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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 2 (Primary Typing Poll 2)
- Thread starter Sunday
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*feels shunned for his awesome post too*
What. Are you thinking a community of a good 50-100 people and more than 10 good artists (Well, no idea of the exact number, I was a bit away from around here during the last CaP) cannot come up with something as simple as a type combination without messing it up? Nickel-Cadmium batteries are known to be highly poisonous. I don't care about what you think when you think of batteries, many people think "gives off electricity" and "poisonous". And "essence of the batteries"?
There are several other ideas floating around already, and we haven't even decided on a primary typing yet.
My vote goes to Electric, but I am not against Electric/Poison. Electric/Poison could be a fun thing to design, as much as people like hating on it. It's not like we have to tack Levitate on it, there are other ways to remedy the Ground weakness.
I vote Poison, poison has a strong utility movepool for that. The absorption of Toxic Spikes alone should be enough to push it more (because you can retaliate with spikes). Poisons have useful resistances, we should also consider the fact that a good number of support pokemon are grass types.
There are actually some nice utility poison types, but i'd like to see one with more durability, and their usages aren't specifically focused on being a great support.
I think if you made Crobat, or Drapion bulkier and more durable and a corresponding movepool, think about it! You'd get a GREAT utility Pokemon.
I actually kinda like this idea of poison/electric going around too.
There are actually some nice utility poison types, but i'd like to see one with more durability, and their usages aren't specifically focused on being a great support.
Actually Crobat (with his wonderful typing) and Drapion (with his slight utilitarian bulkiness) don't suck, they could probably be improved a bit but definitely don't suck IMHO.
I think if you made Crobat, or Drapion bulkier and more durable and a corresponding movepool, think about it! You'd get a GREAT utility Pokemon.
I actually kinda like this idea of poison/electric going around too.
First of all, I like seeing the tide change, even though it is to the side I didn't vote for. It shows that people actually care enough to pull a reversal instead of jumping on the bandwagon (or maybe they are jumping on an underdogwagon(?)). It'll be fun thinking of a design for either one of these primary types.
I also tip my hat to Aldaron, since he put up a damn good list of some damn good reasoning. If one side wins, I'll 99% end up voting for the other. Thats how close this thing is coming in my mind. Close like a fox.
I also tip my hat to Aldaron, since he put up a damn good list of some damn good reasoning. If one side wins, I'll 99% end up voting for the other. Thats how close this thing is coming in my mind. Close like a fox.
Reasons for going with Poison over Electric:
1: Resistances do matter. Unlike Bass' assertion, I do not believe a common weakness nulls the resistances a pokemon possesses. Absorption of Toxic Spikes is an innate advantage for poison types, meaning you don't have to waste your ability dealing with a problem that could have been fixed by a better typing. Fighting is everywhere, even moreso with Revenankh around every corner. Fighting, Ghost, Bug, Grass, and Poison resistances are great to have. As a matter of fact, this resists one of the primary STABs of each of our las 3t CaP pokemon.
2. Poison has a better breeding pool. Ground Breeding group is a cop-out on the creative process because of Smeargle. If you want to have legit breeding moves on your pokemon, the Indeterminate group is full of awesome pokemon including Muk, Weezing, and Gengar. Poison may be a "retread" on old ground (as if killer Mixed sweeper and Bulky Stat-upper aren't), but Poison remains the type with the most innate utility. I have a hard time buying the argument that novelty for its own sake is good. Electric has one predictable weakness but it also has few great resistances. Electric, Flying, and Steel don't generally inspire terror in me, whereas everybody and their brother SPAMs Close Combat or Hammer Arm.
3. "Resistance to Fighting" has only been one reason among many people put their support behind Poison typing. Gengar, Tentacruel, and Roserade may be decent, but only Tentacruel really uses any utility moves, and it lacks the means to be an offensive threat to anything that isn't weak to water.
I'm happy with either one, Electric was my second choice anyway, but I'm not going to idly pass by while people dump on the "originality" of a poison utility, as if we couldn't improve everything that makes certain pokemon fall short. Nevermind that neither primary type does much to Tyranitar, the favorite Trick Room douser of them all, but at least Poisons have a history of wide movepools.
1: Resistances do matter. Unlike Bass' assertion, I do not believe a common weakness nulls the resistances a pokemon possesses. Absorption of Toxic Spikes is an innate advantage for poison types, meaning you don't have to waste your ability dealing with a problem that could have been fixed by a better typing. Fighting is everywhere, even moreso with Revenankh around every corner. Fighting, Ghost, Bug, Grass, and Poison resistances are great to have. As a matter of fact, this resists one of the primary STABs of each of our las 3t CaP pokemon.
