Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I have the feeling we jump from ban to ban because of the problem that is Tera. Arch was a huge problem because even revenge kill it was difficult because it could tera fairy; Raging bolt is difficult to deal because it can tera fairy/flying to avoid being revenge by tusk or lando and then fire back with draco; kingambit is a pain because it can tera whatever and hit back counters, or go tera dark for insane damage. Dont make me start with tera blast giving coverage to mons that were designed to not have those moves.
We are still looking at the symptoms instead of the main problem.
Sadly, i think with how close was kyurem suspect, which should be an obvious ban because only glowking checks the specs set, its clear that tera suspect wont end in a ban because there is more "deal with it" mentality than people looking for an actually healthy meta without a lot of 50/50 situations or ban upon ban.
 
I have the feeling we jump from ban to ban because of the problem that is Tera. Arch was a huge problem because even revenge kill it was difficult because it could tera fairy; Raging bolt is difficult to deal because it can tera fairy/flying to avoid being revenge by tusk or lando and then fire back with draco; kingambit is a pain because it can tera whatever and hit back counters, or go tera dark for insane damage. Dont make me start with tera blast giving coverage to mons that were designed to not have those moves.
We are still looking at the symptoms instead of the main problem.
Sadly, i think with how close was kyurem suspect, which should be an obvious ban because only glowking checks the specs set, its clear that tera suspect wont end in a ban because there is more "deal with it" mentality than people looking for an actually healthy meta without a lot of 50/50 situations or ban upon ban.
Most of these bans aren't even due to tera. Tera, while being a "rich get richer" type of mechanic, does not break the vast majority of mons that got banned this generation. Tera was not responsible for the ban of Annihilape, Archaludon, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Magearna, Palafin, Sneasler, Bloodmoon, Urshifu, Zamazenta-C, shed tail, or last respects. This leaves us with Espathra, Regieleki, Ogerpon-Hearthflame (which is debatably still broken in a teraless metagame because you can't tera dragon to beat it and it has mold breaker to cheese unawares and flash fire Heatran), and Terapagos.

I'm not sure you would want Espathra in the metagame regardless, yes it's not broken in a tera metagame, but it's also just annoying cheese, the same way that psyspam can be frustrating to play against but isn't necessarily good. Regieleki is for sure not broken without tera and could be nice against booster mons, so I'll give that one a pass. Terapagos is the one I'd most like back if tera gets banned because it's a decent rapid spinner and has great utility, but that's really the only mon. Volcarona did get previously banned due to tera, so there is that too, but it doesn't feel overwhelming to me in my opinion.

All those mons I mentioned earlier would still probably be broken in a teraless metagame anyways. Annihilape would obliterate defensive teams, Archaludon doesn't even need tera, yes you can switch it in and tera to avoid damage, but even without tera you aren't killing it; it's getting its 2 kills as is. Chien-Pao would probably force Dondozo on most balance teams, Chi-Yu (lol), Flutter Mane (lol), Iron Bundle is hard to switch into for how fast it is, Magearna already has a phenomenal typing and can stored power cheese a lot of mons, Palafin would probably be too strong, Sneasler would still cheese regardless of tera to be honest (and to be fair, grass spam structures are very strong right now, they don't need more buffs), Bloodmoon is still going to be hard to kill while dealing copious amounts of damage, and Urshifu, maybe it isn't that broken, but tera isn't what pushes it over the edge, swords dance does.

Overall, "how many more mons need to be banned before people find out tera is the issue" is not a valid argument to me because only a couple of mons actually got banned due to tera, the tier would still need bans without tera, and some mons become even stronger without tera, probably to the point of overpowered. If a tera ban wants to be considered, it should be in my opinion only because of the variance and prediction factor, which I personally find manageable, at least right now.
 
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The amount of times I have won games on various accounts (registered and unregistered) that I didn't deserve to win, not for hax, but simply for having Kingambit on the team, is likely way more than I would care to admit. I don't feel that way about most of the other mons in gen 9 that aren't already banned, save for maybe Roaring Moon, who wins with a single DD at even the slightest opening. And I say this in a tier where people are used to playing around Kingambit because you have to. You need to have answers for it. You have to have answers for it.

