actually there's a really good reason that kyurem looks broken
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Wasn't part of the reason it was broken in Gen 8 the pp roost stalling set? Like on top of every other set it could just outstall it's checks. I know it doesn't have roost anymore, but leftovers is still pretty good healing.
I think it was part of, but the addition of the Heavy-Duty Boots, Freeze-Dry, Earth Power, Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear all also shot Kyurem out of irrelevancy and into a bonafide Uber Pokemon. It's basically the same here minus Roost but with the addition of Tera and Chilly Reception.
not adding much to the discussion here, but did anyone else think that arch was gonna be like an ru mon when it was first revealed. I thought electro shot was gonna give it just a small niche on rain teams on the same level as something like Overqwil or Azumarill. maybe im just dumb but did anyone else think this too?
I thought it would kinda up in a similarish situation to Hisuian Goodra, as I assumed its BST would be under 600 (arch is the only non-psuedo "regular" Pokemon to have 600 BST) + believed it wouldn't be able to succeed in a hazard metagame. I am very much glad that I was wrong, though perhaps I underestimated it a bit TOO much. I wasn't entirely sure of how good it would be on rain with Ting-Lu being on most teams + hazard control in general still being rough, though it turned out a lot better than I initially expected. This is in part due to the mechanics of Electro Shot, which is boosting your special attack regardless of whether the attack actually lands on the foe.
On non-rain teams, defensive Stealth Rock sets on G-Terrain and Focus Energy sets have also had some success, which IMO has also been more impressive than what Hisuian Goodra has been able to do thusfar.
yeah exactly. i thought it was gonna be like goodra H 2.0. and electro shots mechanics not being known until release was definitely a big reason i thought this.
Hi. And no not really, since, when I first saw it, I immediately thought of electro shot tera electric rain spam not knowing it would get body press and most people using tera fighting instead. Even though I'm more of a Natdex player. I enjoy playing Arch with tera electric and then immediately dying after a land-t spams eq or smth (I like using specs arch for extra raw power)
.i was an arch believer since day 1, but i heavily underestimated electro shot and thought it would serve mainly as a specially strong phazer/utility mon, kind of like dialga in uubers (actually, almost exactly like dialga in uubers) except with stamina body press. i mean, it's got stealth rock, dragon tail, thunder wave, the defensive tools are all there for it to be a top-tier mon even in the absence of electro cheat
I thought it was going to be a UU mon that would have a decent niche in OU as a premier physical wall that could threaten back huge damage. It's special defense would hold it back, but I guess I was wrong.
No. Dragon/Steel is an amazing typing and Stamina is an amazing ability. Assault Vest can always make up for some special defense weakness if the typing and HP are good enough. Gen 9 is also the most power crept gen ever, so my belief that anything new that seems even remotely strong won't be completely broken is quite low.
Personally, I think even Arch outside of rain is underrated on how broken it is. And no, Tera doesn't help with that. Suddenly your bad matchups aren't and you get free Stamina boosts. This isn't an argument I care to get into, though, because enough people agree rain Arch alone is bad enough to ban it. The other details aren't important.
i do have to interject and say that dragon/steel is good, but it isn't as spectacular as it appears at first glance. sure, it's only got two weaknesses and a ton of resistances, but the weaknesses happen to be two extremely common move types, and the resistances it doesn't have are very important ones—it's a dragon-type that doesn't resist fire, and a steel-type that doesn't resist dragon or ice. these things are especially important when we've got broken fire-types, broken ice-types and broken dragon-types running around
Talking about pp stalling, has Power Trip Corv had any usage?
It's like how normal/psychic should be an amazing typing as it's only weak to U-turn and dark. But in practice it is bad because it doesn't have many useful resistances. I would rather have a mon that has many resistances but many weaknesses than one with few weaknesses but few resistances.
Being weak to a one common type is worse than being weak to many uncommon types, but resisting a common type.
Corv is alright, but it has stiff competition with registeel, which has better walling capabilities and amnesia boosting. It could be good, but you would have to not use registeel which is a big downgrade.
Assault Vest doesn't automatically make up for bad SpD. It isn't common on Tusk after all.
