Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
:bw/Weepinbell: :bw/Lickilicky: :ss/sirfetch
Why do so many Pokemon learn Slam at a ridiculously high level? This has been a thing since Gen 1, and while it's gotten a little better, Sirfetch'd learns it at L50 and Lickilicky had the learn threshold ruined, which undermines the entire thing.

For those fortunate enough to not know what this horrible excuse for a move is, it's an 80 Base Power Normal-type move with 75 Accuracy and no additional effect. You shall now ask "Plaaaague isn't that Body Slam but completely gutted?", and be absolutely right. It's been like this since Gen 1, never seeing any improvement. If anything at all, the animation has only seemed to worsen.

I have no idea why Game Freak treats Slam like some godsend of a move, as the levels some Pokemon learn it are obnoxious. Weepinbell initially learned it at L49, then in Gen 2, they increased it to L54! Why?! Hell, Lickilicky, a Pokemon learning it at L29 since its inception, is forced to learn it at L48 in Gen 8. This horrible, almost irredeemable move, is given as a "reward" for keeping these Pokemon for so long.

Now, you can say that some Pokemon do in fact learn Slam very early. Indeed, Azurill has history of learning it before even L20. That's kind of what I want to see, as the move is literally useless by the time many Pokemon can actually get it, outclassed by STAB and consistency.

Also, reminder that Pursuit was removed while GF kept Slam in the game. Just putting it out there.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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Kinda offtopic but I always thought Lickitung slam you with their tongues. And use Cut with their tongues as well. (I mean, those chubby arms aren't going to do the job)

Edit: had to check in Bulbapedia and YES, they use the tongue for using Slam
Well that's what Slam's description says: "The target is slammed with a long tail, vines, or the like to inflict damage."

So generally we got:
Long Body: Ekans family, Onix family, Dratini/Dragonair, Serperior, Silicobra family, Sizzlepede family,
Long Tail: Pikachu family, Seel family, Dragonite, Sentret family, Marill family, Wooper family, Aipom family, Treecko family, Snivy/Servine, Patrat family, Galarian Yamask, Minccino family, Dracozolt, Arctozolt
Long Vine: Bellsprout family, Tangela family, Carnivine
Tool Assisted: Galarian Farfetch'd family (leek), Timburr (timber), Gurdurr (girder), Conkeldurr (concrete slabs), Komala (log), Dhelmise (anchor and/or chain), Grookey family (drum stick)
Long Trunk: Phanpy family, Cufant family
Ling Fins/Flippers: Mantine family, Tirtouga family

And unique we got:
Krabby family: It's pincers.
Lickitung family: It's tongue.
Omanyte family: It's tentacles.
Sudowoodo family: Either it's bark body or pretends to use its arms like they were branches.
Mawile: It's back jaws.
Tropius: Either it's wings or head.
Cranidos: It's head I guess?
Deino family: Their heads? Though Hydreigon could use its tail.
Rungerigus: While it could still use its tail like Galarian Yamask, it does have other long appendages with chunks of stone hanging off them it could use instead. Or it could just use its entire body.

A few things to note:
  • Despite it specifically mentioned a "long vine" as one way to use the move, only 6 Pokemon would do so. And it's not like there aren't other vine-based moves: from Vine Whip we're missing the Bulbasaur family, Chikorita family, Pansage family, Chespin family, Flabebe family, Skiddo family, Comfey, and Zarude. From Power Whip we're missing Exeggutor (& Alolan Exeggutor), Gyarados, Roserade family, Ferrothorn, Palpitoad/Seismitoad, Goodra, Gourgeist, Tsareena, Xurkitree, Hatterene, & Grimmsnarl.
  • Odd Krabby gets it cause of its pincers though not all the other Pokemon with pincers such as the Paras family, Gligar family, Scizor, Corphish family, Drapion, Dwebble family, Clauncher family, Crabrawler family, & Guzzlord.
  • Lickitung may be famous for its tongue but there's a few other Pokemon which have notable tongues too: Haunter, Kecleon, Greninja (I'll give them a pass on Heatmor on the point its tongue is made of fire).
  • Omanyte gets cause tentacles, but these Pokemon also have tentacles: Tentacool family, Octillery, Frillish family, Inkay family, & Nihilego.
  • And I'm sure I'm missing dozens of other Pokemon, some you could probably easily relate to some above even (or certain Body Shapes like Serpentine or With Fins).

