Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

Some of these checks/counters seem valid, but there are some things I don't like here I want to point out.

1. Porygon2 is D tier. I myself think it should be C at least, but the point is, you should not have to run something that crappy just to beat one Pokemon.

2. Gardevoir-Mega dies to Scarf Iron Head Kyurem-Black.

3. Mega Heracross requires a shit-ton of physical bulk to tank Adamant 252 Attack SS (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Heracross-Mega: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Arm Thrust Megacross fails to KO back, and Close Combat variants lose to UOP Bulky Icium. Since you are left with just 92 Attack EVs without a boosting nature, this also means that Mega Heracross' main niche, being it's immense wall-breaking potential, takes quite a cut. A similar situation goes for Keldeo, though not quite as bad.

4. Tapu Fini and Primarina fall to Banded Kyurem (252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 354-418 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

5. Ok, so bulky Mega Metagross wins. But what about speedy variants?

6. Not sure if these are used much, but Tapu Lele gets cucked by speedy Icium/Band. Also, Scarf Moonblast is not a guaranteed OHKO.

Everything else you listed, admittedly, does do well as a counter. But it's still slim pickings.

Porygon2 is not a crappy pokemon, just because it is not used as much, does not mean it is bad. It beats Charizard-Mega-X, Gyarados-Mega, Metagross-Mega, Mimikyu, Dragonite, and walls off many other pokemon that lack a super effective move.
Gardevoir-Mega obviously runs defense... I mean come up buddy, step it up; I have said about Gardevoir-Mega's bulk in a post before this one.
Keldeo can take a Fusion Bolt with relative ease.
I mentioned Heracross-Mega's weird bulk, well, when I mentioned his weird bulk. And weird it is, but to invest in 185 Attack is not as necessary. It is also the most popular spread.
I though that we did not want to talk about Banded/Specs Kyurem-Black, but if we are, then Tapu Fini and Primarina will lose, yes.
And to speak of speedy Icium Z and Band is just a waste of Kyurem-Black's potential. Tapu Lele will beat Kyurem-Black at least 88/100 times on a ladder. I also did not mention scarf Moonblast anywhere.
To add on, Metagross-Mega always runs bulk, to take on the not broken Tapu Koko.
There are at least 10 mons here. I do not think that is slim picking.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Porygon2 is not a crappy pokemon, just because it is not used as much, does not mean it is bad. It beats Charizard-Mega-X, Gyarados-Mega, Metagross-Mega, Mimikyu, Dragonite, and walls off many other pokemon that lack a super effective move.
Gardevoir-Mega obviously runs defense... I mean come up buddy, step it up; I have said about Gardevoir-Mega's bulk in a post before this one.
Keldeo can take a Fusion Bolt with relative ease.
I mentioned Heracross-Mega's weird bulk, well, when I mentioned his weird bulk. And weird it is, but to invest in 185 Attack is not as necessary. It is also the most popular spread.
I though that we did not want to talk about Banded/Specs Kyurem-Black, but if we are, then Tapu Fini and Primarina will lose, yes.
And to speak of speedy Icium Z and Band is just a waste of Kyurem-Black's potential. Tapu Lele will beat Kyurem-Black at least 88/100 times on a ladder. I also did not mention scarf Moonblast anywhere.
To add on, Metagross-Mega always runs bulk, to take on the not broken Tapu Koko.
There are at least 10 mons here. I do not think that is slim picking.

Since you're going off of ladder usage stats, I shall do the same.

Porygon2 - #121 in 1v1 | Usage: 0.39897% | Raw count: 1,070 | Weight: 0.629540706826

It doesn't matter if you think P2 sucks or if you think it's S+ tier. It's not used much at all, at least not now.

Mega Gardevoir Spreads:

Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 48.075% |
Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 7.524% |
Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 4.218% |
Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 3.902% |
Modest:248/0/0/236/24/0 3.474% |
Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 2.758% |
Other 30.049%

Defensive Mega Gardy isn't even recorded on it's own. It's in "Other". In other words, you will rarely, if ever see it.

Mega Heracross Spreads:

Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 35.112% |
Impish:248/0/108/0/152/0 5.385% |
Adamant:84/160/0/0/88/176 3.512% |
Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.423% |
Adamant:252/128/0/0/60/68 2.723% |
Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 2.681% |
Other 47.162%

Once again, the super bulky one that always beats Kyu-B is in Other. There is another set with Impish and slightly less defense EVs, but it's fairly uncommon. It being "the most popular set" is completely and entirely false. And besides, don't you find it slightly off-putting that you need to intentionally hamper a gigantic wallbreaker's main purpose just to beat one Pokemon?

Keldeo can take a Fusion Bolt with relative ease.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 292-344 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Nope.

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

Since you're going off of ladder usage stats, I shall do the same.

Porygon2 - #121 in 1v1 | Usage: 0.39897% | Raw count: 1,070 | Weight: 0.629540706826

It doesn't matter if you think P2 sucks or if you think it's S+ tier. It's not used much at all, at least not now.

Mega Gardevoir Spreads:

Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 48.075% |
Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 7.524% |
Modest:4/0/0/252/0/252 4.218% |
Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 3.902% |
Modest:248/0/0/236/24/0 3.474% |
Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252 2.758% |
Other 30.049%

Defensive Mega Gardy isn't even recorded on it's own. It's in "Other". In other words, you will rarely, if ever see it.

Mega Heracross Spreads:

Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 35.112% |
Impish:248/0/108/0/152/0 5.385% |
Adamant:84/160/0/0/88/176 3.512% |
Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.423% |
Adamant:252/128/0/0/60/68 2.723% |
Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 2.681% |
Other 47.162%

Once again, the super bulky one that always beats Kyu-B is in Other. There is another set with Impish and slightly less defense EVs, but it's fairly uncommon. It being "the most popular set" is completely and entirely false. And besides, don't you find it slightly off-putting that you need to intentionally hamper a gigantic wallbreaker's main purpose just to beat one Pokemon?




252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 292-344 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Nope.

Where did I mention usage stats? I said Heracross-Mega has its popular spread with that because everytime I ask for a Heracross-Mega, this has repeatedly shown up in a pokepast. It may have been an overstatement to the less competent players who just click "Fast Physical/Bulky Attacker." Heracross-Mega also doesn't lose anything from adding defenses. It helps it tank other physical attacks.
For one who made a Keldeo with defense, I would expect someone to add defense to that.
Porygon2 is still in your viability ranking spreadsheet, which is still wrong, so as long as it is considered there, it should be considered in match play as well.

