Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Honestly, if you'd nominated Gourgeist during the Zygarde meta, I would've gone for it - its access to WoW gave it a notable niche over the other bulky Grasses at that time, and I know there were a couple of stall teams that even ran Curse Geist to flex on SubStatus sets. I mean, at least it wasn't complete dead weight vs non-Zyg teams like Avalugg was, and that thing somehow got ranked, right? However, the loss of Zygarde unfortunately also meant the loss of any reason whatsoever to run it over Tangrowth, Amoonguss or Mega Venusaur.

... On which note, exactly why is Avalugg still ranked?
Yo what is your deal with the goat wall avalugg. It's attacks of ice/quake are unresisted, it's pretty strongly offensively and physically defensively amazing. On stall it's pretty good but even outside of that you can have a bulky, recovering hard hitter that can come in on kyublack's Z ice attack and shrug it off like a paper cut. Have you just not used it or you just haven't had success with it?
 
Is there a reason why Kartana is still in A tier? Just going based off of Usage Stats from the OU ladder, Its got the 7th highest usage in the 1500s, 4th highest in the 1695s and 5th in the 1825s. I'm pretty sure many have covered how great it is in the current metagame so I won't go much into that but I feel these facts are enough to really start considering it's climb to at least A+ tier
 

Leo

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Is there a reason why Kartana is still in A tier? Just going based off of Usage Stats from the OU ladder, Its got the 7th highest usage in the 1500s, 4th highest in the 1695s and 5th in the 1825s. I'm pretty sure many have covered how great it is in the current metagame so I won't go much into that but I feel these facts are enough to really start considering it's climb to at least A+ tier
No it’s not enough, ladder usage doesn’t directly correlate to viability ie. a top 5 used mon isn’t necessarily going to be S/A+ rank. Please only post in the thread if you have actual arguments in favor of a rise and leave these questions to PMs/SQSA
 
No it’s not enough, ladder usage doesn’t directly correlate to viability ie. a top 5 used mon isn’t necessarily going to be S/A+ rank. Please only post in the thread if you have actual arguments in favor of a rise and leave these questions to PMs/SQSA
True but there have already been enough arguments in favor of the rise like the rise in the popularity of the Scarf set and it's ability to destroy its counters with SD breakneck blitz. I was just pointing out it's high usage in the ladder rankings overall and not just in one specific rank. I really don't understand why we are arguing as I am stating mostly facts and not opinions
 
True but there have already been enough arguments in favor of the rise like the rise in the popularity of the Scarf set and it's ability to destroy its counters with SD breakneck blitz. I was just pointing out it's high usage in the ladder rankings overall and not just in one specific rank. I really don't understand why we are arguing as I am stating mostly facts and not opinions
SaveMeJebus, I understand that you may think Kartana is A+ material, I even agree. However, your logic is quite flawed. It's safe to assume that a pokemon popular in a competitive format tends to be good because its good (I'm talking to you Landorus), but its never 100% of what you go off when considering how good a pokemon ACTUALLY is. For example, mimikyu is OU by usage, but is only in the C rank, while reuniclus is a solid A- ranked pokemon, but isnt used as much being RUBL. A pokemon may be used a lot for many different reasons, such as being fun to use, so don't make assumptions about a pokemon solely based on the ladder.
 
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No it’s not enough, ladder usage doesn’t directly correlate to viability
I decided to run a quick stats analysis to investigate this claim. While it's true that ladder usage doesn't directly (in the statistical sense, i.e. 1 to 1) correlate to viability, the correlation is obviously there, and it is pretty high. My stats come from here - https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/gen7ou-1825.txt - as well as the top post of this thread. I took our VR list for OU and converted all the S ranks in to viability= 1 ranks, with each subsequent number representing a lower rank (A+ = 2, A = 3, etc.)

Screen Shot 2019-03-20 at 3.34.49 PM.png


As you can see highly Usage-ranked mons are also highly Viability-ranked. How closely? Using Spearman's rho, I found a correlation coefficient of 0.82 - which gives us a solid r-squared value of 0.67. This means that ~67% of the variance in viability rank is explained by usage (from a statistical standpoint). Clearly, it's not solely usage, but it does tell us that usage is the predominant indicator of viability.

