Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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If Genesect is a problem, just run HP Fire on Scarf Kyu-Black:
252+ SpA Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 284-336 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Kyurem Black, eh?


More like...


KYUREM-BAN


What? Why?

Kyurem-Black has been one of the big boys of 1v1 since the very beginning. Incredible stats across the board, a lovely offensive typing, a solid movepool, and a huge ability in Teravolt that allows it to best Sturdy users with no effort. In short, it’s awesome in every single aspect. But over the past few months, more and more people have been questioning if it's a bit too awesome. So, is it? Did you read the title of this post, you dummy? Of course it is! And I'm here to prove why.

Let's start off by looking at those juicy stats.

View attachment 86841
Oh dear. This ain't too good...
Forgetting the obviously extremely high Attack stat, we also got 125/100/90 bulk. With proper investment, Kyurem can take STAB super-effective hits from Mega Mawile. MEGA. MAWILE. Kyurem is actually more bulky than Mandibuzz!
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 284-336 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I changed Kyurem's typing for the sake of comparison)


Something with this much raw firepower should not be able to do that. It also has 120 Special Attack, but we'll touch upon that later.

Now, let's take a look at it's offensive potential. Going off of physical movepool alone, this thing already hurts like a bitch. The lack of physical Ice STAB is compensated for by Icium Z boosting Freeze Shock to 200 BP. An Ice-type Self-Destruct that breaks Sturdy users while keeping you alive? Nope, don't see anything wrong in the slightest! Let's see how much Kyurem can hit with just Fusion Bolt, Outrage and Subzero Slammer.
View attachment 86842
So we got 5 super-effective hits against 5 fairly common meta types, and neutral hits against everything else. Again, nothing wrong here.
Those aren't the only tricks Kyurem has, though! Kyurem can also learn Earth Power, Focus Blast, Iron Head and Stone Edge. And this is where that 120 Special Attack comes into play. Let's assume that Kyurem had something like Gyarados, like, 70 Sp. Atk. Earth Power would become useless, and special/mixed sets would have no worth. But Kyurem instead has a Sp. Atk greater than Greninja and Tapu Koko, and only 10 points behind Tapu Lele and 15 points behind Porygon-Z! This adds an extra layer of unpredictability and versatility to an already incredibly strong Pokemon.

And here we reach my final point: Kyurem's versatility. Now, there's nothing wrong with being versatile: It's good. But there are instances of Pokemon being way too versatile for their own good. Kyurem-Black is one of these cases. Combined with it's stats, it has the potential to run a set to beat every one of it's counters. Mawile and Magearna a thorn in your side? Run Specs/Tectonic Rage! Scarf Outrage not quite picking up KOs on things you struggle with? Run Choice Band! The possibilities are truly endless, and a bright Kyurem player can cteam his/her way past nearly every Pokemon in the meta.

To show how strong it is, I made a little spreadsheet that highlights how much Kyurem can beat with merely TWO out of the countless possible sets. (It's actually technically three sets, but two of them are variations of the Choice Scarf so I'll count them as one)

The sets:​
1. UOP icium-Z (Kyurem-Black)
@ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 140 Def / 44 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Substitute
- Outrage



2. UOP Special Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power



3. Generic Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Here's the spreadsheet itself. Partial credit goes to TGC Disunited for setting up the spreadsheet and helping with some of the calcs, and to UnleashOurPassion for the movesets.

You can take your time to look at all of these calculations and match-ups in detail, but here's the important part:
White: Kyurem loses with both sets
Green: Kyurem loses with one set, but wins with another
Red: Kyurem wins with both sets
Yellow: Kyurem 50/50s with at least one set

Overall, Kyurem has the potential to win against 77% of the metagame with just it's two most common sets. Now, this isn't quite as absurd as Marshadow, who could beat almost everything with one or two sets, but this is still complete crap.

And remember: This is just the two most common sets. But Kyurem can do so much more. Here are some examples:
  • If Kyurem runs Specs/Groundium Z, it can beat Mawile and Mega Aggron, as well as turn the match-up against Magearna into a 50/50 (assuming it isn't Air Balloon or Shuca Berry)
  • Gigavolt Havoc/Band beats Fini guaranteed. (252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 386-456 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
  • While Jolly Scarf 50/50s, Adamant/Naughty Scarf wins guaranteed. (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 276-325 (101.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
Now, one could say that I'm grasping at straws and that none of these sets matter. But remember: You can't know for sure what Kyurem is gonna run. It's so versatile, that often, looking at the foe's team composition doesn't help. And I have seen all these sets in action at some point, some multiple times, so don't say they're rare or meaningless.

Another thing to keep in mind: There are plenty of mons out there that solely exist to defeat it. Like, what else does Genesect beat, for instance? Not much. A few things, but still not much. But yet lots of people use it because it beats Kyurem-Black. Terrakion is only decent in this meta. But yet, people advocate it's use quite a bit. Why? Because it's one of the few things that can consistently defeat Kyurem-Black. This is the kind of constraining effect that Kyurem's presence has had on team-building. It has forced the usage of Pokemon that should not be ranked the way they are ranked solely to beat it. Now that Deoxys-Defense and Marshadow are out of the way, it's time to finally tackle an issue that should've been tackled long ago.

Kyurem-Black. Ban now. Ples.
Allow me to elaborate on your points on Kyurem-B.

First of all, 170 Attack with Icium Z & Teravolt is a literal dreadnova-weapon that no one in the meta likes to take in the face. But we can see how Gamefreak decided to plug in some stupid coverage moves that are completely irrelevant to the theme of Ice Dragon: Fusion Bolt and Earth Power.

If one doesn't carry steel and don't have Suicune's level of bulk (I know Suicune isn't even relevant but), their mons' will just get blown up right away by Subzero Slammer, and if they believe in Water-type, Outrage will simply KO frail ones and Fusion Bolt will take out bulky Water-types with 2 hits at most. This leaves Impish Mega Gyarados and Tapu Fini as the only safest Water-types that can handle Kyurem-B. Did I hear someone saying I forgot to mention Primarina and Swampert? Well, Primarina needs 252 HP / 164 Defense to actually live +Atk Fusion Bolt so have fun losing to the rest of the meta, and Mega Swampert has to predict Ice Beam / Subzero Slammer or Outrage. It is still 50/50.

