I think Incineroar would be a better choice, due to its access to Parting Shot and U-Turn along with a Sucker Punch resistance to boot. Arcanine has a few advantages like Extremespeed and Teleport, but I think Incineroar will typically be the preferred choice
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v4 (check out posts #483 and 484 for DLC1 info!)
- Thread starter TPP
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Three words: Hawlucha is back.
Though, to elaborate, I believe VoltTurn Offense is viable now, too.
With a terrain setter that is more than just fodder in the tier and the tier not necessitating Physically defensive Toxapex, Hawlucha is back with one hell of a vengeance, able to completely dismantle teams when given the perfect opportunity. While Bulu served as a fine terrain setter for it before, Rillaboom is a much greater support Pokemon when it comes to setting its terrain, being able to provide Knock Off support, Leech Seed, and pivoting for its team. Additionally, with access to the reliable Close Combat, Hawlucha no longer needs to risk a game-losing HJK and can just cleanly sweep teams when the opportunity arises. Though, with Hippowdon here to harass it, I've enjoyed running Taunt as a last move to prevent Toxic/Whirlwind, as its STAB moves provide it magnanimous coverage as is.
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Taunt
Specifically, this set is super nice. It has enough speed to outspeed Sand Rush Excadrill after Unburden, and has the aforementioned Taunt to turn its checks in PhysDef Pex and Hippowdon into setup fodder. Aegislash is the only thing in the tier that genuinely walls it, but running Libero Cinderace/Rotom-A on VoltTurn Offense really helps it a lot. All in all, I highly suggest giving this set a shot if you opt to run Seed Hawlucha.
Though, Gen 7 has already demonstrated to us the raw potential of Hawlucha's cleaning abilities under a terrain. Let's talk about the much more interesting Rillaboom.
Despite what it seems on paper, from what I've seen and played, I don't believe Rillaboom is really all too fit as an offensive Pokemon in the tier due to the prevalence of natural Grass resists such as Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Ferrothorn. While it has some neat options, strength, as well as a terrain to back it, I've found it serves much better as a defensive pivot. While its pure Grass typing lets it check Excadrill (especially with its terrain) and Rotom-Wash, it also has fairly respectable bulk of 100/90/70. Though, most prominently, it has a great supportive movepool. Support moves consisting of Drum Beating, Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt give it great options to disrupt the opponent and support its team, however, its access to U-Turn lets a defensive variant perform especially well on VoltTurn Offense archetypes along with Libero Cinderace and Hawlucha as an opportunistic cleaner. With these great options and circumstances, the archetype is startlingly solid at the moment with Libero Cinderace now freed, and without Dracovish to harass it every which way.
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Drum Beating
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed / Taunt
I've been running this set to great success. It has enough speed to outspeed Neutral Aegislash, and is specked to soak physical hits and support its team. The last slot is fairly interchangeable, but I've enjoyed Leech Seed to sustain my team along with Grassy Surge. It works surprisingly well.
Rotom-Wash is now freed as well, and without Seismitoad being of any more real relevancy, it works to a great effectiveness on VoltTurn, being able to completely destroy Hippowdon and act as a great breaker with access to Plot, performing similarly to Heat, and maybe even to a greater effectiveness. It works very well with Hawlucha, too, for its ability to break apart its potential defensive answers, and form a good pivoting core with defensive Rillaboom.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1125587882
Here's an example replay of how I believe the new era of VoltTurn would work, at least with Hawlucha variants; you pivot around, wear away at your opponent, and eventually, you find a good opportunity to get your terrain up and get Hawlucha in. Even in impossible seeming scenarios, Hawlucha is capable of completely breaking apart the foe if you find a good opportunity, which VoltTurn has always really been able to scout for, especially now with Rillaboom.
Though, to elaborate, I believe VoltTurn Offense is viable now, too.
