Metagame Views From The Council

[Finchinator]

Finch I never thought I'd say this but is a stored power ban actually possible? Say like I could prove it breaks 3+ mons could it at least be glanced at?

Possible? Yes. Likely at this exact moment? No.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Before we consider dropping mage can we please ban stored power I'm not dealing with that imebcillic damn set again I'm already pissed off enough at latias veil trying to cheese wins

Finch I never thought I'd say this but is a stored power ban actually possible? Say like I could prove it breaks 3+ mons could it at least be glanced at?

It makes Magearna, Espathra, and debatably Polteageist broken in OU, and then Latias broken in UU which would be affected by the ban as well, Comfey Polteageist and Manaphy in RU, etc. Seriously filter by stored power and check out the BL results. More Broken users in just about every tier than Shed Tail and Last Respects had and yet it's for some reason not been seriously looked at.

 

[Finchinator]

Polteageist broken in OU

Not too sure about this one chief

 

[Mikegengsta]

It makes Magearna, Espathra, and debatably Polteageist broken in OU, and then Latias broken in UU which would be affected by the ban as well, Comfey Polteageist and Manaphy in RU, etc. Seriously filter by stored power and check out the BL results. More Broken users in just about every tier than Shed Tail and Last Respects had and yet it's for some reason not been seriously looked at.

Polteageist broken in OU? This would have been the debate to bring it up pre DLC when psyspam was at its peak but right now, I don’t think so.

 

[Finchinator]

Stored Power didn’t definitively break Magearna. It was very broken regardless of Stored Power last generation and it had a wide array of viable strategies when allowed this generation, too.

Latias is perfectly balanced. Teapot is perfectly balanced contrary to your claim. Hatterene is perfectly balanced. Espathra was very broken, but you can attribute this to speed boost allowing it to power up regardless of what it did as well.

I would personally love for Stored Power to go; it is an annoying move with hit-or-miss tendencies that makes the game less fun for me. However, that alone is not enough to ban something and we have not yet hit the burden of proof needed to act on a move.

If we get there, I’ll be the first signaling to act.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Mark my words i will be going out of my way to get a suspect on stupid ahh stored power most bullshit move ever combined with even more bullshit tera and i am very happy that the council is treating it as such and not bringing up random nonsense like just roar them or haze them or meaningless stuff like use a dark type lmfao.

 

[sims796]

Mark my words i will be going out of my way to get a suspect on stupid ahh stored power most bullshit move ever combined with even more bullshit tera and i am very happy that the council is treating it as such and not bringing up random nonsense like just roar them or haze them or meaningless stuff like use a dark type lmfao.

Wish you luck! I hope you fail, but only because SP has literally carried me. Don't make me actually learn how to play the game!

Oh, I think I helped prove your point...

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

If Stored Power gets looked at, then time to abuse Power Trip kek

 

[Heatranator]

If Stored Power gets looked at, then time to abuse Power Trip kek

The only mons that have it that are really fast/have a way to boost their speed are Krookodile, Zangoose, Corviknight and Empoleon. Empoleon has trash attack, so it would have to get a lot of boosts to threaten a sweep. Corviknight is bulkier and can boost with agility, but still isn't strong first off. Zangoose is frail and would rather use toxic boost, while krookodile has it's own problems of having only alright speed and no way to boost its speed. Power trip ain't getting banned.

No, this is not because I like power trip Corv and I want to keep using that set to cheese wins sometimes. Shut up

 

[DartTamarin519]

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but it is council related-ish.

For tiering it seems there are two main or broad ways to do it. This is for banning offensive threats. Banning from a defensive view and banning from an offensive view.

Kyurem was a mon that was very ban-worthy from a defensive view. Specs could 2HKO so much of the tier and boots could threw off counters with a mixed set or coverage. From an offensive view it wasn't ban-worthy. It was quite slow compared to other offensive threats, has a poor defensive typing, and specs was easier to take advantage of.

Is this idea true? And does the council have defensive oriented and offensive oriented ideas? The playerbase seems to be divided and those could often be the two side of suspect tests.

 

[Duck Chris]

I don't know if this is the right spot to post this, but it is council related-ish.

For tiering it seems there are two main or broad ways to do it. This is for banning offensive threats. Banning from a defensive view and banning from an offensive view.