Another thing. To someone who based a spreadsheet and a statistic off a set that also has no usage/in the "other" spreads(uop's spread), I don't think something should be dropped on a defensive Gardevoir-Mega set. You can use the fact that I said above that people just click, "Fast Mixed Scarf" on the button, but alas, if people know so much about Kyurem-Black, should they not know better? In fact they do! People now run some variant of 252/?/200+/?/?/? to deal with threats like Lopunny-Mega and Charizard-Mega-X.
Back to Gardevoir-Mega. It is not used often, because honestly there are subjectively better Kyurem-Black checks. So either Defensive Gardevoir-Mega stays on the list, which is a good set, or I can just add Jirachi to a list of Kyurem-Black checks. And Aegislash. And Blaziken-Mega. And Mawile-Mega.
Edit: a double mention might occur. I am on mobile and I apologize in advance.
Edit again: the main purpose of heracross-mega is to beat things that it can. it doesnt need a ton of attack to do so. gyarados-mega is an example.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Where did I mention usage stats? I said Heracross-Mega has its popular spread with that because everytime I ask for a Heracross-Mega, this has repeatedly shown up in a pokepast. It may have been an overstatement to the less competent players who just click "Fast Physical/Bulky Attacker." Heracross-Mega also doesn't lose anything from adding defenses. It helps it tank other physical attacks.
For one who made a Keldeo with defense, I would expect someone to add defense to that.
Porygon2 is still in your viability ranking spreadsheet, which is still wrong, so as long as it is considered there, it should be considered in match play as well.

Another thing. To someone who based a spreadsheet and a statistic off a set that also has no usage/in the "other" spreads(uop's spread), I don't think something should be dropped on a defensive Gardevoir-Mega set. You can use the fact that I said above that people just click, "Fast Mixed Scarf" on the button, but alas, if people know so much about Kyurem-Black, should they not know better? In fact they do! People now run some variant of 252/?/200+/?/?/? to deal with threats like Lopunny-Mega and Charizard-Mega-X.
Back to Gardevoir-Mega. It is not used often, because honestly there are subjectively better Kyurem-Black checks. So either Defensive Gardevoir-Mega stays on the list, which is a good set, or I can just add Jirachi to a list of Kyurem-Black checks. And Aegislash. And Blaziken-Mega. And Mawile-Mega.
Edit: a double mention might occur. I am on mobile and I apologize in advance.
Edit again: the main purpose of heracross-mega is to beat things that it can. it doesnt need a ton of attack to do so. gyarados-mega is an example.

Eh, some of the things you said here are true. Keldeo still does require a good amount of physical bulk to always beat Kyu-B, which is ridiculous, and a big testament to how constraining and omnipotent it is. Also, your line about Lele beating Kyu 88/100 times on ladder is what prompted me to use ladder stats and figures. Hope that cleared some things up. :]

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

Eh, some of the things you said here are true. Keldeo still does require a good amount of physical bulk to always beat Kyu-B, which is ridiculous, and a big testament to how constraining and omnipotent it is. Also, your line about Lele beating Kyu 88/100 times on ladder is what prompted me to use ladder stats and figures. Hope that cleared some things up. :]

I used 88/100 as a horrible estimated statistic, which is my fault. It was an estimate of how many times I have seen Tapu Lele OHKO with Shattered Psych vs how many times it has been flinched or not been killed with Z-Psychic.
This roll is solid enough. 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 150 Def Keldeo: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%)
Also Keldeo is also not a "good" mon by a strech, but it is just another mon that has a place in the meta deserving of a mention, as you have in your Keldeo showcase.
Final Conclusion because I believe this little discussion is probably nearing an end. Kyurem-Black, in its essence, has many checks. There are some natural mons who may take him on, and also some mons that require some bulk and are able to sacrifice it the same way Kyurem-Black may use bulk at times. Some mons may lose to severely outplaying them, but I minimized those to only Blaziken and Aegislash. With regards to Heracross-Mega, he still has 185 attack. I would agree if something like GuzzLORD, which needs 252/0/252+... had to run that to tank an Outrage, that that would be silly.

 

[Elo Bandit]

Are you tired of losing to Kyurem-Black? Do you want to praise helix and style on people?

Here's Omastar:

P R A I S E (Omastar) @ Waterium Z
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 104 HP / 200 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Ancient Power
- Ice Beam

It's like a Water type Volcarona that speeds up after taking a physical hit. And it can take a physical hit:

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 242-286 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 181-213 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just Shell Smash vs any physical attacker that isn't choice banded, then blow them away with Z-Hydro Pump (or Ice Beam if Garchomp/Dnite/etc). Ancient Power nails Kyurem, it can even KO the bulky spread at +2. If you don't want to worry about rolls, just use Weakness Policy or Rockium Z instead.

+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 428-506 (109.4 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-Black: 428-506 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+4 252+ SpA Omastar Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem-Black: 458-540 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Continental Crush (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyurem-Black: 608-716 (133.9 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

204 speed lets you outpace Scarfed 252+ speed Kyurem-B after Weak Armor and Shell Smash. Moveslot alternatives include Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire/Grass, Stone Edge, Surf, and Hyper Beam.

People were asking so, here it is.

 

[Elo Bandit]

No one's posting anything right now, so here's another fun set to try out:

Snaptrap (Forretress) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Counter

If you don't like the idea of Choice Band-locking yourself into Counter against pokemon that might set up, Liechi Berry does the same thing in the majority of matchups. Rock Slide is a win vs both Charizards, easily OHKOing ZardY and even nabbing the KO on ZardX after Flare Blitz recoil. Substitute Zard is a non-issue, though defensive ZardX with Will-o-Wisp can beat you. Gyro Ball is your best option against Kyurem-Black and fairies such as Tapu Lele and Gardevoir. Earthquake is for fire, rock, and steel types that you can't spam Counter against for whatever reason (Substitute, soft hit>setup>KO, etc). It's also your kill move for Tapu Koko and Aegislash. Counter of course is your go-to vs most physical attackers who hit you and lose all their health in exchange.

