Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Nalei]

Why Accuracy-Reducing Moves Should Be Banned

​

1. Why we should put off discussion of Deoxys-Defense in order to ban accuracy-reducing moves
If this is going to be a reason that Deoxys-Defense gets banned, then accuracy-reducing moves need to finally be banned. If Aegislash is a winning match-up for Deoxys-Defense because of Mud Slap, Mud Slap must go. The only reason accuracy-reducing moves haven't been banned is because they have been irrelevant, and so have been ignored. Clearly, they are no longer irrelevant and must be banned.

2. Evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing moves are essentially the same in 1v1
In 1v1, there is no real difference between evasion and accuracy, as there is no switching. Evasion moves are already banned, so accuracy-reducing moves should join them.

3. These moves, abilities, and items should be banned

Moves
Flash
Kinesis
Leaf Tornado
Mirror Shot
Mud Bomb
Mud-Slap
Muddy Water
Night Daze
Octazooka
Sand Attack
Smokescreen

Abilities
Sand Veil
Snow Cloak

Items
Brightpowder

3a. A note in the interest of uniformity
Now, I don't really think all of these moves are useful in 1v1. If your Octazooka Sableye is not usable if we decide to ban accuracy-reducing moves, then that's a shame. Only Mud-Slap and Flash are problems in 1v1. I think we should ban all evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing moves in the name of consistency, however.

3b. A note on drawing the line
Looking at the list of every move that increases evasion or reduces accuracy, one might wonder, why ban every move? Why not just ban the problem moves, namely Flash and Mud-Slap and leave Muddy Water for some crazy build in the future. I would argue against this line of thinking because it then becomes difficult to decide where to draw the line at what is too haxy and what is not. Is Muddy Water the line? Is Brightpowder? Is Kinesis? What is the right amount of hax? I would rather avoid having a discussion that will, frankly, be pointless. Who cares if 1v1 bans Octazooka? Just ban everything and be done with it.

4. Conclusion
Accuracy-reducing moves should've been banned from the beginning of 1v1. They have been allowed to remain in 1v1 simply because they have been overlooked. I have always believed that the moment accuracy-reducing moves became relevant in 1v1, they would be judged uncompetitive and swiftly banned. I believe that has happened in Macemaster's post. Mud-Slap has moved from a harmless meme to a detrimental move. I think the subject of accuracy-reducing moves must be addressed before we can appropriately assess how broken Deoxys-Defense is in a meta without accuracy-reducing moves.

Agreed for the most part! Let's ban accuracy reduction moves. However, you forgot one item: Lax Incense. As for drawing the line, I think that we should only ban moves that have a 100% chance to lower accuracy (ie Mud Slap, Kinesis, Flash). Banning moves that have a, say, 30% chance to lower accuracy only restricts teambuilding. I do get Octazooka and Leaf Tornado, though as they're strictly outclassed except in the manner of having a 50% chance to lower accuracy. But Muddy Water, Night Daze and Mud Bomb? No. The odds of them actually landing, lowering accuracy, and then causing the opponent to miss is literally the same chance as landing a critical hit.

In regards to the notion that Aegislash is a Deoxys-Defense counter:
(Z-Cosmic Power)
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Defense: 56-68 (18.4 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO

It takes just a pinch of investment to make this unlikely 2hko turn into a guaranteed 3hko. Physically offensive Aegislash may have a chance, but then that risks falling to the popular Iron Defense set, while Metal Sound just makes it into yet another Taunt/No Taunt 50/50.

An important thing people need to keep in mind is that Deoxys has a severe advantage against slower offensive mons, being able to take the win back even after choosing poorly at team preview with similar 50/50's that it uses to beat Gyarados, Buzzwole, Heracross, and more.

Non-Mud Slap Deoxys-D loses to Aegislash because crits exist.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Deoxys-Defense on a critical hit: 288-342 (94.7 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Aegislash gets to use Shadow Ball 12 times before running out of PP. 0.9375^12=0.4610 AKA, Aegislash will get a crit Shadow Ball againt Deoxys 54% of the time. That's where Mud Slap comes in, which drastically reduces these odds because most of Aegislash's Shadow Balls will now be misses.

 

[SP458]

Agreed for the most part! Let's ban accuracy reduction moves. However, you forgot one item: Lax Incense. As for drawing the line, I think that we should only ban moves that have a 100% chance to lower accuracy (ie Mud Slap, Kinesis, Flash). Banning moves that have a, say, 30% chance to lower accuracy only restricts teambuilding. I do get Octazooka and Leaf Tornado, though as they're strictly outclassed except in the manner of having a 50% chance to lower accuracy. But Muddy Water, Night Daze and Mud Bomb? No. The odds of them actually landing, lowering accuracy, and then causing the opponent to miss is literally the same chance as landing a critical hit.

/ds mud bomb, !earth power, all:
Arbok, Blissey, Chansey, Croagunk, Delcatty, Ekans, Golduck, Grimer, Happiny, Mudbray, Mudsdale, Muk, Politoed, Poliwag, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Psyduck, Skitty, Toxicroak

Remove NFEs and we have:

Arbok, Blissey, Delcatty, Golduck, Mudsdale, Muk, Politoed, Poliwrath, Toxicroak

If we remove all Pokémon with < 90 base SpA, we have only Golduck and Politoed, and even then Mud Bomb competes with better coverage options (for instance, both have Psychic for Poison-types). Against Electrics, better use Water STAB or another coverage.

Next, Muddy Water. Let's only keep non-NFEs who have only this move and neither Scald, Hydro Pump nor Surf... oh wait, only Goodra remains. Will we keep Muddy Water just for Goodra? Honestly I don't care.

Remains Night Daze, Zoroark's signature move, who also happens to learn a 100% accurate Dark Pulse with a neat 20% flinch chance on slower opponents. It might have only 5 less base power, but it has 50% more PP.

Just ban anything (item, ability or move) than can negatively affect opposing accuracy under a 1v1 extension of the Evasion Clause.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Congratulations to charizard8888 on coming in first place on this month's 1v1 tournament leaderboard! Also, well done to the rest of our top 5: UnleashOurPassion, Iron Crusher, partys over, and WillRBX (triple Tapu too good).

Here is the new schedule for next month (it's the same as last month's but with the times switched):

Watch out for updates in case we decide to add 2v2 to the slate.

times are also subject to change

 

[1vI]

Hi! New laptop and stuff... I'm back!

Heres my thoughts on a couple issues...

As for the solution, I feel like Elo Bandit had an amazing idea: unbanning Darkai. I get where Uselesscrab is coming from with not unbanning a broken thing to check another broken thing, but there's a flaw in that logic: Darkrai isn't broken. One interesting thing to look forwards to sometime in the future is the Marshadow release. Having both Darkrai, and the far more relevant Marshadow in the meta would keep Deoxys in check. However, Marshadow may just as well face a ban, and I don't expect Darkrai to be popular enough to help with the Deoxys crisis. So, all in all, I'd like to see Deoxys-D banned, regardless of whether Darkrai is unbanned or of the way Marshadow plays out.

I'm sure that everyone would agree that Darkrai and Marshadow would at least have a big impact on the Deoxys-Defense ban, and it would be a waste of time if we maybe ban it only for a retesting soon later. Not that that isn't fine, but it might be better to have a Darkrai unban discussion first if it is going to happen eventually. Ban Deoxys-Defense? Sure, it might be worthy of a ban, but I don't struggle that much with it.

Why Accuracy-Reducing Moves Should Be Banned

​

1. Why we should put off discussion of Deoxys-Defense in order to ban accuracy-reducing moves
If this is going to be a reason that Deoxys-Defense gets banned, then accuracy-reducing moves need to finally be banned. If Aegislash is a winning match-up for Deoxys-Defense because of Mud Slap, Mud Slap must go. The only reason accuracy-reducing moves haven't been banned is because they have been irrelevant, and so have been ignored. Clearly, they are no longer irrelevant and must be banned.

2. Evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing moves are essentially the same in 1v1
In 1v1, there is no real difference between evasion and accuracy, as there is no switching. Evasion moves are already banned, so accuracy-reducing moves should join them.

3. These moves, abilities, and items should be banned

Moves
Flash
Kinesis
Leaf Tornado
Mirror Shot
Mud Bomb
Mud-Slap
Muddy Water
Night Daze
Octazooka
Sand Attack
Smokescreen

Abilities
Sand Veil
Snow Cloak

Items
Brightpowder
Lax Incense

3a. A note in the interest of uniformity
Now, I don't really think all of these moves are useful in 1v1. If your Octazooka Sableye is not usable if we decide to ban accuracy-reducing moves, then that's a shame. Only Mud-Slap and Flash are problems in 1v1. I think we should ban all evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing moves in the name of consistency, however.

3b. A note on drawing the line
Looking at the list of every move that increases evasion or reduces accuracy, one might wonder, why ban every move? Why not just ban the problem moves, namely Flash and Mud-Slap and leave Muddy Water for some crazy build in the future. I would argue against this line of thinking because it then becomes difficult to decide where to draw the line at what is too haxy and what is not. Is Muddy Water the line? Is Brightpowder? Is Kinesis? What is the right amount of hax? I would rather avoid having a discussion that will, frankly, be pointless. Who cares if 1v1 bans Octazooka? Just ban everything and be done with it.

4. Conclusion
Accuracy-reducing moves should've been banned from the beginning of 1v1. They have been allowed to remain in 1v1 simply because they have been overlooked. I have always believed that the moment accuracy-reducing moves became relevant in 1v1, they would be judged uncompetitive and swiftly banned. I believe that has happened in Macemaster's post. Mud-Slap has moved from a harmless meme to a detrimental move. I think the subject of accuracy-reducing moves must be addressed before we can appropriately assess how broken Deoxys-Defense is in a meta without accuracy-reducing moves.

Accuracy reducing moves with near 100% success rate should be banned, since they are just as unhealthy as an evasion move like Double Team. Sure, Substitute helps, but some are go around Taunt. They're just different. As for items and abilities, the same rule should apply. Moves, Items, and Abilities that require minimal effort to force the game to an luck based state, such as Mud Slap or Brightpowder, should be banned. Abilities like Sand Veil though? Try using Sand Veil Sandstorm Garchomp and a Brightpowder anything. Its obvious which one is significantly more demanding.

Anyways, I need to catch up on my missed time.. Looking forward to getting back on my feet!

 

[Landon]

With all the discussion over banning accuracy lowering moves, I thought I would post a fun, yet viable Mega-Tyranitar set.

Tyranitar (M) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 216 HP / 148 Atk / 8 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

This is a set Blazikin and I worked on for a bit. Hope you enjoy! The Hp and Spdef are to take 3 non-specs Magnezone and Heatran flash cannon's. The speed is to outspeed Lele and Kyub after 1 dd. This set has a good chance against most Lele's. It can beat things it is expected to such as: Zard X, Y, Kyub, Koko, and many more lesser known mons! Some mons you might not know it can beat: Celesteela(most of the time), Magnezone, Fini, Heatran, and Dragonite.

Let's see some cals:

Charizard:

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Zard X: 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 368-434 (123.9 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if Zard subs than you can gladly go for eq as it will OHKO.
VS Bulky Zard X:
+1 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 112 HP / 240 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 446-528 (137.2 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 169-199 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
-2 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 112 HP / 240 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 152-180 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage.
Zard Y: 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 984-1156 (331.3 - 389.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
enough said.

Kyurem-Black:

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148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 402-474 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 309-364 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-Black: 434-512 (95.5 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
not that anyone runs that(exclude Rumplestiltskin) If it were to have some bulk all you need to do is dd and you're set!

Tapu Koko:

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148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 306-362 (108.8 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 229-270 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 264-312 (66.8 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko through Reflect: 153-181 (45.6 - 54%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Tapu Lele:

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+1 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 290-344 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 56 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 285-336 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Tapu Fini:

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148+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Tapu Fini: 160-189 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage (random evs, still similar to most Fini)
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 306-360 (77.4 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magnezone/Heatran:

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252+ SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 164-194 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 216 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 164-194 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Crunch+EQ Kills. specs zone wins unless you add 32 into speed. if you do so you will lose to Fini however.

Dragonite:

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252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 260-306 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just dd first turn and then SE.

!!Weaknesses!!
Fighting Type Pokemon(Includes Most Pokemon That Have Fighting Coverage)
Some common mons include: Sawk, Pinsir, Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Blaziken.Sturdy Pokemon
Some common mons include: Donphan, Crustle, Golem.Water/Grass/GroundType Pokemon
Some common mons include: Mega-Gyarados, Greninja, Primarina, Charm Mega-Venusaur, Mega-Blastoise, Lando T and I.
Physical Walls and Hard Hitting/Bulky Attackers
Some common mons include: Sableye, Most Chansey, Kartana, Bulu.

Now, I know this isn't the best set out there, but it is the set I like and use. Some things you can change along with evs are some notable moves such as: Rock Tomb, Taunt, Superpower, Fire Punch.

Thank you for reading! This is my first post and there will be more to follow!​

 

[Nalei]

With Marshadow on the loose, I thought I'd post a sample team.

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 236 Atk / 136 Def / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
I wanted to build around Marshadow and I came up with this set. Beats 80% of the A and S ranks, so it's a pretty good mon I'd say.

Magnezone @ Electrium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Electroweb
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Magnezone patches up Marshadow's weaknesses pretty well. Not too much to say about this.

I feel this could potentially be worthy of being a sample team. That being said, it's not perfect and has a few weaknesses:
Speed invested Meloetta: This can OHKO Marshadow, and if running enough speed for Magnezone, can effectively 2-0 my team.
Electrium Magnezone: Yay, mirror matchup!
Mega Gengar: Let's just pretend it doesn't exist, okay?

Team modification ideas:
Magnezone could potentially be changed to a Specs or Steelium set, or be dropped all together in place of Magneton. Another idea would be to add literally any pokemon in the third slot.
Edit: Magnezone was previously Specs. Changed to Electrium at the recommendation of Kentari.

Peaked at 1650:

My Point:
Marshadow is broken. Beating 80% of the meta is not okay. Having a viable 2-pokemon team is not okay. Thanks! <3

 

[Elo Bandit]

So Marshadow seems very ridiculously strong. Here's my go-to set:

Puppergeist (Marshadow) @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Rock Tomb
- Bulk Up​

Max speed lets you beat (or at least speed tie) all other Marshadows and blow them up with Soul-Stealing-Seven-Star-Strike. 188 Def lets you tank opposing Shadow Sneaks. EXAMPLE Close Combat nails steels and ice types like Kyu-B, Rock Tomb beats Zard and slows down things like Shell Smash Crustle for you to nuke the following turn. A huge speed stat also lets you use Bulk Up to great effectiveness, in conjunction with the Defense investment, Marshadow can tank some physical Z-moves or other strong physical hits. You barely need any attack investment to blow up half the metagame with Z-Spectral Thief, and different sets can be used to counter specific threats - ex. Thunder Punch to beat M-Gyarados or Substitute to beat Leech Seed/Status mons. Shadow Sneak helps vs Mimikyu, Aegislash, and other Marshadows.

Enjoy it while it lasts, cause this little guy is probably too powerful for 1v1 (unless we can find some reliable checks).

 

[edudittA]

Prof.iHen The point is not about it not being prevalent in the meta. The fact that it exists is in itself questionable. As we very well know, not one strategy is very well used in the meta; it is this fact that makes 1v1 so cool, we 1v1ers use various tactics. The issue, as I'm always emphasizing, is that sleep always makes the game more inclined towards luck than skill. Thats the point I'm trying to vainly make here, I guess.

Hi, guys! This is your favorite Wrath Of Alakazam, back with another post!

As we all know, Marshadow got released yesterday, and RIP to all who is using who're not using it, because it's a very good, rather too good, mon, and this will be a post analyzing whether this mon is suitable to the 1v1 meta.

Marshadow's stats are:
HP:90,Atk:125, Def:80,SpA:90, SpD:90, Speed:125,BST:600

As you can see, while its defences are decent, it has awesome speed, nice attack, and an impressive roster of moves it has access to, including Will-o-wisp, Bulk Up, and the Spectral Thief we're so familiar with from Balanced Hackmons. It also has its own Z-move, namely Soul-Stealing 7 Star Strike, a 190-Base Power absolute beast.

This, with some def investment, is able to stall and beat all usual mons in the meta, like Kyurem-Black, Charizards, Gyarados-Mega, Aegislash, though it doesn't OHKO Tapu KOKO, not having enough speed. Even then, there is no denying that it is really good.

 

[Felucia]

It also has its own Z-move, namely Soul-Stealing 7 Star Strike, a 190-Base Power absolute beast.

I just want to point out that the existence of a 190 power Z-Move is not that big of a deal, because other Pokémon have access to such moves too. It's a nice addition but technically irrelevant.

 

[edudittA]

I just want to point out that the existence of a 190 power Z-Move is not that big of a deal, because other Pokémon have access to such moves too. It's a nice addition but technically irrelevant.

I know that, but it also has its fair part in making it intolerably good

 

[Tol]

I just want to point out that the existence of a 190 power Z-Move is not that big of a deal, because other Pokémon have access to such moves too. It's a nice addition but technically irrelevant.

Marshadow does not have access to a 190 BP special Z-Move, it's 195 BP. Sorry to be nitpicking, but what's life without people pointing out all your tiny mistakes?

 

[Landon]

Accuracy reduction moves, ban or not? I will straight up give you my thoughts, BAN. These moves/items are unhealthy to the meta and can give you sneaky wins that you're not supposed to get. As Kentari said, "I think we should ban all evasion-boosting and accuracy-reducing moves in the name of consistency." I get that only some moves are a problem. (Flash, Bright Powder, Mud Slap) The fact is, if only certain moves/items were to be banned than there would be people complaining. "How come Mud Slap is banned, but not Muddy Water??" Even though Muddy Water relies on UOP hax, there would still be complainers. In conclusion I think accuracy reduction moves/items should be banned in 1v1.

I created an alt in which I used about 2 teams total. One of the teams involved Deo-D w/ the dreaded Mud Slap. That team was used 90% of all my battles. I got to #5 on ladder, than lost a game. I used Deo-D about 65% of the time I laddered.

Now time for SOME replays:

Deo-D
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-597525583
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599596790
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599595250
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599591481
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599587493
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599595575

Magearna vs. Aerodactyl-Who do You Think Won?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-599551575
Needed 1 more win in that tour...

 

[The Immortal]

Announcement: Uselesscrab will be joining Dream Eater Gengar and myself on the 1v1 leadership team! We hope this addition will result in better, and quicker, decisions for the 1v1 metagame.

 

[KroxoDude47]

Why Deoxys Defense Mode should be banned from 1v1:

Reason 1:Bulkiness.Already paying attention to the fact that it has 160 sp.def AND 160 defense,he gets buffed more because of amnesia and calm mind,he can become a powerful tank that can slowly kill you while you can't kill him.Did I forget to mention that it barely has any checks?

Reason 2:"The PP drain stratagy". Because of It's high bulkiness,it can obviously withstand many hits.But what makes him so broken is because of a move called recover that recovers his health to full or close to full,so when you whittle down his HP,he can just use recover,and all that effort will be undone.This effectively makes you repeat the cycle until you run out of HP,and then he can slowly kill you with toxic.

Reason 3:The 1 pokemon problem.This problem technically applies to Deoxys-D,because since you can only use one pokemon how can you drain his health in time with his extremely high defense and sp.def?

Reason 4: Detect.If you even try to lower is defense or sp.def,he can just use detect,which can disable your defense lowering move.

For these reasons,Deoxys-D should be banned from 1v1.

 

[edudittA]

Hi, guys, this is your favorite Wrath Of Alakazam, back with another post. This time, I'll be just posting a team I made myself(a first of sorts). Hope you enjoy it, and don't copy it! :P

Hide

Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Atk / 80 Def / 76 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast

Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 52 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Charge

This team is good, and I'll guide you through its EVs, it's weaknesses and my personal assessment!

EV's:

Steelix-M:
Steelix-M is an absolute physical tanker; never let no one tell you otherwise. It has a decentish special defense. Coming back to the EV's,


EVs: 248 HP / 104 Atk / 80 Def / 76 SpD

The 248HP/76SpDef helps in tanking a physical scarf EP from Kyurem-Black[which they run to kill magnezone and aggron].


4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Steelix-Mega: 146-174 (41.3 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

104+ Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (136 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-Black: 474-558 (121.2 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, this thing is a joke against Charizards; try rock blast first to find out Charizard type and then,depending on whatever, use EQ ,if X. Steelix is Sturdy, so you could use it to find out Char type.

104+ Atk Steelix-Mega Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 396-468 (133.3 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I defo chose Steelix-M for Tapu Koko, an established annoyance, and Marshadow, an upcoming annoyance.

Its ground type, so Koko cries, and its physical bulk lets it live SSSSS, Marshadow's Z-move, and close combat.

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Steelix-Mega: 264-312 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
104+ Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 424-501 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I need not even do Calcs on Koko.

Weaknesses : Any water types, since water types carry decent bulk along with it, Venusaur-M, with its super annoying set of charm, leech seed, sleep powder, actually,most of the special attackers!

Next, on Koko:

Tapu Koko:

Koko exists to kill stalls with its mono offensive set, like, Deo-D, Pyukumuku, Shuckle, Sableye-M and the like!

No calcs here, just taunt, charge and kill 'em all!

I've actually found another interesting counter to Marshadow in this, since Koko OHKOs with GigaVoltHavoc, and in the future, I might think of making this Koko physical!

Weaknesses:
This mon is again weak to Venusaur-M, and many other grass types(leaving aside Sunkern and the like!:P) which is why I contemplated switching between this and Tapu Lele depending on the Pokemon currently being brought by the ladder guys, you know! Also, ground types, since this is a mono electric offender.

To the finale, Gyarados-M:

Gyarados-M
This Pokemon is terrific, and syncs with the other two mons just fine! Gyarados-M's purpose is to weed out F.E.A.R mons, and sturdy abusers like Magnezone. People have not been very comfy with me running speed on it, but I actually need it to kill Magneton, but you, depending on whether you need it or not, could EV it as you deem fit! The EV's are to (hopefully, without crit) survive a Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt! And Outrage in return!


-1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 52 HP / 128 Def Gyarados-Mega: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 52 HP / 128 Def Gyarados-Mega: 146-174 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

+1(After DDance) 128 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 414-488 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is a very established Charizard counter, though! Forget Steelix being a Char counter, coz that involves lots of guesswork and stuff, this thing actually kills Charizards without having to worry about anything!

Weaknesses: Venusaur-M, coz most of Gyarados-M is, Koko, which Steelix-M takes care of!


ASSESSMENT:

I've four accounts on the ladder, and three are in the top 20,and guess what? Just one(two,depending on venusaur-M arrival) team, one which I just mentioned! So, go on, guys, get up and about! This team is good!

P. S. : If you find Venusaur-M annoying you too much, just go out there, replace your Koko with whatever Lele you wanna, though I use 252HP/156Def/100+SpA specs with Psyshock/Moonblast/ShadowBall/TBolt ,which kills Venusaur-M coz of psycho terrain! But beware, you have to pray that Deo-D(Stall) gets crit from your shadow ball!

 

[DEG]

The 1v1 leadership team has decided to Quick BAN Accuracy Reducing moves from the 1v1 metagame.

As stated in the thread this generation and even last generation, accuracy reducing moves are unhealthy for the metagame, not in a Pokemon-broken way but on the uncompetitive side. It also brings nothing positive to the metagame but creates more luck based situations. Some defensive threats find themselves being able to defeat Pokemon that they shouldn't due to the sheer amount of the luck factor in the matchup, an example of that can be Deoxys-Defense vs Aegislash where Mudslap can reduce Aegislash's accuracy coinflipping the game due to misses. Other user of accuracy reducing move is Mega Venusaur, and I'm sure as we go through the generation there will be more accuracy dropping Pokemon. Accuracy Dropping moves being useless outside of completely turning the game to a coinflip makes them uncompetitive. Which is why I think they deserve to be quick banned.

I definitely agree, no need to spend time on a suspect for this one. I suppose if we really wanted to we could try to solicit arguments from the opposing side, but I haven't seen anything remotely compelling yet.

All moves will be banned including moves like Leaf Tornado, Kinesis, Muddy Water, Octazooka etc..

These moves aren't realistically used anyway so there isn't any harm done in banning them. The only possibly argument against is that they're unreliable.

​

PS: Since I've been asked and for future tournaments, Accuracy reducing moves will also be banned from ORAS 1v1 for the sake of uniformity.

 

[edudittA]

The 1v1 leadership team has decided to Quick BAN Accuracy Reducing moves from the 1v1 metagame.


All moves will be banned including moves like Leaf Tornado, Kinesis, Muddy Water, Octazooka etc..

Nice move, DEG. Totally

On a different yet related note, can you quickban sleep-causing moves too? They fit into all three yellow box texts,except that it's used more than accuracy-reducing moves!

 

[DEG]

After the release of Marshadow everyone in the room went crazy about how it should be banned from the metagame, I was curious and wanted to see why was it labeled as broken so I've played with Marshadow and played against Marshadow both on Ladder and Room Tournaments that I've hosted occasionally in a Round Robin Style to collect information. What I discovered that people made it seem way more overpowered as it was actually, actually Marshadow wasn't broken in my opinion as I often found checks and counters on the opposing teams or on my teams ranging from Pokemon present on the Viability Rankings and some that are not. I believe that Marshadow isn't as hard to deal with as other threats in the metagame that I will bring up later.

Puppergeist (Marshadow) @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Rock Tomb
- Bulk Up

I used Elo Bandit's Marshadow as I think is the superior Marshadow set to be honest, sporting great defensive bulk it is able to live some hits like opposing Marshadow's Shadow Sneak leaving the Marshadow vs Marshadow game to a mere speed tie if the opponent doesn't use Shadow Sneak. Marshadium-Z is better than the other Z-stones as it is stronger and Ghost-type moves are resisted by a limited amount of Pokemon in the metagame. While combined with Spectral Thief regular effects, Marshadow steals the other Pokemon boost which is handy against Stall Pokemon like Quagsire or Deoxys-Defense. Close Combat nails Normal-type Pokemon that Marshadium-Z fails to hit, it can also be used against types that get hit super effectively from Fighting moves just like Kyurem-Black. Rock Tomb is my favorite move on Marshadow as it can slow down opposing Choice Scarf Pokemon that might not die and helps it in beating Mega Gyarados, while Bulk Up allows it to hit bulkier builds.

All of these traits might get you to a simple conclusion that Marshadow is indeed broken, but it's not as easy in practice. It's speed and attack helps it against offensive builds but it struggles against fast and strong opponents (Choice Scarf per example), and bulky offensive to an extent. Another thing that I was hearing that Marshadow has no counter or checks but as I played I found opposite that it has a handful of checks that I'll list and will range from viable Pokemon, to underused Pokemon and some niche Pokemon so people don't go around and tell me "it forces the usage of top tier Pokemon".

Kyurem-Black
Set: Choice Specs
What it beats? All Marshadow except Fightinium

Choice Specs Kyurem-Black isn't considered a niche set at all but overall a viable set that is usable in a lot of cases and not only against Marshadow. Kyurem-Black is bulky enough to survive a Close Combat with 252 HP / 120 Def and retaliate back with Draco Meteor with atleast 136 Evs in Special Attack, it can be invested more in SpA to nail the OHKO on variants that run a little bit of HP. It can also defeat Marshadow if it uses Bulk Up. Substitute might be a trouble but it's not a move that should be ran on Marshadow to be honest.

Tapu Koko
Set: Standard Electrium-Z or Fairium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow

Tapu Koko is faster than Marshadow and can easily OHKO it with its raw power. Tapu Koko is easily considered a counter to Marshadow.

Tapu Lele
Set: Choice Scarf
What it beats? All Marshadow

With Psychic Terrain in effect Tapu Lele negates Marshadow's Shadow Sneak making it unable to strike first to actually OHKO Tapu Lele. This gives our guardian the upper hand as it faster with Choice Scarf and is able to OHKO Marshadow. I'd like to say that Choice Scarf isn't a bad set on Tapu Lele, with Psychium-Z becoming more and more predicable people won't notice the Choice Scarf on Tapu Lele making you hit both Marshadow and your opponent by surprise.

Dragonite
Set: Choice Band and Flyinium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow

Thanks to Multiscale Dragonite is even able to live a Choice Band Ice Punch from Marshadow rending the Ghost-type Pokemon useless against it. With Choice Band it is able to counter it even with the usage of Rock Tomb. Flyinium-Z becomes a guaranteed win.

Magearna
Set: Any Set
What it beats? All Marshadow

Magearna is also a guaranteed counter, unless you miss Fleur Cannon (Though anything can lose to anything with hax), it can even live Fightinium-Z Marshadow with Close Combat which makes Magearna one of the best counters.

Mega Mawile
Set: Standard set Offensive or Bulky
What it beats? All Marshadow

There's nothing to be said on Mega Mawile it can easily tank any hit from Marshadow thanks to Intimidate and retaliate back with Play Rough.

Landorus-Therian
Set: Flyinium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow (Choice Band Ice Punch depending on bulk)

With enough bulk, Landorus-Therian can easily live any hit thrown at it by Marshadow and easily win against it (120 HP + 140 Def is good enough). It hits Bulldoze first turn lowering Marshadow's speed allowing Landorus-Therian to outspeed it next turn and nail it with a Supersonic Skystrike.

Magnezone
Set: Electrium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow (Except Substitute)

Magnezone can one shot Marshadow with a Thunder boosted by Electrium-Z making it a check to Marshadow.

Mimikyu
Set: Fairium-Z or Ghostium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow

Thanks to Disguise Mimikyu acting as a pseudo-sash can nullify any first attack from Marshadow and can easily OHKO it with the help of either one of its STAB-moves.

Mega Venusaur
Set: Defensive Charm
What it beats? All Marshadow

Mega Venusaur can survive any move thrown at its face by Marshadow and lower the poor Ghost-type Pokemon attack with Charm rendering it useless against Mega Venusaur which can either Leech Seed stall it or try to make it fain thanks to Sludge Bomb or Giga Drain.

Meloetta
Set: Choice Specs
What it beats? All Marshadow

Meloetta can easily survive any attacking move from Marshadow and retaliate back with a Choice Specs Psychic or Shadow Ball winning the battle.

Tapu Fini
Set: Fairium-Z
What it beats? All Marshadow

With its secondary typing in Fairy it can withstand any Fighting-type move thrown at it by Marshadow, plus its bulky enough to even survive Marshadow's signature move SSSSS and retaliate back with a Fairy Z-move.

Celesteela
Set: Defensive w/ Air Slash
What it beats? All marshadow

Celesteela can survive any move by Marshadow and win with Air Slash

Honorable mentions:

Now, I'm not saying that Marshadow is completely bad since I named all of these Pokemon that can beat it and there's more but I'm clarifying that's the phrase "Marshadow beats 90% of the meta" should be revisited, as there's lot of Pokemon that can actually beat it. To note that I've mentioned that not all of these Pokemon always beat Marshadow but some sets to an extent. Now I know I'm going to get the Substitute argument, but it's not the most important move on Marshadow and can come with opportunity costs if you remove other moves. Meanwhile, people are now throwing the 252 HP with either fully defensive or specially defensive investment to defeat the checks I'm throwing which is also comes with opportunity costs as you no longer OHKO some Pokemon due to the lack of Attack investment or outspeed other important Pokemon with the lack of speed which goes with rule #6 on the banning philosophy. The Banning philosophy can be seen here, I'd suggest to give it a read and build arguments following it.

Now, in no mean I'm trying to debunk the fact that Marshadow is a great Pokemon and can be suspected in the future if more sets are discovered and it overcentralize the metagame. I'm here to just tell you that there's more than some counters to Marshadow. Now, there's some cores with Marshadow that are designed to take on its check but that doesn't mean it becomes unbeatable. All Pokemon when teamed up with another Pokemon can be hard to defeat.

I'm writing this post to say Marshadow will not be quickbanned if it all comes down me but will be suspected and will be put under the radar for some time. Marshadow reminds me of early generation-Mimikyu when everyone thoughts it was broken but is now in the borders of A- and B+ rankings in the Viability Rankings as people found lot of strategies to counter it. I think Marshadow should be pushed down the priority from the radar and focus more on issues that time could not resolve. I will detail a post about these Pokemon later and I might post some Marshadow cores and teams when I get the time. The decision isn't mine alone but that's what I believe, until then stay safe and pack your Marshadow and Marshadow counters!

(not proofreading this tbh)

 

[Nalei]

Another post on Marshadow. This time, I'll be calculating what percent of the meta Marshadow actually beats. We should keep in mind that according to the tiering philosophy, something that beats over half the meta with one set is broken. For this, I'll be analyzing what Marshadow beats and loses to by place in the VR. S rank pokemon will be weighted at 4, A rank at 3, B rank at 2 and C rank at 1. I'll be using my Marshadow set for this:
Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 236 Atk / 136 Def / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp

S Rank

Mega Gyarados: Win
Kyurem-B: Win

A Rank

Mega Charizard X: Win
Porygon-Z: Win
Tapu Koko: Lose
Scarf Tapu Lele (14%): Lose
Non-Scarf Tapu Lele (86%): Win
Mega Charizard Y: Win
Deoxys-D: Win
Flyinium Dragonite (9%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Dragonite (91%): Win
Magearna: Lose
Mega Mawile: Lose
Mega Metagross: Win
Mega Pinsir: Win
Aegislash: Win
Donphan: Win
Flyinium Landorus-T (31%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Landorus-T (69%): Win
Electrium Magnezone (49%): Lose
Non-Electrium Magnezone (51%): Win
Mimikyu: Lose
Mega Slowbro: Win
Charm Mega Venusaur (23%): Lose
Non-Charm Mega Venusaur (77%): Win

B Rank

Blast Burn/Brave Bird/Firium Blaziken (~50%): Lose
Physical LO Non-Brave Bird Blaziken (~50%): Win
Mega Blaziken: Win
Scarf Garchomp (12%): Lose
Non-Scarf Garchomp (88%): Win
Genesect: Win
Golem: Win
Greninja: Lose
Mega Heracross: Win
Kartana: Win
Meloetta: Lose
Primarina: Win
Tapu Fini: Lose
Mega Blastoise: Lose
Chansey: Win
Ferrothorn: Win
Heatran: Win
Jirachi: Lose
Jumpluff: Win
Sawk: Win
Snorlax: Win
Mega Swampert: Win
Mega Tyranitar: Win
Buzzwole: Win
Celesteela: Lose
Durant: Win
Mega Gengar: Lose
Scarf Latios (20%): Lose
Non-Scarf Latios (80%): Win
Mew: Win
Terrakion: Win
Umbreon: Win
Whimsicott: Lose

C Rank

Blissey: Win
Waterium/Specs Keldeo (63%): Lose
Non-Waterium/Specs Keldeo (37%): Win
Landorus-I: Win
Mega Medicham: Win
Pheromosa: Win
Mega Pidgeot: Lose
Mega Sableye: Lose
Scarf Victini (10%): Lose
Non-Scarf Victini (90%): Win
Aggron: Win
Avalugg: Win
Hitmonlee: Win
Infernape: Win
Mega Lucario: Win
Alolan Marowak: Win
Quagsire: Lose
Relicanth: Win
Thundurus-T: Win
Mega Abomasnow: Win
Barbaracle: Win
Mega Manectric: Lose
Nihilego: Win
Pyukumuku: Lose
Firium Salazzle (13%): Lose
Non-Firium Salazzle (87%): Win
Mega Sceptile: Win
Tapu Bulu: Lose
Zygarde: Win

Putting all of that together, using the weights I established above, we get 107.72 on the win side and 40.28 on the lose side. Translated into a percent, it beats 73% of the meta. Doing this analysis has changed my perspective on Marshadow. Do I still think it's broken? Yes. Do I still think it should be quick banned? No. I'd like to call for a Marshadow suspect test or at least include it in the next pre-suspect.
EDIT: Fixed my math

 

[Felucia]

Another post on Marshadow. This time, I'll be calculating what percent of the meta Marshadow actually beats. We should keep in mind that according to the tiering philosophy, something that beats over half the meta with one set is broken. For this, I'll be analyzing what Marshadow beats and loses to by place in the VR. S rank pokemon will be weighted at 4, A rank at 3, B rank at 2 and C rank at 1. I'll be using my Marshadow set for this:
Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 236 Atk / 136 Def / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp

S Rank

Mega Gyarados: Win
Kyurem-B: Win

A Rank

Mega Charizard X: Win
Porygon-Z: Win
Tapu Koko: Lose
Scarf Tapu Lele (14%): Lose
Non-Scarf Tapu Lele (86%): Win
Mega Charizard Y: Win
Deoxys-D: Win
Flyinium Dragonite (9%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Dragonite (91%): Win
Magearna: Lose
Mega Mawile: Lose
Mega Metagross: Win
Mega Pinsir: Win
Aegislash: Win
Donphan: Win
Flyinium Landorus-T (31%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Landorus-T (69%): Win
Electrium Magnezone (49%): Lose
Non-Electrium Magnezone (51%): Win
Mimikyu: Lose
Mega Slowbro: Win
Charm Mega Venusaur (23%): Lose
Non-Charm Mega Venusaur (77%): Win

B Rank

Blast Burn/Brave Bird/Firium Blaziken (~50%): Lose
Physical LO Non-Brave Bird Blaziken (~50%): Win
Mega Blaziken: Win
Scarf Garchomp (12%): Lose
Non-Scarf Garchomp (88%): Win
Genesect: Win
Golem: Win
Greninja: Lose
Mega Heracross: Win
Kartana: Win
Meloetta: Lose
Primarina: Win
Tapu Fini: Lose
Mega Blastoise: Lose
Chansey: Win
Ferrothorn: Win
Heatran: Win
Jirachi: Lose
Jumpluff: Win
Sawk: Win
Snorlax: Win
Mega Swampert: Win
Mega Tyranitar: Win
Buzzwole: Win
Celesteela: Lose
Durant: Win
Mega Gengar: Lose
Scarf Latios (20%): Lose
Non-Scarf Latios (80%): Win
Mew: Win
Terrakion: Win
Umbreon: Win
Whimsicott: Lose

C Rank

Blissey: Win
Waterium/Specs Keldeo (63%): Lose
Non-Waterium/Specs Keldeo (37%): Win
Landorus-I: Win
Mega Medicham: Win
Pheromosa: Win
Mega Pidgeot: Lose
Mega Sableye: Lose
Scarf Victini (10%): Lose
Non-Scarf Victini (90%): Win
Aggron: Win
Avalugg: Win
Hitmonlee: Win
Infernape: Win
Mega Lucario: Win
Alolan Marowak: Win
Quagsire: Lose
Relicanth: Win
Thundurus-T: Win
Mega Abomasnow: Win
Barbaracle: Win
Mega Manectric: Lose
Nihilego: Win
Pyukumuku: Lose
Firium Salazzle (13%): Lose
Non-Firium Salazzle (87%): Win
Mega Sceptile: Win
Tapu Bulu: Lose
Zygarde: Win

Putting all of that together, using the weights I established above, we get 107.72 on the win side and 40.28 on the lose side. Translated into a percent, it beats 63% of the meta. Interestingly enough, this puts it just 1% above Deoxys-D. Doing this analysis has changed my perspective on Marshadow. Do I still think it's broken? Yes. Do I still think it should be quick banned? No. I'd like to call for a Marshadow suspect test or at least include it in the next pre-suspect.

I'm gonna go over that list and improve it point out some things.

S Rank

Kyurem-B: Set-dependant

A Rank

Mega Charizard X: Usually win
Scarf Tapu Lele (14%): Lose
Non-Scarf Tapu Lele (86%): Win
Flyinium Dragonite (9%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Dragonite (91%): Win Usually
Mega Pinsir: Lose? Did I miss something important?
Flyinium Landorus-T (31%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Landorus-T (69%): Lose. Rock Tomb -> Bulk Up -> Z-EQ
Electrium Magnezone (49%): Lose
Non-Electrium Magnezone (51%): Win Unless Analytic or Specs Thunder

B Rank

Scarf Garchomp (12%): Lose
Non-Scarf Garchomp (88%): Win A lot of factors can influence this victory and therefore I wouldn't see it as a guaranteed one
Primarina: Lose We need to talk about the bulk your average high ladder player runs on their primarina

C Rank

Mega Abomasnow: Win A sufficiently bulky Abomasnow should be able to win somehow
Firium Salazzle (13%): Lose
Non-Firium Salazzle (87%): Lose? Specs?
Mega Sceptile: Lose In my world, we run Modest Frenzy Plant

Another thing I want to point out is the following

this took up too much space

Scarf Latios (20%): Lose
Non-Scarf Latios (80%): Win

You'll win against 80% of Latios, right? keep in mind that Latios is an arbitrary example taken from your post

I have some first-hand experience to prove otherwise.
Allow me to take you back to early March 2017. I created my well-known Icium-Z Kyurem-Black set. A set that beats a lot of things with its defense. The usage stats for Garchomp from February show us everything we need to know.

 | Items                                  | 
 | Choice Scarf 26.026%                   | 
 | Choice Band 24.202%                    | 
 | Groundium Z 13.665%                    | 
 | Salac Berry  8.381%                    | 
 | Life Orb  6.210%                       | 
 | Dragonium Z  5.506%                    | 
 | Assault Vest  3.367%                   | 
 | Haban Berry  2.715%                    | 
 | Rocky Helmet  2.404%                   | 
 | King's Rock  2.159%                    | 
 | Yache Berry  1.500%                    | 
 | Other  3.865%                          |

Nice! Only about 30% of the garchomp will be able to beat my Kyurem. That's really something to look forward to!

Well... In practice this didn't really work out and you can see why when you take a look at March usage stats

 | Items                                  | 
 | Choice Band 52.339%                    | 
 | Choice Scarf 19.499%                   | 
 | Groundium Z 11.871%                    | 
 | Life Orb  4.966%                       | 
 | Rocky Helmet  2.793%                   | 
 | Dragonium Z  2.627%                    | 
 | Assault Vest  1.389%                   | 
 | Other  4.515%                          |

I got destroyed that Month because 1v1 isn't a static metagame. The amount of Garchomp that beat my Kyurem almost doubled, making my Kyurem a lot less reliable. I think it's fairly unreasonable to draw a conclusion based off what people were doing before Marshadow was introduced.

This applies to the following mons you mentioned:

Hide

No Change
Tapu Lele: This one probably isn't going to change much, because people love their psychium and specs
Garchomp: Scarf usage has been going up a little bit recently, but it'll never be very popular
Salazzle: I don't talk about Salazzle because I have no knowledge
Venusaur: I don't talk about Venusaur because I have no knowledge
Keldeo: Has always been running more Water-Z so that's probably gonna stay like that.

Change
Dragonite: I expect to see a lot more Flyinium-Z this month
Lando-T: Idem
Magnezone: Electrium-Z has already been becoming the main set in 1v1, and I expect this Marshadow situation is just going to further that
Latios: I don't think anyone even runs Latios atm
Victini: Probably going to be running a little more scarf. idk

I don't think Marshadow is broken, but that's not my point. The point is that at this point we shouldn't be pointing fingers just for someone pointing out that Marshadow isn't beatable by last month's meta.

I hope that made sense.


1: I don't think Marshadow is broken in the long run, I do think it's broken now Dream Eater Gengar mentioned Mimikyu to illustrate this
2: I think Marshadow needs more time before we can decide if it's broken

 

[Nalei]

I'm gonna go over that list and improve it point out some things.

S Rank

Kyurem-B: Set-dependant

A Rank

Mega Charizard X: Usually win
Scarf Tapu Lele (14%): Lose
Non-Scarf Tapu Lele (86%): Win
Flyinium Dragonite (9%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Dragonite (91%): Win Usually
Mega Pinsir: Lose? Did I miss something important?
Flyinium Landorus-T (31%): Lose
Non-Flyinium Landorus-T (69%): Lose. Rock Tomb -> Bulk Up -> Z-EQ
Electrium Magnezone (49%): Lose
Non-Electrium Magnezone (51%): Win Unless Analytic or Specs Thunder

B Rank

Scarf Garchomp (12%): Lose
Non-Scarf Garchomp (88%): Win A lot of factors can influence this victory and therefore I wouldn't see it as a guaranteed one
Primarina: Lose We need to talk about the bulk your average high ladder player runs on their primarina

C Rank

Mega Abomasnow: Win A sufficiently bulky Abomasnow should be able to win somehow
Firium Salazzle (13%): Lose
Non-Firium Salazzle (87%): Lose? Specs?
Mega Sceptile: Lose In my world, we run Modest Frenzy Plant

Another thing I want to point out is the following

this took up too much space

You'll win against 80% of Latios, right? keep in mind that Latios is an arbitrary example taken from your post

I have some first-hand experience to prove otherwise.
Allow me to take you back to early March 2017. I created my well-known Icium-Z Kyurem-Black set. A set that beats a lot of things with its defense. The usage stats for Garchomp from February show us everything we need to know.

 | Items                                  |
| Choice Scarf 26.026%                   |
| Choice Band 24.202%                    |
| Groundium Z 13.665%                    |
| Salac Berry  8.381%                    |
| Life Orb  6.210%                       |
| Dragonium Z  5.506%                    |
| Assault Vest  3.367%                   |
| Haban Berry  2.715%                    |
| Rocky Helmet  2.404%                   |
| King's Rock  2.159%                    |
| Yache Berry  1.500%                    |
| Other  3.865%                          |

Nice! Only about 30% of the garchomp will be able to beat my Kyurem. That's really something to look forward to!

Well... In practice this didn't really work out and you can see why when you take a look at March usage stats

 | Items                                  |
| Choice Band 52.339%                    |
| Choice Scarf 19.499%                   |
| Groundium Z 11.871%                    |
| Life Orb  4.966%                       |
| Rocky Helmet  2.793%                   |
| Dragonium Z  2.627%                    |
| Assault Vest  1.389%                   |
| Other  4.515%                          |

I got destroyed that Month because 1v1 isn't a static metagame. The amount of Garchomp that beat my Kyurem almost doubled, making my Kyurem a lot less reliable. I think it's fairly unreasonable to draw a conclusion based off what people were doing before Marshadow was introduced.

This applies to the following mons you mentioned:

Hide

No Change
Tapu Lele: This one probably isn't going to change much, because people love their psychium and specs
Garchomp: Scarf usage has been going up a little bit recently, but it'll never be very popular
Salazzle: I don't talk about Salazzle because I have no knowledge
Venusaur: I don't talk about Venusaur because I have no knowledge
Keldeo: Has always been running more Water-Z so that's probably gonna stay like that.

Change
Dragonite: I expect to see a lot more Flyinium-Z this month
Lando-T: Idem
Magnezone: Electrium-Z has already been becoming the main set in 1v1, and I expect this Marshadow situation is just going to further that
Latios: I don't think anyone even runs Latios atm
Victini: Probably going to be running a little more scarf. idk

I don't think Marshadow is broken, but that's not my point. The point is that at this point we shouldn't be pointing fingers just for someone pointing out that Marshadow isn't beatable by last month's meta.

I hope that made sense.


1: I don't think Marshadow is broken in the long run, I do think it's broken now Dream Eater Gengar mentioned Mimikyu to illustrate this
2: I think Marshadow needs more time before we can decide if it's broken

Some of these are correct, and I still agree with the conclusion of your post, but some of them are wrong.
I did forget about specs Kyu-B.
Correct, Zard X can force 50/50s
It's really not a usually wins vs non-Flyinium Dragonite. WoW->Spectral Thief (if DD)/Bulk Up (If Outrage)->SSSSS reliably beats it
Non-Flyinium Landorus loses to Marshadow too. Observe: WoW, Rock Tomb->Tectonic Rage, Bulk Up->Earthquake, SSSSS (15+135+50=200 total power vs Marshadow). 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Seed Bomb [200 BP] vs. 0 HP / 136 Def Marshadow: 266-313 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Pinsir: 236 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 262-309 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Analytic (LOL) gets OHKO'd by CC, Specs Thunder is true
Non-Scarf Garchomp: "A lot of factors" Like what? Does Bulk Up into SSSSS not win every time bar crits?
I lowkey pretend bulky Primarina doesn't exist. Kill me.
If you run more than 248/12 bulk on your Abomasnow, I'm angry
Oh yeah, Specs Salazzle kinda wins
Mega Sceptile: I've honestly never seen anymore run it :P
Sorry, that nitpicking was kinda unimportant. I'm with you that we need to wait at least a month before suspecting Marshadow, though. The meta will adapt, but I still believe it will remain broken, just not to the same degree.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I am currently a little disappointed with some of the 1v1 community as a lot of people have been blindly yelling about how Marshadow deserves a ban due to it being OP and very influential in the metagame. With my post I hope to discuss why it's not overpowered, and how it being "influential" forcing people to run sets they weren't running before isn't a good argument for the banning of the mon. so, without anymore delay let's get into my little make shift guide on...

Dealing with Marshadow Step by Step
​

1. One of the first things that will happen, and has happened, when a new STRONG Pokemon is released into the tier is that it will put in some work. People need to understand that their teams built pre-release of Marshadow being beaten by Marshadow doesn't make the mon broken (not many have this view, but enough people have mentioned an argument similar to this in the 1v1 room that I just want to address it). The metagame is shifting, causing the effectiveness of prior built teams to fall, which is natural following any Pokemon's release. An example of this from another tier is when M-Medicham entered SM OU where a large portion of "good" squads were almost invalidated as M-Medicham just ran through spamming HJK, however, this mon wasn't deemed broken - instead the OU playerbase adapted to this new threat making it much more manageable.
2. This adaption is step two. Players in OU started using mons like Defensive Mew, who had seen little prior usage, to check M-Medicham. While Mew was still a solid option on OU teams prior to M-Medicham entering the tier, it didn't truly shine tell a new top tier threat that it could neutralize appeared. While Mew may not be the answer in this sceanrio with Marshadow, other rarely used potential answers have started to emerge such as: Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, CB/Fly-Z Dragonite, and Physically Defensive Celesteela. Now I realize that in the past these mons weren't the most prolific team members - but the past is the past - and with new threats it looks as if they're ready to step up and help keep this new enemy in check.
3. Now that we have a few new ideas on how to stop Marshadow we need to focus on testing. Marshadow has only been out for a short time, and I'm not ready to be satisfied with an "optimal" set or a list of "best checks" for Marshadow. Everyday that passes we as a community have the chance to try out a new set or a new mon to help either advance/reign in Marshadow. For example today being back from vacation (so no real testing on Marshadow) I ran some calcs to see Electrium-Z Magnezone can beat most Marshadow, something I expected to fall to the combination of Shadow Sneak into Close Combat. While Magnezone is a more basic discovery I know I'm not the only player in 1v1 still making personal discoveries on new checks/spreads, helping find out how good Marshadow truly is.
4. Next we need to address the issue after some time has passed (A few people earlier on in the thread hinted at a quick ban, which was dismissed - I just want to go over why that's for the best). Given time the player base will change and adapt to a meta where Marshadow exists; just look at the ubers tier where Marshadow is terrorizing Ekiller and Ghostceus while also causing an extreme rise in the usage of Arceus-Fairy. Once the meta has had time to stabilize, and players truly get a feel for what Marshadow can and can't do, as well as, what can and can't check it do I feel it's time to discuss a policy change (a possible ban).

Thanks for reading my guide above^^^ I'm sure most of you already had a good idea on how to handle this. Just watching over the 1v1 room (btw on showdown type /j 1v1 to come chill and discuss 1v1 - gotta plug) I feel to many people are blatantly asking for a Marshadow ban without showing proper patience in policy discussion. Anyway, before I end this post I would like to discuss my thoughts on the mon.

(Marshadow) @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Rock Tomb
- Bulk Up
​

Original credit for this set goes to Elo Bandit, which I'm using for the post as I feel it's currently one of the better sets (feel free to try it out) - but I do still implore everyone to try other sets such as Choice Band , Choice Scarf, and Fightinium Z. To be honest testing this mon I wasn't really impressed. I used a decent team Kentari passed to me. However, I seldom found myself in a match up where Marshadow was sent out, and simply claimed a kill no matter who my opponent chose. I see some of this as new toy syndrome where everyone either had a Marshadow (and loved picking it) or had a solid answer (and was conditioned into picking it). This pushes me towards the conclusion that Marshadow doesn't really deserve a ban, but that's a very soft opinion. I also won't discuss on "what it beats/loses versus" as a few users such as: Dream Eater Gengar and UnleashOurPassion - along with a few others have made posts of that nature earlier in the thread I recommend you read. I guess what I'm trying to say is that currently teams are able to deal with Marshadow, yes they may have to run something like Electrium Z Magenzone, Specs Meloetta, or Tapu Koko to beat it, but that's not over centralizing in a tier like 1v1 as people have to pretty consistently use something that beats said mon as team chip and hazards pressure doesn't exist in 1v1. This could bring up the argument that the mons used to check Marshadow aren't good in the "meta". However, I feel that's a premature answer as the true "Marshadow meta" hasn't been fully revealed, as people still seem to be stuck in the pre-release meta basing how broken the mon is based upon usage stats from a tier where the mon in question didn't exist (which just doesn't make sense to me). Anyway I'll stop my ramblings, I just want to leave you with the word "patience", since in my opinion in a tier like 1v1 where creativity is celebrated I feel it's to soon for calls of a potential suspect/quick ban as we're just testing the waters of what I feel will be a great next chapter in 1v1 where Marshadow along with other recent releases such as M-Lopunny, M-Gardevoir, and M-Gallade lead the way.

​

 

[motogp]

(Note that this is my first post in the smogon forums,please be patient with any mistakes I may make)
So,I am motogp,a new 1v1 player and I want to explain my reasonings on why Marshadow should be banned.
Firstly,I find it pretty ridiculous that not a single suspect/pre-suspect has been made on Marshadow,considering many people request it being banned and many reasons have been provided.From my 1 month (and a little bit more) experience,I feel like the meta was a way better place before Marshadow got released,since many common threats have fallen in usage rate.On the other hand,fun gimmicks such as Umbreon (my personal favourite,but there are other examples as well),are being threatened by marshadow,that perfectly counters them,making the ladder a less interesting place.
Secondly,I don't find a reason why a pokémon that beats 72% of the metagame (as previously mentioned) should be kept into the game.Being able to beat both zards (most of the time),most Kyurem-B,every psychic type except Meloetta,Girafarig and Scarf Tapu Lele (7,5% of Leles) and a whole lot of others is a good point by itself.
Furthermore,I do not think that the meta is ready to face Marshadow since there are not a lot of guaranteed counters to it.Having Marshadow in the game forces Tapu Koko to run Timid nature in order to beat its most common variants,losing valuable attack/special attack points to OHKO common threats.

Finally,I would like to talk about what Marshadow has done to help the meta.

Marshadow beats the (undoubtedly) best stalling wall in the game,Deoxys-Defense.This means that if it is kept into the game,we may not even need to ban it.Although I don't agree with the logic 'keep one broken pokémon to counter another broken pokémon',I still wanted to bring this out as a fact.

 

[Iron Crusher]

alright so i decided to write just a small thing about marshadow since a lot of things have already been said and i don't think i can add more than what has been mentioned before.
so my opinion on marshadow is pretty simple: i don't like the way it stares at me in team preview.
but in all seriousness i don't think marshadow has been here long enough to say that it is broken and i am personally interested in the way this metagame will develop with marshadow there.
so i hope to wait with our decision on what we are going to do with marshadow until we see if the influence marshadow will bring in the long run will be positive or negative.

this is my current opinion on the matter if you disagree feel free to post your opinion here or even discuss it with me in the 1v1 room.

<3 Iron Crusher.

 

[Tol]

Uh... so after the start of the Marshadow era, I realized that my old team pretty much got 3-0ed by it. So, I decided to make a set that countered all of the additions to the meta. After a while, I came up with this guy.

Try and stomp on this insect.​

Yep, it's a Scizor. Now, although its Bug/Steel typing doesn't help you out much offensively against anything but Gardevoir, its amazing movepool and ability does.

SXIZRO (Scizor-Mega) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 190 Atk / 66 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Brutal Swing

Now, let me explain myself. Bug Bite and Bullet Punch are for the all-important STABs, Aerial Ace is for the Fighting-Types, and Brutal Swing is for Ghosts.
The EVs are for all sorts of hit-taking scenarios.

Calcs and Hyperbole

Marshadow - 252+ Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 66 Def Scizor-Mega: 241-285 (70 - 82.8%) 252+ Atk Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 66 Def Scizor-Mega: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%), so they can't two shot you unless they get close to the best possible roll on both or crit you.
190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 278-328 (72.3 - 85.4%) 190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 139-165 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO so you're getting the two shot in almost every scenario.

Lopunny - 252+ Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 66 Def Scizor-Mega: 27-32 (7.8 - 9.3%) 252+ Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 66 Def Scizor-Mega: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%), they aren't killing you before 190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 242-286 (89.2 - 105.5%) happens. If it doesn't OHKO, 190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 121-144 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO will kill the rabbit.

Gardevoir - 252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 192-227 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO on the defensive end, and
190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 326-386 (95.8 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO on the offensive.

Gallade - 252+ Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 66 Def Scizor-Mega: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and 190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 240-284 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. Of course, 190+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gallade-Mega: 120-142 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO can mop up anything that's still living.

Uh, yeah, that's my Scizor set. Y'all can use it if you want. Until the next time I'm bored and feel like making another weird set, T G C.