Ede Za definitely has Superpower and Stone Edge, and I don't think it has Mirror Coat, but dank mon!!!IMMA MAKE A DECENT POST FOR ONCE
This post is about a Pokemon that is extremely underused for its level of viability, and no, I am in fact not talking about Miltank. It's about the icy aircraft carrier, Avalugg.
What makes Avalugg good?
Avalugg is good due to a few things, like:
1. STURDY
2. Incredibly low Special Defense + Mirror Coat
3. Incredibly high levels of physical bulk + Curse + Recover
4. Really good typing and moveset for a Weakness Policy
5. Not many people know what it does.
This last point is especially crucial, as so few people use it that not many people know how to counter it. But what exactly does it beat?
Just looking at the VR, it beats:
S: KYUREM- If physical, Avalugg wins by Cursing up and Avalanching
M-GYARADOS- If no Taunt, Avalugg wins by the same strategy as KyuB
A+: ZARDX- Avalugg wins by clicking Avalanche
PORY-Z- Avalugg wins by clicking Mirror Coat
TAPU KOKO- This is a bit trickier. You have to rely on predictions... and we all know I'm shit at those. But better players could pull this off. The basic idea is, Mirror Coat on a Z or Avalanche with less than 80% health... so you have to play the Sub predict game.
TAPU LELE- Mirror Coat, because I like to think that Sub Lele doesn't exist and Specs is supreme to all. If it is Sub, same strat as Koko applies.
A: M-AGGRON- uhhhh... let's ignore him
ZARDY- Mirror Coat or Avalanche. Your choice.
DRAGONITE- You have an Ice type move and incredible physical bulk. If you know it's special, Mirror Coat.
MAGEARNA- !dt Mirror Coat
M-MAWILE- Who uses this anyway?!
M-METAGROSS- god damn you steel types... Actually, you can win this with some luck and Curse. Just pray that they don't get Meteor Mash boosts.
M-PINSIR- ez win with my boy Avalanche
A-: AEGISLASH- Mirror Coat, or Curse up if it's Physical
DONPHAN: Curse and Avalanche
LANDO-T: YOU HAVE AN ICE MOVE OK
MAGNEZONE: Don't some people run Analytic??! That's your only hope xd
MIMIKYU: you win this with Recover and Avalanche
M-SLOWBRO: Mirror Coat is your only hope, fortunately it's a good one
M-VENUSAUR: you lose :( DAMN YOU LEECH SEED
And I think I'll stop there. That's 5/6 out of the top 4 ranks, with practically all of its counters contained there. It only gets better for the flat-topped behemoth as the number of physically bulky, physical attacking Steel types thin out.
oh yeah I forgot to include my set lol
Za Beast (Avalugg) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Curse
- Recover
- Mirror Coat
This is a fairly standard Weakness Policy Avalugg, Curse+Recover for bulking up and AvalancheCoat for attacking.
EVs are max attack with the Nature in Defense to boost it more than any EVs ever could.
It's named after Avalugg pioneer and 1v1 GOD Ede "Za". Plus this thing is a beast when you see it in action.
OTHER POSSIBLE MOVES-SETS:
Gyro Ball: With its slow speed + Curse, GBall is a great choice for Avaluggs with more than one attack
Earthquake: For dem Z-Ground bait sets that beat the Steels
Superpower: For the Rock Tomb Heatrans amongst us. And don't forget about Ice Beam Z-Hyper Beam Porygon-Z.
Stone Edge: For bulky ZardX, this works wonders on those annoying smart people with Flame Charge. But who's smart in 1v1 anyway?
Z-Ground: as described in Earthquake
Z-Fighting: uh... I don't really see what this would beat, but Ede Za uses it sometimes
More than one attack: For coverage at the cost of recovery/stallbreaking
TEAMBUILDING ADVICE: Pair this with anything that beats those Steels and fast KyuB/Gyarados. I recommend Metagross-Mega, the infamous Scarf Genesect, and Landorus-Incarnate, in decreasing order of usage rates.
I seriously can't believe that no one posted on this thing before lol
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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter The Immortal
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Are you sick and tired of Kyurem-Black's crap? Do you need a strong Water type on your team that comes equipped with speed control? If you fit into those two categories, I got a set that might interest you.
