Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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The fact that Blaziken and Power Construct were unbanned because the community thought they wouldn’t be particularly overpowered in the metagame (even ignoring the fact that, especially in Power Construct’s case, they developed into high-level threats) is itself extremely compelling evidence of the fact that the community is providing sufficient influence in leadership’s decisions.

If it’s “clause changes” in particular that you’re concerned about, and you really don’t care about Pokemon and abilities, maybe take a closer look at the means through which we ended up banning accuracy-reducing moves?

Overall, though, please stop with the sensationalist rhetoric about how the leaders are becoming so dictatorial, because that’s just plain false.

(Also, as an aside, I resent the notion that the leaders are not “actual representatives of the community.”)
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
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Moderator
If it’s “clause changes” in particular that you’re concerned about, and you really don’t care about Pokemon and abilities, maybe take a closer look at the means through which we ended up banning accuracy-reducing moves?
That's just a subset of moves that had enough support to completely skip being suspected, similar to Perish Song. And even if moves aren't something that would normally merit a suspect, the community still had to convince the leaders to remove accuracy dropping moves. I very much appreciate that we at least have power in words, but evidently, it isn't enough, seeing as to how things continue to be suddenly dropped on/taken away from us, such as Marshadow's quickban when the community was still highly divisive about it, which would normally merit a suspect, which is something you yourself just said we have influence over-

Overall, though, please stop with the sensationalist rhetoric about how the leaders are becoming so dictatorial, because that’s just plain false.
I apologize for upsetting you with that. My intentions are not to persuade people one way or another, rather, to report on what is happening to/in the 1v1 metagame, as well as point out possible flaws in arguments and logic. I will try my best to leave my opinions out of posts in the future.

(Also, as an aside, I resent the notion that the leaders are not “actual representatives of the community.”)
I'd paste a google link, but I don't know how to shorten those so have a dictionary definition instead-
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/representative
a : standing or acting for another especially through delegated authority
b : of, based on, or constituting a government in which the many are represented by persons chosen from among them usually by election

Most definitions suggest that a representative has to be chosen. So, by definition, you are a representative of whoever appointed you, not the 1v1 community.

Sorry in advance for that bit coming off a bit heated
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
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Moderator
*Ahem* Anyways...

Without any further ado, let's discuss why Jirachi could be unhealthy to the current metagame


1. It takes away from diversity
  • Jirachi is countered mostly by the higher-tiered mons who can either afford to be flinched 3 times or more, are immune to being flinched, can shoot it down with priority attacks, or anything else to beat it.
  • A lot of would-be checks or counters can be circumnavigated either with coverage moves like Trick, the elemental punches, and more, or a little bit of bulk to avoid getting one-shotted by Greninja's Dark Pulse, two-shotted by Golem's Sucker Punch, or any other similar case.
2. It takes the battle out of players' hands
  • Many dicey matchups Jirachi has with pokemon, namely Tapu Koko, Charizard Y, and Primarina, are decided by Jirachi landing a flinch twice with either Iron Head or Heart Stamp, a 36% chance to avoid being one-shotted.
  • In a sense, Jirachi's flinching is effectively comparable to OHKO moves, particularly in the 36% matchups I mentioned above, since you can't really do anything about being flinched consecutively, just like you can't do anything about being autokilled 30% of the time. If you want to add mons that need three flinches to the mix, that takes it down to 21.6%, albeit, less effective than the OHKO moves at this point, but still a very efficient chance at autowinning, with the added benefit of being able to land critical hits, no less.
  • Now, unlike Sleep, which requires the Sleep user to sacrifice a turn AND moveslot dedicated solely towards putting the opponent to sleep, Iron Head and Heart Stamp bring Jirachi closer to the desired outcome of victory while ALSO being the factor that immobilizes the opponent.

Overall, I believe the negatives I outlined above heavily outweigh the positives that Jirachi brings in the form of being a Kyurem and Tapu Lele counter, which is why I believe Jirachi should be BANNED on the grounds of being uncompetitive.
 
