Lower Tiers RBY NU Hub

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Gonna go with something like this for now and see what develops, don't take the tier names too seriously, explanations/teamdump later perhaps
 
Going to be boring, I don't think many mons can be used in NU currently

Quick explanations to edit later:

S tier: Mr mime, the glue of the tier, only mon I never drop. Reliable t wave, good speed tier, can be played as a lead, as middlegame, as a cleaner
Charizard, many sets are possible, leads, mixed, sd, stoss

A Tier: Top tier threats. Usually define the identity of a team. Seadra and Moltres provide surprisingly good defensive utility as well

B Tier: The rest of the staples: Most of the waters, Moth for sleep, magneton both with rest for a more reliable middlegame piece or with some more aggressive sets with thunder/db, raticate as a breaker for fearows teams

C Tier (still NU): The situational. Arcanine can work as a lead, aereodactyl to punish fire spam, kabutops I've used mostly to mix up my scout but can be useful

D Tier (PU): The failed teams. Golduck for me it's on the cusp of being nu, but I usually prefer having any other water. The amnesia users also get access to sleep, Seadra can sweep with agility, Kabutops has value as a mixed attacker and has value as a moltres check and blastoise can sponge hits in a pinch.
Wigglytuff is another mon I've tried to make work, but if I want double normal I usually go for rat+fearow. Maybe time to experiment with triple normal
Nidoking is something I've used to mix up my scout, but never really felt good to play. Maybe it has some value with magneton's popularity, but I've never liked being weak to mime without something amazing to make up for it
The other sleepers. Early in the metagame life I've used venu much more than now, and during the middle I've used gastly.
Usable for sure, but the best teams used moth or the amnesia gang for sleep

everything else I think are just for fun mons.
I've used graveller, pory, sandslash, rapidash and dragonair but I don't consider them to have a niche yet
 

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Haven't been actively playing RBY NU lately but I watched the NU games in RBY PL, so I'mma submit my VR. I don't think there's anything controversial here, my thoughts seem to line up with the consensus.

S rank: Charizard & Mr. Mime, Charizard is just too good at winning games or leading and Mime basically has no answers besides itself or rarely seen NFEs.

A rank: Moth I think isn't fully S since it's mostly a sleep machine and it is technically replaceable in that role. Bulky waters check a lot of stuff and most importantly keep Seadra from running rampant, Seadra can just steal games with Agility, Fearow hits like a truck and SubTWaveRest Mag has demonstrated to me that it's a real threat.

B rank: Memory might be faulty but I don't recall Moltres overperforming much, mostly just doing solid with its meaty stats. Kabutops will always have its role in oppressing Normal attackers and Moltres. Raticate feels largely overshadowed by Fearow nowadays. I feel bad to put Aero this low, but the lack of damage output from no STAB except Sky Attack isn't doing it any favors. And that is a very risky button to press with Magneton doing as well as it is.

B- rank: On paper Whirl is very threatening but hasn't had a lot of Ws and Golduck isn't bad but finds itself outdone in every individual area. Bulky Water? Blastoise and Poliwrath are notably bulkier. Outspeeding base 80s? Not very relevant right now, but Seadra does that and more with Agility. Amnesia? Whirl seems more threatening to me in that role. Golduck kinda needs a meta where 2 of those traits are needed if it wants to be used. Not entirely sure where to place these guys but decided to err on the side of ranking them NU.

C & D ranks: A bunch of stuff with niches but don't feel like going into it.
 
I played fairly well in RBYPL and won the first RBY NU Invitational. Let's discuss.

In most Pokemon tiers, especially when it comes to tournament games, I am generally a conservative player. I tend to use only a handful of different teams that contain a handful of unique Pokemon, as I tend to feel very comfortable using things that have demonstrated an ability to function under my direction. This can work for or against me. In Invitational, I believe this helped me a lot. While many players took the opportunity to experiment with fresh Pokemon in a new metagame, I largely stuck with what I found worked for me. Seadra in particular was a huge part of my Invitational run. As I said in my ALTPL post at the start of this year, "Seadra does especially well into bad teams." That statement was uttered in a different meta, but it was remains exceedingly true in this one as well. This conservative play worked somewhat in RBYPL, but with players becoming stronger and receiving support from their teammates, my conservative teams became ripe for exploitation. Some of my opponents' exploitative counter-teams worked better than others, however. I fully expected many of the counter-teams that I would go on to face, but frankly I lacked the time, resources, and confidence to counter-counter-team them. Alas.

I think this conservatism will come through in my VR. There is some creative and predictive picking in there, but most of it, especially the top, is very much based on stuff I actually like using. There are a lot of Pokemon on my VR that I like in theory, and may very well be very good with some practice on my end, but if I didn't feel comfortable using it or feel threatened by it at the time, it was hard for me to rank it highly in earnest.

