spore and not much else. This is so wrong. Venomoth boasts an excellent defensive typing (a lot of Pokemon struggle to hit this for super effective damage), a great speed tier for revenge killing and maintaining pressure, and a Psychic that is incredibly difficult to contest. A lot of people forget that Venomoth is actually a real Pokemon and make teams that get absolutely destroyed by it. Think before you sleep sack this, it's not an OU Jynx.
I hadn't been a huge fan of Kabutops historically, but it felt really good in the current meta. Fearow and Moltres remain really common and Kabutops can often secure these matchups comfortably. A good speed tier and decent typing allow it to be pretty useful even if it doesn't find a Pokemon to counter. I was shocked by how much I used it, but my opponents kept running teams weak to it.
One thing that is quite notable about Kabutops is that it really can't be walled (Gastly is probably the closest you will get). I find that a lot of players will build themselves into a corner by bringing too many Pokemon that have one or more difficult matchups. Contrary to what some may believe, I do think NU has many options for sturdy builds that are at least passable into virtually every matchup. You don't really feel like you're setting yourself up to fail against anything when you run Kabutops, or any of the Pokemon above it on this VR. The fact that you secure matchups against two tough Pokemon is really more of a bonus than the key selling point for running Kabutops. I do think a handful of the Pokemon coming up next on this VR can be a lot more impactful than Kabutops, perhaps even if we consider average performance, but the low points of these Pokemon are often what caused them to be placed where they are.
Seadra is still my GOAT. I'd probably call it the second-best win condition in the tier (Charizard takes it for me, and I'd maybe argue that the next contender, Fearow, usually makes for a better breaker than a sweeper). It beats anyone who slacks on Water-type Pokemon comfortably and can circumvent tough matchups if you don't make its presence on your team too obvious.
By the way, Water Spam is an incredible archetype. I've seen the RBY Discord call this fishy and bad, but it is incredibly solid. There are no win conditions that can chain kill Water-type Pokemon, so they simply are not a liability. Yes, Mr. Mime and Magneton exist, but they cannot sweep through Waters. Mr. Mime is frail and likely to get drawn out early anyway. Magneton is slower than every Water-type Pokemon except Poliwrath, which it merely ties, and most of them (especially Blastoise) can and should tech Earthquake to deal like 50%. I think every team I built had at least one Water-type Pokemon, with teams of two or even three being in my builder as well (especially if one is going to be leading).
I have long maintained that Porygon is an NU Pokemon, and it now feels better than ever. A lot of Pokemon are just plainly incapable of making permanent progress against this Pokemon, because Porygon is virtually the only Pokemon in NU capable of reversing progress (using Rest is kind of hard and Staryu isn't really viable). In NU, there is absolutely nothing worse than allowing your opponent to make permanent progress while you make reversible progress. Most Pokemon cannot afford to mess around with Porygon. If your Pokemon can't make progress, you probably need to get it out, because Porygon is actively restoring itself while you sit there, mulling around for a critical hit or whatever. I like to run things like Amnesia Golduck and Swords Dance Kabutops from time to time just because they are Water-type Pokemon that can get around Porygon in a pinch without counting on something else paralyzing it first. Porygon can and has beaten entire teams alone and it has a number of sets with which to ruin your day. This is a real NU Pokemon that you need to respect and should probably run.
I unironically think we could look into banning Poliwhirl. It does not play the game. I don't like using Poliwhirl very much because it's really not that sturdy in a tier that has a lot of really strong options that can assemble a decent backbone. Poliwhirl can get in the way of this consistency. However, when you do not have the time or bandwidth to actually play NU, you can just use this Pokemon instead. Hence my Week 6 set.
While it should basically always be a lead, Poliwhirl has a decent Speed tier, so it happens to have a passable late game prowess as well, if you can keep damage off of it.
Typically, a different Water-type Pokemon will be preferred to Golduck on your team, but its access to Amnesia and a Speed tier above that of Kabutops make it worth considering on some teams that really benefit from one or both of those traits. Using Poliwrath, Blastoise, or Golduck (or some combination) should be a calculated decision based on your team's needs. All are pretty solid. Poliwrath narrowly takes it for me because of the utility of Hypnosis, and the surprise option of Amnesia. Thanks to typing and stats, Blastoise is a slightly better defensive piece, giving it a strong case to be used over or alongside Poliwrath. It's one of the best backbone Pokemon in the tier (contrary to what I've seen some people say recently). Golduck's bulk, while comparable, is consequentially worse (see Charizard calcs, for example), and it sadly does matter pretty often. But the downsides aren't always felt and the upsides are nice. It seems a bit excessive to have three pretty similar Pokemon all in NU (and a whopping six Water-type Pokemon total), but I do think all of them sufficiently justify their existence at this point.
