Wow. People must run really shitty stall teams on 1825 ladder if they wanna use a Steel that cant even check Magearna, Mega Alakazam, and Lele.
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
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There are so many reasons to call Skarmory bad, but this is far from one of them. Chansey pretty much blanket covers the first two (hint: Chansey is on legitimately every stall team rn) and Lele has a way of handling every non-Jirachi/Celesteela/Magearna Steel -- neither of the three are stall staples, btw.
I think this thread is best off with people discussing things that are not Skarmory. There have been a number of strong, convincing posts. However, they have been outnumbered by impractical or outright wrong observations being used to argue either side. Let's focus on more relevant nominations.
hint: eo ut mortus
but yeah skarmory really isn't meant to check any of those on stall. even eo's unorthodox team has a delphox to take care of them and a mega aggron which can help too!
I agree that Skarm isn't an unviable mon, but if there will ever be a time for unranking Skarm it will be now. It's a terrible Spiker in a hazard stacking meta, it's the only Steel that can't take abuse from the tier's Psychic-types, it's ultra passive and walling super specific things like unboosted MegaTar and non-Rockium Lando when Rockium Lando is losing ground to Chomp in its own right (I guess there's Adamant) hardly constitutes a useable niche.Even with Lando being super pressured in that replay it was still capable of beating Skarm at any point; it was never truly walled, Tricking just played his Skarm really well.
The only thing Skarm has over Steela is Roost, and even if Steela did learn Roost it is arguably better suited to run Leech Seed because it's able to chip switch-ins has the SpD and coverage to deal with Grass-types that Skarm lacks.
Edit: Sniped before my post, sorry Finchinator
Windingsss After seeing how your post got pretty much ripped apart (and rightfully so) I just wanted to say that you should not get discouraged by it and might want to retry Mega Alakazam after what you learned about it! Also I wanted to add something else to why Mega Alakazam is so good. (Sorry to the others as I guess, enough points were made and this isn't really the place to write this but I belive he deserves another answer as he seems pretty new). So as mentioned Mega Alakazam has the ability to outspeed the entire Metagame (bar scarfers) and threatens many offensive mons out (giving it opportunities to Recover). Its ability Trace really helps it to do amazing things like: abusing Tornadus', Tangrowths & Toxapexes Regenerator ability, revenge traping Magnezone, helping out against Mega Swampert in Rain and Excadrill in Sand, copying Intimidates from the OU king himself, being a switchin to Heatran and Mega Latios due to Flash Fire/Levitate , being able to steamroll if you get to snatch a boost from the chipped Steel Types you mentioned, copying Natural Cure from Chansey which kinda lets you 1v1 it, etc etc. And yes Alakazam is usually played with something that weakens the steel types for it, especially Lele which gives you also an insanely strong Psychic and an immunity to the mentioned priority attacks!I recommend lowering Alakazam-Mega from A+ to B-/B+.
We know that Alakazam-Mega is a powerful pokémon, with an extensive moveset and that allows him to strike Ghost or Dark type pokemon. It also has access to recovery and if desired, can be used with calm mind to make it much better. It has exaggeratedly high statistics like its special attack and speed, with 175 and 150 each. But it also has defects, such as, for example, that it is fragile on the physical side and also something fragile on the special side.
His moveset is usually 4 moves, but, as I said before, you can use calm mind or recovery, although this limits his abilities as an attacker, leaving him with 3 moves or 2 if you use the two mentioned above.
Alakazam-Mega's problems are varied, such as priority movements, of which there are many in OU: Scizor-Mega's Bullet Punch, Lopunny-Mega's Fake Out, Medicham-Mega's Fake Out and Mawile-Mega's Sucker Punch.
Another of their problems are the Pursuit users, like Tyranitar and Weavile. If Alakazam does not wear Focus Blast, he will be forced to change and the opponent will be able to predict with Pursuit.
Chansey is particularly one of his biggest problems, because she can resist Alakazam's movements and use Toxic or Seismic Toss.
Scarf users can also be a problem for Alakazam, such as Kartana, Landorus-T (which even without being scarf can resist an Alakazam hit and use Earthquake, calc below) and Greninja. Which can use attacks like Leaf Blade, Knock Off, Dark Pulse, Earthquake, among other moves that will do a lot of damage to Alakazam if they don't weaken him.