Screen Shot 2019-03-20 at 3.43.38 PM.png


Anyway, my conclusion with all of this is that it's great to make observations about the ladder metagame (e.g. lower ranked mons like Jirachi and Skarmory are surprisingly common), but they should go hand in hand with qualitative arguments, and arguments about Tournament usage, etc. There are a lot of factors that we use to determine viability, and usage stats often get shit on in favor of the "well let me tell you what I think without any evidence" type of speculation about usage in this thread.

We all know that Kart can play around a huge portion of the meta. Breakneck Blitz can catch the flying types off guard, while Knock Off + Band sets have become a terrifyingly easy way to nuke Kart's checks on the switch when they try to scout. Seriously, Defensive Zapdos gets 2HKO'd after Rocks by Band Kart. Torn-T has a chance to get straight up OHKO'd by Smart Strike. And that's not to mention that mons like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Rotom-W are all super common and viable and that Kartana can absolutely tear them apart with the right set and prediction skills.

TL;DR - stats are cool, Kartana is good, I think there are good arguments for it to move up.
 

cityscapes

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As you can see highly Usage-ranked mons are also highly Viability-ranked. How closely? Using Spearman's rho, I found a correlation coefficient of 0.82 - which gives us a solid r-squared value of 0.67. This means that ~67% of the variance in viability rank is explained by usage (from a statistical standpoint). Clearly, it's not solely usage, but it does tell us that usage is the predominant indicator of viability.
the analysis you did was pretty cool but wouldn't it make more sense the other way around? by that i mean that 67% of the variance in ladder usage would be explained by viability. how viable a mon is definitely isn't explained by how often it's used, and tournament usage would probably be a better indicator of vr placement.

ladder usage and viability do have a pretty strong correlation, but usage definitely shouldn't be the sole argument used when determining whether or not a mon should move up. there are a lot of metagames where almost unviable pokemon receive regular use on the ladder, which doesn't really apply to tournaments where players are more likely to care about the meta and get informed about it. in the guy's posts, he literally only brought up usage as an argument, unless you count "sd breakneck blitz destroys its counters" which can be said for any offensive lure set in the game.

when it comes to kart i'm not too versed in the meta so i'll leave the discussion to others, but i would like to continue discussing stats in a different thread maybe.
 
the analysis you did was pretty cool but wouldn't it make more sense the other way around? by that i mean that 67% of the variance in ladder usage would be explained by viability. how viable a mon is definitely isn't explained by how often it's used, and tournament usage would probably be a better indicator of vr placement.

ladder usage and viability do have a pretty strong correlation, but usage definitely shouldn't be the sole argument used when determining whether or not a mon should move up. there are a lot of metagames where almost unviable pokemon receive regular use on the ladder, which doesn't really apply to tournaments where players are more likely to care about the meta and get informed about it. in the guy's posts, he literally only brought up usage as an argument, unless you count "sd breakneck blitz destroys its counters" which can be said for any offensive lure set in the game.

when it comes to kart i'm not too versed in the meta so i'll leave the discussion to others, but i would like to continue discussing stats in a different thread maybe.
I didn't really go much into detail on why it should rise since it was already brought up a few pages ago and it would be the same argument. I just wanted to bring up some information that I didn't see in the discussion for it to rise. Also, even going based off tournament usage has its flaws since players often run certain pokes or EV spreads to counter certain teams
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
Using Spearman's rho, I found a correlation coefficient of 0.82
FYI your correlation coefficient would be -0.82 since you put the S ranks as the lowest viability, 1.0, but that's just nitpicking; really cool analysis!

and tournament usage would probably be a better indicator of vr placement.
I thought this was a phenomenal idea and re-ran robofiends analysis with SPL Usage Stats. I got an R^2 of .48 and a correlation of -0.69 (I represented S rank with the lowest number; in reality viability is positively correlated with usage.

It may be surprising that the viability rankings are more strongly correlated with ladder usage than with tournament usage, but this makes perfect sense to me because the viability ranking often trails new developments in the tournament scene. For example, Fini has recently exploded in usage in tournaments, but the viability rankings haven't reflected this yet.