[Sprite Issue]
Raticate just honestly isn't that great. I wouldn't call it bad or not NU by any means, but its damage output really just doesn't justify its pitiful bulk and good but not great Speed tier. I used this Pokemon a few times on instruction from my managers, but it never really felt solid. Even though Raticate is much harder to truly counter, Fearow always felt better thanks to a superior Speed tier, immunity to Earthquake, and passable bulk.
I've never been a huge fan of Nidoking in NU (and I think it's terrible in UU), but it has a place. I saw a lot of Magneton this tournament and I think Nidoking has the lowest opportunity cost of all the Pokemon that hard counter it. It's the only Ground-type Pokemon with a real Speed tier, so it can at least revenge kill or something if it doesn't find a great matchup. It's kind of like Kabutops in that regard, but Kabutops has a higher floor on its performance. Can't believe I used this Pokemon, and multiple times at that.
Magneton is kind of bait. While it has incredible damage output and multiple strong matchups into high-profile Pokemon, it is simply incapable of converting good matchups into sure wins. Magneton is slow and fairly frail. The Pokemon that it beats in a head-to-head are very capable of overwhelming it over the course of a match. Unlike say Seadra, it can't dominate a strong matchup simply because it lacks the tools to sustain a sweep. That's it.
Magneton has its uses and probably ought to remain NU, but it isn't something you should use particularly frequently. I used it a bit to start, but then I played Magneton + Fearow into a Graveler and felt completely helpless, which is largely an avoidable feeling in NU. Remembering that I can just run a solid build, I nearly stopped running this thing entirely because there is little point to fishing with it when it can't even dominate its good matchups. Meanwhile, its bad matchups are some of the worst matchups that you can reasonably construct in NU. Compare this to something like Nidoking, which is strong in its good matchups and just kind of mediocre to below average in its bad matchups.
I think Graveler is a very real Pokemon and I do respect it when I build teams. However, I never like building with it. I suspect it might just be my playstyle or team preferences, but I find Graveler to be a regular liability. It can be very difficult to position with a horrific speed tier and two 4× super effective weaknesses. I know other players can get it to work though, so it has its place.
[Sprite Issue]
Arcanine isn't great. It has decent bulk and Leer has been a very cute development for it. It also contests Mr. Mime, Venomoth, and Moltres pretty well (though beware of Rest on Moltres). However, I think we are in a very Water- and Porygon-heavy metagame right now, so Arcanine is looking especially unemployed. Ever since lead Mr. Mime started fading — and it should, lead Mr. Mime is bad — I personally stopped really running it, but nowadays, I really don't see much utility.
Venusaur just does not fit well in this metagame. It invites in numerous dangerous Pokemon, including Charizard, Mr. Mime, Venomoth, Fearow, Porygon, and Moltres, to which you really should not be giving free turns. Its decent into Water-type Pokemon, but it's not really a counter to Water Spam or anything, given how much damage Blizzard does and how easy it is to find a Pokemon that can switch into Venusaur on most teams. The main thing I ever want to use Venusaur for is to get a sleep inducer that can comfortably contest Magneton.
I saw Sandslash get used a few times, but I really don't know what it's doing. It has good damage output, but the Speed tier leaves it in a worse position than Nidoking in most cases. It'd probably be next on the VR if I was being exhaustive. I really don't have the data or experience to sincerely want to rank this.
I considered Rapidash a few times, but never used it. I think the Speed tier could be worth it. It's not terribly uncommon for Charizard and Fearow to sit around in the late game with just a a little health. Aside from Aerodactyl and Scyther, Rapidash is the only Pokemon that can capitalize on this without needing Agility. Like with Arcanine though, I just don't think it's particularly compatible with the current metagame.
Exeggcute is so bad. Do not use it. It is not viable. I will not rank it.
