Headlines “Politics” [read the OP before posting]

[OldM8]

Here's my take on the so-called progressive voter's dilemma. That is, when both parties are bad, should you vote for the least bad or not at all?

The only form of systemic power we as working class individuals have is our ability to vote. Whether you like it or not, one of two parties is going to be in control of America after this election. Therefore, you absolutely owe it to yourself and everybody else to vote for the one that is most likely to enact positive change. Even if both parties are bad, you should always vote for the least bad, because it makes further progress easier. There are unfortunately too many people on the left who give in to despair and think "The system is rigged, we can never win, a vote for either party is a vote for the system itself". This is self-destructive thinking and is exactly what the elite wants you to feel. They want you to feel powerless and fragmented so that you will disengage and stop the struggle for a better, fairer world.

Meaningful progress under Trump and his administration is guaranteed to be nearly impossible, because they have openly denounced socialist values as being fundamentally "un-American". To them, the working class are nothing more than disposal tools to help the ruling class generate ever-increasing profits. By not opposing his rule by voting for the only alternative, you are giving his governance your approval. That's how our system, as flawed and corrupt as it is, works. Attempting to vote him out is better than just staying home. If you believe voting is pointless and that alternative action is the only way forward, there is no good reason you can't do both.

The only thing that can liberate the working class people of america is a socialist revolution. This will be much easier under a democrat lead america than a republican one. The leaders of the democratic party are soft and weak, which is exactly what we want. Trump has shown that he is eager to use military intervention to squash protestors, occupiers and those who fight against the evils of capitalism, whereas the mayors of democratic cities for example, have shown a surprising amount of leniency towards them. The people of the left need to think much more strategically about the way they vote, and remember lessons learned from history: a revolution is always a process with a strategic build-up, not a single spontaneous event. Whenever something can inch us closer, we should always take that opportunity.

 

[Tenshi]

Here's my take on the so-called progressive voter's dilemma. That is, when both parties are bad, should you vote for the least bad or not at all?

(this isn't a direct response to what you said specifically but you were just the last response so I'm piggy backing a bit don't mind me)
advocating a 3rd party on a smogon thread lord what fire will this strike.
The "lesser of two evils" thought process is honestly harmful to our democracy and actively plays into how the American citizen's vote has been devalued and locked into believing that the republicans and democrats are our only choices when they're quite literally not. (as much as they try to silence others from competing with them) Americans need to realize that complacency isn't what causes change to happen. It just happens that this election there's currently only one candidate who's advocating for: criminal justice reform(legalizing marijuana and pardoning victimless crimes to address the fact of the sheer number of people we have locked away for minor crimes), demilitarizing the police (because they shouldn't have fucking tanks to begin with), ending qualified immunity, addressing how grants and federal funding has led to the national student debt crisis(via higher tuition caused by inflation), and importantly for me bringing the troops out of countries we don't need to be in(and ending the fucking miserable failure the war on drugs has been) and that's not Trump and certainly not Biden electing a cop for VP lol. Jo Jorgensen is really the only option I see as a fair chance to get out of this polarization we have as a country but with how much 3rd party propaganda has been spewed out I have doubts she'll get far without making it to the debate stage which seems pretty slim at this point. In terms of being a 3rd party option her platform is the biggest, she's very close to being on all 50 states as of 8/22/2020, she's on DC's and 46 of the states with 3 pending approval and not currently on Rhode Island's.
Also contrary to what people say that libertarian(or 3rd party in general) votes take votes from the democratic candidate, libertarian votes historically more often took from republican votes so we are in fact taking votes away from Trump if anyone(which is in of itself a bold claim because you're assuming that if they didn't vote libertarian they would vote biden/trump or vote at all) but I mean it's not surprising since the Republican party has significantly expanded the power of government, we've certainly seen it with Trump.( https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-take-hits-third-party-candidates/3339022001/ )

The only thing that can liberate the working class people of america is a socialist revolution.

