Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[ace combat]

I really feel like Qwilfish should be either C- or UR. While it does have a niche that no other pokemon can do, it's niche isn't really viable now. The idea that Qwilfish can absorb Toxapex's Toxic Spikes and be a Wall Breaker that can stop rain checks such as Ferrothorn all works well in theory but not in practice. In order to wallbreak it needs for force a switch in order to set up severely hampering Qwilfish's usability. If you predict wrong and you were not able to force a switch you will probably die attempting to set up. The idea that it can absorb Toxapex's Toxic Spikes also has problems as Toxapex itself is a troubling matchup versus Qwilfish. The only way Qwilfish can kill Toxapex is with a +2 Explosion, and once again, if you predict wrong you will only do minimal damage as the opponent can just switch out to an appropriate steel or ghost type. You have to also keep in mind the only time Qwilfish is useable is while it is raining, which adds another factor to balance. The state of the metagame has become very bulky and it seems Qwilfish's biggest advantage is going against opponents that do not know what it can do. It can be compared to Crustle in the past that proved how strong something can be if you do not expect it, but if you know what it can do it really isn't viable. Qwilfish is not a pokemon I would ever consider if I was attempting to build a competitive team to go against experienced players. At the very least it does not seem to be on the same level as the other C rank pokemon.

Other stuff I feel less strongly about:

Zapdos I feel is stronger than the other B+ rank pokemon and is at least on the level of some of the A- rank pokemon. Zapdos should probably move up to A- as it really fits much better into the meta as Zygarde is now gone and has very good matchups against the rest of the meta.

Serperior as well I feel like should move up from B+ to A- as the bulkier meta helps it out as there are less things that can revenge kill it, and it's leech seeds are giving more HP as the meta gets bulkier. This significantly helps it in its sub seed efforts.

Pyukumuku I don't feel like is quite as strong as the rest of the B- rank pokemon. It is incredibly passive and has almost zero utility until certain key threats are eliminated. Also its biggest strength seems to be coming form people not know how to deal with it. I feel like it belongs better in C+ considering its niche.

Skarmory is seeing more life after Zygarde is gone and it has become much better at dealing with certain offensive threats. I feel like it is better than the other C pokemon and should move up to C+. Its now has much greater utility on stall teams with the new meta shifts.

 

[Egor]

up to A- : Agree
Zygod's departure means that Zapdos has an actual Ground immunity, and it can take advantage of ever-present CelePex cores. Static is a neat thing too, and Pressure coupled with bulk & typing makes Zapdos nearly staple on stall. Overall, Zapdos is in a solid spot rn.

up to C+ : Disagree
While Zygod's ban definitely made our steel bird's life easier, Skarmory still struggles to do things defensive Steel-types are currently supposed to do, i. e. check Psychic-types (read Tapu Lele). Skarmory's low special bulk doesn't let it act as a Psychic check, and stall, the playstyle Skarmory fits best, has more relevant Steel-types like Mega Aggron, Celesteela, and even Jirachi that are actually capable of checking Tapu Lele.

 

[Adapt or Die]

I’d seriously like to know what Mega Manectric is doing in the VR. I cannot think of a single thing it does that Tapu Koko doesn’t do better. Granted, this is already shown in it being where it is, but I believe it should be at C- or UR.

In my two years of playing OU on and off, I’ve probabaly seen this thing ONCE because whoever was using it despises the Tapus. Koko generally does a better job because it has a secondary type, item slot, and Electric Terrain (usually) to amplify its power to around Manectric’s. Manectric, on the other hand, takes up a Mega slot and is incredibly predictable, only really getting a small handful of usable moves that can barely put together a set. Koko opposes this by having several usable sets (some more so that others), only lacking the Fire coverage that Manectric has that’s useful for getting past Steel types, a few of which Koko blows back with Thunderbolt anyways (Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor).

In short, I firmly believe that Mega Manectric should drop from C to C- or be entierly unranked if it is seen fit.

I'll second this. Unlike the thundy-t nom earlier, I legit have not seen Mega Manectric on a decent team in forever. In a vacuum it may have some niche uses over koko or in tandem with it as an electric spam core, but I can't ever justify the use of a mega slot on so shitty a mon. The opportunity cost is just too huge for Mega Mane.

 

[JetpackPotatoes]

I’d seriously like to know what Mega Manectric is doing in the VR. I cannot think of a single thing it does that Tapu Koko doesn’t do better. Granted, this is already shown in it being where it is, but I believe it should be at C- or UR.

In my two years of playing OU on and off, I’ve probabaly seen this thing ONCE because whoever was using it despises the Tapus. Koko generally does a better job because it has a secondary type, item slot, and Electric Terrain (usually) to amplify its power to around Manectric’s. Manectric, on the other hand, takes up a Mega slot and is incredibly predictable, only really getting a small handful of usable moves that can barely put together a set. Koko opposes this by having several usable sets (some more so that others), only lacking the Fire coverage that Manectric has that’s useful for getting past Steel types, a few of which Koko blows back with Thunderbolt anyways (Celesteela, Skarmory, Scizor).

In short, I firmly believe that Mega Manectric should drop from C to C- or be entierly unranked if it is seen fit.

I disagree. I'd like to point out some things that Mega Mane can do that you've neglected to mention.
-OHKO Ferrothorn, Serperior, Magnezone, Excadrill and CB Bulu with Overheat or doing massive portion of their HP with Flamethrower. (While Zone is not ussually considered a defensive threat, it does check Koko)
-Revenge kill Ash-Greninja (Admittedly with chip mega mane can easily lose to water shuriken, but it will take more than a round of rocks: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric-Mega: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-Safely switch in on Celesteela: Heavy Slam 2HKOs Koko and can take a Thunderbolt, thus 1eve1ing Koko, but Mega Manetric cannot even be 4hko'd after rocks. -1 0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 52-62 (18.5 - 22%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock while both offensively check it, koko is not comfortably switching in.
-OHKO Z Landos, which Koko struggles do even with rocks up. While Koko can use Shuca to 1v1, this still takes a large portion of its hp. -Discourage the use of Volt Switch before mega evolving with lightning rod. Admittedly you won't use this often outside the beginning of a battle, but rising usage of Rotom-Wash usage and specs koko makes this more relevant.

Furthermore, I'd like to make a case for Mega Manetric moving up to C+/B-.
-Rising Celesteela/Pex core usage.
-Rising Ferrothron usage, making it fire coverage more valuable when comparing with Koko.
-Rising Garchomp usage, and while Mane cannot ohko it from full, a small amount of chip will put it into KO range.
-As mentioned earlier, rising usage of Volt Switch users that Lightning Rod can block.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah definitely disagree with Mega Mane rise. The dumb dog can actually lose hard to Celesteela if it switches into it and Celesteela is clicking Leech Seed most of the time, and there are moments the shitbag barely breaks through Pex (and with Ash-Gren and Volcarona a lot are still hefty in SpD). Its trivial niches and advantages are too microscopic for me to believe it to rise. I definitely wouldnt rank it above the niche stall mons and Mimikyu, while 80% of the time really bad, is okay in a very specific playstyle and some team comps. Theres also Mega Lati@s which Mega Mane doesn't really enjoy existing since getting through them is a chore while Mega Latios can Earthquake it if necessary.