Exeggcute loses to basically every single Pokemon in the tier, and badly. Mr. Mime is its only decent matchup, and it's honestly not even that great beyond clicking Explosion. "Trading Exeggcute for Mr. Mime to free up your own Mr. Mime" is not a credible strategy. As stated all the way at the beginning of this analysis, Mr. Mime is not sweeping in the majority of games. You are trading with a Pokemon to free up a different Pokemon to go trade. That is your best case. Exeggcute has very few reliable entry points because it is slow and can be OHKOed by almost every Pokemon (factoring in critical hits), so it might do nothing. Every time you think Exeggcute could be a good addition to your team, strongly consider using Venomoth instead.
Did you know Magneton beats this one-versus-one? Magenton can even win upon switching in.
Charizard is the best Pokemon in RBY NU. It appeared on every team I used and every team I built. It's a solid lead and the single best win condition in probably any RBY tier. Even more so than Tauros, if there is a Charizard, there is a way. Players who use Charizard well are virtually never out of contention to win a game until their last Pokemon faints. Think players like Toxin Boost who know how and when to press Charizard entries and convert them not into "progress," but into outright victories. Players who don't constantly respect Charizard will lose a lot of games they shouldn't. Simple as that.
Mr. Mime is still really good and everyone knows it. However, this has to be the most misused Pokemon in any RBY tier. I've said this so many times before in the Discord and I am going to publish it here now: you do not need to click Thunder Wave to start every matchup, particularly in the Mr. Mime ditto. I have won so many games by just attacking the opposing Mr. Mime with Seismic Toss instead of clicking Thunder Wave. While clicking Thunder Wave is a very justifiable play, potentially even in a majority of situations, it should distinctly not be your default play. Let's assess some considerations.
Mr. Mime isn't nearly as much of a win condition as people like to pretend it is. It isn't fast enough, enduring enough, or strong enough to muscle through multiple Pokemon in most games. This is just a reality. Mr. Mime will usually want to trade, often with itself, and that's okay. Cutting to the chase with Seismic Toss, especially if you catch a switch, is just better if we look strictly at the one-versus-one, which actually kind of matters for this Pokemon in this metagame.
Moreover, damage is king in this metagame. When we look at most of the Pokemon that usually win games in this tier — Charizard, Seadra, Fearow, Moltres — notice that they all either can or do outspeed Mr. Mime. These Pokemon need damage on Mr. Mime to sweep through it, not paralysis. Mr. Mime is very frail. A Seismic Toss or two will allow win conditions to muscle through Mr. Mime with no need for paralysis. To make it a statement: if most or all of your remaining Pokemon, especially the one you plan to win the game with, are faster or can feasibly become faster than Mr. Mime, do not bother with Thunder Wave. I saw at least a few RBYPL VI games where a player clicked Thunder Wave in a Mr. Mime ditto when all they had left was like Charizard and Fearow. These Pokemon don't need paralysis to win. They need damage.
There is no ubiquitous rule for this. If you think you're winning the game with something like Porygon, Nidoking, Golduck, or a Swords Dance user that isn't Charizard, then by all means, click Thunder Wave. That's probably your best move. But please actually think about what you and your opponent have left on your teams before thoughtlessly clicking this move.
Additionally, there is this prevailing school of thought to avoid the Mr. Mime trade at all costs. Players get oddly spiritual about this exchange, like it's the dividing line between old and new players or bad and good players. Avoiding the Mr. Mime trade is, to put it bluntly, just not that relevant in the outcome of the match, and whether preserving your Mr. Mime for the lategame matters will fluctuate wildly on a game-to-game basis. Again, Mr. Mime is seldom a sweeper. It is largely most useful for trading, so if it trades for Mr. Mime and maybe a sacrifice later, so be it. That's a job well done.
Some people refuse to put Venomoth in S because it's not a true 100% usage Pokemon like Mr. Mime and kind of Charizard, but wow is it so much better than everything else below it. People act like this Pokemon is a necessary evil that is good because of Sleep Powder and Stun Spore and not much else. This is so wrong. Venomoth boasts an excellent defensive typing (a lot of Pokemon struggle to hit this for super effective damage), a great speed tier for revenge killing and maintaining pressure, and a Psychic that is incredibly difficult to contest. A lot of people forget that Venomoth is actually a real Pokemon and make teams that get absolutely destroyed by it. Think before you sleep sack this, it's not an OU Jynx.