Fusion Bolt also makes Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B almost unbearable to deal with: Mega Charizard Y, before it uses Blast Burn or anything, will be zapped unless it carries 252 HP / 64 Defense which significantly hinders the power or its Speed tier, Mega Gyarados has to squeeze its brain trying to predict if it should use +1 Outrage against non-scarf variants or start using Outrage right away (Bulky variants live +1 Outrage from Gyarados while Scarf variants don't even die to uninvested Outrage and 2HKOs with Fusion Bolt outright). Earth Power is another random crap that popped out of nowhere; it just invalidates Steel-types such as Magnezone (which has 50+% chance of being OHKOed by uninvested EP), Special-oriented Kyurem-B 2HKOs Mega Aggron, and Mega Steelix is cleanly 2HKOed while it has hard time even 2HKOing back with Heavy Slam. Mega Mawile needs 252 HP / 224 Sp.Def to live Specs Earth Power which basically shits on itself against the whole meta and that gimmick falls to Groudium Z variants.

Also have you guys seen Weakness Policy set? Like it is the set that lives Specs Fini's Moonblast, Terrakion's Close Combat, Adamant Haxorus' Outrage, and Magearna's non-specs Fleur Cannon that lowers the speed and hits back super hard. This means stuff like Mega Metagross has to think twice and get some moves like Magnet Rise that is dedicated to beat Kyurem-B in its own flavor.

Just like Marshadow, these traits of Kyurem-B forces a defensive counterplay through a 'mon with good natural bulk instead of a 'mon with advantageous typing. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy gets looked over or suspected; but for now, I will rather see Mega Diancie's effect on the meta.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Allow me to elaborate on your points on Kyurem-B.

First of all, 170 Attack with Icium Z & Teravolt is a literal dreadnova-weapon that no one in the meta likes to take in the face. But we can see how Gamefreak decided to plug in some stupid coverage moves that are completely irrelevant to the theme of Ice Dragon: Fusion Bolt and Earth Power.

If one doesn't carry steel and don't have Suicune's level of bulk (I know Suicune isn't even relevant but), their mons' will just get blown up right away by Subzero Slammer, and if they believe in Water-type, Outrage will simply KO frail ones and Fusion Bolt will take out bulky Water-types with 2 hits at most. This leaves Impish Mega Gyarados and Tapu Fini as the only safest Water-types that can handle Kyurem-B. Did I hear someone saying I forgot to mention Primarina and Swampert? Well, Primarina needs 252 HP / 164 Defense to actually live +Atk Fusion Bolt so have fun losing to the rest of the meta, and Mega Swampert has to predict Ice Beam / Subzero Slammer or Outrage. It is still 50/50.

Fusion Bolt also makes Choice Scarf variants of Kyurem-B almost unbearable to deal with: Mega Charizard Y, before it uses Blast Burn or anything, will be zapped unless it carries 252 HP / 64 Defense which significantly hinders the power or its Speed tier, Mega Gyarados has to squeeze its brain trying to predict if it should use +1 Outrage against non-scarf variants or start using Outrage right away (Bulky variants live +1 Outrage from Gyarados while Scarf variants don't even die to uninvested Outrage and 2HKOs with Fusion Bolt outright). Earth Power is another random crap that popped out of nowhere; it just invalidates Steel-types such as Magnezone (which has 50+% chance of being OHKOed by uninvested EP), Special-oriented Kyurem-B 2HKOs Mega Aggron, and Mega Steelix is cleanly 2HKOed while it has hard time even 2HKOing back with Heavy Slam. Mega Mawile needs 252 HP / 224 Sp.Def to live Specs Earth Power which basically shits on itself against the whole meta and that gimmick falls to Groudium Z variants.

Also have you guys seen Weakness Policy set? Like it is the set that lives Specs Fini's Moonblast, Terrakion's Close Combat, Adamant Haxorus' Outrage, and Magearna's non-specs Fleur Cannon that lowers the speed and hits back super hard. This means stuff like Mega Metagross has to think twice and get some moves like Magnet Rise that is dedicated to beat Kyurem-B in its own flavor.

Just like Marshadow, these traits of Kyurem-B forces a defensive counterplay through a 'mon with good natural bulk instead of a 'mon with advantageous typing. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy gets looked over or suspected; but for now, I will rather see Mega Diancie's effect on the meta.
If you really wanna know Mega Diancie's effect on the meta, then it's not looking too hot. For instance, Modest Diancie doesn't even guaranteed KO Mega Gyarados with no HP/Spdef investment at all:
252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 320-378 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
And in order to beat Mimikyu, it has to get Diamond Storm defense boosts twice in a row (only once if Curse).
While Diancie has a niche in destroying certain types of Stall (Like Jumpluff), it often falls short of KOes. It's movepool is also quite limited. If it got Taunt, it could have a real niche as one of the best stall-breakers in the tier, but that's not the case.

While your post was a fine and dandy extension to mine, I disagree with you on that front. Personally, the idea of a Kyurem-Black suspect is a far more important and relevant conversation.
 
Kyurem Black, eh?


More like...


KYUREM-BAN


What? Why?

Kyurem-Black has been one of the big boys of 1v1 since the very beginning. Incredible stats across the board, a lovely offensive typing, a solid movepool, and a huge ability in Teravolt that allows it to best Sturdy users with no effort. In short, it’s awesome in every single aspect. But over the past few months, more and more people have been questioning if it's a bit too awesome. So, is it? Did you read the title of this post, you dummy? Of course it is! And I'm here to prove why.

Let's start off by looking at those juicy stats.

View attachment 86841
Oh dear. This ain't too good...
Forgetting the obviously extremely high Attack stat, we also got 125/100/90 bulk. With proper investment, Kyurem can take STAB super-effective hits from Mega Mawile. MEGA. MAWILE. Kyurem is actually more bulky than Mandibuzz!
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 284-336 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I changed Kyurem's typing for the sake of comparison)


Something with this much raw firepower should not be able to do that. It also has 120 Special Attack, but we'll touch upon that later.

Now, let's take a look at it's offensive potential. Going off of physical movepool alone, this thing already hurts like a bitch. The lack of physical Ice STAB is compensated for by Icium Z boosting Freeze Shock to 200 BP. An Ice-type Self-Destruct that breaks Sturdy users while keeping you alive? Nope, don't see anything wrong in the slightest! Let's see how much Kyurem can hit with just Fusion Bolt, Outrage and Subzero Slammer.
View attachment 86842
So we got 5 super-effective hits against 5 fairly common meta types, and neutral hits against everything else. Again, nothing wrong here.
Those aren't the only tricks Kyurem has, though! Kyurem can also learn Earth Power, Focus Blast, Iron Head and Stone Edge. And this is where that 120 Special Attack comes into play. Let's assume that Kyurem had something like Gyarados, like, 70 Sp. Atk. Earth Power would become useless, and special/mixed sets would have no worth. But Kyurem instead has a Sp. Atk greater than Greninja and Tapu Koko, and only 10 points behind Tapu Lele and 15 points behind Porygon-Z! This adds an extra layer of unpredictability and versatility to an already incredibly strong Pokemon.