Keldeo @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 60 Def / 216 SpA / 232 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Icy Wind
This Keldeo set beats every relevant Kyurem-Black variant. Keldeo only needs 60 Defense EVs and Bold nature to tank Max Attack Adamant Fusion Bolt:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 60+ Def Keldeo: 272-322 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meanwhile, even UOP's Bulky Icium Z Kyurem falls to Z-Secret Sword:
216 SpA Keldeo All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Kyurem-Black: 528-624 (116.2 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The speed investment is for outspeeding the rare speedy Adamant Band Kyurem or speedy Modest Specs. The last 40 HP EVs are filler, and are there for slightly more bulk.
Keldeo isn't just a one-trick pony, however (hehehehehe). Keldeo also tanks hits from, and can defeat:
Donphan: Not guaranteed, but the chance of winning is in your favor
Landorus-Therian: The EVs creep max speed Jolly Landorus
Mega Gyarados: HP Electric + Z-Secret Sword KOes no matter what, and Gyarados can't KO back
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 60+ Def Keldeo: 228-269 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard X: Keldeo can win against Adamant DDance and, with some prediction, Bulky Zard X
Porygon-Z: If you're not Scarf, you die, simple as that
and Mega Aggron
It also beats a lot of B tier stuff
not even bad tbh
Keldeo @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 60 Def / 216 SpA / 232 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Icy Wind
This Keldeo set beats every relevant Kyurem-Black variant. Keldeo only needs 60 Defense EVs and Bold nature to tank Max Attack Adamant Fusion Bolt:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 60+ Def Keldeo: 272-322 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meanwhile, even UOP's Bulky Icium Z Kyurem falls to Z-Secret Sword:
216 SpA Keldeo All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Kyurem-Black: 528-624 (116.2 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The speed investment is for outspeeding the rare speedy Adamant Band Kyurem or speedy Modest Specs. The last 40 HP EVs are filler, and are there for slightly more bulk.
Keldeo isn't just a one-trick pony, however (hehehehehe). Keldeo also tanks hits from, and can defeat:
Donphan: Not guaranteed, but the chance of winning is in your favor
Landorus-Therian: The EVs creep max speed Jolly Landorus
Mega Gyarados: HP Electric + Z-Secret Sword KOes no matter what, and Gyarados can't KO back
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 60+ Def Keldeo: 228-269 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard X: Keldeo can win against Adamant DDance and, with some prediction, Bulky Zard X
Porygon-Z: If you're not Scarf, you die, simple as that
and Mega Aggron
It also beats a lot of B tier stuff
not even bad tbh
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Why, I am feeling like a becoming a cteaming SOB like all the good players in the meta!! Screw PU mons, imma try Keldeo.
,
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 60 Def Keldeo: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
what a great counter.
you know i'm really curious why people say stuff like "kyub has no counters". in standard ladder play you're only really facing icium and scarf, so yes, it does have counters. big deal if you get lured by electrium or whatever the fuck. in tournament play it's different but there's not enough high level tournament play for this tier so it really doesn't matter.
kyurem isn't really unhealthily versatile imo. yes it's good and can lure in a lot of stuff but it's always missing something crucial when it's luring something in. if you're running groundium to catch mawiles or whatever you're missing out on a lot of the coverage icium provides, etc.
you also don't need to use dogshit like fightium keldeo to beat kyub. splashable mons like gyarados and like every steel type ever do a good enough job.
if you want an uncounterable beast look at krookodile.
A few things.
1. I explicitly stated Keldeo needs Bold nature. Did you even read my post?
2. So maybe Groundium and Electrium are horseshit. Yeah, I can agree with you. But Kyurem still has 5 viable sets: all three Choice items, Icium and Weakness Policy.
3. Even if you consider Scarf and Icium Z as the only viable sets, they beat over 70% of the meta together. Tell me if beating around 3/4 of the meta with just two sets is healthy? Now, factor in the other two Choice items and Weakness Policy, and the win counter rises even higher.
4. Krookodile sounds like an interesting pick, but calling it an "uncounterable" beast may be a tad bit of a stretch. If you make a post similar to TGC Disunited's Avalugg post showing how strong and underrated it is, that would be cool.
okay my bad i guess but in that case you're still using unoptimal evs. i guess i'm used to people knowing what they're doing when they ev their mons.
i really don't get the appeal of band myself as i don't see what it beats in particular. specs is really just a more niche zmove that's basically groundium, which you mentioned was dogshit.
you know what else beats a fuck ton of the meta with 2 items? charizard. but i don't see people going to the streets about charizard. other pokemon like pz can use different items to destroy their counters.
it's a meme. i'll make krookodile post one day, or not!