Other move options: Heavy Slam may do more damage than Gyro Ball to some fairies/other relevant pokemon. If you go Liechi Berry instead of CB, Toxic and Bug Bite are good options to force physical attackers like Gyarados and Gluttony Snorlax to attack you and get Countered. Flail is a decent option if you want a strong neutral hit - once you drop to Sturdy, it powers up all the way. Protect helps vs Fake Out users but like Toxic, you can't use this with Choice Band.

This thing beats

Kyurem-Black
Charizard X (unless Will-o)
Charizard Y (unless Will-o)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Dragonite
Mega Lopunny (unless Sub)
Mega Mawile (unless Sub)
Metagross
Offensive (non-Curse) Mimikyu
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Donphan
Porygon-Z (unless HP Fire)
Mega Altaria
Blaziken/Mega Blaziken
Garchomp (Unless Sub)
Carracosta
Crustle
Gardevoir
Heatran (Unless Air Balloon/Shuca)
Jirachi
Kartana
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Diancie
Durant
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Archeops
Physical Hoopa-U
Victini
Marowak-A
Pretty much every other physical attacker lacking Mold Breaker or Fake Out

Pairs well with Fighting types such as Lopunny, Conkeldurr, or Terrakion. Fire types like Charizard Y also help vs opposing steels while Psychic and Fairy types like Mega Gardevoir are capable of taking on defensive threats like Leech Seed Mega Venusaur/Jumpluff while also threatening Gyarados.

If you want to meme on everyone, level 98 Gyro Ball actually does more damage than level 100. Speed difference is more important than Atk stat in a lot of cases, and it can help you with some rolls.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

A set showcase? I'm not gonna miss it.



...
In order to keep myself to falling into even worse negativity, I decided to chill out and share my favorite set that worked the best in 1v1LT cycles:

Nihilego @ Rockium Z / Poisonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Acid Spray
- Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ground]

As usual I tried finding a 'mon with < 600 stat that can deal with numerous threats in 1v1 meta. As I looked at this guy's typing, it was ready to take on 4 Tapu's, and it was outspeeding both Charizard's and I thought this squid will surely have a niche in 1v1. Initially I gave it Rockium Z to safely blow up bulky Zard x which often became a roll, but I noticed I am missing KO's on Charge Tapu Koko and bulky Tapu Lele. I thought about keeping Rockium Z despite these flaws because OHKOing non Charti Berry Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B was sweet, but I usually ended up finding myself facing Choice Scarf Kyurem-B next match... So I switched to Poisonium Z, and it caught unexpectedly many wins around low and mid ladder. Also access to Acid Spray let Nihilego bypass some behemoths such as Chansey / Blissey, Venusaur, Mega Sableye, and others. Grass Knot turned out to be a very fun meme against Mega Swampert and HP Ground did great job luring out Magnezone (which can be played around using Power Gem + HP Ground).


Nihilego @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot

Probably the other option we can use are Choice Specs set with HP Ice to meme those dragons and Landorus-T while having another coverage slot, but losing to Chansey / Venusaur wasn't too appealing to me.​

Calcs:

Acid Downpour

252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 474-560 (137.7 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 498-588 (144.7 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Tapu Fini: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 494-584 (135.7 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 259-306 (107.4 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 577-679 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (assume doing this after 3 Acid Spray)
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 382-451 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just dropping a brief summary of defensive calcs: lives Electroweb + Flash Cannon / Gigavolt Havoc from Modest Magnezone, and physical bulk is just bad so press X against Sturdy users barring Magnezone.

Things it beats:

* Mega Charizard X
(If not running Rockium Z or Specs, it is roll against bulky ones:
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 296-350 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
* Mega Charizard Y
* Mega Venusaur
* Mega Swampert (Grass Knot limited)
* Mega Sableye
* Mega Diancie
* Mega Altaria (Unless Earthquake)
* Tapu Koko
* Tapu Lele (Non-scarf)
* Tapu Fini
* Victini
* Marowak-A
* Porygon2
* Porygon-Z
* Chansey
* Blissey
* Kyurem-B (Non-scarf / Rockium Z limited)
* Magnezone (HP Ground limited)
* Mimikyu (Acid Spray on Disguise and use Z-move)
* Deoxys-S (Deoxys-S will eventually have to recover and thats when you go for another -2 or Z-move)
* P much anything that can't 1HKO Nihilego and doesn't resist its dual STABs

Probably I will keep using this just to punish people who CT my original Magnezone with Charizards.

This thing beats

Dragonite
...

Pretty much every other physical attacker lacking Mold Breaker or Fake Out

There is this kid named AntonBruh who stalks everyone to ct all teams and he has mixed dnite with Fire Blast, watch out. Other than that, cool set! Might try that some time :)

 

[Whammerist]

A set showcase? I'm not gonna miss it.

View attachment 87803

...
In order to keep myself to falling into even worse negativity, I decided to chill out and share my favorite set that worked the best in 1v1LT cycles:

Nihilego @ Rockium Z / Poisonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Acid Spray
- Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ground]

As usual I tried finding a 'mon with < 600 stat that can deal with numerous threats in 1v1 meta. As I looked at this guy's typing, it was ready to take on 4 Tapu's, and it was outspeeding both Charizard's and I thought this squid will surely have a niche in 1v1. Initially I gave it Rockium Z to safely blow up bulky Zard x which often became a roll, but I noticed I am missing KO's on Charge Tapu Koko and bulky Tapu Lele. I thought about keeping Rockium Z despite these flaws because OHKOing non Charti Berry Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B was sweet, but I usually ended up finding myself facing Choice Scarf Kyurem-B next match... So I switched to Poisonium Z, and it caught unexpectedly many wins around low and mid ladder. Also access to Acid Spray let Nihilego bypass some behemoths such as Chansey / Blissey, Venusaur, Mega Sableye, and others. Grass Knot turned out to be a very fun meme against Mega Swampert and HP Ground did great job luring out Magnezone (which can be played around using Power Gem + HP Ground).


Nihilego @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot

Probably the other option we can use are Choice Specs set with HP Ice to meme those dragons and Landorus-T while having another coverage slot, but losing to Chansey / Venusaur wasn't too appealing to me.​

Calcs:

Acid Downpour

252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 474-560 (137.7 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 498-588 (144.7 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Tapu Fini: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 494-584 (135.7 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 259-306 (107.4 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 577-679 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (assume doing this after 3 Acid Spray)
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 382-451 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just dropping a brief summary of defensive calcs: lives Electroweb + Flash Cannon / Gigavolt Havoc from Modest Magnezone, and physical bulk is just bad so press X against Sturdy users barring Magnezone.

