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How does it benefit liberals and progressives to “defeat” Biden in 2020?
It doesn't benefit liberals at all to defeat him, he reflects their interests. Most liberals are basically cool with the US drone striking thousands of people to death, black people being murdered by cops, the cops being militarized, climate disaster, prison slave labor, border concentration camps, the whole country being based on slavery/genocide from the beginning, hundreds of thousands of homeless people for no reason etc. They generally do not believe that they are that affected by those things and just want the guy in charge to be kind of nice or whatever. They want him to vaguely say that he will do something so they can feel good about being 'right,' and they want nothing beyond that whatsoever. This includes most 'progressives' as well

There are exceptions (liberals who actually want to solve these problems, yet sincerely believe that working with people like biden is the best/only option) but they will continue to dwindle in number as the problems escalate

Also just to clarify it's 'her' rather than 'them,' and also boo is one of the members I have had on ignore for a while so if there's something in there directly addressed to me someone else can handle it if they want lol
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
It doesn't benefit liberals at all to defeat him, he reflects their interests. Most liberals are basically cool with the US drone striking thousands of people to death, black people being murdered by cops, the cops being militarized, climate disaster, prison slave labor, border concentration camps, the whole country being based on slavery/genocide from the beginning, hundreds of thousands of homeless people for no reason etc. They generally do not believe that they are that affected by those things and just want the guy in charge to be kind of nice or whatever. They want him to vaguely say that he will do something so they can feel good about being 'right,' and they want nothing beyond that whatsoever. This includes most 'progressives' as well

There are exceptions (liberals who actually want to solve these problems, yet sincerely believe that working with people like biden is the best/only option) but they will continue to dwindle in number as the problems escalate

Also just to clarify it's 'her' rather than 'them,' and also boo is one of the members I have had on ignore for a while so if there's something in there directly addressed to me someone else can handle it if they want lol
So what does it mean for "the left" to defeat Biden, assuming he takes office (the logical conclusion from your post being vote for who you can defeat)?
 
i fully agree with your sentiment but this part just reads like a copypasta LMAO
Yesterday I was doxxing a member of and Iron March clone. Last month, I was coaching a Portland-area videographer who has been demoralised after being persistently assaulted by irregular forces deputised by the DOJ, and feeding that videographer tips. Last year, my state broadcaster's coverage of the domestic antifascist movement used video of me to succinctly represent ongoing tensions with the fash. Last quarter, I was still recovering from a TBI incurred after I was hospitalised by half a dozen neo-Nazis. Three years ago, I was running an infiltration and operation on a certain organisation that organised UTR in Charlottesville, from across the fucking border in Canada. I've got contacts from Philly to Portland, Drumheller to Chattanooga, Brooklyn to Chinatown. My chatroom with my mates was outsourced by Bellingcat (I didn't really contribute to that though). Some of those mates were central in a certain Netflix doc on the alt-right and antifa. I'm partially responsible for taking down a political campaign and I've broken up a white supremacist organisation single-handedly. I tied Generation Identity to the Christchurch shootings in less than 24 hours, beating Austrian intelligence's public disclosure of that fact by two weeks, all because Brenton Tarrant plagiarised part of his manifesto. something something, gorilla warfare.

The disconnect between legit activists and (American) online armchair revolutionaries fucking astounds me. If I come across as being mean in my responses, it's because I am genuinely disgusted by a great deal of the shit being said here.

boo836 Ungrind the axe already. Making wild insinuations does nothing for you but to derail the conversation. I too am curious exactly what lily means, but it does nothing to say the things you just did about them.

Take a break before your next response.
lol
 
I think it may be clearer if I actually use AOC in place of Biden for this example, because lots of progressives would be really excited to see her become president.

So let's say AOC takes office, and like, we get health care, we get a green new deal, we get some kind of police reforms. Pretty much objectively good things. But also, she says shit about how China needs to be 'contained,' police murdering black people is still a thing, she still drone bombs people but just less than previous presidents, etc.

leftist position in my mind: neither aoc nor any person holding office should know a day of peace. "cool" "progressive" politicians are not my friend and should not be able to eat at restaurants or do shit in public while allowing these enormous problems to persist. People should be in the streets protesting police brutality just as they did under trump and obama. aoc should be assumed to not be on our side in all cases where her actions do not objectively demonstrate otherwise.