And here we reach my final point: Kyurem's versatility. Now, there's nothing wrong with being versatile: It's good. But there are instances of Pokemon being way too versatile for their own good. Kyurem-Black is one of these cases. Combined with it's stats, it has the potential to run a set to beat every one of it's counters. Mawile and Magearna a thorn in your side? Run Specs/Tectonic Rage! Scarf Outrage not quite picking up KOs on things you struggle with? Run Choice Band! The possibilities are truly endless, and a bright Kyurem player can cteam his/her way past nearly every Pokemon in the meta.

To show how strong it is, I made a little spreadsheet that highlights how much Kyurem can beat with merely TWO out of the countless possible sets. (It's actually technically three sets, but two of them are variations of the Choice Scarf so I'll count them as one)

The sets:​
1. UOP icium-Z (Kyurem-Black)
@ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 140 Def / 44 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Substitute
- Outrage



2. UOP Special Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power



3. Generic Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Here's the spreadsheet itself. Partial credit goes to TGC Disunited for setting up the spreadsheet and helping with some of the calcs, and to UnleashOurPassion for the movesets.

You can take your time to look at all of these calculations and match-ups in detail, but here's the important part:
White: Kyurem loses with both sets
Green: Kyurem loses with one set, but wins with another
Red: Kyurem wins with both sets
Yellow: Kyurem 50/50s with at least one set

Overall, Kyurem has the potential to win against 77% of the metagame with just it's two most common sets. Now, this isn't quite as absurd as Marshadow, who could beat almost everything with one or two sets, but this is still complete crap.

And remember: This is just the two most common sets. But Kyurem can do so much more. Here are some examples:
  • If Kyurem runs Specs/Groundium Z, it can beat Mawile and Mega Aggron, as well as turn the match-up against Magearna into a 50/50 (assuming it isn't Air Balloon or Shuca Berry)
  • Gigavolt Havoc/Band beats Fini guaranteed. (252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 386-456 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
  • While Jolly Scarf 50/50s against Mega Lopunny, Adamant/Naughty Scarf wins guaranteed. (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 276-325 (101.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
Now, one could say that I'm grasping at straws and that none of these sets matter. But remember: You can't know for sure what Kyurem is gonna run. It's so versatile, that often, looking at the foe's team composition doesn't help. And I have seen all these sets in action at some point, some multiple times, so don't say they're rare or meaningless.

Another thing to keep in mind: There are plenty of mons out there that solely exist to defeat it. Like, what else does Genesect beat, for instance? Not much. A few things, but still not much. But yet lots of people use it because it beats Kyurem-Black. Terrakion is only decent in this meta. But yet, people advocate it's use quite a bit. Why? Because it's one of the few things that can consistently defeat Kyurem-Black. This is the kind of constraining effect that Kyurem's presence has had on team-building. It has forced the usage of Pokemon that should not be ranked the way they are ranked solely to beat it. Now that Deoxys-Defense and Marshadow are out of the way, it's time to finally tackle an issue that should've been tackled long ago.

Kyurem-Black. Ban now. Ples.
naming what kyurem can do does not provide reasoning for ban,

+ the "77%" of the metagame is mostly just C rank shitmons, grats

the fact that kyurem has versatility does not mean it is banworthy

a simple comparison is the fact that protean greninja has no counters in ou

the fact is, versatility is not enough to warrant a ban in any tier (gren in ou , kyub in 1v1)

while kyurem is incredibly powerful and restricts teambuilding, many centralizing threats exist in this tier

zards, mgyara, and tapu koko are just some examples of mons you absolutely must prep for

the fact of the matter is kyurem is nowhere near as overcentralizing or powerful as marshadow or deod were when they were banned

if it was really such a big problem it would have been banned ages ago
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
naming what kyurem can do does not provide reasoning for ban,

+ the "77%" of the metagame is mostly just C rank shitmons, grats

the fact that kyurem has versatility does not mean it is banworthy

a simple comparison is the fact that protean greninja has no counters in ou

the fact is, versatility is not enough to warrant a ban in any tier (gren in ou , kyub in 1v1)

while kyurem is incredibly powerful and restricts teambuilding, many centralizing threats exist in this tier

zards, mgyara, and tapu koko are just some examples of mons you absolutely must prep for

the fact of the matter is kyurem is nowhere near as overcentralizing or powerful as marshadow or deod were when they were banned

if it was really such a big problem it would have been banned ages ago
Oh hey, look, a dissident! This discussion was getting kinda boring with everyone agreeing with me.


"naming what kyurem can do does not provide reasoning for ban"
Yes, I did state what Kyurem does, but I also explained why this stuff makes it so overpowered.

"+ the "77%" of the metagame is mostly just C rank shitmons, grats"

A lot of the things Marshadow beat were C rank shitmons too. I guess Marsh actually defeated a lot less things then, clearly meaning it was balanced. kappa

"the fact that kyurem has versatility does not mean it is banworthy

a simple comparison is the fact that protean greninja has no counters in ou

the fact is, versatility is not enough to warrant a ban in any tier (gren in ou , kyub in 1v1)"

Kyurem is too versatile. Way too versatile. Again, it has a set for every one of it's checks. Almost nothing stops it 100% of the time. Greninja is also versatile, but has a noticeable weakness: It's frailty. Kyurem-Black does not have that fault, and unlike in OU, it can't be worn down with entry hazards, and you can't switch into something that beats the set the foe is running.