Assault Vest just breaks on Archaludon because it still gets to be a super setup monster despite the vest.
Assault Vest just breaks on Archaludon because it still gets to be a super setup monster despite the vest.
Hello everyone im just dropping by to say that "if only that mon gets a move that breaks it, its the mon itself thats broken, not the move" has gotta be the faultiest statement ive ever seen, stored power breaks some mons, but we ban the mons instead like espathra, in the discussion of archaludon, it is obvious and as clear as day its not the problem at hand, electro shot, and rain are the roots of the problem, its like cutting branches off a tree and leaving the roots, to get rid of the tree that will grow back anyway, what is an ideal meta? Youll never arrive at it with tera theres always gonna be a top dog dominating, and thats completely fine , this is why im pro tera because nothing remains at the top for very long, but banning rage fist and keeping annihilape, banning jet punch and keeping palafin, banning electro shot and keeping archaludon doesnt impact the tier because those mons r the only ones who get the moves.
if the idea is to have a diverse meta, why not seize opportunities to keep pokemon by banning signature moves if those sigs break those pokemon, rain will never fall off, cuz post archaludon we have raging bolt and we have people who actually think its a problem, which is ridiculous, without the flip turn, the rain setter and the treads lead, without electro shot, archaludon is nothing but a nice check to meta threats like gambit and roaring moon, itll never be too overpowered once its factors get removed, i think the extender rocks should get the suspect here, helps with the sun threats and the rain threats, all the extender items, light clay etc, if you can ban sleep and make up an excuse saying "its closer to the cartridge" we can ban the rocks and say "its closer to a balanced and diverse metagame"
You can be against this stance i dont care, fight me, counterplay isnt just hard counters, thats absolutely ridiculous, soft checks, offensive checks, AGGRESSIVE checks, are all considered counterplay in my books, defensive or offensive, its still counterplay, should explain my list, u know what positioning is in a game, its crucial to position momentum to win a game. My definition of counterplay: be able to kill, force tera to revenge, cripple a pokemon with a status, weaken to low range, ability to switch in more than once, ability to switch in once, and ability to kill in 1 hit, all happen to be counterplay in my books, so dont come at my list of archaludon checks, this is my definition of counterplay, everybody has their own, and u cant change mine.
We need to learn to start assessing the roots of the problems at hand instead of outright assessing the pokemon all the time, we have a survey every 2 weeks , we have a small vocal minority on smogon supporting this, and the vast majority who play showdown, and non vocal playerbase on smogon that have stayed silent and let the circle jerk run the tier, its the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen , you lose to something too much in spl, everyone pays for it just cuz you cant adapt, not only am i coming at the policy (oh and dw ill consider putting it in policy review thread but im addressing more than just that in this post) , im coming at the premise that spl winrates determine what should be banned or not when ladder winrates should be calculated aswell, by that logic we should ban barraskewda, so im calling for a suspect on the extender weather rocks, and possibly light clay, but the only way we get it is if the public gets behind it, the majority of you are smart individuals , the circle jerk is very small in the suspect thread consists of only like 30 salty users, but here we are smart enough to realise that rain is the issue at hand if we keep banning rain abusers we end up with a less diverse metagame so this is what i propose:
Make a poll, with these questions( DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ARGUE MY PROPOSITION WITHOUT MAKING THE POLL AND DISPROVING IT THAT WAY WITH PUBLIC INPUT FIRST, WE ARE DEMOCRATIC):
Would you be opposed to suspecting electro shot or damp rock over archaludon?
Would you just like to ban Archaludon blindly without acknowledging its root issues?
Would archaludon still be considered unhealthy without its massive rain support and 8 rain turns?
Because trick room if it had an extender item, we would be banning ursaluna, and slow offensive threats aswell, which would eventually lead to us banning the extender, which proves my argument.
if you all are not opposed to my idea of testing the damp rock or the move electro shot, please vote do not ban.