The only thing that can get America out of the shit hole is if we end the duopoly that the dems and reps have crafted for the past many decades, the last 3rd party candidate Ross Pirot(an independent) that got into a nonpartisan debate (which was a debate before the inception of the bipartisan CDE) he got 19% of the popular vote in 1992 against George Bush and Bill Clinton which shows that there is definitely support when they're able to get their voices heard over the censorship. Of course since then the CPD has since raised the threshold to get on the debate stage to 15% and actively removed non dem/rep candidate names off of national polls(classic rep, dem or undecided) but that voter suppression is a story for a whole other day.

In all reality there are only two ways to waste your vote 1. voting on someone or a platform that doesn't support your beliefs and 2. not voting. The whole idea that voting 3rd party is a waste of a vote is such a propagandist lie, an extremely complacent one at that. You vote for your ideals, not for a "lesser evil"

Yikes I spent way too long writing this, I was just peeping at here and figured to put my 2 cents in since it's the first election I'm able to vote in,
I always liked the lesser of two evils thing I hear a lot this and last election, what's that one quote about the definition of insanity?
Also the opinion that conservatism and racism is the same is just extremely funny to me but again, you believe what you believe in honey.
In summary since I'll hopefully forget I ever posted here the only way change will actually happen in this country is if you vote for what you actually believe in be it dem, rep, green, libertarian, or independent. The point of a democracy is that we don't settle for the lesser evil because we don't settle for evils at all and don't let them get in power but we have to vote to reflect that, that's kinda the whole shtick about it even though it has largely been corrupted by this point because America is a joke. :^)

 

[HailFall]

In the amount of time it would take to make the necessary changes to "fix" the American political system we'll probably all be dead from climate change. Revolution isn't an option either, as the American military could easily blow any rebels off the face of the earth. Really all we can do is try to make the most of whatever time we have left by voting for whoever will do the least harm

 

[lilyhollow]

Revolution isn't an option either, as the American military could easily blow any rebels off the face of the earth.

I mean it's not all about military strength; if the government just starts killing people they risk intolerable things happening (like a general strike, more support for the uprisings, etc). A revolution can succeed under the right conditions, but we are seemingly a ways off from this, in part because Americans are so housebroken that they're completely convinced that violence "is not the answer" and that "the only thing we can do is vote," as the last few posts in this thread have shown.

I think it is important moving forward for more people to understand that "voting is super important/the only real way we can effect change" is like straight up propaganda.

 

[Myzozoa]

The american military is imo more leftwing than it probably has ever been including during vietnam but you know I wasn't alive so can't really say. There has never been a better time for to do direct action without fear that the military is going to squash your movement. Now there is ICE and Border Patrol but they probably aren't so well-equipped that they can't be outmaneuvered like a regressive American army navy airforce etc would be, for now. As for whether it is better for to have a centrist democrat than a republican I think it's hard to make the case that the democrats are better for your direct actions than the republicans, especially as it regards climate change timelines. The centrists democrats love shitting on the leftwing, it's like their favorite past time since after Jimmy Carter probably. I know these people, my own family members among them, they're democrats but since they're also ceos or 'ceo adjacent', they can totally get behind trump sending ICE and Border Patrol to crush the peasant uprising so they'll get back to working for starvation wages or starving from lack of wages. They don't want to pay workers more or pay more taxes lol. wtf would make you think they want to help you if you're a poor person?

As we saw under Obama, a lot of ppl choose not to make the time or whatever to be engaged when it comes to pressuring centrist democrats into doing anything. There will be backsliding, there will be people breathing their sighs of relief and going 'aaah now that we have democrats running things surely there is nothing bad going on' and this is exactly how we die from climate change and the future mike pence on steroids, hand maids tale style dictator. The centrist democrats do nothing for the masses and then they become peons in fertility cults run by rich private citizens who will provide material sustenance to them and use the opportunity to feed them an ideology. At the same time as liberals disengage from scrutinizing their leaders, those leaders will be shitting on the masses and getting them worked up to vote for trump 2.0 and then we're dead. The winners will be the ceos and the type that has bought and paid for both parties to do this dance to trick the masses into consenting to their own demise.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

The only thing that can liberate the working class people of america is a socialist revolution. This will be much easier under a democrat lead america than a republican one. The leaders of the democratic party are soft and weak, which is exactly what we want.