"zards, mgyara, and tapu koko are just some examples of mons you absolutely must prep for"

That is true. However, all three of those mons are much easier to prep for:

  • Typically, you can guess what Charizard form the foe will use judging by their team composition. E.G. If they have two special attackers, chances are it'll be Zard X. If you combine both forms, you get four sets: Fast DDance Zard X, Bulky Will-O X, Fast Wallbreaker Y, and the rare specially defensive Y. Only four sets to prep for.
  • Mega Gyarados has one viable set, being DDance. It can change up EVs occasionally to beat certain things, but it's counters typically remain the same.
  • Tapu Koko has three viable attacking moves: Thunder, Dazzling Gleam and Wild Charge. Also, it'll almost always be Electrium Z (Fairium Z is extremely rare and not worth imo)
  • Meanwhile, Kyurem-Black has Icium Z, Bulky Icium Z, Scarf, Electrium Z, Groundium Z, Weakness Policy, Choice Band, Choice Specs, Special Scarf and even Haban Berry. That's TEN different sets it can run. I may have even forgotten something, who knows. Point is, there is practically NOTHING that can take all those sets on at once. You often have to guess what set the foe is running. And I bet you even the best 1v1 teams probably lose to one or more of these sets.
"the fact of the matter is kyurem is nowhere near as overcentralizing or powerful as marshadow or deod were when they were banned"

I agree with the Marshadow point (I even said in my post Kyurem is not as bad as Marshadow), but when the hell was Deoxys-Defense ever super over-centralizing? Sure, it was annoying, and the ban was greatly appreciated, but Kyurem is far more over-centralizing and harder to defeat.


"if it was really such a big problem it would have been banned ages ago"

Right now, Magearna and Dugtrio/Arena Trap are both being considered for suspect in OU. Both of these have been around for nearly a year, so according to your logic, the OU council should just give up and let these Pokemon roam free. Sorry, but that's not how a metagame works. It takes time to get around to suspecting something. There were bigger fish to fry before Kyurem-Black, like Marsh and Deo-D, as well as re-testing things like Blaziken. Now that those issues have been taken care of, now is the ripe time to take a closer look at hands-down the most controversial Pokemon in 1v1.
 
Last edited:
Kyurem Black, eh?


More like...


KYUREM-BAN


What? Why?

Kyurem-Black has been one of the big boys of 1v1 since the very beginning. Incredible stats across the board, a lovely offensive typing, a solid movepool, and a huge ability in Teravolt that allows it to best Sturdy users with no effort. In short, it’s awesome in every single aspect. But over the past few months, more and more people have been questioning if it's a bit too awesome. So, is it? Did you read the title of this post, you dummy? Of course it is! And I'm here to prove why.

Let's start off by looking at those juicy stats.

View attachment 86841
Oh dear. This ain't too good...
Forgetting the obviously extremely high Attack stat, we also got 125/100/90 bulk. With proper investment, Kyurem can take STAB super-effective hits from Mega Mawile. MEGA. MAWILE. Kyurem is actually more bulky than Mandibuzz!
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 284-336 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I changed Kyurem's typing for the sake of comparison)


Something with this much raw firepower should not be able to do that. It also has 120 Special Attack, but we'll touch upon that later.

Now, let's take a look at it's offensive potential. Going off of physical movepool alone, this thing already hurts like a bitch. The lack of physical Ice STAB is compensated for by Icium Z boosting Freeze Shock to 200 BP. An Ice-type Self-Destruct that breaks Sturdy users while keeping you alive? Nope, don't see anything wrong in the slightest! Let's see how much Kyurem can hit with just Fusion Bolt, Outrage and Subzero Slammer.
View attachment 86842
So we got 5 super-effective hits against 5 fairly common meta types, and neutral hits against everything else. Again, nothing wrong here.
Those aren't the only tricks Kyurem has, though! Kyurem can also learn Earth Power, Focus Blast, Iron Head and Stone Edge. And this is where that 120 Special Attack comes into play. Let's assume that Kyurem had something like Gyarados, like, 70 Sp. Atk. Earth Power would become useless, and special/mixed sets would have no worth. But Kyurem instead has a Sp. Atk greater than Greninja and Tapu Koko, and only 10 points behind Tapu Lele and 15 points behind Porygon-Z! This adds an extra layer of unpredictability and versatility to an already incredibly strong Pokemon.

And here we reach my final point: Kyurem's versatility. Now, there's nothing wrong with being versatile: It's good. But there are instances of Pokemon being way too versatile for their own good. Kyurem-Black is one of these cases. Combined with it's stats, it has the potential to run a set to beat every one of it's counters. Mawile and Magearna a thorn in your side? Run Specs/Tectonic Rage! Scarf Outrage not quite picking up KOs on things you struggle with? Run Choice Band! The possibilities are truly endless, and a bright Kyurem player can cteam his/her way past nearly every Pokemon in the meta.

To show how strong it is, I made a little spreadsheet that highlights how much Kyurem can beat with merely TWO out of the countless possible sets. (It's actually technically three sets, but two of them are variations of the Choice Scarf so I'll count them as one)

The sets:​
1. UOP icium-Z (Kyurem-Black)
@ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 140 Def / 44 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Substitute
- Outrage



2. UOP Special Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power



3. Generic Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Here's the spreadsheet itself. Partial credit goes to TGC Disunited for setting up the spreadsheet and helping with some of the calcs, and to UnleashOurPassion for the movesets.

You can take your time to look at all of these calculations and match-ups in detail, but here's the important part:
White: Kyurem loses with both sets
Green: Kyurem loses with one set, but wins with another
Red: Kyurem wins with both sets
Yellow: Kyurem 50/50s with at least one set

Overall, Kyurem has the potential to win against 77% of the metagame with just it's two most common sets. Now, this isn't quite as absurd as Marshadow, who could beat almost everything with one or two sets, but this is still complete crap.

And remember: This is just the two most common sets. But Kyurem can do so much more. Here are some examples:
  • If Kyurem runs Specs/Groundium Z, it can beat Mawile and Mega Aggron, as well as turn the match-up against Magearna into a 50/50 (assuming it isn't Air Balloon or Shuca Berry)
  • Gigavolt Havoc/Band beats Fini guaranteed. (252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 386-456 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
  • While Jolly Scarf 50/50s against Mega Lopunny, Adamant/Naughty Scarf wins guaranteed. (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 276-325 (101.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
Now, one could say that I'm grasping at straws and that none of these sets matter. But remember: You can't know for sure what Kyurem is gonna run. It's so versatile, that often, looking at the foe's team composition doesn't help. And I have seen all these sets in action at some point, some multiple times, so don't say they're rare or meaningless.

Another thing to keep in mind: There are plenty of mons out there that solely exist to defeat it. Like, what else does Genesect beat, for instance? Not much. A few things, but still not much. But yet lots of people use it because it beats Kyurem-Black. Terrakion is only decent in this meta. But yet, people advocate it's use quite a bit. Why? Because it's one of the few things that can consistently defeat Kyurem-Black. This is the kind of constraining effect that Kyurem's presence has had on team-building. It has forced the usage of Pokemon that should not be ranked the way they are ranked solely to beat it. Now that Deoxys-Defense and Marshadow are out of the way, it's time to finally tackle an issue that should've been tackled long ago.