I'm actually tired of people throwing around the word Counter-teaming, or cteaming/c-teaming, randomly. Running sets to beat certain things, whilst patching up holes is not counter-teaming; it is logic. For example, if the team looks like it is weak to Dragonite, and then you get hit by Hidden Power Steel Greninja, it isn't Counter-teaming you. That's just a creative way to beat something it shouldn't.
Counterteaming is...
[21:38:33] ace4r ladders: countering
[21:38:38] ace4r ladders: thats all you got to put
Example, oof here comes a team; Rhyperior, Meloetta, Charizard Mega Y. Oh darn, I dun lost to Rock Wrecker Rhyperior. Let's run LO Rock Slide, Shadow Sneak, Surf Greninja.
Another example, oof here comes a team; Donphan, T-t-t-t-t-apu Fini, Genesect. Oh darn, my dude outpredicted my Tapu Koko with that phat elephat. Let's run Air Balloon Tapu Koko.
Counter-teaming doesn't have to mean beating a full team with something whack, though that is the main part, but also tweaking things to gain a favorable matchup that normally would not be run.
Counterteaming is...
[21:38:33] ace4r ladders: countering
[21:38:38] ace4r ladders: thats all you got to put
Example, oof here comes a team; Rhyperior, Meloetta, Charizard Mega Y. Oh darn, I dun lost to Rock Wrecker Rhyperior. Let's run LO Rock Slide, Shadow Sneak, Surf Greninja.
Another example, oof here comes a team; Donphan, T-t-t-t-t-apu Fini, Genesect. Oh darn, my dude outpredicted my Tapu Koko with that phat elephat. Let's run Air Balloon Tapu Koko.
Counter-teaming doesn't have to mean beating a full team with something whack, though that is the main part, but also tweaking things to gain a favorable matchup that normally would not be run.
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Even more things.
1. Most good players around here consider Band and Specs to be perfectly fine sets that can both beat lots of things, and even defeat some conventional answers to Scarf and Icium Z (Specs beats bulkier Crustle variants no matter what) On the other hand, Electrium and Groundium are just kinda trash, sacrificing reliability for cheese wins. Also, the two Choice sets have much, MUCH greater combined usage than the gimmicky Z-move lures.
2. While what you say about Charizard's mega stones is true, Mega Charizard X and Y are counted as different Pokemon on the viability rankings and in usage stats, and are judged as such. Also, it's fairly easy to guess what Charizard form it'll be just by looking at the opponent's team: For example, if they have a gimmick staller like Jumpluff and a physical attacker, it'll most likely be Zard Y. It's much harder to do this with Kyurem-Black due to it's sheer amount of options.
i don't know what you're trying to say here. yeah they're valid sets, i never said they weren't. the'y just cant cover as much as icium / scarf can. they do cover things that scarf / icium can't but overall they're not as consistent.
i mean they're still both charizard. at the end of the day they're not really different pokemon. some random resource shouldn't dictate everything.
your point on guessing is stupid. i really don't see what base you have on the jumpluff point. jumpluff + charizard x + physical attacker isn't some solid and common archetype. it can be y just as well as it can be x. you're also basing that argument on the fact that your opponent has a competent and solid team which covers the meta nicely. this really is a lot to guess because the 1v1 ladder is filled with bad teams + counterteaming. it's also not really too hard to guess the kyurem set by your logic. if they struggle with threats like venusaur then it's probably icium, and if their mawile check seems to be the x button it could be specs.
That was intended to be Zard Y, not X. Sorry about that!
my point still stands. in fact that style seems worse with zard y as it seems koko weak.
Keldeo could definitely see more use. I'll probably do some testing with it. One change I would make to the set would be to switch the EVs up to:
EVs: 152 Def / 124 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
By boosting your highest stat (spA) with the nature, you use EVs become more efficient. This spread lets you tank the exact same hit from Kyu-B, but you get 9 extra special attack.
Bold Keldeo: 254 defense, 348 special attack
Modest Keldeo: 254 defense, 357 special attack
Also, Focus Blast is definitely a good option if running Fight Z over Water Z
Thanks for the advice! I did originally have Focus Blast on this, but I switched to Secret Sword, since it still got the job done well and is far more reliable if your opponent uses Protect/outspeeds and subs.
Why Am I D Tier?
No, really. Why is Mega Scizor D Tier? You're telling me that this guy is on the same level as donkey shit like Ambipom and Vivillon? Nah, I dun think.