Is this true? I don't think it is. I think a majority of the country has actually realized that something is "wrong" with America right now, if only that trump is a constant source of bad news. People constantly tell me that they want america to go "back to normal", normal being working a cushy office job while billionaires rape the country's natural resources, bomb middle eastern kids, drag black people into jail for marijuana, and slaughter poor income families with healthcare debt.

Biden has already rolled out the excuse that the deficit is too high to help people and implement these kind of socialist programs. Why is this status quo acceptable? Trump might be the "worst president in history" but we certainly haven't had a "good" one since....what, fdr? If biden's administration lulls the "middle class" back to sleep for another 8 years of decreased wages, increased home prices, increased student debt, increased health care costs, then he will have done more damage, in raw # of dead Americans, than trump ever has.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

For the record I made my post knowing full well it would be infracted, and it was.

I made it regardless for the reasons Von has laid out. In this case, with this user, what I said needed to be said.


As you say that is not a form of dialogue that should be accepted on this site, nor is my post something that should be allowed on principle. That said, knowing when stepping over the line is necessary is as important as knowing why the line exists in the first place.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

If serious uprisings happened in America, I would be much more afraid of the police than the military. The military is trained under strict rules of engagement, is constantly indoctrinated that their work protects Americans, and undergo serious discipline and training. I am not confident that the military would largely accept orders to wage war against American citizens.

On the other hand, as we've seen from the Floyd protests, the police seem to revel in committing war crimes against peaceful protestors, are indoctrinated to believe in solidarity with each other rather than the people they theoretically serve (the thin blue line, etc), and have faced minimal pushback from the mayors who technically supervise them.

This isn't a defense of the military/empire/anything of the sort, just that I believe the police - which is absolutely a paramilitary force - would revel in attacking an uprising while the military may not be.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I believe the police - which is absolutely a paramilitary force - would revel in attacking an uprising while the military may not be.

open for epic racism

 

[nui]

ACAB

 

[teal6]

In the amount of time it would take to make the necessary changes to "fix" the American political system we'll probably all be dead from climate change. Revolution isn't an option either, as the American military could easily blow any rebels off the face of the earth. Really all we can do is try to make the most of whatever time we have left by voting for whoever will do the least harm

As a friend of mine said to me in the depths of my despair recently, there is still enough time to create a society that we regret losing when climate change takes it away.

 

[OldM8]

The "lesser of two evils" thought process is honestly harmful to our democracy and actively plays into how the American citizen's vote has been devalued and locked into believing that the republicans and democrats are our only choices when they're quite literally not. The only thing that can get America out of the shit hole is if we end the duopoly that the dems and reps have crafted for the past many decades.

I'm all for trying to end the duopoly through new parties and independent runners, the main problem is that right now no such viable options actually exist.

There are also many barriers in place preventing 3rd parties from gaining relevence, for instance they will always receive much less coverage than the two established ones since they will always have far less funding and other important resources. The FPTP voting system itself also serves as a major obstacle to the effectiveness of 3rd parties in practice since it usually makes it so that a vote for your most preferred party actually works out to be a vote for your least preferred party. It's no accident that literally every single FPTP country in the world has devolved into a two party system, because it's guaranteed by design.

In any case, it will probably take too long for any 3rd party or alternative candidate to amass enough momentum and by then the damage has already been done. American workers are on the brink right now and we can't take this for much longer.

 

[Ginger Princess]

Oh boi, I can't wait to watch the debate between the senile right wing candidate and the senile fascist candidate

person, woman, man, camera, TV

edit: As I am a primarily progressively-leaning individual, Biden legitimizing Bernie on a policy level with the Biden-Sanders combined platform is honestly the only thing I’m excited about, besides kicking out fascists. I am definitely not looking forward to 2024, when a Trump like candidate probably runs again, regardless if Trump wins or loses this year, and having them face off Biden or Kamala. The only reason Biden is winning right now is because everyone wants to kick Trump out, not because Biden makes people enthusiastic, besides maybe the lofty idea of having a marginally-competent leader again. When Biden, who will get even older and less centered in reality, has to fight probably a more refined, possibly younger Trump-like candidate, it will be a slaughter, if Biden hasn’t brought back our economy and solved the many social issues still plaguing this nation (most of which he considers non-issues, and some of which he played a role in making worse). Then, post 2024, we will have a candidate with Trump’s anti-democratic agenda who can actually operate effectively. And then we’re fucked- If Biden dies of old age in office, Kamala will be up, and I would like to hope that a woman of color could single handedly win a national American election, but. Uh. No. Not yet, anyway. There goes the midwest and would throw states like Virginia and NC into contention. Maybe she could flip Texas, if the demographic shifts continue to favor Democrats, but thats still a long shot.

This is pretty Doomer rhetoric but the Democrats lose whenever they run noncontroversial, respectful candidates, versus the comparatively ‘red-blooded, edgy’ Republican candidates. Both Biden and Kamala at this current time seem to fit that bill. Maybe Kamala can act like Obama in 2024, which pho-radical policy proposal, messages of hope, with a strong economy to support her, but it still seems difficult.

This all assumes there isn’t any massive voter reform that changes fundamentally the way we vote for candidates in the US. Thats been growing in popularity but it needs a movement still, it has general support in the politically charged left-leaning communities, but not the apathetic moderate population.

 

[G-Luke]

Prefacing this by saying that I am not an American citizen nor have I ever been in America, so no I won't be voting.

I haven't seen any discussions from either side regarding Trump's new second term agenda

Its pretty clear from this campaign that Trump is doubling down on his nasty racist persona, and this in addition to his recent action against the postal system leaves the US Government a skip away from being a Fascist regime.

 

[JTD783]

Prefacing this by saying that I am not an American citizen nor have I ever been in America, so no I won't be voting.

I haven't seen any discussions from either side regarding Trump's new second term agendaView attachment 271420View attachment 271421View attachment 271422

Its pretty clear from this campaign that Trump is doubling down on his nasty racist persona, and this in addition to his recent action against the postal system leaves the US Government a skip away from being a Fascist regime.

What part of the agenda is nasty and racist?

In addition, what specific parts of the agenda do you believe is bad? Plenty of it, such as dismantling human trafficking networks, cleaning up oceans, stopping “endless wars”, cutting prescription drug prices, and passing congressional term limits are supported by most Americans regardless of party affiliation as far as I know.

 

[OldM8]

In addition, what specific parts of the agenda do you believe is bad?

Most of Trumps policies are vague and give him way too much room to screw people over while still delivering on them.

Create 10 million new jobs in 10 months

What kind of jobs? Crappy, insecure, low-paying ones that will be gone again in a years time?

Cut taxes to increase take-home pay and keep jobs in America

Cut taxes for who? The working and middle class, or the rich again in hopes that they will pass some of that on to their employees? And with taxes cut, will this be another excuse to cut spending on important public services?

Teach American exceptionalism

Yay, more right-wing indoctrination for our kids.

Fully fund and hire more police officers and law enforcement officers

Doubling down on police militarization and expansion in what is already the most incarcerated nation on the planet.

Increase criminal penalties for assaults on law enforcment officers

To hit citizens harder if they try to resist dubious and unlawful arrests from a group with increasingly insane powers and protections.

Bring violent extremist groups like ANTIFA to justice

In other words, attempt to crush all resistance to his regime.

If you still take any of Trumps pitches seriously and at face value after seeing where his four years have gotten us, I really don't know what else to say.

 

[Tmi489]

if trump actually did drain the swamp then maybe

What part of the agenda is nasty and racist?

hate to say it

(hint; china is still too economically powerful to stay away from)

Yay, more right-wing indoctrination for our kids.

implying education isnt already leftwing?
i really hate this sentiment

In other words, attempt to crush all resistance to his regime.

 

[G-Luke]

What part of the agenda is nasty and racist?

In addition, what specific parts of the agenda do you believe is bad? Plenty of it, such as dismantling human trafficking networks, cleaning up oceans, stopping “endless wars”, cutting prescription drug prices, and passing congressional term limits are supported by most Americans regardless of party affiliation as far as I know.