Kyurem was a mon that was very ban-worthy from a defensive view. Specs could 2HKO so much of the tier and boots could threw off counters with a mixed set or coverage. From an offensive view it wasn't ban-worthy. It was quite slow compared to other offensive threats, has a poor defensive typing, and specs was easier to take advantage of.

Is this idea true? And does the council have defensive oriented and offensive oriented ideas? The playerbase seems to be divided and those could often be the two side of suspect tests.

I feel like this isn't that true, as some things that lack defensive checks like for example Ursaluna are still relatively fine considering how often it gets checked offensively. Similarly pokemon like Toxapex can eat almost any offensive hit, but have wide defensive counterplay and are relatively passive, inviting in opponents defensive and utility options

 

[pika pal]

As far as the unban discussion that was brought up, my one criteria would be that we focus on things with defensive utility (I bring this up only because the random-example given is Chien-Pao, who lacks any while running over more offensive and less-bulky Balance builds), since the tier's biggest hurdle right now is a lot of Offensive entities (The Sun Dragons, Arch pending Suspect, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Kyurem, and some pre-existing stuff like Rillaboom, Weavile etc). I don't know if anything exists that would have a net positive effect at the moment but this is at least where my mind is. Closest example I could pick is Magcargo listing Dialga-Origin, which gains a bit of initial power and retains a lot of Archaludon's decent defensive offering in exchange for losing its big Snowball tools (Rain ES and Stamina/Body Press), with a typing and power that lets it more healthily trade/soft-check things without itself becoming the thing that is strenuous to check.

It's interesting to me how many Pokemon both OU and Uber banned are ones where I can say "this thing is a real headache but also does a lot I don't want to get rid of" like the aforementioned Kingambit, Dragapult being a go to offensive check/RK, or Gholdengo's defensive traits outside GaG.

 

[DartTamarin519]

I feel like this isn't that true, as some things that lack defensive checks like for example Ursaluna are still relatively fine considering how often it gets checked offensively. Similarly pokemon like Toxapex can eat almost any offensive hit, but have wide defensive counterplay and are relatively passive, inviting in opponents defensive and utility options

My idea doesn't really apply to defensive mons. Tiering of defensive mons is weird at more complicated. For the Ursaluna example, if tiered completely from a defensive standpoint it is super broken. And what you pointed out is: on the flip side it is underwhelming. Very slow with good physical bulk, but under average special bulk. Its typing doesn't help, other than two immunities. In a less HO or offense oriented meta game Ursaluna would be much stronger.

Most wallbreakers are "balanced" like Ursaluna. Iron Hands, Conkeldurr, Hoopa-Unbound, and notoriously Rampardos. Those are slow and, when playing against HO or just a faster offense team, they struggle to do something in every game.

I'm sorry my thoughts are kind of crazy and all over the place. I'm relatively new to Pokémon, but I like to learn by making theories and seeing if they are right.

 

[Duck Chris]

I'm sorry my thoughts are kind of crazy and all over the place. I'm relatively new to Pokémon, but I like to learn by making theories and seeing if they are right.

Yep I think you are on the right track with balancing the pokemon with respect to the context of the current metagame. What I meant was just that focusing only on defensive or offensive balance isn't enough as it really has to be about the context of that toolkit as a whole

 

[Lucky $trike]

I asked this in the metagame thread but didn’t get many replies. Have the weather rocks has not been seriously considered to be banned in some way? I think that with rain gone, sun’s dominance will become clear again. The combination of Tera+weather+the new tools this gen has give mons (proto, electroshot) have made threats like Gouging Fire, Wake, Raging Bolt, even Barraskewda (I know it’s not broken, just able to muscle through walls) overpowering. Choice Banded Gouging Fire has no switch ins under sun, especially with Tera Fire.
A lot of people who voted DNB for Arch argued that it’s only broken in rain, there were similar arguments during the Wake suspect. I think suspecting the weather rocks could be a good mid-ground as people get to keep pokemon they feel are important to the meta without having to worry about running Glowking to change the weather or finding a perfect way to sequence around Gounging Fire or another weather breaker.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I asked this in the metagame thread but didn’t get many replies. Have the weather rocks has not been seriously considered to be banned in some way? I think that with rain gone, sun’s dominance will become clear again. The combination of Tera+weather+the new tools this gen has give mons (proto, electroshot) have made threats like Gouging Fire, Wake, Raging Bolt, even Barraskewda (I know it’s not broken, just able to muscle through walls) overpowering. Choice Banded Gouging Fire has no switch ins under sun, especially with Tera Fire.
A lot of people who voted DNB for Arch argued that it’s only broken in rain, there were similar arguments during the Wake suspect. I think suspecting the weather rocks could be a good mid-ground as people get to keep pokemon they feel are important to the meta without having to worry about running Glowking to change the weather or finding a perfect way to sequence around Gounging Fire or another weather breaker.