The RBY NU Invitational and RBYPL V were quite a lot of fun. I did find the best-of-five utterly exhausting though, especially when paired with the Belgian Pro League Format. My longest set took 2 hours and 40 minutes. Tiresome, to say the least. However, the duration of the sets was arguably less annoying than the variance therein. With some of my sets being as short as about 30 minutes, it was incredibly difficult to appropriately schedule these sets into my week. Because of RBYPL, I ended up both unnecessarily canceling plans because of sets that ended early and showing up late to plans because of sets that ran long. This was really frustrating mentally and made me increasingly unhappy playing this game with each passing week. I understand the value of best-of-five, but I do not think the benefits outweigh the nuisances. Best-of-five may be fine for the Invitational if it must stay somewhere, but I think it's just excessive in RBYPL, given the sheer number of games played per team per week. I don't want to make this post about best-of-five drama, but I know if I don't complain about it somewhere, proponents thereof will act as though there was no opposition.

Right now, I'd call RBY NU pretty healthy. Charizard, followed by Fearow, stand out as the Pokemon that are most troublesome, but I'm not quite ready to take action on either, especially the latter. Partial-trapping needs to go; of that I am certain. The tier still has its fair share of nonsense, but it honestly feels about on par with what I've come to expect from RBY tiers at this point. There were robberies and ugly upsets, but nothing I haven't seen in other LTs or even OU. The tier is fun, reasonably healthy, fairly diverse, and will generally reward the stronger player. I'm fatigued with NU right now, but I like it.

For the record, I used partial-trapping, of all kinds, exactly zero times in both the Invitational and RBYPL. This was done largely out of principle. I like the game more and think I play better when I don't have these moves tempting me. Without them, you actually need to play the game.

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I was originally going to drop a tell-all manifesto here, but I think most of my "secrets" have been figured out by now. As with last time, I'll keep it brief, sticking to basic overviews and maybe a few key insights that may be somewhat unique to me. I'm not giving any teams this time, sorry.

:Mr. Mime:
There's not much new to say about Mr. Mime. It has so many extremely valuable traits and so few drawbacks. I'm sure plenty of teams exist that don't strictly need it, but I seldom found myself unhappy that I chose to run it. I like it on basically every team. Positioning Mr. Mime to pressure key threats with strong attacks and Thunder Wave is a key skill in this tier.
I think it's a terrible lead. This is admittedly hyperbolic, because Mr. Mime is so good that it won't drag a team down much by being a lead, but its strengths are very often better elsewhere on a team and several other Pokemon just have more tools that make them stronger leads.
Avoid trading your Mr. Mime for your opponent's, unless you absolutely have to or if you simply don't benefit from its traits anymore. When it comes to tough situations in RBY NU, you need to constantly prioritize and reprioritize what can actually win you the game, not just the Pokemon that's higher on the VR.

:Charizard:
Playing with and around Charizard is kind of the essence of RBY NU, at least right now. You need to constantly respect Swords Dance Charizard to play this tier successfully. Revenge killing needs to be done especially mindfully in this tier. Charizard can eat entire teams and reverse seemingly lost games. It's arguably broken, but it is an amusingly consistent comeback mechanic for good players that had bad openings, for whatever reason.
Charizard isn't my favorite lead because I don't love wasting such a strong Pokemon right away. However, it has a really desirable matchup spread and is remarkably customizable for a huge pool of matchups and early game lines. Fire Spin is a thing.

:Venomoth:
I had Venomoth at #2 for a very long time, but a growing appreciation for Charizard and Poliwrath knocked it down a little. Fast and reliable sleep is the dominant reason to use Venomoth, but its typing actually makes it a surprisingly good emergency check to a lot of Pokemon, as it is actually pretty tricky to hit for super effective damage. Speed and status also make it very difficult to set up on, at least compared to other revenge killers. Also, with a successful Stun Spore on switch or a few Psychic Special drops, Venomoth has pretty good odds to defeat literally every Pokemon in the tier. Humorously, it somehow is one of the better answers to Charizard in the late game.
It's a decent lead with Water-type Pokemon and Magneton cropping up more to answer Charizard.
I don't this Pokemon needs a ban at all.

:Fearow:
I wasn't a huge fan of Fearow to start and wasn't even sure if it'd be NU. It's a little strange that it took a minute to click, as I've been a long-time believer of its strengths in even older editions of the tier. But with Electrode and Golem now gone, it's truthfully better than ever. It's obscenely quick and strong and has very few true checks, none of which are particularly strong on their own. Its damage output is just stupid, I really can't stress this enough. I'm not yet content ranking Fearow any higher than this, because it does have solid checks and it can inadvertently empower opposing Moltres and Seadra in certain situations. The exact trajectory is hard to predict, but with more meta development, I can honestly see this bird rise up to #1 in the tier.
It's a decent lead, I suppose.

:Seadra:
I might be ranking this too highly. Sturdier teams with smarter pilots have made Seadra a lot less potent. I still like it a lot though as one of the best win conditions in the tier. Success in NU often requires a lot of positioning of your setup Pokemon (usually one or more of Charizard, Fearow, Moltres, and of course Seadra) to close out a weakened team. Seadra is one of the better options to build around here. The choice(s) really comes down to what you want to be able to set up on and what kind of team support you can provide. It was my NU Invitational MVP, for sure (other than that one Venusaur; if you know, you know).
Rest, Hydro Pump, and Hyper Beam are all acceptable third moves. Though honestly, trying to never click this third move is kind of a goal. Maybe Ice Beam has some merit, because it at least has no drawbacks on click.

