Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Nalei

one more year
is a Pre-Contributor
Damn it Smogon, why'd you unwatch me from the thread?
Let's take a look at all of Kyurem-B's generally accepted checks, and what can be run to beat them. Before we get started, we need to define counter. To me, a counter is a set/pokemon that wins against any viable variant of the given pokemon with one set, no predictions required. Does Kyurem-B have any counters? Let's find out.

Let's take a look at Gyarados' Kyurem matchup. This set beats the standard Icium and Scarf variants:
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 224 Def / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Yay, good check! But not good enough.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 244 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt

How about we run max speed and attack with an Adamant and Jolly nature simultaneously? That'll beat the above set.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant and Jolly Natures
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Nevermind.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Def / 248 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Maybe a bulky one?
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant and Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

No.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 92 Atk / 216 Def
Impish Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Or an obese one?
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

No.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 232 Atk / 140 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Yeah, maybe Gyarados isn't fit for beating Kyurem-B.

No time for tomfoolery. 3 natures, 1008 EVs.
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Impish and Modest and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam

Bye.
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze Shock

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam

No problem.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Specs
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 192 Def / 144 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic

On second thought, screw the standard, make that Fairium. Can't afford to run Modest or it loses to Jolly Icium.
Tapu Lele @ Fairium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 176 Def / 164 SpA / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast

Nope, Lele isn't gonna work.
Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 132 Atk / 164 SpD
Lonely Nature
- Icy Wind
- Iron Head

Let's start aggressive with 2 natures and 756 EVs.
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA
Modest and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn

Wow, actually had to use all of its EVs.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 HP / 48 Atk / 244 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt


As you can imagine, it goes on like this for a while, so let's talk about the few accepted "hard counters" to Kyurem-B.

This set actually has lots of extra EVs. I oriented it around what it would usually need and then filled it up in bulk and special attack.
Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 236 HP / 116 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon

Yep, that just happened.
Kyurem-Black @ Psychium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Earth Power

Good stuff, right?
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SpD / 132 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch

More Z-Screens.
Kyurem-Black @ Psychium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Reflect
- Roost
- Earth Power

Various fighting types such as Mega Blaziken, Fightinium Terrakion or Mega Heracross: Chople Berry+Outrage
Note: don't use Fairium, use Specs realistically. This is just for demonstration.
Tapu Fini @ Fairium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest and Bold and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast

Funnee joke.
Kyurem-Black @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam

16 EVs.
Kyurem-Black @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Iron Head

Seems good.
Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 92 HP / 24 Atk / 252 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Stone Edge

EV machine broke.
Kyurem-Black @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Teravolt
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast

Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge

Similar set to beat Fightinium
Kyurem-Black @ Charti Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 152 Atk / 124 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Iron Tail

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 124 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast

Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 100 SpA / 184 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Specs
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 80 SpA
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Fire]


So, I think it's pretty safe to say that there's no such thing as a hard Kyurem counter, even if you can get pretty close and make it have to run some weird sets to win. The only other pokemon in the history of 1v1 with no hard counters was Marshadow.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok now, you're all just being dumb.

Except Kentari.

You guys can theorymon a million and a half different Kyurem-B sets, and try to make one that just barely beats one of its usual counters. And so what? You completely fuck up your Kyurem-B so it maybe can grab a cheese win once against an opponent every 5-6 games.
Get good for god's sake. Electrium Z, Groundium Z, Psychium Z, Icy Wind, Reflect, and Light Screen aren't used gdi. Choice Specs, Haban Berry, and Weakness Policy are barely used, and these are actually good sets.

Be practical. Look at usage stats before you scour the potential item list, move list, before you create your ultimate set ask yourself is there any other reason I would possibly want to run this set.

And when you're listing checks and counters, please actually consider what is run on Kyurem-B. In July, there were 33724 Kyurem-B. Roughly 35 of them ran Electrium Z in the entirety of the ladder. Less ran Groundium Z. Less ran Psychium Z. Practically none ran Reflect or Light Screen. Less ran Roseli Berry or Charti Berry or anything like that. And there's a good reason for that. There's practically no reason to use Kyurem-B
at that point. I'd honestly use a C rank or D rank Pokémon instead because at least those Pokémon are somewhat interesting to use to do the same thing your KyuB is doing.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Damn it Smogon, why'd you unwatch me from the thread?
Let's take a look at all of Kyurem-B's generally accepted checks, and what can be run to beat them. Before we get started, we need to define counter. To me, a counter is a set/pokemon that wins against any viable variant of the given pokemon with one set, no predictions required. Does Kyurem-B have any counters? Let's find out.

Let's take a look at Gyarados' Kyurem matchup. This set beats the standard Icium and Scarf variants:
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 224 Def / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Yay, good check! But not good enough.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 244 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt

How about we run max speed and attack with an Adamant and Jolly nature simultaneously? That'll beat the above set.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant and Jolly Natures
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Nevermind.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Def / 248 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Maybe a bulky one?
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant and Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

No.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 92 Atk / 216 Def
Impish Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Or an obese one?
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

No.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 232 Atk / 140 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Yeah, maybe Gyarados isn't fit for beating Kyurem-B.

No time for tomfoolery. 3 natures, 1008 EVs.
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Impish and Modest and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam

Bye.
Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze Shock

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam

No problem.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Specs
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 192 Def / 144 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic

On second thought, screw the standard, make that Fairium. Can't afford to run Modest or it loses to Jolly Icium.
Tapu Lele @ Fairium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 176 Def / 164 SpA / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast

Nope, Lele isn't gonna work.
Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 132 Atk / 164 SpD
Lonely Nature
- Icy Wind
- Iron Head

Let's start aggressive with 2 natures and 756 EVs.
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA
Modest and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blast Burn

Wow, actually had to use all of its EVs.
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 HP / 48 Atk / 244 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fusion Bolt


As you can imagine, it goes on like this for a while, so let's talk about the few accepted "hard counters" to Kyurem-B.