I hadn't been a huge fan of Kabutops historically, but it felt really good in the current meta. Fearow and Moltres remain really common and Kabutops can often secure these matchups comfortably. A good speed tier and decent typing allow it to be pretty useful even if it doesn't find a Pokemon to counter. I was shocked by how much I used it, but my opponents kept running teams weak to it.
One thing that is quite notable about Kabutops is that it really can't be walled (Gastly is probably the closest you will get). I find that a lot of players will build themselves into a corner by bringing too many Pokemon that have one or more difficult matchups. Contrary to what some may believe, I do think NU has many options for sturdy builds that are at least passable into virtually every matchup. You don't really feel like you're setting yourself up to fail against anything when you run Kabutops, or any of the Pokemon above it on this VR. The fact that you secure matchups against two tough Pokemon is really more of a bonus than the key selling point for running Kabutops. I do think a handful of the Pokemon coming up next on this VR can be a lot more impactful than Kabutops, perhaps even if we consider average performance, but the low points of these Pokemon are often what caused them to be placed where they are.
Seadra is still my GOAT. I'd probably call it the second-best win condition in the tier (Charizard takes it for me, and I'd maybe argue that the next contender, Fearow, usually makes for a better breaker than a sweeper). It beats anyone who slacks on Water-type Pokemon comfortably and can circumvent tough matchups if you don't make its presence on your team too obvious.
By the way, Water Spam is an incredible archetype. I've seen the RBY Discord call this fishy and bad, but it is incredibly solid. There are no win conditions that can chain kill Water-type Pokemon, so they simply are not a liability. Yes, Mr. Mime and Magneton exist, but they cannot sweep through Waters. Mr. Mime is frail and likely to get drawn out early anyway. Magneton is slower than every Water-type Pokemon except Poliwrath, which it merely ties, and most of them (especially Blastoise) can and should tech Earthquake to deal like 50%. I think every team I built had at least one Water-type Pokemon, with teams of two or even three being in my builder as well (especially if one is going to be leading).
I have long maintained that Porygon is an NU Pokemon, and it now feels better than ever. A lot of Pokemon are just plainly incapable of making permanent progress against this Pokemon, because Porygon is virtually the only Pokemon in NU capable of reversing progress (using Rest is kind of hard and Staryu isn't really viable). In NU, there is absolutely nothing worse than allowing your opponent to make permanent progress while you make reversible progress. Most Pokemon cannot afford to mess around with Porygon. If your Pokemon can't make progress, you probably need to get it out, because Porygon is actively restoring itself while you sit there, mulling around for a critical hit or whatever. I like to run things like Amnesia Golduck and Swords Dance Kabutops from time to time just because they are Water-type Pokemon that can get around Porygon in a pinch without counting on something else paralyzing it first. Porygon can and has beaten entire teams alone and it has a number of sets with which to ruin your day. This is a real NU Pokemon that you need to respect and should probably run.
I unironically think we could look into banning Poliwhirl. It does not play the game. I don't like using Poliwhirl very much because it's really not that sturdy in a tier that has a lot of really strong options that can assemble a decent backbone. Poliwhirl can get in the way of this consistency. However, when you do not have the time or bandwidth to actually play NU, you can just use this Pokemon instead. Hence my Week 6 set.
While it should basically always be a lead, Poliwhirl has a decent Speed tier, so it happens to have a passable late game prowess as well, if you can keep damage off of it.
Typically, a different Water-type Pokemon will be preferred to Golduck on your team, but its access to Amnesia and a Speed tier above that of Kabutops make it worth considering on some teams that really benefit from one or both of those traits. Using Poliwrath, Blastoise, or Golduck (or some combination) should be a calculated decision based on your team's needs. All are pretty solid. Poliwrath narrowly takes it for me because of the utility of Hypnosis, and the surprise option of Amnesia. Thanks to typing and stats, Blastoise is a slightly better defensive piece, giving it a strong case to be used over or alongside Poliwrath. It's one of the best backbone Pokemon in the tier (contrary to what I've seen some people say recently). Golduck's bulk, while comparable, is consequentially worse (see Charizard calcs, for example), and it sadly does matter pretty often. But the downsides aren't always felt and the upsides are nice. It seems a bit excessive to have three pretty similar Pokemon all in NU (and a whopping six Water-type Pokemon total), but I do think all of them sufficiently justify their existence at this point.