:Blastoise:
Blastoise is, on the surface, the least interesting Water-type Pokemon in this tier, having really no status moves of note. But its bulk is perfect for so many random calculations (see Mr. Mime, Charizard, and Fearow, as key examples). It's insane how much mileage you can get from Blastoise's HP if you play it well. It's also surprisingly customizable with a ton of strong moves including Surf, Hydro Pump, Blizzard, Earthquake, Seismic Toss, Counter, Rest, and probably more. I usually used four attacks and was pleased. It is very solid.
While I'm here, I'll say Blastoise is pretty emblematic of another RBY NU tier ethos. You should be constantly keeping calculations in mind during games. I saw a lot of players give up health or sacks for damage that literally did not impact any calculations. Identify your win conditions and set up your opponent's team for that route. Keeping a sack for later is often a lot more useful than the the damage you may get, even when factoring in the immediate free switch. Likewise, knowing when to part with a Pokemon, especially a "good" one, is crucial. Deal and accept damage with intent, and don't give up what doesn't need to be. It seems obvious, but it's not.

:Poliwrath:
Poliwrath is pretty similar to Blastoise. Hypnosis is a good tool, but hardly reliable. I never did, but I can imagine dropping it to make room for more coverage, as Poliwrath has pretty much all the good tools of Blastoise, as well as Psychic. Hypnosis allows Poliwrath to be functional as a lead, but it often makes Poliwrath "feel" worse, given the inaccuracy and lost move slot. On paper, Poliwrath has greater utility than Blastoise, but the slightly lower Speed and additional Fighting-type are major drawbacks. Letting Fearow click Drill Peck and Mr. Mime click Psychic completely freely is just bad.

:Moltres:
Moltres has an extremely high damage output and solid bulk, making it at least a pretty good check into a lot of the metagame. In particular, it's quite good at reversing a sweep from Raticate and especially Fearow. I originally had Moltres a lot higher on my VR, but players and their teams are getting better at handling it. Charizard is very good at exploiting it, which is an enormous issue. Moltres is thus just not a very good revenge killer, despite looking like an amazing one. Seadra can be another issue. Moltres also has some consistency issues, as all of its attacks are unreliable for one reason or another. Fire Spin Moltres is held back by consistency especially, but that set is genuinely broken and needs to be banned.
Moltres had a stint in the lead slot, but I think that era is largely over.

:Magneton:
Magneton can threaten a huge portion of this tier and even lead pretty well, but low Speed and no coverage make it largely incapable of doing sustained damage comparable to the huge attackers above it on this list. It tends to trade with itself a lot. While targets like Fearow, Charizard, and Water-type Pokemon seem like the main draws to use Magneton, in truth, Magneton is often best at drawing in opposing Mr. Mime and either slowing it down or knocking it out. This opens the gates for one's own Mr. Mime. Thunder Wave is a great tool for support and there is a small handful of games that Magneton is better at securing than any conventional boost sweeper. Did you know Magneton is also stopped cold by Ground-type Pokemon? Because that's an issue too.

:Raticate:
With Fearow unleashed, Raticate's lower damage output is pretty noticeable. It tends to be run alongside Fearow, but coverage and the option of Super Fang can create a niche just for itself. Its Body Slam still remains one of the single hardest moves to switch into. Pokemon like Charizard, Moltres, and Seadra can set up on it as they can with Fearow, but with much less safety. Raticate is usually best in the midgame, as it denies entry to sleepers and sweepers. In contrast, Fearow is legitimately good at all stages of the game.

:Arcanine:
I spammed Arcanine in the lead just to catch lead Mr. Mime and Venomoth. Lead Mr. Mime is pretty bad, so I don't see Arcanine sticking around for much longer, at least at its current prominence. Being good into Mr. Mime is strong, but not totally consistent on switch thanks to Special drops and paralysis. Versus Moltres is similar, looking good on paper, but truthfully being occasionally overwhelming thanks to critical hits. The Speed tier is nice though, helping it to muscle through a lot of tricky Pokemon. It exists largely in the same world as Raticate in regards to stopping Charizard and Seadra sweeps. It's not super easy to fit or justify on a team, especially outside of the lead slot, because it can expose a number of weaknesses to sweepers and has a fair number of competitors.

:Golduck:
Golduck isn't great, but I ultimately find myself just being more comfortable running it that using a lot of what's below it. Amnesia is genuinely really solid at sweeping and even reversing sweepers, especially Seadra. Golduck has strong matchups into both Water- and Fire-type heavy teams, really only conceding ground to heavily physically-oriented teams. It does, however, have a lot of competition, and it is not sturdy at all into Swords Dance Charizard. The Speed stat is actually pretty nice though, even when unboosted, getting the jump on Blastoise and Kabutops without having to settle for the bulk of Poliwhirl.

:Aerodactyl:
I never really liked Aerodactyl in RBY NU. The Speed tier is excellent, but it's bad at a lot of things that it looks like it'd be good at. It also gets hard walled by a number of Pokemon, though thankfully none of those Pokemon are particularly great. Although, Seadra in particular likes to see this Pokemon on the other side. With Charizard and Fearow being the main win conditions these days though, I think Aerodactyl may be due for a resurgence. While it's not a perfect answer to either of these, if such a thing even exists, it is guaranteed to be able to hit both Pokemon at least twice before going down. With people regularly winning games with Charizard sitting at less than 30% HP, there may be a time for Aerodactyl to come in and stop that. It's very situational and weak, but I think it has its place.