Here are the residuals, by the way. The left columns represents what SPL usage predicts the Pokemon's viability to be, and the right column shows how far away it is from the SPL Usage prediction. S Rank is 1, A+ is 2, A is 3, A- is 4, B+ is 5, etc. For example, Usage predicts Scizor to be at a rank of 4.06, and its true rank is 4, since it is in A- rank, so the residual is 4-4.06= -0.06

ObservationPredicted 1Residuals
Landorus-T
-2.04182​
3.041819​
Greninja
0.686346​
0.313654​
Magearna
1.465822​
-0.46582​
Toxapex
1.595735​
0.404265​
Tornadus-T
1.725647​
0.274353​
Heatran
1.85556​
-0.85556​
chomp
2.699992​
0.300008​
fini
2.829904​
2.170096​
ttar
2.829904​
0.170096​
kart
3.08973​
-0.08973​
rotom-w
3.154686​
-0.15469​
ferro
3.154686​
-1.15469​
bulu
3.414511​
-0.41451​
latias
3.479468​
-0.47947​
lele
3.544424​
-0.54442​
tang
3.60938​
0.39062​
rachi
3.739293​
2.260707​
zam
3.739293​
-1.73929​
drill
3.804249​
1.195751​
zap
3.804249​
1.195751​
celesteela
3.999118​
-0.99912​
maw
4.064074​
-2.06407​
clef
4.064074​
-0.06407​
koko
4.064074​
-1.06407​
sciz
4.064074​
-0.06407​
volcarona
4.258943​
-1.25894​
medi
4.3239​
-1.3239​
zard
4.388856​
0.611144​
glisc
4.388856​
-0.38886​
weav
4.453812​
1.546188​
peli
4.453812​
0.546188​
pert
4.453812​
0.546188​
serp
4.453812​
0.546188​
latios
4.518769​
0.481231​
zone
4.518769​
-1.51877​
chansey
4.583725​
-0.58372​
reuni
4.583725​
-0.58372​
kyub
4.648681​
-0.64868​
tini
4.713638​
1.286362​
kyu
4.778594​
2.221406​


There are 3 mons (besides landot, whose usage is so absurdly high but it cannot be higher than S rank anyway) whose SPL usage is dramatically higher than their viability; Fini, Jirachi, and Kyurem-N. I strongly believed the first two were overdue for rises regardless of data (I was discussing rising Jirachi on the VR in a discord chat just yesterday), but I think it's interesting the data does support this, given their explosion on the tournament scene.

Note that SPL data combines megas and formes together; this does affect Greninja's and TTar's analysis. Excluding Landorus-T from the analysis may also paint a better picture as it is a significant outlier. (Edit: realized I actually did accidentally exclude Lando-T from the regression lol thats why it predicts it to be at -2 cause i hardcoded it onto the table)

Edit: I think this graph also pretty strongly supports Leo 's assertion that usage is not totally correlated with viability; while there is a connection, there are other factors at play. For example, the data suggest mawile should be placed in A- rank, but Mawile is probably well placed in A/A+, not A-.

166383


too lazy to label axes sorry but x-axis is number of SPL uses and y is viability. no lando-T here, its predicted viability would be negative (where low viability is good, 1=S rank)
 
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Based on sed's post and Talah's post on the SPL X discussion, I can say that Mega Chomp, Mega Venusaur, Tapu Fini, Jirachi and Mega Gallade are probably getting a rise. I already exposed my throughs on Chomp, and I haven't tested Venu and Gallade yet, so I'm going to expose my opinions on Fini and Rachi instead:
File:Tapu Fini.png
I bet that all of you know of what Fini is capable of, and no other B+ mon is able of the same things (yet, she isn't capable of sweeping like Serp or Zard-X, or setting up hazards). Interestingly, is one of the few Defoggers with good matchup against stall thanks to the Nature's Madness + Taunt + Misty Terrain (the other "anti-stall" defogger I can think of is Pressure Zapdos, who heavily dislikes forgoing Heat Wave for Toxic/Substitute, and is crippled by Toxic). On the other hand, Koko's popularity and Gunk Shot Protean Gren being more common now is the Dolphin Clampfish (?) biggest issue in what trends are referred.
Jirachi
While is able to check Psychic Spam better than other Steels thanks to it's own Psychic typing and access to Wish, it's crippling weakness to Greninja (who is commonly paired to Psychic Types due to it's excellent luring capabilities) and Celesteela also being able to check Ground Types makes bulky Jirachi quite rare on playstyles other than Stall and Fat Balances. As a Choice Scarf user, however, it provides more momentum compared to it's fellow Steel Types, like the aformentioned Celesteela, SpD Heatran and Mega Scizor thanks to Healing Wish, outclassing Scarf Latias in that regard. Comparing Rachi to other Steels feels kinda unfair now, as the tiny Shooting Star has it own niche outside of being the obligatory Steel in a team.