This set actually has lots of extra EVs. I oriented it around what it would usually need and then filled it up in bulk and special attack.
Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 236 HP / 116 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon

Yep, that just happened.
Kyurem-Black @ Psychium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Earth Power

Good stuff, right?
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 124 HP / 252 SpD / 132 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch

More Z-Screens.
Kyurem-Black @ Psychium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Reflect
- Roost
- Earth Power

Various fighting types such as Mega Blaziken, Fightinium Terrakion or Mega Heracross: Chople Berry+Outrage
Note: don't use Fairium, use Specs realistically. This is just for demonstration.
Tapu Fini @ Fairium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest and Bold and Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast

Funnee joke.
Kyurem-Black @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 216 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fusion Bolt

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam

16 EVs.
Kyurem-Black @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Iron Head

Seems good.
Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 92 HP / 24 Atk / 252 Def / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Stone Edge

EV machine broke.
Kyurem-Black @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Teravolt
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast

Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge

Similar set to beat Fightinium
Kyurem-Black @ Charti Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 152 Atk / 124 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Iron Tail

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 124 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast

Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 100 SpA / 184 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Specs
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 80 SpA
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power [Fire]


So, I think it's pretty safe to say that there's no such thing as a hard Kyurem counter, even if you can get pretty close and make it have to run some weird sets to win. The only other pokemon in the history of 1v1 with no hard counters was Marshadow.
While I can see your point, Mace, I am unfortunately forced to agree with lost heros. Most of these sets are ridiculous, and completely wreck your match-ups against most other Pokemon just for the sake of beating one counter.

Here's a reminder to everyone making arguments against Kyurem-Black: DON'T GRASP AT STRAWS. If you wanna show that Kyurem can beat a counter, try to make a set that isn't completely dysfunctional. Again, I get what Mace was trying to do, but some of these are freaking insane. (Rock Tomb Roseli Berry? What the fuck?!)

A suggestion. Try to stick to the following items: Choice Band, Choice Specs, Electrium Z, Groundium Z, Assault Vest and Weakness Policy. NOTHING MORE. Also, make sure the EVs aren't too insane.
 

Nalei

one more year
is a Pre-Contributor
Okay, fair enough. Let's stick to what's reasonable. With that, we can get rid of SpD Magearna, Mega Metagross, Mega Gardevoir and Specs Genesect as counters because the sets they need to counter Kyub aren't "reasonable" or used often. This leaves us with 2 Kyurem counters: Terrakion and Mega Tyranitar. Honestly, my above post was kinda BS-y, and I think that covered up the underlying point (maybe I shouldn't write at 1 in the morning?). At team preview, you don't know what set Kyurem is running. So unless you have Terrakion or Mega Tyranitar on your team, there's really no assurance you'll win even if you predict that they'll use Kyurem. Fine, no one runs Groundium anymore, but as Dramps previously showed, Kyurem beats over 2/3s of the meta with it's most popular 2 sets, and I really feel this restricts teambuilding and makes good plays less relevant. Let's take a look at my last 3 teams: 2 of them have hard counters to Kyurem and the other has a pokemon that beats almost all Kyurems (SpD Magearna, Terrakion and Mega Lucario). I don't do this for no reason, I do this because when I don't, I lose to Kyurem for no reason. It's easy to make a team that beats all of Kyurem's relevant sets, but that's not enough when you can't tell what set they're running.

On a more lighthearted note, I would like to bring something truly horrifying to your attention: Thunder Wave Cursekyu
Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Curse
- Substitute
- Protect

Observe as it beats pokemon like Charizard, Genesect and Kartana which would typically beat Cursekyu by virtue of outspeeding.

Opponent breaks Disguise
Mimikyu uses Thunder Wave

Mimikyu uses Substiute until opponent gets full para'd

Mimikyu uses Z-Curse
Opponent breaks Substitute

Protect, Substitute...

The opponent has 5 opportunities to get paralyzed, but Mimikyu also has a 10% chance to miss Thunder Wave. This gives Mimikyu a 69% chance to beat any given pokemon that doesn't have Mold Breaker/Teravolt, isn't a ground or electric type, doesn't have sustain and doesn't have Taunt. Have fun! Or not because this is just like using Focus Blast which is no fun at all
PS: I didn't come up with this ingenious set. Someone in the 1v1 room did and I decided to turn the dream into a meme.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
I would like to deliver a sort of apology on behalf of the Kyurem-Ban crowd. Some of the theorymonning that we have resorted to to prove our point is ridiculous, gimmicky, and just plain stupid. A good portion of the sets we have listed, such as Electrium, Groundium, Fightinium and damage-reducing berries are dumb lure sets that cheese against a few Pokemon at the expense of potentially 50/50ing or losing against much more.

With that said, please, PLEASE do not undermine Kyurem's sheer borkedness. Even if you take the dumb lure meme sets out, you're still left with Icium Z, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band and Weakness Policy. That's FIVE sets in total. As we have stated many times, the first two sets alone beat well over 2/3s of the entire metagame. I don't feel like looking at the three other sets, but if you factor those in, there's a good bet that Kyurem's Win percentage could extend well into the 80s, possibly even the 90s. There are few hard counters to Kyurem, and even stuff like Magearna and Genesect require special EV spreads to guaranteed win 100% of the time. Kyurem-Black deserves a suspect without a single shred of a doubt. Hell, I'm sure there are some who wouldn't mind a quick-ban.

The point is, do not let some of the stupid things we have said dissuade you/change your opinion on Kyurem-Black. It is still way too good for the current power level of 1v1, and I seriously doubt that will change with US/UM.
 
At last, we are getting somewhere with this discussion and throwing away underused sets. Specs + Scarf + Band provide a threat, surely, maybe even a suspect test, but if we're narrowing it down to these sets, it isn't that hard to predict what does what. I don't think anyone has built "around" Kyurem-Black, per se, and as y'all stated before, it can cover multiple roles. You see a team terribly weak to Mawile-Mega, it's most likely specs or Weakness Policy. Even then, use your brain to guess around this WP set, sorry DEG. And if it isn't the set, well the Jokes on them, because then they lose to more things than they could. I appreciate UOP making that quality post about EVs and such, but if we're also shying away from wonky EVs, should we not shy away from those? In addition, another real problem about Kyurem-Black is its bulky offensive capabilities, which skyrocketed due to Z-Freeze Shock. Last generation, bulky Kyurem-Black was good, absolutely, but it couldn't have that raw power, just Outrage and Fusion Bolt mainly. Overall, it would be better if we suspected the bad Z-moves first, then, if Kyurem-Black still remains a threat, I will have no choice but to pick a side.
And yes, knowing the set does help you beat it...