With a terrain setter that is more than just fodder in the tier and the tier not necessitating Physically defensive Toxapex, Hawlucha is back with one hell of a vengeance, able to completely dismantle teams when given the perfect opportunity. While Bulu served as a fine terrain setter for it before, Rillaboom is a much greater support Pokemon when it comes to setting its terrain, being able to provide Knock Off support, Leech Seed, and pivoting for its team. Additionally, with access to the reliable Close Combat, Hawlucha no longer needs to risk a game-losing HJK and can just cleanly sweep teams when the opportunity arises. Though, with Hippowdon here to harass it, I've enjoyed running Taunt as a last move to prevent Toxic/Whirlwind, as its STAB moves provide it magnanimous coverage as is.
Hawlucha @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Taunt
Specifically, this set is super nice. It has enough speed to outspeed Sand Rush Excadrill after Unburden, and has the aforementioned Taunt to turn its checks in PhysDef Pex and Hippowdon into setup fodder. Aegislash is the only thing in the tier that genuinely walls it, but running Libero Cinderace/Rotom-A on VoltTurn Offense really helps it a lot. All in all, I highly suggest giving this set a shot if you opt to run Seed Hawlucha.
Though, Gen 7 has already demonstrated to us the raw potential of Hawlucha's cleaning abilities under a terrain. Let's talk about the much more interesting Rillaboom.
Despite what it seems on paper, from what I've seen and played, I don't believe Rillaboom is really all too fit as an offensive Pokemon in the tier due to the prevalence of natural Grass resists such as Corviknight, Rotom-Heat, and Ferrothorn. While it has some neat options, strength, as well as a terrain to back it, I've found it serves much better as a defensive pivot. While its pure Grass typing lets it check Excadrill (especially with its terrain) and Rotom-Wash, it also has fairly respectable bulk of 100/90/70. Though, most prominently, it has a great supportive movepool. Support moves consisting of Drum Beating, Knock Off, Leech Seed, and Taunt give it great options to disrupt the opponent and support its team, however, its access to U-Turn lets a defensive variant perform especially well on VoltTurn Offense archetypes along with Libero Cinderace and Hawlucha as an opportunistic cleaner. With these great options and circumstances, the archetype is startlingly solid at the moment with Libero Cinderace now freed, and without Dracovish to harass it every which way.
Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Drum Beating
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed / Taunt
I've been running this set to great success. It has enough speed to outspeed Neutral Aegislash, and is specked to soak physical hits and support its team. The last slot is fairly interchangeable, but I've enjoyed Leech Seed to sustain my team along with Grassy Surge. It works surprisingly well.
Rotom-Wash is now freed as well, and without Seismitoad being of any more real relevancy, it works to a great effectiveness on VoltTurn, being able to completely destroy Hippowdon and act as a great breaker with access to Plot, performing similarly to Heat, and maybe even to a greater effectiveness. It works very well with Hawlucha, too, for its ability to break apart its potential defensive answers, and form a good pivoting core with defensive Rillaboom.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1125587882
Here's an example replay of how I believe the new era of VoltTurn would work, at least with Hawlucha variants; you pivot around, wear away at your opponent, and eventually, you find a good opportunity to get your terrain up and get Hawlucha in. Even in impossible seeming scenarios, Hawlucha is capable of completely breaking apart the foe if you find a good opportunity, which VoltTurn has always really been able to scout for, especially now with Rillaboom.
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One of the biggest issues people have forgotten about with Protean Greninja is that it had access to Hidden Power granting it any typing it liked. Right now Cinderace still has issues against stuff like Hippowdon because it doesn't actually have coverage on it (I've been running a set that specifically counters it but even that isn't 100%).
Greninja also was decent on both attack stats, Cinderace is piss poor in its SpA so it can't really take advantage of that moveset well. Its added bulk compared to Greninja is kinda cool when you start changing into resists and more neutral hits but it has no recovery to stick around, no hazards or status like greninja when you can't directly attack your opponent effectively, and less spammable options than Greninja had in Ice Beam and Dark Pulse.
All that said it's still pretty good. Powerful stab U-turn and Sucker Punch will definitely be good and it now can threaten some stuff in interesting ways like Zen Headbutt into a Conk fighting attack or becoming Dark type against Grimm so it can't affect it.
Taunt is going to be one of its best moves imo.