And finally, steel type Pokemon, because there are several steel type Pokemon that can resist a Focus Blast and return the hit. Celesteela, for example, resists the hit and can annoy Alakazam with Leech Seed or hit him with Heavy Slam (which weakens him, calc below), Jirachi can use Iron Head, Magearna can use Shift Gear and return the blows with Fleur Cannon or other moves and Scizor-Mega can use Pursuit or U-Turn.
Calcs:
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 267-315 (106.3 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 249-294 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 222-262 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 131-155 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 184-217 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 119-141 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 12.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 118-139 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 145-171 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 223-264 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 130-154 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 161-190 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 408-480 (162.5 - 191.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 171-202 (64.7 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 391-462 (155.7 - 184%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Jirachi: 124-146 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 121-144 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
In conclusion, I think Alakazam-Mega is in a very high position in the Viability Ranking when it's not really that good.
The SG + CM Set can 2hko Chansey with Focus Blast after rocks at +2, Magearns's CM+ PS set is literaly made to abuse Chansey, and Chansey doesn't like a Knock Off from Mega Zam, but besides that, ig i didnt make too much of an argument :(
Thing here is that in the context of a "does Celesteela outclass skarmory" discussion, naming a handful sets on some Pokemon that neither of these discussed pokemon can switch into, but which deal with skarmory's most common partner isn't bringing any side any further.
Unless you're saying you like using Celesteela as your cm split mage(runs tbolt) or Knock Off Megazam (duh) answer.
Nominating
Ditto for a return to C+ up from its current ranking at C
Ditto's drop to C in late October was explained by the following:
Ditto's drop to C in late October was explained by the following:
Ditto hasn't been mentioned once in this thread since October's VR slate, and yet since then there are numerous OU viable builds running around with Ditto performing well on each of them. Charmflash's use of it in SPL helped put it back in the spotlight by proving its viability outside of stray/niche stall builds. His thought process behind using it in SPL is more than enough imo to bump Ditto back to C+
I feel like Ditto does a good job, but not a great job at the points mentioned above. First of all, most top level players know how to deal with Ditto and won't mindlessly boost until ditto is KOed or crippled.
Second of all, Its low HP can put it in situations in which it can get KOed by the opponent before it can KO the opponent's Poke.
Lastly (and probably the most frustrating), Copying a Poke that is also holding a scarf leaves you in a 50/50 situation with a Poke that is supposed to be the team's revenge killer/reset button. Another small thing to mention is that it doesn't copy boosts that you get from unnburden which makes it useless against Hawlucha.
Then again, I don't feel there's a huge difference between C and C+ so it can rise or stay for all I care.
Edit: A discription explaining the differences in rank would be great
Second of all, Its low HP can put it in situations in which it can get KOed by the opponent before it can KO the opponent's Poke.
Lastly (and probably the most frustrating), Copying a Poke that is also holding a scarf leaves you in a 50/50 situation with a Poke that is supposed to be the team's revenge killer/reset button. Another small thing to mention is that it doesn't copy boosts that you get from unnburden which makes it useless against Hawlucha.
Then again, I don't feel there's a huge difference between C and C+ so it can rise or stay for all I care.
Edit: A discription explaining the differences in rank would be great
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this still works in ditto's favor though because it straight up prevents the mon from setting up as long as ditto is in the back. no other revenge killer has this trait and even against competent players it gives you an advantage.