Overview
Mega Scizor has very well-rounded stats, with awesome Attack and Defense, above-average Special Defense, and passable Speed. It's clear the best use for Mega Scizor is as a bulky attacker, and it does this job well. You may say it's just a worse Mega Mawile/Metagross, but Scizor has plenty of tricks up it's sleeve the other two offensive Steel types do not have. For one thing, it's trademark Technician Bullet Punch packs an impressive punch as always. Technician also boosts normally useless moves, particularly Aerial Ace and Bug Bite. Superpower is also a handy tool, easing it's match-up against Steel types like Aggron and Magnezone.
Scizor's biggest niche is in it's awesome defensive typing, securing easy SD set-up. The only exception to this is against Charizard, but you lose anyway, so it dun matter.
Match-ups against high-ranking threats
Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 32 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Aerial Ace/Bug Bite
- Superpower
We're gonna use this set for all of these.
Kyurem-Black: Scizor 2HKOs Scarf with Bullet Punch, it sets up in front of UOP Icium and Weakness Policy and wins
Mega Gyarados: Mega Scizor sets up, spams Bug Bite and wins.
Charizard: u die lol
Porygon-Z: If it isn't Specs, you win! The EVs allow you to survive Modest HP Fire.
Tapu Koko: electric terrain was an inside job
Tapu Lele: Win against Scarf, lose to Psychium. Also, HP Fire exists, so yeah, be careful about that
Aggron-Mega: Spell "Set-up fodder"
+6 180+ Atk Scizor-Mega Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 352-415 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite: u die rip
Magearna: You win! Specs Aura Sphere fails to 2HKO, so you can set up, Superpower and then Bullet Punch.
Mawile: Similar case to Magearna, just be wary of Fire Fang
Mega Metagross: You winunless the opponent pulls HP Fire out of their ass
Pinsir-Mega: win
Aegislash: Doesn't exist and never will
Donphan: Also doesn't exist
Landorus-Therian: Still doesn't exist
Magnezone: 50/50
Mimikyu: Yeah that's right fucking die bitch-ass curse cockface
Mega Slowbro: Lose if Aerial Ace, but if you have Bug Bite, you can win: However, Scald burns are a thing, so it's kinda rng-based
Mega Venusaur: ez pz win, Speed EVs allow you to win Charm stall wars
So yeah, Scizor ain't perfect, but I don't see why it's ranked so low. It does impressively well as a Bulky SDer, being able to muscle past certain mons with the right move. It's honestly one of my favorites, and I recommend you try it, too.
No, really. Why is Mega Scizor D Tier? You're telling me that this guy is on the same level as donkey shit like Ambipom and Vivillon? Nah, I dun think.
Overview
Mega Scizor has very well-rounded stats, with awesome Attack and Defense, above-average Special Defense, and passable Speed. It's clear the best use for Mega Scizor is as a bulky attacker, and it does this job well. You may say it's just a worse Mega Mawile/Metagross, but Scizor has plenty of tricks up it's sleeve the other two offensive Steel types do not have. For one thing, it's trademark Technician Bullet Punch packs an impressive punch as always. Technician also boosts normally useless moves, particularly Aerial Ace and Bug Bite. Superpower is also a handy tool, easing it's match-up against Steel types like Aggron and Magnezone.
Scizor's biggest niche is in it's awesome defensive typing, securing easy SD set-up. The only exception to this is against Charizard, but you lose anyway, so it dun matter.
Match-ups against high-ranking threats
Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 32 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Aerial Ace/Bug Bite
- Superpower
We're gonna use this set for all of these.
Kyurem-Black: Scizor 2HKOs Scarf with Bullet Punch, it sets up in front of UOP Icium and Weakness Policy and wins
Mega Gyarados: Mega Scizor sets up, spams Bug Bite and wins.
Charizard: u die lol
Porygon-Z: If it isn't Specs, you win! The EVs allow you to survive Modest HP Fire.
Tapu Koko: electric terrain was an inside job
Tapu Lele: Win against Scarf, lose to Psychium. Also, HP Fire exists, so yeah, be careful about that
Aggron-Mega: Spell "Set-up fodder"
+6 180+ Atk Scizor-Mega Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 352-415 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite: u die rip
Magearna: You win! Specs Aura Sphere fails to 2HKO, so you can set up, Superpower and then Bullet Punch.
Mawile: Similar case to Magearna, just be wary of Fire Fang
Mega Metagross: You win
Pinsir-Mega: win
Aegislash: Doesn't exist and never will
Donphan: Also doesn't exist
Landorus-Therian: Still doesn't exist
Magnezone: 50/50
Mimikyu: Yeah that's right fucking die bitch-ass curse cockface
Mega Slowbro: Lose if Aerial Ace, but if you have Bug Bite, you can win: However, Scald burns are a thing, so it's kinda rng-based
Mega Venusaur: ez pz win, Speed EVs allow you to win Charm stall wars
So yeah, Scizor ain't perfect, but I don't see why it's ranked so low. It does impressively well as a Bulky SDer, being able to muscle past certain mons with the right move. It's honestly one of my favorites, and I recommend you try it, too.