A large point that I know Finch has been stating is that we can’t truly predict what will happen after a ban in the tier, so there’s not much point in doing so. Instead, it may be better to take a pause after a ban to see what happens.
In regards to weather, it’s true that sun will likely become better after Arch is banned, but other things will as well, which may free some tools to better counter sun as well. We’ll have to wait and see.
But, if things stay problematic in regards to weather, I’m sure rock bans will be considered. Now is not that time tho. At the very least, if people want to change the metagame, and believe rain has a detrimental effect, I think voting ban on rain would be the best option rn, even if it isn’t the best option overall in said voter’s eyes.

 

[Lucky $trike]

A large point that I know Finch has been stating is that we can’t truly predict what will happen after a ban in the tier, so there’s not much point in doing so. Instead, it may be better to take a pause after a ban to see what happens.
In regards to weather, it’s true that sun will likely become better after Arch is banned, but other things will as well, which may free some tools to better counter sun as well. We’ll have to wait and see.
But, if things stay problematic in regards to weather, I’m sure rock bans will be considered. Now is not that time tho. At the very least, if people want to change the metagame, and believe rain has a detrimental effect, I think voting ban on rain would be the best option rn, even if it isn’t the best option overall in said voter’s eyes.

Yeah I don’t want to speculate too much, the meta definitely needs it reset. I’ve just noticed weather, and the Pokémon that benefit from it, has been problematic multiple times through out the meta.

 

[Go Go Nihilego]

Traditional checks and counters do not exist in a Tera metagame. It’s kind of insane to me that the community appears to have decided that’s ok, but since that’s what we’re working with I can see the merit in unbanning bulkier Ubers. Type matchups matter less when you have raw BST after all. Or we can just keep pretending that half the tier larping as fairy types to get the 50/50 mindgame right vs broken dragon of the week doing the same exact thing is ok.

 

[xavgb]

I asked this in the metagame thread but didn’t get many replies. Have the weather rocks has not been seriously considered to be banned in some way? I think that with rain gone, sun’s dominance will become clear again. The combination of Tera+weather+the new tools this gen has give mons (proto, electroshot) have made threats like Gouging Fire, Wake, Raging Bolt, even Barraskewda (I know it’s not broken, just able to muscle through walls) overpowering. Choice Banded Gouging Fire has no switch ins under sun, especially with Tera Fire.
A lot of people who voted DNB for Arch argued that it’s only broken in rain, there were similar arguments during the Wake suspect. I think suspecting the weather rocks could be a good mid-ground as people get to keep pokemon they feel are important to the meta without having to worry about running Glowking to change the weather or finding a perfect way to sequence around Gounging Fire or another weather breaker.

As a council member this is something I've personally considered because I dislike the state of both rain and sun in the current meta, but I think it's basically impossible to sell this as a first option from a tiering perspective. Smogon Tiering heavily favours banning Pokemon over anything else unless there's a really good reason not to, and in the case of rain and sun, there isn't really any time in the development of SV OU that I can point to where either of those styles were broken (until now). Basically the conversation would have gone something like this:

1: "Hey, can we ban Damp Rock"

2: "Why do you want to ban Damp Rock"

1: "Okay so there's this really cracked pokemon with a better Meteor Beam and it's killing everything"

2: "Have you considered just banning that pokemon"

The scope of weather structures hasn't really fundamentally changed from previous times in this gen and other gens where weather has been balanced, so it's hard to argue that this particular combination of Swift Swim Water type + Grass resist that has few switchins is broken where other similar combos haven't. It's much easier to put this development down to the fact that Archaludon is really fuckin strong, so it makes sense to look at the overtuned mon before going for nuclear options. If we were to nerf rain directly, I would need to be able to provide some direct evidence for the playstyle itself being the problem, either by showing a chain of multiple bans that were required to balance out the playstyle, or by citing relevant past examples where the playstyle had become broken, and as it stands I cant really do either right now.

