Headlines “Politics” [read the OP before posting]

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Myzozoa

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do you have an argument to make somewhere or are you going to just bluster on and on and call ppl names? the neoliberals of the democratic party have directly enabled fascism and authoritarianism as embodied in the Trump administration, this is incontrovertible. doxxing fascists is fantastic, but trying to build a strong movement as an alternative to authoritarianism is entirely different than hunting down a proud boy's facebook page. I feel no need to qualify myself in these matters, particularly to someone who has admitted to neither attending nor organizing protests in america. no one is saying that the neolibs are the one 'true enemy', but they need to be pressured into taking substantive action and deviating from their policies that directly enable and build the infrastructures of authoritarianism. I'm not even saying to not vote for biden or to vote for a 3rd party, this is because when/if Biden is elected his administration will still need to be externally pressured by leftists (and anyone adjacent) into taking severe actions against the threat of white supremacists and fascists. If trump is re-elected or denies the result through the courts or through a violent seizing of power and jailing of opponents, it will still be leftists who bear these consequences for organizing resistance to the regime. It isn't difficult to see the difference between this and the KPD's disastrous venture with accelerationism unless it's actually you thats the one beating off to an online performance of leftism.
 
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quziel

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There are more important implications from this. The story shows that he has in the area of 450 million dollars in debt due within the next 4 years, aka the prospective term of his presidency if elected again (using a motherjones link because its what google found me and paywalls suck). Yes, he didn't pay much tax, but that is because he, his organization, and his family are in tremendous amounts of debt, which is doubly important because his organization is how he pays his children.

I should not need to spell this out, but this debt presents an enormous conflict of interest, and the idea that a foreign nation could essentially buy the nation for 450 million is very worrying.

Edit: Yes, he does have billions of dollars in assets, but most are illiquid, meaning that he's still in a fairly dire position.
 
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I thought it started off with Trump pounding him, then it became excessive. Also, I think Trump blatantly forgot Biden had another son who died in the military.. Don't think this debate will change anyones opinion. Can't wait for the next 2!
 

Tenshi

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Debates will always be a waste of time until theres a third seat tbh, at least theyre the only entertaining part of the election year at any rate.
 

Bughouse

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Going beyond just the presidential election to most all US elections these days, the entire concept of debates became outmoded whenever negative partisanship became the predominant paradigm.
There's just relatively few people in any election these days who are genuinely persuadable, and it's not at all clear that a debate is what even persuades them.

That's not to say that I don't think debates should happen because in an ideal world they WOULD actually be high quality, high leverage affairs that actually can swing an election, and at least in the case of the presidential election you need to plan for them well in advance of knowing what the temperature of the election will be. After all, it wasn't that long ago that we had more important debates that actually swung the election.

I just don't really get bemoaning how useless tonight's debate was. Like... what did you expect?
 
Trumps response to climate change was abysmal, going off on a stupid tangent about the California fires and how we can basically ignore climate change if we just scrape the crud off our forest floors. Biden on the other hand at least spelled out a plan to get us off fossil fuels within a definitive timeframe, reduce the cost of energy and create thousands of high paying green jobs. Trump did nothing but dodge questions, hurl insults and talk over both his opponent and the moderator like an angry child. He's a true embarrassment and proof that our system and society desperately needs fundamental change.
 
I just thought that it was funny that Trump is seemingly running the same strategy as he did with hillary almost as if he wasn't already president for 4 years. I think Biden could have been stronger, but overall he didn't need to do much as the frontrunner while as Trump NEEDED to win and he definitely didn't do that. Polls are favoring Biden with most people coming out of the debate a lot more "positive" with Biden and it's clear that the trump team need to rethink their approach.

You can't sneak a win this time, people know what a Trump presidency is like now. The Trump administrations approach on Covid and the protests are catastrophic and people more and more just want a crumb a normalcy again and a lot more people are turning to Biden to get them back there no matter what his situation is.