Thinking about it, Slam probably should have been the TR instead of Body Slam. The only Pokemon who would even think to use Slam would be ones who would later want to use Body Slam, so makes sense to have that being TR01 so you can just throw it on those Pokemon until they learn Body Slam proper. "Maybe they were but got mixed up due to similar names!" No, in Japanese Slam is still called "Slam" but "Body Slam" is called "Lean On", there's no confusion/mistake.
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
Kinda offtopic but I always thought Lickitung slam you with their tongues. And use Cut with their tongues as well. (I mean, those chubby arms aren't going to do the job)

Edit: had to check in Bulbapedia and YES, they use the tongue for using Slam

:psynervous:
I believe in Stadium at least, Lickitung winds up its tongue before vaulting over with it to use Slam. I think it uses Cut with a tongue swipe too? Can't find any footage but if you want me to record it or something I can LOL, it's a funny mon.
 
:bw/armaldo:
Despite getting Swift Swim, Armaldo doesn't get Rain Dance. Out of all Pokemon to not get it, why a potential Rain abuser..? I'm not sure if it's the only one like this, but it's definitely one of the weirder things I've seen in Pokemon.
There are only two other Pokemon: Anorith (obviously) and Magikarp.

You should never be in a category where it's just you and Magikarp.
 
More of an ability oddity, but something interesting: when you first fight Lysandre at his lab, his Pyroar has Rivalry. When you fight him the two times at Team Flare Secret HQ, his Pyroar suddenly doesn't.
Maybe they indirectly wanted to showcase the Ability Capsule, which was introduced in these games. Though it can also be an oversight.

Another similar oddity are Agatha's Pokémon in FireRed and LeafGreen. When you first encounter her, all her Pokémon are female. On her rematch team, all her Pokémon are male.
 
I just noticed something peculiar about Partner Eevee's special moves. As some of you may know, despite being unavailable and unusable, many of the Let's Go moves have had their properties changed. In particular, all of the Eeveelution moves had their base powers changed, and many had their accuracy changed as well. However, these new powers and accuracies follow a pattern. Here's the values for the one based on the original Eeveelutions:

:vaporeon: Bouncy Bubble: 60 power, 100% accuracy
:jolteon: Buzzy Buzz: 60 power, 100% accuracy
:flareon: Sizzly Slide: 60 power, 100% accuracy

All the same. Interesting. Now let's check out the second batch of Eeveelutions:

:espeon: Glitzy Glow: 80 power, 95% accuracy
:umbreon: Baddy Bad: 80 power, 95% accuracy

Both are 20 points stronger and 5% less accurate than the first batch. What about the third?

:leafeon: Sappy Seed: 100 power, 90% accuracy
:glaceon: Freezy Frost: 100 power, 90% accuracy

Once again, 20 points stronger and 5% less accurate than the previous batch of Eeveelutions. And sure enough, the last "batch" continues the pattern.

:sylveon: Sparkly Swirl: 120 power, 85% accuracy
Can you really call a single move a batch?

I'm not entirely sure why this might be (especially since it was weird to change them in the first place), but my guess is that it was to balance them for when they become available. Let's Go already spaces out the tutors for the moves so that you'll encounter them in roughly the same order as outlined above (Sparkly Swirl gets lumped in with the Sinnoh moves) so it wouldn't surprise me if someone realized "hey, giving out 90 power moves with borked effects probably isn't a great idea to do before the second gym" so they dialed back the power for the early moves, and then progressively made them stronger to make a power curve (and also made them less accurate because I guess that's just what you do with strong moves).
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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I just noticed something peculiar about Partner Eevee's special moves. As some of you may know, despite being unavailable and unusable, many of the Let's Go moves have had their properties changed. In particular, all of the Eeveelution moves had their base powers changed, and many had their accuracy changed as well. However, these new powers and accuracies follow a pattern. Here's the values for the one based on the original Eeveelutions:

:vaporeon: Bouncy Bubble: 60 power, 100% accuracy
:jolteon: Buzzy Buzz: 60 power, 100% accuracy
:flareon: Sizzly Slide: 60 power, 100% accuracy

All the same. Interesting. Now let's check out the second batch of Eeveelutions:

:espeon: Glitzy Glow: 80 power, 95% accuracy
:umbreon: Baddy Bad: 80 power, 95% accuracy

Both are 20 points stronger and 5% less accurate than the first batch. What about the third?

:leafeon: Sappy Seed: 100 power, 90% accuracy
:glaceon: Freezy Frost: 100 power, 90% accuracy

Once again, 20 points stronger and 5% less accurate than the previous batch of Eeveelutions. And sure enough, the last "batch" continues the pattern.

:sylveon: Sparkly Swirl: 120 power, 85% accuracy
Can you really call a single move a batch?

I'm not entirely sure why this might be (especially since it was weird to change them in the first place), but my guess is that it was to balance them for when they become available. Let's Go already spaces out the tutors for the moves so that you'll encounter them in roughly the same order as outlined above (Sparkly Swirl gets lumped in with the Sinnoh moves) so it wouldn't surprise me if someone realized "hey, giving out 90 power moves with borked effects probably isn't a great idea to do before the second gym" so they dialed back the power for the early moves, and then progressively made them stronger to make a power curve (and also made them less accurate because I guess that's just what you do with strong moves).
Is this pattern the same with Pikachu's Let's Go Moves?
 
Is this pattern the same with Pikachu's Let's Go Moves?
No, in Let's Go they're all accurate 90 BP moves
1601338704763.png


It's possible they were thinking to bring them over to gen 8 games in some way, then realized they were far too game breaking and just left the leftover data around.

edit: i need to stop posting at late night and misunderstand the posts. I thought you were asking if they were the same in the game.
Well either ways enjoy the fancy original moves :pikuh:
 
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my theory remains that the G-Max eevee & pikachu you get for the Lets Go saved data were meant to be "the" partner eevee/pikachu & get exclusive (likely tutor still) access to the moves.

So they remixed them because SWSH, as a mainline, is hypotehtically meant to be more balanced but at some point in the process decided against it. Maybe they thought spending resources on what...11 moves after removing the return variants that can only be used by 2 very specific versions of pokemon that also already had G-Max forms wasn't worth it. & maybe theyu would have felt the need to give Meowth some equivalent moves or w/e
 
Is this pattern the same with Pikachu's Let's Go Moves?
Pikachu only has three moves that aren't a Return clone: two are based on Gen 1 events of Pikachus that surf with a surfboard and fly with balloons, while the other isn't based on anything, so there isn't much to form a pattern on. Zippy Zap is the only move to be changed. It lost its guaranteed crit, but its base power was buffed from 50 to 80 (an effective 5 point buff given the lack of autocrit) and it also boosts evasion, which it was apparently supposed to do in Let's Go but didn't due to an error.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Wouldn't be against them bringing over Veevee Volley and Pika Papow. But as for the other tutor moves, they can be left behind. Just give Pikachu access to Surf (which they've done) and Fly (which I don't think they've done yet); if not Fly then I can see Aerial Ace, Acrobatics, or Bounce.

As for Eevee, I always thought (though I'm sure plenty will tell me that it would be a terrible idea) if Eevee could get the moves that its evolutions learn upon evolving via breeding: Water Gun, Thunder Shock, Ember, Confusion, Snarl, Razor Leaf, Icy Wind, & Disarming Voice.
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
:gs/paras: :gs/parasect:
For basically no reason at all, Paras has been able to learn Psybeam via breeding since Gen 2. They can't learn Psychic or anything, just Psybeam, the move designed to be that middle-ground between Confusion and Psychic. I suppose they get Screens, but...eh?