With that, we can get rid of SpD Magearna, Mega Metagross, Mega Gardevoir and Specs Genesect as counters because the sets they need to counter Kyub aren't "reasonable" or used often. At team preview, you don't know what set Kyurem is running. So unless you have Terrakion or Mega Tyranitar on your team, there's really no assurance you'll win even if you predict that they'll use Kyurem. Fine, no one runs Groundium anymore, but as Dramps previously showed, Kyurem beats over 2/3s of the meta with it's most popular 2 sets, and I really feel this restricts teambuilding and makes good plays less relevant. Let's take a look at my last 3 teams: 2 of them have hard counters to Kyurem and the other has a pokemon that beats almost all Kyurems (SpD Magearna, Terrakion and Mega Lucario). I don't do this for no reason, I do this because when I don't, I lose to Kyurem for no reason. It's easy to make a team that beats all of Kyurem's relevant sets, but that's not enough when you can't tell what set they're running.
I just wanted to mention the following points on why this quote is not correct. I have edited out parts that are relevant. Metagross-Mega runs SpDef not for Kyurem-Black, but for a perfectly OK Z-Thunder Tapu Koko. Specs Genesect is good, and, although it doesn't run SpDef, shouldn't run into Hidden Power Fire very often anyways, based on usage stats. To add on, most Genesects run bulk to occasionally beat perfectly OK Z-Earthquake Donphan, so the 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 284-336 (82 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO bulk is placed in accidentally anyway. Gardevoir-Mega runs Max Def Max HP extremely rarely, but it is for Charizard-Mega-X. And as explained earlier by some dude, Gardevoir-Mega tanks an Iron Head most of the time because of Max Defense. This is mainly for Gyarados-Mega, as Gardevoir-Mega requires not much speed in the long run.
Now the real issue is Magearna. The more I read about these arguments, the more everything meshes together into a Venn Diagram; there are arguments that work for either proponent of the Anti-Kyurem-Black March and overlapping points that don't work together. The first thing was calling certain Z moves baits while others that Kyurem-Black used were not. I'm glad that was fixed. The other thing is this; we mess around with Kyurem-Black's EVs to beat up its threats. However, when other mons run EVs to beat Kyurem-Black, they are looked down upon. For example, SpDef Magearna is now "unreasonable", but adding SpDef to Kyurem-Black is perfectly OK. I can hear you already, "but potpic my hot friend, this just goes to show that Kyurem-Black can run EVs everywhere and still be viable!" This is true, but this can be applied to other mons too. Z moves enable this type of play style. I was going to bring up that you can simply bring Steelium or Farium Z on Magearna to beat Kyurem-Black and just use EVs to tank the Z-Earth power, as a counter-point to y'all screaming that Z-Earth power that tanks Fleur Cannon, but it seemed silly. And it still is silly. As silly as Z-Earth power. With Z moves running around, a lot of mons can afford to run less EVs than they normally do, for they are compensated with huge Base Power moves. I digress, but I'm glad we're moving away from this, too. Here are my thoughts on the recent postings, think of it what you will.


Usually, I light up the chat with my fire trash talk, but I am actually a relatively calm person. However, one thing makes me more livid than ever before.
52+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 68 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 195-231 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What is this calc, even, like I don't even know where you got that god awful Porygon2 spread, but don't disrespect my rubber ducky like that ever again.
Thank you, and I hope that issue is fixed for later.
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 226-267 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This calc is better, and Porygon2 just recover spams forever. So Porygon2 will win most of the time.
tl;dr--> am not convinced yet plz help and plz learn "it's vs its"
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
At last, we are getting somewhere with this discussion and throwing away underused sets. Specs + Scarf + Band provide a threat, surely, maybe even a suspect test, but if we're narrowing it down to these sets, it isn't that hard to predict what does what. I don't think anyone has built "around" Kyurem-Black, per se, and as y'all stated before, it can cover multiple roles. You see a team terribly weak to Mawile-Mega, it's most likely specs or Weakness Policy. Even then, use your brain to guess around this WP set, sorry DEG. And if it isn't the set, well the Jokes on them, because then they lose to more things than they could. I appreciate UOP making that quality post about EVs and such, but if we're also shying away from wonky EVs, should we not shy away from those? In addition, another real problem about Kyurem-Black is its bulky offensive capabilities, which skyrocketed due to Z-Freeze Shock. Last generation, bulky Kyurem-Black was good, absolutely, but it couldn't have that raw power, just Outrage and Fusion Bolt mainly. Overall, it would be better if we suspected the bad Z-moves first, then, if Kyurem-Black still remains a threat, I will have no choice but to pick a side.
And yes, knowing the set does help you beat it...
Sorry, but I do not like how you're constantly trying to spin the discussion away from Kyurem-Black and use it as fuel for a suspect/ban for z-moves as a whole. We already suspected them in the beginning of SM, they didn't get banned, and the community consensus is that they're not OP. But if you are so staunch about them being broken, here's what you should do:

1. Wait until a decision has been made on Kyurem-Black. In the meantime, try to actually contribute to the discussion instead of saying "Kyurem wouldn't be broken if it weren't for z-moves ban z-moves they are op"

2. Once that's done, try to convince the majority of the community that z-moves lead to brain-dead play like you say they are. If it doesn't work, oh well, what can you do. If it does, move on to step 3.

3. When Z-moves are banned, promote a Kyurem-Black re-test.

Sorry for sounding aggressive, I'm actually willing to hear your opinion on z-moves if you can back it up with good evidence. It's just that you're trying too hard to change the subject to promote your own opinions on an un-related matter.
 
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Sorry, but I do not like how you're constantly trying to spin the discussion away from Kyurem-Black and use it as fuel for a suspect/ban for z-moves as a whole. We already suspected them in the beginning of SM, they didn't get banned, and the community consensus is that they're not OP. But if you are so staunch about them being broken, here's what you should do:

1. Wait until a decision has been made on Kyurem-Black. In the meantime, try to actually contribute to the discussion instead of saying "Kyurem wouldn't be broken if it weren't for z-moves ban z-moves they are op"

2. Once that's done, try to convince the majority of the community that z-moves lead to brain-dead play like you say they are. If it doesn't work, oh well, what can you do. If it does, move on to step 3.