I'll probably edit this to post more throughs on mons later, as now I haven't played as much as I did in February (Classes and Kingdom Hearts have really burned my time away, huh).
 
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I've been interested in seeing some stats like this for a while, there's a bit of a point missed, in that Pokemon will be used more often *because* it is high in the rankings,, with newer and intermediate players using this as a frame of reference for what to use.
Only players with a score of 1825 or higher will have their usage counted in the statistics that were posted.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Only players with a score of 1825 or higher will have their usage counted in the statistics that were posted.
I think it's almost mandatory to state, that as a person who lives in that part of the ladder, people's teams are usually damn near identical and it's gotten so braindead and meta slavery that Stef and I did a live and we ran into the exact same 3 teams 12 times. Usually it's 4 mons plus filler. thos does not mean that these mons are good btw. In aggregate, people are pretty stupid, even in high ladder. Stupid and lazy. Even according to game theory, the state we are in right now does not mean that these mons are the best or even most optimal. Saying otherwise is a dead point and mathematically just wrong and I will not entertain such foolishness. That being said " used more often *because* it is high in the rankings" also effects higher players as well. I've constantly stated that the mere existence of this provides a feedback loop but at this point it doesn't matter. Ladder and tournament are very different. Skipping the straight up cock sucking that is the tournament community, in tour play you face certain opponents and their teams are going to be different. In ladder your job is to prepare a team that wins a lot more than it loses -this also is why tour teams usually are absolute garbage on ladder. They'd like to think otherwise and think they are better, they are not and let's stop pretending that way.
sed any idea on how to use this thread to serve both tour and ladder equally? Because stuff like mega chomp and venu getting a rise because of tour is cool and all, but on ladder those mons are pretty terribly used, especially mega gallade. Because this meta has gotten so skewed, things are unilaterally context dependent, and we can't keep ignoring that.
 
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I'd like to keep the Jirachi hype train going: this thing belongs in B+.

More and more, I find this little punk to be an amazing teammate. Rocks, U-Turn, Wish, Body Slam, bulk, hax: Rachi has it all. Its Body Slam comes with a 60% para chance, making it the perfect lure to bring Landorus-T, Heatran, Greninja, Kartana, or Torn-T down to an awful speed level. Because so few of its checks resist BS Para + Iron Head, it almost always has a play that can advance a win condition: either you rock into a check, Wish into a check and then run and heal a teammate, Body Slam/Toxic to spread status, U-Turn if you got it, or just go for some IH flinches.

Jirachi's niche as a SpDef support mon has been widening for a while now. While it used to only see usage to counter Lele, people have found that it can do a lot of other things due to its good bulk. M-Latios has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO it from full with EQ. Prot Gren's HP Fire is a 3HKO. M-Zam's Shadow Ball is a 3HKO. Bulu cannot beat any of its sets, Celesteela 4HKO's with Flame, Pex can't Poison stall it (and hates Para), Ice-Z Kyu-B 4HKO's it.. The list of things it checks goes on and on, from M-Diancie to Torn-T to Chansey or Clefable. And keep in mind, each of these mons that it checks have to be wary on the swap to keep their teammate from taking paralysis. While Jirachi isn't a one-man show, still losing hard to Heatran, Ash-Gren, and Lando (among others), as a defensive stopgap it's very useful.

Despite the rise of Rotom-W, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, and Magnezone, Rachi is one of those mons that, like I said, has the move slots to play around. Toxic + Wish/Protect can annoy all of them - especially Magnezone who will get PP stalled. U-Turn lets it keep up momentum against unfavorable switch ins as well. And that's all just talking one set - scarf has its merits as well, including Trick, Healing Wish, and hax-based cleanup. Time to boost this man.
 

Fusion Flare

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I'd like to keep the Jirachi hype train going: this thing belongs in B+.