:Porygon:
Porygon went extremely underutilized. Teams with limited ability to spread paralysis or land critical hits can lose to a singular Porygon. Thunder Wave is an excellent tool for preventing sweepers from getting going in front of it, as well as for simply securing some value even when faced with an unfavorable team matchup. Porygon is also extremely customizable with a lot of good tools. I think there is a chance that this Pokemon is very underrated, including by myself.

:Kabutops:
Kabutops is easier to justify nowadays with Fearow being around more. Its Speed and damage output are also good, especially for a Water-type Pokemon. Kabutops just has a very awkward matchup spread that makes building with it a little difficult. A lot of really good Pokemon, as well as some niche stuff, have options for it. It fits well on just a handful of reasonably good builds.

:Poliwhirl:
Poliwhirl is incredibly inconsistent, but has a decently high ceiling. I think other Pokemon capture the matchup spread it has with more reliability, but the extra Speed and Hypnosis are compelling. I don't really like using a Pokemon like this in my play, but it is has a place and can be dangerous with good play or luck.

:Gastly:
Gastly does pretty well into Raticate, Aerodactyl, and Venusaur, a slew of matchups of dubious value. A decently quick Thunderbolt is a pretty rare trait in this meta, making it good into several key Water-type Pokemon. Hypnosis and Explosion are nice tools as well, especially for supporting sweepers by creating set up opportunities. Being knocked out by Charizard's (and Blastoise's) Earthquake more often than not is pretty dismal though, and most sweepers worth anything can eat through it with limited opposition. I'm extremely torn on putting Gastly in D or E Rank, but thankfully it doesn't matter.

:Graveler:
Graveler walls Fearow and Magneton (and Aerodactyl) and has decent damage output. Explosion is also a nice tool (see Gastly). I'd like to see more from Graveler, as it has believers and a few results, but a horrendous Speed and Water weakness make me reluctant to trust it. It may grow better with time though; just look at RBY PU. It's the best Charizard Hyper Beam eater in the tier; just don't miss.

:Primeape:
Primeape's peculiar coverage combination of Thunderbolt and Rock Slide is shockingly potent in RBY NU, and a 95 Speed is absolutely nothing to scoff at. Its damage output isn't great, especially when these strong moves are coming without a STAB boost, but it can exploit a handful of otherwise really solid builds and use its Speed to be at least somewhat helpful in most team matchups. Primeape seems very underrated and I hope it at least gets ranked.

:Venusaur:
Venusaur is tough to use. Razor Leaf is a great option, but without the Psychic or Stun Spore of Venomoth, a lot of Pokemon can give Venusaur a lot of trouble. Certain builds can be very weak to Venusaur though, and it could maybe be used to force out Charizard early or something. I really only considered using it when I wanted Venomoth but felt just a little too weak into Magneton.

:Wigglytuff:
Wigglytuff is probably better than I'm giving it credit, but it's really yet to excel. I never felt like I wanted it on any team, and I thought it was bad in the last meta. I hate dealing with the dreadful Speed. Thunder Wave is going to be its defining tool, but I don't know if it's enough, and there are other Pokemon available that offer Paralysis. The Hyper Beam is probably good.

:Dragonair:
APT can win games. Thunder Wave is pretty good. Next.

:Nidoking: :Rapidash: :Scyther: :Exeggcute: :Seaking: :Kingler:
I really didn't see, play with, or even think about much of F Rank, so I have little to say.
Nidoking has good coverage and walls Magneton, but loses to a lot of important Pokemon, including some sweepers.
Rapidash can pick off a weakened Charizard or Fearow.
Scyther can pick off a weakened Charizard or Fearow, but with higher accuracy and a worse typing.
Exeggcute has awful everything, but is okay into Mr. Mime and has strong utility options.
Seaking can theoretically do the same things as Seadra, and probably even outclass it in a few rare cases.
Kingler tries its best every day.

Of course, special thanks to my teammates in RBYPL. Thanks to the RBY NU Community for showing up and advancing this tier. The hosts of RBYPL and especially the Invitational deserve credit for pushing this tier along as well. Most special thanks to stunner047 for challenging me in Invitational grand finals, retaining me for RBYPL, and approving my builds. Cheers folks!
 
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so there are a few reasons for my choice here. one, as sabelette has brought up higher cutoffs are beneficial to the tier below from a practical pov bc they have more options, they can always ban some or all of the "extra" mons but gives them the option to keep some or all of them if theyd like to. two, i rly do tend to stay within the top eleven mons here when i am building as well as what i focus on preparing for from the opponent. three and maybe the biggest reason for me, is that the top eleven is the portion of this vr that feels like it has an actual basis, and from twelve and below rly felt like arbitrarily picking the order, many of these mons are not used enough rn to be able to accurately evaluate them (eg pory aero), and/or their viability is too dependent on fluctuations within the eleven 'core' mons to be able to rank them in a metagame that obv is still very much in flux (id put rk9 and all of my B2 in this category).
idt theres any objective criteria for what a "good cutoff" is but since the vr order really breaks down for me beyond #11, eg i could see arguments for at least 7 different mons for the #12 spot, it was ultimately rly a very clear decision for me that my nu/pu cutoff is between #11/#12