3. When Z-moves are banned, promote a Kyurem-Black re-test.

Sorry for sounding aggressive, I'm actually willing to hear your opinion on z-moves if you can back it up with good evidence. It's just that you're trying too hard to change the subject to promote your own opinions on an un-related matter.
I missed a whole year of 1v1, so my apologies for not knowing what happened in the past. And I did address some Kyurem-Black points, like changing its EVs around, its checks that "don't check it," and its "reasonable sets." I guess we decided to read the first paragraph only. I sprinkled in Z moves because, first off, 1 of the 2 common Kyurem-Black sets has risen up in popularity as a Z-move user, and it apparently beats roughly half of the mons you mentioned in your list, and secondly, I needed a perfectly logical reason that certain mons would run x amount of HP, Defense, or SpDef. From my point of view, I merely stated facts about Z moves, and if it seemed partial, I would recommend reading other posts because this is neutrality at my finest. Z moves gave Kyurem-Black more raw power, more Counter-Teaming capabilities, and they can be used against it too. Yes, I did slightly spin off discussion in my post two posts ago, but this post definitely stayed on point. We can not discuss Kyurem-Black without mentioning what it and other mons can do to other mons and it, respectively, and this most definitely includes Z moves. If you wish to discuss freely without Z moves, or me mentioning their impact on Kyurem-Black, just don't mention Icium Z Kyurem-Black. I am open to discussing anything else, but I will pinpoint on what I want and flow with the tide.
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
A couple of nicely categorized things
Small correction to MaceMaster
Damn it Smogon, why'd you unwatch me from the thread?
Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge

Similar set to beat Fightinium
Kyurem-Black @ Charti Berry
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power
Terrakion can run substitute to turn that into a 50/50

Opinion on Z-Moves
Z-Moves are what make Kyurem-Black broken, I completely agree. But the opposite also holds true Kyurem-Black makes Z-Moves broken I disagree with the statement that Z-Moves dumb down the meta at all. I think that Kyurem-Black is broken and Z-Moves are not.

lost heros about people
Ok now, you're all just being dumb.

Except Kentari.
/me thumbs up

More opinion on Z-Moves
Now the real issue is Magearna. The more I read about these arguments, the more everything meshes together into a Venn Diagram; there are arguments that work for either proponent of the Anti-Kyurem-Black March and overlapping points that don't work together. The first thing was calling certain Z moves baits while others that Kyurem-Black used were not. I'm glad that was fixed. The other thing is this; we mess around with Kyurem-Black's EVs to beat up its threats. However, when other mons run EVs to beat Kyurem-Black, they are looked down upon. For example, SpDef Magearna is now "unreasonable", but adding SpDef to Kyurem-Black is perfectly OK. I can hear you already, "but potpic my hot friend, this just goes to show that Kyurem-Black can run EVs everywhere and still be viable!" This is true, but this can be applied to other mons too. Z moves enable this type of play style. I was going to bring up that you can simply bring Steelium or Farium Z on Magearna to beat Kyurem-Black and just use EVs to tank the Z-Earth power, as a counter-point to y'all screaming that Z-Earth power that tanks Fleur Cannon, but it seemed silly. And it still is silly. As silly as Z-Earth power. With Z moves running around, a lot of mons can afford to run less EVs than they normally do, for they are compensated with huge Base Power moves. I digress, but I'm glad we're moving away from this, too. Here are my thoughts on the recent postings, think of it what you will.
1. Z-Moves allow for the use of less Atk/SpA EVs than before.
2. This allows you to run more bulk and still pick up KOs
3. Your opponent wants to run more bulk to avoid KOs
4. He can afford to do so because dropped attack can still be reliable

The Z-Move EV equilli- I can't spell that word. - The EV thingy is balancing itself just fine.

Closing words
This isn't a quality post like you may be used to from me. Sorry bout that
 
It isn't just Kyurem-Black abusing Z moves. Hell, it only gets one that's decently decent. There are tons of other mons abusing Z moves, whether they need that extra power, extra time, extra health, extra stat boosts, or being extra gimmicky.
 
It isn't just Kyurem-Black abusing Z moves. Hell, it only gets one that's decently decent. There are tons of other mons abusing Z moves, whether they need that extra power, extra time, extra health, extra stat boosts, or being extra gimmicky.
Mega-Gyarados is still the best pokemon in 1v1, despite all that. So many pokemon wouldn't get used without z-moves. I don't think a commensurate amount of pokemon would become newly viable.

Just a few questions I haven't seen answered by you or Rumplestilskin or anyone really that would help convince me and others:

1. Do you think Tapu Koko and Lele are broken?

2. Or Lando-T or Donphan ?

3. Do you think that Z-Stockpile Quagsire is not a dank addition to the meta?

4. You really think people won't just run Gyarados and the Charizards and Metagross if you ban Z-moves?

5. Why would things be better?

6. Are you saying we should ban Acid Downpour? Do Scolipede and Salazzle really overwhelm the meta with Z-Poison Jab and Z-Sludge Wave?

7. Is the presumed increase in the viability of Dusclops worth giving up Z-Reflect Hoopa-Unbound, Z-Shadow Ball Aegislash and Z-Charm Blissey and Umbreon? What about Z-EQ Avalugg or Z-Draco Meteor Dragonite or Z-Smart Strike Kartana?

Ok now, you're all just being dumb.

Except Kentari.
Words to live by. At least in 1v1.

#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
 
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Edit: my favorite thing about p2 is not changing calcs and not recover spamming. also i love not clicking draco against kyub with my latias' or latias mega.





Mega-Gyarados is still the best
pokemon in 1v1, despite all that. So many pokemon wouldn't get used without z-moves. I don't think a commensurate amount of pokemon would become newly viable.

Just a few questions I haven't seen answered by you or Rumplestilskin that would help convince me and others:

1. Do you think Tapu Koko and Lele are broken?

2. Or Lando-T or Donphan ?

3. Do you that Z-Stockpile Quagsire is not a dank addition to the meta?

4. You really think people won't just run Gyarados and the Charizards and Metagross if you ban Z-moves?

5. Why would things be better?

6. Are you saying we should ban Acid Downpour? Do Scolipede and Salazzle really overwhelm the meta with Z-Poison Jab and Z-Sludge Wave?