And looking into it deeper, Chinchou and Koffing also have this quality...and maybe a few others, but I'm tired.
 
:gs/paras: :gs/parasect:
For basically no reason at all, Paras has been able to learn Psybeam via breeding since Gen 2. They can't learn Psychic or anything, just Psybeam, the move designed to be that middle-ground between Confusion and Psychic. I suppose they get Screens, but...eh?

And looking into it deeper, Chinchou and Koffing also have this quality...and maybe a few others, but I'm tired.
It could be a reference to the host parasite situation Parasect has? Like maybe its like how the mushroom sends signals / commands to the body, so it's not too out there if it could use those brain waves to attack? Idk biology is my worst subject.
 
:gs/paras: :gs/parasect:
For basically no reason at all, Paras has been able to learn Psybeam via breeding since Gen 2. They can't learn Psychic or anything, just Psybeam, the move designed to be that middle-ground between Confusion and Psychic. I suppose they get Screens, but...eh?

And looking into it deeper, Chinchou and Koffing also have this quality...and maybe a few others, but I'm tired.
Confusion and Psybeam both have this weird quality. Male Nidoran (but not female?), Hoppip, and Tangela have been able to learn Confusion via breeding since Gen 2. Squirtle could also learn Confusion by breeding, but only in GSC.

I can maaaaybe understand Psybeam being categorised as a beam attack that some random Pokémon might be able to learn without being able to learn Psychic, but it’s very hard to explain with Confusion.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
:gs/paras: :gs/parasect:
For basically no reason at all, Paras has been able to learn Psybeam via breeding since Gen 2. They can't learn Psychic or anything, just Psybeam, the move designed to be that middle-ground between Confusion and Psychic. I suppose they get Screens, but...eh?

And looking into it deeper, Chinchou and Koffing also have this quality...and maybe a few others, but I'm tired.
Psybeam's distribution is much more specific than the middle-ground between Confusion and Psychic... or it used to be, anyway. Outside of Psychic-Type Pokémon who do require it in their movesets for gameplay reasons, it's rather exclusively given to Pokémon who may be capable of psyching their opponents out through some type of illusion or deception, but not through actual psychic ability. It's even called "Illusory Beam" in Chinese, and "Psyche-Beam" in Japanese specifically.

Of the Pokémon who learn Psybeam via breeding, they pretty much all employ this technique:
  • Goldeen's "tail fin billows like an elegant ballroom dress" (Red), which " is why it is known as the water dancer" (Gold). This could certainly prove a distraction to opponents, particularly in underwater battles.
  • Ledyba is a tough one, but they "join together and use Reflect to protect their nest" (Ultra Moon) which could certainly psych opponents out from attacking it. After all, they have paltry physical defence and Reflect only halves damage received -- most predators would still easily be able to take on a nest, but simply having the wall of light there as a deterrent suffices since Ledyba somehow aren't extinct (yet).
  • Spinarak is much easier. It uses its huge face on its back to psych opponents out. BTW, if Masquerain got Intimidate, Ariados should've done too, but that's beside the point.
  • Chinchou uses its lights to distract and psych opponents out. It also learns Signal Beam, for instance, which has a similar "chance of confusion" effect, not to mention Confuse Ray itself.
  • Surskit "secretes an oil that enables it to walk on water as if it were skating", which is a pretty intimidating illusion. No other Pokémon can appear to skate on top of the water, so it could certainly confuse an unprepared foe.
  • Finneon is the same as Chinchou -- it uses its lights to confuse and intimidate its foe. Like Chinchou, it also learns both Confuse Ray and Signal Beam, so this is fine.
  • Paras uses a variety of powder and spore moves to inflict opponents (and its bug host) with status. Given its whole design philosophy is about scrambling both its own organism's and its opponent's brains, moves like Psybeam and Confuse Ray (which it admittedly doesn't learn, but should) seem fine here.
Koffing, though, is certainly an odd case. It's worth noting that it also learned Psywave from Gen I -> Gen VII, before having it removed from its learnset in SwSh. The only justification I can think of is that it psychs opponents out via its permanent threat of explosion, but then Voltorb should be able to learn it too.