Kyurem-Black. Ban now. Ples.
Damn you for putting this up the very day before I was going to update the sheet with Lati@s, Ampharos, and Diancie ;(
But speaking in seriousness, FUCKING GREAT POST MAN and you have finally made a convert of me to the BAN KYUB side of things. (Also Genesect is good :( don't diss the insect)
And when I get back, I'll have the FINI-SHED sheet and some bait KyuB sets.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Damn you for putting this up the very day before I was going to update the sheet with Lati@s, Ampharos, and Diancie ;(
But speaking in seriousness, FUCKING GREAT POST MAN and you have finally made a convert of me to the BAN KYUB side of things. (Also Genesect is good :( don't diss the insect)
And when I get back, I'll have the FINI-SHED sheet and some bait KyuB sets.
Don't forget Altaria ;] Also the mega Latis suck ass so don't bother with them tbh
 
naming what kyurem can do does not provide reasoning for ban,

+ the "77%" of the metagame is mostly just C rank shitmons, grats

the fact that kyurem has versatility does not mean it is banworthy

a simple comparison is the fact that protean greninja has no counters in ou

the fact is, versatility is not enough to warrant a ban in any tier (gren in ou , kyub in 1v1)

while kyurem is incredibly powerful and restricts teambuilding, many centralizing threats exist in this tier

zards, mgyara, and tapu koko are just some examples of mons you absolutely must prep for

the fact of the matter is kyurem is nowhere near as overcentralizing or powerful as marshadow or deod were when they were banned

if it was really such a big problem it would have been banned ages ago
This post irks me for numerous reasons... pretty much every point here is either inaccurate or misleading. If you wanna make the point a Kyurem-Black suspect isn't needed, this is not the way to do it.

A) This counterargument holds zero meaning of whether KyuB needs to go or not. Pokémon like Carracosta, Nihilego, and Zygarde are extremely strong C- mons that me and many other players I hold in high regard have done well with. Lower viability simply doesn't equal shit mon, nor does it equal a mon that won't bite you in the ass if you leave it unchecked. The 77% is a very fair metric of determining Kyurem's viability.

B) Something being versatile is a very fair ban argument for something. If you want to use OU arguments, Mega Lucario was banned with almost these same arguments in OU, two different sets that together beat an unhealthy amount of the tier. In addition, versatility wasn't even the only focus of the post in question, so the point falls there too.

C) ???
Protean Greninja has many counters in OU. Magearna, Gyarados, and Celesteela are all considered pretty safe counters to base Gren. Secondly, even if you wanna believe Greninja is somehow as versatile in OU as KyuB is here, there's a clear difference between between 1v1 and OU. If your Ferrothorn gets bopped by HP Fire in OU, that's unfortunate but not a game ender. If your Mawile eats a Specs Earth Power from Kyurem, that's literally a game ended. Thirdly, why aren't you using the example of Protean Greninja, in you know, the tier we play? Possibly because the argument kinda falls flat when you realize Gren does the same things here as in OU, and yet, is widely accepted as not as versatile as Kyurem. But yeah, this comparison makes zero sense and falls flat even if it did.

D) Literally the same as point 2, see 'B'.

E) Marshadow beat less from preview, and was QUICKBANNED for its centralization. Again, there's very valid reasons against a KyuB suspect, however "Oh no other shit" isn't one, nor does it discredit the post you're arguing against.

F1) 77 percent.
F2) "oh no other shit"
F3) Things that beat Koko beat other large categories of things, like other hard hitting special attackers in a vein to Meloetta, PZ, etc. Or you know, they beat 77% of the meta like KyuB.

G1) Kyurem-Black is easily more powerful on the field than Deo-D at the time of its ban, stating otherwise makes it seem like you don't understand the Deo-D ban to begin with.
G2) 77 percent, yet again.

H)
Oh hey, look, a dissident! This discussion was getting kinda boring with everyone agreeing with me.
Right now, Magearna and Dugtrio/Arena Trap are both being considered for suspect in OU. Both of these have been around for nearly a year, so according to your logic, the OU council should just give up and let these Pokemon roam free. Sorry, but that's not how a metagame works. It takes time to get around to suspecting something. There were bigger fish to fry before Kyurem-Black, like Marsh and Deo-D, as well as re-testing things like Blaziken. Now that those issues have been taken care of, now is the ripe time to take a closer look at hands-down the most controversial Pokemon in 1v1.
Sorry for posting this after Yung Dramps made counters to your arguments as well, but felt I made a few good points myself.
Also, shoutouts to Yung Dramps for an amazing post and letting me look it over b4 posting, in all honesty it's pretty much brought me firmly over to the side of Kyurem-Ban.
 
Kyurem Black, eh?


More like...


KYUREM-BAN


What? Why?

Kyurem-Black has been one of the big boys of 1v1 since the very beginning. Incredible stats across the board, a lovely offensive typing, a solid movepool, and a huge ability in Teravolt that allows it to best Sturdy users with no effort. In short, it’s awesome in every single aspect. But over the past few months, more and more people have been questioning if it's a bit too awesome. So, is it? Did you read the title of this post, you dummy? Of course it is! And I'm here to prove why.

Let's start off by looking at those juicy stats.

View attachment 86841
Oh dear. This ain't too good...
Forgetting the obviously extremely high Attack stat, we also got 125/100/90 bulk. With proper investment, Kyurem can take STAB super-effective hits from Mega Mawile. MEGA. MAWILE. Kyurem is actually more bulky than Mandibuzz!
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 284-336 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I changed Kyurem's typing for the sake of comparison)


Something with this much raw firepower should not be able to do that. It also has 120 Special Attack, but we'll touch upon that later.

Now, let's take a look at it's offensive potential. Going off of physical movepool alone, this thing already hurts like a bitch. The lack of physical Ice STAB is compensated for by Icium Z boosting Freeze Shock to 200 BP. An Ice-type Self-Destruct that breaks Sturdy users while keeping you alive? Nope, don't see anything wrong in the slightest! Let's see how much Kyurem can hit with just Fusion Bolt, Outrage and Subzero Slammer.
View attachment 86842
So we got 5 super-effective hits against 5 fairly common meta types, and neutral hits against everything else. Again, nothing wrong here.
Those aren't the only tricks Kyurem has, though! Kyurem can also learn Earth Power, Focus Blast, Iron Head and Stone Edge. And this is where that 120 Special Attack comes into play. Let's assume that Kyurem had something like Gyarados, like, 70 Sp. Atk. Earth Power would become useless, and special/mixed sets would have no worth. But Kyurem instead has a Sp. Atk greater than Greninja and Tapu Koko, and only 10 points behind Tapu Lele and 15 points behind Porygon-Z! This adds an extra layer of unpredictability and versatility to an already incredibly strong Pokemon.