7. Is the presumed increase in the viability of Dusclops worth giving up Z-Reflect Hoopa-Unbound, Z-Shadow Ball Aegislash and Z-Charm Blissey and Umbreon? What about Z-EQ Avalugg or Z-Draco Meteor Dragonite or Z-Smart Strike Kartana?
Some of the questions are weirdly worded so I'll respond the best I can.
Introduction: I thought we just had a bunch of posts trying to convince us all that Kyurem-Black is the best Pokemon in 1v1. I would give a couple ties to the "best" mon in the tier. Yes, I agree that Z moves give tons of mons new viability but it has also stretched the versatility and unpredictability as well. And yes, not as many mons will be viable; the ones that come to mind are Donphan and Landorus-Tiger.
1. I don't believe I've said that Z moves make the mons broken. I've said that they make the meta simpler to play and allow for huge variation in EVs, movesets, and counter-teaming. So, although Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele aren't broken and checked by certain mons, they can run more gimmicks to beat what they shouldn't. As an example, Tapu Koko can run that wonk UOP set with Z-Reflect to run back Metagross-Mega, and Charizard-Mega-X. Tapu Lele fits in the middle perfectly with its Psychium Z, with an option of either Z-Reflect or Calm Mind Z-Psychic. Additionally, these two mons probably would not drop down in usage, as Specs Tapu Lele is a great set, while Tapu Koko can probably pull a Balloon out of the new IT movie or run Choice Specs/Band.
2. Landorus-Tiger popped out of nowhere with its Z-Earthquake and Z-Fly. Now it soars in usage, able to chunk up some Ferrothorns, and, again, giving it raw power definitely did not have last generation. It is a Choice Band away from home. Donphan, among other Z move sturdy users, also gained the power it wanted to guarantee kills. Not to mention Z-Head Smash.
3. 10/10 super dank, idk what else to say, still loses to things it loses to, but also the Z-stockpile helps it out I guess.
4. They won't not of course. Because those mons are the meta. And coincidentally the generation 6 Meta. I'm not saying that we stay in Generation 6 forever, but we still have tons of new mechanics from Generation 7 to worry about, like Prankster, Thunder Wave, Confusion, and new Pokemon overall. There's nothing wrong with running the meta of course.
5. This Z move argument stemmed mainly from people complaining about Icium Z Kyurem-Black. Z moves add unpredictability and power to mons that didn't have it previously. One main thing that I see would be a decrease in people complaining about Kyurem-Black. There's nothing terribly better or terribly worse if they left; it just shifts the dynamic of the game from a pool of stuff flying around to a more predictable, safe meta.
6. No. I think I bolded the word bad in that one post that I brought up a slight possibility on suspect testing them. And that sounds wrong too, I probably should have said to test the good ones.
7. This question I do not quite understand, but judging by the Dusclops mention, I will give it to Karl lel.

In all, I, while reading my posts over and over again, do see my writing heavily biased against Z moves; however, it is more of my first impression of the meta not dissuaded by anything solid yet. In other words, to say I'm leaning toward one side is probably not wrong, but I haven't seen any reason to not. Yes, I do believe Z moves are powerful and help certain mons out tremendously because they are facts.
 
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DEG

Heh.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
No, we are not going to ban Z-move. It's a new gen 7 mechanic that we need to live with, I'd provide more arguments if you guys want other than "This is a gen 7 mechanics" since I have an opinion on that matter that is Pro-Z-Moves which is different.

Well, if one Pokemon is broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Pokemon should be banned. If multiple Pokemon are broken with a specific Z-Crystal then that Z-Crystal should be banned. Keep that in mind.
If Kyu-B is broken with Ice-z then we should look into Kyu-B not Z-moves
 
I can't argue with that; in that case, Z moves will never be banned. Maybe Karl'll pop in outta nowhere, but for now I guess I'll sit back and argue other points that show up. Or not, I guess I shut up some of posters with my shitposting xd
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Words to live by. At least in 1v1
I'm offended <3

anyway
Has anyone been using Tapu Lele lately? I feel like the usage went down by a lot for some reason.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Def / 88 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
So I wanted to bring up something which has been incredibly prevalent in the first cycle of 1v1lt, and maybe uncompetitive to the point of being broken, that being Curse Mimikyu.


CURSE MIMIKYU



So, Curse Mimikyu has only recently burst into the meta, for a number of reasons in my opinion, the main one being that the best variant of the aforementioned set only recently was brought to fruition, that not being shadow sneak curse or taunt curse, but Fairium-Z Curse Mimikyu with attack investment to boot, allowing Mimikyu to chip away with curse before finishing off foes with a Twinkle Tackle (from the base move Play Rough). This set allows Mimikyu to beat many many things in the meta, not including almost everything slower than Mimikyu without mold breaker or a speed lowering move, which is admittedly not very much, and in some instances said pokemon can lose to being OHKOed by Twinkle Tackle, such as Kyurem-Black, depending on the spread they are running. The use of Twinkle Tackle also allows Mimikyu to beat faster pokemon than it it wouldn't usually beat through the use of just smashing them for a 2hko on the follow up with Play Rough or an outright OHKO. Here is the set I am talking about (also I don't take credit for this set, I'm not sure who first used it, but I think it was Baleblaze correct me if I'm wrong):

Mimikyu @ Fairium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Curse
- Substitute
- Protect


and here is a hide tag detailing its match-ups against a few of the top ranked and most used threats in the meta, only outright losing to ZardY, and also detailing how it matches up well against a huge portion of things, basically everything slower than it

Almost everything slower than it through the combination of Curse+Substitute+Protect+Twinkle Tackle (only when the foe is at 25% or less usually)

252+ Atk Mimikyu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (only lose if u get the min roll basically)

252+ Atk Mimikyu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 222-262 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (using sub on flare blitz to chip and then twinkle tackling, or play roughing correctly on a sub since then its in rage of a twinkle tackle/play rough after a second sub)

Mimikyu loses to ZardY 100% of the time so no point even getting calcs

252+ Atk Mimikyu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 488-576 (107.4 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it can beat cube but most sets dont run a spread like this or they run more bulk, but more bulky spreads unless they have icium-z can not actually OHKO mimi anyway)

It loses to most Gyara sets (assuming they don't mega and get blown back by Twinkle Tackle turn1) unless they run no attack and are a bulkier DD spread, and even then its a roll in terms of being OHKOed or not, albeit in Mimikyu's favour:

+1 0 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 228-268 (90.8 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Gyarados-Mega: 278-330 (70.5 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Gyarados-Mega: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it also doesn't fair too well versus things carrying speed lowering moves such as rock tomb/electroweb


Anyway I want to know other people's thoughts on Curse Mimikyu because I'm not too experienced in 1v1 this gen, but from my understanding this only cropped up recently as a set but I've seen it a lot and its very very very good IMO.
 
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has only recently burst into the meta
Uh.... this post was made on December 12 2016. Curse Mimikyu had already been out a bit when he posted too. Just in the interest of accuracy.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-deoxys-d-marshadow-banned.3587523/page-3#post-7133115

You're also wrong about every matchup you mentioned. Js. In the interest of accuracy. I think I'll leave the corrections as an excercise to the reader.

Every iteration of Curse Mimikyu has been made by some random dude iirc. Including Curse Mimikyu itself.

Why is your example of Curse Mimikyu Adamant?

Not that I like Curse Mimikyu or anything.

#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
 
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dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Uh.... this post was made on December 12 2016. Curse Mimikyu had already been out a bit when he posted too. Just in the interest of accuracy.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-deoxys-d-marshadow-banned.3587523/page-3#post-7133115

You're also wrong about every matchup you mentioned. Js. In the interest of accuracy. I think I'll leave the corrections as an excercise to the reader.