[Sprite Issue]Raticate just honestly isn't that great. I wouldn't call it bad or not NU by any means, but its damage output really just doesn't justify its pitiful bulk and good but not great Speed tier. I used this Pokemon a few times on instruction from my managers, but it never really felt solid. Even though Raticate is much harder to truly counter, Fearow always felt better thanks to a superior Speed tier, immunity to Earthquake, and passable bulk.
I've never been a huge fan of Nidoking in NU (and I think it's terrible in UU), but it has a place. I saw a lot of Magneton this tournament and I think Nidoking has the lowest opportunity cost of all the Pokemon that hard counter it. It's the only Ground-type Pokemon with a real Speed tier, so it can at least revenge kill or something if it doesn't find a great matchup. It's kind of like Kabutops in that regard, but Kabutops has a higher floor on its performance. Can't believe I used this Pokemon, and multiple times at that.
Magneton is kind of bait. While it has incredible damage output and multiple strong matchups into high-profile Pokemon, it is simply incapable of converting good matchups into sure wins. Magneton is slow and fairly frail. The Pokemon that it beats in a head-to-head are very capable of overwhelming it over the course of a match. Unlike say Seadra, it can't dominate a strong matchup simply because it lacks the tools to sustain a sweep. That's it.
Magneton has its uses and probably ought to remain NU, but it isn't something you should use particularly frequently. I used it a bit to start, but then I played Magneton + Fearow into a Graveler and felt completely helpless, which is largely an avoidable feeling in NU. Remembering that I can just run a solid build, I nearly stopped running this thing entirely because there is little point to fishing with it when it can't even dominate its good matchups. Meanwhile, its bad matchups are some of the worst matchups that you can reasonably construct in NU. Compare this to something like Nidoking, which is strong in its good matchups and just kind of mediocre to below average in its bad matchups.
I think Graveler is a very real Pokemon and I do respect it when I build teams. However, I never like building with it. I suspect it might just be my playstyle or team preferences, but I find Graveler to be a regular liability. It can be very difficult to position with a horrific speed tier and two 4× super effective weaknesses. I know other players can get it to work though, so it has its place.
[Sprite Issue]Arcanine isn't great. It has decent bulk and Leer has been a very cute development for it. It also contests Mr. Mime, Venomoth, and Moltres pretty well (though beware of Rest on Moltres). However, I think we are in a very Water- and Porygon-heavy metagame right now, so Arcanine is looking especially unemployed. Ever since lead Mr. Mime started fading — and it should, lead Mr. Mime is bad — I personally stopped really running it, but nowadays, I really don't see much utility.
Venusaur just does not fit well in this metagame. It invites in numerous dangerous Pokemon, including Charizard, Mr. Mime, Venomoth, Fearow, Porygon, and Moltres, to which you really should not be giving free turns. Its decent into Water-type Pokemon, but it's not really a counter to Water Spam or anything, given how much damage Blizzard does and how easy it is to find a Pokemon that can switch into Venusaur on most teams. The main thing I ever want to use Venusaur for is to get a sleep inducer that can comfortably contest Magneton.
I saw Sandslash get used a few times, but I really don't know what it's doing. It has good damage output, but the Speed tier leaves it in a worse position than Nidoking in most cases. It'd probably be next on the VR if I was being exhaustive. I really don't have the data or experience to sincerely want to rank this.
I considered Rapidash a few times, but never used it. I think the Speed tier could be worth it. It's not terribly uncommon for Charizard and Fearow to sit around in the late game with just a a little health. Aside from Aerodactyl and Scyther, Rapidash is the only Pokemon that can capitalize on this without needing Agility. Like with Arcanine though, I just don't think it's particularly compatible with the current metagame.
Exeggcute is so bad. Do not use it. It is not viable. I will not rank it.
Exeggcute loses to basically every single Pokemon in the tier, and badly. Mr. Mime is its only decent matchup, and it's honestly not even that great beyond clicking Explosion. "Trading Exeggcute for Mr. Mime to free up your own Mr. Mime" is not a credible strategy. As stated all the way at the beginning of this analysis, Mr. Mime is not sweeping in the majority of games. You are trading with a Pokemon to free up a different Pokemon to go trade. That is your best case. Exeggcute has very few reliable entry points because it is slow and can be OHKOed by almost every Pokemon (factoring in critical hits), so it might do nothing. Every time you think Exeggcute could be a good addition to your team, strongly consider using Venomoth instead.