As a quick note in case anyone is confused, it's much harder to push for a non-Pokemon ban as a solution here than it was with sleep. In the case of sleep, we were effectively trading an existing non-Pokemon restriction, for a different non-Pokemon restriction (Sleep Clause vs Sleep Moves Clause). In the current situation with rain and sun, we'd be actively adding an extra item ban to solve a problem that could likely be addressed with pokemon bans.

 

[Lucky $trike]

As a council member this is something I've personally considered because I dislike the state of both rain and sun in the current meta, but I think it's basically impossible to sell this as a first option from a tiering perspective. Smogon Tiering heavily favours banning Pokemon over anything else unless there's a really good reason not to, and in the case of rain and sun, there isn't really any time in the development of SV OU that I can point to where either of those styles were broken (until now). Basically the conversation would have gone something like this:

1: "Hey, can we ban Damp Rock"

2: "Why do you want to ban Damp Rock"

1: "Okay so there's this really cracked pokemon with a better Meteor Beam and it's killing everything"

2: "Have you considered just banning that pokemon"

The scope of weather structures hasn't really fundamentally changed from previous times in this gen and other gens where weather has been balanced, so it's hard to argue that this particular combination of Swift Swim Water type + Grass resist that has few switchins is broken where other similar combos haven't. It's much easier to put this development down to the fact that Archaludon is really fuckin strong, so it makes sense to look at the overtuned mon before going for nuclear options. If we were to nerf rain directly, I would need to be able to provide some direct evidence for the playstyle itself being the problem, either by showing a chain of multiple bans that were required to balance out the playstyle, or by citing relevant past examples where the playstyle had become broken, and as it stands I cant really do either right now.

As a quick note in case anyone is confused, it's much harder to push for a non-Pokemon ban as a solution here than it was with sleep. In the case of sleep, we were effectively trading an existing non-Pokemon restriction, for a different non-Pokemon restriction (Sleep Clause vs Sleep Moves Clause). In the current situation with rain and sun, we'd be actively adding an extra item ban to solve a problem that could likely be addressed with pokemon bans.

Thanks for the reply. That definitely makes sense. I guess my logic was 4 of the pokemon Finchinator mentioned in his “potentially problematic” post were weather based. I guess my logic is with Tera+proto weather isn’t really comparable to previous generations. I figured that the weather rock ban would be a faster way to nerf major threats since the meta seems 2-3 moves away from being balanced (at least for players who play more BO/fat).
I see what you’re saying though, it’s definitely better to address the root cause of a meta issue rather than try and circumvent it with shakey tiering policy.

 

[Avira]

As far as the unban discussion that was brought up, my one criteria would be that we focus on things with defensive utility (I bring this up only because the random-example given is Chien-Pao, who lacks any while running over more offensive and less-bulky Balance builds), since the tier's biggest hurdle right now is a lot of Offensive entities (The Sun Dragons, Arch pending Suspect, Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Kyurem, and some pre-existing stuff like Rillaboom, Weavile etc). I don't know if anything exists that would have a net positive effect at the moment but this is at least where my mind is. Closest example I could pick is Magcargo listing Dialga-Origin, which gains a bit of initial power and retains a lot of Archaludon's decent defensive offering in exchange for losing its big Snowball tools (Rain ES and Stamina/Body Press), with a typing and power that lets it more healthily trade/soft-check things without itself becoming the thing that is strenuous to check.

I'm sorry. I tend to really enjoy your posts, but Dialga-Origin would not be my first, second, or even third choice (those would be be Lugia, Giratina-Altered and Zamazenta-Crowned although I think we should be banning more Pokemon from OU rather than dropping Ubers into OU) for an Uber drop as its much higher Special Attack stat compared to Archaludon coupled with Adamant Crystal and the higher speed means that shit does enormous damage to everything aside from the fattest of walls or mons that resist both of its STABs. Timid Dialga-Origin's Draco Meteor is stronger than Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor for reference while being much fatter with a much better defensive typing, and it has a 25% chance of OHKOing through Dragonite's Multiscale.