Greninja also was decent on both attack stats, Cinderace is piss poor in its SpA so it can't really take advantage of that moveset well. Its added bulk compared to Greninja is kinda cool when you start changing into resists and more neutral hits but it has no recovery to stick around, no hazards or status like greninja when you can't directly attack your opponent effectively, and less spammable options than Greninja had in Ice Beam and Dark Pulse.
All that said it's still pretty good. Powerful stab U-turn and Sucker Punch will definitely be good and it now can threaten some stuff in interesting ways like Zen Headbutt into a Conk fighting attack or becoming Dark type against Grimm so it can't affect it.
Taunt is going to be one of its best moves imo.
Been a while since I posted here
Cinderace is really incredible with the addition of libero to its arsenal. Everyone in this thread seems to be pointing out things like "it seems to function just like blaze" and "it's got huge 4mss", but that's mostly because you guys are treating libero like a souped up version of blaze instead of treating it as a new mon with new tools altogether. I've been using bulk up today and it's really impressed, not really suffering from 4MSS at all besides occasionally missing the ability to use sucker vs pult and is an incredibly threatening mon. Most people immediately jump on the offensive potential of libero, with it letting stab gunk blow up clef among other things, but it also has many defensive applications. Prior to getting libero, hippowdon was a very reliable check for cinderace, being able to threaten it out with eq, but with libero you can bulk on the switch then hjk and take nothing from eq with +1 which means they're forced to whirlwind and let you wreak havoc again later once clef wishports back the chip damage from helmet + sand and lets you do it again until you get a good ww roll and can overwhelm the hippo. That hippowdon scenario is just one of many scenarios where cinderace can use the defensive applications of libero to supplement its abilities as a setup sweeper and breaker. There's been numerous games where libero cinder has just been able to run through teams with bulk up + pyro + hjk + zen and it's really impressed me with its performance so far.
Rillaboom on the other hand, is absolutely horrendous, at least from an offensive perspective. The terrain nerf is really clearly felt in application, with even cb sets being stonewalled by corv and it doesn't really fair that much better against other metagame staples like defensive kommo. Not only that, but grassy terrain is an insane boon for your opponents as well as yourself, making opposing toxapex that much more unkillable and providing passive healing to mons like helmet kommo and dragapult that wouldn't get it otherwise. The one positive thing that I can say about it is that knock off lets you remove lefties from many mons and makes mandi/rotomh poor switchins due to how reliant they are on boots to function. A lot of people have been touting its synergy with lucha to be great, but I don't really see it. Hawlucha is also a horribly inconsistent mon that gets trivialized by hippo, and has very little chance of breaking through pex, even with taunt, not to mention it can't set up on anything. Defensive sets have some potential due to the aforementioned utility of knock off and grassy terrain's support for things like gk zera and pex, but it's really just not worth using in the current metagame over more effective options imo.
Cinderace is really incredible with the addition of libero to its arsenal. Everyone in this thread seems to be pointing out things like "it seems to function just like blaze" and "it's got huge 4mss", but that's mostly because you guys are treating libero like a souped up version of blaze instead of treating it as a new mon with new tools altogether. I've been using bulk up today and it's really impressed, not really suffering from 4MSS at all besides occasionally missing the ability to use sucker vs pult and is an incredibly threatening mon. Most people immediately jump on the offensive potential of libero, with it letting stab gunk blow up clef among other things, but it also has many defensive applications. Prior to getting libero, hippowdon was a very reliable check for cinderace, being able to threaten it out with eq, but with libero you can bulk on the switch then hjk and take nothing from eq with +1 which means they're forced to whirlwind and let you wreak havoc again later once clef wishports back the chip damage from helmet + sand and lets you do it again until you get a good ww roll and can overwhelm the hippo. That hippowdon scenario is just one of many scenarios where cinderace can use the defensive applications of libero to supplement its abilities as a setup sweeper and breaker. There's been numerous games where libero cinder has just been able to run through teams with bulk up + pyro + hjk + zen and it's really impressed me with its performance so far.