'progressive' position will probably be: ok so she's not perfect. But she's trying, she's like the best available option, we need to be nice so we can get through midterms!! The green new deal is good enough for now! Vote!

this is basically what i mean with biden. biden winning will mean that liberals, under the guise of 'negotiating' with him, will really just accept things that they would consider unacceptable if trump were in office. if they were serious about improving things they would be salivating at the opportunity to bully a president who will supposedly be 'easier to influence' into making real change. instead we've got people in this thread literally saying they'd be content if he did nothing. they're outright saying that they're voting for the guy they least plan on influencing!
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
So what does it mean for "the left" to defeat Biden, assuming he takes office (the logical conclusion from your post being vote for who you can defeat)?
it's not incredibly complicated, just difficult, 'defeating' biden just means mobilizing against his worst excesses and his lobbyists excesses by connecting 'focus groups' on various matters (scotus control and constitutional reform, tax justice, correcting the fbi/doj on far right domestic terrorism, climate change, prison/police abolition, immigrant rights, Palestinian rights, income inequality) and electing AOC or 3rd party progressive archetype candidates to be the legislative instrument and representative bloc that presents bills for Biden to sign. You need insiders in the government at all levels and outside agitation to broadcast policy demands for inside bloc to then take up. It's seemingly better if progressive democrats do it to avoid Biden colluding with the republicans like Obama did.

it's amazing how boo can channel all this great activity theyve supposedly done into a case for biden, when every anti-fa group I know (actual portlander here) has zero hopes for biden and knows that the fascists are literally going nowhere just because biden gets elected. in fact, the alienation that neoliberal policy delivers will foment the proliferation of far-right fascist orgs. pulling out the farright weeds is not going to lead the liberals to end their wars, meaningfully address climate change, or deliver a socio-economic policy agenda that breeds a stable society.

somehow raikoulover and boo have this weird idea that defeating biden means defeating him electorally ("in 2020"), which is just pure rhetorical derailment from the substantive matters that defeating Biden's neoliberalism involves. Under Obama, many self-described progressives pinned their hopes on supporting Obama while he implemented wall street's agendas, maintained the bush jr status quo and got cowed by the upsurge in far-right organizing. Liberals fall asleep/fall in love with any charismatic leader that can make a good sound byte and then they wonder how Trump can come along and have an authoritarian apparatus to amplify from day 1. Defeating Biden involves the opposite response, continuing to agitate and mobilize just as hard or harder under Biden as Trump because ultimately the half-baked 'solutions' neoliberal politicians come up with on their own, left to their lobbyists, paves the way for the mainstreaming of authoritarianism. This is not going to be easy at all but thats no excuse not to grapple with the reality of the situation by coping out and being like 'it's all gonna become different by Biden magic, lets just keep winning midterms'.

I'm not interested in twiddling my thumbs and busy work meant to stall societal collapse by buying a few more weeks here, another month there. A domestic terror cell busted here, while 10 more craftier cells pop up there. I actually want humanity to survive the complete degeneration we are currently on a path towards.
 
Yesterday I was doxxing a member of and Iron March clone. Last month, I was coaching a Portland-area videographer who has been demoralised after being persistently assaulted by irregular forces deputised by the DOJ, and feeding that videographer tips. Last year, my state broadcaster's coverage of the domestic antifascist movement used video of me to succinctly represent ongoing tensions with the fash. Last quarter, I was still recovering from a TBI incurred after I was hospitalised by half a dozen neo-Nazis. Three years ago, I was running an infiltration and operation on a certain organisation that organised UTR in Charlottesville, from across the fucking border in Canada. I've got contacts from Philly to Portland, Drumheller to Chattanooga, Brooklyn to Chinatown. My chatroom with my mates was outsourced by Bellingcat (I didn't really contribute to that though). Some of those mates were central in a certain Netflix doc on the alt-right and antifa. I'm partially responsible for taking down a political campaign and I've broken up a white supremacist organisation single-handedly. I tied Generation Identity to the Christchurch shootings in less than 24 hours, beating Austrian intelligence's public disclosure of that fact by two weeks, all because Brenton Tarrant plagiarised part of his manifesto. something something, gorilla warfare.

The disconnect between legit activists and (American) online armchair revolutionaries fucking astounds me. If I come across as being mean in my responses, it's because I am genuinely disgusted by a great deal of the shit being said here.



lol
I believe you bro
 
js, there's a big difference between "defeating" candidates during an election and mounting public pressure on candidates to commit to specific policy. This feels more like heavy backtracking than a clarification lol.

it's not incredibly complicated, just difficult, 'defeating' biden just means mobilizing against his worst excesses and his lobbyists excesses by connecting 'focus groups' on various matters (scotus control and constitutional reform, tax justice, correcting the fbi/doj on far right domestic terrorism, climate change, prison/police abolition, immigrant rights, Palestinian rights, income inequality) and electing AOC or 3rd party progressive archetype candidates to be the legislative instrument and representative bloc that presents bills for Biden to sign. You need insiders in the government at all levels and outside agitation to broadcast policy demands for inside bloc to then take up. It's seemingly better if progressive democrats do it to avoid Biden colluding with the republicans like Obama did.