we know this and it's incredibly nonspecific. a good rule of thumb when making these posts is to think about mons in the context of when ur building a team. would you say "nah, i won't add ditto to my team because of its low hp stat"? no, you'd say "i won't add ditto because due to its low hp, it struggles to check ash gren which is really good rn and a big threat for me". you can keep adding more layers by asking "what does this mean for the mon", like the following:
layer 0: ditto has a low hp stat
layer 1: ditto's low hp stat makes it frailer than other mons, so it's often less bulky than the mon it is transformed into, plus it must use choice scarf and is slower than unburden
layer 2: ditto's frailty and lack of unburden boost means it can often lose 1v1 to offensive mons it transforms into
layer 3: specific mons that take advantage of ditto's low hp stat and lack of item, such as ash gren and hawlucha, are commonly used, which is bad for it
layer 4: ditto teams are forced to use solid answers to mons like ash gren and lucha such as x, y, and z, which is bad because it restricts teambuilding, plus x, y, and z synergize poorly with ditto for the following reasons
layer 5: ditto overall restricts teambuilding for the reasons outlined above, and it doesn't provide great utility to the teams it must be used on for reasons a, b, and c, so it's not a good mon
besides looking like one of those dumb increasingly verbose memes, continually asking "so what?" brings you from basic game mechanics to advanced metagame insight. this is one of the parts of making a good vr post, the other being good knowledge of the meta (what mons/sets/teams are good, why they are good) and the game (x mon/set/team's matchup against y mon/set/team). if you have both, your post will be more likely to convince people of your argument.
lyd sucks
Diophantine
Banned deucer.
Consider what Ditto is good against (and yes I'm just paraphrasing Charmflash).
Offensive teams (which everyone seems to be most familiar with): Ditto is one of the biggest punishers to set up sweepers and can snowball its way through teams by copying a non-Choice Scarf Kartana, Blacephalon, whatever it may be. Even general hard hitting megas like Medicham (or Gallade as we've seen in Talah vs Charmflash for SPL) are great to copy. What's not to like about an extra mega? Granted, things like Hawlucha or Greninja being copied is not ideal, but if your team doesn't have another way of dealing with these things then it's just a bad team.
Magnezone Trapping teams: IV your Dittos to get HP Ground because this allows you to trap Magnezone for your own, let's say, Skarmory
.
These sorts of teams also usually rely on some sort of sweeper which Ditto can take advantage of.
Stall: Infinite PP is an incredibly useful trait that Ditto has which allows it to out-stall stall. Furthermore, it doesn't have to worry about being chipped because everything it copies has some sort of recovery option. Throw this into a Knock Off from like a Sableye and it's even better. So long as you don't do anything silly, Ditto should give you a really good advantage vs stall.
Now let me consider some counter-arguments.
"Ditto has low HP". So what? What does that mean for your mathcup against offence? That you can't switch it in? So what, that's not how Ditto should be intended to be used. Against stall, again, so what? You get infinite PP and nothing can hit you hard enough to care about having a low HP stat.
"Copying a Poke that is also holding a scarf leaves you in a 50/50 situation with a Poke that is supposed to be the team's revenge killer/reset button." If something is locked into a move by Choice Scarf, it is generally able to be taken advantage of. Say Kartana is Leaf Blading through your team. You can revenge it with Ditto copying Sacred Sword. Suppose it's locked into Sword. Well just go to your Pokemon which takes advantage of this - if you don't have one, then your team is most likely pretty bad.
In the counter arguments that I seem to hear about Ditto, they are all quite irrelevant when you consider what you actually use Ditto for.
Seriously guys watch your FalseSwipeGaming videos and we may have better discussions.
Offensive teams (which everyone seems to be most familiar with): Ditto is one of the biggest punishers to set up sweepers and can snowball its way through teams by copying a non-Choice Scarf Kartana, Blacephalon, whatever it may be. Even general hard hitting megas like Medicham (or Gallade as we've seen in Talah vs Charmflash for SPL) are great to copy. What's not to like about an extra mega? Granted, things like Hawlucha or Greninja being copied is not ideal, but if your team doesn't have another way of dealing with these things then it's just a bad team.
Magnezone Trapping teams: IV your Dittos to get HP Ground because this allows you to trap Magnezone for your own, let's say, Skarmory
.These sorts of teams also usually rely on some sort of sweeper which Ditto can take advantage of.
Stall: Infinite PP is an incredibly useful trait that Ditto has which allows it to out-stall stall. Furthermore, it doesn't have to worry about being chipped because everything it copies has some sort of recovery option. Throw this into a Knock Off from like a Sableye and it's even better. So long as you don't do anything silly, Ditto should give you a really good advantage vs stall.
Now let me consider some counter-arguments.
"Ditto has low HP". So what? What does that mean for your mathcup against offence? That you can't switch it in? So what, that's not how Ditto should be intended to be used. Against stall, again, so what? You get infinite PP and nothing can hit you hard enough to care about having a low HP stat.