Comparing this to something like Raging Bolt, which fits on so many teams, but almost never steals games I didn't deserve to win because I was otherwise outplayed. Bolt does sometimes force some scary 50/50s. Namely threatening to Draco on the Great Tusk or other ground type switch in or when they get too cute trying to Knock Off or Rapid Spin or whatever in your face on the predicted switch instead of ground STAB. But if you get a prediction right, don't you deserve to be rewarded for that? That's called playing well.

Where Kingambit differs is you can specifically not play well and the thing can still win you the game with its bulk and the Supreme Overlord boost. It's one thing to plan ahead, appropriately KO or sufficiently chip the checks and counters, and set yourself up for a Sucker Punch or Thunderclap end game. That's playing good and strategically. You could do the same thing with Rillaboom or E-nite. It's quite another to fail to do that and still somehow cheese a victory with the King's 50/50s.

And the strangest thing is that I'm so used to facing Gambit, I don't even feel like it's that cheap when it is on the opposing side. I don't feel like I lose to it that much. Perhaps it is because I always have counters to it on my teams. But as soon as I use it, I cannot shake the feeling that it is one of the cheapest mons I have ever seen. I start cheesing out games I had no business winning without hax.
 
If a tera ban wants to be considered, it should be in my opinion only because of the variance and prediction factor, which I personally find manageable, at least right now.
That’s the main argument though.. is it not? Tera just introduces stupid turns and forces unnecessary scouting. Nothing is truly a hard check/counter in a match pre-Tera. You can’t count on Great Tusk to check Bolt / Kingambit until you bait a Tera. Not sure why or how people thinks this aspect of Tera improves the quality of gameplay.
 
Okay, so I've been messing around with a few mons and I've got some thoughts about them.
1. Htimontop and Hitmonchan are, alright? Like they can usually get a rapid spin off, which is the main reason why I chose them, so I guess they did there job, but they felt like they didn't do a lot more than that most of the time. Sometimes however, they did do a lot more by threatening something with a ko, like a gliscor with an ice move. It felt like they didn't have enough power or bulk to pull it off. This is especially bad for hitmontop because you need to run technician to boost its power so you can't run intimidate, which would be too detrimental. Didn't try hitmonlee because it can't boost its attack with an ability.
2. Scarf chomp is, meh. Like you can outspeed a lot of mons but you don't have enough power. Sadly I gotta say, chomp isn't good in this meta.
3. Tinkaton is a great mon to counter moon and can give a lot of utility while continuing to check mons. Definetely should be considered for a team, I ran an air balloon set with could counter a lot of mons.
4. Dondozo with order up is kinda great. It helps it a lot against the dragons of the tier because now you can threaten them super effectively. Water+dragon is a great type combo as it is only resisted by primarina in OU. It can work well in battles, so it could work well.
5. I tried tailwind gliscor, and it was good. If you had something that was threatening like a moon that you could wall temporarily with gliscor, you can get off a tailwind, switch to a mon that can wall that one move but is afraid of coverage, and revenge kill the mon. It means that you don't need to invest in speed at all, as tailwind means you outspeed everything, meaning you can invest in bulk, which has saved me once.
 
That’s the main argument though.. is it not? Tera just introduces stupid turns and forces unnecessary scouting. Nothing is truly a hard check/counter in a match pre-Tera.
scouting is never unnecessary, people are just lazy
You can’t count on Great Tusk to check Bolt / Kingambit until you bait a Tera. Not sure why or how people thinks this aspect of Tera improves the quality of gameplay.
you can't even count on tusk to check bolt after you bait a tera if bolt decides to run air balloon, or if bolt is ev'd right and tusk isn't. it's almost as if raging bolt is problematic outside of tera, just like almost everything that's been banned this gen. the mechanic isn't the problem here
 
That’s the main argument though.. is it not? Tera just introduces stupid turns and forces unnecessary scouting. Nothing is truly a hard check/counter in a match pre-Tera. You can’t count on Great Tusk to check Bolt / Kingambit until you bait a Tera. Not sure why or how people thinks this aspect of Tera improves the quality of gameplay.
I was replying to the part where the guy said "we're going from ban to ban because of tera," which implies that tera is responsible for a lot of the bans when it really isn't.