And here we reach my final point: Kyurem's versatility. Now, there's nothing wrong with being versatile: It's good. But there are instances of Pokemon being way too versatile for their own good. Kyurem-Black is one of these cases. Combined with it's stats, it has the potential to run a set to beat every one of it's counters. Mawile and Magearna a thorn in your side? Run Specs/Tectonic Rage! Scarf Outrage not quite picking up KOs on things you struggle with? Run Choice Band! The possibilities are truly endless, and a bright Kyurem player can cteam his/her way past nearly every Pokemon in the meta.

To show how strong it is, I made a little spreadsheet that highlights how much Kyurem can beat with merely TWO out of the countless possible sets. (It's actually technically three sets, but two of them are variations of the Choice Scarf so I'll count them as one)

The sets:​
1. UOP icium-Z (Kyurem-Black)
@ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 140 Def / 44 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Substitute
- Outrage



2. UOP Special Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 156 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power



3. Generic Scarf (Kyurem-Black) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Here's the spreadsheet itself. Partial credit goes to TGC Disunited for setting up the spreadsheet and helping with some of the calcs, and to UnleashOurPassion for the movesets.

You can take your time to look at all of these calculations and match-ups in detail, but here's the important part:
White: Kyurem loses with both sets
Green: Kyurem loses with one set, but wins with another
Red: Kyurem wins with both sets
Yellow: Kyurem 50/50s with at least one set

Overall, Kyurem has the potential to win against 77% of the metagame with just it's two most common sets. Now, this isn't quite as absurd as Marshadow, who could beat almost everything with one or two sets, but this is still complete crap.

And remember: This is just the two most common sets. But Kyurem can do so much more. Here are some examples:
  • If Kyurem runs Specs/Groundium Z, it can beat Mawile and Mega Aggron, as well as turn the match-up against Magearna into a 50/50 (assuming it isn't Air Balloon or Shuca Berry)
  • Scarf Iron Head Kyurem-Black beats Mega Gardevoir (252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 304-358 (109.7 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
  • While Jolly Scarf 50/50s against Mega Lopunny, Adamant/Naughty Scarf wins guaranteed. (252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lopunny-Mega: 276-325 (101.8 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
Now, one could say that I'm grasping at straws and that none of these sets matter. But remember: You can't know for sure what Kyurem is gonna run. It's so versatile, that often, looking at the foe's team composition doesn't help. And I have seen all these sets in action at some point, some multiple times, so don't say they're rare or meaningless.

Another thing to keep in mind: There are plenty of mons out there that solely exist to defeat it. Like, what else does Genesect beat, for instance? Not much. A few things, but still not much. But yet lots of people use it because it beats Kyurem-Black. Terrakion is only decent in this meta. But yet, people advocate it's use quite a bit. Why? Because it's one of the few things that can consistently defeat Kyurem-Black. This is the kind of constraining effect that Kyurem's presence has had on team-building. It has forced the usage of Pokemon that should not be ranked the way they are ranked solely to beat it. Now that Deoxys-Defense and Marshadow are out of the way, it's time to finally tackle an issue that should've been tackled long ago.

Kyurem-Black. Ban now. Ples.
1. Don't hate on Genesect :(. It's good.


2. Your spreadsheet is wrong about a lot of matchups.

Ex.
Charizard X vs Icium - Depends on EVs
Charizard X vs Scarf - Depends on EVs. The standard spread in gen 6 was made partly to beat scarf Kyurem-Black.
Tapu Koko vs Kyurem-Black - You lose to z-Fairy
Tapu Lele vs Icium - I don't think timid Psychium is very good or widely used.
Dragonite - Why would you use normal Outrage? Not that Dragonite wins or anything.
Mega-Pinsir - Depends on EVs, it's by no means an easy win.
Blaziken vs Scarf - On the VR, Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken are the same pokemon. Scarf loses to Mega.
Kartana vs Icium - Steelium Kartana
Meloetta vs Icium - Meloetta's usually slow.
Meloetta vs Scarf - ?
Tapu Fini vs Scarf - ?
Mega-Venusaur vs Scarf - ?
Ferrothorn vs Icium - It's worse than a 50/50 for Kyurem
Mega-Gardevoir vs Scarf - Kyurem learns Iron Head
Heatran vs Icium - Depends.
Jirachi vs Icium - ?
Jumpluff vs Icium - ?

etc.

3. The only other remark I think needs to be made about a potential Kyurem-Black suspect test is this:

It should not be allowed on the (potential) suspect ladder. We already know what it does. The thing that would be interesting to find out would be if the meta without Kyu-B is better than the current one.
 
Last edited:

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
KYUREM-BAN
Smh I told you to name that post "Cold Vibes"

+ the "77%" of the metagame is mostly just C rank shitmons, grats
I can tell you that there's a reason for several things to be A-Ranked. Just the simple fact that they beat Kyurem-Black give them a reason to be ranked up there.

There's another reason your argument isn't actually meaningful if you want to not ban Kyurem-Black. If you look at the VR, Kyurem-Black only loses to A or S rank mons which is proof that Kyurem-Black greatly restricts teambuilding!!

if it was really such a big problem it would have been banned ages ago
Wrong again, it's been an enormous problem for months but people simply lacked the confidence to bring it up. The threat of Kyurem-Black has always been there but for a few reasons it just wasn't worth discussing...
Who in their right mind would complain about Kyurem-Black with Marshadow running around being broken.

I'd also like to mention something several people said to me:
"Why suspect Deoxys-Defense before dealing with the real problem"
Deoxys-Defense wasn't more than annoying, while Kyurem-Black is a monster that needs to go

4 and a half months ago, I urged people to talk about Kyurem-Black. This time I won't do that.
Ban Kyurem-Black... Please!

