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Metagame Fortemons

So we need to talk about the elephant in the room with forte....
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No not you Copperajah it's not your time to shine go back to Tier Shift
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Yes thank you Cyclizar... So as you know there was a certain du-
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Yes this thing....got banned for terrorizing the tier with it's deadly Rapid Spin Forte+Aqua Step/Triple Axel combo it can easily get plus 2/3 speed with just one attack and SD the turn after or before to break through targets such as Alo but we're not here to talk about this we are all thankful this things gone...HOWEVER we are now left with a HUGE issue with no good solution. What do we do about hazard control. Because Iron Treads, Terapagos, Great Tusk, Quaquademon are all banned. Which leaves us with Glimmora and we all know this mfer is NOT filling those shoes not fast enough to be a threat, not bulky enough to come in multiple times. So what else do we have? Oh Donphan the best spinner in the world? No absolutely not this mon is a bootleg tusk at absolute best and primarina food otherwise, same issues as glimm only not as bad at least it has sturdy but too slow for the spin boost to matter and pure ground? Big yikes for an offensive spinner. Who's next Sandslash? No neither Aslash or Kslash are filling the spinner slot whatsoever. Which leaves us with Cyclizar? Nope same issues as before it's got the speed sure but that's the last thing it needs...it doesn't have the power to do what needs to be done and even with regen it's not nearly bulky enough to come in and effortlessly remove hazards I will say uturn and spin in one move is a bonus but immediately thrown out the window because you're throwing out the speed boost to remove hazards once? Only for them to get em right back up? Real cool...so Cyc doesn't work, Donphans not strong enough or fast enough, Glimms not catching any eyes and the rest of the spinners are so bad it's not worth mentioning. So that leaves us with Eleki as a spinner? No this doesn't work long term either because while eleki can hit hard the moment a ground type comes in it's useless and it can't spin on ghost types ESPECIALLY ground ghost types albeit this isn't even what eleki does it spams big hits like giga impact/hyper beam supercell slam etc. You get the point, regardless something needs to be done about the haz removal issue because defog ain't it, don't get me started on that issue cause all the joggers that would normally be good rather do something else. I propose we ban spin as a forte so we can bring back mons like Great Tusk and MAYBE terapagos although don't hold your breathe on that mon, but I'm not done yet I also propose we ban Body Press as a forte so we can also have treads back. This will give us viable spinners back, reduce the MASSIVE mixed attacked pandemic going on AND it would start to balance out the insanity of the meta going on right now.
 
Im still relearning the meta but theres a couple of mons that seem to do okay for hazard control-

:corviknight: Corvi@Body Press seems like an alright defogger- it can still do the exact same idef set with monoattacking air slash since steel only offers a way through clef and nothing otherwise, but if youre looking for haz removal its greedy to expect it to also be the top sweeper in the tier.

:hatterene: Hatterene@Draining Kiss also seems like good prevention of hazards, as long as you once again dont go greedy and expect it to also be an insane sweeper- saving it for the haz matchup it seems to have a pretty good matchup into a lot of setters and able to outlast them.

:excadrill: :tentacruel: With unblockable rapid spin on Exca and Tentacruel it seems like there is actually more hazard removal options here than in OU, not to say that the options are exciting or varied but it seems to be there.. Id list a couple more mons too but I think theyd prob get picked at for being even less exciting than the above 2. If you got rid of them for Great Tusk I think you'd end up with less removal options and also Great Tusk seems to have a harder time against ghost type walls like Sinistcha or Houndstone here, so it might end up harder. I dunno.

Im not saying this because I think the meta is fine or balanced or anything. Its more of a "what more can you even do about hazard removal?".
I kinda think that Fortemons is just a chaotic metagame in which certain styles can't exactly thrive, which is the case for some metagames.. I'm not sure if there is a solution that allows this meta to have removal that resembles other tiers that also keeps up with the insane pacing of the offensive threats in the tier, because a little momentum for the opponent allows them to start clicking with a Primarina or Iron Moth and then your team will explode. Not to mention I don't think rapid spin itself is banworthy at all, and doing a weird ban for the goal of meta-shaping is a bad thing to start doing.

edit: Ive been getting frustrated but also having fun with playing the tier so far, its fun when things go right but also maddening with the number of threats you have to think about. The mons that have been consistently putting in work for me are Hatterene (draining kiss), Cobalion (body press), Iron Valiant (booster lol) and Iron Moth (acid spray). The only mon that I really hate seeing is Bloodmoon, it has basically no switchins to begin with and is already an uber, I dont know if it should be here ngl
 
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I reached #2 this month with this team https://pokepast.es/6dabe53f548f4116
It originally used Ogerpon-Wellspring instead of Alomomola.