There is no third party progressive option, anyone with rudimentary knowledge of the electoral landscape knows the Greens are a satellite of the GOP. There's been a recent initiative undertaken by literally every dipshit to blame for sabotaging Sanders' campaign (and subsequently his hopes for a Cabinet position), ie Ryan Knight, Brie Gray, Nina Turner, and Sirota. It's not a great look when the politician whose campaign you worked for calls you irresponsible.

it's amazing how boo can channel all this great activity theyve supposedly done into a case for biden, when every anti-fa group I know (actual portlander here) has zero hopes for biden and knows that the fascists are literally going nowhere just because biden gets elected. in fact, the alienation that neoliberal policy delivers will foment the proliferation of far-right fascist orgs. pulling out the farright weeds is not going to lead the liberals to end their wars, meaningfully address climate change, or deliver a socio-economic policy agenda that breeds a stable society.

Congratulations on living in Portland, I don't know what antifascist structures you know but I know for a fact that legit activists aren't pussyfooting around third-party bullshit. It's also incredibly fucking lazy to attribute growth of the far-right to economic alienation. Literally anyone involved in counterextremism will tell you that most people who get involved in terrorism or extremist movements are upper-middle class. There is no data whatsoever to support this idea of "neoliberal alienation" and yet that hasn't stopped people with no idea what they're talking about from asserting otherwise. Weird thing is that just yesterdays morning I saw a couple researchers taking the piss out of a liberal pundit for implying the same thing over the property of one of the Whitmer plot suspects.

Also yeah, "pulling out the weeds" will significantly reduce incentives for conflict on the global stage. Part of the issue was that Gaddafi and Assad were fucking sponsoring foreign fascists for decades. Both even hired escaped Nazis, like Otto Skorzeny and Alois Brunner.


somehow raikoulover and boo have this weird idea that defeating biden means defeating him electorally ("in 2020"), which is just pure rhetorical derailment from the substantive matters that defeating Biden's neoliberalism involves. Under Obama, many self-described progressives pinned their hopes on supporting Obama while he implemented wall street's agendas, maintained the bush jr status quo and got cowed by the upsurge in far-right organizing. Liberals fall asleep/fall in love with any charismatic leader that can make a good sound byte and then they wonder how Trump can come along and have an authoritarian apparatus to amplify from day 1. Defeating Biden involves the opposite response, continuing to agitate and mobilize just as hard or harder under Biden as Trump because ultimately the half-baked 'solutions' neoliberal politicians come up with on their own, left to their lobbyists, paves the way for the mainstreaming of authoritarianism. This is not going to be easy at all but thats no excuse not to grapple with the reality of the situation by coping out and being like 'it's all gonna become different by Biden magic, lets just keep winning midterms'.

I feel like you don't really understand what neoliberalism is, because you seem to think of it as some immutable characteristic of Biden and not a dated ideology that hasn't been relevant in the past four years. A lot of this paragraph is just ahistorical, you being mad over Obama not being a secret Bolshevik who fulfills whatever arbitrary policy demands you have doesn't change the fact that Obama

I'm not interested in twiddling my thumbs and busy work meant to stall societal collapse by buying a few more weeks here, another month there. A domestic terror cell busted here, while 10 more craftier cells pop up there. I actually want humanity to survive the complete degeneration we are currently on a path towards.

This last statement alone almost makes me inclined to not take your entire post seriously. Denigrating antifascism as an irrelevant game of whack-a-mole with no presentation of an alternative is little more than obnoxious grandstanding, and betrays your inability to grasp the gravity of the current situation. In the last days of the Weimar Republic, you would have been inactive but criticising antifascists for not upholding random policy positions as the SA began holding members of the Reichstag hostage. Your single-sentence critique is even more absurd to someone aware of how the transnational far-right is completely dependent on oil money, pretty much regardless of location. The Russian Federation today is the principal sponsor of neo-Nazi and neofascist entities around the world. It's basically a gas station with nukes, run by a guy whose chief ideologist thinks Adolf Hitler was a "force for civilisation"


I believe you bro
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll ha
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
1. hello is trump a fascist that controls the doj or not, you can't seriously claim fascists care about being outted and propose that theres a fascist sitting as president. like honestly i dont even know what can be made of this line of thinking.