S: mime + fearow run this tier rn and belong on the vast majority of teams. while mr. mime absolutely has exploitable weaknesses, they are a bit difficult to take advantage of rn, as normal spam offense generally ends up very weak to at least one of magneton, moltres, or seadra. fearow > rat is a mixed bag for mime, no more paraslam but dedge crit ohkos so i dont see that as a big impact on mime one way or the other. but the next best phys attacker is arguably kabu which mime does not mind at all; moltres is often mimes biggest issue other than fearow. overall mime is in an excellent place, mime positioning is one of the most important aspects of nu gameplay rn and at this moment i think its the best mon in the tier.
~ fearow could def be argued for #1 but it does have somewhat of a kabu issue even if u still chip it pretty well, nonetheless this is the best fast revenger, its rly a pretty good way of finishing off a +2 charizard since you can take the hit even if u do lose the speed tie, it doesnt allow sleep, cant generally be outsped, and ofc its hbeam is the strongest attack in the tier.

A1: i think the rise of fearow is a p significant limitation on back zard, you really want it to be able to get that first ko and then get another strong +2 attack off, now you only have a 50% chance to get the second hit off. nonetheless its still a dangerous option in back, esp if theres an opposing molt; but also its still so good in the lead slot, with its only rly poor lead mu being poliwrath and with the option to run fire spin to significantly improve that.
~ i rly considered magneton #3, zard is more consistent and probably should have higher usage, however i think magneton (not zard) is the most centralizing mon in the builder, and often the most dangerous mon in games. magnets is rly the thing that limits fast spam and honestly limits aerodactyl usage in general. substitute (in addition to enabling it to safely rest in mirrors and vs other mons that cant break the sub) prevents physical attackers from freely taking hbeam damage on mag, and conversely mag has enough bulk to take their weaker physical attacks reasonably well. magneton also does well against quite a few other endgamers, especially seadra who cant even 2hko with surf into crit surf. at the same time, magneton lead is a very solid option, coinflipping vs both polis but in a way that imo is somewhat in mag's favor, and being overall favorable against zard with options to either twave into tbolt, or to tbolt turn 1 and potentially switch out turn 2 to eg one of molt/zard to finish it off.
obviously magneton can be shut down by grounds, or decently by venu tho ofc venu can be twaved, however the grounds and venu all are pretty bad mons, also grounds are bad vs p much any other endgamer so its risky to preserve them, overall i feel much more comfortable facing a ground with a magnets team compared to facing a magneton without a ground. (exeggcute is perhaps a better mon than any of those but egg is also 4hkod by magnetons tbolt lol.)
i do think u have to be a bit careful with not having too much of your magneton usage be in the lead position, as that can be very exploitable, eg by a lead nido which can just trade itself off if it doesnt get the mag lead mu, or by other strategies such as using lead venomoth to mitigate a magnets weakness.
but otherwise u rly can and should use this mon quite a lot despite the fact that it has some complete walls.

A2: i still tend to view wrath as the best sleeper in the tier, obviously the top two mons are rly bad mus for it but its near-impossible to have a team that doesnt give wrath pretty good opportunities somewhere, and wrath also covers key threats such as zard and seadra. its sm much less passive than any other zard check, the only sleeper that rly comes in on it well is poliwhirl, and it also cant rly be sleep blocked by anything. kabu is a very good partner for wrath to cover the fearow mu, while wrath provides a zard and seadra check for it. kabu ofc also is the best check to molt, tho molt outspeeds and can spin on it so even when you have kabu sometimes u may choose to eg let mime take a fblast to twave it first. body slam is a very nice click for kabu, esp with gastly falling off, pls dont drop bslam on it ever. i rly tend to use kabu + wrath as a pair rn so they could go in either order but wrath is also a good lead and sleep is sleep so ig wrath 5 lol.
~ moltres is a rly hard mon to rate, bc when it hits its moves it belongs much higher than this but lol. i think kabutops is too important to rly be able to justify dropping spin rn; obv u dont want to try to spin it repeatedly (unless its burned or psnd), but spin pivot vs kabu is often much better than any alternative esp since molt doesnt take that much damage on miss lol. spin is also somewhat relevant vs wrath. u also want some sort of plan for zard, fearow alone is not quite enough imo.
~ i rly prefer running two sleepers in this tier bc the sleepers are actually decent mons, and generally that means two of wrath/whirl/moth. moth whirl order can be whatever, i give moth the slight edge bc it can sleep magnets lol. whirl is a good lead option because it gives you an advantage vs lead poliwrath while also being very solid vs zard (or arc) lead, u have the counter strats with lowering def available or just surf followed by surf or hydro depending on roll, or hydro t1 followed by surf or hydro depending on roll if ur willing to gamble more; zard's bslam is relatively weak so its favorable anyway, also avoids any prediction issues of a switch on a turn 1 counter. midgame wrath is a very good wrath switchin to revenge sleep, and whirl can be a dangerous endgamer too esp vs other waters. not sure why some people think this mon is bad bc it does so much to me.
moth rly doesnt have a lot of good entry points imo, kabutops body slam is very iffy to come in on, magneton's tbolt does >40% with the para and crit chances, seadra usually 2hkos with one crit no 10% para but otherwise its shaky for the same reason, wrath is prob the least bad entry point but u dont want to come in on psychic and even if u come in on stoss or surf thats a roll to be kod by psychic crit afterward. so i dont rly love hard switching moth in on much rn, but from full its a good sleep gambler, and if it can land stun afterward makes a lot of progress after the sleep as usual. it does let magneton it a bit after the sleep, but less so if you run hyper beam bc hbeam can break magnetons's substitute. if not then if u dont get a psy drop in the first couple u likely will have to make risky plays to prevent magnets doing sub + rest shenanigans.
speaking of, ive rly been preferring hyper beam > dedge more and more on venomoth, you rarely get 2 dedges off anyway so just accept taking your hbeam damage on mime, and ofc sometimes the extra damage vs other stuff over psychic comes into play esp sleep blockers. not breaking magneton's substitute is kind of the nail in the coffin for dedge to me, hbeam is too good to pass up.