Rumplestiltskin this is your time to shine... imo make a post
 
1. Don't hate on Genesect :(. It's good.


2. Your spreadsheet is wrong about a lot of matchups.

Ex.
Charizard X vs Icium - Depends on EVs
Charizard X vs Scarf - Depends on EVs. The standard spread in gen 6 was made partly to beat scarf Kyurem-Black.
Tapu Koko vs Kyurem-Black - You lose to z-Fairy
Tapu Lele vs Icium - I don't think timid Psychium is very good or widely used.
Dragonite - Why would you use normal Outrage? Not that Dragonite wins or anything.
Mega-Pinsir - Depends on EVs, it's by no means an easy win.
Blaziken vs Scarf - On the VR, Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken are the same pokemon. Scarf loses to Mega.
Kartana vs Icium - Steelium Kartana
Meloetta vs Icium - Meloetta's usually slow.
Meloetta vs Scarf - ?
Tapu Fini vs Scarf - ?
Mega-Venusaur vs Scarf - ?
Ferrothorn vs Icium - It's worse than a 50/50 for Kyurem
Mega-Gardevoir vs Scarf - Kyurem learns Iron Head
Heatran vs Icium - Depends.
Jirachi vs Icium - ?
Jumpluff vs Icium - ?

etc.

3. The only other remark I think needs to be made about a potential Kyurem-Black suspect test is this:

It should not be allowed on the (potential) suspect ladder. We already know what it does. The thing that would be interesting to find out would be if the meta without Kyu-B is better than the current one.
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Gardevoir-Mega: 242-286 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (yes this is a viable set)
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
1. Don't hate on Genesect :(. It's good.


2. Your spreadsheet is wrong about a lot of matchups.

Ex.
Charizard X vs Icium - Depends on EVs
Charizard X vs Scarf - Depends on EVs. The standard spread in gen 6 was made partly to beat scarf Kyurem-Black.
Tapu Koko vs Kyurem-Black - You lose to z-Fairy
Tapu Lele vs Icium - I don't think timid Psychium is very good or widely used.
Dragonite - Why would you use normal Outrage? Not that Dragonite wins or anything.
Mega-Pinsir - Depends on EVs, it's by no means an easy win.
Blaziken vs Scarf - On the VR, Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken are the same pokemon. Scarf loses to Mega.
Kartana vs Icium - Steelium Kartana
Meloetta vs Icium - Meloetta's usually slow.
Meloetta vs Scarf - ?
Tapu Fini vs Scarf - ?
Mega-Venusaur vs Scarf - ?
Ferrothorn vs Icium - It's worse than a 50/50 for Kyurem
Mega-Gardevoir vs Scarf - Kyurem learns Iron Head
Heatran vs Icium - Depends.
Jirachi vs Icium - ?
Jumpluff vs Icium - ?

etc.

3. The only other remark I think needs to be made about a potential Kyurem-Black suspect test is this:

It should not be allowed on the (potential) suspect ladder. We already know what it does. The thing that would be interesting to find out would be if the meta without Kyu-B is better than the current one.
Yeah, I noticed myself that some of the match-ups seemed off. However, there are a few things I would like to point out about this.

  • Fairium Koko's only viability is as a Kyurem-Black lure. Electrium Z is better in almost every other situation. If anything, this can be used as even more evidence of Kyurem's over-centralization.
  • Some of the sets you mentioned (E.G. Devastating Drake Dragonite and Steelium Kartana) only appear a bit of the time. Most of the time, these Pokemon lose to Kyurem unless they have these specific sets.
  • I am aware that Kyurem learns Iron Head and can beat Mega Gardevoir. I put that as a footnote in the "Lure sets" section. For this match-up, I used a Scarf set lacking Iron Head.
  • Meloetta V.S. Scarf: Outrage.
  • Venusaur/Jumpluff V.S. Scarf: Ice Beam. Venusaur loses to Special Scarf, a set I used.
  • Scarf may lose to Mega Blaziken, but it does win against regular, making it a win in my book.
All those other corrections seem accurate. Even if you take out those extra potential losses, you're still left with a very unhealthy amount of the meta that loses. And yeah, I totally agree with you on banning Kyurem-Black during a potential suspect.
 
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Yeah, I noticed myself that some of the match-ups seemed off. However, there are a few things I would like to point out about this.

  • Fairium Koko's only viability is as a Kyurem-Black lure. Electrium Z is better in almost every other situation. If anything, this can be used as even more evidence of Kyurem's over-centralization. Yeah but you still lose to it.
  • Some of the sets you mentioned (E.G. Devastating Drake Dragonite and Steelium Kartana) only appear a bit of the time. Most of the time, these Pokemon lose to Kyurem unless they have these specific sets. I'm just asking why you would ignore the best/most common sets of these pokemon in order to make your case better.
  • I am aware that Kyurem learns Iron Head and can beat Mega Gardevoir. I put that as a footnote in the "Lure sets" section. For this match-up, I used a Scarf set lacking Iron Head. You should probably think about running Iron Head. It's pretty good. It's not a lure set.
  • Meloetta V.S. Scarf: Outrage. Bruh, you're wrong.
  • Venusaur/Jumpluff V.S. Scarf: Ice Beam. Venusaur loses to Special Scarf, a set I used. I didn't say scarf, I said Icium for Jumpluff. Special Scarf is a worse set than physical lol. You might as well say Specs and Band and Sub Hone Claws win if you include random sets.
  • Scarf may lose to Mega Blaziken, but it does win against regular, making it a win in my book. They're the same pokemon in the VR, so it's not a win.
All those other corrections seem accurate. Even if you take out those extra potential losses, you're still left with a very unhealthy amount of the meta that loses. And yeah, I totally agree with you on banning Kyurem-Black during a potential suspect.
All your corrections are wrong!

You're making UOP look bad, man, and UOP's my boy. If you want Kyurem-Black banned, at least be factually correct. I'm not unsympathetic to a suspect test. You're just not making convincing arguments because you're getting your facts wrong.

#FreeDarkrai
#FreeZygod
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
All your corrections are wrong!

You're making UOP look bad, man, and UOP's my boy. If you want Kyurem-Black banned, at least be factually correct. I'm not unsympathetic to a suspect test. You're just not making convincing arguments because you're getting your facts wrong.

#FreeDarkrai
#FreeZygod
Woops. I should probably stop posting serious stuff right after I wake up...

I still stand by my point about Fairium Koko. Also, I know Iron Head Kyurem is perfectly viable, it's just that the scarf set UOP gave me to use didn't have it for some reason.
 
There's another reason your argument isn't actually meaningful if you want to not ban Kyurem-Black. If you look at the VR, Kyurem-Black only loses to A or S rank mons which is proof that Kyurem-Black greatly restricts teambuilding!!
Let me also add here that some Pokemon are on the VR simply because of the fact that they beat Kyurem-Black, which also furthers the fact that Kyub is so broken
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Woops. I should probably stop posting serious stuff right after I wake up...