Also, i can disprove the move ban fetish by saying we banned last respects a DAY before other users of the move dropped, only houndstone had it, we seemed uncertain if it was the move or the mon when it was clearly the move, because after we banned houndstone, we banned last respects a day before the other users dropped, and then unbanned houndstone, we didnt prove it was broken on other users which goes against the faulty policy anyway.
i would even go as far as to suggest, if signature moves are exclusive to one pokemon, and it breaks that pokemon it should be okay by precedent to test the move, not the pokemon, because if the pokemon becomes problematic without the move, u can just ban it, but give it a chance to thrive without the move, theres no harm in any of the rest of the tier if this is done since no other pokemon get the move.
And if you do not agree with this, make a poll and watch how much support this suggestion gets, because its more sensible than what the policy has to say, i would even encourage you all to put this in the policy review thread.
I think a metagame should be able to develop before we blindly act on stuff so quickly, whats the point of playing a tier if theres a survey every 2 weeks, it should be every 2-3 months, to give everything a chance to adapt, lemme juggle some memories here:
walking wake: everyone wanted this banned when it first came out, even you finch, this was by far the most broken in the eyes of the public, we ended up keeping it, and what happened, people adapted so nicely that you even admitted that u liked how they adapted, and spammable stab hydro steam draco, is wa y more spammable and easier to click than electro shot draco, atleast electro shot draco could be handled by clod, treads, hippo etc, wake required not only a bulky water, but a protect fairy aswell for defensive counterplay, remember?, And the rest was offensive counterplay, it ended up just fine, you can act on archaludon later but let people adapt to it first see if the hype dies down dont act on it so quickly.
hazards + gholdengo: Everyone wanted this banned when it first came out aswell, and what happened, we adapted (a bit less nicely than wake haha cuz dengo is kinda dumb), but we did adapt , and we were able to play in a meta where gholdengo was now deemed balanced by method of adaptation.
Dragonite: he dominated the meta for a few weeks early gen9, and there was a ban movement for him, now hes nowhere to be seen because we adapted, but its still good though, but now you see people dont view it as an issue anymore
iron Valiant: okay there was even a movement for this on release, i can confirm to you there is no counterplay to all iron valiant sets with the move terablast and tera in general included, encore sets, sd sets, cm sets, setup + encore sets, they can all cheese any mu with the right tera, this would be an example that no counterplay to every single set in a tera meta =/= broken, thats the case for each mon with tera, which is why this metagame is so unique, tera makes every matchup possible, so theres no impossible mus, absolutely the right move to not act on it, but in the future u can bring up the discussion, but until the day i die, im pro no restriction, keep the mechanic alive.
iron moth pre home: people said the only counters were blissey and ting lu, which still died to some sets, we adapted to this pokemon very nicely, it became even better with the dlcs, but no1 cared to explore it so thats why they dont see it, but if we can test arch, we can test this
garganacl : man this thing is still dumb as hell LOOOL, people tried to adapt, they never did, garg right now, has felt so dominant on the ladder and in tours, its way dumber than arch cuz it requires no support and spreads salt cure and rocks, free status absorber, free ghost resist, its ridiculous.
Ctc and others have made a lot of great points in his post about meta diversity and this further proves it, i was convinced that arch wasnt the issue, its the roots of the problem at hand, the weather extender rocks test, and the electro shot test, it allows the meta to keep arch while taming it, so we can have nice defensive utility that can set hazards. Have a nice day yall =), again i wont be reading responses just stating my personal opinions and unloading thoughts, any questions about my post, im a pm away , im on showdown as relic stone, my discord tag is stormzone , if u want a discussion, id be happy to discuss, and as always, if received negatively, then ignore my post, dont even react, if received positively show ur support with the heart reaction.