Did you know Magneton beats this one-versus-one? Magenton can even win upon switching in.
I wanted to cover a lot more, like leads, sets, teams, replays, and general strategies, but I only have so much time these days and I wanted to get this post out while the iron of discussion was still hot. I might release another post about those things and the Pokemon for which I didn't write annotations at a later date, but I don't want to promise anything. Thank you to the Glacial Articunos for drafting me for RBYPL VI and shoutouts to the whole RBY NU pool. I don't care what anyone says, I think NU has put up some of the most competitive pools in RBYPL for a few years in a row at this point. Keep up the good work y'all. Cheers!
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My first RBYPL is in the books, think my play probably deserved a better record but so it goes. There have been some... interesting takes here recently so I wanted to share my own, and my one hot take for y'all to yell at me about.
This was a very fun tour, and I'm grateful to everyone on the Washed Wartortles for drafting and supporting me, even the weeks when I played quite badly. Let's all enjoy the last few weeks this version of the tier exists.
S Rank - We really don't need to say anything else about these guys right?
A+ Rank - The defensive backbone of this tier and the monster responsible for tearing it down. It feels like a lot of people disrespect Fearow's damage output, even if they're bringing a rock, and if you didn't bring a rock, you don't have a real switch if you get crit.
A Rank - These guys are good. Yes, even Arcanine. Especially Arcanine even. You really only have to look at Toxin Boost 's usage to see the truth - since the start of RBYPL he has used Arcanine 15 times. He has won 13 of those games. Part of that is that he's simply the best fire-spam pilot in the pool, and a very good player. But I also think it's evidence that Arcanine can be very very good when used properly, and stuff like Leer is helping it get over the hump even more. I'm also going to mention Magneton, since it was discussed over in Volk's post - I don't think you can rate a mon whose presence warps building so strongly any lower than A. It's true that Magneton has fairly polarizing matchups, but those matchups are often themselves opportunities. Graveler is Poliwrath food, Nidoking lets in Venomoth for free, and Sandslash has a host of problems that leave it buried in ZU. To play Magneton well, especially in tough matchups, you have to play and double aggressively.
B Rank - It's sad that my guy Moltres has fallen off like this, but losing Fire Spin really hurts. It still has a place on fire spam structures and as a reasonably bulky guy, but it loses a lot of momentum now that it could avoid before. Poliwhirl is the devil. I never want to use it, and I never want to see my opponent use it. It's the most volatile mon in the tier rn, but sometimes you just have to gamble. Porygon is an NU mon. Golduck is an NU mon. Nidoking is the best ground.
C Rank - I actually found some good usage for Graveler this tour as a dedicated bomb. I built multiple teams where the other 5 mons could handle a potential Magneton by themselves, and clicked Explosion on Graveler as soon as possible, often denying sleep by OHKOing Venomoth or chunking Poliwrath for 75%, which also supports fire spam structures well. You can, of course, also play it normally as a check to the Magnetons and Fearows of the world, but you often have to play aggressively to not get taken advantage of by the many waters in this tier. I've used everything else in this tier at least once in tour, and all have a valid niche, but realistically this is more of a Graveler in C+, everyone else in C situation, I just didn't want to make more tiers.
D Rank - I think you could make a valid argument to use any of these on an NU team. For the most part, I wouldn't, but other people have!
A+ Rank - The defensive backbone of this tier and the monster responsible for tearing it down. It feels like a lot of people disrespect Fearow's damage output, even if they're bringing a rock, and if you didn't bring a rock, you don't have a real switch if you get crit.
A Rank - These guys are good. Yes, even Arcanine. Especially Arcanine even. You really only have to look at Toxin Boost 's usage to see the truth - since the start of RBYPL he has used Arcanine 15 times. He has won 13 of those games. Part of that is that he's simply the best fire-spam pilot in the pool, and a very good player. But I also think it's evidence that Arcanine can be very very good when used properly, and stuff like Leer is helping it get over the hump even more. I'm also going to mention Magneton, since it was discussed over in Volk's post - I don't think you can rate a mon whose presence warps building so strongly any lower than A. It's true that Magneton has fairly polarizing matchups, but those matchups are often themselves opportunities. Graveler is Poliwrath food, Nidoking lets in Venomoth for free, and Sandslash has a host of problems that leave it buried in ZU. To play Magneton well, especially in tough matchups, you have to play and double aggressively.