"Copying a Poke that is also holding a scarf leaves you in a 50/50 situation with a Poke that is supposed to be the team's revenge killer/reset button." If something is locked into a move by Choice Scarf, it is generally able to be taken advantage of. Say Kartana is Leaf Blading through your team. You can revenge it with Ditto copying Sacred Sword. Suppose it's locked into Sword. Well just go to your Pokemon which takes advantage of this - if you don't have one, then your team is most likely pretty bad.
In the counter arguments that I seem to hear about Ditto, they are all quite irrelevant when you consider what you actually use Ditto for.
Seriously guys watch your FalseSwipeGaming videos and we may have better discussions.
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The main arguments for Skarmory to stay ranked is because of its good physically defensive capabilities as well as its access to Spikes. Leftover/Helmet sets are still really good against the majority of physical attackers in the tier even if they are complete Magnezone bait, Magnezone is only one Pokemon and it has historically been used to specifically target Skarmory. Despite Magnezone having plenty of other targets nowadays it still shouldnt be considered as complete invalidation of those sets as there are plenty of downsides to using it, it is a very machupy Pokemon in SM OU which I think its low usage in SPL showcases pretty well.
Non-Spikes sets are despite falling out of flavor still a very valid option on Stall teams as it can check an extraordinarily wide variety of physical attacker and that fact will remain unchanged no matter what the meta looks like. On non-Stall it is a decent alternative to Ferrothorn (to cover different threats, reliable recovery) as a Spikes user, which are and will always be very relevant.
Currently I think Skarmory should hover around B-/C+ due to its reliability to check those physical attackers and useful supporting movepool
The thing is that Ditto is supposed to be your Revenge killer for those types of builds. It's not like your team is gonna have an answer for scarf Blacepheon/Kart and not the Banded/Specs variants and once you start taking beast boost into account, the difference in power doesn't really matter anymore. Also, the problems becomes more apparent in the end game when all your checks and counters to these Pokes have been weakened
I feel the main argument for it rising is the jump itself. C to C+ is definitely not that huge and even with all the points I mentioned, a 50/50 against a Poke that would otherwise sweep your team is more than you can ask for especially from a C/C+ Poke
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Diophantine
Banned deucer.
You should really be asking yourself why your USUM OU team doesn't have any counter-play to something as common as a Kartana outside of letting something die and then sending out something faster.
As for "Also, the problems becomes more apparent in the end game when all your checks and counters to these Pokes have been weakened", just don't let them get weakened then lol
That's where the term revenge killer comes from and in gen 7, there are way too many common powerful Pokes to wall. Counterplay to most hyper offensive teams often times involves sacking a poke and revenge killing not to mention the fact that having ditto in your team takes up a slot that can be used on a poke with better offensive or defensive coverage
Yeah but you're absolutely prioritizing some threats above others rather than just saying, "fuck it" and slapping on a Ditto to check or 50/50 every boosting sweeper and scarfer in the meta solo. That's certainly possible for Ditto on paper, but not it's sole role and there certainly shouldn't be an expectation for it to do so unassisted without proper team structure.
sorry it's gonna be short but, is your usual scarf landorus revenge killing fast threats such as kartana, blacephalon or else? no it isn't, so the arguement "it doesn't revenge kill opposing scarfer" is kinda wack tbh since ditto is better than the most popular scarf user at revenge killing scarf user.
Moreover ditto utility isn't limited at revenge killing like you make it sounds, and I won't re-explain this since I has already be explain at least once, maybe twice before in this thread.
Also, yes OFTENTIMES (you said it yourself) you need to sacrifice things and revenge kill against HO, but:
- It depends on the match up and what you are running, so it's up to your building ability to not make your ditto team have issue against common scarfer and it's not really hard.
- it's only oftentimes, which means it's about special cases implying it doesn't reflect at all the viability of any pokémon that might get involves in such cases.
Last but not least, it's not rare to switch in more easily on a scarf variant of a said pokemon, since specs allow some more 2hkos. And if you can't switch into blacephalon, it means it get no beast boost so "once you start taking beast boost into account, the difference in power doesn't really matter anymore " is true but if you have a switch in boost never start so...