if the idea is to have a diverse meta, why not seize opportunities to keep pokemon by banning signature moves if those sigs break those pokemon, rain will never fall off, cuz post archaludon we have raging bolt and we have people who actually think its a problem, which is ridiculous, without the flip turn, the rain setter and the treads lead, without electro shot, archaludon is nothing but a nice check to meta threats like gambit and roaring moon, itll never be too overpowered once its factors get removed, i think the extender rocks should get the suspect here, helps with the sun threats and the rain threats, all the extender items, light clay etc, if you can ban sleep and make up an excuse saying "its closer to the cartridge" we can ban the rocks and say "its closer to a balanced and diverse metagame"
You can be against this stance i dont care, fight me, counterplay isnt just hard counters, thats absolutely ridiculous, soft checks, offensive checks, AGGRESSIVE checks, are all considered counterplay in my books, defensive or offensive, its still counterplay, should explain my list, u know what positioning is in a game, its crucial to position momentum to win a game. My definition of counterplay: be able to kill, force tera to revenge, cripple a pokemon with a status, weaken to low range, ability to switch in more than once, ability to switch in once, and ability to kill in 1 hit, all happen to be counterplay in my books, so dont come at my list of archaludon checks, this is my definition of counterplay, everybody has their own, and u cant change mine.
We need to learn to start assessing the roots of the problems at hand instead of outright assessing the pokemon all the time, we have a survey every 2 weeks , we have a small vocal minority on smogon supporting this, and the vast majority who play showdown, and non vocal playerbase on smogon that have stayed silent and let the circle jerk run the tier, its the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen , you lose to something too much in spl, everyone pays for it just cuz you cant adapt, not only am i coming at the policy (oh and dw ill consider putting it in policy review thread but im addressing more than just that in this post) , im coming at the premise that spl winrates determine what should be banned or not when ladder winrates should be calculated aswell, by that logic we should ban barraskewda, so im calling for a suspect on the extender weather rocks, and possibly light clay, but the only way we get it is if the public gets behind it, the majority of you are smart individuals , the circle jerk is very small in the suspect thread consists of only like 30 salty users, but here we are smart enough to realise that rain is the issue at hand if we keep banning rain abusers we end up with a less diverse metagame so this is what i propose:
Make a poll, with these questions( DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ARGUE MY PROPOSITION WITHOUT MAKING THE POLL AND DISPROVING IT THAT WAY WITH PUBLIC INPUT FIRST, WE ARE DEMOCRATIC):
Would you be opposed to suspecting electro shot or damp rock over archaludon?
Would you just like to ban Archaludon blindly without acknowledging its root issues?
Would archaludon still be considered unhealthy without its massive rain support and 8 rain turns?
Because trick room if it had an extender item, we would be banning ursaluna, and slow offensive threats aswell, which would eventually lead to us banning the extender, which proves my argument.
if you all are not opposed to my idea of testing the damp rock or the move electro shot, please vote do not ban.
Also, i can disprove the move ban fetish by saying we banned last respects a DAY before other users of the move dropped, only houndstone had it, we seemed uncertain if it was the move or the mon when it was clearly the move, because after we banned houndstone, we banned last respects a day before the other users dropped, and then unbanned houndstone, we didnt prove it was broken on other users which goes against the faulty policy anyway.
i would even go as far as to suggest, if signature moves are exclusive to one pokemon, and it breaks that pokemon it should be okay by precedent to test the move, not the pokemon, because if the pokemon becomes problematic without the move, u can just ban it, but give it a chance to thrive without the move, theres no harm in any of the rest of the tier if this is done since no other pokemon get the move.
And if you do not agree with this, make a poll and watch how much support this suggestion gets, because its more sensible than what the policy has to say, i would even encourage you all to put this in the policy review thread.
I think a metagame should be able to develop before we blindly act on stuff so quickly, whats the point of playing a tier if theres a survey every 2 weeks, it should be every 2-3 months, to give everything a chance to adapt, lemme juggle some memories here:
walking wake: everyone wanted this banned when it first came out, even you finch, this was by far the most broken in the eyes of the public, we ended up keeping it, and what happened, people adapted so nicely that you even admitted that u liked how they adapted, and spammable stab hydro steam draco, is wa y more spammable and easier to click than electro shot draco, atleast electro shot draco could be handled by clod, treads, hippo etc, wake required not only a bulky water, but a protect fairy aswell for defensive counterplay, remember?, And the rest was offensive counterplay, it ended up just fine, you can act on archaludon later but let people adapt to it first see if the hype dies down dont act on it so quickly.
hazards + gholdengo: Everyone wanted this banned when it first came out aswell, and what happened, we adapted (a bit less nicely than wake haha cuz dengo is kinda dumb), but we did adapt , and we were able to play in a meta where gholdengo was now deemed balanced by method of adaptation.