Just playing the devils advocate, but if jirachi is getting banned for being uncompetitive (flinching compared to 1hko moves) then why wasnt togekiss suspected along jirachi? (as said by TI himself "for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.")

Theres no difference except jirachi has a better typing, does this mean just cuz togekiss has a worse typing mean that we will completely ignore the uncompetitive aspect about it?
 

Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Just playing the devils advocate, but if jirachi is getting banned for being uncompetitive (flinching compared to 1hko moves) then why wasnt togekiss suspected along jirachi? (as said by TI himself "for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.")

Theres no difference except jirachi has a better typing, does this mean just cuz togekiss has a worse typing mean that we will completely ignore the uncompetitive aspect about it?
For me personally it's the fact that togekiss has mediocre typing, an awkward speed stat (it doesn't outspeed scarf KyuB) and only one viable flinching move. Jirachi is good partially because of everything that's been mentioned, but also because it has not one but two moves to abuse. So if something resists the first, it can still use the second
 

Rosa

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Just playing the devils advocate, but if jirachi is getting banned for being uncompetitive (flinching compared to 1hko moves) then why wasnt togekiss suspected along jirachi? (as said by TI himself "for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.")

Theres no difference except jirachi has a better typing, does this mean just cuz togekiss has a worse typing mean that we will completely ignore the uncompetitive aspect about it?
Simply put, Togekiss is downright inferior to Jirachi nowadays. Its main claim to fame in Gen 6 was the fact that it could bulk attacks and outspeed things after using Thunder Wave, but with the nerf to Paralysis making Togekiss get outsped even by paralyzed opponents, it can't even do what it was best at.

As for trying to emulate Scarf Jirachi with Scarf Togekiss, it's just plain slower than everything that matters, namely Scarf Kyurem-Black and Porygon-Z, and doesn't even have a proper 60% flinch rate due to that 5% chance at missing. Not to mention only being able to flinch with one move as opposed to Jirachi's two.

Realistically, Togekiss is just better off setting up its haxiness with Thunder Wave, which puts it more in line with Sleep strategies, as opposed to trying to flinch its way to victory with scarf.
 

Gross Sweep

is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
Inverse Battle Work Shop Team

Recently a new trend has hit the 1v1 meta room. That trend being inverse 1v1 battles. Staff and regulars alike have taken to this meta more than anyother 1v1 OM since its release, if only a few days ago. Some predict it to replace the Xmas special tour in monthly championships (Winks at DEG), while others see it as a passing fad. We'll have to wait to see what the future holds for this youing OM, but one thing is for sure - you don't want to be caught without a decent team. In a format where all typing match ups are reversed standard laddering teams fail to measure up consistently, which is why several 1v1 room regulars, myself included, set out to build a solid Inverse 1v1 team for people to use as they adjust to the latest fad in 1v1. Without anymore build up let's jump to the team...


We started out with Dragonite as the centerpiece of the team. Dragon remains great stab in Inverse 1v1 as the only type that resists it now is opposing Dragon types. Multi Scale was also a huge boost per usual as it allows Dragonite to tank se moves more easily. With that we decided to build around a Z-Outrage set, with coverage options for the new meta. Extreme Speed is still powerful priority to finish weakened opponents, Thunder Punch now hits grounds that can irritate Dragonite, and Earthquake was solid filler as we went with a set that was bulky enough it couldn't make use of Dragon Dance efficiently, other options like Fire Punch can be toyed with in that slot. The EVs allow Dragonite to take on Donphan and other hard hitting tanks. M-Pidgeot was the second addition to the team. It repersents what's truly broken in Inverse 1v1; fast strong normals who can throw off fast unresisted Stab Hyper Beams/Giga Impacts. For the EVs we went with max SpA to hit as hard as possible, enough speed for base 110s, and threw the rest in Hp. Hyper Beam was a must, followed by Stab Hurricane, Heat Wave to hit waters who were looking annoying for the team, and Uproar to help deal with sleep strats. The final member of the team was Tapu Bulu who gives us a solid check to Kyurem-b "alla our EV spread". Wood Hammer was strong stab that let us break through teams, Bulk Up to boost past threats, and then the combo of Nature's Madness and Leech Seed to help stall out fatter mons/put them in range of Z-Wood Hammer.