2. if fascists come from the ranks of rich ppl, why are working class rural americans voting for trump the fascist? why are rich ppl paying god only knows how much money to have dinner with biden if they're fascists? or maybe, as ive said, theres a lot of poor people for the rich ppl who do want to sponsor domestic terrorism to indoctrinate up in the absence of any coherent government policy to alleviate these ppl's condition. and there will be more if neoliberal policies continue. while it can be asserted, in some deeply, deeply Zero Dark Thirty line of thinking, that todays fascists are not motivated by money, economic and social instability has always been the recruiting condition for fascism within democratic states.

3. anti fascism is not wack-a-mole, doxxing fascists and telling yourself you're solving the world's problems is however.

4. if i thought neoliberalism was an immutable characteristic of biden, would i have spelled out a strategy/tactic for getting him to capitulate on a variety of issues? much paranoia in this line of thinking imo, or maybe can't stand to concede a point when your reasoning is entirely 'defeated' so you've seized on a contrived semantic line of argumentation, much like just bringing up some green party strawman when I never mentioned them at all lol and actually I said it would be better to turn to any truly involved progressive democratic candidates that can be found to potentially avoid having moderates collude with republicans.

we all know the russian federation is for now the major fascist world power this is not news, although it is the most sensical part of your post. Given that, it astounds me that you can think that electing politicians who have no plan for climate change is gonna save you from petrol fascists in the face of increasing sociopolitical collapse brought on by climate change and that you'd put all this effort into asserting I have given no alternatives to neoliberalism other than 'bolshevism'. Anyway, I guess I'm glad to hear that we can trust the CIA to get to the bottom of these things lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot#Biographical_sketches_and_motives

"
  • Joseph Morrison is considered the leader of the Wolverine Watchmen.[32] His home in Munith, which he shared with Musico, was used as a training site, according to Michigan Assistant Attorney General Gregory Townsend. Photographs of the home show a Confederate battle flag and a variation of the U.S. flag with alternating, vertical red and white stripes and a circle of stars surrounding the words "Liberty or Death".[21][33] Morrison's neighbors told The Daily Beast that the home's residents were "disrespectful" and said large groups regularly gathered there on weekends, whereupon gunfire would be heard.[21] His online alias was "Boogaloo Bunyan".[33] Morrison had served in the U.S. Marine Corps since 2015, most recently with the 4th Marine Logistics Group in Battle Creek, Michigan.[34]
  • Adam Fox had been living in the basement of his former employer, a vacuum repair shop in Grand Rapids. He received permission for that living arrangement from the shop's owner who felt empathy towards Fox, as Fox was homeless and had dogs. The basement was used to hold one of the group's meetings.[35][36] Fox posted a YouTube video in June, mentioning Whitmer's handling of the pandemic as one of his motives for the plot.[2] According to his employer, Fox espoused anti-police and anti-government views, along with support for the boogaloo movement, and had recently become worried about the U.S. becoming a communist country and Democratic politicians taking away his guns.[35] Fox had previously been a member of another militia group called the Michigan Home Guard, but he was kicked out due to "rage issues" and threatening other members on social media.[37]
  • Barry Croft's social media accounts depicted him wearing a tricorne and a sweatshirt with an insignia associated with the Three Percenters militia group. He expressed support for the Russia investigation origins counter-narrative and opposition to the country's current immigration policy, and he believed the investigations into President Trump constituted an "uprising".[24][38] Croft was arrested multiple times from 1994 to 1996 for assault and burglary. He was convicted in 1997 for possessing a gun in the commission of a felony and spent three years in prison. In April 2019, Croft was pardoned for the conviction, as well as the prior assault and burglary charges, by Delaware Governor John Carney.[27][38]
  • Daniel Harris served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 2014 to June 2019, most recently at Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina.[34][39] The group met at his home in Lake Orion on August 23 to discuss the plot.[40]
  • Brandon Caserta was depicted wearing a Hawaiian-style shirt associated with the boogaloo movement in a TikTok video; and on Facebook, he praised Kyle Rittenhouse, a civilian who shot and killed two protesters during unrest in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Caserta was also a COVID-19 denier and supported the QAnon conspiracy theory;[41] however, in one video, he criticized President Trump and called him a tyrant.[42] His belief system apparently became more extreme following Whitmer's implementation of the statewide lockdown. His social media activity originally consisted of posts about comedy shows and podcasts, motivational quotes, and selfies; but following the lockdown, he began "liking" posts about conspiracy theories regarding Bill Gates, as well as memes about hogtying police officers.[24]
  • Pete Musico was active on YouTube, where he posted video blogs against taxes, gun control, and the so-called deep state. A video posted in 2019, entitled "Gretchen Whitmer Interview", depicted him railing against her policies around automobile ownership. Musico was also active on Gab, where he promoted the unfounded claim that there is an ongoing campaign to kill white people in South Africa. He also followed the accounts of Proud Boys organizer Joe Biggs and InfoWars personality Owen Shroyer. On Twitter, he expressed support for Trump and conspiracy theories regarding Bill and Hillary Clinton, and the high presence of mercury in vaccines.[21]
  • Michael and William Null, twin brothers, were also former members of another militia group called Michigan Liberty Militia.[37] They were photographed at a protest held by Michigan United for Liberty, a right-wing group protesting against Whitmer's COVID-19 lockdown orders, at the Michigan State Capitol on April 30.[43] William also attended another anti-lockdown rally in May, as well as Black Lives Matter rallies in Grand Rapids and Flint, according to Barry County Sheriff Dar Leaf. The Null brothers later helped conduct surveillance on Whitmer's vacation home.[44] William was also photographed at a February 2017 protest against President Trump's Executive Order 13769, held by the Equality Caucus of Genesee County in Flint. He and members of the Michigan Liberty Militia were counter-protesting while wearing military fatigues, carrying firearms, and waving a Gadsden flag. William also allegedly made threats against the protesters on Facebook.[45]
  • Paul Bellar, who was arrested in Columbia, South Carolina, where he had moved from Milford over the summer after an eviction, was allegedly responsible for designing the tactical training exercises used by the Wolverine Watchmen.[33] Bellar's former neighbor in Milford said the pandemic caused him to lose his job and called him a "very angry person" and said he threatened her with a gun after a run-in with him.[46] According to Bellar's father, he trained for the U.S. Army at Fort Jackson for a year before being discharged in 2019 with a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.[47]
"