:skarmory:
Broken Body Presser.

:lokix:
The goat. Revenge kills/cleans a ton of Pokemon in this tier, such as Darkrai, Latios, Dragapult, Excadrill, etc. Hates the fact that there are barely any viable Spinners.
First Impression + U-Turn to Regieleki or Alomomola.

:slowking-galar:
The best specially defensive wall. Thunder Wave is for speed control, primarily for Lokix. Flamethrower is a secondary check to stop the Steel Body Pressers from completely destroying me. Psychic Noise is to stop Primarina.

:latios:
Generic Charge Beam sweeper. Aura Sphere is mainly for Excadrill and Darkrai if it thinks it can OHKO Latios from full HP with Dark Pulse (it can't). Thunderbolt is for the metal birds.

:alomomola:
Best non-Body Pressing physical wall in the metagame. Rocky Helmet and Alluring Voice are to ensure that it can actually deal damage to Dragapult and pesky Body Pressers.
Flip Turn to Regieleki or Lokix.

:regieleki:
Completely busted because of Volt Switch and the only viable Spinner besides Excadrill.
Giga Impact/Thunderbolt/Extreme Speed/Rapid Spin to Lokix or Alomomola.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2489432447?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2490495789?p2

At least 5 broken Ubers (Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Baxcalibur, Dialga-O, Regieleki, Giratina-O)
4 banned Spinners (Tusk, Treads, Terapagos, Quaq)
3 IronPressers (Skarmory, Diancie, Cobalion)
2 uncompetitive Fortes (Rollout, Ancient Power)
And 1 metagame.
 
Tbh, i do wonder- and this is mainly just a curiosity thing - but are the fortes here that are 'restricted' due to balance or due to the coding not allowing it?? And if its the first thing- then: i think a 'unrestricted' custom game/challenge only format for that kind of thing could be a fun thing then. Mainly to mess around or just see what type of insane stuff would happen to that kind of meta?
 
LedianBestie said:
Tbh, i do wonder- and this is mainly just a curiosity thing - but are the fortes here that are 'restricted' due to balance or due to the coding not allowing it?? And if its the first thing- then: i think a 'unrestricted' custom game/challenge only format for that kind of thing could be a fun thing then. Mainly to mess around or just see what type of insane stuff would happen to that kind of meta?
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There are occasionally Fortemons AG games in Showdown's OM Mashups room (hint: Flame Charge Forte Skeledirge is not completely surprisingly good, put the last 8 EVs in Speed to outspeed Arceus at +2) with nearly no Forte restrictions.

The only moves restricted from the Forte slot due to coding reasons are multi-hit moves and Future Sight and clones - the rest are due to balance reasons. (Self-KO Fortes were being combined with Endeavor.)
 
Lectrys said:
There are occasionally Fortemons AG games in Showdown's OM Mashups room (hint: Flame Charge Forte Skeledirge is not completely surprisingly good, put the last 8 EVs in Speed to outspeed Arceus at +2) with nearly no Forte restrictions.

The only moves restricted from the Forte slot due to coding reasons are multi-hit moves and Future Sight and clones - the rest are due to balance reasons. (Self-KO Fortes were being combined with Endeavor.)
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Is there a code to there Fortemons AG games? Im pretty sure their ran in a custom game right?
 