Either way I see nothing that really lends it to a rise. Never understood why people clung onto such a shit mon like Mega Mane in OU in USUM. It should still stay ranked because it can be very okay, but we shouldn't oversell it whatsoever.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

I disagree. I'd like to point out some things that Mega Mane can do that you've neglected to mention.
-OHKO Ferrothorn, Serperior, Magnezone, Excadrill and CB Bulu with Overheat or doing massive portion of their HP with Flamethrower. (While Zone is not ussually considered a defensive threat, it does check Koko)
-Revenge kill Ash-Greninja (Admittedly with chip mega mane can easily lose to water shuriken, but it will take more than a round of rocks: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric-Mega: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-Safely switch in on Celesteela: Heavy Slam 2HKOs Koko and can take a Thunderbolt, thus 1eve1ing Koko, but Mega Manetric cannot even be 4hko'd after rocks. -1 0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 52-62 (18.5 - 22%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock while both offensively check it, koko is not comfortably switching in.
-OHKO Z Landos, which Koko struggles do even with rocks up. While Koko can use Shuca to 1v1, this still takes a large portion of its hp. -Discourage the use of Volt Switch before mega evolving with lightning rod. Admittedly you won't use this often outside the beginning of a battle, but rising usage of Rotom-Wash usage and specs koko makes this more relevant.

Furthermore, I'd like to make a case for Mega Manetric moving up to C+/B-.
-Rising Celesteela/Pex core usage.
-Rising Ferrothron usage, making it fire coverage more valuable when comparing with Koko.
-Rising Garchomp usage, and while Mane cannot ohko it from full, a small amount of chip will put it into KO range.
-As mentioned earlier, rising usage of Volt Switch users that Lightning Rod can block.

I'm sorry for bringing a 1 liner post but everything that Manetric has is also achieved by Zeraora, which allows for any other Mega to be used and OHKO TTar with Close Combat. The only thing that sets it apart is Intimidate and the only niche that gives is softchecking Scizor. Unrank Manetric

TLDR : Don't use Manetric, use Zeraora.

 

[lydian]

to A-:

to A-:
Not only do Tapu Fini and Mega Charizard X make a formidable core, they're also very strong in their own right in the current metagame, and I think A- would reflect that better. Mega Charizard X has been sitting in B+ for a while but it's so deadly with Defog support even TankChomp just gets chipped throughout a match and if Mega Charizard X has any Roost bait on the opposing team you can just keep recovering that Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin damage, and honestly, plenty of teams do have a member that gives Mega Charizard X ample set up and Roost opportunities, be it Kartana, Ferrothorn lacking Thunder Wave, Jirachi, even Assault Vest Magearna. Yet all of Mega Charizard X's checks are prone to residual damage: Landorus-T, Garchomp, Tapu Fini etc. Tapu Fini, on the other hand, is a wonderful Defogger that has been popping up more and more as of late, and I still think B+ is a bit underselling it. It so helpful for teammates like Mega Charizard and Volcarona and being a check to Ash-Greninja and Heatran all in one slot too can't be understated. All in all, I think both of these are established Pokémon in OU and they earn the A- ranking. Here's an SPL replay to illustrate a bit what I'm talking about.

to B:
Sucks to be a Gyarados in Rotom-W metagame. Like sure, it can be a threat to some unprepared balances, but its quite a coinflip because if your opponent has a Rotom-W Gyarados does kind of nothing, really.

to C+:

to C+:
I know both of these just rose in the last slate but, C rank is really underselling them. Kommo-o has a zillion sets and they're all pretty threatening in their own right, and the fact that it's so unpredictable also helps it a ton in that regard. I've been using some Kommo-o lately and C+ feels reasonable for sure. As for Mega Garchomp, the mixed Stealth Rock set is honestly really good and Swords Dance is about on par too, we saw lots of Mega Garchomp this SPL—here's a good replay, btw—and I find it a really consistent wallbreaker and rocker, in all honesty.

to C-:

to C-:

to C-:
All three of these feel really niche and bad. Mega Manectric is just really bad an pretty much an inferior Tapu Koko in nearly every way possible. Alolan Muk is kind of a sitting duck, it checks Tapu Lele, Volcarona, and Mega Alakazam but other than that it accomplishes nothing. And Qwilfish is just outclassed on rain I feel. Plus when was the last time anyone saw these in a serious game? I'd rather use Mega Camerupt and fucking Life Orb Zam over these three, to be honest.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk!

 

[Fusion Flare]

Alright, feel as if I should post something here.

to C-:
God, Mimikyu is literal dog shit in the metagame. Disguise + decent offensive typing does NOT make up how irrelevant it is in the metagame. If I want an offensive Ghost type to use in OU, I go Blacephalon, or even GENGAR. Defensive slot is out of the question because of Mega Sableye.
This thing is literally a sitting duck against any Steel capable of surving a +2 Z-Shadow Claw, ranging from Ferrothorn, Aggron, Scizor, and an especially big one goes to landorus-T.
I just feel as if Mimikyu has no place in the OU metagame. It's outclassed, relies on Swords Dance to not be passive, easy to revenge kill due to its frailty and mediocre Speed tier. It's just disappointing when compared to better options. '

to A+

On a positive note, however, Kartana proves itself to be one of the best offensive pokemon in the Metagame! Almost nothing switches into its coverage moves except Zapdos, Tornadus-T, and Volcarona, all of which lose health from Stealth Rocks and get blasted by Normalium Z. It's choice Scarf set is a fantastic revenge killer due to its solid Speed tier of 109. It's attack stat is humongous, and its Choice Band set is pretty much a godly wallbreaker. Its typing is also quite advantageous, as it lets it switch in on moves like Bulu's Wood Hammer, Garchomp's Stone Edge, and Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt due to its salvageble physical bulk. Beats Boost lets it snowball through teams, acting like a Moxie, which is especially effective when wielding a Choice scarf. Overall, Kartana is WONDERFUl in OU, and should generally move to A+.



-Datsplashtho

 

[JetpackPotatoes]

I'm sorry for bringing a 1 liner post but everything that Manetric has is also achieved by Zeraora, which allows for any other Mega to be used and OHKO TTar with Close Combat. The only thing that sets it apart is Intimidate and the only niche that gives is softchecking Scizor. Unrank Manetric

TLDR : Don't use Manetric, use Zeraora.