I wont bore you with anymore details on the team. However, feel free to test it out if you're ever in the 1v1 room, and a certain mod who loves this tier, UnleashOurPassion, decides to start up a tour.

Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 92 Def
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Punch

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Big Pecks
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Uproar

Tapu Bulu @ Grassium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Nature's Madness
- Bulk Up
- Leech Seed
 
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Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
Just playing the devils advocate, but if jirachi is getting banned for being uncompetitive (flinching compared to 1hko moves) then why wasnt togekiss suspected along jirachi? (as said by TI himself "for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.")

Theres no difference except jirachi has a better typing, does this mean just cuz togekiss has a worse typing mean that we will completely ignore the uncompetitive aspect about it?
Jirachi and Togekiss' Scarf sets certainly can be compared on account of their potency with cheesing out flinch wins. However, if you look at the viability of Jirachi's sets vs Togekiss' sets, you'll find something interesting. Jirachi's "only viable set" is Choice Scarf, which is based exclusively on flinching. Togekiss' Scarf set on the other hand isn't even listed. This is because Togekiss works as an effective utilizer of Z-Charm rather than a Serene Grace abuser. The takeaway here is that while Jirachi is used in a near solely abusive manner, Togekiss has some positive aspects to it, differentiating it from Jirachi. It could be argued that with Jirachi gone, Scarf Togekiss may become viable, but it'd still be best to test Jirachi first and then if Togekiss develops into a problem, then come back to it.
 
Jirachi's "only viable set" is Choice Scarf, which is based exclusively on flinching. Togekiss' Scarf set on the other hand isn't even listed. This is because Togekiss works as an effective utilizer of Z-Charm rather than a Serene Grace abuser. The takeaway here is that while Jirachi is used in a near solely abusive manner, Togekiss has some positive aspects to it, differentiating it from Jirachi. It could be argued that with Jirachi gone, Scarf Togekiss may become viable, but it'd still be best to test Jirachi first and then if Togekiss develops into a problem, then come back to it.
Jirachi has three viable sets- a Choice Scarf set, a Z-Happy Hour set(which comes back to flinches) and a Z-Doom Desire set(which is not a flinch-based strategy). So, Jirachi also has its positive aspects which essentially does not rely on flinching-to-death. It's true that Jirachi is infamous for its flinching, but its other sets are viable as well. So, it can't be entirely concluded that Jirachi is not based on strategy.
 

Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
Jirachi has three viable sets- a Choice Scarf set, a Z-Happy Hour set(which comes back to flinches) and a Z-Doom Desire set(which is not a flinch-based strategy). So, Jirachi also has its positive aspects which essentially does not rely on flinching-to-death. It's true that Jirachi is infamous for its flinching, but its other sets are viable as well. So, it can't be entirely concluded that Jirachi is not based on strategy.
Z-Happy Hour is a joke, and as you said, hax-reliant. Z-Doom Desire is viable-ish, but some usage stats conclude...
Choice Scarf 82.300%
Steelium Z 2.059%
Normalium Z 1.762%
...it's just never used.
 

pqs

u rly thought
i don't know what to say but I want to give some teams for 1v1 oms. Just because most of them are lacking sample teams right now.

Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 52 SpD / 204 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast
- Trick

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hyper Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Rest


Tapu Fini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Moonblast
- Trick

Infernape @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 100 Atk / 156 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Blast Burn
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Jumpluff @ Wide Lens
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect


Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Toxic
- Recover

Rotom-Mow @ Electrium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 84 Def / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Leaf Storm
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot


Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Flame Charge
- Zen Headbutt
- Bolt Strike

Primarina @ Primarium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Encore
- Aqua Jet

Crustle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 52 Def / 4 SpD / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake


Quagsire @ Normalium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stockpile
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Flail
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Hydro Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse


no teams! sorry


Xerneas @ Fairium Z
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Geomancy
- Focus Blast

Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Substitute

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Dragon Ascent
- Outrage
- Earthquake


Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Toxic

Deoxys-Defense @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Recover
- Toxic