finally do these sound like upper middle class ppl to you or were they economically marginal ppl indoctrinated through classic lines of disinformation easily purchasable by interested rich ppl with means
 
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1. hello is trump a fascist that controls the doj or not, you can't seriously claim fascists care about being outted and propose that theres a fascist sitting as president. like honestly i dont even know what can be made of this line of thinking.

If they didn't care about being outed, they wouldn't be fucking imploding over it. I'm half convinced that you're one of those sorts that thinks listening to comedy podcasts makes them a revolutionary. The Westworld avatar definitely doesn't fucking help lol

2. if fascists come from the ranks of rich ppl, why are working class rural americans voting for trump the fascist? why are rich ppl paying god only knows how much money to have dinner with biden if they're fascists? or maybe, as ive said, theres a lot of poor people for the rich ppl who do want to sponsor domestic terrorism to indoctrinate up in the absence of any coherent government policy to alleviate these ppl's condition. and there will be more if neoliberal policies continue. while it can be asserted, in some deeply, deeply Zero Dark Thirty line of thinking, that todays fascists are not motivated by money, economic and social instability has always been the recruiting condition for fascism within democratic states.

Here's something that might blow your mind: poor people aren't a partisan voting demographic in America. This idea of Trump's base being the "white working class" (which is a very small portion of America's population, owing to a broad racial wealth gap) and not overwhelmingly the white upper-middle class is so out of touch with any polling, which shows this "white working class" constitutes just less than a third of his support.

3. anti fascism is not wack-a-mole, doxxing fascists and telling yourself you're solving the world's problems is however.

Antifascism is doxxing fascists. Circlejerking online about how "radical" you are to justify your inaction isn't antifascism. If you don't have tangible results attached to your work, then only one of us is actually pretending to.