Just look at this set:

Dialga-Origin @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 307-363 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 526-619 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 360-424 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 204-241 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 307-363 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 283-334 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 352-415 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 133-157 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 102-122 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- 9.5% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 112-132 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 471-555 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 316-372 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 250-296 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 380-450 (97.1 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 157-186 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 254-302 (74.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 292-345 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
36 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dialga-Origin: 109-130 (31.8 - 38%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 382-450 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 297-349 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 148-176 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 177-208 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 252-297 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 270-320 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So basically, the only mons relevant in OU that win against Dialga-Origin in a 1v1 situation without blowing their Teras are Blissey, Clodsire, SpDef Corviknight, Landorus-Therian, Assault Vest Primarina, Roaring Moon, Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, and Volcarona. I'm sorry, but Dialga-Origin is clearly an Uber-caliber mon. This shit should not be tested in OU when it wins against the vast majority of OU. It is clearly offensively overtuned.

If you want to talk about unban candidates, there are mons with weaker offenses or worse base typings such as Lugia or Giratina-Altered. I don't think there's a case for any mon this gen that we've already banned to be dropped to OU.

 

[pika pal]

I'm sorry. I tend to really enjoy your posts, but Dialga-Origin would not be my first, second, or third choice (those would be be Lugia, Giratina-Altered and Zamazenta-Crowned although I think we should be banning more Pokemon from OU rather than dropping Ubers into OU) for an Uber drop as its much higher Special Attack stat compared to Archaludon coupled with Adamant Crystal and the higher speed means that shit does enormous damage to everything aside from the fattest of walls or mons that resist both of its STABs. Timid Dialga-Origin's Draco Meteor is stronger than Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor for reference while being much fatter with a much better defensive typing, and it has 25% chance of OHKOing through Dragonite's Multiscale.

Just look at this set:

Dialga-Origin @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 307-363 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 526-619 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 360-424 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 204-241 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 307-363 (100.9 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 283-334 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 352-415 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 133-157 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 102-122 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- 9.5% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 112-132 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 471-555 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 316-372 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 326-386 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 250-296 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem: 380-450 (97.1 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 157-186 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 254-302 (74.2 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 292-345 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
36 SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dialga-Origin: 109-130 (31.8 - 38%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 382-450 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 297-349 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Dialga-Origin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 148-176 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 177-208 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 252-297 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dialga-Origin: 270-320 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So basically, the only mons relevant in OU that win against Dialga-Origin in a 1v1 situation without blowing their Teras are Blissey, Clodsire, SpDef Corviknight, Landorus-Therian, Assault Vest Primarina, Roaring Moon, Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, and Volcarona. I'm sorry, but Dialga-Origin is clearly an Uber-caliber mon. This shit should not be tested in OU when it wins against the vast majority of OU.

If you want to talk about unban candidates, there are mons with weaker offenses or worse base typings such as Lugia or Giratina-Altered. I don't think there's a case for any mon this gen that we've already banned to be dropped to OU.

I did say "closest" about it immediately following my point that I couldn't think of anything I actually thought to be a net positive anyway. Lugia and Giratina would be terrible picks because they're centralizing levels of fat and don't do anything to curtail the offensive overdrive of the tier either, simply becoming match-up dependent win conditions that either survive for multiple turns boosting or hit like wet noodles into teams that don't need to break every target quickly.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Given that Lugia has lost both toxic and thunder wave, it's very vulnerable to status now, and is a tera hog too. If I were to unban anything, Lugia would be my first choice.

 

[Eeveeto]

Given that Lugia has lost both toxic and thunder wave, it's very vulnerable to status now, and is a tera hog too. If I were to unban anything, Lugia would be my first choice.

If it had Defog, maybe. But as it is, I don,t see anything positive this 680 BST Mon can bring to OU. It will end up being either a Whirlwind cancer in Spike Stack teams or CM + Stored Power cancer. Not broken, but won,t make OU better and doesn,t even reliably beat the actual broken Mons.

Giratina-A has a better cause for being OU, but its not even close to a good moment to talk about it either.

 

[Avira]

If it had Defog, maybe. But as it is, I don,t see anything positive this 680 BST Mon can bring to OU. It will end up being either a Whirlwind cancer in Spike Stack teams or CM + Stored Power cancer. Not broken, but won,t make OU better and doesn,t even reliably beat the actual broken Mons.

Giratina-A has a better cause for being OU, but its not even close to a good moment to talk about it either.

Lugia does not learn Stored Power. For some reason, people think all Psychic-type Pokemon learn Stored Power.