More and more, I find this little punk to be an amazing teammate. Rocks, U-Turn, Wish, Body Slam, bulk, hax: Rachi has it all. Its Body Slam comes with a 60% para chance, making it the perfect lure to bring Landorus-T, Heatran, Greninja, Kartana, or Torn-T down to an awful speed level. Because so few of its checks resist BS Para + Iron Head, it almost always has a play that can advance a win condition: either you rock into a check, Wish into a check and then run and heal a teammate, Body Slam/Toxic to spread status, U-Turn if you got it, or just go for some IH flinches.

Jirachi's niche as a SpDef support mon has been widening for a while now. While it used to only see usage to counter Lele, people have found that it can do a lot of other things due to its good bulk. M-Latios has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO it from full with EQ. Prot Gren's HP Fire is a 3HKO. M-Zam's Shadow Ball is a 3HKO. Bulu cannot beat any of its sets, Celesteela 4HKO's with Flame, Pex can't Poison stall it (and hates Para), Ice-Z Kyu-B 4HKO's it.. The list of things it checks goes on and on, from M-Diancie to Torn-T to Chansey or Clefable. And keep in mind, each of these mons that it checks have to be wary on the swap to keep their teammate from taking paralysis. While Jirachi isn't a one-man show, still losing hard to Heatran, Ash-Gren, and Lando (among others), as a defensive stopgap it's very useful.

Despite the rise of Rotom-W, Tapu Koko, Zapdos, and Magnezone, Rachi is one of those mons that, like I said, has the move slots to play around. Toxic + Wish/Protect can annoy all of them - especially Magnezone who will get PP stalled. U-Turn lets it keep up momentum against unfavorable switch ins as well. And that's all just talking one set - scarf has its merits as well, including Trick, Healing Wish, and hax-based cleanup. Time to boost this man.
I'm up for a Jirachi Rise myself. The thing can actually be impossible to switch into if you're slower(from said body slam)and then get flinched down by iron head. The amount of team support it brings to a table is phenomenal. Bulky Steel, Rocker, and a written but not limited to, Kyurem-B, M-Diancie, Bulu, Lele, Zam, and M-Lati check. This thing deserves better.
 
I'm up for a Jirachi Rise myself. The thing can actually be impossible to switch into if you're slower(from said body slam)and then get flinched down by iron head. The amount of team support it brings to a table is phenomenal. Bulky Steel, Rocker, and a written but not limited to, Kyurem-B, M-Diancie, Bulu, Lele, Zam, and M-Lati check. This thing deserves better.
I'm all up for this. I love jirachi as a mon that can switch into a lot of common threats (mawile, both latis, ect.) and has lots of reliable coverage with punch moves and TWO stab, hard hitting moves with boosted flinch chances. It can also be used in more creative ways, like chesto rest, band, scarf, or pretty much whatever you want, and it isn't as strong as Mmetagross, it feels like it can be a solid replacement for it, being more well rounded. Lets get Jirachi into B+.
 

spatula

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assertion that usage is not totally correlated with viability; while there is a connection, there are other factors at play. For example, the data suggest mawile should be placed in A- rank, but Mawile is probably well placed in A/A+, not A-.
There probably needs to be a separate subset for mega pokemon as since there's a limit of one mega per team, usage will naturally be lower (on average, unless there's an extreme outlier)
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I agree that jirachi should rise! Aside from having one of the best movies iirc, it is great for checking strong things like tapu lele, tapu bulu, tapu fini, some tapu koko, tapu fucku, and mega glalie. Wish support is great as always, and z-happy hour is nearly uncounterable when paired with something like alolan golem or mostly just flinch hax. Psychic spam is better lately, and jirachi (as a psychic type him/herself) is a psychic type and a 4x psychic resist. If you are extra skilled, then you can even run ancient power, which has a 20% chance of ruining your opponents parade while also luring volcarona, mega charizard, and landorus-t in certain circumstances. Don't underestimate the sleeping star, because everyone knows a dormant star is just a supernova waiting to happen!


Also this thread has been garbage for at least 2 pages and should be locked for the weekend/indefinitely tbh.
 