4. if i thought neoliberalism was an immutable characteristic of biden, would i have spelled out a strategy/tactic for getting him to capitulate on a variety of issues? much paranoia in this line of thinking imo, or maybe can't stand to concede a point when your reasoning is entirely 'defeated' so you've seized on a contrived semantic line of argumentation, much like just bringing up some green party strawman when I never mentioned them at all lol and actually I said it would be better to turn to any truly involved progressive democratic candidates that can be found to potentially avoid having moderates collude with republicans.

claiming I'm being contrived over semantics while you're clearly departing from any reasonable interpretation is laughable. You're the one who brought up electing "3rd party progressives" as a means of "defeating" Biden, so claiming I'm constructing a "strawman" is some of the stupidest gaslighting I've ever fucking read.

we all know the russian federation is for now the major fascist world power this is not news, although it is the most sensical part of your post. Given that, it astounds me that you can think that electing politicians who have no plan for climate change is gonna save you from petrol fascists in the face of increasing sociopolitical collapse brought on by climate change and that you'd put all this effort into asserting I have given no alternatives to neoliberalism other than 'bolshevism'. Anyway, I guess I'm glad to hear that we can trust the CIA to get to the bottom of these things lol.

What in the goddamned fuck does the CIA have to do with anything I've said? This sort of performative posturing is precisely why people don't take American "leftists" seriously. If you aren't going to engage the ongoing political crisis, then you definitely aren't going to fucking solve the climate crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot#Biographical_sketches_and_motives

"
  • Joseph Morrison is considered the leader of the Wolverine Watchmen.[32] His home in Munith, which he shared with Musico, was used as a training site, according to Michigan Assistant Attorney General Gregory Townsend. Photographs of the home show a Confederate battle flag and a variation of the U.S. flag with alternating, vertical red and white stripes and a circle of stars surrounding the words "Liberty or Death".[21][33] Morrison's neighbors told The Daily Beast that the home's residents were "disrespectful" and said large groups regularly gathered there on weekends, whereupon gunfire would be heard.[21] His online alias was "Boogaloo Bunyan".[33] Morrison had served in the U.S. Marine Corps since 2015, most recently with the 4th Marine Logistics Group in Battle Creek, Michigan.[34]
  • Adam Fox had been living in the basement of his former employer, a vacuum repair shop in Grand Rapids. He received permission for that living arrangement from the shop's owner who felt empathy towards Fox, as Fox was homeless and had dogs. The basement was used to hold one of the group's meetings.[35][36] Fox posted a YouTube video in June, mentioning Whitmer's handling of the pandemic as one of his motives for the plot.[2] According to his employer, Fox espoused anti-police and anti-government views, along with support for the boogaloo movement, and had recently become worried about the U.S. becoming a communist country and Democratic politicians taking away his guns.[35] Fox had previously been a member of another militia group called the Michigan Home Guard, but he was kicked out due to "rage issues" and threatening other members on social media.[37]
  • Barry Croft's social media accounts depicted him wearing a tricorne and a sweatshirt with an insignia associated with the Three Percenters militia group. He expressed support for the Russia investigation origins counter-narrative and opposition to the country's current immigration policy, and he believed the investigations into President Trump constituted an "uprising".[24][38] Croft was arrested multiple times from 1994 to 1996 for assault and burglary. He was convicted in 1997 for possessing a gun in the commission of a felony and spent three years in prison. In April 2019, Croft was pardoned for the conviction, as well as the prior assault and burglary charges, by Delaware Governor John Carney.[27][38]
  • Daniel Harris served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 2014 to June 2019, most recently at Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina.[34][39] The group met at his home in Lake Orion on August 23 to discuss the plot.[40]
  • Brandon Caserta was depicted wearing a Hawaiian-style shirt associated with the boogaloo movement in a TikTok video; and on Facebook, he praised Kyle Rittenhouse, a civilian who shot and killed two protesters during unrest in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Caserta was also a COVID-19 denier and supported the QAnon conspiracy theory;[41] however, in one video, he criticized President Trump and called him a tyrant.[42] His belief system apparently became more extreme following Whitmer's implementation of the statewide lockdown. His social media activity originally consisted of posts about comedy shows and podcasts, motivational quotes, and selfies; but following the lockdown, he began "liking" posts about conspiracy theories regarding Bill Gates, as well as memes about hogtying police officers.[24]
  • Pete Musico was active on YouTube, where he posted video blogs against taxes, gun control, and the so-called deep state. A video posted in 2019, entitled "Gretchen Whitmer Interview", depicted him railing against her policies around automobile ownership. Musico was also active on Gab, where he promoted the unfounded claim that there is an ongoing campaign to kill white people in South Africa. He also followed the accounts of Proud Boys organizer Joe Biggs and InfoWars personality Owen Shroyer. On Twitter, he expressed support for Trump and conspiracy theories regarding Bill and Hillary Clinton, and the high presence of mercury in vaccines.[21]
  • Michael and William Null, twin brothers, were also former members of another militia group called Michigan Liberty Militia.[37] They were photographed at a protest held by Michigan United for Liberty, a right-wing group protesting against Whitmer's COVID-19 lockdown orders, at the Michigan State Capitol on April 30.[43] William also attended another anti-lockdown rally in May, as well as Black Lives Matter rallies in Grand Rapids and Flint, according to Barry County Sheriff Dar Leaf. The Null brothers later helped conduct surveillance on Whitmer's vacation home.[44] William was also photographed at a February 2017 protest against President Trump's Executive Order 13769, held by the Equality Caucus of Genesee County in Flint. He and members of the Michigan Liberty Militia were counter-protesting while wearing military fatigues, carrying firearms, and waving a Gadsden flag. William also allegedly made threats against the protesters on Facebook.[45]
  • Paul Bellar, who was arrested in Columbia, South Carolina, where he had moved from Milford over the summer after an eviction, was allegedly responsible for designing the tactical training exercises used by the Wolverine Watchmen.[33] Bellar's former neighbor in Milford said the pandemic caused him to lose his job and called him a "very angry person" and said he threatened her with a gun after a run-in with him.[46] According to Bellar's father, he trained for the U.S. Army at Fort Jackson for a year before being discharged in 2019 with a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.[47]
"