Dragonite: he dominated the meta for a few weeks early gen9, and there was a ban movement for him, now hes nowhere to be seen because we adapted, but its still good though, but now you see people dont view it as an issue anymore
iron Valiant: okay there was even a movement for this on release, i can confirm to you there is no counterplay to all iron valiant sets with the move terablast and tera in general included, encore sets, sd sets, cm sets, setup + encore sets, they can all cheese any mu with the right tera, this would be an example that no counterplay to every single set in a tera meta =/= broken, thats the case for each mon with tera, which is why this metagame is so unique, tera makes every matchup possible, so theres no impossible mus, absolutely the right move to not act on it, but in the future u can bring up the discussion, but until the day i die, im pro no restriction, keep the mechanic alive.
iron moth pre home: people said the only counters were blissey and ting lu, which still died to some sets, we adapted to this pokemon very nicely, it became even better with the dlcs, but no1 cared to explore it so thats why they dont see it, but if we can test arch, we can test this
garganacl : man this thing is still dumb as hell LOOOL, people tried to adapt, they never did, garg right now, has felt so dominant on the ladder and in tours, its way dumber than arch cuz it requires no support and spreads salt cure and rocks, free status absorber, free ghost resist, its ridiculous.
Ctc and others have made a lot of great points in his post about meta diversity and this further proves it, i was convinced that arch wasnt the issue, its the roots of the problem at hand, the weather extender rocks test, and the electro shot test, it allows the meta to keep arch while taming it, so we can have nice defensive utility that can set hazards. Have a nice day yall =), again i wont be reading responses just stating my personal opinions and unloading thoughts, any questions about my post, im a pm away , im on showdown as relic stone, my discord tag is stormzone , if u want a discussion, id be happy to discuss, and as always, if received negatively, then ignore my post, dont even react, if received positively show ur support with the heart reaction.
∆While I agree with above guy in the Do Not Ban Archaludon idea, I am against banning Electro Shot or even Damp Rock, since Rain for me is not broken to begin with, just one more good playstyle, one of many. The only nerf Rain should get is Raging Bolt ban, but not even due to its strength in Rain itself.
Haven't seen anyone else run it but I've been running tera fire dnite and it works really well!
Just running a pretty basic set of
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Extreme Speed
Blocks wisp on its head, but I've found some really interesting interactions on top of the obvious!
- shuts down ID skarm and corv if you're already +1
- Positive match-up into Ogerpon-Wellspring(resist ivy cudgel on switch and then tera DD to resist Play rough)
- Immediate turnaround on ice beam
- Immediate turnaround on moonblast(take that Iron Valiant!)
-Helps against Dragon coverage in a pinch e.g. pult/kyurem draco
Have y'all ever seen this on ladder? I think it has a bit of potential with some moveset tweaks!
Just running a pretty basic set of
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Extreme Speed
Blocks wisp on its head, but I've found some really interesting interactions on top of the obvious!
- shuts down ID skarm and corv if you're already +1
- Positive match-up into Ogerpon-Wellspring(resist ivy cudgel on switch and then tera DD to resist Play rough)
- Immediate turnaround on ice beam
- Immediate turnaround on moonblast(take that Iron Valiant!)
-Helps against Dragon coverage in a pinch e.g. pult/kyurem draco
Have y'all ever seen this on ladder? I think it has a bit of potential with some moveset tweaks!
Isn't it better for us to at least ban the problematic pokemon like arch, rather than getting stuck in a limbo of deciding whether or not we should ban electro shot or Archaludon? We can have a discussion if the tiering policy of getting rid of the move or pokemon is good or bad, but the banning of Archaludon doesn't stop that discussion. We can always unban Archaludon if we come to the conclusion that we should ban the move and not the pokemon.
And for the damp rock ban you suggested, it goes against your own logic, you said
If we just change the word pokemon to damp rock, and move to arch(just like I did), we would have an argument on why arch should be banned first and not damp rock by your own logic(I personally disagree with that logic, but that is besides the point).