2. Poison has a better breeding pool. Ground Breeding group is a cop-out on the creative process because of Smeargle. If you want to have legit breeding moves on your pokemon, the Indeterminate group is full of awesome pokemon including Muk, Weezing, and Gengar. Poison may be a "retread" on old ground (as if killer Mixed sweeper and Bulky Stat-upper aren't), but Poison remains the type with the most innate utility. I have a hard time buying the argument that novelty for its own sake is good. Electric has one predictable weakness but it also has few great resistances. Electric, Flying, and Steel don't generally inspire terror in me, whereas everybody and their brother SPAMs Close Combat or Hammer Arm.
3. "Resistance to Fighting" has only been one reason among many people put their support behind Poison typing. Gengar, Tentacruel, and Roserade may be decent, but only Tentacruel really uses any utility moves, and it lacks the means to be an offensive threat to anything that isn't weak to water.
I'm happy with either one, Electric was my second choice anyway, but I'm not going to idly pass by while people dump on the "originality" of a poison utility, as if we couldn't improve everything that makes certain pokemon fall short. Nevermind that neither primary type does much to Tyranitar, the favorite Trick Room douser of them all, but at least Poisons have a history of wide movepools.
No, I'm saying that there's a reason Game Freak doesn't do type combinations like Water/Fire, Ice/Electric, Ghost/Normal, et cetera: They don't make very much sense.
This is something that I really have a problem with. If it remains in our heads that every Pokemon we make on this forum has to have a type that no other Pokemon has, all it's going to do is separate the Pokemon we make here even farther from the real thing. There's a reason for Electric, and a reason for Poison, so by no means am I insinuating that the process is random, but at the end of the day, all typing is is picking two numbers from 1 to 17 and putting them together. Something as arbitrary as choosing 1 out of 289 predefined possibilities cannot be legitimately defined as creative or original, when really, the types are already there. The creative part comes later.
That's my point, really. Don't feel obligated to make this Pokemon have an off-the-wall typing. All that really does is make it more gimmicky, not genuinely better or more special. If you look at a type combination and feel in your heart of hearts that it's weird and would probably never be made into a real Pokemon, then how is that a good thing?
There are a lot of type combinations that GameFreak hasn't touched on. They've been making Pokemon for a while, and they're better at it then we are. The reason they haven't made a Water / Fire and almost certainly never will isn't because they're lazy or uncreative, or because they're pulling their punches. It's because they knew those two types wouldn't mesh together very well.
Anybody can be presented with Water / Fire and come up with a steam cloud, or Ghost / Grass and come up with a spectral flower, or, for that matter, Electric / Poison and come up with a battery. There are plenty of options, but coming up with a typing from a purely mechanical point of view and then wracking your brains to come up with a flavorful solution that isn't completely ridiculous isn't really an accomplishment in and of itself. All that's really doing is putting the mechanics first, 100%, and making the flavor work for you, instead of working with the flavor, like Game Freak does.
Consider this quote:
This is just another example of how you always have to keep in mind that there's another half to a Pokemon on the other side of its mechanics: its flavor. There's not one, and then the other; they're both part of a whole, and you can't just do one first and then build the other around it. You have to keep them both in mind at the same time. Are batteries poisonous? Yes, they are. But is coming up with a type combination of Electric / Poison and then using that fact to justify an off-the-wall typing the right thing to do to make the best Pokemon we can make? Absolutely not.
The art in the [thread=39436]Pyroak art submission thread[/thread] is awe-inspiring and genius. I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying that an off-the-wall typing like Electric / Poison, if anything, would diminish from the quality of the final product, and certainly not increase it. We want these Pokemon to be just as good as the real thing; that's why we take every step we can to work out the intricacies of the Egg Moves and perfect the quality of the sprites. So why would we ever want to be different, just for the sake of being different? For all the reasons I've stated above, an Electric / Poison type, or any other type that must be justified with a stretched or ambiguous flavor, should not even be considered.
I will make Normal/Ghost my point, as there is a Pokemon I had in mind for about 3 years for that particular typing, and I am still expecting it to show up in a following generation because of how much sense it makes.
You see, there is this Japanese belief that discarded objects may bear grudges to those who threw them away, and may acquire enough energy to animate themselves and take their revenge. Moral of the story is "do not throw your shit without a second thought. "
Quite obviously, demons formed this way resemble various household appliances, because they were formerly one. A cracked grin may be added to a lantern, sandals gain an eye and feet, and both classically and in popular culture -if you would remember Kirby games, for example- umbrella spirits are described with a single eye, a sandalled foot where the handle should be, and a long tongue.
The name for the last one is usually Karakasa or Kasa Obake - umbrella ghost. How can you get more Normal/Ghost than a household appliance that turned into a vengeful spirit? (Well, they're usually of the playful sort, but that's besides the point. )
My point, bolded since no one wants to read me rambling about what I want to see in Pokemon - this is not the CaP project is about. Just because you cannot conceive a way to successfully design an Electric/Poison (or any other "unorthodox") type does not mean no one can. This is why CaP is a community effort.
"This typing does not make sense" is not an argument.