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Bulk Up
- Protect


Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 212 HP / 204 Def / 64 SpA / 28 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Taunt

Solgaleo @ Sogalium Z
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Flame Charge
- Zen Headbutt
- Flare Blitz

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Rest


Aegislash @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 172 HP / 100 Def / 238 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Moongeist Beam
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
- Flash Cannon

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Outrage
- Iron Head
- Fusion Bolt

"Coverage" (Nihilego) @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Frenzy Plant
- Acid Spray
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Leech Seed

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Noble Roar
- Toxic
- Recover
- Foul Play

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Protect
- Recover


Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Outrage
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Dance

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Cannon
- Blast Burn
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Precipe Blades


Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Big Pecks
EVs: 252 SpA / 88 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Substitute
- Work Up
- Hurricane

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Flash Cannon
- Blast Burn
- Earth Power

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 76 Def / 200 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Trick
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 124 Atk / 188 SpA / 56 SpD / 140 Spe
- Iron Head
- Heart Stamp
- Air Slash
- Fire Punch

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Diamond Storm
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise


Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Xurkitree @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Silvally @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Confide
- Rest
- Toxic


~pqs
 
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80%+ of Jirachi users (ab)use Jirachi with the intention of flinching their opponent to death, typically via the infamous combination of heart stamp, air slash and a choice scarf. The two moves with high flinch chances can hit most Pokemon for neutral damage, and serene grace usually stops them from retaliating. I definitely believe that Jirachi is not a competitive Pokemon when all you have to do is press a button and beat your opponent purely through luck.

I laddered most of the suspect with the following Jirachi set. It's worth noting that I fucked around on the ladder with a stupid Crustle set so my overall stats don't reflect my success rate with Jirachi.

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heart Stamp
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick
(I later added EV's to DEF over SP DEF in order to eat sucker punches)

Here are some absolutely disgusting replays which show just how uncompetitive Jirachi and how winning with it purely comes down to relying on luck, something which shouldn't be encouraged.

Replay 1 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681570118 (Jirachi VS Mega Lucario)

Replay 2 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681574442 (Jirachi VS Raichu-Alola)

Replay 3 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575438 (Jirachi VS Sigilyph)

Replay 4 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575933 (Jirachi VS Shuckle)

Replay 5 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681578646 (Jirachi VS Avalugg)

Replay 6 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681581541 (Jirachi VS Mew. Yes, I can eat an overheat.)

Replay 7 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681587049 (Jirachi VS Mega Gyarados. A loss but 5 flinches in a row at -1 lol)

Yes, of course Jirachi has counters. However, it can kill almost all Pokemon that it outspeeds due to the insane flinch chance. This is bearable in metagames where you can switch out into something that 1) outspeeds it and hits it hard or 2) has priority, but it's stupidly broken in 1v1, where there is no switching and you have to make do with what you've got. Jirachi takes away any sense of competitiveness from the game and turns it into a game of pot luck. Needs to be banned so that 1v1 can refocus itself around legitimate strategy and skill as opposed to flinching.

Notable counters to Jirachi which are commonly used:
  • Mimikyu with focus sash, disguise and shadow sneak priority.
  • Golem with sucker punch.
  • Mega Gyarados (intimidate + crunch)
Jirachi needs to go. Haven't had the time to finish laddering and make my vote, but I plan on doing so within the next couple days. I can deal with mons who have secondary focuses on move effects (such as Gyarados, which can flinch but isn't used to do so), but Jirachi is almost exclusively used in order to flinch opponents which is not acceptable in my eyes.

Additional replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-682039886 (slaking. beat the same dude's gren too but forgot to save replay)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-682042911 (dragonite)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-682043936 (volcanion)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-682044932 (same dude's volcanion. did it again because why not?)
 
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pqs

u rly thought
80%+ of Jirachi users (ab)use Jirachi with the intention of flinching their opponent to death, typically via the infamous combination of heart stamp, air slash and a choice scarf. The two moves with high flinch chances can hit most Pokemon for neutral damage, and serene grace usually stops them from retaliating. I definitely believe that Jirachi is not a competitive Pokemon when all you have to do is press a button and beat your opponent purely through luck.