I still stand by my point about Fairium Koko. Also, I know Iron Head Kyurem is perfectly viable, it's just that the scarf set UOP gave me to use didn't have it for some reason.
I was against the idea of using a set with 5 or 6 moves to prove a point, so I left out Iron Head in favor of Earth Power which I think is better
 
Apparently I'm bad at 1v1, but why does Fairium Z Tapu Koko count as a "lure", while Groundium Z and Electrium Z count as a "meta" set on Kyurem-Black? Also, take away Z moves from it; it is still bulky, but posing the same threat as it did in Generation 6 won't make it banable because it was much more manageable. Z moves are causing more of a problem.
 
Apparently I'm bad at 1v1, but why does Fairium Z Tapu Koko count as a "lure", while Groundium Z and Electrium Z count as a "meta" set on Kyurem-Black? Also, take away Z moves from it; it is still bulky, but posing the same threat as it did in Generation 6 won't make it banable because it was much more manageable. Z moves are causing more of a problem.
electrium and groundium are nothing but lures, fairium koko is just as meta as groundium or electrium.
 
Goodie, so does that mean that Magearna is now decent check to Kyurem-B, because most run enough SpDef to take an Earth Power anyways? And I don't even know what Electrium Z hits. Either way, I agree that lures should not be listed in Kyurem-B's sets to run.
ye magearna does count as a kyub check, and electrium hits mons like fini and primarina.
 
Goodie, so does that mean that Magearna is now decent check to Kyurem-B, because most run enough SpDef to take an Earth Power anyways? And I don't even know what Electrium Z hits. Either way, I agree that lures should not be listed in Kyurem-B's sets to run.
People talk about those sets like 15x more than I see them used. I've never seen z-Fusion Bolt and I've never seen anyone but Uselesscrab use Z-Earth Power. I've always said beating z-Ice and Scarf means you beat Kyurem-Black.

You're absolutely right that Z-moves are the reason Kyurem is a problem.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
People talk about those sets like 15x more than I see them used. I've never seen z-Fusion Bolt and I've never seen anyone but Uselesscrab use Z-Earth Power. I've always said beating z-Ice and Scarf means you beat Kyurem-Black.

You're absolutely right that Z-moves are the reason Kyurem is a problem.
Referring back to my Kyurem-Ban post, the entire point of those sets was to show that Kyurem can even beat various checks with the proper set, which further shrinks the already small list of true hard counters. Yes, they are certainly less common than Scarf and Icium, but they still exist. For instance, while I've seen Tectonic Rage only once or twice outside of testing, I've actually seen Gigavolt Havoc used several times on ladder, and it's caught me off-guard and KOed my counter everytime, at least the first time around. It's all a matter of perspective, really.

I feel deep down that you already understand this and agree with it, but I'm just making sure.
 
Referring back to my Kyurem-Ban post, the entire point of those sets was to show that Kyurem can even beat various checks with the proper set, which further shrinks the already small list of true hard counters. Yes, they are certainly less common than Scarf and Icium, but they still exist. For instance, while I've seen Tectonic Rage only once or twice outside of testing, I've actually seen Gigavolt Havoc used several times on ladder, and it's caught me off-guard and KOed my counter everytime, at least the first time around. It's all a matter of perspective, really.

I feel deep down that you already understand this and agree with it, but I'm just making sure.
You know Gyarados beats Z-Fusion right? And Fini and Primarina lose to Z-Ice or the superior Assault Vest/ Weakness Policy sets. Z - Electric was originally created as a shit meme and it's not good.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
You know Gyarados beats Z-Fusion right? And Fini and Primarina lose to Z-Ice or the superior Assault Vest/ Weakness Policy sets. Z - Electric was originally created as a shit meme and it's not good.
Huh. I seriously need to get out of low ladder it's fucking with my brain
 
People talk about those sets like 15x more than I see them used. I've never seen z-Fusion Bolt and I've never seen anyone but Uselesscrab use Z-Earth Power. I've always said beating z-Ice and Scarf means you beat Kyurem-Black.

You're absolutely right that Z-moves are the reason Kyurem is a problem.
To further this, Z-moves make this meta brain dead, ruling out many of these old things that we used to call "mind games." I agree that there are many gimmick Z-moves, such as Z-Focus Punch Weavile beating Heatran, Z-Fire Punch Ambipom beating Heracross-Mega, and Z-Ancient Power Yanmega beating Charizard-Mega-X, which are three things I've seen with my own eyes, but some Z-moves explode mons that weren't as viable beforehand to mons that are decent now. I know that there are many people advocating for a more diverse metagame, that mons that want to be viable should be viable if they please, but this is just making "being good" at 1v1 a big game of Counter-teaming. You snatch a win, switch anything back, and you can't predict what the hell will happen next.
It's as if you step into a minefield, avoiding each and every trap, but not knowing if you're safe or not. As aforementioned, Z-Freeze Shock gives Kyurem-Black the big bomb Ice STAB that held it from being broken last generation. However, many other mons get these bombs as well, namely Tapu Koko, Donphan, Tapu Lele, Dragonite, Tapu Fini, Mimikyu, Magnezone, Landorus, Pheromosa, and I'm sure the list goes on. But to say that Z-moves only help beat things it should and things it shouldn't is a ridiculous claim. Tapu Koko has a fair chance of beating non-EQ Charizard-Mega-X by just substituting and clicking Z-Thunder after all the Recoil. Mimikyu should not be pulling a 140 BP move out of thin air and fighting off slow Metagross-Megas. I'm sure there are many more examples waiting to be discovered. What really annoyed me today was a Tail Glow Manaphy killing Celesteela with Z-Surf, when +3 Surf doesn't kill Celesteela anyways.
Additionally, Z-Status has come up a bunch of times and makes 1v1 a house of tricks floating around. Main culprits are Z-Curse, which recovers Mimikyu to full health, Z-Belly Drum, which makes Snorlax a bigger threat than Custap and hard to stop anyways, and big boy moves like Z-Reflect on Tapu Lele, Z-Baby Doll Eyes, and Mew-Z-Psychic.
In general, this is a short post on my opinion on Z-moves, which, in general, make the meta much easier to play with the hyper-hyper offensive strategies and make snatching wins so much more basic. Did I mention you can't taunt them either? I will not place a final verdict on this; I'll let you decide on what you think.
PS: Kentari, if I interpreted your post terribly wrong, my apologies, but I will stand firm on my points in Z moves.
 
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