Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Here's some more sets that work if you really, desperately need a hard counter to Marshadow.

Underrated (Pidgeot-Mega) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Feather Dance

Overkill (Talonflame) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Quick Attack
- Taunt

Fakeu Lele (Bruxish) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psychic Fangs
- Aqua Tail
- Ice Fang
- Crunch
These sets and mons really aren't that viable in the current meta, at all, and there are better counters to marshadow which also perform other jobs, for example also using marshadow to counter marshadow by winning speed ties every time, or the tech scarf marshadow.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
These sets and mons really aren't that viable in the current meta, at all, and there are better counters to marshadow which also perform other jobs, for example also using marshadow to counter marshadow by winning speed ties every time, or the tech scarf marshadow.
Nitpick, but it's physically impossible for Marshadow to counter Marshadow, because whenever a Marshadow beats a Marshadow a Marshadow also loses to a Marshadow. Sure, you can tech your Marshadow to perform its best in the mirror match, but so can your opponent. You can't win speed ties every time (a phrasing that makes no sense) if you and your opponent have the exact same speed. And if you want to make a case for ScarfShadow, I think there needs to be more than it beats bulky Marshadow.
 
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Eve

formerly Ezaphs
is a Forum Moderator
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Here's some more sets that work if you really, desperately need a hard counter to Marshadow.

Underrated (Pidgeot-Mega) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Feather Dance

Overkill (Talonflame) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Quick Attack
- Taunt

Fakeu Lele (Bruxish) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psychic Fangs
- Aqua Tail
- Ice Fang
- Crunch
That Mega Pidgeot seems fairly solid as a Marshadow counter, only losing to Jolly Fightinium Z. Not even Rock Tomb is an OHKO. However, it seems like it could lose a lot of matchups versus bulky Pokemon overall.
Talonflame is something I haven't considered! No Stealth Rocks means it always gets that free Z Brave Bird, which is pretty cool. Give it some support for Rock types and Tapu Koko, and I reckon it could be decent.
That Bruxish set simply isn't a counter though. Psychic fangs only has a 37.5% chance to OHKO no bulk Marshadow, while Marshadow always OHKOs back. Not even Adamant guarantees the OHKO. Because of this, maybe Strong Jaw is a better option?

Bruxish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 152 Def / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Ice Fang

Enough Physical bulk to always live a Shadow Sneak from Adamant Marsh. 270 speed with Scarf is solid, although you could move some points from Attack into Speed if you want, seeing as even 0 Atk Jolly Bruxish knocks out Marshadow with a Strong Jaw Psychic Fangs.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Nitpick, but it's physically impossible for Marshadow to counter Marshadow, because whenever a Marshadow beats a Marshadow a Marshadow also loses to a Marshadow. Sure, you can tech your Marshadow to perform its best in the mirror match, but so can your opponent. You can't win speed ties every time (a phrasing that makes no sense) if you and your opponent have the exact same speed. And if you want to make a case for ScarfShadow, I think there needs to be more than it beats bulky Marshadow.
I was joking btw
 
Here's some more sets that work if you really, desperately need a hard counter to Marshadow.

Underrated (Pidgeot-Mega) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Feather Dance

Overkill (Talonflame) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Quick Attack
- Taunt

Fakeu Lele (Bruxish) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psychic Fangs
- Aqua Tail
- Ice Fang
- Crunch
I'm a big fan of Talonflame, but not that set. Here's a "good" Talonflame set:

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 164 HP / 164 Atk / 132 Def / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance

One great thing about this set is its ability to beat Charizard X. The given bulk eats an Outrage, so with Gale Wings and the given speed investment, SD->Supersonic Skystrike gets it every time! It can also stall out Mega Metagross and non-scarf Kyurem nicely with WoW+Roost. Since other people are taking this time to post some underrated sets, I think I'll post some sets for some megas:


Aggron-Mega @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 40 Def
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Head Smash
- Curse
- Rest
Aggronite's just been released, and I'm loving it! Pretty standard in the first 2 slots, but 40 defense and Curse+Rest allows Aggron to wall Donphan, Golem and SD Mawile.


Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpA
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Blast Burn
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Flame Charge
Obese Charizard Y is a great Marshadow lure as it takes even a max attack Rock Tomb (go away, bad banded Marshadows). Hidden Power Electric is nice for countering Mega Gyarados, and Flame Charge is used to make up for the lack of speed against Mimikyu, as well to punish Substitute users.


Gallade-Mega @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 100 HP / 120 Atk / 96 Def / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Rock Tomb
- Will-O-Wisp
Mega Gallade is really underappreciated. This set counters Charizard (both), Kyurem-B, Mega Gyarados, Donphan and Golem among others. Although it does great against top tier threats, it struggles against non-meta pokemon.
 
Since this suspect is causing so much vitriol and angry in-fighting among the community, I'm not gonna talk about it. Instead, how about some more underrated sets?

View attachment 85758
Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hyper Beam
- Psychic/Hyper Voice
- Taunt

A lot of people are quick to dismiss Mega Gardevoir as an inferior Tapu Lele. And while that may be true, Gardevoir does have come cool things that you can't say the same for the Psychic Tapu. For one thing, it has a very cool niche of being the strongest Pixilate Hyper Beam user aside from Specs Sylveon (Which only out-powers it by a teensy bit, and besides, it's freaking Sylveon, who even uses this thing?) Pixilate Hyper Beam is an immense nuke, being one of the strongest attacks from a Mega Evolution, only beaten by Mega Charizard Y's Sun-boosted Blast Burn (at least in this tier) Hyper Beam is harder to wall, too, only having one solid resist (name a good Poison type in 1v1), as well as being able to outright OHKO many powerful Pokemon, including both S tier titans. Gardevoir also has very handy speed tier, allowing it to actually be a check for all Kyurem-B sets except for Scarf. Gardy may have good special defense, but what about that crappy physical defense? Well, that's where Will-O-Wisp comes in. With Will-O, you can cripple a lot of physical attack-oriented Pokemon, making their normally powerful blows not so scary, allowing you buy time to 2HKO them with one of your STABs. Speaking of cock-blocking physical attackers...

View attachment 85759
Arcanine @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat/Wild Charge/Substitute/Extreme Speed

This pupper needs more use, seriously. With Intimidate, Morning Sun, good all-around bulk and Will-O-Wisp, Arcanine can cripple just about any physical attacker. Now, you're probably wondering "Why not a Z-Charm set?" That does sound like a good idea on paper, but there's a major flaw: Morning Sun and Charm are incompatible with one another. Despite this, Rocky Helmet still eats physical hits for days, as well as laughing in the face of any Kyurem-Black set not running Earth Power. tl;dr Arcanine is a very good boy, and using him will make you do a smile.
Arcanine (M) @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage/Wild Charge

Ooh some Arcanine love! The only things I would suggest is removing Close Combat as it isn't going to help a lot with its effects which kinda hinders Arcanine's ability to tank hits and finish off and will result in the opposite. Also, Espeed + Sub as it doesn't help Arcanine do its job effectively either.

I ran Z-Outrage and it actually helps a lot to take down threats such as both Charizard Megas and Kyurem-B. Investment with 84 Sp. Def helps Arcanine live a Fire Blast from Charizard-Y most of the time and an Earth Power from Kyurem-B. You could also run Z-Wild Charge too to take down bulky Primarina, but I preferably enjoy Z-Outrage. It's Sp. Def though is quite unlikeable especially with offensive z-gem users like the Tapus running around, but it's a good interesting little gem! Also, rocky helmet might not be a good choice for 1v1 since you'll see a lot of offensive mons + stall mons.
 
First of all, I apologize in advance if I sound angry or upset in this post. I'm just really, really passionate about this topic of discussion.

Marshadow is almost certainly gonna be the next suspect after Deoxys-Defense. That's a given. The question for many is: Where do we go from there? What else should we test after this big issue is addressed?

Well, I think this is the ripe opportunity to finally get rid of an over-centralizing tumor. Unlike Marshadow, who has only been around for a little under a month, this guy has been a presence practically since the beginning of 1v1. It has completely shaped and rended the meta around it, even with the introduction of such incredibly powerful fairy types this generation like the Tapus and Magearna.

image.jpg

I do believe that it is time to finally ban Kyurem-Black.

To truly understand why this behemoth is so broken, I feel like I should first analyze the other big S rank threat.

image.jpg

Mega Gyarados is freaking strong. There is no denying that. Pre-mega, it has Intimidate to cripple physical attackers, and with Mold Breaker, it automatically invalidates Sturdy users. It has access to a very nice Dark/Water dual STAB, great bulk, and Dragon Dance, along with strong coverage options in the form of Earthquake and Outrage. It can even run Taunt to wall-break, as well as Substitute for extra set-up opportunities.

But you already know this. So why am I repeating what everyone already knows?

Well, here's what separates Gyarados from Kyurem. There are things that can check it consistently. Tapu Koko, for example, completely wipes the floor with it. Fairy types in general can do a number on it. I've found Mega Gardevoir to be a very solid answer to it, as it can Taunt it to prevent Dragon Dance + Sub, Will-O-Wisp and burn it... Actually, it doesn't even need to do that, seeing as it just obliterates even regular Gyarados with Pixilate Hyper Beam. Bulky Grass Pokemon like Mega Venusaur can put it to sleep and slowly chip away at it's health with Leech Seed + Giga Drain while healing up themselves. There are also some other things I'm sure I forgot about. My point is that Mega Gyarados, while super powerful and definitely still a top-tier, is far from invincible. It can be checked consistently and reliably by certain Pokemon. It can even be argued that it's actually healthy for the meta, seeing as it keeps all those nasty Sturdy users in check.

And there is where the problem lies with Kyurem-Black. Kyurem has so many strong attacking options and excellent stats, as well as the ability to hold an item, unlike Megados. This means that it can run a set to circumvent each and every one of it's checks. Take Scarf, for instance. While it has risen in popularity recently over Icium Z, it's purpose remains the same: To lure and obliterate Icium Z checks. To give you an idea of how powerful and versatile it is, I'm going to go through a list of things that have been recommended to me or that I have used at some point to attempt to stop this monster.

Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini resists Kyurem's Ice STAB and is immune to Outrage, while being able to hit it back with Moonblast. Sure, Fusion Bolt is a thing, but it is possible to run EVs to survive that attack while still being able to maximize offensive potential. ...Surprise! Turns out it's actually banded! No, wait, it's Gigavolt Havoc! Welp, there goes that plan.

Arcanine: Now this seems like a solid answer to the Yin Yang Annihilator. Intimidate with Will-O-Wisp means you won't be taking anything from it's main physical assaults. In turn, you can slowly chip it down with a combination of Flare Blitz and burn damage. Haha! Nope! Just kidding! Turns out, it's a mixed/special set with Earth Power! You're still two-shotted by that attack at most, even with Special Defense investment. And if it's Specs, you will die easily. Back to the drawing board!

Mega Scizor: Ok, this HAS to be the definitive Kyurem-Black counter. It resists both of it's STABs, and it's high Defense means Fusion Bolt won't be doing much. It has Roost to heal off damage, and even with minimal investment, it's trademark Bullet Punch can still just about 2HKO. Well, guess what? HIDDEN POWER FIRE!!! While a fairly rare choice, it is possible, and it will often be enough to fell Scizor. I mean, sure, you could try to run Special Defense investment to counter-act this, but let's be real for a moment. If you have to run something as retarded as specially defensive Mega Scizor just to beat ONE Pokemon, you know we got a problem.

The only real hard-counter I can think of is Magearna. If there is ANYTHING else, please tell me so, and I will add it. But yeah. Two "counters", neither of which are used a ton, from what I've seen on the ladder.

I don't know how to end this other than by saying this: Kyurem-Black is far too good for this tier, and it's finally time we got rid of this menace once and for all.
 
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First of all, I apologize in advance if I sound angry or upset in this post. I'm just really, really passionate about this topic of discussion.

Marshadow is almost certainly gonna be the next suspect after Deoxys-Defense. That's a given. The question for many is: Where do we go from there? What else should we test after this big issue is addressed?

Well, I think this is the ripe opportunity to finally get rid of an over-centralizing tumor. Unlike Marshadow, who has only been around for a little under a month, this guy has been a presence practically since the beginning of 1v1. It has completely shaped and rended the meta around it, even with the introduction of such incredibly powerful fairy types this generation like the Tapus and Magearna.

View attachment 85852
I do believe that it is time to finally ban Kyurem-Black.

To truly understand why this behemoth is so broken, I feel like I should first analyze the other big S rank threat.

View attachment 85853
Mega Gyarados is freaking strong. There is no denying that. Pre-mega, it has Intimidate to cripple physical attackers, and with Mold Breaker, it automatically invalidates Sturdy users. It has access to a very nice Dark/Water dual STAB, great bulk, and Dragon Dance, along with strong coverage options in the form of Earthquake and Outrage. It can even run Taunt to wall-break, as well as Substitute for extra set-up opportunities.

But you already know this. So why am I repeating what everyone already knows?

Well, here's what separates Gyarados from Kyurem. There are things that can check it consistently. Tapu Koko, for example, completely wipes the floor with it. Fairy types in general can do a number on it. I've found Mega Gardevoir to be a very solid answer to it, as it can Taunt it to prevent Dragon Dance + Sub, Will-O-Wisp and burn it... Actually, it doesn't even need to do that, seeing as it just obliterates even regular Gyarados with Pixilate Hyper Beam. Bulky Grass Pokemon like Mega Venusaur can put it to sleep and slowly chip away at it's health with Leech Seed + Giga Drain while healing up themselves. There are also some other things I'm sure I forgot about. My point is that Mega Gyarados, while super powerful and definitely still a top-tier, is far from invincible. It can be checked consistently and reliably by certain Pokemon. It can even be argued that it's actually healthy for the meta, seeing as it keeps all those nasty Sturdy users in check.

And there is where the problem lies with Kyurem-Black. Kyurem has so many strong attacking options and excellent stats, as well as the ability to hold an item, unlike Megados. This means that it can run a set to circumvent each and every one of it's checks. Take Scarf, for instance. While it has risen in popularity recently over Icium Z, it's purpose remains the same: To lure and obliterate Icium Z checks. To give you an idea of how powerful and versatile it is, I'm going to go through a list of things that have been recommended to me or that I have used at some point to attempt to stop this monster.

Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini resists Kyurem's Ice STAB and is immune to Outrage, while being able to hit it back with Moonblast. Sure, Fusion Bolt is a thing, but it is possible to run EVs to survive that attack while still being able to maximize offensive potential. ...Surprise! Turns out it's actually banded! No, wait, it's Gigavolt Havoc! Welp, there goes that plan.

Arcanine: Now this seems like a solid answer to the Yin Yang Annihilator. Intimidate with Will-O-Wisp means you won't be taking anything from it's main physical assaults. In turn, you can slowly chip it down with a combination of Flare Blitz and burn damage. Haha! Nope! Just kidding! Turns out, it's a mixed/special set with Earth Power! You're still two-shotted by that attack at most, even with Special Defense investment. And if it's Specs, you will die easily. Back to the drawing board!

Mega Scizor: Ok, this HAS to be the definitive Kyurem-Black counter. It resists both of it's STABs, and it's high Defense means Fusion Bolt won't be doing much. It has Roost to heal off damage, and even with minimal investment, it's trademark Bullet Punch can still just about 2HKO. Well, guess what? HIDDEN POWER FIRE!!! While a fairly rare choice, it is possible, and it will often be enough to fell Scizor. I mean, sure, you could try to run Special Defense investment to counter-act this, but let's be real for a moment. If you have to run something as retarded as specially defensive Mega Scizor just to beat ONE Pokemon, you know we got a problem.

The only real hard-counter I can think of is Magearna. If there is ANYTHING else, please tell me so, and I will add it. But yeah. Two "counters", neither of which are used a ton, from what I've seen on the ladder.

I don't know how to end this other than by saying this: Kyurem-Black is far too good for this tier, and it's finally time we got rid of this menace once and for all.
Specs Genesect, Mega Tyranitar, Terrakion, Mega Lucario, Fightinium Marshadow and Yache Jumpluff. Also: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
 
First of all, I apologize in advance if I sound angry or upset in this post. I'm just really, really passionate about this topic of discussion.

Marshadow is almost certainly gonna be the next suspect after Deoxys-Defense. That's a given. The question for many is: Where do we go from there? What else should we test after this big issue is addressed?

Well, I think this is the ripe opportunity to finally get rid of an over-centralizing tumor. Unlike Marshadow, who has only been around for a little under a month, this guy has been a presence practically since the beginning of 1v1. It has completely shaped and rended the meta around it, even with the introduction of such incredibly powerful fairy types this generation like the Tapus and Magearna.

View attachment 85852
I do believe that it is time to finally ban Kyurem-Black.

To truly understand why this behemoth is so broken, I feel like I should first analyze the other big S rank threat.

View attachment 85853
Mega Gyarados is freaking strong. There is no denying that. Pre-mega, it has Intimidate to cripple physical attackers, and with Mold Breaker, it automatically invalidates Sturdy users. It has access to a very nice Dark/Water dual STAB, great bulk, and Dragon Dance, along with strong coverage options in the form of Earthquake and Outrage. It can even run Taunt to wall-break, as well as Substitute for extra set-up opportunities.

But you already know this. So why am I repeating what everyone already knows?

Well, here's what separates Gyarados from Kyurem. There are things that can check it consistently. Tapu Koko, for example, completely wipes the floor with it. Fairy types in general can do a number on it. I've found Mega Gardevoir to be a very solid answer to it, as it can Taunt it to prevent Dragon Dance + Sub, Will-O-Wisp and burn it... Actually, it doesn't even need to do that, seeing as it just obliterates even regular Gyarados with Pixilate Hyper Beam. Bulky Grass Pokemon like Mega Venusaur can put it to sleep and slowly chip away at it's health with Leech Seed + Giga Drain while healing up themselves. There are also some other things I'm sure I forgot about. My point is that Mega Gyarados, while super powerful and definitely still a top-tier, is far from invincible. It can be checked consistently and reliably by certain Pokemon. It can even be argued that it's actually healthy for the meta, seeing as it keeps all those nasty Sturdy users in check.

And there is where the problem lies with Kyurem-Black. Kyurem has so many strong attacking options and excellent stats, as well as the ability to hold an item, unlike Megados. This means that it can run a set to circumvent each and every one of it's checks. Take Scarf, for instance. While it has risen in popularity recently over Icium Z, it's purpose remains the same: To lure and obliterate Icium Z checks. To give you an idea of how powerful and versatile it is, I'm going to go through a list of things that have been recommended to me or that I have used at some point to attempt to stop this monster.

Tapu Fini: Tapu Fini resists Kyurem's Ice STAB and is immune to Outrage, while being able to hit it back with Moonblast. Sure, Fusion Bolt is a thing, but it is possible to run EVs to survive that attack while still being able to maximize offensive potential. ...Surprise! Turns out it's actually banded! No, wait, it's Gigavolt Havoc! Welp, there goes that plan.

Arcanine: Now this seems like a solid answer to the Yin Yang Annihilator. Intimidate with Will-O-Wisp means you won't be taking anything from it's main physical assaults. In turn, you can slowly chip it down with a combination of Flare Blitz and burn damage. Haha! Nope! Just kidding! Turns out, it's a mixed/special set with Earth Power! You're still two-shotted by that attack at most, even with Special Defense investment. And if it's Specs, you will die easily. Back to the drawing board!

Mega Scizor: Ok, this HAS to be the definitive Kyurem-Black counter. It resists both of it's STABs, and it's high Defense means Fusion Bolt won't be doing much. It has Roost to heal off damage, and even with minimal investment, it's trademark Bullet Punch can still just about 2HKO. Well, guess what? HIDDEN POWER FIRE!!! While a fairly rare choice, it is possible, and it will often be enough to fell Scizor. I mean, sure, you could try to run Special Defense investment to counter-act this, but let's be real for a moment. If you have to run something as retarded as specially defensive Mega Scizor just to beat ONE Pokemon, you know we got a problem.

The only real hard-counter I can think of is Magearna. If there is ANYTHING else, please tell me so, and I will add it. But yeah. Two "counters", neither of which are used a ton, from what I've seen on the ladder.

I don't know how to end this other than by saying this: Kyurem-Black is far too good for this tier, and it's finally time we got rid of this menace once and for all.
While I completely agree with your point here, I disagree with you in that there is a way to counter KyuB. For example, if I know that the KyuB someone is running is not physical Icium, I know that Tapu Lele is a hard counter. If it is physical Icium, then Scizor wins. It's all a matter of knowing what KyuB is being used.
 
While I completely agree with your point here, I disagree with you in that there is a way to counter KyuB. For example, if I know that the KyuB someone is running is not physical Icium, I know that Tapu Lele is a hard counter. If it is physical Icium, then Scizor wins. It's all a matter of knowing what KyuB is being used.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 272-320 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Scarf V.S. Scarf. It's a roll in Kyurem's favor. Tapu Lele is only a counter less than 25% of the time.

Specs Genesect, Mega Tyranitar, Terrakion, Mega Lucario, Fightinium Marshadow and Yache Jumpluff. Also: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Hmm. Ok, these look like they could work. Let's check each one out.

Genesect: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 284-336 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return, Genesect OHKOes. Kyurem could possibly win if it ran special Scarf with HP Fire, but that's kinda grasping at straws. Still, I could totally see that being a set some people run. So not a guaranteed counter, but still a good option most of the time.

Mega Tyranitar:
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 320-380 (81.8 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 426-504 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

First of all, Kyurem easily outspeeds, and will easily KO with Subzero Slammer + Outrage. Subzero could just straight-up KO if it's a DDance Variant. Second of all, Tyranitar without boosts only KOes back with Stone Edge, which, as we all know, isn't exactly the most accurate move. So, while a good option, not a guaranteed stop.

Terrakion:
Ok, you got me here. Scarf Kyu doesn't KO with any moves, except with Freeze Shock (Scarf Freeze Shock lol), which is a roll. Special Scarf can't KO with Earth Power, either. And if it isn't Scarf, it gets outsped and dies to All-Out-Pummeling/Continental Crush.

Mega Lucario:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario-Mega: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Very good for helping to stop Kyurem, but still not guaranteed.

Marshadow:
Yeah, because this thing's totally not gonna be banned, amirite guys?

Yache Jumpluff:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Nope. Still roll-reliant.

All in all, my opinion has not been changed much. Most of these "checks" can be beaten if you have the right set and get a bit lucky. Not at all guaranteed insta-wins for everything but Terrakion. Kyurem is still way too much for this tier, and really deserves a suspect at least.
 
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 272-320 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Scarf V.S. Scarf. It's a roll in Kyurem's favor. Tapu Lele is only a counter less than 25% of the time.



Hmm. Ok, these look like they could work. Let's check each one out.

Genesect: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 284-336 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return, Genesect OHKOes. Kyurem could possibly win if it ran special Scarf with HP Fire, but that's kinda grasping at straws. Still, I could totally see that being a set some people run. So not a guaranteed counter, but still a good option most of the time.

Mega Tyranitar:
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 320-380 (81.8 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 426-504 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

First of all, Kyurem easily outspeeds, and will easily KO with Subzero Slammer + Outrage. Subzero could just straight-up KO if it's a DDance Variant. Second of all, Tyranitar without boosts only KOes back with Stone Edge, which, as we all know, isn't exactly the most accurate move. So, while a good option, not a guaranteed stop.

Terrakion:
Ok, you got me here. Scarf Kyu doesn't KO with any moves, except with Freeze Shock (Scarf Freeze Shock lol), which is a roll. Special Scarf can't KO with Earth Power, either. And if it isn't Scarf, it gets outsped and dies to All-Out-Pummeling/Continental Crush.

Mega Lucario:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario-Mega: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Very good for helping to stop Kyurem, but still not guaranteed.

Marshadow:
Yeah, because this thing's totally not gonna be banned, amirite guys?

Yache Jumpluff:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Nope. Still roll-reliant.

All in all, my opinion has not been changed much. Most of these "checks" can be beaten if you have the right set and get a bit lucky. Not at all guaranteed insta-wins for everything but Terrakion. Kyurem is still way too much for this tier, and really deserves a suspect at least.
Special Scarf Kyurem makes up honestly less than 1% of all Kyurems. Do you even know what Mega Tyranitar runs? (Rock Tomb or Dragon Dance) *Bulk invested Timid Specs Genesect
 
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 272-320 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Scarf V.S. Scarf. It's a roll in Kyurem's favor. Tapu Lele is only a counter less than 25% of the time.



Hmm. Ok, these look like they could work. Let's check each one out.

Genesect: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 284-336 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return, Genesect OHKOes. Kyurem could possibly win if it ran special Scarf with HP Fire, but that's kinda grasping at straws. Still, I could totally see that being a set some people run. So not a guaranteed counter, but still a good option most of the time.

Mega Tyranitar:
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 320-380 (81.8 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 426-504 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

First of all, Kyurem easily outspeeds, and will easily KO with Subzero Slammer + Outrage. Subzero could just straight-up KO if it's a DDance Variant. Second of all, Tyranitar without boosts only KOes back with Stone Edge, which, as we all know, isn't exactly the most accurate move. So, while a good option, not a guaranteed stop.

Terrakion:
Ok, you got me here. Scarf Kyu doesn't KO with any moves, except with Freeze Shock (Scarf Freeze Shock lol), which is a roll. Special Scarf can't KO with Earth Power, either. And if it isn't Scarf, it gets outsped and dies to All-Out-Pummeling/Continental Crush.

Mega Lucario:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario-Mega: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Very good for helping to stop Kyurem, but still not guaranteed.

Marshadow:
Yeah, because this thing's totally not gonna be banned, amirite guys?

Yache Jumpluff:
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Jumpluff: 320-378 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Nope. Still roll-reliant.

All in all, my opinion has not been changed much. Most of these "checks" can be beaten if you have the right set and get a bit lucky. Not at all guaranteed insta-wins for everything but Terrakion. Kyurem is still way too much for this tier, and really deserves a suspect at least.
If you're going solely off of guaranteed stops, let's ban Jirachi!!! Also, I'd like to see the kyurem set that has Groundium, Electrium, Icium, Scarf, Band, Specs, HP Fire, Ice Beam, Freeze Shock, Earth Power, Outrage, Fusion Bolt, and 5 different EV spreads at the same time. The sole reason that Gyarados is better than KyuB is that it can run ONE set and beat most of the meta.
Also, Scarf Lele is a set that should never be used.
Also also, Kyurem has to be Special Scarf to have a chance against Jumpluff because JUMPLUFF OUTSPEEDS.
 
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Look, I'm not saying that Special Scarf Kyurem is the new meta-changing Pokemon. I'm just saying that, if it wanted to, Kyurem COULD get by it's checks with certain sets. Very little guaranteed 100% stops it all the time. Nonetheless, I think that post was maybe grasping at straws, as I said. If you guys want me to get rid of it, I will.
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
While I completely agree with your point here, I disagree with you in that there is a way to counter KyuB. For example, if I know that the KyuB someone is running is not physical Icium, I know that Tapu Lele is a hard counter. If it is physical Icium, then Scizor wins. It's all a matter of knowing what KyuB is being used.
The reason it's broken is because you don't know what it's running.
Simply saying "you win if you know the set" is not enough to justify its presence.

I'm glad this is finally being brought up
 
The reason it's broken is because you don't know what it's running.
Simply saying "you win if you know the set" is not enough to justify its presence.

I'm glad this is finally being brought up
I completely agree with banning KyuB. But I'm saying it's not the infallible godmon people say it is.
To quote DEG in a hopefully quoteable context, "So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost."
Now, is KyuB broken? Absolutely. Is it impossible to beat, as some seem to have said? No. Because there is a such a degree of unpredictability in Kyurem-Black that that trait is what makes it broken and beatable at the same time. Now, if Species Clause gets removed... Then we have an even larger issue then what we have now, because you can run multiple radically divergent sets and beat just about everything.
But yeah, ban Kyurem-Black.
 
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Here's another thing I would like to add. If/when the Kyoo Bee suspect happens, I propose we do it slightly different this time compared to other suspects. Instead of keeping it legal, I instead propose we ban Kyurem-Black for the duration of the suspect.

Now, why make this special exception? Well, one of the biggest points of defense for the pro-Kyurem side is that without it, the meta would completely go to shit. In a similar fashion to Landorus-Therian in standard OU, people claim Kyurem is the glue that holds the tier together. Meanwhile, anti-Kyurem protestors such as myself claim the opposite, saying it over-centralizes the meta in a very unhealthy way, forcing people to run stupid sets/Pokemon they don't want to run/doesn't fit their team just to beat it. Banning Kyurem-Black for a while would allow both sides to see how the format would change without it's presence, and it would ultimately determine who's right. And sure, while we can host tours where Kyurem-B is on the ban-list (We just did one today), these only provide a brief glimpse at the changes that would be made, and ultimately, it's just not the same as banning Kyurem on the ladder.

take a shot everytime I say "Kyurem", "Black" or "Suspect"
 

wishes

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Yung Dramps – The thing is that having Kyurem-B banned on the ladder would be a double-edged sword. While we do see what the metagame looks like without Kyurem-B, it does not giver users the ability to actually abuse the Pokemon and see what it's like to face, to determine if it is worthy of being banned. I think with a smaller metagame (all OMs), having the Pokemon available to use would make it easier for users to help vote in the suspect. I don't necessarily disagree with a ban / suspect of Kyurem-B, but it's a little tired at this point when it is not being suspected or even brought up for discussion on being suspected in the near future by council. Instead of discussing weird sets or Kyurem-B, why don't we focus on Deoxys-D for the suspect then Kyurem-B afterwards?

So about Deoxys-D. I find that it's got the assets and tools to morph games around itself. Whichever set it runs has the capability to take on nearly anything in the tier. Be it the CounterCoat set, which lets it take on offensive threats; or the Pressure stall set, which takes on defensive threats. Obviously there is counter (heh) play to Deoxys-D, and with Marshadow being a premier offensive threat, sure, Deoxys-D does have some roadblocks. However, I don't think this is enough to really keep Deoxys-D in the tier when it's seriously unhealthy. What are some ways you guys have been dealing with Deoxys-D? From my experience, playing around it correctly with Landorus is pretty cool, as it can force mind games on whether to use Counter or Mirror Coat, as Landorus has both Rock Slide and Earth Power in its arsenal. It's 100% not a guaranteed way to beat Deoxys-D, but in practice it can tiptoe around it and hopefully succeed.

Will be interesting to see how this suspect plays out, though I have a feeling Deoxys-D will be sent back to outer space.
 
Yung Dramps – The thing is that having Kyurem-B banned on the ladder would be a double-edged sword. While we do see what the metagame looks like without Kyurem-B, it does not giver users the ability to actually abuse the Pokemon and see what it's like to face, to determine if it is worthy of being banned. I think with a smaller metagame (all OMs), having the Pokemon available to use would make it easier for users to help vote in the suspect. I don't necessarily disagree with a ban / suspect of Kyurem-B, but it's a little tired at this point when it is not being suspected or even brought up for discussion on being suspected in the near future by council. Instead of discussing weird sets or Kyurem-B, why don't we focus on Deoxys-D for the suspect then Kyurem-B afterwards?

So about Deoxys-D. I find that it's got the assets and tools to morph games around itself. Whichever set it runs has the capability to take on nearly anything in the tier. Be it the CounterCoat set, which lets it take on offensive threats; or the Pressure stall set, which takes on defensive threats. Obviously there is counter (heh) play to Deoxys-D, and with Marshadow being a premier offensive threat, sure, Deoxys-D does have some roadblocks. However, I don't think this is enough to really keep Deoxys-D in the tier when it's seriously unhealthy. What are some ways you guys have been dealing with Deoxys-D? From my experience, playing around it correctly with Landorus is pretty cool, as it can force mind games on whether to use Counter or Mirror Coat, as Landorus has both Rock Slide and Earth Power in its arsenal. It's 100% not a guaranteed way to beat Deoxys-D, but in practice it can tiptoe around it and hopefully succeed.

Will be interesting to see how this suspect plays out, though I have a feeling Deoxys-D will be sent back to outer space.
Honestly, I don't think anyone really cares if Deoxys-D is banned or not. Most consider this a banal suspect. In fact, the reason people are so angry about it is because they feel that we're wasting time suspecting something that's not really broken, when there are far worse things that should be looked at cough cough Marshadow cough. Not saying I agree with this point of view, but it definitely seems to be the majority view-point, judging by the 1v1 room poll and discussion I've seen.

Oh, and also, we've already had plenty of time to abuse Kyurem-Black. Almost everyone has used it at some point and has built a strong opinion on it. Doing a suspect with Kyurem being legal would be redundant, and won't really change people's viewpoints. People who think Kyurem is broken will still think it's broken, and people who say it's balanced will still think it's balanced. The absolute best-case scenario would be to have two seperate ladders: One where Kyurem is legal, and one where it isn't. The council could then decide which of these would be the official suspect ladder.
 

Chloe

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Honestly, I don't think anyone really cares if Deoxys-D is banned or not. Most consider this a banal suspect. In fact, the reason people are so angry about it is because they feel that we're wasting time suspecting something that's not really broken, when there are far worse things that should be looked at cough cough Marshadow cough. Not saying I agree with this point of view, but it definitely seems to be the majority view-point, judging by the 1v1 room poll and discussion I've seen.

Oh, and also, we've already had plenty of time to abuse Kyurem-Black. Almost everyone has used it at some point and has built a strong opinion on it. Doing a suspect with Kyurem being legal would be redundant, and won't really change people's viewpoints. People who think Kyurem is broken will still think it's broken, and people who say it's balanced will still think it's balanced. The absolute best-case scenario would be to have two seperate ladders: One where Kyurem is legal, and one where it isn't. The council could then decide which of these would be the official suspect ladder.
"Most consider this a banal suspect." Where are these people and why aren't they voicing their support as well? Focus on the current suspect at hand, instead of arguing with the decision the leaders have made. You're derailing the thread and preventing potential content-driven discussion.
 
Honestly, I don't think anyone really cares if Deoxys-D is banned or not. Most consider this a banal suspect. In fact, the reason people are so angry about it is because they feel that we're wasting time suspecting something that's not really broken, when there are far worse things that should be looked at cough cough Marshadow cough.
This suspect is a well-deserved one IMO. If it weren't for Counter + Mirror Coat, I would just consider it a worse Mega Slowbro. But because of those two moves, Deoxys suddenly goes from manageable to really, really stupid. You may think it's ok and that a Taunt will solve all your problems, and then Deoxys just Mirror Coats/Counters your main check away. Also, Pressure stall is a load of bull. Glad to see that a stall Pokemon is getting the axe for once.
Lightning-quick backpedal there my man
 
"Most consider this a banal suspect." Where are these people and why aren't they voicing their support as well? Focus on the current suspect at hand, instead of arguing with the decision the leaders have made. You're derailing the thread and preventing potential content-driven discussion.
Ok, it's kind of a boring suspect because you can't even use Deo-D on the ladder because Marshadow is so OP. It doesn't make sense that Gyarados, Marshadow, and Kyurem-Black are all better than Deo-D and not suspected.

Yung Dramps – The thing is that having Kyurem-B banned on the ladder would be a double-edged sword. While we do see what the metagame looks like without Kyurem-B, it does not giver users the ability to actually abuse the Pokemon and see what it's like to face, to determine if it is worthy of being banned. I think with a smaller metagame (all OMs), having the Pokemon available to use would make it easier for users to help vote in the suspect. I don't necessarily disagree with a ban / suspect of Kyurem-B, but it's a little tired at this point when it is not being suspected or even brought up for discussion on being suspected in the near future by council. Instead of discussing weird sets or Kyurem-B, why don't we focus on Deoxys-D for the suspect then Kyurem-B afterwards?
I think anyone voting in a hypothetical Kyurem-Black suspect test will know all about Kyurem-Black. We don't need more information on it, we have like 9 months of games to draw from.


Usually I'd post a team or something, but I posted them all already. Go check them out.

How about this:

Chance of a critical hit: 1/16 = 6.25%
Chance of a critical hit after eight attacks: (15/16)^8= 59.7% 100%-59.7=40.3%
Chance of a critical hit after twelve attacks: (15/16)^12=46.1% 100%-46.1= 53.9%
 
I wanna make something clear. I am actually VERY happy that Deoxys-Defense is being suspected. After all, the less bullshit stall mons that turn 3-turn games into 50-turn crit-fishing simulators, the better. But compared to other things that are just being let loose, Deoxys-Defense is a non-issue. Everyone wanted and still wants a Marshadow suspect, but instead of going for the biggest priority, we instead focus on something that, while still controversial, is not as big of a deal to many.

Also, sorry for de-railing the Deo-D conversation. I don't really think there's much interesting, thoughtful discussion to be had about this Pokemon. But if some of you guys want to talk about it, then fine, go ahead. You can go share and discuss your thoughts on Deoxys, while everyone else viciously argues instead talks about what we think is a very interesting topic, being the questioning of how balanced Kyurem-Black really is in this format.
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
I can see why Yung Dramps says the suspect makes people angry. In fact that point makes a lot of sense, I too think a Kyurem-Black or even Marshadow suspect is more important. But that doesn't take away the fact that we need to focus on the current suspect test.

The way things are going now, nobody really cares about the suspect test going on, which is a huge mistake because you could actually end up with an undesirable meta.

Indeed Kentari you can't effectively use DeoD right now because of Marshadow. But instead of complaining about that let's get on the ladder, get reqs and ban Deoxys-Defense together.
 
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