~ raticate is still a quite good mon but it rly should be more alongside fearow rather than instead of, or at least the way the meta is rn maybe if kabu usage goes up enough that could change. anyway running fearow + rat can be quite a good option but it does leave u open to some things, fearow as your main zard counterplay is significantly shakier when you have a raticate, as well as compounding weaknesses to moltres, magneton, and seadra. u only have six slots so rat doesnt fit easily on a lot of teams, esp if you are like me and strongly prefer two sleepers.
~ seadra is still a dangerous endgamer but this metagame is not rly kind to it, mime is preserved for late game increasingly often, its magneton matchup is quite bad, and ofc thats on top of its mus vs the polis and occasional other waters; and its not exactly great vs moltres or charizard. nonetheless its always dangerous and it has plenty of advantages over its fellow agility sweeper, particularly the kabutops and charizard mus.

B: again the order here feels kind of arbitrary so i wont focus on that, ill j comment on a few things.
~ porygon is a great moltres partner, switches into zard clicking anything other than fblast, also switches into kabu bslam decently and switches into no-amnesia polis fine bc the low special wrath v rarely 2hkos with one crit. molt supports it in return by switching into paralyzed mr mime's twave or venomoth's stun spore. pory is the preferred bulky 'control' on molt teams imo, with the possible exception of broken magnets ~ pory is well suited to the aggressive playstyle. in certain gamestates u can switch in and out more but dont try to force a pory endgame, be okay with just stopping the charizard once or twice but then take your damage and trade off the pory.
agility isnt an option bc you need twave to check zard and u dont have the moveslots. tbolt twave stab recover
aero has a lot of cool attributes but the combination of the magneton mu + walled by kabutops + needing to click sky to threaten poliwrath + even a bad moltres mu without rest, its rly struggling rn. if im looking for zard control i lean much more toward porygon rn. def wouldnt be surprised by aero finding a stronger place tho and the mime mu is obv far better than porygon's.
stoise is like fine but its so passive, its the only mon that truly lets moth in, id rather live with the shortcomings of poliwrath poliwhirl and/or porygon when they offer sm better upsides, than the jack of all trades mediocrity that is blastoise.
~ rk9 lead is in a weird spot bc mime feels sm more desirable in back rn, i think back rk9 is like a fine option tho, its pretty similar to molt matchup wise but unlike molt fearow is adequate zard protection for it (bslam x2 is a roll for fearow hbeam range, but when u add up all the rng involved zard rly cannot be going to +4 here), give up a lot of power but u get accuracy and 30% broken effect chance, idk i think back arc should be an ok option but its v much unexplored, as is pretty much all of my B and below lol other than blastoise.
~ the grounds and venu fucking suck but mag is broken so i think u have to use at least one of these occasionally, idfk. as mentioned nido lead is a neat option to cover for lead magnetons specifically but its not doing anything for back mags. graveler is pretty good vs no-poliwrath imo but against wrath it can only boom or bslam fish lol, awful situation. venusaur has 3000 problems but against someone like me who tends to prefer the polis over venomoth, maybe it can do something somehow idk lol. pair it with aero probably???? lol
exeggcute should be fine in its usual role but i have not seen it once so theres not much basis to comment. its not exactly a magneton check since it gets 4hkod but certainly prefers mag to trode since magnets doesnt shut down zard sweeps like trode does.
golduck is fine vs certain teams but its not rly appealing vs top-eleven stuff. against someone who uses the mediocre 78 speed water a lot, golduck is def worthy of more consideration.
gastly is a bit without a place rn with fearow displacing rat, the immunity to kabu's body slam is the best thing about this mon but. other than that and the occasional raticate meta is not at all kind to it rn and if im desperate for a kabu bslam switch pory is a much stronger consideration imo.
nidoqueen is included here bc the lower speed doesnt matter much in the lead position so maybe queen could be preferred over king there? idk. lower attack is relevant too tho esp if u want to click body slam vs lead magnetons. if moltres lead were to pick up(?), queen has good chances to live two molt fblasts so that could be relevant, vs zard the xhkos are unchanged tho. in back, the better molt mu is kind of appealing and stoise speed tier is not necessarily a big priority, but being slower than kabutops rly sucks lol.
scyther has cool traits, but obv u arent dropping fearow for it so u need a plan for rocks. idk, another underexplored mon, could show itself to be a lot better than where i have it rn.
idrk when youd use these other mons that i put in C lol but some people like them so i threw them on at the bottom.
 