Rillaboom on the other hand, is absolutely horrendous, at least from an offensive perspective. The terrain nerf is really clearly felt in application, with even cb sets being stonewalled by corv and it doesn't really fair that much better against other metagame staples like defensive kommo. Not only that, but grassy terrain is an insane boon for your opponents as well as yourself, making opposing toxapex that much more unkillable and providing passive healing to mons like helmet kommo and dragapult that wouldn't get it otherwise. The one positive thing that I can say about it is that knock off lets you remove lefties from many mons and makes mandi/rotomh poor switchins due to how reliant they are on boots to function. A lot of people have been touting its synergy with lucha to be great, but I don't really see it. Hawlucha is also a horribly inconsistent mon that gets trivialized by hippo, and has very little chance of breaking through pex, even with taunt, not to mention it can't set up on anything. Defensive sets have some potential due to the aforementioned utility of knock off and grassy terrain's support for things like gk zera and pex, but it's really just not worth using in the current metagame over more effective options imo.
hm bulu had a similar problem with skarm, guess we gotta wait for mag to be trapping one mon
rilla + mag + haw look nasty....
People are sleeping on Rillaboom. It's a huge boon to offensive teams to have a Zeraora and Excadrill check that can actually do damage. Banded Wood Hammer hits hard enugh to OHKO some Toxapex and there's U-Turn for Corviknight. The speed tier is also honestly pretty good, it can run Adamant and still outspeed Jolly Bisharp.
I've had some success with HDB Cinderace as well, with a set of Pyro Ball / HJK / Zen Headbutt / Sucker Punch. I don't view it as banworthy (so far) but it's great. Can anyone share their experience with Life Orb Cinderace?
I've had some success with HDB Cinderace as well, with a set of Pyro Ball / HJK / Zen Headbutt / Sucker Punch. I don't view it as banworthy (so far) but it's great. Can anyone share their experience with Life Orb Cinderace?
Personally, I have no idea what's going on with people saying Cinderace isn't meeting expectations. Laddered for a good hour and a half maybe today and it definitely is better than I was personally expecting. To be fair, I have definitely seen a bunch of people using and talking about the old HDB sets and some choice band, but I used life orb on my team and it was absurdly effective. Pyro Ball / Zen Headbutt / Gunk Shot / Sucker Punch was my set, but HJK could definitely be used instead of Gunk. I just wanted it because I didn't think Water Grounds would be used as much and OHKOing fairies and the poison chance made me pick it over HJK. Regardless, this set did an absolutely insane amount of work, even with teams with Rotom-H + Pex, Rotom-H + Kommo, and Hippo cores. Pyro does like 40% to Hippo, Pex and Kommo are easily 2hkoed by Zen Headbutt and Libero allows you to stay in on Pex besides fear of Scald burn, and then Gunk Shot and HJK are just really strong moves that complement Pyro Ball really well neutrally. It was an excellent pairing with Zeraora as they pressure Rotom, Hippo, and Dragons really well together while also being effective against offensive mons due to natural speed and Sucker Punch. Life Orb Sucker OHKOes Pult and does around 60% to most fast mons like Zeraora and opposing Cinderace which pressures them to stay healthy. Judging it mostly on HDB pivot type sets is a massive oversight in my opinion. Choice Band with U-turn was a pretty big nuke, and I also faced a few bulk up sets which were super devestating.
I think the fact it's sets are so flexible despite barely needed the flexibility is an indicator of how good Cinderace truly is. As far as my Life Orb set goes, Pyro Ball is a given and Sucker was definitely fantastic. Zen Headbutt was needed for Pex and Kommo and after that its really just picking between HJK and another option like Gunk Shot for big neutral damage on Rotom-H / Waters / Fires etc. And you don't really need anything else. I didn't really see any 4mss in terms of coverage unless you want to run a more utility option like Taunt or U-turn. Taunt could be used on this set over Sucker, but I definitely wouldn't advise life orb U-turn. Band could definitely make great use of it with the same type of moveset but dropping Sucker for U-turn. It could even keep Sucker if you run Pyro / Double Edge / U-turn / Sucker because Double Edge is just a great neutral option that is pretty slept on imo. Bulk Up with Sucker and Pyro Ball can also make fantastic use of Double Edge, or use Zen Headbutt to excel in the Pex and Kommo match up. Don't sleep on Bulk Up either, shit is scary.