Actually, a lot more Pokémon should be able to learn this move. It seems like GameFreak gave up on this attack pretty early into the series, as after Gen IV there have only been 2 new non-Psychic-Type Pokémon to learn this move at all -- Vivillon, which fits into the many other butterfly/moth Pokémon who learn it (all of them except Beautifly, Volcarona, and Frosmoth), and Magearna, who learns every move somewhat related to light because... it's reflective?

Regardless, I'd argue that pretty much every Pokémon with Intimidate or Unnerve should get this attack, as well as any with an association with light. But I suppose, considering it's pretty weak, that Game Freak figured it wasn't worth putting any more thought into its distribution than just sticking it as a mid-range attack on Psychic-Type Pokémon at a fairly low level. From Gen V all the way up to SwSh, every new Pokémon who learns Psybeam via level-up does so between levels 15-21 which, besides being strangely consistent, contrasts massively with Pokémon from older generations who usually learn it between the late 20s and 30s.

The exception to this was Girafarig, who learned it at level 41 in Gen II and 43 in Gen III before Gen IV reduced it to level 19, where it's remained since. I think this trajectory is pretty indicative of Psybeam's trajectory within the series as a whole. 65BP was never amazing, but it was serviceable if a Pokémon really wanted to use a particular type to attack with. With power creep, 65BP is simply too weak, and so the weaker moves that don't get revamped simply get forgotten about. Why give a new Pokémon Psybeam, even if it fits thematically, when they can gaslight the audience into thinking it makes sense for that Pokémon to use Psychic? I think that's why the distribution of Psybeam seems odd, because it never got fleshed out enough. Looking in a vacuum I think the move's fine as a neat coverage option for Pokémon who use mind games and psych out opponents, but without enough prowess to learn Psychic itself. But with the justifications that are given for these moves, there are many new Pokémon who should also learn it but just skipped to Psychic instead. Volcarona is a key example, as one of 3 moth/butterfly Pokémon not to learn Psybeam, as it does learn Psychic. Blacephalon (lights), Aurorus (lights), Mimikyu (decoy), Alomomola (lights), Chandelure (lights), and Jellicent (illusion like Goldeen) should certainly all learn Psybeam if they can learn Psychic -- which they all can -- but inexplicably they don't. And Minior's in the same boat but... should it learn either Psychic or Psybeam? That one's lost on me.

On the note of moves being lost to powercreep, though, you know that the most recent Pokémon to learn Sludge, another 65BP move, is Garbodor (the sole Gen V Pokémon to learn it)? Comparatively, there are 19 Pokémon introduced in Gen VI or later who learn Sludge Bomb. Also since Gen V, Sludge and Sludge Bomb have had identical in-game text. Another bomb move -- Mud Bomb -- has been given to Stunfisk, Tympole, and Mudbray since Gen V, and then got cut in SwSh entirely. Mirror Shot suffered a similar fate, being given only to Klefki, Necrozma, and Magearna in Gen VI and VII before being cut in SwSh.

TL;DR We're frankly lucky that Psybeam wasn't cut entirely, too. It's clear that GameFreak don't care about the move any more to give any thought to its distribution, preferring to just use Psychic instead for its new Pokémon, and most of the other moves that were cut fit into the same category. This is primarily why the distribution of Psybeam doesn't make sense looking back -- not because there's no justification at all, but because the justification is handled inconsistently across different generations of Pokémon, undermining its existence in the first place.

#JusticeForPsybeam

Edit: I just remembered the reason why Koffing no longer learns Psywave is because it was cut in SwSh too. So uhhh, #JusticeForPsywave as well, Bronzor sucks in ZU without it.
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor
I’d argue powercreep was never really a factor for most type’s attacks. By generation 1 we already had widely distributed staples like Flamethrower, Psychic, Earthquake, Body Slam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, etc. It’s just that most level up movesets sucked.