You wanting to ban the move electro shot or damp rock instead of Archaludon shouldn't be a reason to vote "Do not ban" on Archaludon.
Storm Zone for president!
Weather rocks are complete busted this gen. Both rain and sun teams became are so disgustingly powerful you are basically forced to run your own weather seter just to not auto loose. There is absolutely no defensive core that can cover even most popular rain and sun abusers at the same time. And the list of those abusers never ends. Playing weatherless balance is just match up fishing.
Also precedens of baning SIGNATURE moves over mon is pretty solid idea. (And please do not bring Smerge as an argument).
Weather rocks are complete busted this gen. Both rain and sun teams became are so disgustingly powerful you are basically forced to run your own weather seter just to not auto loose. There is absolutely no defensive core that can cover even most popular rain and sun abusers at the same time. And the list of those abusers never ends. Playing weatherless balance is just match up fishing.
Also precedens of baning SIGNATURE moves over mon is pretty solid idea. (And please do not bring Smerge as an argument).
gonna share my opinion on whats broken:
definetely broken: roaring moon
most likely broken: gourging fire, archaludon, volcarona, kingambit, kyurem
maybe broken: ogerpon wellspring, gholdengo, zamazenta
definetely not broken: raging bolt, gliscor
roaring moon: it only has one common tera, yet that set is so good, that it doesnt need another. there is no definite defensive counterplay and usually one loses 1-2 mons to this thing. It can customize its set to be better against offense or defense.
gourging fire: its much better than walking wake, cause unlike the former, its not momentum fodder for chilly reception. its not in the same tier as roaring moon as it needs more support, but its still a bit too much imo.
archaludon: its like gf made the perfect mon for rain. it resists grass and electric and can hit hard on both physical and special side with bodypress, electroshot draco metoer and flash cannon. stamina can make it hard to revenge for plenty of teams. like gourging it needs weather support, which is why i put it below roaring moon.
volcarona: its so easy to get out of control if it has the rigth tera + tera blast. without tera blast it would be manageble and a nice addition to the tier though. either it or tera blast should go.
kingambit: it does what it always does. people have adapted to it by running idpress skarm/corv or zenta or bulk up tusk. however kingambit can readapt by running tera ghost for example. unlike raging bolt its priority also has no immunity.
kyurem: it has multiple sets with limited and diffrent counterplay (specs; dd loaded dice; mixed loaded dice; sub+protect+dd+leftovers). despite its bad defensive typing, it has quite nice bulk. all those sets together put too much pressure on the builder
ogerpon: ivy cudgel hits superhard and makes no contact. good defensive gras or tera types are rare. it has tons of utilit options.
gholdengo: it has been slightly power crept out of his top spot. but i can see it becoming a problem again if some bans occur.
zamazenta: i thought it was healthy, but recently a roar set appeared and now i changed my mind, since counterplay like bulk up tusk, idpress skarm or idpress garganacl arent safe counterplay anymore and i dont want to be forced to run dragapult or a special scarfer on any balance team to safely counter this mon.
raging bolt: a healthy version of kingambit. Unlike the former, its priority has a immunity, so one can alwas revenge it with a fast ground, which we have plenty.
gliscor: it can be annoying, but weavile is back and meowscarada getting triple axel also helps a lot against it. While its bulk its good, its nothing extraordinary in this meta
definetely broken: roaring moon
most likely broken: gourging fire, archaludon, volcarona, kingambit, kyurem
maybe broken: ogerpon wellspring, gholdengo, zamazenta
definetely not broken: raging bolt, gliscor
roaring moon: it only has one common tera, yet that set is so good, that it doesnt need another. there is no definite defensive counterplay and usually one loses 1-2 mons to this thing. It can customize its set to be better against offense or defense.
gourging fire: its much better than walking wake, cause unlike the former, its not momentum fodder for chilly reception. its not in the same tier as roaring moon as it needs more support, but its still a bit too much imo.
archaludon: its like gf made the perfect mon for rain. it resists grass and electric and can hit hard on both physical and special side with bodypress, electroshot draco metoer and flash cannon. stamina can make it hard to revenge for plenty of teams. like gourging it needs weather support, which is why i put it below roaring moon.