LedianBestie said:
Is there a code to there Fortemons AG games? Im pretty sure their ran in a custom game right?
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The code would be
/challenge gen9fortemons @@@ !sleepmovesclause,!standardoms,!terastalclause,standardag,+all pokemon,+all abilities,+all moves,+all items,+Arm Thrust,+Bone Rush,+Bullet Seed,+Beat Up,+Double Hit,+Double Kick,+Dragon Darts,+Dual Wingbeat,+Fury Attack,+Fury Swipes,+Icicle Spear,+Pin Missile,+Population Bomb,+Rock Blast,+Scale Shot,+Surging Strikes,+Tail Slap,+Triple Axel,+Triple Dive,+Twin Beam,+Water Shuriken,+Grassy Glide,+Vacuum Wave,+Accelerock,+Aqua Jet,+Bullet Punch,+Extreme Speed,+Fake Out,+Feint,+Ice Shard,+First Impression,+Jet Punch,+Mach Punch,+Quick Attack,+Shadow Sneak,+Sucker Punch,+Upper Hand,+Night Shade,+Seismic Toss,+Ruination,+Super Fang,+Endeavor,+Air Slash,+Astonish,+Bite,+Dark Pulse,+Dragon Rush,+Extrasensory,+Fiery Wrath,+Fire Fang,+Headbutt,+Ice Fang,+Icicle Crash,+Iron Head,+Rock Slide,+Snore,+Stomp,+Thunder Fang,+Twister,+Waterfall,+Zen Headbutt,+Zing Zap,+Blizzard,+Freeze-Dry,+Freezing Glare,+Ice Beam,+Ice Punch,+Powder Snow,+Tri Attack,+Dynamic Punch,+Electro Ball,+Explosion,+Gyro Ball,+Final Gambit,+Flail,+Flip Turn,+Fury Cutter,+Grass Knot,+Hard Press,+Heavy Slam,+Heat Crash,+Inferno,+Low Kick,+Misty Explosion,+Nuzzle,+Power Trip,+Reversal,+Self-Destruct,+Spit Up,+Stored Power,+Tera Blast,+U-turn,+Weather Ball,+Zap Cannon,+Bounce,+Dig,+Dive,+Electro Shot,+Fly,+Freeze Shock,+Ice Burn,+Meteor Beam,+Phantom Force,+Shadow Force,+Sky Attack,+Solar Beam,+Solar Blade+Baton Pass,+Shed Tail

Note that the charging moves and multihit moves do not work at all as Fortes.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
The code would be
/challenge gen9fortemons @@@ !sleepmovesclause,!standardoms,!terastalclause,standardag,+all pokemon,+all abilities,+all moves,+all items,+Arm Thrust,+Bone Rush,+Bullet Seed,+Beat Up,+Double Hit,+Double Kick,+Dragon Darts,+Dual Wingbeat,+Fury Attack,+Fury Swipes,+Icicle Spear,+Pin Missile,+Population Bomb,+Rock Blast,+Scale Shot,+Surging Strikes,+Tail Slap,+Triple Axel,+Triple Dive,+Twin Beam,+Water Shuriken,+Grassy Glide,+Vacuum Wave,+Accelerock,+Aqua Jet,+Bullet Punch,+Extreme Speed,+Fake Out,+Feint,+Ice Shard,+First Impression,+Jet Punch,+Mach Punch,+Quick Attack,+Shadow Sneak,+Sucker Punch,+Upper Hand,+Night Shade,+Seismic Toss,+Ruination,+Super Fang,+Endeavor,+Air Slash,+Astonish,+Bite,+Dark Pulse,+Dragon Rush,+Extrasensory,+Fiery Wrath,+Fire Fang,+Headbutt,+Ice Fang,+Icicle Crash,+Iron Head,+Rock Slide,+Snore,+Stomp,+Thunder Fang,+Twister,+Waterfall,+Zen Headbutt,+Zing Zap,+Blizzard,+Freeze-Dry,+Freezing Glare,+Ice Beam,+Ice Punch,+Powder Snow,+Tri Attack,+Dynamic Punch,+Electro Ball,+Explosion,+Gyro Ball,+Final Gambit,+Flail,+Flip Turn,+Fury Cutter,+Grass Knot,+Hard Press,+Heavy Slam,+Heat Crash,+Inferno,+Low Kick,+Misty Explosion,+Nuzzle,+Power Trip,+Reversal,+Self-Destruct,+Spit Up,+Stored Power,+Tera Blast,+U-turn,+Weather Ball,+Zap Cannon,+Bounce,+Dig,+Dive,+Electro Shot,+Fly,+Freeze Shock,+Ice Burn,+Meteor Beam,+Phantom Force,+Shadow Force,+Sky Attack,+Solar Beam,+Solar Blade+Baton Pass,+Shed Tail

Note that the charging moves and multihit moves do not work at all as Fortes.
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imagine if there was a fortemon sub-om thing where all fortes are allowed but ubers mons are banned
 
gaddamn, the concept of everyone potentially packing acid spray, sand tomb, volt switch, ceaseless edge, salt cure, body press, psychic noise. you better pack your HO screens teams lol cus aint no defense allowed
 
KaenSoul said:

What if your attacks could gain additional effects based on what attack is held in the item slot? Instead of holding an item, you can instead hold an attack, giving all of the attacks in your move-slots the primary and secondary effects of that held move.

Rules:

Mechanic:
An attack put into the item slot will grant its primary and secondary effects to all of the attacks in the move-slots. The regular attack maintains its base power, accuracy, typing, physical or special, and original primary and secondary effects. Status moves cannot be put into the Item-slot, nor will they grant any additional effects in Fortemons. The mechanic will only work with attacks.

For example: Holding Fire Punch grants the properties of being a punching move, makes contact, and has a 10% to burn. Sludge Bomb would be a 90BP Special Attack with a 30% to poison, categorized as a bullet move, and boosted by Sheer Force, as well as the aforementioned effects gained through Fire Punch.

Resources: VR and Move-list in progress

Playability: This format is challengeable

Council:
:dewott: KaenSoul
:ceruledge: Dark Koopatrol

FAQs & Clauses:
How does Swift work? Does it grant 100% accuracy to all attacks?
-Itemized moves do not pass their accuracy on to move-slot moves.

How does Knock Off work?
-Itemized moves cant be knocked off or removed in any way such as Trick or Fling. Knock Off would remain 65BP.

How does move legality work?
-Pokemon can only use moves they have access to in the Item-slot.

Can I itemize a move and also use it as a moveslot?
-No, one or the other.

How do itemized effects stack with move effects?
-It is two separate rolls. If you would roll for a 30% Thunder paralysis and then roll for a 10% Thunderbolt paralysis for a 37% total chance, rather than adding 30+10 and having a 40% chance overall. When it comes to healing, you'll heal once for 50% (assuming Giga Drain) and then once again for 50% (assuming another move like Mega Drain)- so in this particular case, you'll be effectively healing additively for 100% of the damage dealt.

Which order do the primary/secondary effects occur?
- temized effects happen after effects from moves in the move slot. Primary effects will occur before secondary effects for both.

What happens if I stack secondary effects like contact moves in the Item-slot and Move-slot with abilities like Tough Claws or Sheer Force?
-Abilities are only applied once in Fortemons. For example, even if there's a contact move in both the item and the move slot, Tough Claws applies once. The same concept applies to abilities like Triage and Sheer Force.

What would happen if I had Tera Blast in the Item-slot and Terastallized?
-Your move-slot attacks would change to either Special or Physical, as well as their typing accordingly similar to Tera Blast in this scenario.

Does Rage Fist and Last Respects pass its BP boosting?
-Both moves would pass their conditional BP boosts.

Does holding Body Press mean Special Attacks use the Defense stat for damage calculation?
-Yes.

What happens if I put Low Kick of Electro Ball in the Item slot?
- Whatever BP those moves would be, the rest of your attacks would mirror that BP. If your opponent had Steelix out for example, Low Kick would be 120 BP, meaning all of your attacks would become 120 BP. This also applies even if you have something like Hyper Beam, which is 150 BP, since the effect being transferred is the conditional damage based on Speed or weight.

Will High-Crit Ratio stack if I put it in the Item slot?
-Yes, it will be similar to holding a Scope Lens along with all the added flags that attack may have like Slicing.

What happens if I have Weather Ball in the Item slot?
-All of your attacks will change types depending on the Weather currently in play, as well as gain the double damage property if Weather is up.

Is Sheer Force bugged?
-As of right now, we're led to believe that it's working fine when it removes the stat dropping secondary effects from moves like CC, or the recharge effect from moves like Giga Impact. Though we are not entirely sure why Recoil is not removed while those are. We do believe that Sheer Force is working as of right now, and it may be due to the interaction of how Sheer Force removes secondary effects for increased damage now being applied to all moves (even with one possessing secondary effects not applicable to Sheer Force). Recoil seems to be the odd one out in this situation.

How does Rollout work?
-Your first attack will be the move you picked, and then next turn it will lock you into Rollout with the stacks added. If you used a multi-hit, then next turn you will get Rollout with 3 stacks applied.

How does Future Sight work?
-Attacks don't come out 2 turns later with Future Sight in the item slot, but Future Sight in the item slot seems to let you bypass immunity. Based on the coding, this may be intentional.

How does Magic Room work?
-Magic Room will work on regular items but not fortes.

Why isn't Hydro Steam working?
Hydro Steam doesn't have an effect to pass. Instead Sunny Day interacts with it and boosts it as a weather effect. This is not applied to Psyblade and Electric Terrain though.
Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Standard OMs
Sleep Moves Mod
Min Source Gen=9

Ban History:
1/17/2023: Houndstone banned and Flinch moves restricted from Item slot.
1/21/2023: Fury Cutter and Flame Charge are restricted from Item slot. Multi-hit moves are unrestricted from Item slot.
1/25/2023: Baton Pass is banned.
1/27/2023: Cloyster is banned.
1/31/2023: Low Kick and Grass Knot are restricted from Item slot.
2/11/2023: Riolu and Serene Grace are banned. Spit Up is restricted from Item slot.
2/27/2023: Moody is banned and Flame Charge is unrestricted from Item slot.
3/1/2023: Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are banned.
3/3/2023: Chien Pao, Espathra, Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, and Weavile are banned. Rapid Spin is unrestricted from the Item slot.
3/8/2023: Great Tusk is banned. Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Reversal are restricted from the Item slot.
3/14/2023: Dragonite, Azumarill, Annihilape, and Beat Up are Banned. Freeze, Flail, and Heavy Slam are restricted. Weavile is unbanned.
3/20/2023: Heat Rock and Damp Rock are banned.
7/2/203: Single Item Clause is implemented.
8/7/2023: U-Turn is unrestricted.
9/14/2023: Dialga-O, Giratina-O, Azumarill are unbanned. Grassy Glide and Heat Crash are restricted. Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai are banned.
9/24/2023: Skeleirge is banned.
12/16/2023: Legendaries ban post DLC release.
12/28/2023: Dragonite and Darkrai are unbanned. Tera banned.
1/1/2024: Smeargle is banned.
1/1/2024: Fake Out is banned.
1/2/2024: Tera Blast is restricted.
1/4/2024: Comfey, Urshifu-Rapid Strike, Meowscarada, and Shed Tail are banned. Weather Ball is restricted.
1/4/2024: Sleep Move Clause is implemented.
1/5/2024: Archuladon is banned.

Banlist & Restrictions:
Abilities:
  • :jirachi: Serene Grace
  • :dugtrio: Arena Trap
  • :gothitelle: Shadow Tag
  • :scovillain: Moody
Items:
  • :damp-rock: Damp Rock
  • :heat-rock: Heat Rock
  • :light clay: Light Clay
Pokemon:
  • :annihilape: Annihilape
  • :arceus: Arceus
  • :archaludon: Archaludon
  • :azumarill: Azumarill
  • :calyrex-ice: Calyrex-Ice
  • :calyrex-shadow: Calyrex-Shadow
  • :chi-yu: Chi-Yu
  • :chien-pao: Chien-Pao
  • :cloyster: Cloyster
  • :comfey: Comfey
  • :deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack
  • :deoxys: Deoxys-Neutral
  • :dialga: Dialga
  • :espathra: Espathra
  • :eternatus: Eternatus
  • :flutter mane: Flutter Mane
  • :giratina: Giratina
  • :great tusk: Great Tusk
  • :groudon: Groudon
  • :ho-oh: Ho-Oh
  • :iron bundle: Iron Bundle
  • :Iron Treads: Iron Treads
  • :koraidon: Koraidon
  • :kyogre: Kyogre
  • :kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
  • :kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
  • :lugia: Lugia
  • :lunala: Lunala
  • :magearna: Magearna
  • :meowscarada: Meowscarada
  • :mewtwo: Mewtwo
  • :miraidon: Miraidon
  • :necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
  • :necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
  • :palafin: Palafin
  • :palkia: Palkia
  • :palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin
  • :rayquaza: Rayquaza
  • :reshiram: Reshiram
  • :samurott-Hisui: Samurott-Hisui
  • :shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
  • :skeledirge: Skeledirge
  • :Smeargle: Smeargle
  • :sneasler: Sneasler
  • :solgaleo: Solgaleo
  • :spectrier: Spectrier
  • :terapagos: Terapagos
  • :urshifu: Urshifu Single Strike
  • :Urshifu: Urshifu Rapid Strike
  • :zacian: Zacian
  • :zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned
  • :zamazenta: Zamazenta
  • :zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned
  • :zekrom: Zekrom
Moves:
  • Arm Thrust, Bone Rush, Bullet Seed, Beat Up, Double Hit, Double Kick, Dragon Darts, Dual Wingbeat, Fury Attack, Fury Swipes, Icicle Spear, Pin Missile, Population Bomb, Rock Blast, Scale Shot, Surging Strikes, Tail Slap, Triple Axel, Triple Dive, Twin Beam, Water Shuriken
  • Grassy Glide, Vacuum Wave, Water Shuriken, Accelerock, Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Fake Out, Feint, Ice Shard, First Impression, Jet Punch, Mach Punch, Quick Attack, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Upper Hand
  • Night Shade, Seismic Toss, Ruination, Super Fang, Endeavor
  • Inferno, Zap Cannon, Dynamic Punch, Nuzzle
  • Air Slash, Astonish, Bite, Dark Pulse, Dragon Rush, Extrasensory, Fake Out, Fiery Wrath, Fire Fang, Headbutt, Ice Fang, Icicle Crash, Iron Head, Rock Slide, Snore, Stomp, Thunder Fang, Twister, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt, Zing Zap
  • Blizzard, Freeze-Dry, Freezing Glare, Ice Beam, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Powder Snow, Tri Attack
  • Final Gambit, Explosion, Self-Destruct, Misty Explosion
  • Low Kick/Grass Knot/Heat Crash/Heavy Slam/Hard Press/Electro Ball/Gyro Ball (Restricted)
  • Fury Cutter (Restricted)
  • Stored Power (Restricted)
  • Power Trip (Restricted)
  • Mud Slap (Restricted)
  • Flip Turn (Restricted)
  • U-Turn (Restricted)
  • Flail (Restricted)
  • Future Sight (Restricted/Bugged)
  • Doom Desire (Restricted/Bugged)
  • Reversal (Restricted)
  • Weather Ball (Restricted)
  • Beat Up
  • Baton Pass
  • Shed Tail
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How dose flying press work?
 
Im willing to do some big shake ups if there is support for it, as this could be the final ladder season of this generation (or not, a lot can happen in a year or whenever gen 10 decides to arrive), we could try to restrict spin and unban the users, restric volt switch, ban bax, or whatever people want to complain-discuss.
I do need some people for the council first, tho, and as I'm getting "less young" I want to pass this tier to someone else down the line, I won't be part of it next generation thats for sure. Just contact me if you want to join the council.
Happy ladder, enjoy fornitemons.
 
This meta is absolutely disgusting.

The only 2 flexible hazard removers are now Regieleki and Excadrill. Although I believe Regieleki is incredibly broken, it is a very mediocre spinner, as its main brokenness comes from its ability to easily gain tempo against the opponent, and it gets chipped every time it comes in to clear hazards. Excadrill isn't much better, being entirely walled by Skarmory and having absolutely trash defenses.

What does this mean? This means that teams that use hazards are better than ever. Since literally nobody uses Heavy Duty Boots since that goes against the core mechanic of the metagame, Sticky Web and Stealth Rock become insanely oppressive, applying their effects to essentially every Pokemon that hits the field.

On top of the increased oppressiveness of hazards, you still have to deal with horrifying Body Press sweepers and extremely annoying Draining Kiss users. Skarmory, Cobalion, Diancie, Kommo-o, Regirock, etc cannot be walled whatsoever, so you literally just have to sacrifice at least 1 Pokemon to switch into a Body Pressed move and just die. Primarina, Enamorus-Therian, and other Draining Kissers simply eliminate any progress your defensive Pokemon make against them by healing off of their moves. Since almost no Pokemon uses Choice Band or Choice Specs, these Pokemon have much easier opportunities to set up instead of getting OHKOed by neutral moves. You can argue that you should just use Slowking-Galar as your special wall, but what happens when the opponent decides to use special Hex Dragapult or Charge Beam Darkrai? You get completely and utterly choked.

In fact, I don't think there's any special wall that can reliably stop Hex Dragapult and Charge Beam Darkrai besides Blissey.

If Body Press is restricted, at least we can get Iron Treads back and we will have less ridiculous unwallable crap.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2674748636-038w7ysbyyhpmgl28agiyljexih543epw (Yes I horribly misplayed. That doesn't change the fact that 1. I had basically no way to stop the Court Change because Galvantula could easily threaten Thunder on Alomomola or Bug Buzz on Lokix and Regieleki without Volt Switch is a massive joke and 2. Milotic completely decimates my team with Draining Kiss and Kingambit would've cleaned it up)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2674756926 (more invested HP Primarina and I would've died)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2674728247?p2 (tell me what the hell am I meant to do against Diancie after Goodra-Hisui dies or I'm forced to sacrifice something to Slowking-Galar)
 
I think I agree with you that Eleki is not a great spinner, so it seems pretty expected that youve been getting destroyed by hazards. Maybe you could try teams with stuff like Corv, Hatt, Giratina-O or Tentacruel as hazard response? I've preferred those mons to Exca/Eleki who I think are totally overrated as removal.

I might not agree that they are that bad but hey, if hazards are such a problem to many people and the removal is not considered enough, then instead of doing complex bans and nonsense side-bans to free rapid spinners why dont you just ban the hazards?
 
Volt switch :regieleki: is a little silly and uncompetitive in my opinion. I also think body press :torkoal: is absurd and shouldnt be allowed as a forte and I have no idea why people are okay with it running around

There are a few good bpress abusers but the one that annoys me the most is diancie :diancie: since I have to gamble on if its dkiss or body press and if I am getting walled or swept. However diancie is not the only one (:cobalion::kommo-o::skarmory::regirock:) that can utilize bpress to be annoying.

Regarding rapid spin, I do think banning spin and freeing the spinners would be a nice, although I do not have the strongest opinions on it either way
 
Oh since we are also listing mons and stuff we find broken,
I agree that :regieleki: is busted, I spam the hell out of that mon and it runs over everything and it can quite reasonably do the exact same volt switch nonsense with both Tbolt/Hyper Beam AND max atk Supercell/Giga Impact/Espeed, both are insane, just saying this because I think its evil extends past what most people usually see.

Body Press I think I can come around to agreeing with that its broken. It ramps up so fast and eliminates a lot of counterplay.

:primarina: I dont know if its draining moves in general, or maybe even just Draining Kiss, but Primarina in particular is really foul to work around in the builder. Feels very constricting.

Personally dont like all the random ubers in the tier. The tiers hard and varied enough, and it didnt need to have a bunch of clutter like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon which is a monster to deal with dropped in too for lack of variety. I dont think they are all broken but its extra strain and I dont think they add anything. I would love to say goodbye to all the uber drops that at least arent forced to hold an item (Bax, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon, Ursa-Bloodmoon, Volcarona)

Also, still dont feel great about banning spin personally, would rather target the evil mons in the tier first. Reliable spin into ghosts on some mons feels actually nice
 
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Reviving the thread with some announcements, Inkydarkbird, Delibird heart and duckycrater are now part of the council, and with them we did a pretty big voting, so lets check out the results:

forte slate.png


Dialga-Origin, Ursaluna-BM, Riolu and Cobalion have been banned, and Volt Switch restricted!

:dialga-origin: We will be banning this ball of stats as is becoming relevant and we prefer to keep the focus on stuff that make use of the forte gimmick. Is difficult to take down without losing something in the process thanks to massive bulk and SpA paired with high power moves like Draco Meteor.

:Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: Bloodmoon is basically the same monster as in any other tier, with added options thanks to stuff like Trailblaze forte to snowball out of control or Payback to catch surprise kills.

:riolu: This is only ever used for cheese.

:cobalion: We voted this after the initial votes as is a result of Body Press staying this time around. Is similar to Iron Treads from a few ladder seasons ago, crazy coverage with just stabs, Iron Defense to boost its stats and can Volt Switch out of anything annoying.

:pikachu: We will finally restrict Volt Switch, for the same reasons as Uturn and Flip Turn, it stayed to try to keep the effect legal with as many restrictions as possible but it wasnt enough and at this point it makes more sense to hit it than an abuser like Regieleki.
 
Changes are live now, we do not control server updates so we had to live without them for a bit longer than what we would have wanted.
 