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Finchinator

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I agree that jirachi should rise! Aside from having one of the best movies iirc, it is great for checking strong things like tapu lele, tapu bulu, tapu fini, some tapu koko, serperior, and mega glalie. Wish support is great as always, and z-happy hour is nearly uncounterable when paired with something like alolan golem or mostly just flinch hax. Psychic spam is better, and jirachi (as a psychic type him/herself) is a psychic type and a 4x psychic resist. If you are extra skilled, then you can even run ancient power, which has a 20% chance of ruining your opponents parade while also luring volcarona, mega charizard, and landorus-t in certain circumstances.

Also this thread has been garbage for at least 2 pages and should be locked for the weekend tbh.
Man, you really spend a third of the paragraph on how Jirachi is a great check Tapu Koko (it is not) and Mega Glalie (???), a third of the paragraph on a Z-Happy Hour set that is universally regarded as a meme and has absolutely no breaking power even with the boost (hell, this set isn’t even a main set on the analysis — it just gets poorly oversold in the OO), and a third of the paragraph on checks notes Ancient Power Jirachi??? which doesn’t fit on any set at all and doesn’t even come close to doing enough damage to be worthwhile against 4x, especially considering proper teambuilding would render this unnecessary, thus making it a complete booost fish that just wastes turns otherwise. And THEN calls out every other poster and asks for the thread to be locked? That’s just not right man. I’m not locking the thread.

You either are trolling or just need to play the actual tier more at a decent level. To elaborate: Mega Glalie isn’t even ranked and it’s hardly used on the ladder or tournaments (one CTC team isn’t enough to warrant discussion until it’s at least ranked), Specs and CM Koko both can beat Jirachi for sure, Z Happy Hour has been used seriously once over the entire generation and it’s just not good or worth trying more after being tested out countless times with no positive results to show. Ancient Power is just outright bad in so many capacities. You have a pokemon that can’t even fit four moves easily enough to begin with now sacrificing another slot for a chance to 2HKO pokemon that you need to check defensively or OHKO before they sweep anyway. And if your justification is to get the boost, then I can’t really take it or you entirely seriously — sorry.

Jirachi SHOULD move up a bit, but not for your reasons at all. The SDef set is trending upward due to role compression and offering new team structure alternatives. The Scarf set is finally establishing itself as a nice speed control option that has both offensive and defensive utility on BO.

Lastly, I am not locking the thread as I would much rather deal with shitposters through infraction or simply deleting their posts seeing as things aren’t moving too quickly currently. Your post almost drove me to lock it, however.
 
How to make sure the thread does not get locked? Tell Finch to lock it.

S -> A+ ?

There is simply one argument for me to suggest this:
According to the last slate, Magearna became S because of [...] the recent results of the Shift Gear variant, proving to turn around or clean up a number of relevant tournament games in recent weeks [...] (source).
In the same update Jirachi became B.
Now I have seen lots of support for Jirachi becoming even B+ with which I agree with. If Jirachi becomes B+ which is partly exaplained by its increasing usage, offensive Magearna sets will have difficulties doing what it is known for and thus is an argument for Magearna dropping to A+.

Three arguments I would accept to let Magearna stay S
a) Jirachi becoming more viable allows you to neglect AV on Magearna more often than not, to go for the offensive route with Shift Gear or Trick Room.
b) Having an actual counter to Magearna (Jirachi) makes it less likely for the opponent to risk blocking Volt Switches with their Ground types earlygame, which might shift the viablity of AV to S but Shift Gear to A+
c) Magearna should have been S in the second to the last slate. This means, that recent tournament success of offensive Magearna just confirmed that Magearna deserves S but its viability is indepedent enough of those successes to stay S in the future.
 

Wolf

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How to make sure the thread does not get locked? Tell Finch to lock it.

S -> A+ ?

There is simply one argument for me to suggest this:
According to the last slate, Magearna became S because of [...] the recent results of the Shift Gear variant, proving to turn around or clean up a number of relevant tournament games in recent weeks [...] (source).
In the same update Jirachi became B.
Now I have seen lots of support for Jirachi becoming even B+ with which I agree with. If Jirachi becomes B+ which is partly exaplained by its increasing usage, offensive Magearna sets will have difficulties doing what it is known for and thus is an argument for Magearna dropping to A+.