finally do these sound like upper middle class ppl to you or were they economically marginal ppl indoctrinated through classic lines of disinformation easily purchasable by interested rich ppl with means

yeah, the guy living in a vacuum shop sounds like an outlier between the trust-fund kids, former soldiers and violent criminals that principally make up terrorist movements. The quality of life for American soldiers is pretty damn good, even if entry-level pay is under 25k/year. Militias in the United States are also principally upper-middle class gun nuts capable of buying thousands of dollars of kit and munitions, not some neet living in a tent in his high school mentor's basement.
so do you actually do anything in Portland or are you one of those people who pretends simply disapproving of the police, taking on "revolutionary" aesthetics online and "good vibes" are meaningful
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
so do you actually do anything in Portland or are you one of those people who pretends simply disapproving of the police, taking on "revolutionary" aesthetics online and "good vibes" are meaningful
last i checked you were the one: memeing itt, qualifying yourself, making weak attempts to ad hominem me when your arguments imploded due to actual facts about domestic terrorists' cases, that you even brought up first, being introduced, and repeating the CIA Alfreda Bikowsky understanding of terrorism, which actually makes sense if you're hunting for the best person to doxx, but makes no sense at all if you actually want to understand basic political dynamics, such as gee idk the conditions in which oligarchs are able to strive for political power in opposition to states' power
 
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It doesn't benefit liberals at all to defeat him, he reflects their interests. Most liberals are basically cool with the US drone striking thousands of people to death, black people being murdered by cops, the cops being militarized, climate disaster, prison slave labor, border concentration camps, the whole country being based on slavery/genocide from the beginning, hundreds of thousands of homeless people for no reason etc. They generally do not believe that they are that affected by those things and just want the guy in charge to be kind of nice or whatever. They want him to vaguely say that he will do something so they can feel good about being 'right,' and they want nothing beyond that whatsoever. This includes most 'progressives' as well.
This is simply not true. It is one giant strawman. Where did you come with this?
 

vonFiedler

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This is simply not true. It is one giant strawman. Where did you come with this?
She probably means that you are being complacent in these things. For instance, neither you or boo have addressed any of this at all:

Cool. Here, I'm gonna list some things a president has done, and I'll let you determine whether it was Obama or Trump.

Drone strikes, including those that killed American citizens
Having Citibank, a corporation, privately vet his cabinet
Bailed out Wall Street and actively protected them while his party controlled both the House and Senate, and left everyone whose homes got foreclosed with nothing
Expanded and made permanent Bush era policies and tax cuts, despite vowing to end many of them. Pardoned people who performed torture.
Cracked down on whistleblowers and expanded NSA spying
Approved and signed a law that allows the government to remove someone's right of Habeas Corpus if the government determined they're "belligerent"
Deporting Honduran children to send a message to their parents (this was explicitly the reason)
Created internment camps at the country's southern border
Reinstated the use of military equipment by the police in order to suppress BLM protests, including grenade launchers and armored vehicles
Enacted a healthcare plan created by a Republican think tank
Banned immigrants from Muslim countries like Syria and Iran via executive order
These are Obama era policies.
 
