Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)

[StiltOwl]

Bye bye bastard fish

Some immediate thoughts on the starters, now the HA's are out

• as Martin said above, Libero Cinderace is gonna destroy stuff. Interesting now that it can take Clef down a peg or two. Trying to think what are solid defensive answers. Hippo makes sense, I feel Max Def Gastrodon could, but haven't run calcs.
  • Speaking of Gastro, I feel now that the Vish isn't about, it's going to rise to be the premier Ground/Water for a team due to being better than Toad in every way that isn't rocks
• Super excited to try out Rilaboom. Rilla and Hawlucha are gonna make a brilliant offensive core. Choice band seems like the way to go, even U-Turn from this thing is gonna do decent damage on neutral hits. That base 125 attack isn't to be scoffed at.
• Inteleon's definitely the weakest link but a focus energy/scope lens wallbreaking set seems like it could be decent, akin to Gen4 Sniper Kingdra. He's got a great speed tier too. Idk, gonna have to play about with it

 

[Vengeance417]

Idk why people think Cinderace can ONLY NOW take Clef on when it was already able to with Pyro Ball alone, which 2HKOd even without Choice Band. Sure, it’s able to OHKO it now with Gunk, but Clef wasn’t coming in on Pyro Ball well, previously. All Clef was able to do was hope to stall it out with Wish + Protect, and even then Cinderace could shut that down with Taunt.

That being said, Libero Cinderace and Grassy Surge Rillaboom sound fun as hell, and I can’t wait to see how they perform. It’s refreshing to finally have a decent terrain setter back, in particular.

 

[Pokeron]

I find it odd that nobody mentioned yet how good Zeraora is with Grassy Surge, especially since Rillaboom invites Corviknight and can U-Turn:

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon in Grassy Terrain: 289-341 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

= every Hippo variant goes down. Also:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora in Grassy Terrain: 168-200 (52.9 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery


I won't be surprised if this combination is run everywhere.

 

[Ruft]

Cinderace is bound to be extremely good. Its movepool is very wide, both in coverage and utility options, so there are many different moves that it can utilize. After brainstorming a bit I'm thinking a set like this should be solid:

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots (/ Choice Band)
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot / Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn / Zen Headbutt / Taunt / Court Change

Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick both nail Steel-types. They differ in the fact that Pyro Ball hits Aegislash and Corviknight, while High Jump Kick hits Hydreigon, Kyurem, Terrakion, and Obstagoon. Of course there's also more risk involved in using High Jump Kick.
Gunk Shot and Iron Head both nail Clefable and Togekiss. Gunk Shot does significantly more damage than Iron Head but is less reliable and can't flinch. Unlike Iron Head Gunk Shot also hurts Primarina, but Iron Head hits Kyurem and Terrakion in case you're missing High Jump Kick.
Sucker Punch is fantastic since it allows Cinderace to revenge kill Ghost-types like Dragapult, Gengar, and Chandelure with priority, while also hurting Aegislash and Jirachi if you're missing Pyro Ball. It can also do substantial damage to other faster Pokemon like Zeraora.
U-turn makes the most out of Cinderace as an offensive pivot. Zen Headbutt hits Toxapex, but its damage is still quite mediocre and it risks getting hit by a Scald burn or Knock Off from Toxapex if you don't hit it on the switch (or flinch it). It's still nice for hitting Fighting-types like Conkeldurr and Kommo-o and dealing with Gengar and Salazzle (more reliably) though. Cinderace still struggles with breaking through walls like Hippowdon, Seismitoad, Kommo-o, and Toxapex, which is why I think Taunt is also a great option to shut these down. Finally, Court Change is still a phenomenal move, especially in the HO matchup, so I could still see that being used as well.

Ultimately, it should come down to the team it's used on. I'm curious to see what it will most commonly run and how it will fare!

 

[Pabloaram]

Idt Rillaboom is gonna be that good. Being walled by Corviknight isnt the best thing...
Also terrain have 2 nerf: dmg reduction (50%---30%) and can be deffoged

 

[Empoleolindo]

Can we already ban Cinderace or we gonna pretend that it will last on OU?