Every iteration of Curse Mimikyu has been made by some random dude iirc. Including Curse Mimikyu itself.

Why is your example of Curse Mimikyu Adamant?

Not that I like Curse Mimikyu or anything.

#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
Ok firstly i run adamant because jolly isn't needed to outspeed anything and it allows mimi to beat tapu koko and ZardX more reliably, if it all in the case of the latter.

Secondly can u at least explain how all the matchups i mentioned are completely wrong, bc calcs+me actually playing people with the aforementioned mons dont seem to lie
 
Ok firstly i run adamant because jolly isn't needed to outspeed anything and it allows mimi to beat tapu koko and ZardX more reliably, if it all in the case of the latter.

Secondly can u at least explain how all the matchups i mentioned are completely wrong, bc calcs+me actually playing people with the aforementioned mons dont seem to lie
You do realize that Jumpluff also beats a lot of things slower than it? And doesn't die to Teravolt-Mold Breaker? And doesn't have to predict when an opponent will Z? And, most crucially, was NOT determined to be broken?
At least that's my take 'cause now that Marshadow is banned there's no real reason to run it over The Pluff.
Also you really need Jolly lmao
 
Ok firstly i run adamant because jolly isn't needed to outspeed anything and it allows mimi to beat tapu koko and ZardX more reliably, if it all in the case of the latter.

Secondly can u at least explain how all the matchups i mentioned are completely wrong, bc calcs+me actually playing people with the aforementioned mons dont seem to lie
1. Who runs 0 Atk Gyarados?

2. Zard X OHKOs you. It is also under no obligation to Mega-Evolve. It's also faster.

3. Timid Zard Y isn't that great. Mimikyu also has a chance using sub. Macemaster ran Flame Charge for Mimikyu.

4. Who runs bulky Kyurem-Black that's not WP or Z-Ice? They could also be max speed z-Ice or Scarf Iron Head. You can beat Z-Ice with Sub alright.

5. Tapu Koko can and probably should run bulk. It also has sub and Protect and Reflect.

6. You need to run Jolly.

#FreeZygod
#BringbackDarkrai
 
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charizard8888

Catch The Wave
is a Pre-Contributor
You do realize that Jumpluff also beats a lot of things slower than it? And doesn't have to predict when an opponent will Z? And, most crucially, was NOT determined to be broken?
At least that's my take 'cause now that Marshadow is banned there's no real reason to run it over The Pluff.
The thing is Jumpluff has only one set SubSeed Protect Stall so everyone knows that if you outspeed it and are powerful enough to KO it (like Scarf Kyurem-Black, Greninja, Porygon-Z, Koko, and every Grass type so it doesn't actually outclass Curse Mimikyu) then you can win but Mimikyu can have: Offensive Ghost Z, Offensive Fairy Z, Curse Ghost Z (less used), Curse Fairy Z, and Bulky Fairy Z by MaceMaster which defeats every Zard X (All viable sets) so you have to be both faster than it and bulky enough to survive to ensure victory which is why Mimikyu is a bit weird and is a different kind of threat than Jumpluff

And doesn't die to Teravolt-Mold Breaker?
Yeah it does but not always, its prediction based
Consider the following:
Vs

Say you're Bulky Icium Z
You win if they Twinkle Tackle on the first turn: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620113373
You lose if they Sub on your Subzero Slammer: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620113693 (Fusion Bolt and then Subzero if you predict they would Sub)
Same goes for Scarf: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620114176 (Special Thanks to Iron Crusher for helping)
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mimikyu: 197-232 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mimikyu: 163-193 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Unless Iron Head but for that you have to sacrifice Earth Power 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(And that too loses to MaceMaster's Bulky Fairy Z set 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 92 Def Mimikyu: 252-298 (83.7 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

So the whole matchup is prediction reliant
Also you really need Jolly lmao
So Adamant reaches 291 hm
Most Mega Gyarados and Rock Tomb/Electroweb Speed boost users (Some Donphan, Electric Z Magnezone, Mega Chomp) are EVd for outspeeding base 100 252+ Speed so that won't help Mimikyu
Would've outsped DeoD with Jolly but its gone now
It can predict and Sub on Heatran's Rock Tomb; If Heatran uses Flash Cannon on the first turn and Mimikyu uses Curse then it wins
With Adamant there's a higher chance of KOing Zard X with Fairy Z after Sub recoil damage even if Zard X is bulky well not if they are bulky and at the same time 252+ fast which I really like a lot because you can still win after using DDance even if other Zard X Dragon Dance against you + Guaranteed win vs Scarf Kyurem-Black if you predict that Kyub is Scarfed (No Mega Ddance)
Also I remember Kentari once said in the Discord chat: "Jolly Mimikyu sucks" xd

Besides all that, here's a Megazard X set which can be used to defeat Mega Gyarados most of the time (75% chance to win gg no re)

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Def / 104 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp

I tried
What we do here:
Mega Evolve ---> Dragon Dance ---> Will-O-Wisp ---> Outrage ---> Outrage
104 Speed ensures that Megazard X always outspeeds non Jolly Mega Gyarados
16 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

The battle
Zard X Ddance | Gyara DDance
Zard X Will-O-Wisp | Gyara Outrage +1 104+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 152 HP / 252+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
-6 on Burn
Zard X Outrage | Gyara Outrage +1 104+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 152 HP / 252+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
-6 Burn
Zard X Outrage 0 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
6 + 44 + 6 + 44 = 100 gg provided that Zard X survived 2x Outrage
Should mostly work against 2x Kyub Fusion Bolt and Porygon-Z Uproar taking sets which are filled on the ladder but can lose to Max Attack and some others that I'm not aware of, for more safety more investment in Def can be made by reducing some from Speed as 252 Adamant Speed aint used that much but for safety I EVd for that
 
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The thing is Jumpluff has only one set SubSeed Protect Stall so everyone knows that if you outspeed it and are powerful enough to KO it (like Scarf Kyurem-Black, Greninja, Porygon-Z, Koko, and every Grass type so it doesn't actually outclass Curse Mimikyu) then you can win but Mimikyu can have: Offensive Ghost Z, Offensive Fairy Z, Curse Ghost Z (less used), Curse Fairy Z, and Bulky Fairy Z by MaceMaster which defeats every Zard X (All viable sets) so you have to be both faster than it and bulky enough to survive to ensure victory which is why Mimikyu is a bit weird and is a different kind of threat than Jumpluff