I knew this was gonna be bad when Wallace told Trump that we can "switch seats" if he's gonna interrupt and not listen to him we gotta mute these mics man lol
 
The debate was a predictable disaster. Trump is a total clown. Biden wins by default. Anything with a pulse looks more Presidential than Trump. Trump needed a win badly to change the trajectory of the race, but that really is a Hail Mary. Debates don’t persuade voters.
 
Hi

I see here a pretty clear consensus about the fact that Donald Trump is a complete clown and that his arrival to power is a pure disaster. What makes him so obviously bad ? Why was he elected ? As a frenchman I'm not really up to date with American politics so an answer would help me a lot.

There seem to be two levels of debate when it comes to American elections.
- The first one, which seems to be the main topic debated here, is about political actions, program, promises kept or not.
- The second one, more taboo maybe, is about intentions. I'm saying that because the idea of a "Deep State" and even more controversial statements are the most powerful arguments I've seen from the french Trump supporters (or more precisely from the Democrats haters).

This second one might make some of you laugh but it's a lot more important than the first one. If Trump is fighting some kind of deep state driven by global banking and mediatic forces (or the militaro-industrial complex or whichever of the multiple names one can give it) that support Joe Biden for their own interest, then he must be supported even if he's not very competent. If there is no such criminal organization and only a magma of interests, then and only then does the first level of debate make sense.

I'm saying that because when I talk to Trump supporters they very often argue on the second level : "Trump is a true patriot and wants to save the USA from powerful mafias" ; while when I talk to Trump haters it's so obvious to them that those "mafias" don't exist that they mostly argue on the first level : "Trump did that wrong, his foreign policy makes no sense etc.".

I'm not supporting Trump or Biden here really, I'm just saying that the best way to make someone change their mind is probably on the second level of debate and not on the first one ; because a trumpist won't change his mind if you show him how badly Trump handles climate change.
 

Hipmonlee

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I'm saying that because when I talk to Trump supporters they very often argue on the second level : "Trump is a true patriot and wants to save the USA from powerful mafias" ; while when I talk to Trump haters it's so obvious to them that those "mafias" don't exist that they mostly argue on the first level : "Trump did that wrong, his foreign policy makes no sense etc.".

I'm not supporting Trump or Biden here really, I'm just saying that the best way to make someone change their mind is probably on the second level of debate and not on the first one ; because a trumpist won't change his mind if you show him how badly Trump handles climate change.
In as far as these Mafias are real, Trump is their biggest supporter.

But that isnt a particularly useful tool for convincing most Trump supporters anyway, because they arent engaging in good faith. They are acting out of resentment and they think they found a guy who hates the same stuff as them (caveats around broad brushes here). I have no better advice to give you on how to convince fascists to not be fascist than: dont bother, it's just better to convince everyone else to ignore them.
 
Hi

I see here a pretty clear consensus about the fact that Donald Trump is a complete clown and that his arrival to power is a pure disaster. What makes him so obviously bad ? Why was he elected ? As a frenchman I'm not really up to date with American politics so an answer would help me a lot.

There seem to be two levels of debate when it comes to American elections.
- The first one, which seems to be the main topic debated here, is about political actions, program, promises kept or not.
- The second one, more taboo maybe, is about intentions. I'm saying that because the idea of a "Deep State" and even more controversial statements are the most powerful arguments I've seen from the french Trump supporters (or more precisely from the Democrats haters).

This second one might make some of you laugh but it's a lot more important than the first one. If Trump is fighting some kind of deep state driven by global banking and mediatic forces (or the militaro-industrial complex or whichever of the multiple names one can give it) that support Joe Biden for their own interest, then he must be supported even if he's not very competent. If there is no such criminal organization and only a magma of interests, then and only then does the first level of debate make sense.

I'm saying that because when I talk to Trump supporters they very often argue on the second level : "Trump is a true patriot and wants to save the USA from powerful mafias" ; while when I talk to Trump haters it's so obvious to them that those "mafias" don't exist that they mostly argue on the first level : "Trump did that wrong, his foreign policy makes no sense etc.".