I laddered most of the suspect with the following Jirachi set. It's worth noting that I fucked around on the ladder with a stupid Crustle set so my overall stats don't reflect my success rate with Jirachi

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heart Stamp
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick
(I later added EV's to DEF over SP DEF in order to eat sucker punches)

Here are some absolutely disgusting replays which show just how uncompetitive Jirachi and how winning with it purely comes down to relying on luck, something which shouldn't be encouraged.

Replay 1 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681570118 (Jirachi VS Mega Lucario)

Replay 2 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681574442 (Jirachi VS Raichu-Alola)

Replay 3 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575438 (Jirachi VS Sigilyph)

Replay 4 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575933 (Jirachi VS Shuckle)

Replay 5 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681578646 (Jirachi VS Avalugg)

Replay 6 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681581541 (Jirachi VS Mew. Yes, I can eat an overheat.)

Replay 7 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681587049 (Jirachi VS Mega Gyarados. A loss but 5 flinches in a row at -1 lol)

Yes, of course Jirachi has counters. However, it can kill almost all Pokemon that it outspeeds due to the insane flinch chance. This is bearable in metagames where you can switch out into something that 1) outspeeds it and hits it hard or 2) has priority, but it's stupidly broken in 1v1, where there is no switching and you have to make do with what you've got. Jirachi takes away any sense of competitiveness from the game and turns it into a game of pot luck. Needs to be banned so that 1v1 can refocus itself around legitimate strategy and skill as opposed to flinching.

Notable counters to Jirachi which are commonly used:
  • Mimikyu with focus sash, disguise and shadow sneak priority.
  • Golem with sucker punch.
  • Mega Gyarados (intimidate + crunch)
Jirachi needs to go. Haven't had the time to finish laddering and make my vote, but I plan on doing so within the next couple days.
- You can't have Focus Sash in 1v1
- Half of the replays you've shown aren't even against good pokemon in 1v1
- 252+ Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 288-342 (114.7 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Mimikyu can't even counter Jirachi if it gets flinch turn one which is more then 1/2 percent of the time
 
- You can't have Focus Sash in 1v1
- Half of the replays you've shown aren't even against good pokemon in 1v1
- 252+ Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 114-134 (33.4 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 288-342 (114.7 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Mimikyu can't even counter Jirachi if it gets flinch turn one which is more then 1/2 percent of the time
My bad on the sash, forgot about that. If Mimikyu can't counter, then that just makes my argument for banning Jirachi stronger.

The replays aren't necessarily against the best 1v1 Pokemon, they just showcase how half the Pokemon I ran into were unable to touch Jirachi in a 1v1 situation due to serene grace.
 
Now while most suspect posts are about the exact calcs and strategies behind using jirachi in 1v1, I offer you an entirely different experience than the rest of our lovely bloodthirsty 1v1 community and perhaps a refreshing break.

I wondered for a while if I should make a post on this suspect test as I did for the last and came up with this conclusion. Every calc, every strategy, every usage stat, they have all been analyzed to the fullest extent. There is nothing more anyone can do to explain why jirachi is broken or not from that information, so I have chosen another. I have 2 teams with jirachi on them in my showdown teambuilder and instead of giving you facts and calculations I would like to bestow upon you my experiences with them.

The first team is labeled plain and simply Jirachi as it is of course the star of the show. It is a humble team assembled by none other than god himself aka party's over. Jirachi, Mega-Venusaur, and Landorus Incarnate. This was the first team I ever played 1v1 with given to me by wham and I will say in my youthful days of 1v1 I relied on flinches about 75% of the time to save the day. However this team was soon forgotten as a new god squad had appeared on the horizon titled "When in Doubt". Jirachi, Donphan, Jumpluff, basically the most hax team alive. And I will say in my first month or so playing 1v1 I spammed these 2 teams on the ladder constantly but then I came to a startling conclusion. Relying on hax all of the time, was not a good strategy! (Crazy right) Amazingly, playing well will beat out hax about 99% of time!

