Wait, I do have one thought on Moth. Considering the lessened Quark Boost and the loss of Quiver Dance, any potential for an Agility + Fiery Dance set?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Frankly this is an incredibly impactful change, and I think it really should refocus the discussion around Booster Energy.
With it now functionally being a life orb without recoil on one single switchin if one chooses the boost an offensive stat, I feel like the discussion around it isn't as warranted as it once was. While yes, boosting speed by 1 is still quite strong, this is only the case for one time in the match, I think if a pokemon proves to be problematic with that boost, it would probably be better to look at the pokemon itself.
With the power drop, I think pokemon like Great Tusk, Iron Hands and Iron Valient become a lot less problematic and become more valuable additions to the metagame. Overall I think this new development warants a cooldown on the Booster Energy ban discussion.
And unfortunately unless Iron Bundle gets quickbanned I do not think pult will get as much usage. Now that we know that quark drive gives a larger boost to speed making running specs almost free, allowing it to beat dragapult and other scarfers that threaten it as long as terrain is up. (If not for hazards existing, but we have corviknight so that isn't as much of an issue.)
This is why I said the Quark Drive mechanical changes that we found out about make Iron Bundle more broken, not less broken since it makes running specs much easier and almost free apart from needing hazard removal support from teammates. (At least we have the donphan paradoxes and Corviknight for that, even if removal is harder this gen...)
dragapult certainly is ultra underrated right now. still think its oe of the clearly best offensive tera abusers
agreed
id actaully add in roaring moon in the list of the last paragraph
1.5 to 1.3 is huge and in a meta where switching if often imminent, it's a big nerf in regards to the effectiveness of booster energy
I think Focus Sash lead Glaceon could be one if the trickiest leads to check because you can't OHKO it nor safely switch into it unless you're something like Blissey or Clodsire (the latter not really wanting to switch into a STAB Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry). Also could be the only time Glaceon is considered as hard to check ever with this variant
Flutter will remain banned regardless of this news on the basis of it being absolutely ridiculous beyond belief.
I thought about it and posted- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...see-post-813-mech-update.3710915/post-9406198. But a possible change is changing the tera type to grass instead of ice for more tanking IMO.
we've always known it was 1.5 to speed boost
Only question is what's it gonna set up against? Could be good with Screens or Shed Tail support (particularly from Orthworm), but there are more
I understand why people want to ban Terastallizing, but we should attempt to find a compromise first before outright banning a huge mechanic like this. Like Dynamax, Terastallizing heavily favors offensive Pokémon. The main arguments in favor of banning Terastallizing (by order) are these:
If Terastallizing continues to be a problem even with the clause, then a suspect can be made after. Nerfing the mechanic doesn't mean that a ban is off the table. This post is not against a Terastallize ban. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's still banworthy, but I want to see actual proof of it first.
And there have been compromises and attempts to compromise with past mechanics. Dynamax is a stupid mechanic that should have been quickbanned for reasons such as granting three powerful moves that never misses, doubling HP, useful secondary effects, randomness of which Pokémon and turn Dynamax would happen, breaking out of locked moves, avoiding cheesy and stalling tactics like Destiny Bond and phazing, Ditto, and more. However, since Dynamax was a major mechanic, it was given more leeway with players trying to find a compromise and was thoroughly discussed in the suspect thread to make sure all options were addressed. One suggestion was to minimize Dynamax level, another is to only allow Gigantamaxing to reduce the randomness factor. But with how many problems Dynamax has, a compromise is impossible to make without overcomplicating the issue.
Held items is a major mechanic, and certain items were deemed to be too strong or uncompetitive in past generations, especially in the lower tiers. Rather than banning the item mechanic as a whole, a simple solution of banning only the problematic items is done. And if held items suddenly become a problem, there are still other clauses like no duplicates or revealing held items that could be tested first before banning the item mechanic as a whole. Terastallizing is a more compex issue, but if we can find a simple and consistent solution to balance the mechanic, then we should implement those first.
Lastly, I have a question for the tiering council. If every generation introduces new mechanics, for those that aren't as busted as Dynamax, are you willing to experiment with other tiering options (assuming it's simple and follows game mechanics) rather than the same binary banning or unbanning of the mechanic in its entirety? What compromise (clauses, complexities of policies, etc.) are you willing to consider? Would you consider a different policy of "quicknerfing/clausing" (basically quickbans but for clauses), and have a suspect/quickban after attempts to nerf the mechanic have shown to not be enough? I'm willing to give a pass to Dyanamax being outright banned without trying a compromise because that mechanic was so obviously busted, but I think now is a good time to try something different so that next generation's tiering would go by more smoothly if a more borderline mechanic gets introduced.
Other thoughts:
- Power creep is so much higher now with all these new high BST Paradox forms. UU cannot come sooner.
- Supporting hyper offense is so much easier with so many new hazard setters, Shed Tail, and Gholdengo brainlessly switching into most passive hazard clearers. At least it isn't as much of a switchfest as the previous generation and that there are actual attacking moves being used.
- Last time I checked this thread, it only had like 10 pages. I wish more moderation was done for Houndstone vs. Last Respects posts. People who missed the past few days of this thread would now have to read through 20 pages where a good chuck of the post disagrees with the Houndstone ban after it's been explained that the ban is most likely going to be undone when Basculegion comes back. I don't mind seeing disagreements, but some posts didn't even seem like they read through Finchgator's posts properly and understand Smogon's tiering policy.
- It gives the user either an extra STAB or a super STAB.
- It makes revenge killing very random by changing the user's resistances and immunities mid-battle.
- There are six Pokémon with 18 different types to choose from, for a total of 108 possible outcomes. Although realistically it's way less since each Pokémon only has like a maximum of 5 types to change into, and defense and supportive Pokémon don't really Terastallize, but that's still way more than enough to a pain to deal with.
- As with Dynamax, there is also the issue of not knowing which turn they would Terastallize.
- It fixes coverage issues.
- It has no opportunity cost like wasting an item slot.
If Terastallizing continues to be a problem even with the clause, then a suspect can be made after. Nerfing the mechanic doesn't mean that a ban is off the table. This post is not against a Terastallize ban. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's still banworthy, but I want to see actual proof of it first.
And there have been compromises and attempts to compromise with past mechanics. Dynamax is a stupid mechanic that should have been quickbanned for reasons such as granting three powerful moves that never misses, doubling HP, useful secondary effects, randomness of which Pokémon and turn Dynamax would happen, breaking out of locked moves, avoiding cheesy and stalling tactics like Destiny Bond and phazing, Ditto, and more. However, since Dynamax was a major mechanic, it was given more leeway with players trying to find a compromise and was thoroughly discussed in the suspect thread to make sure all options were addressed. One suggestion was to minimize Dynamax level, another is to only allow Gigantamaxing to reduce the randomness factor. But with how many problems Dynamax has, a compromise is impossible to make without overcomplicating the issue.
Held items is a major mechanic, and certain items were deemed to be too strong or uncompetitive in past generations, especially in the lower tiers. Rather than banning the item mechanic as a whole, a simple solution of banning only the problematic items is done. And if held items suddenly become a problem, there are still other clauses like no duplicates or revealing held items that could be tested first before banning the item mechanic as a whole. Terastallizing is a more compex issue, but if we can find a simple and consistent solution to balance the mechanic, then we should implement those first.
Lastly, I have a question for the tiering council. If every generation introduces new mechanics, for those that aren't as busted as Dynamax, are you willing to experiment with other tiering options (assuming it's simple and follows game mechanics) rather than the same binary banning or unbanning of the mechanic in its entirety? What compromise (clauses, complexities of policies, etc.) are you willing to consider? Would you consider a different policy of "quicknerfing/clausing" (basically quickbans but for clauses), and have a suspect/quickban after attempts to nerf the mechanic have shown to not be enough? I'm willing to give a pass to Dyanamax being outright banned without trying a compromise because that mechanic was so obviously busted, but I think now is a good time to try something different so that next generation's tiering would go by more smoothly if a more borderline mechanic gets introduced.
Other thoughts:
- Power creep is so much higher now with all these new high BST Paradox forms. UU cannot come sooner.
- Supporting hyper offense is so much easier with so many new hazard setters, Shed Tail, and Gholdengo brainlessly switching into most passive hazard clearers. At least it isn't as much of a switchfest as the previous generation and that there are actual attacking moves being used.
- Last time I checked this thread, it only had like 10 pages. I wish more moderation was done for Houndstone vs. Last Respects posts. People who missed the past few days of this thread would now have to read through 20 pages where a good chuck of the post disagrees with the Houndstone ban after it's been explained that the ban is most likely going to be undone when Basculegion comes back. I don't mind seeing disagreements, but some posts didn't even seem like they read through Finchgator's posts properly and understand Smogon's tiering policy.
IMO, Frosmoth is way better due to having two stabs
Yeah a lot of pokemon like roaring moon and iron valiant seem more managable and healthy now knowing fully how protosynthesis and quark drive work mechanically as far as the speed boost goes.
So it seems that Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle are the only broken Paradoxes now that we know fully how the sun/terrain boost works for protosynthesis/quark drive/booster energy effect.
The only paradoxes this mechanical change makes more OP is Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle. Iron Bundle especially since we now know that specs sets are even harder to deal with, considering that it allows Iron Bundle to speed creep the entire OU metagame WITH SPECS under terrain and smash through the entirety of OU that isn't blissey or a niche assault vest mon.
For those of you who think iron bundle is worse now that we know how the mechanic works, its not. If anything it is even more op than it was before.
So it seems that Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle are the only broken Paradoxes now that we know fully how the sun/terrain boost works for protosynthesis/quark drive/booster energy effect.
The only paradoxes this mechanical change makes more OP is Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle. Iron Bundle especially since we now know that specs sets are even harder to deal with, considering that it allows Iron Bundle to speed creep the entire OU metagame WITH SPECS under terrain and smash through the entirety of OU that isn't blissey or a niche assault vest mon.
For those of you who think iron bundle is worse now that we know how the mechanic works, its not. If anything it is even more op than it was before.
Anyways this set for Glaceon was about the only set I was able to make work
Glaceon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Calm Mind
-Freeze-Dry
-Shadow Ball
-Tera Blast
Definitively takes opponents by surprise because no one expects Glaceon of all things in a OU battle at all
Glaceon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Calm Mind
-Freeze-Dry
-Shadow Ball
-Tera Blast
Definitively takes opponents by surprise because no one expects Glaceon of all things in a OU battle at all
Alllllready breaking my vow, but even as Bundle's biggest hater, is Specs really that viable? Pincurchin still sucks.
Yeah if you can keep hazards off it blows through anything that isn't a niche assault vest set or blissey.
And yes pincurchin sucks, but I would say getting terrain up for bundle is more than worth it considering how broken bundle is... Which goes to show how meta-warping bundle has already become... Part of me will be sad to see it go if it gets quickbanned since its really fun to use, but honesly I would be glad to see it go.
IMO I don't think Iron Bundle is as big as an issue as other people are saying, but maybe I don't have enough experience with using it as opposed to playing a couple of games against it? To me, it seems relatively easy to handle if you can either sack something and bring in Pult, or use Tera on something to live a previously SE move and kill, or hit it with some bullshit priority or whatever.
everyone seems to be talking about flutter mane and roaring moon and all these busted pokemon so i have elected to talk about some less used but still amazing pokemon.
Slither Wing @ Assault Vest/Heavy Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression/Leech Life
- Close Combat
- U-turn/Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz/Earthquake/Will-o-Wisp
This is the best bug type hands down. Great typing, bulk, good priority and coverage, excellent power. It can threaten out or force a tera on many metagame staples like roaring moon, chi-yu, chien-pao, and more as well as being a versatile terastilizer itself, destroying would be checks like corv and clodsire with tera fire flare blitz and tera ground quake respectively. U-turn is great because this forces so much out with first impression. if only it got roost...
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Yache Berry
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Flying/Fire/Water/Ground/Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed/Aqua Jet
- Outrage/Dragon Claw/Tera Blast
- Tera Blast/Fire Punch/Earthquake/Waterfall
in my humble opinion dragonite is still the best setup sweeper. he doesnt have the raw power that roaring moon, iron valiant and Chien-Pao boast, but what he does have is versatility and multiscale. The options i have listed above don't even scratch the surface of dnite's potential. His movepool is huge, his stats and ability are amazing and he's only gonna get better. tera flying shreds neutral targets. tera fire destroys fairies and steels trying to wall it as well as stopping ice shards. tera water's aqua jet hits so much for neutral. tera normal espeed hits like a truck and a half. there are so many options for any counter trying to stop this behemoth. fear him.