 

[Empress Mobile]

I'm not sure if it would be any good, but Inteleon could run a Critdra 2.0 set with Scope Lens and Hydro Pump/Energy Ball/Ice Beam/Focus Energy. it has better speed which allows it to outpace more of the metagame without running Agility, and it also has better SpA. However, its worse bulk makes setting up a bit trickier. I do think it could tear apart balance cores pretty decently, and it does still get the jump on some offensive mons as well.

Edit: Though immediately after posting this I'm already seeing two issues, those being Ferrothorn and Toxapex.

 

[Shinybro64]

Can we already ban Cinderace or we gonna pretend that it will last on OU?

I agree, if Greninja didn't last in Gen 6 Ou (which had megas AND far more pokemon), I have serious doubts as to whether Cinderace will remain in the tier. It will definitely rise in usage and in viability, but how much so is the real question.

 

[Jordy]

Can we already ban Cinderace or we gonna pretend that it will last on OU?

Let's "pretend" a little longer. Seriously, it's only been released for an hour or so. Posts like this without any substance add absolutely nothing to the thread, and we will be deleting them going forward.

 

[Seth Vilo]

The biggest difference I see between Greninja and Cinderace is how reliant the latter is on Heavy Duty Boots to reliably do things. Greninja was free to run Choice items, Life Orb, or Expert Belt with ease, making it far scarier an attacker. Cinderace has to either lock itself on a move and lose a quarter of its health (at least) every time it comes in, or lose out on a huge amount of potential damage to repeatedly enter and affect the battle. It is far more manageable with either set. Also, Greninja remained OU last generation; while we lost Megas and Z moves, lots of the Pokemon themselves remain and more are returning in 2 weeks, so a direct comparison to Gen 6 OU isn't fair.

 

[McCoolDude]

I jumped on the ladder for a little bit this morning, and as expected, HA rilla and ace are everywhere (particularly Ace, who was on every team I encountered).

My initial notes: Cinderace didn't really do anything that it didn't do before. Granted, this is very new and I've only played a handful of games. It still heavily pressures wishport clef, though now it does so via the threat of Gunk Shot (in practice, my Cinderace check is Rhyperior, so either no one had gunk shot or no one used it for fear of doing virtually no damage and potentially poisoning a Rhyperior when they could burn it). Libero + sucker punch is interesting for using the dark typing defensively and offensively versus ghosts.

Overall it seems like Cinderace got a much-needed boost to its coverage moves with some options for mind games, but otherwise does pretty much the same things it has always done. It definitely doesn't seem like a world-ending threat, but does need to be respected a little more now.

 

[Steel With It]

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt / Sucker Punch
- Court Change / Taunt / Sucker Punch
- U-Turn

In the Clef/Pex/Corv/Ferro/Pult/Zera/Salazzle/Kommo/Conk meta, I think these are gonna be the best slashes for Boots Bunny. HJK, Gunk Shot and Iron Head all seem redundant to me; HJK is hilarious for Fighting/Fighting memes, but it doesn't hit anything common enough to be worth losing either Fire coverage, Psychic coverage or priority for, and most Fairies already drop to two Pyro Balls.

 

[Sun King]

Cinderace is bound to be extremely good. Its movepool is very wide, both in coverage and utility options, so there are many different moves that it can utilize. After brainstorming a bit I'm thinking a set like this should be solid:

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots (/ Choice Band)
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot / Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn / Zen Headbutt / Taunt / Court Change