volcarona: its so easy to get out of control if it has the rigth tera + tera blast. without tera blast it would be manageble and a nice addition to the tier though. either it or tera blast should go.
kingambit: it does what it always does. people have adapted to it by running idpress skarm/corv or zenta or bulk up tusk. however kingambit can readapt by running tera ghost for example. unlike raging bolt its priority also has no immunity.
kyurem: it has multiple sets with limited and diffrent counterplay (specs; dd loaded dice; mixed loaded dice; sub+protect+dd+leftovers). despite its bad defensive typing, it has quite nice bulk. all those sets together put too much pressure on the builder
ogerpon: ivy cudgel hits superhard and makes no contact. good defensive gras or tera types are rare. it has tons of utilit options.
gholdengo: it has been slightly power crept out of his top spot. but i can see it becoming a problem again if some bans occur.
zamazenta: i thought it was healthy, but recently a roar set appeared and now i changed my mind, since counterplay like bulk up tusk, idpress skarm or idpress garganacl arent safe counterplay anymore and i dont want to be forced to run dragapult or a special scarfer on any balance team to safely counter this mon.
raging bolt: a healthy version of kingambit. Unlike the former, its priority has a immunity, so one can alwas revenge it with a fast ground, which we have plenty.
gliscor: it can be annoying, but weavile is back and meowscarada getting triple axel also helps a lot against it. While its bulk its good, its nothing extraordinary in this meta
aside from you implying that garganacl is broken (which it isn't) and that palafin would be balanced without jet punch (which it wouldn't), which are enough on their own to dismiss your entire argument, i've got some gripes with your post:
- your claim that the meta needs to settle before we act on stuff quickly is ludicrous because we did let the meta settle instead of acting on stuff quickly this time. don't be disingenuous about what you want. you don't want the council to act more slowly, you want them to not act at all, but only on the things you personally like
- the people supporting tiering action are not a "small vocal minority". every action taken by the council except for three of them has been supported by the community at large in a survey beforehand. the three actions that weren't are the volc qb, the bloodmoon suspect, and the arch suspect, and the latter two are still justified thanks to timing—both times, the meta progressed to a point where they were unbearably broken right after the survey happened. but outside of the volc qb, every single tiering action has enjoyed the support of the community—yes, even the sleep ban, 3.7 is well within the appropriate threshold to ban them. and there is no "non-vocal part of the playerbase that stays silent and lets the circle jerk run the tier". you're not part of some mystical magical silent majority whose members are somehow unable to make a free account on a public forum to voice their opinion. you yourself have only voted in a handful of suspects this gen despite obviously being talented enough to get reqs consistently, so if there is a problem with people not being represented or whatever, you're actively part of it
- your poll idea is silly. you worded the questions of it to try and force the outcome you want instead of making them neutrally worded
- even if banning electro shot or damp rock were an option in the future, that's not what's on the table right now. you might not agree with the decision to suspect arch over electro shot and/or damp rock, but it's clear that something is making things very unhealthy here and it involves archaludon. our best option is to get it out of the meta and then have the discussion, not keeping it in the meta and having a policy discussion while ou burns around us. it's the same reason i folded so quickly on the terapagos issue—better to get the broken thing out of the tier and then discuss what makes it that way
- no one "made up an excuse" to ban sleep. cartridge accuracy is literally rule one of modern tiering policy
- don't you dare tell me how to react or not react
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I'd like to give thanks and another shout-out to this user and this set, for shooting me to the 1600's.With the Archaludon vote coming up, wanted to drop a really heat set I've seen success with and tried building around for OST, AV Iron Hands:
Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 12 HP / 152 Atk / 248 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Wild Charge
- Heavy Slam / Rock Slide
This idea came into mind while theorycrafting a good check to Archaludon and Raging Bolt, both being very similar in the way that they Spam strong electric and Dragon moves. Realistically I needed a mon that didn't need to predict in the face of these guys, I ended up finding this guy, who resists both their Electric moves, and has incredible bulk when combined with AV:
The damage calcs were too good to ignore as well:
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 127-150 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 189-223 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 69-81 (15.2 - 17.9%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 207-244 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
112 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 188-224 (50.5 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. +1 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 126-150 (33.8 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
112 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. +2 204 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 96-114 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(Drain Punch 3hko's from full)
112 Atk Iron Hands Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Archaludon: 202-238 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 Atk Iron Hands Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +1 204 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Archaludon: 136-160 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
112 Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 166-196 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
112 Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 124-147 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
While the offensive calcs aren't as great, it's a terrific way to soften up these guys at the very least for revenge killers in the back, which can usually be extremely hard to do if they expend their Tera.