So yeah Cinderace was a fantastic breaker with a lot of utility against offense with Sucker Punch and good speed. Boots pivot an court change is nice, but as I said before judging it solely on those sets is massively underselling it's potential. I would view it similarly to defog Latios from ORAS or something. Yeah it can Defog which is nice, but Latios was at it's best when it was using Roost 3 attacks, specs, etc. Same thing with Cinderance to me. You can use boots pivot and/or court change, but it definitely puts the most work in on it's own when it's using a fully offensively focused set. A lot of people are naturally comparing Cinderace to Greninja. My opinion so far is that Greninja is definitely more flexible coverage wise (and a bit faster), but Cinderace doesn't need the flexibility because it dishes out considerably more damage in general, especially on neutral targets. I feel like Protean Ninja excelled in Ohkoing anything it wanted, while Libero Ace excells in 2hko everything it wants. It definitely has it's strong utility options like Gren and I feel like Bulk Up and Sucker give it more leeway against revenge killers.
I think the fact it's sets are so flexible despite barely needed the flexibility is an indicator of how good Cinderace truly is. As far as my Life Orb set goes, Pyro Ball is a given and Sucker was definitely fantastic. Zen Headbutt was needed for Pex and Kommo and after that its really just picking between HJK and another option like Gunk Shot for big neutral damage on Rotom-H / Waters / Fires etc. And you don't really need anything else. I didn't really see any 4mss in terms of coverage unless you want to run a more utility option like Taunt or U-turn. Taunt could be used on this set over Sucker, but I definitely wouldn't advise life orb U-turn. Band could definitely make great use of it with the same type of moveset but dropping Sucker for U-turn. It could even keep Sucker if you run Pyro / Double Edge / U-turn / Sucker because Double Edge is just a great neutral option that is pretty slept on imo. Bulk Up with Sucker and Pyro Ball can also make fantastic use of Double Edge, or use Zen Headbutt to excel in the Pex and Kommo match up. Don't sleep on Bulk Up either, shit is scary.
So yeah Cinderace was a fantastic breaker with a lot of utility against offense with Sucker Punch and good speed. Boots pivot an court change is nice, but as I said before judging it solely on those sets is massively underselling it's potential. I would view it similarly to defog Latios from ORAS or something. Yeah it can Defog which is nice, but Latios was at it's best when it was using Roost 3 attacks, specs, etc. Same thing with Cinderance to me. You can use boots pivot and/or court change, but it definitely puts the most work in on it's own when it's using a fully offensively focused set. A lot of people are naturally comparing Cinderace to Greninja. My opinion so far is that Greninja is definitely more flexible coverage wise (and a bit faster), but Cinderace doesn't need the flexibility because it dishes out considerably more damage in general, especially on neutral targets. I feel like Protean Ninja excelled in Ohkoing anything it wanted, while Libero Ace excells in 2hko everything it wants. It definitely has it's strong utility options like Gren and I feel like Bulk Up and Sucker give it more leeway against revenge killers.
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rillaboom does have a good speed tier for this meta, also I would say that cinderace isn't ban worthy, and definitely not in the same level as greninja
I think Cinderace will be the best with its hidden ability because it's already in OU and has good movepool, while Inteleon will likely not have its hidden ability used because sniper is a situational ability because Critical hits are not common without an item and only Octillery and Fearow (who are both in Untiered in Gen 7) are using it in any sets. Rillaboom will be better with its hidden Ability Grassy Surge being released becoming a weaker Tapu Bulu who isn't in the game until late 2020 so that's good because other Pokémon that get Surge Abilities are only used for their Abilities.
You're disregarding Choice Band Drapion, as well as the most iconic Sniper user of them all, Kingdra.
I didn't Mention Drapion because in gen 8 it uses Battle Armor in RU and Kingdra uses Swift Swim in OU
I agree with what's been said about Hawlucha being a big winner potentially. Toad not being around, decreased prevalence of Ferro and Pex will be good for it, less PhysDef investments all around are huge for it.