I haven't addressed them because a number of them are clear exaggerations and meant to equivocate a fascist regime with its opposition.

last i checked you were the one: memeing itt, qualifying yourself, making weak attempts to ad hominem me when your arguments imploded due to actual facts about domestic terrorists' cases, that you even brought up first, being introduced, and repeating the CIA Alfreda Bikowsky understanding of terrorism, which actually makes sense if you're hunting for the best person to doxx, but makes no sense at all if you actually want to understand basic political dynamics, such as gee idk the conditions in which oligarchs are able to strive for political power in opposition to states' power
The examples used don't validate your argument lmao, you're saying the one dude living in a vacuum shop is representative of an entire terrorist movement when by all accounts he's an outlier.
 
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Myzozoa

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I haven't addressed them because a number of them are clear exaggerations and meant to equivocate a fascist regime with its opposition.



The examples used don't validate your argument lmao, you're saying the one dude living in a vacuum shop is representative of an entire terrorist movement when by all accounts he's an outlier.
bro if youre so good at doxxing, go google these ppl's names and tell me which one of them is upper middle class. remember this is a case that you yourself brought up supposedly to invalidate my argument. this is pathetic rhetoric being spouted one who truly cannot summon a valid argument nor even engage with one when presented to them.


https://conandaily.com/2020/10/10/d...whitmer-kidnapping-conspirator-from-michigan/
https://conandaily.com/2020/10/10/b...whitmer-kidnapping-conspirator-from-michigan/
https://conandaily.com/2020/10/11/j...3-things-about-wolverine-watchmen-co-founder/

do i really need to go on?
 

Myzozoa

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is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
itt: the working class are now US Marines and anti-taxation libertarian activists.
itt the upper middle class are now living on 50gs a year which is how much a corporal makes in the army/marines bud
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
it is related: people turn to extremist groups because they are deprived of social status due to socioeconomic marginalization, this goes for gangs, domestic terrorists and cults and the proliferation of these phenomena is what we have to look forward to as neoliberal economics combines with climate change to cause accelerating degeneration of political stability. this is very conclusive, I invite you to read any research such as this one:

"Identity: One’s psychological identity is a developed, stable sense of self and resolved security in one’s basic values, attitudes, and beliefs. Developmentally, its formation typically occurs in a crisis of adolescence or young adulthood, and is tumultuous and emotionally challenging. However, “the successful development of personal identity is essential to the integrity and continuity of the personality” (Crenshaw, 198648, p. 391). An individual’s search for identity may draw him or her to extremist or terrorist organizations in a variety of ways. One may fall into what psychologist Jim Marcia calls “identity foreclosure” where a role and set of ideas and values (an identity) are adopted without personal, critical examination. The absolutist, “black and white” nature of most extremist ideologies is often attractive to those who feel overwhelmed by the complexity and stress of navigating a complicated world. A variant on this process is one in which an individual defines his or her identity simply through group membership. Essentially, one’s personal identity is merged with a group identity, with no sense of (or need for) individuality or uniqueness. As Johnson and Feldman (199249) suggest, "membership in a terrorist group provides a sense of identity or belonging for those personalities whose underlying sense of identity is flawed.” For these individuals, “belonging to the terrorist group becomes … the most important component of their psychosocial identity” Post (198750). A similar mechanism is one in which a desperate quest for personal meaning pushes an individual to adopt a role to advance a cause, with little or no thoughtful analysis or consideration of its merit. In essence, the individual resolves the difficult question “Who am I?” by simply defining him or herself as a “terrorist,” a “freedom fighter,” ”shahid” or similar role (Della Porta, 199251; Knutson, 198152). Taylor and Louis (200453) describe a classic set of circumstances for recruitment into a terrorist organization: “These young people find themselves at a time in their life when they are looking to the future with the hope of engaging in meaningful behavior that will be satisfying and get them ahead. Their objective circumstances including opportunities for advancement are virtually nonexistent; they find some direction for their religious collective identity but the desperately disadvantaged state of their community leaves them feeling marginalized and lost without a clearly defined collective identity”"
 
Alright, the question of whether terrorists are rich or poor turns out to be inconclusive and doesn't seem to be related to anything at all? Let's change topics.
It's not inconclusive, it's been well established with extremist organisations and American militias in particular. Former soldiers, violent criminals, and the upper middle class are the sorts of people able to afford guns and kit. It's a series of bad arguments making assumptions over the lives of these people with absolutely no consideration for the material realities of operating within a militia, ones that they don't only refuse to prove, but instead place onus on me to disprove.

It's definitely going nowhere though, Myzozoa's not even bothering to cite research that validates their argument, just c/ping blocks of random text that has little relevance to the conversation.
 
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