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to realise that his talking points about treating Drive-By shootings as acts of Domestic Terrorism and ending cashless bail specifically targets minority groups who are much more likely to be involved in these criminal acts and are much more likely to be too poor to able to afford to pay bail. Its blatantly targeting crime statistics that heavily lean towards particular ethnic groups / races. Its basically all just a rather poorly disguised dog-whistle to jail up minorities.

Also just...read his stance on Immigrants. Outside of his noble stance on human trafficking, its a set of "policies" designed to alienate anyone who wants to immigrate to the country.

Don't get me started on his "stopping endless wars" tirade btw, which is not only vague as hell, but is also contradictory, seeing that he wants to wipe out Global Terrorists, and expand the US military's presence, while also recalling all army men from abroad?????

 

[vonFiedler]

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to realise that his talking points about treating Drive-By shootings as acts of Domestic Terrorism and ending cashless bail specifically targets minority groups who are much more likely to be involved in these criminal acts and are much more likely to be too poor to able to afford to pay bail. Its blatantly targeting crime statistics that heavily lean towards particular ethnic groups / races. Its basically all just a rather poorly disguised dog-whistle to jail up minorities.

Even more than the driveby thing targeting minorities is the propaganda implications behind it. Drivebys are awful crimes that deserve to be punished, but domestic terrorism is currently a problem with white supremacists, and attempts to brand antifa and gangs as terrorists is only to distract us from who the real enemies of America are.

 

[Tenshi]

Kinda funny that Trump is aiming to "stop endless wars and bring our troops home" when the only time he has ever returned troops was recently in Germany because "they were not paying their bills" how noble :|

I'm a strong advocate for bringing the troops home but hearing it from Trump after these past 4 years is kinda hilarious with how contradictory it is. It's not even something that needs congress approval to return the troops unlike sending them out(unlike how the president needs to give them a 48 hour notice to deploy them) so there's no real reason and it just sounds like empty words to me.

 

[Tory]

No way, Giant Asteroid must win this year.

 

[G-Luke]

No way, Giant Asteroid must win this year.
View attachment 271575

Americans really electing another politician with world shaking consequences

 

[BLINGAS]

implying education isnt already leftwing?
i really hate this sentiment

i've never understood this line. like yea you can make the argument that university is pretty left wing, but thats more due to the fact that you're actually living as a human for the first time and you realize how fucked up shit is, not because of what they teach you.

but as for fucking grade school? that shit (mostly history classes) is the most effective propaganda a state could ask for. You get maybe one or two years of world history (which translates into a tiny bit of ancient civilizations, and then just a bunch of european history). Then the rest of the time you spend learning about the foundation of america, and maybe some local state history early on. Throughout all of that time spent on America, the only thing you'll learn that we did bad was our treatment of native tribes and slavery. You learn about the start of america, civil war, then the world wars, with some events like the great depression and so on in between. You don't learn about overseas imperialism, you don't go too heavily into race relations post civil war. Most importantly you don't learn enough about the cold war or literally just like the last ~60 years of history in this class, because you basically run out of time because a school year/class is only so long.

basically what im saying with this useless rant is how can school be left wing if you don't even learn about the left wing? I laughed pretty hard when I saw in this thread that trump wants to teach american exceptionalism in class, as if that isn't whats already taught.

 

[Tmi489]

i've never understood this line. like yea you can make the argument that university is pretty left wing, but thats more due to the fact that you're actually living as a human for the first time and you realize how fucked up shit is, not because of what they teach you.

left wing bias on my part. that my personal experience was relatively left + parrotting
more "successful" states in terms of education -> college are lefty?
ig global warming but thats proven to happen and should be 'fixed'

 

[vonFiedler]

i've never understood this line. like yea you can make the argument that university is pretty left wing, but thats more due to the fact that you're actually living as a human for the first time and you realize how fucked up shit is, not because of what they teach you.

The college I'm going to is absolutely left wing, what with half its general classes being about race and the other half being about global warming.

What's obnoxious is that this is somehow "indoctrination". I thought conservatives were allegedly all about free debate and hearing multiple sources? Surely a few general classes couldn't erase years of primary school propaganda and bad parenting just with facts and logic. It's jealousy, the conservative media and alt-right trash tube would rather have their hooks in you and so must do what they do best, lie and pretend that college is some sort of 1984 torture brainwash.