Mega Manectric can OHKO CB Bulu, Ferrothorn and Serperior, all of which Zeraora cannot.It also has a stonger volt switch(unless it choose to invest quite a fair bit into spa and holding a life orb, cutting into the damage it deal with plasma fists and close combat in the former's case). Mega manectric's advantage lies in being albe to remove offensive grass and Ferrothorn much more easily.

Yeah definitely disagree with Mega Mane rise. The dumb dog can actually lose hard to Celesteela if it switches into it and Celesteela is clicking Leech Seed most of the time, and there are moments the shitbag barely breaks through Pex (and with Ash-Gren and Volcarona a lot are still hefty in SpD). Its trivial niches and advantages are too microscopic for me to believe it to rise. I definitely wouldnt rank it above the niche stall mons and Mimikyu, while 80% of the time really bad, is okay in a very specific playstyle and some team comps. Theres also Mega Lati@s which Mega Mane doesn't really enjoy existing since getting through them is a chore while Mega Latios can Earthquake it if necessary.

Either way I see nothing that really lends it to a rise. Never understood why people clung onto such a shit mon like Mega Mane in OU in USUM. It should still stay ranked because it can be very okay, but we shouldn't oversell it whatsoever.

Can you explain to me Celesteela's move process to KO Mega Manectric as it switches in? I don't follow how Celesteela is beating it and I'd like your explanation(Unless the answer is Earthquake+chip, in which case it would be rather obvious). And yes, while the Mega Latis are issue for Mega Mane; however it is worth noting, to be fair, that Mega Mane always in a position in which in can pivot out against them.

 

[Scuba Diver]

I'm down to raise Kart to A+. Many teams sole answer to SD kart is Zap or Torn which just get blown the hell back with Breakneck Blitz (you gotta predict the Torn but people so brainlessly switch in to Kart it doesn't take a brain surgeon to guess it's coming in). Rotom-W and Tapu Fini picking up as teams defoggers is also really nice for Kart. The same goes for increasing Ferro use as a setup target. While more Celesteela isn't great, I think the overall meta points towards a more viable Kart. Between Scarf, SD and Band it's pretty much always putting in a fair deal of work. Normalium flips the tables on traditional offensive Kart checks like Volc and Zard(s). Rise please.

 

[Adapt or Die]

Either way I see nothing that really lends it to a rise. Never understood why people clung onto such a shit mon like Mega Mane in OU in USUM. It should still stay ranked because it can be very okay, but we shouldn't oversell it whatsoever.

I'm going to challenge the notion that something should stay ranked because it can be ok. There are a lot of mons that can be ok in OU that don't get ranked. My understanding of the ranking criteria is "viable"(as in can do things semi-consistently) and has a unique niche that distinguishes it from any better options. In my opinion Mega Mane is badly outclassed by the other electric types in the tier because its niche distinguishing features (faster than ash, overheat, intimidate) are not worth the opportunity cost of using another much more potent mega.

There are a lot of "viable" mons that aren't ranked, some of which I've nommed to be ranked, but were not deemed to meet the cut-off of the VR. I would argue if Mega-Mane is worthy of being ranked than we need a much longer VR.

I know I'm just a ladder player, but I don't think Mane is tearing up (or even really existent) in the tour scene. Feel free to correct me if this wrong.

 

[Colonel M]

Can you explain to me Celesteela's move process to KO Mega Manectric as it switches in? I don't follow how Celesteela is beating it and I'd like your explanation(Unless the answer is Earthquake+chip, in which case it would be rather obvious). And yes, while the Mega Latis are issue for Mega Mane; however it is worth noting, to be fair, that Mega Mane always in a position in which in can pivot out against them.

Basically the same as how Celesteela beats just about any other Pokemon that lacks recovery - Leech Seed + Protect chipping them to death. Especially with Rocks or a Toxic Spike on the field it gets progressively worse everytime Mega Manectric comes in. It's not that it loses straight up 1v1 right away - but that it often does nothing to the CelePex cores because it can still laugh at its pathetic attempts of attacking so long as there's an Electric immune or resist somewhere (like said Mega Latias). Pivots like Rotom-W, Tornadus-T, and Tapu Koko often have methods of recovery, something that bolsters their moves powers (Z Crystal or Specs vs an extremely specific Lightningrod), or have additional utility on top of what they do.

As far as your scenario:

Hide

Even if there are no rocks on the field, Mega Mane is almost guaranteed taking 25% in the combination sequence of Leech Seed + Protect and assuming you're either going for Volt Switch for momentum or Thunderbolt to try to go for the 2HKO. Emphasis on "try to" because Leech Seed, Protect, and Leftovers can practically make that 2HKO into a 3HKO. Steela would recover roughly 100 health per turn assuming Leftovers and Leech Seed on Mega Mane, while the maximum damage roll barring a crit is 260. Using simple math and assuming Steela was at full during the first time Mega Mane Thunderbolts (and seeded + Protected for two turns):

397-260=137. On this turn, Celesteela would recover roughly 100 health to rebound back to about 237. On the Protect turn, Celesteela would go back to about 337.

(As far as Lefties + Leech Seed recovery numbers, Lefties is 63, and Leech Seed from Mega Mane is 44. Yes this is technically above 100 but I wanted to keep the math simple for demonstration).

Now Manectric went from taking about 25% damage in a sequence to 50%+. I say 50% because the Celesteela player could retaliate with Flamethrower and do about 29-34%. That means in a sequence of 4 turns if Mega Mane switched into Leech Seed and the Celesteela player (for whatever reason) decided to stay in Mega Mane could take almost 80% damage. And still lose with Celesteela still remaining alive because in those 4 turns Mega Mane would fail to get its 2HKO on Turn 5. It's roughly the same scenario as how Magnezones without Specs or Electrium Z can lose, though a little less extreme since Magnezone takes more from Flamethrower and usually deals less damage overall (Magnezone has slightly lower SpA).

Seriously this mon is pretty dong. It should never rise for quite a while. No real meta trends favor it and there are much more valuable Megas to consider before it.

I'm going to challenge the notion that something should stay ranked because it can be ok. There are a lot of mons that can be ok in OU that don't get ranked. My understanding of the ranking criteria is "viable"(as in can do things semi-consistently) and has a unique niche that distinguishes it from any better options. In my opinion Mega Mane is badly outclassed by the other electric types in the tier because its niche distinguishing features (faster than ash, overheat, intimidate) are not worth the opportunity cost of using another much more potent mega.

There are a lot of "viable" mons that aren't ranked, some of which I've nommed to be ranked, but were not deemed to meet the cut-off of the VR. I would argue if Mega-Mane is worthy of being ranked than we need a much longer VR.

I know I'm just a ladder player, but I don't think Mane is tearing up (or even really existent) in the tour scene. Feel free to correct me if this wrong.