Quick side note, This post is not just saying get good *cough* *cough* mod who knows who he is
 
80%+ of Jirachi users (ab)use Jirachi with the intention of flinching their opponent to death, typically via the infamous combination of heart stamp, air slash and a choice scarf. The two moves with high flinch chances can hit most Pokemon for neutral damage, and serene grace usually stops them from retaliating. I definitely believe that Jirachi is not a competitive Pokemon when all you have to do is press a button and beat your opponent purely through luck.

I laddered most of the suspect with the following Jirachi set. It's worth noting that I fucked around on the ladder with a stupid Crustle set so my overall stats don't reflect my success rate with Jirachi

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heart Stamp
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick
(I later added EV's to DEF over SP DEF in order to eat sucker punches)

Here are some absolutely disgusting replays which show just how uncompetitive Jirachi and how winning with it purely comes down to relying on luck, something which shouldn't be encouraged.

Replay 1 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681570118 (Jirachi VS Mega Lucario)

Replay 2 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681574442 (Jirachi VS Raichu-Alola)

Replay 3 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575438 (Jirachi VS Sigilyph)

Replay 4 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681575933 (Jirachi VS Shuckle)

Replay 5 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681578646 (Jirachi VS Avalugg)

Replay 6 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681581541 (Jirachi VS Mew. Yes, I can eat an overheat.)

Replay 7 -- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-681587049 (Jirachi VS Mega Gyarados. A loss but 5 flinches in a row at -1 lol)

Yes, of course Jirachi has counters. However, it can kill almost all Pokemon that it outspeeds due to the insane flinch chance. This is bearable in metagames where you can switch out into something that 1) outspeeds it and hits it hard or 2) has priority, but it's stupidly broken in 1v1, where there is no switching and you have to make do with what you've got. Jirachi takes away any sense of competitiveness from the game and turns it into a game of pot luck. Needs to be banned so that 1v1 can refocus itself around legitimate strategy and skill as opposed to flinching.

Notable counters to Jirachi which are commonly used:
  • Mimikyu with focus sash, disguise and shadow sneak priority.
  • Golem with sucker punch.
  • Mega Gyarados (intimidate + crunch)
Jirachi needs to go. Haven't had the time to finish laddering and make my vote, but I plan on doing so within the next couple days. I can deal with mons who have secondary focuses on move effects (such as Gyarados, which can flinch but isn't used to do so), but Jirachi is almost exclusively used in order to flinch opponents which is not acceptable in my eyes.
The Lucario matchup is not valid since its non-mega form gets inner focus+Jirachi has other counters including Zygarde-Complete, Dragonite, faster scarf-users like Garchomp, Inner Focus users, and Pokemon that resist both of its STABs like Mega Metagross.
Jirachi is not by any means broken and (although I personally never use it) I firmly believe that it's not banworthy and I am certain that others share my opinion as well.Again, sorry for the 1-liner.
 
The Lucario matchup is not valid since its non-mega form gets inner focus+Jirachi has other counters including Zygarde-Complete, Dragonite, faster scarf-users like Garchomp, Inner Focus users, and Pokemon that resist both of its STABs like Mega Metagross.
Jirachi is not by any means broken and (although I personally never use it) I firmly believe that it's not banworthy and I am certain that others share my opinion as well.Again, sorry for the 1-liner.
The Lucario matchup had my opponent go mega and lose the inner focus, hence why I included it. If they were a more experienced they wouldn't have mega evolved, but the fact remains that they did mega and were subsequently flinched to death by a practically untouchable Pokemon. Jirachi does have more counters than I came across in a mere half hour of playing, but the fact remains that any pokemon slower than jirachi without hard hitting priority is statistically more likely to get flinched to death than to get a hit off on it.

I'm also certain that other people share the same opinion as yourself, but I'm certain that people share the same opinion as myself too. This is a suspect test, after all.
 
The Lucario matchup had my opponent go mega and lose the inner focus, hence why I included it. If they were a more experienced they wouldn't have mega evolved, but the fact remains that they did mega and were subsequently flinched to death by a practically untouchable Pokemon. