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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Nice move, DEG. Totally

On a different yet related note, can you quickban sleep-causing moves too? They fit into all three yellow box texts,except that it's used more than accuracy-reducing moves!
Well you guys are 2 months late with this! I'd posted way back when! GET SLEEP BANNED ASAP
Hi, this is your favorite Wrath Of Alakazam. This is my first post, so do bear with my style, but here goes:

I've been playing the 1v1 meta for about a couple of years (?). I've noticed many players using various versatile tactics to combat and counter other Pokémon and teams. One particular thing has been bothering me from a strategy point of view- the sleep-and-hit strategy. It's simple-just put the opponent to sleep, either by Yawn and then Protect/Endure, or Sleep Powder/Hypnosis and then offend or Leech Seed. This strategy has been used since 1v1 itself, and is itself one of the seemingly good,consistent way of winning.

The idea of PS! is to provide a platform for competitive battling. There has been innumerable strategies, most of which are very good and competitive. Not sleep! It shifts the 1v1 meta from a skill- and competitive-based game to merely a luck-based play.

Since the introduction of the Z-move concept, the sleep play has seen a dip in usage since the protect part can be broken by Z-move. Even so, it can't be ignored merely on usage basis.

Some examples of mons (which otherwise is garb) gaining undue advantage through this strategy:

Relicanth @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Yawn
- Protect
- Head Smash
- Waterfall


Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Yawn
- Endure
- Hydro Cannon
- Flash Cannon


Hippowdon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Yawn
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide.


Snorlax @ Normalium Z
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Yawn
- Protect
- Belly Drum
- Double-Edge


Total sucker (Jumpluff) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect


Even though there are strategies to counter this play like Sub, Taunt, or just killing the Mon, there are few viable mons which can run this set and not fear being trampled by other well-used mons like Gyarados-M, Char and Koko, to name a few

So with the funda of the meta in mind, I strongly call for a complete curtain ban on sleep-inducing moves.
This was that post

I'd(and I suspect Blazikin would also agree to) say, ban just only sleep-inducing moves, and not Relic Song, because, it still is necessary to change Meloetta's formes.
 
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Amidst all this heavy discussion about sleep ban, lemme show you a GOAT!



Gogoat @ Grassium Z
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Milk Drink
- Leaf Blade
- Double-Edge

This mountain goat looks so adorable and cute, and behind it's cuteness is hidden a decent gimmick/monster. It has 123HP/100Atk/BulkUp/MilkDrink, a potent laughworthy-yet-good set right there. BulkUp setup helps against gyaradosM, and the EV's have gone into tanking Charged special GVH from Tapu Koko. Milk Drink helps against Mimikyu, while this also serves as a counter/check for greninja!

This is nowhere gonna be the next best thing since like Marshadow, when coupled with decent teammates like regirock/nihilego for fire types, it could have it's uses
 
Amidst all this heavy discussion about sleep ban, lemme show you a GOAT!



Gogoat @ Grassium Z
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 168 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Milk Drink
- Leaf Blade
- Double-Edge

This mountain goat looks so adorable and cute, and behind it's cuteness is hidden a decent gimmick/monster. It has 123HP/100Atk/BulkUp/MilkDrink, a potent laughworthy-yet-good set right there. BulkUp setup helps against gyaradosM, and the EV's have gone into tanking Charged special GVH from Tapu Koko. Milk Drink helps against Mimikyu, while this also serves as a counter/check for greninja!

This is nowhere gonna be the next best thing since like Marshadow, when coupled with decent teammates like regirock/nihilego for fire types, it could have it's uses
Cool set, but why Double-Edge? Gogoat is not a Grass/Normal type, despite it's looks implying otherwise. Earthquake, Superpower or even Rock Slide are better options (at least Rock Slide can possibly kill Zard Y if your opponent gets cocky and clicks Solar Beam to style on you because they don't expect you to do anything bad to them).
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Expect a detailed post on sleep from me later this week.

Until then, tagging The Immortal because I'm really curious what you think about sleep in 1v1

also
Cool set, but why Double-Edge? Gogoat is not a Grass/Normal type, despite it's looks implying otherwise. Earthquake, Superpower or even Rock Slide are better options (at least Rock Slide can possibly kill Zard Y if your opponent gets cocky and clicks Solar Beam to style on you because they don't expect you to do anything bad to them).
I kinda agree with this, you could also consider running Horn Leech over Leaf Blade for recovery over damage
 
Sleep in 1v1


Snorlax used Yawn!
If you're a 1v1 player you probably fell victim to sleep shenanigans, used them yourself, or even both. Sleep is an unhealthy and competitive aspect of the metagame, not as much as accuracy-reducing moves but they are more used than the previously banned moves. In regular Smogon™ 6v6 gameplay, Sleep is limited by sleep clause and in 1v1 such clause isn't in effect since you only have one Pokemon on the field after Team Preview. Sleep allows you to neutralize the opponent for a turn or two (Three if lucky) giving you an opportunity to set up or directly attack and deal damage to the foe. What is more problematic is that the most common sleep move is Yawn which has 100% accuracy and when combined with protect guarantee sleep. Other moves such as Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are also used but not more than Yawn.

What are the common sleep abusers?

Yawn:


Sleep Powder:


Hypnosis:


As noticed these Pokemon aren't the most used nor the most ranked high by viability but that's because of Sleep. It is a double edged sword which forces many matchups into coinflips and who is the most lucky player. For example, Jumpluff, Mega Gengar and Snorlax are ranked where they are right now due to Sleep only. While Mega-Gengar has an unreliable sleep move it can still cheese out many victories such as against Dark-types notably Mega Gyarados thanks to its high speed Hypnosis. Jumpluff is also fast and is more reliable as Sleep Powder+Zoom Lens allows it to easily put foe to sleep and Leech Seed them. Meanwhile Yawn abusers only need a turn of yawn then protect to inflict the sleep.

What makes sleep unhealthy?

It's not a question of broken but uncompetitive and unhealthy. Sleep forces a lot of luck and coinflips which isn't a way we want to go in the 1v1 metagame. Most games that involve sleep are always based on who is the luckiest player. Will the sleep move connect? Will I get enough sleep turns? Having such aspect in the 1v1 metagame is not a good option and can flip games to the Sleep user easily. This is why I think Sleep moves should be banned from the 1v1 metagame alongside accuracy reducing moves.
i strongly disagree with a possible ban of sleep. status is one of the fundamentals of pokemon, and just banning a status just seems wrong to me. yes, sleep can be rng based but so is basically everything in pokemon.

the difference between sleep and something like accuracy reducing is that sleep isn't pure rng; there are strategic benefits to sleep. for example, a strategy that i like is yawn + focus punch emboar. after sleeping your opponent, you can throw out unprotected focus punches which are very strong. yes, emboar isn't the most relevant pokemon in the meta, however when people say that sleep is just pure rng they're just straight up wrong.

let's look at some relevant users. snorlax is arguably the best sleep user in the tier. snorlax. i really don't think this mon is /that/ good. it over relies on luck, 50/50s, and normal coverage. some people are lucky though and because of that think it's amazing. the next best user is jumpluff, which while i do love, has fundamental problems. it definetely over relies on hitting a sleep powder or two, and when you don't, you'll probably just straight up lose. most importantly though, jumpluff is stupidly easy to prepare for when building. your team really shouldn't lose to it, and if it does, it isn't a big deal because it has extremely low usage. lastly we have mega gengar, which basically needs to hit a sleeping move to win. however unlike jumpluff, its sleep move is extremely unreliable. yes it can win games it shouldn't, but so can basically every mon. i called it "stupid" in my video because of how risky it is to use.

tl;dr don't ban
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
The problem with Sleep is that you sacrifice 1 turn putting the opponent to sleep in hopes of getting the 2/3 chance that they stay asleep for longer than just the single guaranteed turn. It would be fine if Sleep users were more consistent like Breloom or Vivillon, since you know they aren't going to miss often, and Breloom in particular risks literally nothing with PH + Substitute, but in the real world, just about all "viable" sleep users only use the move praying for the chance of the opponent not waking up to be in their favor.

Most Sleep users often need just the single extra turn of sleep to guarantee victory. You know what else guarantees victory in 1v1 scenarios based off of RNG chances? OHKO moves. Now, let's keep in mind that OHKO moves are a 30% chance of hitting, and cannot be boosted in any ways other than No Guard and the opponent using mons lower than 100 in level. How likely is it to get that one extra turn with sleep? Well, it depends on the accuracy of the sleep move being used, but one thing is for sure, and it's that all sleep moves have a higher chance of hitting AND getting the extra 2/3 turn of sleep than OHKO moves have of hitting

Sleep Powder: 75% chance of hitting = 49.5% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Hypnosis: 60% chance of hitting = 39.6% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Sing/Grasswhistle: 55% chance of hitting = 36.3% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Dark Void: 50% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep #DoNOTUnbanDarkrai
E: Yawn: 100% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep (Factoring in the occasional 50/50 choice between using Protect or not, if no Protect use is required, then 66%)

I believe I've outlined the problem well enough. If anyone can prove that relevant sleep users require more than two turns of sleep for a majority of their relevant matchups, then I'd be happy to change sides.
 
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I originally had no qualms with the existence of sleep. That is, until the big boom in Snorlax usage happened, and I started to run into Jumpluff more and more. As DEG said, Sleep isn't necessarily broken: It's just extremely RNG-based, and throws skill out the window. While Mega Gengar and Jumpluff have incredible speed tiers, Snorlax and Mega Swampert easily have enough bulk to tank a hit, Yawn, and then Protect. Meanwhile, unless you outspeed, you just need to pray that you can wake up before Jumpluff starts Leech Seeding, because if you don't wake up right on the turn it Substitutes, you lose, good game. Also, the ONLY thing that hard-counters Snorlax are Ghost and Fighting types. What's that? Think Mega Metagross, Mawile and Aggron can beat it?

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 498-587 (163.8 - 193%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 394-465 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 424-500 (116.4 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 322-381 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 259-306 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 269-317 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But you'll wake up before Snorlax can use Belly Drum + Breakneck Blitz, right? Maybe, but there's also a decent chance you won't wake up in time. And this is why sleep is ridiculous. It turns so many match-ups into dice rolls. There is absolutely no way in hell, in any universe, in any timeline, that Jumpluff should be able to beat Kyurem-Black. But because of it's trademark moveset of Leech Seed + Sub + Protect + Sleep Powder, there is a good chance for it to actually beat down non-scarf variants. Smeargle is a piece of shit, but due to Spore, it can actually carve out a niche. A gimmicky and stupid niche that nobody beyond the 1200s would ever use unironically, but a niche nonetheless.

Thanks so much for speaking about this. I've heard some veiled whispers about this idea in the 1v1 chat room, and I've wanted to talk about it myself, but thee fear of being absolutely blasted overcame me. But now that we got a big boy in this community like you bringing this up, I gained the confidence to finally speak my opinion. Get rid of sleep! It's very not cool!

Edit: Woops, forgot about fighting types. kek
  • All your calcs are wrong again. Sorry bro.
  • No one runs those EVs, aside from 252+ attack Mawile.
  • You have to z-Belly Drum usually.
  • The only thing that hard-counters Gyara is Tapu Koko and the only thing that hard-counters Kyu-B is clicking x.
  • We can go over all the counters to these mons if we need to, including the actual chances they have of winning.
  • Jumpluff is irrelevant because Whimsicott in gen 6 did the same thing except it didn't have a 17%* chance of losing matchups it won.


Expect a detailed post on sleep from me later this week.

Until then, tagging The Immortal because I'm really curious what you think about sleep in 1v1

also

I kinda agree with this, you could also consider running Horn Leech over Leaf Blade for recovery over damage

********************************************

  • If you hate sleep, just ban Snorlax tbh. It's the only Pokémon that got better in gen7. The rest of these mons were all fine in gen 6 apparently. Nothing's changed about them.
  • You could ban Gengar too if you wanted though. I don't like it.
  • Jirachi is way more uncompetitive than sleep. There is counter play to sleep other than "wake up". There really isn't any counter play to Jirachi other than "don't get flinched".
  • Ignore Mega-Venusaur at your peril.
*It's actually slightly higher.

#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
 
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Here's a philosophy of mine regarding hax in general: If the hax-inducer (ie Jirachi or Mega Gengar) can frequently cause the opponent to lose in situations where the opposition had the odds in their favor, that's unhealthy. If, in contrast, the hax-inducer frequently loses, but rarely can hax their way out of a situation, then the hax-inducer is perfectly fine, because by using it they are essentially accepting that they will lose some matches to hax. When you face the hax-inducer, however, you never agreed to lose x% of your matches to hax, making it unfair.

In the context of sleep it can be summed up to this: most sleep users don't rely on hax to win against most opponents and just the opposite, frequently lose because of poor sleep rolls or misses. Sure, there's counterexamples, but to take away such a useful tool for many pokemon because of a relatively small amount of interactions isn't worth it.

One other thing to think about is probability management. Take for example the case of running Air Slash on Charizard Y. Sure, there really isn't anything that it's explicitly useful against, but a 30% flinch chance is damn nifty. It let's Charizard take on sturdy users and other miscellaneous pokemon 30% of the time, every time. Is this balanced? No. Is there anything we can do about it? Yes and no. Complex bans (ie banning Air Slash when used on Charizard Y as opposed to banning either one as a whole) are impractical. Banning the move Air Slash, for example is also impractical for obvious reasons. However, there are certain moves/items that are used exclusively for probability management: Bright Powder, Lax Incense, Hypnosis, Sing, Grass Whistle and Dark Void. Allow me to elaborate: As Glyx calculated, when you use any sleep moves below the accuracy of Sleep Powder, the odds of you getting the 2 turns of sleep you need drop to pretty nasty rates. As such, the user of such moves doesn't get anything aside from a 40% GXE from relying on these moves to win, making them useless in serious competitive play outside of the context of probability management, in which they are effective but unhealthy. With Bright Powder and Lax Incense it should be obvious the only possible use for them is to try to win you should have lost (looking at you, Cottonee). Although Sleep Powder technically has a below 50% chance to work there too, this is bolstered up by Wide Lens and Substitute in the case of its most notable user, Jumpluff.

This seems kind of wacky banning the less viable moves, but it makes sense in essence: the only potential use for them is probability management, unlike Sleep Powder and Yawn which have serious competitive use. So here's my final proposal: Ban Hypnosis, Sing, Grass Whistle, Dark Void, Bright Powder and Lax Incense.

I would also like to bring up Jirachi briefly. A good player should not be relying on 60% flinches to win games considering that a good GXE is around 70%. This means that when talking about whether or not Jirachi is good, we should only include matches where it doesn't need flinches to win. Taking this into account, Jirachi is legitimately simply outclassed by several of 1v1s premier steel types such as Genesect and Mega Metagross. Now that we have it established that we lose nothing from banning Jirachi, let's talk about whether or not it has a negative impact on the metagame... Simple answer: Yes. Verbose answer: Yes, Jirachi does indeed have a negative impact upon the game of metas established within Smogon on PS! known as 1v1. With this we can conclude that Jirachi is uncompetitive. Sorry UOP's CM Jirachi. RIP
 
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Hi, this is your favorite Attidude/WrathOfAlakazam back with a post on the ongoing topic of discussion-sleep.

Sleep has been a very widely-used, and narrow-minded, strategy ,which recently saw a boom in usage. This is possibly because of the sleep-abusing mons themselves which are capable of either bulking an attack and then yawning+protect/endure (Emboar,Empoleon, Relicanth and Snorlax), or being fast enough to outspeed a vast majority of the used metamons and put them
to sleep(GengarM, Jumpluff) . This puts team-building at a stall, wherein teams are forced to have either a bulky Magic Bouncer like SableyeM to counter sleep, or a fast sweeper like Pheromosa to sweep out the sleep-abusing. Either that, or teams are forced to have suboptimal sets like Taunt GyaradosM and sub charizardM-X/Y. As presented above, this reduces the meta to the usage of not-so-efficient strategies to counter a particular way of gameplay.

Many people in the opposite side of the argument says that "It is a particular style of gameplay", "Adapt to it", "Have counterplays" and the like. I'd like to point to other concepts that's been banned from the meta-PerishSong, Accuracy Reducing, Evasion Moves. These also had counterplays, could be dealt with, had suboptimal yet reliable checks. But they were banned, and the reasoning was that: they have become overcentralising, have very few, actually not suboptimal counters and were unhealthy for the meta. I see no reason why sleep doesn't fit into these categories.


So, keeping all this mind, I call for a curtain ban on all sleep inducing moves. And I change my stance here from my previous post, and say that even Relic song should be banned, because I realised just because there is only a 20% of putting they opponent to sleep doesn't mean that it shouldn't go.

The problem with Sleep is that you sacrifice 1 turn putting the opponent to sleep in hopes of getting the 2/3 chance that they stay asleep for longer than just the single guaranteed turn. It would be fine if Sleep users were more consistent like Breloom or Vivillon, since you know they aren't going to miss often, and Breloom in particular risks literally nothing with PH + Substitute, but in the real world, just about all "viable" sleep users only use the move praying for the chance of the opponent not waking up to be in their favor.

Most Sleep users often need just the single extra turn of sleep to guarantee victory. You know what else guarantees victory in 1v1 scenarios based off of RNG chances? OHKO moves. Now, let's keep in mind that OHKO moves are a 30% chance of hitting, and cannot be boosted in any ways other than No Guard and the opponent using mons lower than 100 in level. How likely is it to get that one extra turn with sleep? Well, it depends on the accuracy of the sleep move being used, but one thing is for sure, and it's that all sleep moves have a higher chance of hitting AND getting the extra 2/3 turn of sleep than OHKO moves have of hitting

Sleep Powder: 75% chance of hitting = 49.5% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Hypnosis: 60% chance of hitting = 39.6% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Sing/Grasswhistle: 55% chance of hitting = 36.3% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Dark Void: 50% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep #DoNOTUnbanDarkrai
E: Yawn: 100% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep (Factoring in the occasional 50/50 choice between using Protect or not, if no Protect use is required, then 66%)

I believe I've outlined the problem well enough. If anyone can prove that relevant sleep users require more than two turns of sleep for a majority of their relevant matchups, then I'd be happy to change sides.
Glyx, OHKO moves are unaffected by No Guard

Cool set, but why Double-Edge? Gogoat is not a Grass/Normal type, despite it's looks implying otherwise. Earthquake, Superpower or even Rock Slide are better options (at least Rock Slide can possibly kill Zard Y if your opponent gets cocky and clicks Solar Beam to style on you because they don't expect you to do anything bad to them).
Ah, thanks for pointing that out, I was legit thinking it was grass/normal. Now I have EQ on it

I kinda agree with this, you could also consider running Horn Leech over Leaf Blade for recovery over damage
I have Milk Drink for HP-restoration. I have leaf blade for a) high crit ratio and b) higher ZMove power
 
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I'm against banning sleep. It's a core mechanic of the game, it's got plenty of workarounds, and RNG does not make a game uncompetitive.

Workarounds: Taunt (ex. Mawile, Gyarados, Heatran, etc etc), Substitute (nearly any pokemon), Uproar (Porygon-Z, Meloetta), Electric Terrain (Tapu Koko), Magic Bounce (Mega Sableye), Vital Spirit (Magmortar, Vigoroth), Grass Types (though only vs Sleep Powder/Spore), Z-Moves (which don't technically prevent sleep but do break Protect, shutting down stuff like Yawn Relicanth and ruining the day of any other low-HP Yawn/Protect pokemon), and last but most certainly not least: Hitting the damn Pokemon about to put you to sleep with a move that KOs it. If sleep is a win condition, you still need to meet yours before your opponent meets theirs. Not one of these terrifying sleep pokemon is without its own specific counters based on typing, stats, and movepool (not even Snorlax!).

Also, if we're talking about sleep it's worth adding Mega Venusaur, Mega Gardevoir, Breloom, and Smeargle to the pool of conversation. Venusaur makes good use of Sleep Powder especially on its more offensive sets, Mega Gardevoir frequently relies on Hypnosis same as Gengar, Breloom is a Spore SubPunch machine, and Smeargle's primary strategy is sleep > Imprison > Transform. Even if these pokemon aren't "The Problem," they're still impacted by this decision.

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hypnosis

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed


Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb

You but less tired (Smeargle) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Imprison
- Transform
- Lovely Kiss

~~~

Here are some bonus sets of sleep Pokemon that don't use their sleep move, because they simply don't need it to be viable.


Snorlax @ Wiki Berry (or any pinch berry)
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 100 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
- Amnesia
- Seismic Toss
- Recycle
- Counter

Special Wall Snorlax with Counter. Beats nearly every single special mon better than Yawn/Protect ever could. Tapu Koko isn't even a threat, and you can invest enough Defense to tank boosted moves from Gyarados and Charizard X that you can force out via Stoss.


Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 Def
Adamant Nature
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Earthquake
- Waterfall

CounterCoat Mega Swampert may lose to Zard Y unlike its Rindo Berry-loving brothers, but it's got significantly more offensive pressure alongside a higher Defense stat comparatively. This helps it take on physical attackers unable to hit it super effectively, and it gives you an option to smack Fire, Steel, and Rock types which are everywhere in 1v1.


Relicanth @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt / Rock Slide

What's Taunt? I like to hit things, hard. Also I won't die before I hit you, even from a 4x super effective move.


Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Hex
- Counter

RIP physical attackers that think they tank a shadow ball and KO. This set also demolishes stallmons in addition to anything physically weaker than Zard X. It even tanks Adamant Mega Gyarados Crunch or Earthquake.

Who needs sleep anyway?
*cries*
 
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Sleep has been a very widely-used, and narrow-minded, strategy ,which recently saw a boom in usage.
Sleep is narrow-minded? WTH does that even mean???
This puts team-building at a stall, wherein teams are forced to have either a bulky Magic Bouncer like SableyeM to counter sleep, or a fast sweeper like Pheromosa to sweep out the sleep-abusing.
Yes, the age-old mandate of having either Magic Bounce or 130+ base speed to counter sleep. The thing is that every sleep user has a distinct niche, and with the exception of Jumpluff, none of them rely solely on their sleep moves, and because of this, they all have different checks and counters. When I go about team building, never have I ever thought to myself "now I need my dedicated sleep counter." What I have said is "now I need my Snorlax counter" or "now I need my Jumpluff counter." The individual users of the move are what we should be focusing on. Also Pheromosa can't beat even half of sleep users.
Either that, or teams are forced to have suboptimal sets like Taunt GyaradosM and sub charizardM-X/Y. As presented above, this reduces the meta to the usage of not-so-efficient strategies to counter a particular way of gameplay.
As I showed above, we should be focusing on the individual users of the move, not sleep in general (Taunt Gyarados can't beat Mega Venusaur, Sub Charizard X loses to Relicanth, etc). Besides, Taunt Mega Gyarados and Sub Charizard aren't even suboptimal sets and are used to beat more than sleep (Chansey, Celesteela [Gyarados] and dodging recharge moves [Charizard]).

You pretty much assumed that sleep was broken intrinsically, immediately coming to that conclusion after showing some examples of sleep users. This is both a logical fallacy and an ineffective argument.
 
Sleep is narrow-minded? WTH does that even mean???

Yes, the age-old mandate of having either Magic Bounce or 130+ base speed to counter sleep. The thing is that every sleep user has a distinct niche, and with the exception of Jumpluff, none of them rely solely on their sleep moves, and because of this, they all have different checks and counters. When I go about team building, never have I ever thought to myself "now I need my dedicated sleep counter." What I have said is "now I need my Snorlax counter" or "now I need my Jumpluff counter." The individual users of the move are what we should be focusing on. Also Pheromosa can't beat even half of sleep users.

As I showed above, we should be focusing on the individual users of the move, not sleep in general (Taunt Gyarados can't beat Mega Venusaur, Sub Charizard X loses to Relicanth, etc). Besides, Taunt Mega Gyarados and Sub Charizard aren't even suboptimal sets and are used to beat more than sleep (Chansey, Celesteela [Gyarados] and dodging recharge moves [Charizard]).

You pretty much assumed that sleep was broken intrinsically, immediately coming to that conclusion after showing some examples of sleep users. This is both a logical fallacy and an ineffective argument.
The narrow-minded was just me letting off steam in my grudge against sleep.

The "we should be focusing on the individual users of the move, not sleep in general " is where I'd like to fundamentally differ, because all the previously banned concepts like accuracy reduction and evasion were not banned because the individual users like, say, X or G ,got really strong with it, but rather the fact that the whole idea crippled team building and narrowed down the spectrum of
mons and movesets to counteract the play.

That one from you seem to imply this: that there are x POKEMON which use sleep ,of which only 2-3 are relevant,so let's start analysing the amount of usage and the consequent threat they pose to the 1v1 meta, but tomorrow a new Mon using the sleep strat, arises which seems too OP for the meta, so let's analyse the new threat, try to rationalise whether the new threat poses a real threat in the ladder, and by that time ANOTHER new threat comes up....and so on. This will only result in wastage of time and effort.

What I suggest is to look into the sleep philosophy and fit it into the rational of the 1v1 metagame and decide whether the sleep strat, which is in question, affects the meta in a positive or a negative way! I say this because there are enough Pokemon learning any of the sleep-inducing moves, but only some's capabilities have been tapped while others haven't been exploited.

Sub Charizard is not suboptimal, error on my part, but Taunt Gyarados-Mega is definitely suboptimal;it loses coverage, since Gyarados runs only a limited number of coverage offense moves already, and taunt makes it lose crucial coverage .


Well, I could go on and on, taking every Mon which is capable of putting opponent into sleep, analysing it's relevance,presence and threat in the meta, and it would be just as effective as to use a few mons and extend the understanding. I instead opted to show some ,and use those examples to extend my proposal to others.

In conclusion, all I'm saying is, BAN SLEEP ASAP.
 
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Id say as a compromise for everyone if we cant settle down on anythign concrete we should instead of banning or leaving it consider the possibility of just suspecting Sleepmoves in general and let the people decide . this bears tho the risk of certain good players dominating the vote over the other normal players . but its somethign to keep in mind in my opinion ^^
 
Id say as a compromise for everyone if we cant settle down on anythign concrete we should instead of banning or leaving it consider the possibility of just suspecting Sleepmoves in general and let the people decide . this bears tho the risk of certain good players dominating the vote over the other normal players . but its somethign to keep in mind in my opinion ^^
i mean this is just me but i dont mind good players having weight over bad players
thats sorta exactly what suspect tests are supposed to do
 
The problem with Sleep is that you sacrifice 1 turn putting the opponent to sleep in hopes of getting the 2/3 chance that they stay asleep for longer than just the single guaranteed turn. It would be fine if Sleep users were more consistent like Breloom or Vivillon, since you know they aren't going to miss often, and Breloom in particular risks literally nothing with PH + Substitute, but in the real world, just about all "viable" sleep users only use the move praying for the chance of the opponent not waking up to be in their favor.

Most Sleep users often need just the single extra turn of sleep to guarantee victory. You know what else guarantees victory in 1v1 scenarios based off of RNG chances? OHKO moves. Now, let's keep in mind that OHKO moves are a 30% chance of hitting, and cannot be boosted in any ways other than No Guard and the opponent using mons lower than 100 in level. How likely is it to get that one extra turn with sleep? Well, it depends on the accuracy of the sleep move being used, but one thing is for sure, and it's that all sleep moves have a higher chance of hitting AND getting the extra 2/3 turn of sleep than OHKO moves have of hitting

Sleep Powder: 75% chance of hitting = 49.5% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Hypnosis: 60% chance of hitting = 39.6% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Sing/Grasswhistle: 55% chance of hitting = 36.3% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep
Dark Void: 50% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep #DoNOTUnbanDarkrai
E: Yawn: 100% chance of hitting = 33% chance of hitting + getting at least one extra turn of sleep (Factoring in the occasional 50/50 choice between using Protect or not, if no Protect use is required, then 66%)

I believe I've outlined the problem well enough. If anyone can prove that relevant sleep users require more than two turns of sleep for a majority of their relevant matchups, then I'd be happy to change sides.
Maybe I'm just a complete dunderhead, but how does this exactly prove that sleep is ok? Again, Sleep isn't OP, it's just completely RNG-based and turns matches into gambling sessions... Kinda like OHKO moves. If anything, the fact that you have a higher chance of beaning the opposing Pokemon with sleep than landing an OHKO move seems like a counter-argument against yourself.

Also, I don't agree with the whole "RNG is a part of Pokemon" argument.
  • Crits are the textbook definition of unreliable. They can grab cheese wins, but it's so infrequent that if it does happen, one just shakes their head and says "OK, whatever".
  • The only Pokemon that can rely purely on flinching to succeed is Jirachi, which most people already agree deserves a suspect.
  • There is basically only one relevant Thunder Wave user in the entire meta, being Mimikyu. And even then, less than 10% of Mimikyu users actually have Thunder Wave, even on high ladder. Besides, Thunder Wave only slows you down and has a chance to activate each turn, while sleep leaves you totally incapacitated for at least 1 turn. And in 1v1, 1 turn can make all the difference between a win and a loss.
And with that, I shall no longer bring this up. Let's just follow Blazikin's advice from now on and put sleep on the suspect chopping block along with Jirachi and Kyurem-Black.
 

Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
Maybe I'm just a complete dunderhead, but how does this exactly prove that sleep is ok? Again, Sleep isn't OP, it's just completely RNG-based and turns matches into gambling sessions... Kinda like OHKO moves. If anything, the fact that you have a higher chance of beaning the opposing Pokemon with sleep than landing an OHKO move seems like a counter-argument against yourself.
I was trying to prove that sleep is not ok-
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Regarding hax in 1v1 metagame.

1v1 is already a "luck-based" meta as others say, or in our definition, 1v1 is "match-up based" and "prediction-reliant" metagame. However, because the whole premise of the metagame itself is a literal 1v1, this means any sort of hax is going to have enough influence to dramatically change the outcome of the game regardless of the matchup. This includes, but are not limited to, incidents where Mega Charizard Y wins against Magnezone and Rock Tomb Donphan by flinching them with Air Slash, Durant missing Iron Head against Tapu Lele, or Kyurem-B uses Fusion Bolt on bulky Primarina and it critically strikes. Despite everyone is aware hax is very prevalent and arguably one of the most influential components in the 1v1 metagame, there are some hax that has to be removed for unique reasons:

  • Jirashit / Tokekkiss (Serene Grace Flinch Hax)



Jirachi already has been known for its infamy of turning 1v1 into a game of flinch hax, thanks to its ability to flinch foes with Iron Head and Heart Stamp with 60% chance. This often allows Jirachi to bypass its otherwise-would-lose opponents including both mega's of Charizard, Tyranitar, or even Steel-types like Magearna and Magnezone. This is what I would like to point about unhealthiness of Serene Grace in current metagame. Leaving game to become a gamble of consecutive coin flips clearly defeats the purpose of 1v1 metagame; one mostly decides the outcome of the match by sending a Pokemon that it would counter the one from the other team. This is where Jirachi users say "**** it, I will just send Jirachi because I am too lazy to predict and will leave the game to RNG", goes Jirachi, proceeds to cause flinches and simply win. 60% chance to flinch and win is proves to be a very ridiculous number considering most 1v1 players that I know usually have their GXE around 70-75%. In other words, one can guarantee at least decent number of wins just by mindlessly slapping Jirachi into their team even if the rest of their team has no preparations aganist Fire / Dark / Ground types or whatsoever, without attempting to actually do a rock-paper-scissor in the team preview and play mind games.

Now, why do I argue "A gameplay that refuses to follow what other people do" is unacceptable? Why do I say ban Serene Grace that sometimes has very poor chance to ever win?
First of all, as I have explained, Serene Grace + Flinch combination proves to be very uncompetitive way of winning. When it comes to thinking about what should be removed from 1v1 metagame, what is the first thing that comes to one's mind? Overpowered pokemon? Broken items? A while ago, DEG left us with rhetorical question about "What makes Kyurem-B more broken Tapu Koko / Lele / Mimikyu / Gyarados?"
Here is how I answered a question. I have emphasized the fact that aforementioned threats could stay in 1v1 because it is possible to make a viable counterplay against them. Now let's apply this philosophy to Serene Grace hax. No, you can't prevent a loss of hax by having a good typing or good bulk if RNG says "I will let Jirachi flinch them until Iron Head PP runs out." This strategy is not what should be considered as "broken" or "overpowered", but it is just an uncompetitive strategy that just leaves both players' ladders in a destiny where RNG will decide the outcome while neither of the players can particularly do anything to change the outcome of the russian roulette game they are in.




Togekiss is nothing different. Just because it has low Speed does not mean it is unable to abuse Air Slash + Serene Grace shenanigans. It rather has better offensive typing and stat, and actually needs less number of flinches to take down its opponent. tldr: Jirachi V.2.0


  • Sleep always 3 turns
Apparently we were dividing this into two different sections:
  • Yawn
To be brutally honest, I don't believe Yawn is an issue for any reason. I am not saying Yawn lacks uncompetitive aspect. I will keep the reason simple. Yawn forces the user to run Yawn + Protect at the same time, and this makes the movepool very, very one-dimentional. Have you all realized Snoarlax can't even touch a Ghost because it needs Yawn to induce sleep, Protect to block Z-move or the second hit, Belly Drum to do an actual damage, and Return / Double-Edge to make an attack? Or have you all realized Mega Swampert needs Yawn and Protect for the same reason and is able to choose only 2 of Waterfall / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Rock Tomb / other utility moves. This gives Yawn users a serious issue of being very predictable. However, I won't be surprised collateral damage was dealt to Yawn users if we end up entirely banning Sleep because sleep induced from Yawn can still be uncompetitive at times.

  • Other sleep-inducing factors


These 'mons are jokes to deal with if they don't hit Sleep Powder / Hypnosis. Gardevoir might be an exception but it will lose to every single Sturdy user or any physical attacker with Z-move if it misses Hypnosis or gets 1 turn sleep. I will just fold my arguments for now because I will come back later for this as the wifi is gonna shut down in 40 seconds.

--

This is what I think about hax in 1v1, and probably this might lead possibly end up being a volatile or possibly toxic discussion (if uninformed users make logical fallacies) because majority of these issues were known to most players and we have very diverse perspectives on them. I hope all of us reach logical conclusion because people decided to ignore my post about Kyurem-B being more broken than others and moved onto calc stuff if this is being discussed before Kyurem-B, it must be a serious matter.
 
Can we please leave Gardevoir-Mega out of sleep discussion? Many of its best sets certainly do not run Hypnosis, whereas sleep is at least a common move on pokemon like Venusaur-Mega, Breloom, and Gengar-Mega. It is, if I compare it to a previous post, running Air Cutter on Charizard-Mega-Y, where as Air Cutter hits stupid Blazikens, has a high crit ratio, and may turn a Counter Coat matchup in your favor, while Hypnosis hits uh Mawile-Mega? then you 2HKO with HP Fire? It is better off with Will-O-Wisp and defense to take on what it needs to take on.
As with your Kyurem-Black post, it was slightly off. The Tapu Lele EVs were pretty bad and completely disregarded Z-Psychic. Mimikyu is certainly not the first thing we think of as Kyurem-Black check, and I have listed a lot *better ones, besides a water type immune to Fusion Bolt?
 
I was trying to prove that sleep is not ok-
Woops. I got confused for a second because of the last sentence and the fact all the anti-ban people liked your post. Oh well.

Regarding hax in 1v1 metagame.






Togekiss is nothing different. Just because it has low Speed does not mean it is unable to abuse Air Slash + Serene Grace shenanigans. It rather has better offensive typing and stat, and actually needs less number of flinches to take down its opponent. tldr: Jirachi V.2.0
OH MY GOD. THANK. YOU!!! Everybody wants to suspect Jirachi, and I agree with them 100%. But too many people seem to be forgetting about this fucker. In my honest opinion, if Jirachi is banned but Togekiss isn't, everyone's gonna go right ahead and use Scarf Togekiss while still seeing just as much success. After all, while slightly slower, Scarf Togekiss still outspeeds everything bar Deoxys-Speed and (I think?) Pheromosa, who can't KO it with anything, and gets wiped out by Air Slash. It can even get past Steel types by running Fire Blast/Flamethrower and hoping for lucky burns! I hope that Jirachi and Togekiss are suspected side-by-side, since they both have the same problem of uncompetitive flinch garbage.
 
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Togekiss is nothing different. Just because it has low Speed does not mean it is unable to abuse Air Slash + Serene Grace shenanigans. It rather has better offensive typing and stat, and actually needs less number of flinches to take down its opponent. tldr: Jirachi V.2.0


  • Sleep always 3 turns
Apparently we were dividing this into two different sections:
  • Yawn
To be brutally honest, I don't believe Yawn is an issue for any reason. I am not saying Yawn lacks uncompetitive aspect. I will keep the reason simple. Yawn forces the user to run Yawn + Protect at the same time, and this makes the movepool very, very one-dimentional. Have you all realized Snoarlax can't even touch a Ghost because it needs Yawn to induce sleep, Protect to block Z-move or the second hit, Belly Drum to do an actual damage, and Return / Double-Edge to make an attack? Or have you all realized Mega Swampert needs Yawn and Protect for the same reason and is able to choose only 2 of Waterfall / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Rock Tomb / other utility moves. This gives Yawn users a serious issue of being very predictable. However, I won't be surprised collateral damage was dealt to Yawn users if we end up entirely banning Sleep because sleep induced from Yawn can still be uncompetitive at times.
Ban Jirachi? Hell yes. Ban Togekiss? I'd rather not.

In the absence of Jirachi, might Togekiss run scarf? Yes, and if this turns out to be as problematic as Jirachi, then we can ban it. My point is that we can't tell at this point whether or not Togekiss would become a problem without Jirachi, so let's take it step-by-step and stick with Jirachi for now.

Let's fast-forwards: Jirachi is now banned, Scarf Togekiss begins its reign of terror. We'll go under the assumption that Togekiss does end up being broken (which I doubt it will) for the purposes of this argument. When we banned Jirachi, we had nothing to lose: except for the flinch hax, Jirachi was outclassed by Mega Metagross and Genesect. If we were to ban Togekiss, however, we would have something to lose. Afterall, Togekiss has great sets like Z-Charm that don't rely on flinch hax which is in stark contrast to Jirachi. At this point, we ultimately have to decide whether it's more important to get rid of Togekiss' negative impact or maintain its positive influence. As I said before, though, we can't judge this yet. Let's get rid of Jirachi, and then decide what to do with Togekiss.
After all, while slightly slower, Scarf Togekiss still outspeeds everything bar Deoxys-Speed and (I think?) Pheromosa, who can't KO it with anything, and gets wiped out by Air Slash. It can even get past Steel types by running Fire Blast/Flamethrower and hoping for lucky burns! I hope that Jirachi and Togekiss are suspected side-by-side, since they both have the same problem of uncompetitive flinch garbage.
Nope, Scarf Togekiss' speed tier actually falls just short of Mega Beedrill. It's also vulnerable to mid-speed-tiered scarfers like Kyurem-B that Jirachi outspeeds. Lucky burns? Magearna, Mawile and Mega Metagross all don't care.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega [Iron Head+Sucker Punch] vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 295-347 (94.8 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 380-450 (122.1 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross-Mega [Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch] vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 313-369 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yay 300 n_n
 
Woops. I got confused for a second because of the last sentence and the fact all the anti-ban people liked your post. Oh well.



OH MY GOD. THANK. YOU!!! Everybody wants to suspect Jirachi, and I agree with them 100%. But too many people seem to be forgetting about this fucker. In my honest opinion, if Jirachi is banned but Togekiss isn't, everyone's gonna go right ahead and use Scarf Togekiss while still seeing just as much success. After all, while slightly slower, Scarf Togekiss still outspeeds everything bar Deoxys-Speed and (I think?) Pheromosa, who can't KO it with anything, and gets wiped out by Air Slash. It can even get past Steel types by running Fire Blast/Flamethrower and hoping for lucky burns! I hope that Jirachi and Togekiss are suspected side-by-side, since they both have the same problem of uncompetitive flinch garbage.
Don't ignore Poisonium-Z Pheromosa.There are people who really hate the tapus out there
 
Regarding hax in 1v1 metagame.

1v1 is already a "luck-based" meta as others say, or in our definition, 1v1 is "match-up based" and "prediction-reliant" metagame. However, because the whole premise of the metagame itself is a literal 1v1, this means any sort of hax is going to have enough influence to dramatically change the outcome of the game regardless of the matchup. This includes, but are not limited to, incidents where Mega Charizard Y wins against Magnezone and Rock Tomb Donphan by flinching them with Air Slash, Durant missing Iron Head against Tapu Lele, or Kyurem-B uses Fusion Bolt on bulky Primarina and it critically strikes. Despite everyone is aware hax is very prevalent and arguably one of the most influential components in the 1v1 metagame, there are some hax that has to be removed for unique reasons:

  • Jirashit / Tokekkiss (Serene Grace Flinch Hax)



Jirachi already has been known for its infamy of turning 1v1 into a game of flinch hax, thanks to its ability to flinch foes with Iron Head and Heart Stamp with 60% chance. This often allows Jirachi to bypass its otherwise-would-lose opponents including both mega's of Charizard, Tyranitar, or even Steel-types like Magearna and Magnezone. This is what I would like to point about unhealthiness of Serene Grace in current metagame. Leaving game to become a gamble of consecutive coin flips clearly defeats the purpose of 1v1 metagame; one mostly decides the outcome of the match by sending a Pokemon that it would counter the one from the other team. This is where Jirachi users say "**** it, I will just send Jirachi because I am too lazy to predict and will leave the game to RNG", goes Jirachi, proceeds to cause flinches and simply win. 60% chance to flinch and win is proves to be a very ridiculous number considering most 1v1 players that I know usually have their GXE around 70-75%. In other words, one can guarantee at least decent number of wins just by mindlessly slapping Jirachi into their team even if the rest of their team has no preparations aganist Fire / Dark / Ground types or whatsoever, without attempting to actually do a rock-paper-scissor in the team preview and play mind games.

Now, why do I argue "A gameplay that refuses to follow what other people do" is unacceptable? Why do I say ban Serene Grace that sometimes has very poor chance to ever win?
First of all, as I have explained, Serene Grace + Flinch combination proves to be very uncompetitive way of winning. When it comes to thinking about what should be removed from 1v1 metagame, what is the first thing that comes to one's mind? Overpowered pokemon? Broken items? A while ago, DEG left us with rhetorical question about "What makes Kyurem-B more broken Tapu Koko / Lele / Mimikyu / Gyarados?"
Here is how I answered a question. I have emphasized the fact that aforementioned threats could stay in 1v1 because it is possible to make a viable counterplay against them. Now let's apply this philosophy to Serene Grace hax. No, you can't prevent a loss of hax by having a good typing or good bulk if RNG says "I will let Jirachi flinch them until Iron Head PP runs out." This strategy is not what should be considered as "broken" or "overpowered", but it is just an uncompetitive strategy that just leaves both players' ladders in a destiny where RNG will decide the outcome while neither of the players can particularly do anything to change the outcome of the russian roulette game they are in.




Togekiss is nothing different. Just because it has low Speed does not mean it is unable to abuse Air Slash + Serene Grace shenanigans. It rather has better offensive typing and stat, and actually needs less number of flinches to take down its opponent. tldr: Jirachi V.2.0


  • Sleep always 3 turns
Apparently we were dividing this into two different sections:
  • Yawn
To be brutally honest, I don't believe Yawn is an issue for any reason. I am not saying Yawn lacks uncompetitive aspect. I will keep the reason simple. Yawn forces the user to run Yawn + Protect at the same time, and this makes the movepool very, very one-dimentional. Have you all realized Snoarlax can't even touch a Ghost because it needs Yawn to induce sleep, Protect to block Z-move or the second hit, Belly Drum to do an actual damage, and Return / Double-Edge to make an attack? Or have you all realized Mega Swampert needs Yawn and Protect for the same reason and is able to choose only 2 of Waterfall / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Rock Tomb / other utility moves. This gives Yawn users a serious issue of being very predictable. However, I won't be surprised collateral damage was dealt to Yawn users if we end up entirely banning Sleep because sleep induced from Yawn can still be uncompetitive at times.

  • Other sleep-inducing factors


These 'mons are jokes to deal with if they don't hit Sleep Powder / Hypnosis. Gardevoir might be an exception but it will lose to every single Sturdy user or any physical attacker with Z-move if it misses Hypnosis or gets 1 turn sleep. I will just fold my arguments for now because I will come back later for this as the wifi is gonna shut down in 40 seconds.

--

This is what I think about hax in 1v1, and probably this might lead possibly end up being a volatile or possibly toxic discussion (if uninformed users make logical fallacies) because majority of these issues were known to most players and we have very diverse perspectives on them. I hope all of us reach logical conclusion because people decided to ignore my post about Kyurem-B being more broken than others and moved onto calc stuff if this is being discussed before Kyurem-B, it must be a serious matter.


Wait, Jumpluff, just a bad version of whimsicott, and Gengar, just a bad version of Jumpluff, are the problem? Snorlax is the only actually good user of sleep lol. And it needs hax vs a bunch of Pokémon. (We can list these if that is necessary.) Isn't that what everyone hates about sleep? The hax aspect? That is Snorlax 100%. Haxing mons with sleep. Guessing on 50/50s.


I think you guys need to take a step back and realize you should've banned whimsicott for being uncompetitive in gen 6. Jumpluff wasn't used in gen 6 because Whimsicott was better in pretty much every way. Who even uses Jumpluff? Me, Partys Over, Landon every once in a while? You feel better losing to me when I hit you with Will-o-Wisp with Mega-Sableye than when I hit Sleep powder with Jumpluff? It's the same odds, basically.

But, how can you ban snorlax when literally only two people use it to any amount of success? Do you just not want Downcoming3 to win the Ladder Tour? Fertile Crescent might just quit 1v1 lol.

Ban Jirachi? Hell yes. Ban Togekiss? I'd rather not.

In the absence of Jirachi, might Togekiss run scarf? Yes, and if this turns out to be as problematic as Jirachi, then we can ban it. My point is that we can't tell at this point whether or not Togekiss would become a problem without Jirachi, so let's take it step-by-step and stick with Jirachi for now.

Let's fast-forwards: Jirachi is now banned, Scarf Togekiss begins its reign of terror. We'll go under the assumption that Togekiss does end up being broken (which I doubt it will) for the purposes of this argument. When we banned Jirachi, we had nothing to lose: except for the flinch hax, Jirachi was outclassed by Mega Metagross and Genesect. If we were to ban Togekiss, however, we would have something to lose. Afterall, Togekiss has great sets like Z-Charm that don't rely on flinch hax which is in stark contrast to Jirachi. At this point, we ultimately have to decide whether it's more important to get rid of Togekiss' negative impact or maintain its positive influence. As I said before, though, we can't judge this yet. Let's get rid of Jirachi, and then decide what to do with Togekiss.

Nope, Scarf Togekiss' speed tier actually falls just short of Mega Beedrill. It's also vulnerable to mid-speed-tiered scarfers like Kyurem-B that Jirachi outspeeds. Lucky burns? Magearna, Mawile and Mega Metagross all don't care.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega [Iron Head+Sucker Punch] vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 295-347 (94.8 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 380-450 (122.1 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross-Mega [Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch] vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 313-369 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yay 300 n_n
People run most of the good Pokémon, and a lot of the bad ones. People are not running scarf togekiss because scarf jirachi is too good. They don't run it because you lose a lot of games when you run it. It kinda stinks, especially with the t-wave nerf.



Yo speaking of hax Bright powder and Lax Incense aren't banned. If I lose to brightpowder Whimsicott again I'm gonna be upset. I don't think sand veil is banned either.



Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect Type
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Stored Power

A lot of Pokémon resist their own type, so you change into their type, then boost up and ko them. Dragon and Ghost are super effective against themselves, but they beat you anyway. You could run Charm instead of Stored Power and Rest instead of Recover.



Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Make use of your base form's higher defenses. Against Mega-Lopunny, for example. You beat Kyu-B aside from Scarf carrying Iron Head. Always click sub vs Kyurem. There's some untapped potential I think. You could make it beat different mons if you wanted, like Mega-Venusaur or Mega-Gyara.

#FreeZygod
#BringBackDarkrai
 
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Wait, Jumpluff, just a bad version of whimsicott, and Gengar, just a bad version of Jumpluff, are the problem? Snorlax is the only actually good user of sleep lol. And it needs hax vs a bunch of Pokémon. (We can list these if that is necessary.) Isn't that what everyone hates about sleep? The hax aspect? That is Snorlax 100%. Haxing mons with sleep. Guessing on 50/50s.


I think you guys need to take a step back and realize you should've banned whimsicott for being uncompetitive in gen 6. Jumpluff wasn't used in gen 6 because Whimsicott was better in pretty much every way. Who even uses Jumpluff? Me, Partys Over, Landon every once in a while? You feel better losing to me when you I hit Will-o-Wisp with Mega-Sableye than when I hit Sleep powder with Jumpluff? It's the same odds, basically.

But, how can you ban snorlax when literally only two people use it to any amount of success? Do you just not want Downcoming3 to win the Ladder Tour? Fertile Crescent might just quit 1v1 lol.



People run most of the good Pokémon, and a lot of the bad ones. People are not running scarf togekiss because scarf jirachi is too good. They don't run it because you lose a lot of games when you run it. It kinda stinks, especially with the t-wave nerf.



Yo speaking of hax bright powder and lax incense aren't banned. If I lose to brightpowder Whimsicott again I'm gonna be upset.


Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect Type
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Stored Power

A lot of Pokémon resist their own type, so you change into their type, then boost up and ko them. Dragon and Ghost are super effective against themselves, but they beat you anyway. You could run Charm instead of Stored Power and Rest instead of Recover.



Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Make use of your base form's higher defenses. Against Mega-Lopunny, for example. You beat Kyu-B aside from Scarf carrying Iron Head. There's some untapped potential I think.

#FreeZygod
#BringBackDarkrai
Hi, this is your favourite Attidude/WrathOfAlakazam back with another post

You've hit the problem right about 15 trillion miles from its head. Being burnt by SableyeM or any other is much better than being put to sleep because you can setup still and finish or you can be a fire physical attacker which can't be burnt(neglecting water veil). But sleep is an entirely different ballgame where you could have sub to counter it and get infiltrated by jumpluff, or have taunt and get ZYawned by Snorlax, and be insanely fast and strong just to counter sleep, and be weak to the rest of the meta. And I'm not entirely sure about the "only 2 players use snorlax to great avail". Keep following the ladder to see how many fledgling low ladder, middle ladder and high ladder ppl use it to great effectiveness coz frankly, it's not rocket science! Yawn turn one+protect what so ever so still gives it a decent stab at winning,no matter who uses it to what degree of effectiveness, depending on hax. Then again, I'm not for banning Snorlax, only for banning sleep.

Regarding the diancieM, I'm surprised you haven't made a quirky(?) EV set involving it defeating gyaradosM like a thug lifer.

In a different note, though, even though evasion and accuracy reduction clauses are in effect, why are sand veil, snow cloak, bright powder and lax incense still allowed? Please ban these too!! :D
 

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Wait, Jumpluff, just a bad version of whimsicott, and Gengar, just a bad version of Jumpluff, are the problem? Snorlax is the only actually good user of sleep lol. And it needs hax vs a bunch of Pokémon. (We can list these if that is necessary.) Isn't that what everyone hates about sleep? The hax aspect? That is Snorlax 100%. Haxing mons with sleep. Guessing on 50/50s.


I think you guys need to take a step back and realize you should've banned whimsicott for being uncompetitive in gen 6. Jumpluff wasn't used in gen 6 because Whimsicott was better in pretty much every way. Who even uses Jumpluff? Me, Partys Over, Landon every once in a while? You feel better losing to me when I hit you with Will-o-Wisp with Mega-Sableye than when I hit Sleep powder with Jumpluff? It's the same odds, basically.

But, how can you ban snorlax when literally only two people use it to any amount of success? Do you just not want Downcoming3 to win the Ladder Tour? Fertile Crescent might just quit 1v1 lol.



People run most of the good Pokémon, and a lot of the bad ones. People are not running scarf togekiss because scarf jirachi is too good. They don't run it because you lose a lot of games when you run it. It kinda stinks, especially with the t-wave nerf.



Yo speaking of hax Bright powder and Lax Incense aren't banned. If I lose to brightpowder Whimsicott again I'm gonna be upset. I don't think sand veil is banned either.



Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect Type
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Stored Power

A lot of Pokémon resist their own type, so you change into their type, then boost up and ko them. Dragon and Ghost are super effective against themselves, but they beat you anyway. You could run Charm instead of Stored Power and Rest instead of Recover.



Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Make use of your base form's higher defenses. Against Mega-Lopunny, for example. You beat Kyu-B aside from Scarf carrying Iron Head. There's some untapped potential I think. You could make it beat different mons if you wanted, like Mega-Venusaur or Mega-Gyara.

#FreeZygod
#BringBackDarkrai
My man there's a difference between last generation and this generation. Some statements you mentioned are blind and aren't correct. No Jumpluff isn't a bad version of Whimsicott, and no Gengar isn't a bad version of Jumpluff. On another note, how can you even compare Gengar a special attacker to a sub seeder? There's 0 comparison to be made. Also, I'm pretty sure you're not serious about the Downcoming3 part lmao? Keeping Snorlax would be better for them if they want that so they can counter team? The problem isn't with a user nor the amount of usage it got. Deoxys-D had little usage, accuracy reducing moves had even less usage but that didn't stop them from being broken when used.

Let me tell you the difference between gen 6 and gen 7 that you mentioned since you haven't played gen 6. Generation 6 Whimsicott is much more worse than Generation 7 Whimsicott. First of all no one used Grass Whistle on Whimsicott and if they did it was only a 55% chance to hit which is worse than the moves we got right now, Hypnosis, Sleep Powder etc... This allowed many Pokemon, even if slower to hit Whimsicott with a move and try to OHKO it. Plus Choice Scarf was one of the most abundant item in the metagame because all these tactics of Rock Tomb+Z-moves didn't exist. Without Z-moves, Choice Scarf and Band will be the superior items. These options limited Whimsicott usage. At this moment, you also cannot say that Jumpluff is a worse Whimsicott it's in fact a better one since Whimsicott has been nerfed so much this generation. Dark-types being immune to Prankster, Fairy-typing being abundant so its checks are everywhere. On another hand, Jumpluff can abuse its Sleep move to stop opposing Z-moves, and super effective attacks then subbing turning this game to a whole coinflip. Also I don't think I can reply to the Gengar comparison cause idk it makes no sense at all.

Will-o-Wisp on Mega Sableye is different than any sleep moves, idk how you can compare both of these Status moves. Will-o-Wisp doesn't affect special attack, allows you to boost or to play normally whereas Sleep moves have limited counter play (Only being luck) and affects the Pokemon as a whole entity.
 
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