Mega Gyarados: Pretty sure Gyarados just stays regular and Dragon Dances the first turn, then wins with regular Waterfall + Mega Waterfall.
Porygon-Z: In 1630 stats, Scarf only accounts for 61% of Porygon-Z, so that's a big if.
Magearna:
Pinsir-Mega: Doesn't this just Bulk Up into Giga Impact for the win?
Magnezone: What's the 50/50? It has a chance to straight up KO with Gigavolt Havoc. Also, Specs sometimes runs HP Fire.
Mega Venusaur: you still end up at +0, which isn't much of a win in my book, especially vs. a Pokemon that frequently runs up to three moves with a health-restoring effect. That said, I'm not really sure about the specifics of how the match unfolds after Charm. (Also, Sleep Powder causes some issues.)
Even without the points I've raised, Scizor doesn't really reliably beat a lot. With any given set, it seems to only be able to reliably beat Kyurem-B, Aggron-Mega, Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross, Mimikyu, and either Mega Slowbro or Mega Venusaur. Genesect does its job better most of the time, though it does have a niche in being able to set up well, hence its position low in the viability rankings.
You have made another post that shows a deficient understanding of many matchups for the Pokemon you're promoting, so while I appreciate the enthusiasm (and the nice EV spread, tbh), please do some more in-depth testing next time.
edit: also, might as well take the time to plug my own Keldeo set, the most used last month on the ladder, largely thanks to UOP: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-and-underrated-sets.3592203/page-2#post-7233540
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Wrong thread lol, put that post after my half-asleep Yanmega farce in the Viabilty Tier thread
BUT SERIOUS COMMENTS NOW
Kyurem-B: You're forgetting special Kyub, especially HP Fire
M-Gyara: Why the hell would they Mega against a Bug-type
Zard: You actually got this right
Pory-Z: What about Download?
Koko: You just plain lose
Lele: Nice EVs
Aggron: You do realize that Aggron can attack and use Curse + Rest? Because it doesn't seem like you do
DNite: yup
Magearna: Wth man Magearna runs HP Fire
Mawile: Unless you're playing ELO Bandit's fast Maw...
M-Meta: Uhhh... some MMetas run defensive bulk
M-Pinsir: no argument with UC's logic
Aegi/Phan/Lando: You can't just ignore these in teambuilding, so why do you in your post?
THE ZONE: How the fuck is this a 50/50? If they misclick onto Mirror Coat?
The next three I have no problems with except for M-Slowbro WHICH GETS IRON DEFENSE AND SLACK OFF
tfw my own Scizor gets no recognization
I agree with your sentiment entirely, but have some decent logic behind it. Have some examples that even bad players like me can't immediately see the flaws in
I agree. For someone who knows a lot of niche sets about one mon, there should be a realization that more mons can run different sets for different mons that coincidentally hit other mons too. And HP Fire on Kyurem-Black is pretty bad; most competent players run at least some HP, at least enough to take it from "special scarf kyub" and also completely misses the KO on Scizor-Mega. Only specs HP Fire for not missing Focus Blast on Ferrothorn does something.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Scizor-Mega: 396-468 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Edit: Tapu Lele usually outspeeds Scizor-Mega with its Specs and 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Scizor-Mega: 396-468 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Edit: Tapu Lele usually outspeeds Scizor-Mega with its Specs and 2HKO.
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So now that Deoxys-Defense is toast, has anyone found success using Deoxys-Speed with a similar moveset?
PLS NO BAN (Deoxys-Speed) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Amnesia
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Taunt / Substitute
Alternatively: PsyZ, Cosmic Power, Rest, Seismic Toss
You only need a few speed EVs to outpace almost the entirety of the metagame - 52 evs puts you at 449 speed, outpacing the likes of Pheromosa, Mega-Alakazam, Scarf Lele/KyuB/PoryZ and any +1 speed base 100s without a boosting nature. You can use 212 speed EVs instead to outspeed +speed nature +1 base 100s like Jolly DD Zard X or Jolly Scarf Jirachi,but I don't think its worth using that many because you outspeed everything else already and you can't invest nearly as much into your defenses. I run 252 HP (use 248 if you have Substitute so you can use it 4 times) to max out bulk, 80 defense lets you tank a Blitz or Outrage from Jolly ZardX, rest of EVs get dumped into spD. Notably, you can take on Charizard Y far more reliably than Deoxys-Defense ever could thanks to your speed stat and available spDef EVs.