Libero Cinderace seems like an interesting partner for it. The only mons in the tier that aren't OHKO'd by +2 Acro or CC I believe are Aegi, Corv, Hippo, Bulky Jirachi, Mandibuzz, Mew, and Pex.
Terrain providing Unburden instead of Sky Attack+Herb opens a move slot for either Throat Chop or Taunt. Throat Chop handles Aegi, Taunt shuts down Hippo, so you can beat one or the other.
Libero Cinderace seems like a great pairing - Pyro Ball and Sucker Punch handle Aegi, Corv, Jirachi, and Mew, while Zen Headbutt with a EBelt or LO will 2HKO MaxD Pex that think they can come in on it. Stab U-Turn hits Mew hard, and can provide help get Hawlucha in. Court-Change is still an option to remove hazards for Hawlucha. While it's not hitting Mandibuzz super effectively, all you need is a little chip on it to put it in range for Hawlucha - even U-Turn is enough.
Cinderace+Hawlucha seems to only fall to Hippo(who you beat with TauntLucha anyway), who would get completely shut down by our new terrain setter Rillaboom who also should synergize well to take water attacks and counter ground types like Drill, while providing support via U-Turn forming a TurnCore with Cinderace, leech seed, and knock off.
My only problem is Grassy Terrain itself. While the passing healing is nice for your end, you don't want the mons you chipped down like Pex or Corv or Hippo to be healing back for the opponent. Are there any other new terrain setters coming back?
Libero Cinderace seems like an interesting partner for it. The only mons in the tier that aren't OHKO'd by +2 Acro or CC I believe are Aegi, Corv, Hippo, Bulky Jirachi, Mandibuzz, Mew, and Pex.
Terrain providing Unburden instead of Sky Attack+Herb opens a move slot for either Throat Chop or Taunt. Throat Chop handles Aegi, Taunt shuts down Hippo, so you can beat one or the other.
Libero Cinderace seems like a great pairing - Pyro Ball and Sucker Punch handle Aegi, Corv, Jirachi, and Mew, while Zen Headbutt with a EBelt or LO will 2HKO MaxD Pex that think they can come in on it. Stab U-Turn hits Mew hard, and can provide help get Hawlucha in. Court-Change is still an option to remove hazards for Hawlucha. While it's not hitting Mandibuzz super effectively, all you need is a little chip on it to put it in range for Hawlucha - even U-Turn is enough.
Cinderace+Hawlucha seems to only fall to Hippo(who you beat with TauntLucha anyway), who would get completely shut down by our new terrain setter Rillaboom who also should synergize well to take water attacks and counter ground types like Drill, while providing support via U-Turn forming a TurnCore with Cinderace, leech seed, and knock off.
My only problem is Grassy Terrain itself. While the passing healing is nice for your end, you don't want the mons you chipped down like Pex or Corv or Hippo to be healing back for the opponent. Are there any other new terrain setters coming back?
no fire move!!! the tech, reminding me of greninja
It doesn't really need a fire move, STAB doesn't matter and fire doesn't really give it good coverage.
yea thats true, that coverage is kinda good against the tier though
Let's remember to avoid one liners and posts lacking substance, thanks.
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick
I just used Libero Cinderace for the first time and honestly it is so good. I think a lot of the people using it initially and above posters tried different sets which perhaps where underwhelming, but the Bulk Up + 3A set is a very challenging Pokemon to deal with. Is it broken? I'm not sure. My answer is probably, but not enough to quick ban it, so it will hang around until DLC comes and then with things like Slowbro it will only be very good, if even.
Regardless of this timeline, Cinderace is experiencing a huge leap in viability and it is one of the most potent offensive threats in the tier right now. Zen Headbutt and High Jump Kick are so strong, Bulk Up allows for it to muscle past normal checks and counters, Pyro Ball is still great although it is only needed for Corviknight with Brave Bird whereas Sucker Punch hits Dragapult, and the base speed of Cinderace makes it superb in general. I urge everyone to give the above set a shot. Here is the team I am using with it, but I think Sucker Punch > Pyro Ball is equally viable, if not even better. For the fun of it, here is a replay showing that stall is not, in fact, broken without Dracovish in the tier: bop.