The Mega opportunity cost is huge. This is why I feel Mega Mane alone shouldn't rise, but also because it can't even beat the core that is being suggested in the process in a long string (barring some predicted switches). That being said - it does have a niche over a lot of the Electric-types in being a little more capable of bypassing Grass-types and still kind of luring them in (as well as Grounds, but Koko can do this too and still smash with Specs DGleam on a lot of them). It's also still a pivot that can check Ash-Gren, and it does very okay against a lot of teams. I don't want to make it sound like I'm overselling Mega Mane because I'm sure you're aware I absolutely hate this mon in OU because it's a do-nothing mon IMO, but its niches are justified enough to keep it ranked to me. Obviously I wouldn't care about it being unranked, but I would rather do more productive things than talk about a lot of shitty C mons (like, you know, Zapdos A-, Lele A+, basically anything than C- mons).

Sadly the only reason I feel compelled to respond to C noms is because they progress exactly how it did just now. Person A grossly overrates or just throws shade on a niche Pokemon to get an otherwise half-assed discussion on a Pokemon that probably shouldn't even move or its ranking is barely of any interest to anyone else in the grand scheme of viable Pokemon on a major amount of teams.

Either way I think I'd rather curb all future discussion with Mega Mane, but since I'm technically a person with a horse in the race I'd rather Finch or some other mod do the honors than myself.

On that note - I saw above on Tyranitar being B+ and I don't really agree with that either. It's been a fairly consistent Excadrill supporter and does okay at being a rocker if necessary too. BandTar may not quite be at its prime back in previous gens, but a lot of teams still have rather poor responses to it at times since their Rock resists don't always exist or take a decent chunk from Earthquake.

 

[Jordy]

→ A-
Tapu Fini is definitely due for a rise, if you look at its recent usage in SPL, it's been used 11 times since week 5 (week 6 and onward). Being able to completely deny Heatran and Ash-Greninja throughout the match is just super valuable right now. I also believe that ranking Tapu Fini alongside Pokemon like Excadrill and Mega Lopunny is really underselling it, and feel like it's definitely more on par with Pokemon like Gliscor and Mega Scizor.

→ A-
Zapdos has enjoyed a pretty significant uptick in usage, being capable of answering Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, and Kartana throughout a match pretty consistently. Though not a lot has changed for it in particular, just being capable of neutering these Pokemon throughout the match is really valuable right now and I think that should be reflected with a rise.

→ B+
While Reuniclus isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, since it rose on the VR, it has slowly slipped in usage. To add onto that, I feel like Mega Latias, Mega Alakazam, and Tapu Lele are all far more reliable Psychic-type wincons that you will want to fit onto your team more often than Reuniclus.

→ B
I agree with everything that Lyd said in regards to Gyarados. Being Gyarados in a meta where Pokemon like Rotom-W and Zapdos are really good simply sucks.

I agree with these noms, but don't have a lot to add

→ B

→ B

→ C+

→ C+

→ C-

Besides these noms, I think that C rank as a whole could probably use a bit of an overhaul. There's simply no way Pokemon like Bisharp and Volcanion are realistically C+ while Pokemon that are actually used, like Moltres, Mega Aggron, and Crawdaunt are C.

 

[Guard]

Tapu Fini B+>>>A-

As previous posters have been claiming already, Tapu Fini is gaining traction as a useful bulky defogger/defensive pivot. Because it’s a hard check to the tier’s two most prominent Pokémon right now, its niche is becoming more and more valuable. Typing and bulk gives it ample opportunities to come in on every relevant hazard setter bar Ferrothorn and to an extent Garchomp and defog their hazard away in front of their face while taunting them to prevent further uses. Also acts as a blanket check to many dangerous threats and a decent stallbreaker if opting for Nature’s Madness. It’s usage in SPL right now is higher than every other Tapu and its win rate is nothing to scoff at either. Personally, I believe Tapu Fini is at it’s best since its SM-days and the gap between itself and the other Tapus isn’t quite as large as it used to be, which would be reflected correctly by a rise.

Tangrowth A->>>B+

Oh how the greats have fallen. Ever since Zygarde got banned, Tangrowth’s niche has been overshadowed by Ferrothorn, which offers a lot more in general, and Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, the latter of which is getting OU usage again. Pair this up with the shift from a more offensive meta to a more bulky meta it can’t scratch and Tangrowth just isn’t that appealing anymore. Of course it’s still a fine choice in some defensive backbones but in my eyes, it fails to compare to something like Gliscor or KyuB.

 

[Fusion Flare]

View attachment 163356Tapu Fini B+>>>A-

As previous posters have been claiming already, Tapu Fini is gaining traction as a useful bulky defogger/defensive pivot. Because it’s a hard check to the tier’s two most prominent Pokémon right now, its niche is becoming more and more valuable. Typing and bulk gives it ample opportunities to come in on every relevant hazard setter bar Ferrothorn and to an extent Garchomp and defog their hazard away in front of their face while taunting them to prevent further uses. Also acts as a blanket check to many dangerous threats and a decent stallbreaker if opting for Nature’s Madness. It’s usage in SPL right now is higher than every other Tapu and its win rate is nothing to scoff at either. Personally, I believe Tapu Fini is at it’s best since its SM-days and the gap between itself and the other Tapus isn’t quite as large as it used to be, which would be reflected correctly by a rise.

View attachment 163357Tangrowth A->>>B+

Oh how the greats have fallen. Ever since Zygarde got banned, Tangrowth’s niche has been overshadowed by Ferrothorn, which offers a lot more in general, and Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, the latter of which is getting OU usage again. Pair this up with the shift from a more offensive meta to a more bulky meta it can’t scratch and Tangrowth just isn’t that appealing anymore. Of course it’s still a fine choice in some defensive backbones but in my eyes, it fails to compare to something like Gliscor or KyuB.

I'm gona have to agree with Tangrowth dropping. While Tangrowth is more sustainable than Ferrothorn with Giga Drain and not trappable by Magnezone, the fact that ferrothorn can set up hazards, has a better defensive typing, and better special bulk shrivels Tangrowth's niche. Now I'm not saying its bad by any means. But when compared to Ferrothorn, Tangrowth is just not that good.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel that Volcanion should go up to B- rank. Not a big fan of the Assault vest set which is it's most popular item as I feel it doesn't really have the typing to run it effectively. I feel that Volcanion's great defense is a stat that is often overlooked. With max HP and a bit of investment in defense, it can take super effective hits from even STAB boosted attacks.







Volcanion @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Def / 68 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave



This set is really great against lead Landorus. With the evs given, It can take even a 252 atk adamant Earthquake, activate iapapa berry and ohko it with Steam Eruption. It can also Revenge Kill Mawile after an SD boost as the evs given outspeed adamant max speed Mawile and can take a +2 Sucker Punch even after taking Stealth Rock damage. Weaker Earthquakes from pokes like Mamoswine and Excadrill have an 83% chance of activating Iapapa berry. The speed evs also mean you can outspeed and KO Adamant Azumarill that has set up Belly Drum.