Pyro Ball and High Jump Kick both nail Steel-types. They differ in the fact that Pyro Ball hits Aegislash and Corviknight, while High Jump Kick hits Hydreigon, Kyurem, Terrakion, and Obstagoon. Of course there's also more risk involved in using High Jump Kick.
Gunk Shot and Iron Head both nail Clefable and Togekiss. Gunk Shot does significantly more damage than Iron Head but is less reliable and can't flinch. Unlike Iron Head Gunk Shot also hurts Primarina, but Iron Head hits Kyurem and Terrakion in case you're missing High Jump Kick.
Sucker Punch is fantastic since it allows Cinderace to revenge kill Ghost-types like Dragapult, Gengar, and Chandelure with priority, while also hurting Aegislash and Jirachi if you're missing Pyro Ball. It can also do substantial damage to other faster Pokemon like Zeraora.
U-turn makes the most out of Cinderace as an offensive pivot. Zen Headbutt hits Toxapex, but its damage is still quite mediocre and it risks getting hit by a Scald burn or Knock Off from Toxapex if you don't hit it on the switch (or flinch it). It's still nice for hitting Fighting-types like Conkeldurr and Kommo-o and dealing with Gengar and Salazzle (more reliably) though. Cinderace still struggles with breaking through walls like Hippowdon, Seismitoad, Kommo-o, and Toxapex, which is why I think Taunt is also a great option to shut these down. Finally, Court Change is still a phenomenal move, especially in the HO matchup, so I could still see that being used as well.

Ultimately, it should come down to the team it's used on. I'm curious to see what it will most commonly run and how it will fare!

I think Gunk is overkill unless you really want to take on Primarina with Cinderace tbh, and Iron Head seems pretty redundant because Pyro Ball already accomplishes the Clefable and Togekiss kills in 2 hits (and they're not invited in by Cinder so it seems weird to include a surprise OHKO when neither check Cinder), and you're not getting Court Change with that set which to me was the main reason to even run Cinderace pre-Libero. I think Pyro/Sucker/Zen/U Turn are probably the best moves moving forward. Zen Headbutt could maybe compete with Court Change if you don't need to smack Pex around.

I do see a world in which Libero Cinder becomes a nightmare for team building in the same way Protean Gren used to be back in the day, but I would imagine the most popular sets would be running U-Turn all the time because it's now STAB and was already imo mandatory. It'll be interesting to see what the best Balance/Stall breaker sets will be because Taunt+permanent STAB on a pretty diverse move pool was what made Gren capable of giving pretty much every archetype a hard time and Cinder has that too.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

It seems to me that while Cinderace is obviously a beefed up version of an already good mon (and yes may be banworthy, we'll see) it has serious 4MSS as well as item problems.

It needs all of Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot, High Jump Kick, Pyro Ball, and Iron Head to avoid the meta's walls and of course it isn't going to give up U-Turn and Sucker Punch lightly.

Cinderace really wants both a Choice Band and Heavy Duty Boots. Band is capable of being worn down and is, critically, locked into a move, which makes it easier to wall because none of its attacks are particularly spammable through an entire team. HDB is too weak to break super fat things like Hippo without significant prior chip / hazard support, and breaking stuff that's half-broken already ain't special.

This is pretty much total theorymon I admit, but I think it will come down to how easy it is to scout Ace's coverage and what move it locks into. Band and maybe heyIcanswitchmoves LO seem like the new sets to watch out for, with Boots being very similar to before just a bit stronger.

 

[Jordy]

After playing 20 games with Libero Cinderace, I can't say I've been particularly impressed with it; the previous posts calling for a quick ban were definitely overreacting. Sure, Libero Cinderace is definitely a step up from Blaze Cinderace, but it is still fairly prediction and matchup reliant; if you get a turn wrong and they switch into Toxapex for example, you are forced out. Cinderace needs to nail practically every turn to be efficient as a wallbreaker, though it is true that it is rather forgiving considering its fast U-turn. If you load into Hippowdon, however, Cinderace is practically deadweight. This is especially notable as sand teams are even stronger than they were before.

Beyond that, Cinderace has some pretty serious issues with 4MSS too. Cinderace really wants all of Pyro Ball / U-turn / Zen Headbutt / High Jump Kick / Taunt / Sucker Punch, and you could even make an argument for Gunk Shot. Obviously, you cannot fit all of these moves onto a single set, and as a result, you will have to pick and choose your matchups, which doesn't work out very well.