Amnesia vs special attackers, Iron Defense vs physicals. Recover (or Rest, if you're that afraid of Toxic) to heal off damage. Item helps with recovery - Leftovers work fine for me, but you could use a Pinch or Sitrus Berry for more immediate health back. Taunt stops enemy setup (DD, SD, SS, etc) as well as Leech Seed/status. You could Sub instead to help vs crits (since a crit will only break the sub rather than killing you) but I don't love giving up my anti-setup move.
Unpredictability Factor
Deoxys-Speed isn't shoehorned into a few similar sets the way Deoxys-Defense was. Instead of being limited to ID/Amnesia, CounterCoat, ZCosmic,and Scarf, Deoxys-Speed is able to run a couple different offensive sets to keep people guessing. Specs Deoxys-S works as a lightning-fast wallbreaker, KOing things that make the previously mentioned Deo-S spread scared. You can use Psycho Boost, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power [Fire] to outspeed and one-shot Heracross, Pheromosa, Genesect, Kartana, ScarfChomp, Koko, Mega Gengar, etc. If you don't like being locked into a move, you can also use offensive Psychium Z in combination with Psycho Boost, Taunt, Substitute, Calm Mind, or coverage of your choice. Defensive Psychium with dual screens / recover / psycho boost is also potentially strong.
Tell me what you think! Does this thing have potential in a gen7 meta, or is it just not powerful enough?
PLS NO BAN (Deoxys-Speed) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Amnesia
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Taunt / Substitute
Alternatively: PsyZ, Cosmic Power, Rest, Seismic Toss
You only need a few speed EVs to outpace almost the entirety of the metagame - 52 evs puts you at 449 speed, outpacing the likes of Pheromosa, Mega-Alakazam, Scarf Lele/KyuB/PoryZ and any +1 speed base 100s without a boosting nature. You can use 212 speed EVs instead to outspeed +speed nature +1 base 100s like Jolly DD Zard X or Jolly Scarf Jirachi,but I don't think its worth using that many because you outspeed everything else already and you can't invest nearly as much into your defenses. I run 252 HP (use 248 if you have Substitute so you can use it 4 times) to max out bulk, 80 defense lets you tank a Blitz or Outrage from Jolly ZardX, rest of EVs get dumped into spD. Notably, you can take on Charizard Y far more reliably than Deoxys-Defense ever could thanks to your speed stat and available spDef EVs.
Amnesia vs special attackers, Iron Defense vs physicals. Recover (or Rest, if you're that afraid of Toxic) to heal off damage. Item helps with recovery - Leftovers work fine for me, but you could use a Pinch or Sitrus Berry for more immediate health back. Taunt stops enemy setup (DD, SD, SS, etc) as well as Leech Seed/status. You could Sub instead to help vs crits (since a crit will only break the sub rather than killing you) but I don't love giving up my anti-setup move.
Unpredictability Factor
Deoxys-Speed isn't shoehorned into a few similar sets the way Deoxys-Defense was. Instead of being limited to ID/Amnesia, CounterCoat, ZCosmic,
Tell me what you think! Does this thing have potential in a gen7 meta, or is it just not powerful enough?
So now that Deoxys-Defense is toast, has anyone found success using Deoxys-Speed with a similar moveset?
PLS NO BAN (Deoxys-Speed) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 124 SpD / 52 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Amnesia
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Taunt / Substitute
Alternatively: PsyZ, Cosmic Power, Rest, Seismic Toss
You only need a few speed EVs to outpace almost the entirety of the metagame - 52 evs puts you at 449 speed, outpacing the likes of Pheromosa, Mega-Alakazam, Scarf Lele/KyuB/PoryZ and any +1 speed base 100s without a boosting nature. You can use 212 speed EVs instead to outspeed +speed nature +1 base 100s like Jolly DD Zard X or Jolly Scarf Jirachi,but I don't think its worth using that many because you outspeed everything else already and you can't invest nearly as much into your defenses. I run 252 HP (use 248 if you have Substitute so you can use it 4 times) to max out bulk, 80 defense lets you tank a Blitz or Outrage from Jolly ZardX, rest of EVs get dumped into spD. Notably, you can take on Charizard Y far more reliably than Deoxys-Defense ever could thanks to your speed stat and available spDef EVs.