Things it beats:

* Mega Charizard X
(If not running Rockium Z or Specs, it is roll against bulky ones:
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 296-350 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
* Mega Charizard Y
* Mega Venusaur
* Mega Swampert (Grass Knot limited)
* Mega Sableye
* Mega Diancie
* Mega Altaria (Unless Earthquake)
* Tapu Koko
* Tapu Lele (Non-scarf)
* Tapu Fini
* Victini
* Marowak-A
* Porygon2
* Porygon-Z
* Chansey
* Blissey
* Kyurem-B (Non-scarf / Rockium Z limited)
* Magnezone (HP Ground limited)
* Mimikyu (Acid Spray on Disguise and use Z-move)
* Deoxys-S (Deoxys-S will eventually have to recover and thats when you go for another -2 or Z-move)
* P much anything that can't 1HKO Nihilego and doesn't resist its dual STABs

Probably I will keep using this just to punish people who CT my original Magnezone with Charizards.



There is this kid named AntonBruh who stalks everyone to ct all teams and he has mixed dnite with Fire Blast, watch out. Other than that, cool set! Might try that some time :)

You mean the Kentari team featuring Mixed DNite that many other players run??
Good post, no need to end it on a both mean-spirited and incorrect note.

 

[edudittA]

A set showcase? I'm not gonna miss it.

View attachment 87803

...
In order to keep myself to falling into even worse negativity, I decided to chill out and share my favorite set that worked the best in 1v1LT cycles:

Nihilego @ Rockium Z / Poisonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Acid Spray
- Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ground]

As usual I tried finding a 'mon with < 600 stat that can deal with numerous threats in 1v1 meta. As I looked at this guy's typing, it was ready to take on 4 Tapu's, and it was outspeeding both Charizard's and I thought this squid will surely have a niche in 1v1. Initially I gave it Rockium Z to safely blow up bulky Zard x which often became a roll, but I noticed I am missing KO's on Charge Tapu Koko and bulky Tapu Lele. I thought about keeping Rockium Z despite these flaws because OHKOing non Charti Berry Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B was sweet, but I usually ended up finding myself facing Choice Scarf Kyurem-B next match... So I switched to Poisonium Z, and it caught unexpectedly many wins around low and mid ladder. Also access to Acid Spray let Nihilego bypass some behemoths such as Chansey / Blissey, Venusaur, Mega Sableye, and others. Grass Knot turned out to be a very fun meme against Mega Swampert and HP Ground did great job luring out Magnezone (which can be played around using Power Gem + HP Ground).


Nihilego @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot

Probably the other option we can use are Choice Specs set with HP Ice to meme those dragons and Landorus-T while having another coverage slot, but losing to Chansey / Venusaur wasn't too appealing to me.​

Calcs:

Acid Downpour

252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 474-560 (137.7 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 498-588 (144.7 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Tapu Fini: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 494-584 (135.7 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 259-306 (107.4 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 577-679 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (assume doing this after 3 Acid Spray)
252 SpA Nihilego Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 382-451 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just dropping a brief summary of defensive calcs: lives Electroweb + Flash Cannon / Gigavolt Havoc from Modest Magnezone, and physical bulk is just bad so press X against Sturdy users barring Magnezone.

Things it beats:

* Mega Charizard X
(If not running Rockium Z or Specs, it is roll against bulky ones:
252 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 296-350 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
* Mega Charizard Y
* Mega Venusaur
* Mega Swampert (Grass Knot limited)
* Mega Sableye
* Mega Diancie
* Mega Altaria (Unless Earthquake)
* Tapu Koko
* Tapu Lele (Non-scarf)
* Tapu Fini
* Victini
* Marowak-A
* Porygon2
* Porygon-Z
* Chansey
* Blissey
* Kyurem-B (Non-scarf / Rockium Z limited)
* Magnezone (HP Ground limited)
* Mimikyu (Acid Spray on Disguise and use Z-move)
* Deoxys-S (Deoxys-S will eventually have to recover and thats when you go for another -2 or Z-move)
* P much anything that can't 1HKO Nihilego and doesn't resist its dual STABs

Probably I will keep using this just to punish people who CT my original Magnezone with Charizards.



There is this kid named AntonBruh who stalks everyone to ct all teams and he has mixed dnite with Fire Blast, watch out. Other than that, cool set! Might try that some time :)

You might wanna look into a slightly improved Nihi, viz mine!

Nihilego @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 128 HP / 180 Def / 176 SpA / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem

Hide

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 128 HP / 180+ Def Nihilego: 324-382 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 128 HP / 180+ Def Nihilego: 313-370 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO{Though IK full speed ContiCrush beats CharX Hands down.}

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 244-288 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego in Electric Terrain: 289-342 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Substitute is for ZMove tanking from random mons and status prevention like sleep(though this is conveniently subverted by jumpluff) and TWave paralysis, just in case.


I also have a specs set with HP fire and TBolt instead of acid spray and substitute,with same EV's. Though I prefer Rockium, I've used specs to moderate success as well!

No one's posting anything right now, so here's another fun set to try out:

Snaptrap (Forretress) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Counter

If you don't like the idea of Choice Band-locking yourself into Counter against pokemon that might set up, Liechi Berry does the same thing in the majority of matchups. Rock Slide is a win vs both Charizards, easily OHKOing ZardY and even nabbing the KO on ZardX after Flare Blitz recoil. Substitute Zard is a non-issue, though defensive ZardX with Will-o-Wisp can beat you. Gyro Ball is your best option against Kyurem-Black and fairies such as Tapu Lele and Gardevoir. Earthquake is for fire, rock, and steel types that you can't spam Counter against for whatever reason (Substitute, soft hit>setup>KO, etc). It's also your kill move for Tapu Koko and Aegislash. Counter of course is your go-to vs most physical attackers who hit you and lose all their health in exchange.

Other move options: Heavy Slam may do more damage than Gyro Ball to some fairies/other relevant pokemon. If you go Liechi Berry instead of CB, Toxic and Bug Bite are good options to force physical attackers like Gyarados and Gluttony Snorlax to attack you and get Countered. Flail is a decent option if you want a strong neutral hit - once you drop to Sturdy, it powers up all the way. Protect helps vs Fake Out users but like Toxic, you can't use this with Choice Band.

This thing beats

Kyurem-Black
Charizard X
Charizard Y
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Dragonite
Mega Lopunny (unless Sub)
Mega Mawile (unless Sub)
Metagross
Offensive (non-Curse) Mimikyu
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Donphan
Porygon-Z (unless HP Fire)
Mega Altaria
Blaziken/Mega Blaziken
Garchomp (Unless Sub)
Carracosta
Crustle
Gardevoir
Heatran (Unless Air Balloon/Shuca)
Jirachi
Kartana
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Diancie
Durant
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Archeops
Physical Hoopa-U
Victini
Marowak-A
Pretty much every other physical attacker lacking Mold Breaker or Fake Out

Pairs well with Fighting types such as Lopunny, Conkeldurr, or Terrakion. Fire types like Charizard Y also help vs opposing steels while Psychic and Fairy types like Mega Gardevoir are capable of taking on defensive threats like Leech Seed Mega Venusaur/Jumpluff while also threatening Gyarados.

If you want to meme on everyone, level 98 Gyro Ball actually does more damage than level 100. Speed difference is more important than Atk stat in a lot of cases, and it can help you with some rolls.

Forretress doesn't counter charX, charY and donphan for that matter

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 254-300 (85.5 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 127-150 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
[After a WoW burn]
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 96-113 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Rock Slide vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO{This charY counters Gren, KyuB and PZ, so not exactly a niche set}

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP)+ Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress- 100.8-118%-- guaranteed OHKO<- counter brings to sturdy and phan EQ kills!!

 

[Elo Bandit]

You might wanna look into a slightly improved Nihi, viz mine!

Nihilego @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 128 HP / 180 Def / 176 SpA / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem

Nice set, I think this is pretty good EV spread to use in our current Kyurem-Black heavy meta. I'll have to give this guy another shot.

Forretress doesn't counter charX, charY and donphan for that matter

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 254-300 (85.5 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 127-150 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
[After a WoW burn]
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 96-113 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Forretress Rock Slide vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 258-304 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO{This charY counters Gren, KyuB and PZ, so not exactly a niche set}

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 228-268 (78.3 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO<- counter brings to sturdy and phan EQ kills!!

Sorry but most of your calculations here are either incorrect or irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Rock Slide isn't a guaranteed KO on Charizard X - he takes way too much damage from Flare Blitz recoil to tank a banded super effective move in return. I did actually mention

defensive ZardX with Will-o-Wisp can beat you.

in my OP. On Charizard Y, I'd like to point out that Will-O users are the extreme minority, many are in favor of better coverage (Blast Burn, SolarBeam, Focus Miss, HP Electric, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Air Slash, Rock Tomb) or a more reliable defensive move like Substitute or Roost. As for Donphan - why is Forretress 0 HP 0 Def in your calc?

Here are some calculations of mine:

Forretress max HP: 354
353/3 = 117 damage (rounded down) from Flare Blitz recoil

Charizard Max HP: 360
Charizard 0 invested HP: 279

118/360 = 0.325
118/279 = 0.423

Depending on how much Zard X has invested in HP, he's losing at LEAST a third of his HP off Flare Blitz recoil alone. If it's not invested in HP, you're losing almost half your health before you get hit back.

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's more than enough to beat any fast offensive Zard X.
252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I guess Rock Slide can be a roll if they invest HP but...
252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 254-300 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earthquake is still going to break them after recoil.

Not calcing anything more defensive because that's the only set that can viably use Will-o-Wisp. Meanwhile...

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 228-268 (64.4 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

So Donphan actually does beat this EV spread. However...

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 80.2% chance to 3HKO after burn damage

You can swing the matchup in your favor by switching to defensive EVs or by simply equipping a Sitrus Berry.

 

[edudittA]

Nice set, I think this is pretty good EV spread to use in our current Kyurem-Black heavy meta. I'll have to give this guy another shot.



Sorry but most of your calculations here are either incorrect or irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Rock Slide isn't a guaranteed KO on Charizard X - he takes way too much damage from Flare Blitz recoil to tank a banded super effective move in return. I did actually mention

in my OP. On Charizard Y, I'd like to point out that Will-O users are the extreme minority, many are in favor of better coverage (Blast Burn, SolarBeam, Focus Miss, HP Electric, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Air Slash, Rock Tomb) or a more reliable defensive move like Substitute or Roost. As for Donphan - why is Forretress 0 HP 0 Def in your calc?

Here are some calculations of mine:

Forretress max HP: 354
353/3 = 117 damage (rounded down) from Flare Blitz recoil

Charizard Max HP: 360
Charizard 0 invested HP: 279

118/360 = 0.325
118/279 = 0.423

Depending on how much Zard X has invested in HP, he's losing at LEAST a third of his HP off Flare Blitz recoil alone. If it's not invested in HP, you're losing almost half your health before you get hit back.

252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's more than enough to beat any fast offensive Zard X.
252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I guess Rock Slide can be a roll if they invest HP but...
252+ Atk Choice Band Forretress Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 254-300 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Earthquake is still going to break them after recoil.

Not calcing anything more defensive because that's the only set that can viably use Will-o-Wisp. Meanwhile...

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 228-268 (64.4 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

So Donphan actually does beat this EV spread. However...

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 80.2% chance to 3HKO after burn damage

You can swing the matchup in your favor by switching to defensive EVs or by simply equipping a Sitrus Berry.

You didn't get me. I meant WoW into FB/BlastBurn, which is a common set on both Chars, and against which forretress has not a chance

 

[sin(pi)]

No one's posting anything right now, so here's another fun set to try out:

Snaptrap (Forretress) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Counter

If you don't like the idea of Choice Band-locking yourself into Counter against pokemon that might set up, Liechi Berry does the same thing in the majority of matchups. Rock Slide is a win vs both Charizards, easily OHKOing ZardY and even nabbing the KO on ZardX after Flare Blitz recoil. Substitute Zard is a non-issue, though defensive ZardX with Will-o-Wisp can beat you. Gyro Ball is your best option against Kyurem-Black and fairies such as Tapu Lele and Gardevoir. Earthquake is for fire, rock, and steel types that you can't spam Counter against for whatever reason (Substitute, soft hit>setup>KO, etc). It's also your kill move for Tapu Koko and Aegislash. Counter of course is your go-to vs most physical attackers who hit you and lose all their health in exchange.

Other move options: Heavy Slam may do more damage than Gyro Ball to some fairies/other relevant pokemon. If you go Liechi Berry instead of CB, Toxic and Bug Bite are good options to force physical attackers like Gyarados and Gluttony Snorlax to attack you and get Countered. Flail is a decent option if you want a strong neutral hit - once you drop to Sturdy, it powers up all the way. Protect helps vs Fake Out users but like Toxic, you can't use this with Choice Band.

This thing beats

Kyurem-Black
Charizard X
Charizard Y
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Dragonite
Mega Lopunny (unless Sub)
Mega Mawile (unless Sub)
Metagross
Offensive (non-Curse) Mimikyu
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Donphan
Porygon-Z (unless HP Fire)
Mega Altaria
Blaziken/Mega Blaziken
Garchomp (Unless Sub)
Carracosta
Crustle
Gardevoir
Heatran (Unless Air Balloon/Shuca)
Jirachi
Kartana
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Diancie
Durant
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Archeops
Physical Hoopa-U
Victini
Marowak-A
Pretty much every other physical attacker lacking Mold Breaker or Fake Out

Pairs well with Fighting types such as Lopunny, Conkeldurr, or Terrakion. Fire types like Charizard Y also help vs opposing steels while Psychic and Fairy types like Mega Gardevoir are capable of taking on defensive threats like Leech Seed Mega Venusaur/Jumpluff while also threatening Gyarados.

If you want to meme on everyone, level 98 Gyro Ball actually does more damage than level 100. Speed difference is more important than Atk stat in a lot of cases, and it can help you with some rolls.

Pointing out that you do lose most of the time to Dragon Claw (or EQ, or any non-fire type attack) into FB from Xard - which is 100% the correct play against Forry because of sturdy. Your own EQ is an unfavourable roll as you've shown.

You also lose to Fire Punch but lol

 

[Elo Bandit]

You didn't get me. I meant WoW into FB/BlastBurn, which is a common set on both Chars, and against which forretress has not a chance

I'll concede it loses to Wisp Zard. The point I was trying to make was that most Charizards don't run Will-O anymore since it doesn't beat anything relevant - If a Sturdy mon is clicking Continental Crush you're dead regardless of a burn. In my OP, I made the assumption that most Charizards use either a set that looks like this:

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (or whatever HP investment)
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage
- Substitute/Roost

or like this:

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or whatever HP/Def investment)
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn/Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast/HP Electric/Rock Tomb/Flamethrower

Which I think is pretty fair. People don't use stuff like Dragon Claw or Earthquake on ZardX for the most part because Outrage exists and because Heatran and other ground-weak pokemon almost always either run Balloon, tank a hit regardless i.e. Sturdy Magnezone, or outspeed and KO like Nihilego.

Fire Punch

lol

ZardY really likes being able to beat Gyarados and/or other Charizards. Taking a coverage move away to replace with Will-O hurts these matchups and barely gets you any wins - with Wisp you beat non-head smash Aggron, non-head smash Donphan, and... uh.... Avalugg?

.....

remind me why people use Wisp on Zard Y at all? It doesn't change matchups that you can win just by clicking Obligatory Fire Move or Solar Beam. You're not beating Sturdy physicals like Golem that 100-0 you regardless of burn. Air Slash is actually a better option for those types of matchups - 30% Flinch == 30% win.

I guess people can run what they want. I haven't yet lost to a Charizard with this banded Forretress though.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I'll concede it loses to Wisp Zard. The point I was trying to make was that most Charizards don't run Will-O anymore since it doesn't beat anything relevant - If a Sturdy mon is clicking Continental Crush you're dead regardless of a burn. In my OP, I made the assumption that most Charizards use either a set that looks like this:

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (or whatever HP investment)
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage
- Substitute/Roost

or like this:

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or whatever HP/Def investment)
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn/Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast/HP Electric/Rock Tomb/Flamethrower

Which I think is pretty fair. People don't use stuff like Dragon Claw or Earthquake on ZardX for the most part because Outrage exists and because Heatran and other ground-weak pokemon almost always either run Balloon, tank a hit regardless i.e. Sturdy Magnezone, or outspeed and KO like Nihilego. lol

ZardY really likes being able to beat Gyarados and/or other Charizards. Taking a coverage move away to replace with Will-O hurts these matchups and barely gets you any wins - with Wisp you beat non-head smash Aggron, non-head smash Donphan, and... uh.... Avalugg?

.....

remind me why people use Wisp on Zard Y at all? It doesn't change matchups that you can win just by clicking Obligatory Fire Move or Solar Beam. You're not beating Sturdy physicals like Golem that 100-0 you regardless of burn. Air Slash is actually a better option for those types of matchups - 30% Flinch == 30% win.

I guess people can run what they want. I haven't yet lost to a Charizard with this banded Forretress though.

It's not the best, but wisp Char y beats Rock Tomb Golem, a set that's gotten much more common post UOP, (non-scarf) Sawk, is more reliable against mgyara, and beat any phy mons that ev to live. It's not amazing or anything, but it's not for Aggron and Avalugg.

 

[DEG]

Update on 1v1 OMs:

In 1v1 UU
we gained the following: Venusaur-Mega, Blaziken-Mega
we lost the following: Tapu Fini, Snorlax, Jirachi, Heracross-Mega

In 1v1 AAA:
No Guard and Normalize will be banned.


If you have any sample teams you'd like to share or any other bans, please post.

 

[Felucia]

Update on 1v1 OMs:

In 1v1 UU
we gained the following: Venusaur-Mega, Blaziken-Mega
we lost the following: Tapu Fini, Snorlax, Jirachi, Heracross-Mega

In 1v1 AAA:
No Guard and Normalize will be banned.


If you have any sample teams you'd like to share or any other bans, please post.

This AAA team is pretty mediocre, but it's something I guess...

Hide

Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 208 Def / 60 SpA
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Counter
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Psyshock

Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

 

[edudittA]

Hi, this is your favourite Attidude/WrathOfAlakazam back with another post


Since we are on the topic of 1v1 OM teams, and I don't have full teams to contribute, I thought I might share random mons I thought of!! Move over the 4X-weakness negating abilities like Sap Sipper Swampert, WaterAbsorb/StormDrain Camerupt, or Flash Fire Ferrothorn/Scizor, guys! I can see the following mons totally wrecking the AAA1V1.

1)
Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Hyper Beam
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

I just thought about it. This ability is far too good to go unexploited. This ability suits a mon with nice typing, good defences, and a decent speed stat won't hurt as well. Well, melo fits in like the champ it's made to be. As seen in the 1v1 meta, it can be used to tank various threats, both physical and special, and can return the revenge in full! Well, berserk just establishes the overkill!

2)
Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 160 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Def / 92 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Amnesia
- Crunch
- Return
You won't be far off the mark if you think I must be insane for thinking up this mon, but it's insane bulk allows it to steadily setup, and poison heal will do its job in healing this lazy monster. If you're sick of being knocked off, though, you could consider having protect, which could also help for the initial poisoning!!

3)
Breloominati (Breloom) @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Drain Punch
Boi, this thing is good as hell! For anything slower than 262(Max Breloom speed), this will be a nightmare[literally and figuratively]!!

4)

Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Frenzy Plant
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Leech Seed

This could hit like a truck, and it has speed which helps! Grassy Terrain-boosted Frenzy Plant coupled with a 145 SpA stat? That's pretty decent!!

 

[toadandhishaxx]

Update on 1v1 OMs:

In 1v1 UU
we gained the following: Venusaur-Mega, Blaziken-Mega
we lost the following: Tapu Fini, Snorlax, Jirachi, Heracross-Mega

In 1v1 AAA:
No Guard and Normalize will be banned.


If you have any sample teams you'd like to share or any other bans, please post.

poor hypnosis crobat ;-;

 

[edudittA]

No one's posting anything right now, so here's another fun set to try out:

Snaptrap (Forretress) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Counter

If you don't like the idea of Choice Band-locking yourself into Counter against pokemon that might set up, Liechi Berry does the same thing in the majority of matchups. Rock Slide is a win vs both Charizards, easily OHKOing ZardY and even nabbing the KO on ZardX after Flare Blitz recoil. Substitute Zard is a non-issue, though defensive ZardX with Will-o-Wisp can beat you. Gyro Ball is your best option against Kyurem-Black and fairies such as Tapu Lele and Gardevoir. Earthquake is for fire, rock, and steel types that you can't spam Counter against for whatever reason (Substitute, soft hit>setup>KO, etc). It's also your kill move for Tapu Koko and Aegislash. Counter of course is your go-to vs most physical attackers who hit you and lose all their health in exchange.

Other move options: Heavy Slam may do more damage than Gyro Ball to some fairies/other relevant pokemon. If you go Liechi Berry instead of CB, Toxic and Bug Bite are good options to force physical attackers like Gyarados and Gluttony Snorlax to attack you and get Countered. Flail is a decent option if you want a strong neutral hit - once you drop to Sturdy, it powers up all the way. Protect helps vs Fake Out users but like Toxic, you can't use this with Choice Band.

This thing beats

Kyurem-Black
Charizard X (unless Will-o)
Charizard Y (unless Will-o)
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Dragonite
Mega Lopunny (unless Sub)
Mega Mawile (unless Sub)
Metagross
Offensive (non-Curse) Mimikyu
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Donphan
Porygon-Z (unless HP Fire)
Mega Altaria
Blaziken/Mega Blaziken
Garchomp (Unless Sub)
Carracosta
Crustle
Gardevoir
Heatran (Unless Air Balloon/Shuca)
Jirachi
Kartana
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Diancie
Durant
Pheromosa
Terrakion
Archeops
Physical Hoopa-U
Victini
Marowak-A
Pretty much every other physical attacker lacking Mold Breaker or Fake Out

Pairs well with Fighting types such as Lopunny, Conkeldurr, or Terrakion. Fire types like Charizard Y also help vs opposing steels while Psychic and Fairy types like Mega Gardevoir are capable of taking on defensive threats like Leech Seed Mega Venusaur/Jumpluff while also threatening Gyarados.

If you want to meme on everyone, level 98 Gyro Ball actually does more damage than level 100. Speed difference is more important than Atk stat in a lot of cases, and it can help you with some rolls.

Well, just adding to my previous post about nihi I just shuffled EV's here and there, and this happened:

Nihilego @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 128 HP / 248 Def / 108 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem

Have fun.

 

[DEG]

Sleep in 1v1

Snorlax used Yawn!
​

If you're a 1v1 player you probably fell victim to sleep shenanigans, used them yourself, or even both. Sleep is an unhealthy and competitive aspect of the metagame, not as much as accuracy-reducing moves but they are more used than the previously banned moves. In regular Smogon™ 6v6 gameplay, Sleep is limited by sleep clause and in 1v1 such clause isn't in effect since you only have one Pokemon on the field after Team Preview. Sleep allows you to neutralize the opponent for a turn or two (Three if lucky) giving you an opportunity to set up or directly attack and deal damage to the foe. What is more problematic is that the most common sleep move is Yawn which has 100% accuracy and when combined with protect guarantee sleep. Other moves such as Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are also used but not more than Yawn.

What are the common sleep abusers?

Yawn:

Sleep Powder:

Hypnosis:

As noticed these Pokemon aren't the most used nor the most ranked high by viability but that's because of Sleep. It is a double edged sword which forces many matchups into coinflips and who is the most lucky player. For example, Jumpluff, Mega Gengar and Snorlax are ranked where they are right now due to Sleep only. While Mega-Gengar has an unreliable sleep move it can still cheese out many victories such as against Dark-types notably Mega Gyarados thanks to its high speed Hypnosis. Jumpluff is also fast and is more reliable as Sleep Powder+Zoom Lens allows it to easily put foe to sleep and Leech Seed them. Meanwhile Yawn abusers only need a turn of yawn then protect to inflict the sleep.

What makes sleep unhealthy?

It's not a question of broken but uncompetitive and unhealthy. Sleep forces a lot of luck and coinflips which isn't a way we want to go in the 1v1 metagame. Most games that involve sleep are always based on who is the luckiest player. Will the sleep move connect? Will I get enough sleep turns? Having such aspect in the 1v1 metagame is not a good option and can flip games to the Sleep user easily. This is why I think Sleep moves should be banned from the 1v1 metagame alongside accuracy reducing moves.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Sleep in 1v1

Snorlax used Yawn!
​

If you're a 1v1 player you probably fell victim to sleep shenanigans, used them yourself, or even both. Sleep is an unhealthy and competitive aspect of the metagame, not as much as accuracy-reducing moves but they are more used than the previously banned moves. In regular Smogon™ 6v6 gameplay, Sleep is limited by sleep clause and in 1v1 such clause isn't in effect since you only have one Pokemon on the field after Team Preview. Sleep allows you to neutralize the opponent for a turn or two (Three if lucky) giving you an opportunity to set up or directly attack and deal damage to the foe. What is more problematic is that the most common sleep move is Yawn which has 100% accuracy and when combined with protect guarantee sleep. Other moves such as Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are also used but not more than Yawn.

What are the common sleep abusers?

Yawn:

Sleep Powder:

Hypnosis:

As noticed these Pokemon aren't the most used nor the most ranked high by viability but that's because of Sleep. It is a double edged sword which forces many matchups into coinflips and who is the most lucky player. For example, Jumpluff, Mega Gengar and Snorlax are ranked where they are right now due to Sleep only. While Mega-Gengar has an unreliable sleep move it can still cheese out many victories such as against Dark-types notably Mega Gyarados thanks to its high speed Hypnosis. Jumpluff is also fast and is more reliable as Sleep Powder+Zoom Lens allows it to easily put foe to sleep and Leech Seed them. Meanwhile Yawn abusers only need a turn of yawn then protect to inflict the sleep.

What makes sleep unhealthy?

It's not a question of broken but uncompetitive and unhealthy. Sleep forces a lot of luck and coinflips which isn't a way we want to go in the 1v1 metagame. Most games that involve sleep are always based on who is the luckiest player. Will the sleep move connect? Will I get enough sleep turns? Having such aspect in the 1v1 metagame is not a good option and can flip games to the Sleep user easily. This is why I think Sleep moves should be banned from the 1v1 metagame alongside accuracy reducing moves.

I originally had no qualms with the existence of sleep. That is, until the big boom in Snorlax usage happened, and I started to run into Jumpluff more and more. As DEG said, Sleep isn't necessarily broken: It's just extremely RNG-based, and throws skill out the window. While Mega Gengar and Jumpluff have incredible speed tiers, Snorlax and Mega Swampert easily have enough bulk to tank a hit, Yawn, and then Protect. Meanwhile, unless you outspeed, you just need to pray that you can wake up before Jumpluff starts Leech Seeding, because if you don't wake up right on the turn it Substitutes, you lose, good game. Also, the ONLY thing that hard-counters Snorlax are Ghost and Fighting types. What's that? Think Mega Metagross, Mawile and Aggron can beat it?

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 498-587 (163.8 - 193%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 394-465 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 424-500 (116.4 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 322-381 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron-Mega: 259-306 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aggron-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 269-317 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But you'll wake up before Snorlax can use Belly Drum + Breakneck Blitz, right? Maybe, but there's also a decent chance you won't wake up in time. And this is why sleep is ridiculous. It turns so many match-ups into dice rolls. There is absolutely no way in hell, in any universe, in any timeline, that Jumpluff should be able to beat Kyurem-Black. But because of it's trademark moveset of Leech Seed + Sub + Protect + Sleep Powder, there is a good chance for it to actually beat down non-scarf variants. Smeargle is a piece of shit, but due to Spore, it can actually carve out a niche. A gimmicky and stupid niche that nobody beyond the 1200s would ever use unironically, but a niche nonetheless.

Thanks so much for speaking about this. I've heard some veiled whispers about this idea in the 1v1 chat room, and I've wanted to talk about it myself, but thee fear of being absolutely blasted overcame me. But now that we got a big boy in this community like you bringing this up, I gained the confidence to finally speak my opinion. Get rid of sleep! It's very not cool!

Edit: Woops, forgot about fighting types. kek

 

[Felucia]

Also, the ONLY thing that hard-counters Snorlax are Ghost types. What's that? Think Mega Metagross, Mawile and Aggron can beat it?

For convenience sake forgetting a certain type called fighting exists?

252+ Atk Sawk All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def protected Snorlax: 156-183 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 14.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 392-464 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Buzzwole All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def protected Snorlax: 168-198 (32 - 37.7%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Buzzwole Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 426-504 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 540-636 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 486-574 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Heracross-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 528-624 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO


also the always reliable reflect koko
0 Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko through Reflect: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO

Metagross is also a fun one
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 290-342 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 Atk Snorlax Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 196-231 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Have fun getting 3 sleep turns out of that one

EDIT: This doesn't mean I don't want sleep banned. I'm in favor of a ban

EDIT 2: Also you're wrong on your calcs because in at least 2 of the cases you'll not get off a belly drum normally and you'll need to use Z-Belly and therefore the calcs change

 

[Blazikin]

I agree to most said as before , it is incredibly unhealthy skill wise and as we did a poll earlier only 1 vote was against banning it meaning a lot of people at least see a problem in it. I agree it should be prolly banned or at least quickly suspected. To yung dramps gross beats lax tho only if you run hammerarm. which is another point why sleep is kinda unhealthy as it forces you to run moves on certain mons youd normally never run and only run it for 1 exact mon . which in my opinion is somewhat sad or annyoing to prepare yourself to just beat this one mon
so we certainly got to do something on that. especially the rng luck based win style it induces considering if you wake up or not
you also missed a yawn user , darmanitan . *looks at charizard8888*

damn you mez i posted it and you sniped me with the mgross hammerarm ;_; *sob*

 

[xiaomeow/potatopickle]

Some little things with the calcs. Maybe you should calculate using Double-Edge next time. Also, UOP just said Fighting Types exist too. Also, Bulbapedia doesn't specify how sleep actually works, can you explain, instead of saying a decent chance? Also, Kyurem-Black is as vulnerable to sleep as any other mon, it isn't that hard to understand. Scarf Kyurem-Black kill Jumpluff anyways. If you run a non scarf, then you're just running into your own problems. Even Charizard-Mega-X/Y can at least run Flame Charge.