B Rank - It's sad that my guy Moltres has fallen off like this, but losing Fire Spin really hurts. It still has a place on fire spam structures and as a reasonably bulky guy, but it loses a lot of momentum now that it could avoid before. Poliwhirl is the devil. I never want to use it, and I never want to see my opponent use it. It's the most volatile mon in the tier rn, but sometimes you just have to gamble. Porygon is an NU mon. Golduck is an NU mon. Nidoking is the best ground.
C Rank - I actually found some good usage for Graveler this tour as a dedicated bomb. I built multiple teams where the other 5 mons could handle a potential Magneton by themselves, and clicked Explosion on Graveler as soon as possible, often denying sleep by OHKOing Venomoth or chunking Poliwrath for 75%, which also supports fire spam structures well. You can, of course, also play it normally as a check to the Magnetons and Fearows of the world, but you often have to play aggressively to not get taken advantage of by the many waters in this tier. I've used everything else in this tier at least once in tour, and all have a valid niche, but realistically this is more of a Graveler in C+, everyone else in C situation, I just didn't want to make more tiers.
D Rank - I think you could make a valid argument to use any of these on an NU team. For the most part, I wouldn't, but other people have!
This was a very fun tour, and I'm grateful to everyone on the Washed Wartortles for drafting and supporting me, even the weeks when I played quite badly. Let's all enjoy the last few weeks this version of the tier exists.
Yoooo what up NUers. You're stuck with me now. It's time once again for the interim VR, as well as a way to preserve this meta game before the UU drops start to take over.
Here are the qualifications and reqs decided by the council.
Played in at least 3 NU games during RBYPL VI and won at least 1 of them
Toxin Boost
THE_CHUNGLER
hammer798
torkonpeter
Volk
Koalacance
Theycallmephil
Final 4 of this year's NU Cup
Ninja
hammer798
Maris Bonibell
Zpice
Top 4 of this year's NU Open
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Toxin Boost
Amaranth
Played in at least 3 NU games during NUFL and won at least 1 of them
TG2513 (yo thats me :D)
Wanted in 49 States
ButtGallon
NotVeryCake
THE_CHUNGLER
Maris Bonibell
Reminder that this isn't a new official VR. It's just an interim, so this won't affect the current tiers in any way. No mons will be rising or dropping from this VR. That being said, I would still like your honest thoughts please. If you 15 mentioned above want to rank, send me a PM on smogon or a DM on discord (tg2513) with a numerical VR.
An example of this would be:
1: Golbat
2: Ekans
3: Oddish
......
28: Magikarp
This would mean you think Golbat is the single best NU mon while Magikarp is the worst that you still consider good enough to rank.
Deadline for the VRs is 2 weeks after this was posted. If you have any questions or if you qualify and I missed your req, feel free to PM/DM me. Thank you.
Here are the qualifications and reqs decided by the council.
Played in at least 3 NU games during RBYPL VI and won at least 1 of them
Toxin Boost
THE_CHUNGLER
hammer798
torkonpeter
Volk
Koalacance
Theycallmephil
Final 4 of this year's NU Cup
Ninja
hammer798
Maris Bonibell
Zpice
Top 4 of this year's NU Open
Sabelette
THE_CHUNGLER
Toxin Boost
Amaranth
Played in at least 3 NU games during NUFL and won at least 1 of them
TG2513 (yo thats me :D)
Wanted in 49 States
ButtGallon
NotVeryCake
THE_CHUNGLER
Maris Bonibell
Reminder that this isn't a new official VR. It's just an interim, so this won't affect the current tiers in any way. No mons will be rising or dropping from this VR. That being said, I would still like your honest thoughts please. If you 15 mentioned above want to rank, send me a PM on smogon or a DM on discord (tg2513) with a numerical VR.
An example of this would be:
1: Golbat
2: Ekans
3: Oddish
......
28: Magikarp
This would mean you think Golbat is the single best NU mon while Magikarp is the worst that you still consider good enough to rank.
Deadline for the VRs is 2 weeks after this was posted. If you have any questions or if you qualify and I missed your req, feel free to PM/DM me. Thank you.
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