There are even some instances where this set does better than The Assault Vest set. One example I can think of is against Kingdra

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 205-243 (56.3 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volcanion also really likes the rise in Magearna, Heatran and Kartana usage since it can hit all three of them for big damage with it's STAB attacks and has a 4× resistance to Steel and Fire. It is also bulky enough to take a +1 boosted leaf blade from Kartana after Stealth Rock damage which is great for preventing a sweep

Here's a match I played against OPJellicent:

 

[War Incarnate]

View attachment 163356Tapu Fini B+>>>A-

As previous posters have been claiming already, Tapu Fini is gaining traction as a useful bulky defogger/defensive pivot. Because it’s a hard check to the tier’s two most prominent Pokémon right now, its niche is becoming more and more valuable. Typing and bulk gives it ample opportunities to come in on every relevant hazard setter bar Ferrothorn and to an extent Garchomp and defog their hazard away in front of their face while taunting them to prevent further uses. Also acts as a blanket check to many dangerous threats and a decent stallbreaker if opting for Nature’s Madness. It’s usage in SPL right now is higher than every other Tapu and its win rate is nothing to scoff at either. Personally, I believe Tapu Fini is at it’s best since its SM-days and the gap between itself and the other Tapus isn’t quite as large as it used to be, which would be reflected correctly by a rise.

View attachment 163357Tangrowth A->>>B+

Oh how the greats have fallen. Ever since Zygarde got banned, Tangrowth’s niche has been overshadowed by Ferrothorn, which offers a lot more in general, and Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, the latter of which is getting OU usage again. Pair this up with the shift from a more offensive meta to a more bulky meta it can’t scratch and Tangrowth just isn’t that appealing anymore. Of course it’s still a fine choice in some defensive backbones but in my eyes, it fails to compare to something like Gliscor or KyuB.

I agree with Tangrowth dropping, although I think we might have to wait and see how the meta develops against or for Tangrowth before we drop it or leave it. Right; the meta is shifting into a bulky one; and this is one that Tangrowth can't touch; however, it still provides nice coverage for some of the strongest meta trends, such as HP Ice for Lando-T and Garchomp, HP Fire for some of its competition, Ferrothorn, and Earthquake for Heatran. You're right, Ferrothorn is better, and so is Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, since they have secondary typings that make them better and provide more utility to their team, however, I think something you forgot to mention is its vulnerability to Knock Off. Its special bulk is shit; even with maximum special defense investment, it's still kind of disappointing imo, so you need Assault Vest to patch that up or else you're bait for Tornadus-T, and if that gets removed, you're basically gonna die. Mono-Grass is also shit in a meta where Heatran is on everyone's minds 24/7; Magma Storm can and will OHKO even AV Tangrowth. Yeah, I think it's lost a lot of its rustic charm right now, though I might be wrong and it might stay in A-.

 

[Charmflash]

Alright, feel as if I should post something here.


View attachment 163047to C-:
God, Mimikyu is literal dog shit in the metagame. Disguise + decent offensive typing does NOT make up how irrelevant it is in the metagame. If I want an offensive Ghost type to use in OU, I go Blacephalon, or even GENGAR. Defensive slot is out of the question because of Mega Sableye.
This thing is literally a sitting duck against any Steel capable of surving a +2 Z-Shadow Claw, ranging from Ferrothorn, Aggron, Scizor, and an especially big one goes to landorus-T.
I just feel as if Mimikyu has no place in the OU metagame. It's outclassed, relies on Swords Dance to not be passive, easy to revenge kill due to its frailty and mediocre Speed tier. It's just disappointing when compared to better options. '

None of the Pokemon you mentioned do even remotely the same thing Mimikyu does. Mimikyu fits very well on selected offensive builds because it serves multiple purposes being able to revenge kill as well as break balanced cores with Ghostium-Z, which is the only set that should be used on this Pokemon, ever, as it lets you play out your qualities as best as possible. It is particularly good against the two most common playstyles offense and balance. To utilize Mimikyu well against those you will have to take very different approaches:

1. vs balance / slower, bulkier offense thats leaning towards balance: bring Mimikyu into a Pokemon it threatens (speak Reuniclus, Mega-Latios, Ash-Greninja etc.) / a Pokemon it can set up on (speak Tangrowth, Clefable etc.) via Volt Switch / U-Turn (or even double switches / after a Pokemon dies) and set up to 600 Atk points after which your Ghost-type z-move is absolutely devastating, able to OHKO a majority of mainstays on balance and deal massive damage to the others. Paired with access to priority and room to fit it, you are even able to pick off things like Mega-Scizor or attempt to sweep if you get multiple boosts (which is all but unrealistic, especially if you use your mimikyu during the lategame)
   a few relevant calcs

   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 342-403 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 303-357 (86 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 372-438 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
   +1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Landorus-Therian: 297-349 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 346-408 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 222-262 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
   which allows you to kill with Shadow Sneak after Stealth Rock.
   0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 94-112 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 84-100 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 51-60 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- 46.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
   ^ is ofc not optimal to set up on but still in your favor (zoro won this way vs me last week by setting up with his MegaTar on not only one but two scalds)
   0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 94-112 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   You get the idea by now so I'll stop
2. vs offense: This one is a bit more obvious and already the main way people use Mimikyu. Use your disguise ability to take any hit that may be thrown at you and take something out with Ghostium-Z / Ghostium-Z + shadow sneak / super effective Play Rough. This will leave you up one Pokemon with a relatively bad Pokemon in Z-move- and Disguise-less Mimikyu, however, you have already taken out a Pokemon and a full health Mimikyu is still very much better than no Pokemon since you have the ever so important additional sack in offense vs. offense and Mimikyu can even dish some last effort damage with Shadow Sneak or any other STAB in case it is faster / tanks a hit.

Here are my two favorite applications of Mimikyu, one team I made a while back that got very popular during OLT & set the standard for rain for a while and the other is from the most recent edition of SPL

Importable

Importable

Because of its opportunistic nature Mimikyu should also never be used outside of offense and requires powerful Pokemon as well as Volt/U-Turn support and a reliable Stealth Rock setter alongside it, but play it towards its qualities (as a midgame breaker, revenge killer and cleaner) / in comps that benefit from what Mimikyu brings to the table and it will without a doubt perform very satisfactory.

Personally I would like to see it alongside Pokemon such as Charizard Y and Slowbro in B- rank but I'm going to keep the nomination realistic since I dont think Finchinator will be convinced by even this post and nom it to C+. At the very least it shouldnt drop imo. And stop using absolutely terrible sets such as Life Orb or god forbid Red Card, Mimikyu is a pretty unviable Pokemon with those.