Moreover ditto utility isn't limited at revenge killing like you make it sounds, and I won't re-explain this since I has already be explain at least once, maybe twice before in this thread.
Also, yes OFTENTIMES (you said it yourself) you need to sacrifice things and revenge kill against HO, but:
- It depends on the match up and what you are running, so it's up to your building ability to not make your ditto team have issue against common scarfer and it's not really hard.
- it's only oftentimes, which means it's about special cases implying it doesn't reflect at all the viability of any pokémon that might get involves in such cases.
Last but not least, it's not rare to switch in more easily on a scarf variant of a said pokemon, since specs allow some more 2hkos. And if you can't switch into blacephalon, it means it get no beast boost so "once you start taking beast boost into account, the difference in power doesn't really matter anymore " is true but if you have a switch in boost never start so...
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
Tapu Fini: B+ --> A/A-
I think Tapu Fini should move up because it simply brings so much utility to the table, especially for bulky offense/balance builds.
- It is able to blanket check a lot of threats thanks to its great typing, including Ash-Greninja/Heatran, two very potent forces in the metagame.
- It's a Defog user that beats or pressures most hazard setters, besides Ferrothorn.
- It is the only* Ash-Greninja answer that can Defog away Spikes for itself. Thus, you avoid 50/50s of "do I stay in and risk Ash, or do I go to my wall and risk Spikes" every time Greninja threatens to get a kill, unlike every other answer. (*Technically Mantine/Hydreigon/Mega Altaria fit this description too, but they're way more niche)
- Misty Terrain preventing status is obviously great support for mons like eg. Volcarona/Charizard X, so they can safely setup on Zapdos, or Mega Mawile so it can safely setup on Sableye.
- Lastly, for such a defensive mon it is able to pressure fat builds really well. Taunt+NM shuts down a lot of walls like Toxapex, Chansey, etc. and you can prevent recovery from checks like Ferrothorn/Venusaur if you get the Taunt mindgames right. Sometimes when I play stall and they have a Fini, I decide "eh don't wanna deal with this" and exchange 50% on my Sableye just so I can knock it turn 1.
I’d like to start off by saying thanks to Finchinator for running this thread in the past. I’ve compiled the slate and the VR council is currently voting, expect an update sometime during the next week!
Alright, here's the update! Big slate with a good number of changes. Full slate
Rises
Garchomp from A to A+: Garchomp has become a dominant force in the metagame. Its Rockium Z set is both common and effective and currently checked by very few Defoggers. As an archetype-defining Pokemon, it's no surprise to see it now in A+ among other such staples.
Kartana from A to A+: Kartana is another staple of offense that saw consistently high usage throughout SPL. Its sets are all effective, and especially with the surge of Normalium Z, a rise to A+ is no surprise.
Excadrill from B+ to A-: Excadrill has been popping up more frequently lately. In part, this is due to a place on some hyper offensive teams as a lead. However, a more distinguished role that it has assumed is one of sweeper on Sand teams, which are slowly increasing in popularity. Excadrill is a threatening presence in the metagame with the right support at its side.
Pelipper and Swampert from B+ to A-: Pelipper and Swampert are staples on rain, an archetype which has shown dominance on the ladder and has been successful in recent tours, notably in the SPL tiebreak game. Rain saw decent usage throughout the tournament as a whole, so Pelipper and Swampert, the core two mons of rain, are being risen to represent its effectiveness in tour play and on the ladder.
Tapu Fini from B+ to A: Heavy usage reflects that Tapu Fini is one of the most useful Defoggers right now, especially as it counters or checks other top mons like Ash-Greninja and Heatran well. Misty Terrain utility is becoming more relevant to enable Burn- and Toxic-free switch-ins against defensive Pokemon. All in all, Fini is deserving of its double rise to A.
Zapdos from B+ to A-: Zapdos has been up-and-down throughout the generation. While it is not quite at its peak from a while back, Zapdos is popping up more and more lately. On stall, it is still close to staple status. On balance, the Static variants have been increasingly common and it is a nice check to Grass types and Tornadus-T, which is very welcome right now.