As far as the issues with how tera forces unnecessary scouting and variance, fair, but it doesn't feel that bad at the moment. A Kingambit more often than not has multiple counters, and while tera can force kills on your side, you have your own tera to not only counteract theirs, but to put on the same pressure. I will say that tera felt a lot worse (to play against) in the early days of SV OU, but I feel like the right bans on the cheese mons like Espathra and the ban of shed tail makes tera a lot more fair in practice. Tera can be one of those things, however, that, on paper, can seem very broken and unfair, but in practice is a lot more manageable.
 
I was replying to the part where the guy said "we're going from ban to ban because of tera," which implies that tera is responsible for a lot of the bans when it really isn't.
I think Tera actually keeps more mons in the tier since Tera is used defensively as well. Without defensive Tera, broken mons are a lot harder to navigate, which would lead to more support for bans. I argue that more top tier mons in the tier is a bad thing. Right now we have a certain mons that are so overwhelmingly good (due to Tera) compared to their peers, that there is less diversity in the metagame overall.

As far as the issues with how tera forces unnecessary scouting and variance, fair, but it doesn't feel that bad at the moment. A Kingambit more often than not has multiple counters, and while tera can force kills on your side, you have your own tera to not only counteract theirs, but to put on the same pressure. I will say that tera felt a lot worse (to play against) in the early days of SV OU, but I feel like the right bans on the cheese mons like Espathra and the ban of shed tail makes tera a lot more fair in practice. Tera can be one of those things, however, that, on paper, can seem very broken and unfair, but in practice is a lot more manageable.
Ehhh. The complaints about Tera today are the same complaints that have existed since day one. Tolerating it doesn't mean enjoyment or that it became healthier.
 
Man I cannot believe quite posiblilly every single fucking pokemon to ever exist is just borken outside of tera and it in no way, shape or form contributes anything to the volatility of the metagame! Pack it up boys we just need to wait 2 weeks for a mon to get somewhat powerful alongside tera (which might aswell not even effect our games!) and rip em out the tier!
 
I think Tera actually keeps more mons in the tier since Tera is used defensively as well. Without defensive Tera, broken mons are a lot harder to navigate, which would lead to more support for bans. I argue that more top tier mons in the tier is a bad thing. Right now we have a certain mons that are so overwhelmingly good (due to Tera) compared to their peers, that there is less diversity in the metagame overall.
i agree that tera is resulting in far fewer bans than would happen in a teraless meta, and therefore, the logical result of a tera ban would be a catastrophically unbalanced tier. but… you think this is a good thing? because you expect the things you consider broken to get more support and be banned more easily? how can you be confident in that? if tera is as blatantly broken as you claim it is, then the vast majority of the community has been tripping over its own feet for the past year and you shouldn't expect that anything will be banned or prioritized correctly
Man I cannot believe quite posiblilly every single fucking pokemon to ever exist is just borken outside of tera and it in no way, shape or form contributes anything to the volatility of the metagame! Pack it up boys we just need to wait 2 weeks for a mon to get somewhat powerful alongside tera (which might aswell not even effect our games!) and rip em out the tier!
maybe our next tiering action should be to unban webster's unabridged dictionary
 
They should give a pokemon Mold Breaker and Toxic. I've become too addicted to Mold Breaker para that I feel positively tingly imagining the sheer satisfaction I'd get from using toxic on Garg or similar.
 
Corrosion Salazzle does that and Randbats players know that it is very, very annoying.
That and tropius are the bane of my fucking existence. Like I got to 1700s in randbats and these two single handedly made me drop 200 elo.
Like I would rather face a zacian in randbats then these two fucking mons.

Although I don't think corrosion does go past ghold because it only ignores steel and poison types and not any abilities.
 

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