 

[JdRDMS]

This is my first post relating to OU, and I'm fairly new to it, so please go easy on me if (read "when") you disagree.
First a mini-nom.

Keldeo: B- -> B
I don't really have much to say about this, but after a couple of battles and getting good use out of it, I was honestly surprised to learn that it was B-. I haven't tried Choice Specs, but Calm Mind is surprisingly good, breaking through a good amount of things and taking good special hits at +1. It also appreciates the slight decline of Tapu Bulu and (apparently) Tangrowth. Again, I don't really have much to say on this, but I do think B- is a bit low. But now onto the real meat of this post.

Mega Tyranitar: A -> A+
Hear me out. I'm going to talk about the two viable sets for Mega Tyranitar. Let's start with Dragon Dance, my preference of the two tbh. Here's the set in case you don't know.

Set

Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

This is mainly used as a mid-game or late-game sweeper, but early-game works pretty well too. +1 Mega Tyranitar is incredibly strong, and combined with good coverage, it can take out a wide variety of threats. Ice Punch hits Garchomp and Lando, Fire Punch hits Magearna, Mega Scizor, Magnezone, and Ferrothorn, and Earthquake hits Magearna, Mega Mawile, and Bisharp even harder than Fire Punch, as well as 2HKOing Toxapex. Setting up is also pretty safe, especially if you have dual screens up, thanks to Mega Ttar's good bulk. A good user of dual screens is Tapu Koko. As for meta changes, a good chunk of rises like Amoongus, Mega Garchomp, and Kyurem, are just more things it can wreck with Ice Punch or Stone Edge.
But that's not all, Mega Tyranitar can also run a viable Stealth Rock set as well. It already has good power without boosts, and good bulk allows it to set rocks pretty easily. It even works as a Pursuit trapper. I've used the Dragon Dance set more, and I honestly think that DD is better, but I can't ignore a set if it's viable. Overall, with a combo of high power, good bulk, good moves, and more than one viable set, I think that Mega Tyranitar deserves to rise to A+.
Again, I'm fairly new to OU, and this post is probably terrible too (I generally suck at writing noms), I just wanted to share my thoughts on some mons I've been getting good success out of. I'll appreciate any constructive criticism.

 

[Fusion Flare]

None of the Pokemon you mentioned do even remotely the same thing Mimikyu does. Mimikyu fits very well on selected offensive builds because it serves multiple purposes being able to revenge kill as well as break balanced cores with Ghostium-Z, which is the only set that should be used on this Pokemon, ever, as it lets you play out your qualities as best as possible. It is particularly good against the two most common playstyles offense and balance. To utilize Mimikyu well against those you will have to take very different approaches:

1. vs balance / slower, bulkier offense thats leaning towards balance: bring Mimikyu into a Pokemon it threatens (speak Reuniclus, Mega-Latios, Ash-Greninja etc.) / a Pokemon it can set up on (speak Tangrowth, Clefable etc.) via Volt Switch / U-Turn (or even double switches / after a Pokemon dies) and set up to 600 Atk points after which your Ghost-type z-move is absolutely devastating, able to OHKO a majority of mainstays on balance and deal massive damage to the others. Paired with access to priority and room to fit it, you are even able to pick off things like Mega-Scizor or attempt to sweep if you get multiple boosts (which is all but unrealistic, especially if you use your mimikyu during the lategame)
   a few relevant calcs

   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 342-403 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 303-357 (86 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 372-438 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
   +1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 68 Def Landorus-Therian: 297-349 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 346-408 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
   +2 252+ Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 222-262 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
   which allows you to kill with Shadow Sneak after Stealth Rock.
   0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 94-112 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 84-100 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 51-60 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- 46.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
   ^ is ofc not optimal to set up on but still in your favor (zoro won this way vs me last week by setting up with his MegaTar on not only one but two scalds)
   0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 94-112 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
   You get the idea by now so I'll stop
2. vs offense: This one is a bit more obvious and already the main way people use Mimikyu. Use your disguise ability to take any hit that may be thrown at you and take something out with Ghostium-Z / Ghostium-Z + shadow sneak / super effective Play Rough. This will leave you up one Pokemon with a relatively bad Pokemon in Z-move- and Disguise-less Mimikyu, however, you have already taken out a Pokemon and a full health Mimikyu is still very much better than no Pokemon since you have the ever so important additional sack in offense vs. offense and Mimikyu can even dish some last effort damage with Shadow Sneak or any other STAB in case it is faster / tanks a hit.

Here are my two favorite applications of Mimikyu, one team I made a while back that got very popular during OLT & set the standard for rain for a while and the other is from the most recent edition of SPL

Importable

Importable

Because of its opportunistic nature Mimikyu should also never be used outside of offense and requires powerful Pokemon as well as Volt/U-Turn support and a reliable Stealth Rock setter alongside it, but play it towards its qualities (as a midgame breaker, revenge killer and cleaner) / in comps that benefit from what Mimikyu brings to the table and it will without a doubt perform very satisfactory.

Personally I would like to see it alongside Pokemon such as Charizard Y and Slowbro in B- rank but I'm going to keep the nomination realistic since I dont think Finchinator will be convinced by even this post and nom it to C+. At the very least it shouldnt drop imo. And stop using absolutely terrible sets such as Life Orb or god forbid Red Card, Mimikyu is a pretty unviable Pokemon with those.

Well, I guess I was kinda wrong. Thanks for pointing out the flaws in my post.

But do you personally agree on Kartana rising? Just asking.

EDIT: Alright so while rereading your post, I realized something. While most Ghost-types can't do what Mimikyu is capable of, it's ACTUALLY not Ghosts that outclass it. It's outclassed by other Swords Dance users.

• 
  Mega Mawile has a better Offensive typing, can forego Steel STAB for more coverage, has two abilities that ease the matchup against Landorus-T(Hyper Cutter) and physical attackers(Intimidate), and has a FAR higher attack stat, meaning it doesn't even NEED to set up an SD to cleave through teams. With these traits in mind, it HEAVILY overshadows Mimikyu. However, Mimikyu has a few things to differentiate itself from Mega mawile (who, let's be honest here, is just BETTER.)Such as Disguise, better Speed and STAB from its priority. SO, I'll give you that.

• 
  Landorus-T is self explanatory, as comparing one of THE BEST pokemon in OU, It's no surprise that Mimikyu is nothing compared to it, as Landorus-T has Intimidate(again), can set up Stealth Rock, and (again) a better Attack stat. Mimikyu only has slightly better speed and isn't revenge killed by Ash-greninja. FLyinium Z lets it break past its traditional checks, which were Grass-types. Rockium Z, on the other hand, lets Landorus-T break through Celesteela and Rotom-W. It's also usable after the Z-move so Landorus-T can hit Zard Y/Tornadus-T without using Flyinium Z.