Rillaboom post hopefully coming tomorrow/later this week!
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick
I just used Libero Cinderace for the first time and honestly it is so good. I think a lot of the people using it initially and above posters tried different sets which perhaps where underwhelming, but the Bulk Up + 3A set is a very challenging Pokemon to deal with. Is it broken? I'm not sure. My answer is probably, but not enough to quick ban it, so it will hang around until DLC comes and then with things like Slowbro it will only be very good, if even.
Regardless of this timeline, Cinderace is experiencing a huge leap in viability and it is one of the most potent offensive threats in the tier right now. Zen Headbutt and High Jump Kick are so strong, Bulk Up allows for it to muscle past normal checks and counters, Pyro Ball is still great although it is only needed for Corviknight with Brave Bird whereas Sucker Punch hits Dragapult, and the base speed of Cinderace makes it superb in general. I urge everyone to give the above set a shot. Here is the team I am using with it, but I think Sucker Punch > Pyro Ball is equally viable, if not even better. For the fun of it, here is a replay showing that stall is not, in fact, broken without Dracovish in the tier: bop.
Rillaboom post hopefully coming tomorrow/later this week!
Assurance is something I've been trying on Bulk Up Cinderace.
If you are able to keep Rocks up, Assurance is effectively 120 BP if you force your opponent to switch, and most Ghosts are frail enough that you can kill them without having the doubled BP anyway.
The main benefit of Assurance over Sucker Punch is that it lets you proactively deal with Ghost and Psychic types, especially when many of these Pokemon do often run some form of non-attacking move like Substitute or a status move.
If you are able to keep Rocks up, Assurance is effectively 120 BP if you force your opponent to switch, and most Ghosts are frail enough that you can kill them without having the doubled BP anyway.
The main benefit of Assurance over Sucker Punch is that it lets you proactively deal with Ghost and Psychic types, especially when many of these Pokemon do often run some form of non-attacking move like Substitute or a status move.
Let's remember to avoid one liners and posts lacking substance, thanks.
Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Pyro Ball / Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick
I just used Libero Cinderace for the first time and honestly it is so good. I think a lot of the people using it initially and above posters tried different sets which perhaps where underwhelming, but the Bulk Up + 3A set is a very challenging Pokemon to deal with. Is it broken? I'm not sure. My answer is probably, but not enough to quick ban it, so it will hang around until DLC comes and then with things like Slowbro it will only be very good, if even.
Regardless of this timeline, Cinderace is experiencing a huge leap in viability and it is one of the most potent offensive threats in the tier right now. Zen Headbutt and High Jump Kick are so strong, Bulk Up allows for it to muscle past normal checks and counters, Pyro Ball is still great although it is only needed for Corviknight with Brave Bird whereas Sucker Punch hits Dragapult, and the base speed of Cinderace makes it superb in general. I urge everyone to give the above set a shot. Here is the team I am using with it, but I think Sucker Punch > Pyro Ball is equally viable, if not even better. For the fun of it, here is a replay showing that stall is not, in fact, broken without Dracovish in the tier: bop.
Rillaboom post hopefully coming tomorrow/later this week!
Bulk up + 3 attacks I started noticing on the ladder sometime yesterday, and it is pretty solid. It really seems to be Cinderace committing to the 4MSS (it either struggles with pult's sub + DD and WispHex sets, or it struggles with the various Aegis, depending on its set) and just letting its teammates work on the things its set struggles with.
This is actually an interesting pick - I think many people immediately dismiss these picks, but not being forced into a mindgame is nice.
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Assurance vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 344-408 (108.5 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Assurance vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So I've been recently been trying Expert Belt over Choice Band and honestly it's been being performing pretty solidly.
Cinderace @
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Low Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch / Bulk Up
So I've made 2 changes which I think helped pretty well with Cinderace, Expert Belt over CB to ease the prediction reliance, and Low Kick. I love how Expert Belt performs as it is still capable of breaking Ferropex and ClefCorv incredibly well while also being far less prediction relient than CB, which absolutely helps with matchups against more bulky teams since that means pivoting about Cinderace is much harder than with CB, and while I think HDB is by far the best item for Cinderace I think Expert Belt does a lot for it, for Low Kick however I've used that because of the fact that Cinderace is able to break through all of HJKs targets with Low Kick. Hydreigon, Bisharp and Kyurem consistently drop to it without risking losing 50% from missing HJK, which can be bad considering how easily worn down Cinderace gets to begin with and it can really make a difference when deciding if you win or lose a game because of that miss. Low Kick is a much more consistent and safe option in that regard in my opinion.
Cinderace @
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Low Kick
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch / Bulk Up
So I've made 2 changes which I think helped pretty well with Cinderace, Expert Belt over CB to ease the prediction reliance, and Low Kick. I love how Expert Belt performs as it is still capable of breaking Ferropex and ClefCorv incredibly well while also being far less prediction relient than CB, which absolutely helps with matchups against more bulky teams since that means pivoting about Cinderace is much harder than with CB, and while I think HDB is by far the best item for Cinderace I think Expert Belt does a lot for it, for Low Kick however I've used that because of the fact that Cinderace is able to break through all of HJKs targets with Low Kick. Hydreigon, Bisharp and Kyurem consistently drop to it without risking losing 50% from missing HJK, which can be bad considering how easily worn down Cinderace gets to begin with and it can really make a difference when deciding if you win or lose a game because of that miss. Low Kick is a much more consistent and safe option in that regard in my opinion.
Cinderace @ Lum Berry / Leftovers / HDB / Expert Belt
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Pyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
This might be a fun set to use, with Taunt crippling mons like Hippo, Pex, Clef and other Taunt users that might want to disturb you bulking up, and Zen Headbutt/Pyro Ball being good enough coverage to fuck up walls as well. I thought Lum berry might be a viable option due to it might be prone to Pex scalds or Will-O-Wisps from Hexapult, while after a Bulk up you guarantee 2HKO Pex with Zen Headbutt, while Expert Belt and LO are a near guaranteed 2HKO at +0, but might lose you some breaking power in the long run with Pex pivoting out. It can also shut down Wish Clefable really well, while at +1 you have a good chance of 2HKOing mons like Hydreigon and Kommo-o. Overall I think this is a rather niche set, but potentially with Spikes support you can put huge pressure on Defoggers and Spinners with the combination of Taunt and Bulk Up. However, the 4 moveslot syndrome is really hurting it ofcourse, however this set seems rather fun with few good checks due to the good coverage of Fire/Psychic (TTar, Incineroar are the two that come to mind that resist this, but nobody is going to switch in these mons on a potential HJK set).
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Expert Belt Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 148-174 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Expert Belt Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 454-535 (129.3 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 349-412 (88.5 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Expert Belt Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 281-331 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Let me know what you think though.
I've been messing around with potential Ferro spreads now that it no longer needs to take ~50% from Vish, so I thought I'd put a little compendium here of some potential benchmarks to aim for:
Edit: typoed lol Ferro definitely doesn’t avoid a 2hko from +1 clef
- 252 HP / 252+ Def / 4 SpD - Physically Defensive, best MU versus Rhyperior and Excadrill
- 252 HP / 88+ Def / 168 SpD - Hits defense jump point; hits no specific defensive benchmark but provides solid overall bulk with slight physical bias
- 252 HP / 60+ Def / 196 SpD - avoids OHKO from +1 Lefties Clef Flamethrower
- 252 HP / 124 Def / 132+ SpD - near-perfectly balanced defenses, avoids 2HKO from Timid Specs Kyurem Ice Beam if SR isn't on the field—best when paired with a Water-type that can make it choose between Freeze Dry/Ice Beam, and make sure you have at least one of Steel-/Fighting-type coverage or Knock Off if you run this
- 252 HP / 4 Def / 252+ SpD - Specially defensive, best MU versus Kyurem (almost always avoids 2HKO from Timid Specs Ice Beam after SR)
Edit: typoed lol Ferro definitely doesn’t avoid a 2hko from +1 clef
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