The only form of powercreep that occurred was types getting a STAB on par with the other types, such as Poison getting Sludge Bomb or Bug getting Bug Buzz/X-Scissor (took them 4 gens tho...)
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
I’d argue powercreep was never really a factor for most type’s attacks. By generation 1 we already had widely distributed staples like Flamethrower, Psychic, Earthquake, Body Slam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, etc. It’s just that most level up movesets sucked.

The only form of powercreep that occurred was types getting a STAB on par with the other types, such as Poison getting Sludge Bomb or Bug getting Bug Buzz/X-Scissor (took them 4 gens tho...)
To clarify, I don't mean that moves like Psybeam were phased out due to power creep, I mean that it being phased out is power creep itself. Originally it was introduced for two purposes -- to act as an early-mid game STAB for Psychic-Type Pokémon, and to act as a Psychic-Type coverage move for Pokémon who shouldn't actually be able to learn Psychic, but who have enough there thematically that they earned an albeit weaker Psychic-Type option. For the last few generations, though, Game Freak decided that everything should just be able to learn the most powerful move of every type they're allotted, so if a Pokémon is slightly venomous it will learn Sludge Bomb rather than Sludge, and if a Pokémon is slightly psychic then it will learn Psychic instead of Psybeam. And then Game Freak doesn't bother to update the learnsets of older Pokémon, and they're stuck with these subpar options that are now pointless because the new kids on the block have the stronger variants of the moves, outclassing the old guard. This removes Psybeam's latter purpose and relegates it only to the former, soon to be rendered pointless entirely (the weakest special Steel-Type move is Flash Cannon because they got rid of Mirror Shot now. I think most types are headed in that direction).

A.K.A. more Pokémon should also have been given Aurora Beam or Icy Wind instead of Ice Beam, or Spark instead of Wild Charge. It adds challenge when coverage options are only really effective against the things that they cover and you can't just choice lock Pokémon into them because the moves are powerful enough on neutral targets anyway. The nicher movesets of Gens III and IV are a large part of why many players still see those as the crux of the competitive scene, IMO.
 
For the last few generations, though, Game Freak decided that everything should just be able to learn the most powerful move of every type they're allotted
Yep. If you'll play a little game, I'm thinking of a Fighting-type that uses Close Combat and Knock Off on pretty much all of its sets. Can you guess which one it is?
FUCKING ALL OF THEM

the weakest special Steel-Type move is Flash Cannon because they got rid of Mirror Shot now. I think most types are headed in that direction
Let's not forget Signal Beam. While there still exist weaker special Bug moves, special-attacking Bug-types are more common than special-attacking Steel-types, so the power vacuum between Struggle Bug and Bug Buzz is far more problematic. What's more, Signal Beam wasn't just a weaksauce move that nothing used. People like to say "oh, well why not just use Bug Buzz?" but Signal Beam wasn't learned almost exclusively by Bug-types like Bug Buzz is. There are plenty of Electric and Psychic Pokemon who would love to use Signal Beam to hit Grass, Dark, and opposing Psychic Pokemon, especially since Hidden Power Fire and Ice are no longer options, Focus Blast is unreliable, and Focus Blast + Shadow Ball costs a lot of moveslots.
 
Not Terrakion :mehowth:

I've already complained about Close Combat but Knock Off's power buff was one of the worst things to happen to Pokémon IMO
It's funny cause gen 7 sorta neutered Knock Off due to Z crystals and Mega stones not being knockoffable.
However those are gone in gen 8 so Knock Off is as powerful as it can be (moreso with how impactful heavy duty boots are nowadays)
The only ""competition"" on KnockOff in gen 8 is that it sorta competes with Poltergeist, however as far as I know for now the users of Poltergeist that are viable in any given tier are usually 1 or less (maybe for the better considering one of few things keeping certain ghost types in check is the lack of a strong physical stab)
 

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