Yeah it does but not always, its prediction based
Consider the following:
Vs

Say you're Bulky Icium Z
You win if they Twinkle Tackle on the first turn: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620113373
You lose if they Sub on your Subzero Slammer: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620113693 (Fusion Bolt and then Subzero if you predict they would Sub)
Same goes for Scarf: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620114176 (Special Thanks to Iron Crusher for helping)
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mimikyu: 197-232 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mimikyu: 163-193 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Unless Iron Head but for that you have to sacrifice Earth Power 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(And that too loses to MaceMaster's Bulky Fairy Z set 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 92 Def Mimikyu: 252-298 (83.7 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

So the whole matchup is prediction reliant

So Adamant reaches 291 hm
Most Mega Gyarados and Rock Tomb/Electroweb Speed boost users (Some Donphan, Electric Z Magnezone, Mega Chomp) are EVd for outspeeding base 100 252+ Speed so that won't help Mimikyu
Would've outsped DeoD with Jolly but its gone now
It can predict and Sub on Heatran's Rock Tomb; If Heatran uses Flash Cannon on the first turn and Mimikyu uses Curse then it wins
With Adamant there's a higher chance of KOing Zard X with Fairy Z after Sub recoil damage even if Zard X is bulky well not if they are bulky and at the same time 252+ fast which I really like a lot because you can still win after using DDance even if other Zard X Dragon Dance against you + Guaranteed win vs Scarf Kyurem-Black if you predict that Kyub is Scarfed (No Mega Ddance)
Also I remember Kentari once said in the Discord chat: "Jolly Mimikyu sucks" xd

Besides all that, here's a Megazard X set which can be used to defeat Mega Gyarados most of the time (75% chance to win gg no re)

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Def / 104 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp

I tried
What we do here:
Mega Evolve ---> Dragon Dance ---> Will-O-Wisp ---> Outrage ---> Outrage
104 Speed ensures that Megazard X always outspeeds non Jolly Mega Gyarados
16 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

The battle
Zard X Ddance | Gyara DDance
Zard X Will-O-Wisp | Gyara Outrage +1 104+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 152 HP / 252+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
-6 on Burn
Zard X Outrage | Gyara Outrage +1 104+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 152 HP / 252+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
-6 Burn
Zard X Outrage 0 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gyarados-Mega: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
6 + 44 + 6 + 44 = 100 gg provided that Zard X survived 2x Outrage
Should mostly work against 2x Kyub Fusion Bolt and Porygon-Z Uproar taking sets which are filled on the ladder but can lose to Max Attack and some others that I'm not aware of, for more safety more investment in Def can be made by reducing some from Speed as 252 Adamant Speed aint used that much but for safety I EVd for that
Well I mean, if the post I was arguing against had included any other Mimikyu sets... Yes, you can switch Mimikyu sets to beat things that Cursekyu doesn't, but those Mimikyus are kind of beside the point of the original post.
On a less argumentative note, that ZardX looks like a good bait set and Imma spam it on ladder until people read your post.
 
Ok, completely unrelated to anything that is going on right now, but I had to share these. The memes were good while they lasted...no one expected it, and I believe what TDA told me a while back is true. If you find a super good team that no one is prepared for, you just blitzkrieg the ladder and easy 50-200 ELO (depending on where you are of course).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620291910
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620291026
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620292351
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620293505
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-620294266

On The Grind (Meloetta) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Uproar
- Hyper Beam
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

HP Ice/Scarf was strictly for the Lando-T on the ladder, doesn't even kill but stops the Sub, but scarf is pretty okay as it is?

Rosalyn (Mawile) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Metal Burst

Anything special, Aegislash, Z-Hydro Pump Azu (yes, it's a thing), Tapu Fini, Hydro Cannon Greninja, etc.

Beta Stages (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Dance
- Counter

Literally clicks Counter on everything physical, including 252 Hammer Arm Mega Metagross, thing is a beast.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO, so a low chance anyways
 
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Been away for a while, here are some opinions.

Kyurem Black is definitely worthy of a suspect, and probably a ban. I'd like to point out a couple things, though. Electrium and Groundium Kyu-B are barely worth bringing up because the opportunity cost of not running a better item is too high, the usage stats are too low (<2% iirc), and the reliability of actually beating the things the Z-moves are supposed to bait is too low. Elec Z isn't a guaranteed win vs Gyarados and ground Z isn't a guaranteed win vs steels who can switch to Air Balloon or add spdef EVs.

So let's talk about the sets that are actually good:

Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 156 Def / 44 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Outrage
- Substitute / Iron Head / Earth Power

Alternative EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def /252 Spe Adamant/Jolly

With UoP's bulky version and the less common but no less terrifying fast version, Kyurem-B drops massive 200BP nukes off it's ridiculous 170 base attack capable of one-shotting virtually everything that doesn't resist it. If you go the bulk route, you're able to comfortably tank hits from Porygon-Z, Tapu Koko, and most physical attackers (even those that hit super effectively) before KOing with low to moderate offensive investment and a boosting nature. If you go the speed route instead, you improve your matchup vs other Kyurem while still beating most of the same threats. The takeaway here is that Kyurem can invest very heavily into defense and tank almost anything before nuking it into oblivion OR outspeed a significant chunk of the metagame and do the same thing unimpeded.

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive/Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Iron Head / Earth Power

Alternative EVs: Invest some SpA if you want a better matchup vs Golem/Donphan or want to use Draco Meteor to get around phys def mons.

Scarf Kyu-B deals with the faster megas and dragon types of the tier very solidly, as well as having a great matchup vs most Sturdy mons and stall/gimmick mons (Jumpluff, Whims, etc). The unpredictability factor attached to not knowing whether you're against speedy scarf or bulky Icium is a huge part of what makes Kyurem a pain to face. Using Earth Power will help you out vs Koko and steel or fire types while Iron Head works vs Tapu Lele and Mimikyu. Those pokemon do have the option to run bulk and tank this hit, but if anything the fact that so many do only underlines Kyurem's overwhelming presence in 1v1.

I'm going to skip over Band and Specs for now because you all know what they do (use the same moves but hit harder at the expense of a sky-high speed stat), because I want to bring up my personal favorite set - one that's just as viable as the previously mentioned, but with usage so low that no one expects it:

Kyurem-Black @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 236 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt / Roost
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Alternative EVs: You can invest more into atk or spA depending on what you're trying to hit. Gyara goes down easier with some Atk invest for Fusion Bolt, Maw/Steels/Sturdies drop with less effort if you invest more spA.