After some extra research, I ended up figuring that this guy bodies rain, like super hard. Incredible matchup into the core 4 of Pelipper/Barraskewda/Archaludon/Iron Treads, as well as beating the aforementioned Raging Bolt as well as Kingambit, Tornadus-T, Zapdos and Primarina (EV's creep no speed Prim), which are commonly on these structures. Tera Grass allows us to defensively Tera against Barraskewda, as well as keeping our Electric resistance and giving us a ground resistance instead of a weakness.
Now while I personally prefer Heavy Slam, since it beats IVal as well, Rock Slide is also a good option to body Volcarona.
I personally built this alongside Grassy Terrain support as well as Wish support from Alomomola, and they formed a really fun core that had a super good matchup into rain.
Heat is still possible in this meta, y'all just have to be creative :)
Literally replaced one mon, that's all it took. Also thanks to the Discord for convincing me that it's animal abuse to send your Rillaboom into battle without Choice Band, at least now.
EDIT: That mon was AV Hoodra, another fine mon, who I feel will exceed when Arch is gone as a perfectly workable Steel/Dragon. It gets Knock Off!
EDIT: That mon was AV Hoodra, another fine mon, who I feel will exceed when Arch is gone as a perfectly workable Steel/Dragon. It gets Knock Off!
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Except that ground and fighting are more common as physical moves. We are talking about a 130 base defense mon with Stamina. Focus Miss is also unreliable. Earth Power is fairly common, though. So that is a weakness. But we are still taking about far more strengths than weaknesses here.
I didn't say it automatically makes up for bad defense. I said when you have a good typing and HP.
Tusk is a great mon, but fighting/ground is pretty mid defensively as a typing. IMO. this is what makes it balanced. And many of them are run more offensive or at least with set up potential with Bulk Up and Rapid Spin. You can't run Bulk Up on Assault Vest. This might hit on your point that Arch can set up without using status moves, which is true.
Yes. I'm very opposed.
Arch is the main problem with rain, which was not broken before Arch. Nerfing rain is barking up the wrong tree. Nerfing Electroshot when we didn't ban, say, Shed Tail until we knew it was also broken on slower mons like Orthworm sets precedent for banning the mon. This is also why Annihilape was banned and Primeape wasn't with the whole Rage Fist thing, even though Rage Fist is obviously broken as heck.
You brought up one example of Last Respects, as opposed to all the instances that have gone the other way, but even that was banned partly because everyone knew it would be broken on Basc.
Blindly? Root issues? No survey should be so blatantly biased when proposing a question. This phrasing is straight trash.
I know you think that the problem is something else, but this mon is broken. 8 turns of rain was not a problem before Arch. Rain teams were not winning over 80% of their games in tournaments and otherwise before Arch came along to counter nearly all of the rain counters. Stop.
Yes. It should be. The defensive typing is strong, the stats are amazing, the movepool is amazing, and Stamina is one of the strongest abilities. Even without rain, there could be teams built around Arch to make it oppressive.
Furthermore, Arch doesn't need 8 turns of rain to set up. 5 turns would be more than enough for Electroshot cheese. It arguably only needs one or two turns of special attack boost to be a major problem. Even a Power Herb set could potentially get you one for free along with whatever Stamina Boosts you get. And you may even be able to grab one more one of the switches this mon forces. You don't need 8 turns of rain for any of that.
Even though I disagree with it, you might be able to argue that weather rocks make other aspects of weather teams broken. But not Arch. That's always been a ludicrous argument. Electroshot sets up much faster than 8 turns and you don't lose boosts outside of rain.
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