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This OMOTM, I decided to ladder with 2 accounts. One of them is my main account, which has my GOAT Lokix that I haven't really modified much. All the sets are pretty self-explanatory and its a generic balance team with some regular speed control (Lokix and Dragapult), two walls (Alomomola and Goodra-Hisui), a special sweeper (Latios), and a hazard remover (Giratina-O, yes it's also a wall but it can't pivot so I don't really use it to wall unless I'm desperate)
https://pokepast.es/dae68995d7b999fb

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The other account is my InkyDarkPenguin account, which I've decided to become a STALLER again. That's right, with 5 Rapid Spinners now being shot into the ground
STALL IS NOW VIABLE!!!!
Or maybe it's bulky offense? It sure plays a lot like stall, though.
:gholdengo: :alomomola: :ting-lu: :clodsire: :landorus-therian: :goodra-hisui:

:gholdengo:
You love him. You hate him. It's the annoying Ghost bozo to block Defogs. Hex allows it to fully destroy Pokemon that are poisoned by Clodsire's Toxic Spikes and Thunder Wave basically guarantees a KO on greedy setup sweepers. The 60 speed EVs are to fully outspeed Diancie.

:alomomola:
Literally just a regular Alomomola. The only reason it has Alluring Voice instead of Scald is because of broken Baxcalibur. I don't even know if it needs Scald.

:ting-lu:
The classic OU Ting-Lu set, except it now has Throat Chop instead of Ruination and Payback as a Forte. Payback is insanely powerful, allowing it to easily OHKO key threats such as Lati@s, Farigiraf, and even a chipped Darkrai or Iron Valiant.
+2 0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 255-301 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 255-301 (88.2 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

:clodsire:
Literally just Clodsire. Has Earthquake, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Recover. I don't think many people expect Clodsire at all because it struggles heavily into Latios and Slowking-Galar is often better for its pivoting. However, Clodsire does have a singular niche as being one of the few counters to Diancie that isn't complete trash (cough cough Bronzong). Diamond Storm and Earth Power both only 3HKO Clodsire, which can be healed back using Black Sludge and Recover, and Clodsire can easily Toxic Diancie. Furthermore, using Psyshock is absolutely horrendous on Diancie since it is just a complete MU fish just for Clodsire when Moonblast + Earth Power cover almost every other Poison Pokemon.

:landorus-therian:
Bulky Landorus-T. I made it 1 point faster than Excadrill so I can laugh in its fraudulent face while I U-Turn or Earthquake or whatever. It has Taunt to stop opposing hazards.

:goodra-hisui:
Goodra-Hisui is definitely an underexplored Pokemon. With Heavy Slam, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, and Flamethrower using Mud Shot as its Forte. It can hit the majority of Pokemon in the metagame for strong neutral damage and sometimes even 1v1 them. I don't use Absorb Forte because then Primarina would completely destroy it using Psychic Noise.

Why did this team work?
There are two main reasons I believe this team works:
1. People love engaging with the Fortemons gimmick
If you look at my team, you'll notice that half of my Pokemon are holding regular items. Most players usually have almost, if not all of their Pokemon hold a Forte because its more "fun"

2. Trash hazard removal
STOP USING EXCADRILL
Excadrill is a complete FRAUD. With Regieleki rendered useless with the Volt Switch restriction, players are now resorting to this Alomomola-victim shitmon as their designated Rapid Spinner. Except the problem is that it has horrendous bulk, gets destroyed by Rocky Helmet and other contact abilities, and can't even sweep before allowing the metal birds in first and letting them Iron Defense all over you. People need to WAKE UP and realize that Excadrill cannot and never will replace Iron Treads, no matter how much it tries to mimic the red pixels on Treads's trunk or its obsidian tusks with its paltry pyrite pincers. It will never be a Great Tusk using its supreme bulk to overpower physical walls and opposing attackers, for its thin and frail body shivers like a squeaky shrew at the sight of a simple Tauros.
It will never be the Extra-drill you are looking for in your life.

0 Atk Alomomola Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 152-182 (42.1 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2688719225?p2 (I sacrifice Landorus-T to kill Excadrill)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2688486899 (too impatient with getting hazards off, Excadrill destroyed by Clodsire + Helmet)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2688947106 (more impatience)

Instead, you should be using GIRATINA-ORIGIN, TENTACRUEL, OR GLIMMORA. Those are way better and actually do something instead of drowning in Luvdisc-clone's fin slaps.
 
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