This set is so good for a couple reasons. First off, it beats nearly everything that Kyu-B normally beats - there's not much lost opportunity cost. Second, it beats a lot of the stuff Kyurem is supposed to lose to. Using Kyurem Black's massive defensive potential combined with an item that lets you destroy most everything if it procs, you can get past Mega Gyarados, Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross (if you're a little lucky), Magnezone (no one uses AB anymore), Twackle Mimikyu, Blaziken/Lopunny/other Fighting types, and several others. Getting hit with a Steel, Dragon, Fairy, or Rock move means you immediately pop whatever just hit you with your next attack (even with minimal offensive investment). Notably, you win mirror matchups vs any Kyurem that clicks Outrage vs you, and you tank +1 hits from Gyarados no problemo. Dropping an offensive move for Roost lets you juke out Mawile's Sucker Punch after its initial STAB fails to KO you, and Earth Power drops it the following turn. You do open up a weakness to spA invested ZardY, as well as special Kyurem variants, but they're much less common than Outrage spam.

On another note, similarly viable (though underused) sets include Haban Berry, Dragonium Z, speedy Draco Meteor/special attacker, defensive pinch berry, and Assault Vest. Kyurem-Black is versatility incarnate, and it doesn't rely on a single item or moveset to do incredibly well. It's number one in usage for a very good reason.

People above have mentioned how Kyurem beats 70% of the meta or whatever number, so I'm not going to spit those points out again. Kyurem Black is strong, it beats way too much with only a couple sets, and has viable options in many, many more. I'll probably vote to ban if when it's suspected.

~~

On a lighter note, here's Golduck!


Kappa (Golduck) @ Waterium Z
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 224 Def / 224 SpA / 60 Spe
Rash Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Aqua Jet
- Counter
- Substitute

Other options: Focus Blast, HP [Electric], Ice Beam, Disable
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 224 Def Golduck: 254-300 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 224 Def Golduck: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 224 Def Golduck: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 224 Def Golduck: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's actually good, I promise. Speed creep base 50s like Mawile, blow everything out of the water with Z-Hydro Pump, finish off Sturdies, Mimikyu, and low HP mons with Aqua Jet. As shown above, you tank important physical hits and can KO back with Counter. Substitute gives you a huge leg up vs anything using status, stat boosts, recharge moves, Outrages, Leech Seeds, Mirror Coats, etc. If you don't want to use the best move in the game, you can switch it out for something to help a specific matchup. Focus Miss, HP Electric, and Disable can all pressure a Gyarados into attacking you at +1, and Ice Beam is handy vs dragons and flying types. Oh yeah, and its super fun to watch ZardY start charging a Solarbeam in sun as you Z-Pump it out of the sky. Cloud Nine ftw
 
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IMMA MAKE A DECENT POST FOR ONCE

This post is about a Pokemon that is extremely underused for its level of viability, and no, I am in fact not talking about Miltank. It's about the icy aircraft carrier, Avalugg.

What makes Avalugg good?

Avalugg is good due to a few things, like:
1. STURDY
2. Incredibly low Special Defense + Mirror Coat
3. Incredibly high levels of physical bulk + Curse + Recover
4. Really good typing and moveset for a Weakness Policy
5. Not many people know what it does.

This last point is especially crucial, as so few people use it that not many people know how to counter it. But what exactly does it beat?
Just looking at the VR, it beats:
S: KYUREM- If physical, Avalugg wins by Cursing up and Avalanching
M-GYARADOS- If no Taunt, Avalugg wins by the same strategy as KyuB
A+: ZARDX- Avalugg wins by clicking Avalanche
PORY-Z- Avalugg wins by clicking Mirror Coat
TAPU KOKO- This is a bit trickier. You have to rely on predictions... and we all know I'm shit at those. But better players could pull this off. The basic idea is, Mirror Coat on a Z or Avalanche with less than 80% health... so you have to play the Sub predict game.
TAPU LELE- Mirror Coat, because I like to think that Sub Lele doesn't exist and Specs is supreme to all. If it is Sub, same strat as Koko applies.
A: M-AGGRON- uhhhh... let's ignore him
ZARDY- Mirror Coat or Avalanche. Your choice.
DRAGONITE- You have an Ice type move and incredible physical bulk. If you know it's special, Mirror Coat.
MAGEARNA- !dt Mirror Coat
M-MAWILE- Who uses this anyway?!
M-METAGROSS- god damn you steel types... Actually, you can win this with some luck and Curse. Just pray that they don't get Meteor Mash boosts.
M-PINSIR- ez win with my boy Avalanche
A-: AEGISLASH- Mirror Coat, or Curse up if it's Physical
DONPHAN: Curse and Avalanche
LANDO-T: YOU HAVE AN ICE MOVE OK
MAGNEZONE: Don't some people run Analytic??! That's your only hope xd
MIMIKYU: you win this with Recover and Avalanche
M-SLOWBRO: Mirror Coat is your only hope, fortunately it's a good one
M-VENUSAUR: you lose :( DAMN YOU LEECH SEED

And I think I'll stop there. That's 5/6 out of the top 4 ranks, with practically all of its counters contained there. It only gets better for the flat-topped behemoth as the number of physically bulky, physical attacking Steel types thin out.


oh yeah I forgot to include my set lol
Za Beast (Avalugg) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Curse
- Recover
- Mirror Coat​

This is a fairly standard Weakness Policy Avalugg, Curse+Recover for bulking up and AvalancheCoat for attacking.
EVs are max attack with the Nature in Defense to boost it more than any EVs ever could.
It's named after Avalugg pioneer and 1v1 GOD Ede "Za". Plus this thing is a beast when you see it in action.

OTHER POSSIBLE MOVES-SETS:
Gyro Ball: With its slow speed + Curse, GBall is a great choice for Avaluggs with more than one attack
Earthquake: For dem Z-Ground bait sets that beat the Steels
Superpower: For the Rock Tomb Heatrans amongst us. And don't forget about Ice Beam Z-Hyper Beam Porygon-Z.
Stone Edge: For bulky ZardX, this works wonders on those annoying smart people with Flame Charge. But who's smart in 1v1 anyway?
Z-Ground: as described in Earthquake
Z-Fighting: uh... I don't really see what this would beat, but Ede Za uses it sometimes
More than one attack: For coverage at the cost of recovery/stallbreaking

TEAMBUILDING ADVICE: Pair this with anything that beats those Steels and fast KyuB/Gyarados. I recommend Metagross-Mega, the infamous Scarf Genesect, and Landorus-Incarnate, in decreasing order of usage rates.

I seriously can't believe that no one posted on this thing before lol


T G C
 
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