• 
  Excadrill has a much better offensive typing, is far harder to revenge kill under sand, and can remove hazards. It can also set them up, but the lead set runs Mold Breaker, and not Swords Dance.

• 
  Kartana has higher attack, speed,and the ability to snowball teams with Beast Boost. Also, If running Normalium Z, It completely bodybags its usual checks such as Tornadus-T, Zapdos, and Volcarona. While having no form of priority, It makes u for that by having access to Sacred Sword. It's also worth noting that in Grassy terrain, its nearly unstoppable.

So while Mimikyu differentiates itself from Ghost types, Swords Dance users are a different story.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah not seeing a Keldeo rise myself. In a tier dominated by Toxapex and the surge of Tapu Fini it's just a Pokemon plagued with a lot of problems and very few solutions to bypass these threats. If anything I think the metagame has gotten worse for it overall since the only change it kind of likes is Ferrothorn being used more as the Grass-type. I dont see how Keldeo is in the same ranks as someone like Jirachi which offers a lot more consistency to teams as a prime example.

 

[robofiend]

This is my first post relating to OU, and I'm fairly new to it, so please go easy on me if (read "when") you disagree.
First a mini-nom.

Keldeo: B- -> B
I don't really have much to say about this, but after a couple of battles and getting good use out of it, I was honestly surprised to learn that it was B-. I haven't tried Choice Specs, but Calm Mind is surprisingly good, breaking through a good amount of things and taking good special hits at +1. It also appreciates the slight decline of Tapu Bulu and (apparently) Tangrowth. Again, I don't really have much to say on this, but I do think B- is a bit low. But now onto the real meat of this post.

Mega Tyranitar: A -> A+
Hear me out. I'm going to talk about the two viable sets for Mega Tyranitar. Let's start with Dragon Dance, my preference of the two tbh. Here's the set in case you don't know.

Set

Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

This is mainly used as a mid-game or late-game sweeper, but early-game works pretty well too. +1 Mega Tyranitar is incredibly strong, and combined with good coverage, it can take out a wide variety of threats. Ice Punch hits Garchomp and Lando, Fire Punch hits Magearna, Mega Scizor, Magnezone, and Ferrothorn, and Earthquake hits Magearna, Mega Mawile, and Bisharp even harder than Fire Punch, as well as 2HKOing Toxapex. Setting up is also pretty safe, especially if you have dual screens up, thanks to Mega Ttar's good bulk. A good user of dual screens is Tapu Koko. As for meta changes, a good chunk of rises like Amoongus, Mega Garchomp, and Kyurem, are just more things it can wreck with Ice Punch or Stone Edge.
But that's not all, Mega Tyranitar can also run a viable Stealth Rock set as well. It already has good power without boosts, and good bulk allows it to set rocks pretty easily. It even works as a Pursuit trapper. I've used the Dragon Dance set more, and I honestly think that DD is better, but I can't ignore a set if it's viable. Overall, with a combo of high power, good bulk, good moves, and more than one viable set, I think that Mega Tyranitar deserves to rise to A+.
Again, I'm fairly new to OU, and this post is probably terrible too (I generally suck at writing noms), I just wanted to share my thoughts on some mons I've been getting good success out of. I'll appreciate any constructive criticism.

Sorry but putting Megatar in A+ isn't right.

First: DDance is a fine set on its own but it struggles with common defensive and offensive cores. Scarf Lando + Ferro is a really common core that can pretty much checkmate it by sending in Ferro to eat the Fire punch or blast it with PW/Gyro and then RK-ing with Scarf Lando. SpDef Bulu can check it from full HP and the tier's fire and flying types usually have coverage for it. Offensive sets also take huge damage from Ash-Gren, Scarf Lele, Fairium/SG Magearna (needs some investment to beat, but ya know), Kartana, Modest Zam, and other Scarfers/Weather abusers. There are just so many mons that Tyranitar has to worry about that it's hard to see where it even comes in: even easy switches like Torn-T, Heatran, or Zapdos come with the risk of Paralysis, Taunt, U-Turn, Z-moves, burns, Poison, or just plain chip damage. Stall mons like Clefable, Quagsire, or Pyukumuku make it dead weight in those matchups as well.

DDance is actually an amazing set with Screens/Aurora/Grassy Terrain up, but to me that is sort of beside the point, because then we're talking about a mon getting substantial team support to sweep, which isn't exactly an A+ quality to have. Tons of mons are deadly behind screens - notably double dancers, DD Megazard, M-Mawile, Kommo-o, etc. The whole point of A/A+ mons is that they enable their teammates more than they require their support, and when they require extensive support to be effective it's not really indicative that they should move up.

Second: SR is a solid set, but it is still "expensive". You're giving up on running a more traditional rocker like Ferro, Clefable, Heatran, or Lando (all of whom share weaknesses with Tyranitar but have better defensive qualities, recovery namely), you're giving up on running a super powerful mega like Mawile, Medicham, or Alakazam, and you're adding yet another mon who gets dunked on by Ash/Prot-Gren, Steelium/Grassium Heatran, Modest Zam, SG Magearna, Kartana, and a host of others.

...

Keldeo I'm less passionate about, but I think that it hates Rotom-W, Tapu Fini, M-Latios, Bulu, stall, and Rain (Pelliper/Torn-T) enough to stay ranked at B-. While I do like Keldeo, it suffers from a meh speed tier, limited defensive viability, the innate popularity of its checks, a lack of an ability, and a not-super-unique niche in the meta. It's one of those mons I don't plan for but still am prepared for just because of normal team composition. So while it is cool, I don't necessarily think a complete case has been made for it to rise, nor have its checks faded away to the degree that they would need to for Keld to pick up a boost.

 

[MANNAT]

Hey there, I just wanted to talk about some stuff that I think should rise with the recent meta shifts.

I think that Celesteela has risen back to the tier of metagame defining threat and all around incredible mon that warrants A+ rank post-Zygarde ban. With Zygarde's ban, standard Celepex balance structures have become significantly better/easier to fit onto teams. Celesteela obviously does the same thing it always does, but not having to worry about packing an additional hard ground check on your team in addition to steela has made it much more splashable and effective in general. Additionally, MegaZam surging again has made steela just that much more necessary on balance teams that require the role compression that it provides. Obviously the rise of electrics like Tapu Koko and Rotom-W irritates the fuck out of Celesteela, but I think that its increased splashability and other metagame factors that are kind to it make it fit much better with the threats in A+.


Protean Greninja has always been a frightening threat that dips and rises as the metagame does, it's always really scary to face and generally pretty good, its viability just changes based on team structures. With teams shifting to more balanced structures and being a tad slower in general, Protean Greninja has once again risen as a potent offensive threat that can abuse these structures with its versatility between sets like Ebelt, Metronome, and Z, allowing it to tailor itself to beat specific cores and teams. One thing that's a bit discouraging is the rise of Mega Alakazam, because protean zam can tear apart a lot of the offenses Greninja is traditionally featured on, but the general balanced shift in the metagame combined with Gren just being used and abused more right now makes it more than worthy of A+ rank right now.


I think that Mega Charizard X is a really strong breaker at the moment, being able to dismantle Celepex balances with DD Flare Blitz/EQ/Roost, now that Zygarde has departed from the tier and Dragon Claw isn't nearly as important anymore. Additionally, it can sweep through a lot of the more offensive teams that rely on Landorus-T as the primary method of speed control. Zardx is probably my favorite breaker/sweeper right now and I think it should go to like A rank with how effective it is against common teams in the current metagame, but the fact that entire teams need to be built around it kind of makes A- instead of A rank reasonable as a rise. Zardx is just a mon I loathe facing at team preview that tears the shit out of a lot of common teams atm, so I definitely think that it should move up to A- or A rank.


Zapdos has once again cemented itself as a powerful option on a myriad teams that can irritate the shit out of balance cores with pressure + paralysis spam or cripple offensive mons with static in critical moments while using its great coverage to pick apart these teams. Zapdos has a lot more freedom to run Defog or 3 Attacks in this metagame, as going Iceless doesn't automatically make you Zyg bait, and there's more viable defoggers than ever that fit onto teams like Tapu Fini and Lando, meaning that it's easier to fit Zapdos into teams. Kartana is the top tier threat it always is, and with people experimenting with a slew of different sets ranging from Choice Band to SD Z, Zapdos is still a nice check to it that can really ease up the pressure on offensive teams to run multiple resists for it to not get swept by Scarf. I think that zapdos is a really great mon at the moment and like Zardx, can move up to A- or A rank for sure.

Mega Gallade is a mon that's honestly always been pretty solid, but really struggled in the Zygarde meta because a lot of the shit that checks it also checked Zyg like Bold Clef and Scarf Lando. A lot more Clefables run Calm for Zam and with Landos starting to explore more offensively-oriented rocks sets, Mega Gallade is in a solid place as a balance breaker at the moment. SD is fucking frightening to deal with, shredding apart Celepex, Bulutran, TTar SR Lando, etc type cores that are running around at the moment. On top of that, its solid base 110 speed tier, allows it to be much more threatening against more offensive teams than Medicham, not being forced out by shit like Kart and Garchomp. Obviously, Gallade isn't a top tier mega by any means, but it's a solid breaker that fairs well in the meta at the moment, so I think that it should settle into like B rank at the moment, it's definitely way better than the rest of the garbage in the C ranks at the moment.

 

[lydian]

o yeah some more stuff i forgot to talk about on my last post:

to A-:
I agree with this one, for sure. Zapdos is in a really nice spot in light of Zygarde's absence. It makes for some really juicy cores as it checks troublesome Pokémon like Kartana, Landorus-T, and Tornadus-T all in one slot. Its an okay Defogger too, most notably handling Z-Fly Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. Most stuff has already been said about Zapdos so I won't restate what others said already.

to B+:
Choice Scarf Jirachi is one of the better and most consistent Choice Scarf users that BO has on its arsenal and I feel like B rank is kind of underselling it a bit. The role compression it provides is insane, and unlike other BO Choice Scarf users, Healing Wish is a formidable tool that really makes Pokemon like Mega Charizard X and Volcarona get a lot more chance to shine. It has a 10% usage in SPL which honestly speaks a lot when you consider that it means about every other BO teams likes to pick it in tournament level. Small sample size, sure, but still an extremely accurate picture of the OU metagame we have at the moment, I feel.

to B-:
Mega Pinsir is just on a terrible spot right now. Not only is Rotom-W everywhere, but the rise in viability of Celesteela and Zapdos make things even worse for it. The fact that it hasn't been used a single time this SPL should speak for itself too.

to B-:
I agree with LL that Mega Gallade is due for a rise. I nominated it to C+ last time as it previously was in C, but B- feels a lot more reasonable mostly for the points LL stated. We've seen it thrice this SPL already and it's surely better than Pokémon like Volcanion, Terrakion, and Bisharp, that have yet to be used and for good reason. Swords Dance is quite an useful tool that makes Mega Gallade very rough to deal with for a plethora of teams alongside its superior bulk, so I fully agree with this one.

to C+:
Keldeo's STAB combo has proven itself to be really mediocre throughout the generation, but now that Tapu Fini is growing more and more in usage as of late is even worse of for Keldeo, as CM stated. And with the likes of Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur receiving more attention lately that's bad news for Keldeo as well. B- feels way too high for Keldeo and C+ feels surely more appropriate.

to UR:
Can we just send this to the shadow realm already? There's no reason to use Latios over Mega Latios with the exception of some weird ass lure sets that don't even actually get used and only work in theory but never in practice. Latios has a terrible STAB combination and forfeits the one thing Mega Latios uses to make up for the inability to break past Steel-types. People always theorymon about some Z-Thunder shit for Celesteela or Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, but you might as well run Mega Latios + Magnezone at that point. Literally every team should have a specially defensive Steel-type this metagame and guess what, regular Latios loses to all of them, no point in using this garbage, unranked please.

 

[Katy]

to A-:

Agree with a Zapdos rise. It is very consistent at what it is doing. It is a true Ground Resist again, since Zygarde is gone and no Thousand Arrows around anymore. Zapdos has seen an incredible usage at SPL too with having a lot of different sets and all of them put in work, Rocky Helemet + Static is just annoying to face and punishes U-Turn users incredible with either chipping them down or Paralyzing them or both. Defensive Zapdos always been a staple on stall teams and Zapdos profits from the rise of Celesteela, since it has a huge role in checking it and also Torn-T.

to B+:

I also agree on a rise of Jirachi. It offers so many different role compressions, with being on bulky teams and also on phat aka stall. Jirachi is consistent, Healing Wish is just simply amazing, giving another teammate of it a second life, Scarf is really good and with Mega Lati twins around and Mega Zam it really stands out as a potent check.

to B-:

Haven't seen this one inna while, Celesteela, Toxapex, Zapdos, Washtom don't make this things life easy, I think a drop is justified at this point.

to UR:

Latios should really be unranked, when I see in the VR the C- ranks, all of them have still some kind of niche, but this hasn't. It is very inconsistent and (Mega) Tars high usage makes this things life not easy. It cant break thru Tar even with Z Moves, since Assault Vest Tar has risen a lot in the usage as being a consistent and very bulky pkmn, which doesn't allow pkmn to get past it easily.
Latios suffers a lot from the metagame rn and honestly I see no reason to use this over it's Mega Form. Also it can't fit all the moves it wants to have to break thru Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Jirachi and the likes.