That's really all I have to say for now. Cinderace definitely doesn't feel too overwhelming to deal with and rewards good play, its issues with 4MSS are unfortunate, but that doesn't make it unusable by any means.

 

[Ema Skye]

Ace definitely has 4MSS to a different degree than Gren.

• HJK is the strongest move it gets, and it's its best tool for breaking through grounds like Hippo, Rhyperior and Gastro.
• Pyro Ball is its most reliable move, and does heaps to Clef and Togekiss. You also want it for Aegislash and Corviknight.
• U-Turn synergizes so well with Boots and Ace in general creating so many switches.
• Zen Headbutt is needed for Pex and Kommo-o (and Gyarados if it ever returns). It also allows you to resist Fighting so Conk can't revenge you easily.
• Sucker Punch allows it to revenge Dragapult and Scarf Gengar who otherwise revenge it (and both capitalize on HJK recoil!)
• Iron Head is your best option for Substitute Dragapult who dodges Sucker Punch with the Sub and resists Pyro.
• Gunk Shot is probably the least important unless you really hate Primarina

and this doesn't even get into moves like Taunt or Court Change that provide utility (Boots + Court Change is so good).

Without Band, it's also not that strong and it misses a lot of 2HKOs against targets like Kommo-o, Toxapex and Gastrodon even with its best moves. And with Band, it's presents many unappealing situations like being locked into HJK when Dragapult is everywhere or being locked into Sucker Punch when Sub Primarina is so popular. Both situations also force it to take hazard damage, which is much more significant without Boots. You definitely need Defog with BandAce.

 

[Pokeron]

Nobody mentions how potent Bulk Up on Cinderace is?. Very odd, especially since Greninja in Gen 7 always lacked a boosting move in my honest opinion to be incredible strong - and as Cinderace is similar, I wouldn't be surprised about two things:
Bulk Up + typing changes to be crazy good if you can dance around the opponents checks and second I wouldn't be surprised to read in a month or so how "centralizing"/"broken"/buzzword Bulk Up Cinderace is. That's all I am saying.

 

[TURBODERP]

I find it odd that nobody mentioned yet how good Zeraora is with Grassy Surge, especially since Rillaboom invites Corviknight and can U-Turn:

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon in Grassy Terrain: 289-341 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

= every Hippo variant goes down. Also:

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora in Grassy Terrain: 168-200 (52.9 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Grassy Terrain recovery


I won't be surprised if this combination is run everywhere.

Also Grassy Terrain lets Zeraora beat SpDef Gastrodon which is huge since previously GK didn't 2HKO.

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon in Grassy Terrain: 244-291 (57.2 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

While Zeraora is better in most cases, Dracozolt might be fun with Rillaboom as a partner that can U-Turn and set up Grassy Terrain for Sub+3 Attacks Dracozolt that runs enough bulk to not have Sub broken by Rotom-Wash/Heat. Hustle missing sucks (and Volt Absorb is probably too much "inferior Zeraora, but WHO KNOWS), but Scope Lens coooould be run since Grassy Terrain gives temporary Leftovers (Life Orb is great for power though).

 

[Sun King]

After playing 20 games with Libero Cinderace, I can't say I've been particularly impressed with it; the previous posts calling for a quick ban were definitely overreacting. Sure, Libero Cinderace is definitely a step up from Blaze Cinderace, but it is still fairly prediction and matchup reliant; if you get a turn wrong and they switch into Toxapex for example, you are forced out. Cinderace needs to nail practically every turn to be efficient as a wallbreaker, though it is true that it is rather forgiving considering its fast U-turn. If you load into Hippowdon, however, Cinderace is practically deadweight. This is especially notable as sand teams are even stronger than they were before.

Beyond that, Cinderace has some pretty serious issues with 4MSS too. Cinderace really wants all of Pyro Ball / U-turn / Zen Headbutt / High Jump Kick / Taunt / Sucker Punch, and you could even make an argument for Gunk Shot. Obviously, you cannot fit all of these moves onto a single set, and as a result, you will have to pick and choose your matchups, which doesn't work out very well.