Three arguments I would accept to let Magearna stay S
a) Jirachi becoming more viable allows you to neglect AV on Magearna more often than not, to go for the offensive route with Shift Gear or Trick Room.
b) Having an actual counter to Magearna (Jirachi) makes it less likely for the opponent to risk blocking Volt Switches with their Ground types earlygame, which might shift the viablity of AV to S but Shift Gear to A+
c) Magearna should have been S in the second to the last slate. This means, that recent tournament success of offensive Magearna just confirmed that Magearna deserves S but its viability is indepedent enough of those successes to stay S in the future.
(Srry for any languages mistakes).

This nom attracted my attention, for the only reason that I refuse to believe that people want to make Magearna +A.

Like we saw in the past (and robopoke, you're the one that created the shift gear+calm mind set or promoted it on ladder if im not mistaken), Magearna has the amazing ability to adapt himself to any meta or any playstyle. AV Mag was the first set that USUM offered to all players, with an astonishing capacity of pivoting and taking hits like a champion. Shift gear/calm mind was the second set that got a lot of usage for its way to clean offensive teams or anything weak to volt/beam in the late game. People started to use more Heatran and Ttar as a counter, and you know what? Shift gear+3 attacks (with z fight) was the answer.

Trick room had a boost thanks to magearna (bulk+typing+ shuca berry let him set up TR easily). We saw an increase usage of Chansey on bulky offense (which is absurd) to try to counter that little evil mon, and what happened? We got the best set in my opinion, which is the calm min/ pain split one, to use chansey as a set up fodder and anihilate any kind of stall/balance.

The "Jirachi is increasing in usage, magearna can't clean easily like it used to do" reasoning doesn't make sens in my opinion. Trust me, if Jirachi becomes a staple on every team, well see Magearna adapting himself to counter it (Id love to see the shift gear using z ghost lool). Im not against putting Jirachi on B+, but dont assume that Magearna needs to drop solemnly because of that. Right now, S rank its where she belongs (a wide variety of sets + staple on almost every team + capacity to adapt the set to any kind of utility "offensively or defensively" + good typing and ability, etc), so lets wait a little bit before trying to see if she deserves a drop or no.

Peace
 
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Katy

Banned deucer.
I disagree with a drop from S to A+, since Magearna is one of the most dangerous mons to face currently at OU

First off the straight versatility makes it one of the best of the best at the current OU metagame, the versatility and wide range of moves and viable sets it can run is straight up amazing by itself to keep it at S rank alongside with Heatran, Landorus-Therian and Ash greninja.
The versatility is just absurd: Shift Gear 3 Attacks Z move (Z wahetever u feel, it works anyways)
Calm Mind + Pain Split as a stallbreaker to be even able to 1v1 Chaneey and other specially defensive mons, which purpose it is to wall those threats.
Assault Vest with sol Volt Switch Momentum
And Shift Gear + CM still working on HOs like Koko Dual Screens and rarely Veil as a dangerous dual setup sweeper
And last but not least Lure Sets like Energy Ball to take care off gastrodon, mega swampert, etc (used in SPL 10 occosiaonally too and with success)
Magearna has also a good typing being steel and fairy which gets well roundedn up with amazing stats offensively and defensively.

I think Magearnas place at S rank is more than justified and I think it should stay S rank
 

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from B+ to A (or at least A-): Tapu Fini has seen a huge increase in usage lately. It is not only top 10 in SPL usage (8th), but it has practically been on every other team for the last month or so. This is justified, too. The metagame wants a wider pool of viable Defog users and Tapu Fini does not only fit into that mold, but it also does so while being a pretty practical defensive/utility presence. Misty Terrain has been underrated for a while now, but the fact that it allows for so many things to come in safely on Pokemon like Toxapex, Toxic Heatran, etc. is huge, especially in a metagame where balance and BO abusing things like Z Garchomp, Mega Mawile, and Kartana is quite common -- while not all of these can safely switch in on everything that can status them, it oftentimes makes a lot of situations, especially vs Toxapex, far more manageable. While Tapu Fini in itself is not a huge momentum generator, what it does for teams in the context of gameplay leads to more offensive openings than one might imagine. Couple this with the ability to be a counter to Ash Greninja and check to Heatran and I would say that Tapu Fini just is pretty solid and easy to fit rn. Also, it matches up well with most SR setters, which is a big plus I'd say. Tapu Fini is in no way B+ atm and should definitely rise.