You see, there is this Japanese belief that discarded objects may bear grudges to those who threw them away, and may acquire enough energy to animate themselves and take their revenge. Moral of the story is "do not throw your shit without a second thought. "
Quite obviously, demons formed this way resemble various household appliances, because they were formerly one. A cracked grin may be added to a lantern, sandals gain an eye and feet, and both classically and in popular culture -if you would remember Kirby games, for example- umbrella spirits are described with a single eye, a sandalled foot where the handle should be, and a long tongue.
The name for the last one is usually Karakasa or Kasa Obake - umbrella ghost. How can you get more Normal/Ghost than a household appliance that turned into a vengeful spirit? (Well, they're usually of the playful sort, but that's besides the point. )
My point, bolded since no one wants to read me rambling about what I want to see in Pokemon - this is not the CaP project is about. Just because you cannot conceive a way to successfully design an Electric/Poison (or any other "unorthodox") type does not mean no one can. This is why CaP is a community effort.
"This typing does not make sense" is not an argument.
I also don't see why a typing that already exists shouldn't be considered. In my Garchomp counter concept, my idea was to do a Rock/Steel type with Levitate. I'm sure people would have seen that as boring, because 1) there already exist Rock/Steel type Pokemon and 2) it has a quadruple weakness to Fighting. But I actually wanted a Rock/Steel type for THOSE reasons. I wanted a Garchomp counter that's not difficult to dispose of by other means (i.e. using a Fighting move). I'm sure that some people who did not vote for Garchomp counter didn't vote for it because they were like "this is boring because we must basically go with Water/Steel, Fire/Steel or Rock/Steel, all of which already exist".
In short, just because a typing combination already exists doesn't mean we can't create a Pokemon with that typing combination.
In short, just because a typing combination already exists doesn't mean we can't create a Pokemon with that typing combination.
Yea, but it's more exciting to create to Pokemon with unique combinations. This is a community project, and the bottom line is that you are going to excite the community through exciting propositions.
Also Oxymoron, I don't really appreciate you quoting me from a previous CaP project when I have clearly changed my opinions since then, a fact you would be aware of if you were following this one =/
Also Oxymoron, I don't really appreciate you quoting me from a previous CaP project when I have clearly changed my opinions since then, a fact you would be aware of if you were following this one =/
With all due respect, I think that if we must use original typings every CAP in order to "excite the community," regardless of interesting roles/abilities/etc., there must be something we're doing wrong.
I think Oxy made a lot of good points that a lot of people ( myself included ) were too quiet to bring up. This "don't pick an old type" policy is becoming more limiting than it is creative by now; surely we can think of different ways to be original?
It's not that we need to use original typing, it's that people are more inclined to vote for original typing. They have the option to recreate an existing type if they so please but the masses are going to choose original over "already-done" 9 times out of ten. Eventually we'll get a type that has been done before but as it's a democratic process it's not about appealing to the community as much as it is about the community deciding for itself.
I agree the "Don't pick an existing type combo" mentality is limiting in some way but it's in no way policy that is being rigirously enforced in order to gain popularity, as you make it out to be.
I agree that designing new combo types Pokémon is more exciting but I don't think that this must be necessary everytime. Searching new solutions using types that already exist is another way to be original and creative. I don't think that we need to limit CaP project to design new types combinations, there are another points that, I guess, are more important in order to design a new Pokémon.
And also, I think that any of types combination can make sense, for example, a Poison/Electric Pokémon hasn't be necessary a battery, there are so many other options. Before D/P generation a Steel/Fire Pokémon didn't make so much sense for me, but after seeing Heatran I think that any type combo can be made, even Water/Fire. In fact, Pokémon are only fantastic creatures, so I believe we can create any credible Pokémon. Imagine that Game Freak design a Fire/Water Pokémon for the next generation XD
And also, I think that any of types combination can make sense, for example, a Poison/Electric Pokémon hasn't be necessary a battery, there are so many other options. Before D/P generation a Steel/Fire Pokémon didn't make so much sense for me, but after seeing Heatran I think that any type combo can be made, even Water/Fire. In fact, Pokémon are only fantastic creatures, so I believe we can create any credible Pokémon. Imagine that Game Freak design a Fire/Water Pokémon for the next generation XD
Show me the rule that says "We must create new type combinations with every CAP Pokemon" and you get to be the new topic leader.
So... Incredibly... CLOSE!
I've just broken the tie with my vote for Poison, and that's something really amazing considering there's more than 110 votes total already.
In any case, I think Poison is the better type, if only for a small margin. Better resistances and TS absorption are really important.
I've just broken the tie with my vote for Poison, and that's something really amazing considering there's more than 110 votes total already.
In any case, I think Poison is the better type, if only for a small margin. Better resistances and TS absorption are really important.
I'm sorry, I meant no offense. I'm not really familiar with any of the posters here yet, and would have quoted it regardless of who said it; it was just a convenient quote to argue against.
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