I'm not supporting Trump or Biden here really, I'm just saying that the best way to make someone change their mind is probably on the second level of debate and not on the first one ; because a trumpist won't change his mind if you show him how badly Trump handles climate change.
Trump was elected in part because he took risks people weren’t willing to (see the Republican primary debates for 2016) and ran to the left on trade/endless wars (bullshit, of course, but he sold it as a first time candidate). He also ran against a really unpopular candidate in the general and had governors in swing states (this one is probably the least important of those), I also think new right ideologies had a resurgence in 2015 but a lot of the mechanisms enabling him (fox, the courts, mcconnells senate since 2014 etc) have been around for a while. I agree with your analysis almost entirely, feel like his supporters do ascribe intentions to trump wrt the second point despite not actually doing that stuff
 
- The second one, more taboo maybe, is about intentions. I'm saying that because the idea of a "Deep State" and even more controversial statements are the most powerful arguments I've seen from the french Trump supporters (or more precisely from the Democrats haters).

This second one might make some of you laugh but it's a lot more important than the first one. If Trump is fighting some kind of deep state driven by global banking and mediatic forces (or the militaro-industrial complex or whichever of the multiple names one can give it) that support Joe Biden for their own interest, then he must be supported even if he's not very competent. If there is no such criminal organization and only a magma of interests, then and only then does the first level of debate make sense.
for me the ideal to "drain the swamp" back in the first election would be pretty promising
until he didnt and just brought ceos to his ranks, which tbf is pretty expected
 
This second one might make some of you laugh but it's a lot more important than the first one. If Trump is fighting some kind of deep state driven by global banking and mediatic forces (or the militaro-industrial complex or whichever of the multiple names one can give it) that support Joe Biden for their own interest, then he must be supported even if he's not very competent.
Isn't this an anti-semitic conspiracy theory?
 

Chou Toshio

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Hi

I see here a pretty clear consensus about the fact that Donald Trump is a complete clown and that his arrival to power is a pure disaster. What makes him so obviously bad ? Why was he elected ? As a frenchman I'm not really up to date with American politics so an answer would help me a lot.

There seem to be two levels of debate when it comes to American elections.
- The first one, which seems to be the main topic debated here, is about political actions, program, promises kept or not.
- The second one, more taboo maybe, is about intentions. I'm saying that because the idea of a "Deep State" and even more controversial statements are the most powerful arguments I've seen from the french Trump supporters (or more precisely from the Democrats haters).

This second one might make some of you laugh but it's a lot more important than the first one. If Trump is fighting some kind of deep state driven by global banking and mediatic forces (or the militaro-industrial complex or whichever of the multiple names one can give it) that support Joe Biden for their own interest, then he must be supported even if he's not very competent. If there is no such criminal organization and only a magma of interests, then and only then does the first level of debate make sense.

I'm saying that because when I talk to Trump supporters they very often argue on the second level : "Trump is a true patriot and wants to save the USA from powerful mafias" ; while when I talk to Trump haters it's so obvious to them that those "mafias" don't exist that they mostly argue on the first level : "Trump did that wrong, his foreign policy makes no sense etc.".

I'm not supporting Trump or Biden here really, I'm just saying that the best way to make someone change their mind is probably on the second level of debate and not on the first one ; because a trumpist won't change his mind if you show him how badly Trump handles climate change.
The left believes in a deep state. The names are "The donor class," "Military Industrial Complex," "Intelligence Community," etc. etc.-- the encompassing name the left would use is, "The Oligarchs." Basically those controlling the amalgam of the most powerful forces in the US/World. From the left's perspective, whether those interests are organized or not (but they are) it doesn't really matter because aligned interests make them act organized regardless. You treat it as a real thing either way.

Also regardless, Trump is in no way fighting those forces. Those forces dislike Trump over Biden because the bafoon just says shit out loud "Of course I took the oil!" The oligarchs will be served either way, but Trump does it in a clumsy fashion, sometimes spills the beans, makes them look like jack-asses, and sometimes flips them the bird just for show.

Either way, there is no convincing argument to keep Trump at level 2 either. For the reason TMI said-- he's not going to drain the swamp.
 
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