That's really all I have to say for now. Cinderace definitely doesn't feel too overwhelming to deal with and rewards good play, its issues with 4MSS are unfortunate, but that doesn't make it unusable by any means.

I'd concur with this for the most part. I've also logged about 10-15 games with it and I want to echo Steel With It by saying it really doesn't perform fundamentally different from Blaze Cinder. I will say--mindgames vs Toxapex are handy, and I do think Zen Headbutt is better than really any other coverage options. Yes, it's really prediction reliant, but for a Pokemon that was 50% of the time just a sacrifice to regain momentum, suddenly checking the best wall in OU overnight is a pretty big step up. Cinder does have 4MSS, but Pyro/Zen/U-Turn really are sorta mandatory to me, and you can mess around with Court/Taunt/Sucker/HJK in the last slot depending on your team needs.

U-Turn is pretty stellar because it puts in so much chip against things that with a fast team can be really easy to clean up. Notably, Hydreigon takes an absolute ton from it now.

252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 234-276 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've been using Court for HO matchups, but I might swap to Sucker because Drag is OHKO'd with rocks up most of the time. I think the fact that you can also run a Taunt/Pyro/Iron/Zen set to basically remove anything defensive not named Hippowdon with it.

Oh, and FWIW, I still think Gunk Shot is a major waste of time.

 

[Steorra]

I'd concur with this for the most part. I've also logged about 10-15 games with it and I want to echo Steel With It by saying it really doesn't perform fundamentally different from Blaze Cinder. I will say--mindgames vs Toxapex are handy, and I do think Zen Headbutt is better than really any other coverage options. Yes, it's really prediction reliant, but for a Pokemon that was 50% of the time just a sacrifice to regain momentum, suddenly checking the best wall in OU overnight is a pretty big step up. Cinder does have 4MSS, but Pyro/Zen/U-Turn really are sorta mandatory to me, and you can mess around with Court/Taunt/Sucker/HJK in the last slot depending on your team needs.

U-Turn is pretty stellar because it puts in so much chip against things that with a fast team can be really easy to clean up. Notably, Hydreigon takes an absolute ton from it now.

252 Atk Libero Cinderace U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 234-276 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've been using Court for HO matchups, but I might swap to Sucker because Drag is OHKO'd with rocks up most of the time. I think the fact that you can also run a Taunt/Pyro/Iron/Zen set to basically remove anything defensive not named Hippowdon with it.

Oh, and FWIW, I still think Gunk Shot is a major waste of time.

Agree with it being overestimated and that gunk shot is a waste, pyro ball should do a lot still to the likes of clef and then gunk has a higher chance to miss and then clef can't really do much to you in return

 

[Ema Skye]

Also Grassy Terrain lets Zeraora beat SpDef Gastrodon which is huge since previously GK didn't 2HKO.

4 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon in Grassy Terrain: 244-291 (57.2 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

This core is fantastic with Primarina too.

Taking out Gastro is great for Prima as Gastro is a primary counter. In return, Prima is a great switchin to Hydreigon and Dragapult, and Rilla especially appreciates this. Zera and Rilla are also great at weakening Pex and all three contribute to wearing down Ferrothorn. Prima also likes how the terrain allows it to Sub more.

 

[FCKNfuego]

After playing 20 games with Libero Cinderace, I can't say I've been particularly impressed with it; the previous posts calling for a quick ban were definitely overreacting. Sure, Libero Cinderace is definitely a step up from Blaze Cinderace, but it is still fairly prediction and matchup reliant; if you get a turn wrong and they switch into Toxapex for example, you are forced out. Cinderace needs to nail practically every turn to be efficient as a wallbreaker, though it is true that it is rather forgiving considering its fast U-turn. If you load into Hippowdon, however, Cinderace is practically deadweight. This is especially notable as sand teams are even stronger than they were before.

Beyond that, Cinderace has some pretty serious issues with 4MSS too. Cinderace really wants all of Pyro Ball / U-turn / Zen Headbutt / High Jump Kick / Taunt / Sucker Punch, and you could even make an argument for Gunk Shot. Obviously, you cannot fit all of these moves onto a single set, and as a result, you will have to pick and choose your matchups, which doesn't work out very well.