Amnesia vs special attackers, Iron Defense vs physicals. Recover (or Rest, if you're that afraid of Toxic) to heal off damage. Item helps with recovery - Leftovers work fine for me, but you could use a Pinch or Sitrus Berry for more immediate health back. Taunt stops enemy setup (DD, SD, SS, etc) as well as Leech Seed/status. You could Sub instead to help vs crits (since a crit will only break the sub rather than killing you) but I don't love giving up my anti-setup move.
Unpredictability Factor
Deoxys-Speed isn't shoehorned into a few similar sets the way Deoxys-Defense was. Instead of being limited to ID/Amnesia, CounterCoat, ZCosmic,and Scarf,Deoxys-Speed is able to run a couple different offensive sets to keep people guessing. Specs Deoxys-S works as a lightning-fast wallbreaker, KOing things that make the previously mentioned Deo-S spread scared. You can use Psycho Boost, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power [Fire] to outspeed and one-shot Heracross, Pheromosa, Genesect, Kartana, ScarfChomp, Koko, Mega Gengar, etc. If you don't like being locked into a move, you can also use offensive Psychium Z in combination with Psycho Boost, Taunt, Substitute, Calm Mind, or coverage of your choice. Defensive Psychium with dual screens / recover / psycho boost is also potentially strong.
Tell me what you think! Does this thing have potential in a gen7 meta, or is it just not powerful enough?
I think there's potential here. Deoxys-Speed's main niche over other stallers like Mega Slowbro is it's huge Speed (duh) and potential for an offensive set, making it rather unpredictable. However, it's biggest fault compared to Slowbro and co is it's utter lack of natural bulk. Deoxys-Speed possesses a pitiful base 50 HP, and unlike Deoxys-Defense, it's defenses are not high enough to compensate for it. It has rely on prediction against set-up mons like Landorus-T (At least, the stall set does) and mixed attackers, and scarfers absolutely ruin it. And as you said, in order to outspeed +1 base 100s, it needs to run much more Speed, sacrificing needed bulk. That said, it looks like a nifty alternative for those who miss Deoxys-Defense. But we'll just wait and see.
Now I actually want to run some calcs and get a better idea of what this beats.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 160-189 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 90-106 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can safely Iron Defense against Lando turn one, and if they click SD twice, you can Taunt the third time. Point is, you outspeed and can always have the stat advantage for when Lando attacks. Once this happens, you can recover off damage, keep it Taunted, and stall out EQs. The same holds true for most enemy stat boosters.
Mixed attackers of the tier:
Kyurem-Black
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can comfortably lead with Iron Defense. If a Scarf Kyu-B is clicking Ice Beam, you can Amnesia the next turn and stall it out with Recover.
Tapu Koko
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed in Electric Terrain: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed in Electric Terrain: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed in Electric Terrain: 84-99 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can lead comfortably with Amnesia. Look at that thing tank gigavolt no problem! Even mixed Wild Charge isn't an issue if you ID turn 2.
Aegislash
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah he kills you. Maybe with Z-Cosmic you have a chance, but not ID/Am.
Blaziken-Mega
252+ SpA Blaziken-Mega Blast Burn vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Blaziken-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Turns out you can comfortably Amnesia to tank a potential Blast Burn or Overheat turn one, then patch up your Defense turn 2 for Stone Edge/HJK.
Lando-I
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lead with Amnesia and you're fine even if he spams Rock Slide.
Life Orb Mixtini
252+ Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Victini Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
--
96 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Life Orb Victini Overheat vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can pretty much just ID on the V-Create and Recover on the Overheat (if any Victini still run mixed). This is less of a threat than standard Band Victini.
Are there any other relevant mixed attackers? I'm not counting stuff like Psyshock because though it does hit the opposite defense, DeoS resists and never really has to worry about it.
Scarfers, you say?
Porygon-Z
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.
Kyurem-Black
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.
Tapu Lele
252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.
Lando-T
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope.
Genesect?
252+ SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. +2 252 HP / 124 SpD Deoxys-Speed: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest Scarf is still outsped by Deo-S. Specs is actually the best way around Deo, as well as the best Gene set overall.
Garchomp
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jolly Garchomp is one of the few able to 2hko, by barely outspeeding DeoS and dealing just enough damage.
Kartana
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kartana is also able to 2hko most of the time. Notably, both Kartana and Garchomp lose to a Counter from Deoxys-Speed if you feel like running that over ID.
Jirachi
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 80 Def Deoxys-Speed: 55-66 (18 - 21.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Maybe if you get really really lucky you can beat Deo-S.