Jirachi from B to B+: Jirachi's support is valuable on teams right now, whether it be as a solid Scarfer or through providing Rocks and Wishes. Pairing well with another rising star in Tapu Fini, it saw solid usage in SPL X, and its effectiveness warrants a rise up to B+.
Kyurem from B- to B: Kyurem has been slowly rising in viability for a while now. It is still a far from the land of A rank, but it settles nicely in B where it fits with other niche options that threaten numerous common structures but have clear drawbacks or require noteworthy support elements which are not always easy to fit. Kyurem is not a consistent option necessarily, but it is an appealing one in some settings.
Gallade-Mega from C to B-: Gallade has more freedom to break balance with more Clefables choosing to run SpDef and the popularity of exploitable cores like CelePex. Its appearances during SPL reflect its potential as a breaker in the current meta.
Garchomp-Mega from C to B-: Extremely good lure with the rise of regular chomp and effective outside of that. Solid rocker that can be destructive to common defensive cores, definitely better than anything in C at the moment.
Drops
Gyarados from B+ to B: Gyarados has been free falling for a while now. It is virtually nonexistent, so it dropped a bit once more.
Blacephalon from B to C+: Blacephalon has been a nice win condition for a while, but it is very inconsistent and players are starting to notice that more as time elapses. Expect it to remain around here with other inconsistent, niche options.
Pinsir-Mega from B to B-: When Zapdos rises and Rotom-W and Celesteela are very common, Pinsir suffers. Wasn't used in SPL once, pretty simple drop.
Keldeo from B- to C+: Already struggling and becomes even more mediocre in the presence of greatly increase Fini usage.
Mega Manectric from C to C-: "Mega Manectric is bad and people should stop using it." - Finchinator
Qwilfish from C to UR: While rain has risen, Qwilfish has not. It hasn't been seen since Vertex has - RIP
Latios from C- to UR: Latios is also irrelevant in a meta where most teams have multiple Steel-types able to handle it easily.
No discussion slate this time - have at it!
Rises
Drops
No discussion slate this time - have at it!
Marigold
formerly KuraiTenshi26
Victini B -> B+
A surprisingly sleeper pick for whatever reason, Victini is one of the most anti-meta sweepers at the moment and also offers a good amount for teambuilding check compression.
Why should it rise?
Victini circumvents almost every conventional OU fire resist on common builds these days with the z-celebrate searing shot + stored power + focus blast set either immediately or after a slight amount of chip. Spdef Toxapex is always ohko'd by stored power after rocks. Fini is 2hko'd by stored power from full and can only 3hko back, physdef Rotom-Wash takes 76-90 from stored power, Mega TTar and non-vest TTar are ohko'd by focus blast, offensive Garchomp takes 78-92 from stored power, offensive Heatran is ohko'd by focus blast while spdef fails to meaningfully damage Victini outside of toxic. Greninja and Keldeo are blown away by appropriate coverage, the only water resist that takes z-celebrate Victini properly is Slowbro... which can lose to scarf or band's bolt strike after any chip. This is not a lot of work required to make successful unlike the other popular fire sweeper, Volcarona, and Victini can still usually muscle through a check forcefully if needed courtesy of +1 +1 bulk.
On top of that, it has a good matchup vs the two most common scarfers. Scarf Lando is outsped and takes 77-91 from searing shot, while Kartana's scarfed Knock Off is a 3hko.
It's not like Victini is some super frail "just hit it 4head" type of sweeper either. Its typing and good bulk is really advantageous vs common fat grasses like Bulu/Tang/Ferro, but also on bulky steel types like Magearna, Jirachi, and ironically enough Heatran. Fairies like Twave-less Clef and Lele are also setup opportunities as well.
We all know what Victini does, I'm sure. But everything I described above is especially valuable in the current meta when looking at popular builds. Seriously, look at the sample teams for example. Obviously outside of rain and the chansey matchup (though that's nothing that can't get lured), it can basically 6-0 when given the turn.
In short, Victini is anti-meta, threatening, consistent, and useful to the point that it is more viable than offensive pokemon like Kingdra or Mamoswine in B, and at least as viable as Charizard-X and Serperior in B+, or even Reuniclus in A-. Rise to B+ or higher.
Katy
Banned deucer.