I'll be back with more soon, this meta is the most fun i've had since my old gen 7 screens HO days.
Slither Wing @ Assault Vest/Heavy Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression/Leech Life
- Close Combat
- U-turn/Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz/Earthquake/Will-o-Wisp
This is the best bug type hands down. Great typing, bulk, good priority and coverage, excellent power. It can threaten out or force a tera on many metagame staples like roaring moon, chi-yu, chien-pao, and more as well as being a versatile terastilizer itself, destroying would be checks like corv and clodsire with tera fire flare blitz and tera ground quake respectively. U-turn is great because this forces so much out with first impression. if only it got roost...
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Yache Berry
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Flying/Fire/Water/Ground/Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed/Aqua Jet
- Outrage/Dragon Claw/Tera Blast
- Tera Blast/Fire Punch/Earthquake/Waterfall
in my humble opinion dragonite is still the best setup sweeper. he doesnt have the raw power that roaring moon, iron valiant and Chien-Pao boast, but what he does have is versatility and multiscale. The options i have listed above don't even scratch the surface of dnite's potential. His movepool is huge, his stats and ability are amazing and he's only gonna get better. tera flying shreds neutral targets. tera fire destroys fairies and steels trying to wall it as well as stopping ice shards. tera water's aqua jet hits so much for neutral. tera normal espeed hits like a truck and a half. there are so many options for any counter trying to stop this behemoth. fear him.
I'll be back with more soon, this meta is the most fun i've had since my old gen 7 screens HO days.
yeah it's seemed pretty underwhelming when ive used it. having to wear boots really hurts it.
The boost from the paradox abilities was first thought to be 1.5 to all stats so 1.5 boost when applied to speed is still unchanged.
As for the iron bundle being broken, I'm unsure at the moment. Certainly seems strong on paper but it's certainly no flutter mane level of dominant force. I personally never had too much trouble against it or as much success when using it to call it broken. I'd like more time with iron bundle to not make any hasty personal opinions of my own.
I'm not sure if iron bundle alone will hinder pult's usage to be "much" as you said. It certainly doesn't help but I don't know if iron bundle will be so ubiquitous and so dominant to result in abysmal pult usage. Dragapult always had answers even in gen 8 that were top tier in variability lists and usage rates but pult always managed to be a top tier mon with high usage in the end. This is a very different meta however and we will have to see but I still see dragapult to have one of the highest potentials in a meta where flutter mane is now gone.
It lives only getting 2HKO'd any priority move that isn't named vaccum wave. (And who runs vaccum wave anyway...) I saw the calcs for absurd priority like breloom mach punch, scizor bullet punch, and even ekiller dragonite can't okho it.
Yeah rocks hurt it and hazard control sucks this gen but that is really it for downsides other than being specially frail and walled by blissey. (Still broken.)
Yeah pult can be a check but not when bundle is under terrain, so it is flawed as a check.
All-out attacking sets are fairly straightforward to handle IMO, I dont think Specs is all that powerful once the defensive counterplay adapts to running mons that take neutral damage from Pump and Freeze Dry to scout.
Also the "just use priority" argument is kinda iffy because 1) Bundle's PDef is surprisingly high - It can tank an unboosted adamant mach punch from breloom - and 2) you can always tera your bundle - most commonly probably to pure water.
Issue is the set-up sets with agility I think, as they can tear apart defensive cores, and then proceed to sweep through everything else due to being at +2 speed. This set does struggle more into offense though, specs Jolly Bundle would be a lot better vs that than Modest Agility Booster. But I can very well be wrong and Bundle could be completely fine, this is mostly theorycrafting while I wait for the bans (and now mechanics) to be implemented.
I def think Glaceon can rely on it being actually hard to switch into to bait a special wall and set up Calm Mind to go for a... short sweep because like 80% of the OU metagame, but against slo and bulky walls Glaceon could be a good wallbreaker if used correctly
Basically if you don't want to switch into the speed creep that is Iron Bundle, why would you want to switch into Glaceon, who is slower but hits just as hard with the STABs? (I know Glaceon doesn't pack a Water STAB unlike Iron Bundle but Tera Water immediately solves the issue too)
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