from B to B+/A-: Jirachi is not quite as common or trendy as Tapu Fini, but it is still seeing a lot of usage rn and for good reason. Jirachi in itself is not necessarily the best metagame pick, but it enables a lot of different team archetypes to become consistent/viable. It can fulfill a similar role to that of Celesteela/Magearna with regards to countering Tapu Lele, soft checking Mega Alakazam, etc., but on top of this it can also do a number of other things. The utility that Jirachi provides is pretty great for some teams that make of use it -- Stealth Rock, Wish, Healing Wish, U-turn, etc. can all be found commonly on it. SDef and Scarf are both picking up a bit more as time elapses rn and I expect this to continue to be the case moving forward.

from A to A+: Bit more controversial than the last two perhaps, but Garchomp really has taken over the metagame over the last number of months. Specifically, the SR Z set is easily the most common Stealth Rock setter at the moment (Heatran is a bit more common, but it does not always carry SR whereas every Garchomp set has Stealth Rock). Honestly, the only viable Defog user that checks Z Rock Garchomp is Mega Latias, which barely even uses Defog. Garchomp is great right now and I view it as one of the Pokemon that defines bulky-offense and oftentimes finds itself on balance right now. Given this, I find it to fit more within the crowd of A+, being about as good as consistent threats that do not necessarily go off every game, but almost always are solid additions to teams (such as Tornadus-T and Mega Alakazam). You can honestly argue all three belong in the higher portion of A rank right now as they're still a bit below that of Mega Mawile, Toxapex, and probably Ferrothorn. However, I think that A+ including the group is a bit more fair given the otherwise expansive range A rank would find itself having.

from B+ to A-: I find Zapdos fitting onto a lot more teams currently, specifically as a pivot. I think that the 3A set and the Defog set are both fine currently. More people are using Volt Switch and Static nowadays, both of which are cool. Zapdos has a couple options as we know, but I just think that the metagame is expanding a bit in terms of Defogger viability, which I touched on above with Fini, and part of this also gives Zapdos a bit more viability. I'm the least convinced on this one of all of my nominations, but I just think it's better than everything currently in B+ besides Tapu Fini. I also think it's just as good as other utility presences such as Mega Scizor and Clefable, which obviously fulfill vastly different roles, but are taking hits in usage while remaining A-. Therefore, a Zapdos rise feels appropriate.
 

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It's really late, but I was looking over the VR while building and noticed that Mega Chomp was ranked at C for some reason??? Mega Garchomp is fucking fantastic right now, being an effective breaker that can lure in traditional Garchomp checks like Celesteela, Rotom,, and Landorus-T while still being a solid rocker and potent offensive threat. The best/most common set right now is rocks 3 attacks mixed, being great at breaking down steela/pex/heatran type balance teams that seem to be solid right now. Additionally, Mega Garchomp obviously performs well against more offensive teams, being able to come in and threaten out mons like Magearna and Heatran that are so good right now. I think that the metagame's generally balanced/bulkier state right now is favorable to Mega Garchomp, but its meteoric rise in viability can more accurately be attributed to people realizing that it's good more than anything drastic changing to improve it. Obviously, Mega Garchomp faces heavy competition with regular Garchomp as a breaker and isn't always worth giving up your mega slot for, but it's one of the best breakers in the tier right now and is deserving of a large jump. I would probably move it from like C rank all the way up to like B/B+ rank with how good it is, as I think it's just as good a breaker if not better than stuff like Hoopa, Mega Hera, Victini, etc.
 
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Kommo-o should really move up to at least c+ rank as -
  • The increasing prevalence of steel types like heatran, magnezone, kartana and ferrothorn would make it’s stab close combat very useful and make it very viable in the present meta.
  • When paired with its z stone kommonium z kommo-o becomes a force to be reckoned with. It’s z move clangorous soulblaze gives it a +1 boost in all stats allowing it to outspeed mega alakazam, ash-greninja, tapu koko etc.
  • Apart from steel types it is also an effective counter to garchomp, ash-greninja, mega tyranitar, mega gyarados etc after getting its z move boosts.
  • But it will face a tough time if Pokemon like tapu koko, tapu Lele and mega medicham face it before it uses its z move. And Pokemon like clefable and magearna will also prevent it from using its z move without which kommo-o is a pretty weak Pokemon. Well this is my first post so I hope u ppl shall treat me well. And pls point out any mistakes I have made.
 
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