From B to B+
With the Usage of Fini and also Koko so high and also the fact, that Zygarde is gone I think this pokemon deserves a small rise into the B+ rankings.
It's currently one of the best answers to Fini and Koko as it resists both of its STABs and it sees a lot more usage lately.
I used it a lot laqtely and I think the all around bulk and the versatility it has and how it can pressure teams is really realiable. Mega Venusaur is consistent as an answer to Fini, Koko and can even help to check the increased Rain teams as neither Mega Pert nor Ash-Greninja can OHKO it.
Mega Venusaur stands out to me as a nice pick currently as its typing allows it to hit a good chunk of pkmns at least neutral....even Heatran can get hit by an Earthquake Variant.
It also profits from longevity such as Leech Seed and Synthesis and can do its job just fine.
I think this mon is in a better spot right now and should rise 1 SubRank.
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This is the set:
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 68 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]
MVenu Revamp said:
1. I really find it a bit difficult to justify using Mega Venusaur over a more consistent Grass-types (mainly Amoonguss) that can check the most common Water-type
Even if Mega Venusaur can wall non-Steelium Z Magearna, non-Iron Head Mega Mawile, Tapu Koko (L for Brave Bird), Tapu Fini, and a bunch of threats, I find it really annoying that this Grass-types struggles with Greninja. It basically forces me to run another mon in order to cover Ash-Greninja and that one is mainly why I prefer the other Grass-types.
Amoonguss can regenerate health just by switching out, has the same typing, can check the same stuff (just not as reliably), doesn't lose to Ash-Greninja, can fit in a Grass-type move, and has both Spore and Stun Spore. I also don't need to use my Mega slot when using Amoonguss, which gives me more options when building.MVenu Revamp said:
2. Its inconsistent recovery methods
Synthesis + Leech Seed provides MVenu with decent recovery, but when you factor in PP and the fact that, like GMars said, Rain and Sand are rising in popularity, so Synthesis is a horrible recovery method, which is also why this is actually untrue.
Basically, you're heavily relying on Leech Seed recovery, which isn't that consistent, especially on ladder, where you see Substitute on random mons, and then you've just given the oppo a free turn. You can't even get the help of Leftovers like that of Amoonguss and Ferrothorn.
3. 4-moveslot syndrome
Since we must have Synthesis + Leech so we can always keep healthy, you have 2 free moveslots. That gives you Sludge Bomb + HP Fire for the main set: Sludge Bomb for the Fairy-types and HP Fire for the Steel-types it checks (Mage, MMaw, Kart). When you put this into the set, that means you're a Grass-type that can't touch Rock-, Ground-, and Water-types. You allow stuff like Mega Pert, Tyranitar, and LandoT beat you. Unlike Amoonguss, you can't even punish them with Stun Spore / Spore (if you ever decide not to run Giga Drain on Amoonguss
), since you won't have enough moves for Sleep Powder. Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb means you get walled by Steel-types, HP Fire + Giga Drain means you invite in Tornadus-T and allow Fairy-types to actually be able to potentially 1v1 you, while putting EQ over something just puts you in any of the above situations. 0- Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (2HKO w/out SR)
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (6.3% w/out SR)
By running -Speed and 16 Speed EVs, you still get outrun by uninvested MScizor and 196 Speed Mega Mawile if no EVs. I'd always scout for EQ on Venu though, esp if I'm on the ladder and I see if the team is quite weak to Heatran
Mega Venusaur is definitely a really nice pick, but I think B rank is really just enough to show that its a good check to many things but tends to get easily overwhelmed.
E: Seems the calc doesn't calc in Thick Fat
E2: it also seems I imported the wrong set
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Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Never in a thousand years did I think I would see the day where Garchomp would be called "outclassed" and "not worth using" in OU...
OUR BOY IN BLUE IS BACK. EAT SHIT ZYTRASH
ONLY TO RISE STRAIGHT BACK UP AND RECLAIM HIS THRONERises
Garchomp from A to A+: Garchomp has become a dominant force in the metagame. Its Rockium Z set is both common and effective and currently checked by very few Defoggers. As an archetype-defining Pokemon, it's no surprise to see it now in A+ among other such staples.
OUR BOY IN BLUE IS BACK. EAT SHIT ZYTRASH
- Status