That's really all I have to say for now. Cinderace definitely doesn't feel too overwhelming to deal with and rewards good play, its issues with 4MSS are unfortunate, but that doesn't make it unusable by any means.

What set did you use? I find HJK to generally be useless unless you're going banded which from my exp is way too prediction reliant and inconsistent until like mid-late game and it definitely doesn't need Gunk. U-Turn / Pyro Ball / Zen Headbutt...filler seems to be the optimal 4 for the current meta imo with HDB, Expert Belt or i guess Muscle Band if you wanna be different (the small damage boosts from this are fairly notable over the course of a game). Filler could be basically anything, Sucker, Super Fang, Court Change, HJK, Taunt etc....

 

[Steorra]

What set did you use? I find HJK to generally be useless unless you're going banded which from my exp is way too prediction reliant and inconsistent until like mid-late game and it definitely doesn't need Gunk. U-Turn / Pyro Ball / Zen Headbutt...filler seems to be the optimal 4 for the current meta imo with HDB, Expert Belt or i guess Muscle Band if you wanna be different. Filler could be basically anything, Sucker, Super Fang, Court Change, HJK, Taunt etc....

I think sucker could be pretty good for a threat like pult, court change could also be good if you need hazard control

 

[Vexxu]

With Vish gone and the HA Starters in the game I wouldn't be surprised to see those Arcanine numbers rising as a decent counter to the potent looking HA Rilla and Cinderace. What do you think?

 

[sparkwings]

I've been laddering a bit so far today and I have to say that this core has helped me find a lot of success so far:

sets

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Sucker Punch
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick / Zen Headbutt

Rillaboom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Freeze-Dry

Core is pretty self explanatory. The combination of Cind + Rilla is pretty strong and can muscle through things like Hippo + Ferro + Clef with ease. Grassy Terrain halving EQ damage against Cind, as well as giving it some passive recovery, is much appreciated. Paired with Modest Specs Kyurem, these three are capable of breaking through most defensive cores. Scarf Rillaboom is pretty potent, OHKOing Zeraora with Wood Hammer and dealing a minimum of 38% to Dragapult, putting it easily in range of Cinderace's Sucker Punch. Cinderace is a standard new toy. U-Turn + Sucker + Pyro are pretty useful, allowing Cind to function effectively as an offensive threat that can pivot out on walls such as Hippowdon. High Jump Kick is used for its greater damage against things like Rotom, but Zen Headbutt can be used to help against Defensive Kommo. Finally, Kyurem functions as a strong breaker. It previously struggled due to its inability to break common defensive cores like Clef + Corv + Pex, but when combined with these two, those issues are much less apparent.

Just some more meta thoughts: Helmet Hippowdon looks pretty good right now. It's able to shrug off damage from things like Cinderace and punish it even when it U-Turns out. Corviknight also looks pretty good due to its ability to wall most variants of Rillaboom, although taking a Knock does hamper its longevity. Finally, Clefable and Ferrothorn appreciatethe extra 6% per turn given by Grassy Terrain, allowing Clefable to better handle threats like Specs Kyurem and Dragapult, and also giving Ferrothorn more recovery against threats like Zeraora.

All around, I'm pretty happy and excited with these changes. After the Vish ban, I thought the meta would remain relatively stale until DLC drop, mostly just filled with sand and the same bulky offense; while new toy syndrome is responsible for a lot of the interesting strategies used right now, it's clear that some of these will remain effective and shift the meta in a positive direction.

With Vish gone and the HA Starters in the game I wouldn't be surprised to see those Arcanine numbers rising as a decent counter to the potent looking HA Rilla and Cinderace. What do you think?

I don't think so. Morning sun as recovery is pretty bad; 8 PP means that it can't continue to recover reliably throughout the match. Additionally, with Rillaboom carrying Knock Off and Cinderace with Taunt, It'll be hard pressed to come in without taking hazards and recover off the damage taken.