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Not gonna go too far into explanations, I don't think there's anything too crazy here either.

S: The consensus best 4 mons in the tier.
A: The good water types + mag
B: Other solid mons to expect on an NU team
C: Aero is very very close I think, almost put it in B instead, but these are all decent team options with the proper support.
D/Still Usable: I think you can make these work, but there's probably something better you could be doing with the team slot.

Honorable mentions: I know some folks have ideas about mons like Primeape, Scyther, Kingler, but I just haven't seen enough from them. Whoop somebody in tour with them and we can talk.

Glad to participate in this, looking forward to how the tier evolves over the busy next few months.
 
NU VR 2024

Some thoughts
- Charizard is the best mon in the tier when it's in back plus SD. I don't rate lead mixed set Zard as highly, but it'd still be a solid A or B tier at the least.
- Moltres is extremely overrated in a meta with many prominent fires and waters and inaccuracy issues, and especially when it is paralyzed even agility will not spare it from giving Zard free setup to dance.
- Kabutops & Nidoking have their uses with walling but don't quite have the speed and hit hard enough to be any higher.
- Magneton and Seadra can be extremely dangerous in endgame and there was a time when I considered Seadra top but Magnet and Poliwraths rise have reined him in somewhat.
- Blastoise and Mime are consistently good and staples of the tier. They contribute to a healthy meta more than any other mons in the tier imo
 

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my incoherent thought on the mons
S:
zard and mime are almost interchangable for me both should in my opinion be on 95% of teams or even more mimes very rarly sweeps but it consistently is ok to good in most matches with its twave suport ok bulk stap Psychic and tbolt while zard is less consistent then mimeas most teams have multiple checks for it (still does something most of the time though) its sweep potential is unmatchet for me its also one of the better leads if you dont want to use back zard
A1:
like s the a 1 rank is more fluid with me with every mon having the possibility of switching places with each other
i really love wrath its an bulky water that you can use in the early game which makes it super splashable as it helps vs fire leads early zard revals and oposing waters has some negatives though its very anoyed by double switches and 3 very common mons destroying it after it used up sleep also the speed tie with mag is anoying
fearow is an great fast stab spammer its very hard to play around if one doesnt have an rock and even if one has an rock they are often abusable
moth alone determins the early game of nu with its big bulk and sleep powder basicaly making most waters mid to late game mons its psycic acess is also an good adition to its kit
A2:
mag is a beast even if it will never sweep because of its slow speed its still super scary with the amount of flying and water types in the tier its high special twave and just enough bulk make it go 1v1 or 1v2 most of the time
rats the second best normal type it gives up a bit of speed secondary stab and agility up for the possibility of hiting the rocks ad bslam the speed drop is noticable though which make it less splashable for me
A3:
i hate molt it has an very high theoretical maximum value you can get from it but it often feels for me like you either need to predict you oponent get lucky or have an good matchup for it to do anything really dosnt match my play style also dont like that it can give zard an setup opertunity but its an good mon
seedra is the scariest agility sweeper if the oponent doesnt have an watertype left otherwise it often feels like it gets into an freez war with the oponent
kabuto is the best rock in my opinion it is an fearow molt arc check while not being super pasive and it can also help somwhat vs unbosted zard or absorb an hb from an bosted zard
blastois is the other bulky water of the tier the advantage over over wrath is a bit more speed eq and a small bit more special feel like its an question of prefrence betwen what one prioritises in the tier with stois an wrath both are good mons though even if i dont really use stois
much
B1:
golduck is an cool mon even if it is an role to be killed by zard hb +4 it makes up for it with an good move pool and some added speed amni sub counter seismic hydro blizard are all cool things to have on such an fast not super frail mon
aero is the second best rock but it to often feels to pasive if it doest crits even if it does that quit often but outspeeding the 2 speed tier tiers base 90 and base 100 is still very much apriciated
arc is an intresting mon its an good lead when you dont want to use some of the better mons on the lead slot but other wise its not worth it
ghast is the best rat answer in the tier while also heping somwhat vs the waters and having the possibility of sleeping and explosion is also an good + is an ok mon
B2:
gravler is the best ground it is an magnimite answer that also can check fearow help vs non blizard rat has stab rockslide for the fire flying mons and if all else fails it can still explode only problem is that it really doesnt like the bulky waters
wiggly is an mid tradmachin that almost always trades like 75% of the oponent and also paras them its advantage is that its super consistent at being mid which can be cuit aprciable for a few teams
C:
venu is the second best ground as it also is an sleeper only problem is that its an shit sleeper so its often very bad if its not vs an mag and somtimes even if its vs an mag its mid
scyther is an intresting fusion of fearow and zard that ouspeeds them both i would only use it if i alredy use the other 2
dont like poliwrath feels to inconsistent for me feels like you need to hit your first hypno or its completly fucked because its so frail
porygon is intresting recover and twave are 2 great moves it just felt mid in my testing though maybe i used the wrong teams or just used it wrong though could change my opinion on it in the future
ape is an cool mon but it really misses the 5 speed to speed tie the 100 mons and it also often doesnt do enough if it doesnt hit the oponent super efectivly or with hb
D:
nido is the 2nd worst ground in my opinion its better vs mag then venu but it just feels impossible to fit
dragonair is anoying and bad but it can do somthing with twave agi wrap blizard tbolt hb its move pool is quit good + dragon typing is good
starmie is an very frail water with tbolt and recover its bad but usable
sandslash the worst ground it gives up nidos 1 good point its speed to be better vs mr mime other grounds
egg is an very frail mime answer that also has sleep and explosion but its explosion is super weak also helps a bit vs mag
drowzy is another mime answer which gives up the electric resist and some acuracy on the sleep move for sesmic and some more special
and lastly magmar is an 4th fire with some cool moves counter sesmic bslam psycic smockscreen (fuck confusion)
 