There are probably a couple more relevant scarfers, but I'm too tired to keep running calcs tonight.
TO SUM UP:
Setup attackers, Mixed attackers, and Scarfers (with a couple exceptions) are much less of a threat to Deoxys-Speed than previously thought. The best counters are wallbreakers that can nail it super effectively (Z-Aegislash, Specs Greninja, Band/Specs Pheromosa, Specs Genesect, etc.) or outspeed and 2hko through a single defense boost (scarf Garchomp/Kartana). Toxic, Taunt/Z-Taunt, high crit rate moves, etc are also good ways to deal with Deoxys-Speed.
Well, looks like I completely underestimated Deoxys-Speed's natural bulk.
Y'know, I don't wanna look like the guy who screams "BAN BAN BAN" the moment something new and strong appears, but... This honestly looks kinda scary. For one thing, Deoxys-Speed takes Defense's problem of being able to quickly Taunt wallbreakers before they can Taunt it and brings it to a whole new level. The second fastest viable mon in the tier (Pheromosa) falls 29 points behind it. And sure, it may be kinda frail, but that really doesn't matter when you can instantly double your defenses before the foe has a chance to react. Besides, as shown, it's deceptively tanky even without boosts. What particularly troubles me is how two of the wallbreakers you mentioned (Specs Greninja and Band/Specs Pheromosa) can be lured and KOed with an offensive set, which is not completely out of the question.
Obviously, a quick-ban/suspect at this stage where it's little more than an idea is just ridiculous and dumb. But if it grows in popularity, I'm keeping an eye on it.
Y'know, I don't wanna look like the guy who screams "BAN BAN BAN" the moment something new and strong appears, but... This honestly looks kinda scary. For one thing, Deoxys-Speed takes Defense's problem of being able to quickly Taunt wallbreakers before they can Taunt it and brings it to a whole new level. The second fastest viable mon in the tier (Pheromosa) falls 29 points behind it. And sure, it may be kinda frail, but that really doesn't matter when you can instantly double your defenses before the foe has a chance to react. Besides, as shown, it's deceptively tanky even without boosts. What particularly troubles me is how two of the wallbreakers you mentioned (Specs Greninja and Band/Specs Pheromosa) can be lured and KOed with an offensive set, which is not completely out of the question.
Obviously, a quick-ban/suspect at this stage where it's little more than an idea is just ridiculous and dumb. But if it grows in popularity, I'm keeping an eye on it.
MaceMaster used something similar and it was underwhelming I can assure yuo this won't be broken
Very well, you're a smart dude, I trust your opinion. Besides, there's more ahem ahem ahem important issues at the moment cough cough hack wheeze
Yes, I'm still waiting for posts. Meanwhile, we can discuss other things too, like how Porygon2 still beats Kyurem-Black.
On a lighter note, because apparently, this is the trend, bring back Rhyperior, although it is pretty bad...
can we (Rhyperior) @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Avalanche
can we (Rhyperior) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Metal Burst
First set is standard band. Hits hard and tanks things it shouldn't. The EVs should tank Kyurem-B scarf Ice Beam and Z-Shadow Ball from 0 SpA Aegislash, which is the trend? The second set is the best bait you'll ever see. Tanks Solar Beam from Charizard-Mega-Y. That's all, have fun with them.
On a lighter note, because apparently, this is the trend, bring back Rhyperior, although it is pretty bad...
can we (Rhyperior) @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Avalanche
can we (Rhyperior) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Metal Burst
First set is standard band. Hits hard and tanks things it shouldn't. The EVs should tank Kyurem-B scarf Ice Beam and Z-Shadow Ball from 0 SpA Aegislash, which is the trend? The second set is the best bait you'll ever see. Tanks Solar Beam from Charizard-Mega-Y. That's all, have fun with them.
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Nice post dude. I'm always down with calcs.
Macemaster made this set, or one almost like it. I would argue his is cooler since it's dual screens.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-and-underrated-sets.3592203/#post-7233401
IIRC I quit using it because you die to like every critical hit. It's lesser bulk also gave me trouble because mons likeMega-Mawile and Mega-Metagross could outlast your Recovers. Deoxys-Defense could also run multiple sets, similar to Deoxys-Speed.
I think perhaps your Jirachi matchup is off. Scarf Jirachi could have Trick.
Koko's very much a series of 50/50s in Tapu Koko's favor imo.
I like Modest Scarf Lele myself.
I think Lando-T probably wins with Rock Tomb.
I promise you it's not broken. You could play 1v1 and find this out pretty quickly.
Almost forgot!
#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
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