VR time has concluded; check out the new official viability rankings! Cutoff is below B; that is, Aerodactyl is the last Pokemon in NU, and Porygon is the first Pokemon below the cutoff.

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S
01 Mr. Mime
02 Charizard

A+
03 Venomoth
04 Fearow
05 Poliwrath

A
06 Seadra
07 Moltres
08 Magneton
09 Blastoise
10 Raticate
11 Kabutops

B
12 Arcanine
13 Poliwhirl
14 Aerodactyl

C+
15 Porygon
16 Golduck
17 Gastly
18 Graveler
19 Nidoking
20 Venusaur
21 Wigglytuff

C
22 Exeggcute
23 Dragonair

D
24 Kingler
25 Primeape
26 Rapidash
27 Scyther
28 Staryu

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Tiering wise, this has a lot of changes so get ready:
Arcanine, Fearow, and Magneton rise to NU and are therefore banned from PU by default.
Golduck, Nidoking, Venusaur, Wigglytuff, Exeggcute, and Kingler fall to PU.

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to please implement when you have time, thank you!

Thank you to all VR contributors for helping us get the 2025 VR done right as we go into the start of the year; next up will be resource/sample team updates throughout 2025-2026. See you for the next VR at the start of 2027!
 
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In regards to PU after these changes

First and foremost, Amnesia should be banned

Secondly, Magneton should stay because

0) Three water types need a counter balance.
Golduck, Seaking and Kingler.

1) Three ground types check its use.
NidoKing, NidoQueen and Graveler

2) There are no solid electric types in Pu (quite literally the next electric Pokémon is Pikachu/Voltorb
 
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In regards to PU after these “changes”

First and foremost, Amnesia should be banned

Secondly, Magneton should stay because

0) Three water types need a counter balance.
Golduck, Seaking and Kingler.

1) Three ground types check its use.
NidoKing, NidoQueen and Graveler

2) There are no solid electric types in Pu (quite literally the next electric Pokémon is Pikachu/Voltorb

just so u know, the way smogon does tiering is:
~ the higher tier decides (thru whatever method, in this case aggregating vrs from qualified voters w/ the 'vapicuno method') which of the legal pokémon are a part of that tier, and then whatever mons are not in that list, are the initial list of legal pokemon for the tier below
~ the tier below can then choose to ban additional pokemon, or potentially moves (in later gens also abilities etc) but banning pokemon is considered strongly preferred, for its own balancing.
for example, in rby uu hypno lapras and articuno are "uubl", meaning that they were not within OU based on the last ou tiering update; uu had the choice to keep these mons in the tier but chose to ban first hypno and lapras, and then later on also articuno, bc they were felt to not be balanced (by a majority of qualified voters).
whereas pokemon such as jolteon, victreebel, slowbro are OU by tiering and therefore it was never up to uu whether any of those pokémon could be legal.
[the uu+ test tournament is including these mons based on the possibility that some of them could drop in the next OU vr; but that is determined by OU, and even if aftrr the uu+ tour we felt that for example slowbro would be a positive presence for uu, if ou decided that slowbro is ou, then uu would not have that option regardless. just as uu doesnt have the option to legalize any other pokémon tiered ou such as cloyster or exeggutor.

idt it is a perfect system by any means (and in fact i suggested potential reasons for deviating from it in some situations in the "transitivity in rby" thread), but its v much the status quo and u are not going to find much support for anything outside of that, in rby its maybe me and one or two other people who would ever remotely consider it.

in this situation, it is not up to pu whether to keep magneton legal, because magneton is now tiered nu.
other actions to try to improve pu, such as tiering action on golduck, could be on the table. (probably not immediately, but later on after a good number of games have been played in the new tier etc), but legalizing magneton is not an option since magneton is nu.

[i doubt magnets would be worth much in pu anyway, but i havent played or followed pu at all in a long time so im not commenting on the substantive aspects of this im only replying about the tiering system]
 
As I have posted this in other forms it seems appropriate here too.

What you have said was well explained.
I agree it is too early to call anything yet and time will indeed tell.

In short, I believe in the striving for more effectiveness and growth. How we reach that end does depend on the effort and ambitions we put forth (I am speaking about my principles in life).
 
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Have to agree with Teh, if either PT or Moltres go I’ll be happy (preferably the former). I get that variance is present in every rby tier but when you have an asshole bird spamming 70% and 85% accurate moves with 30% status chances things can become swingy really quickly.
one step closer to bird clause being implemented
 
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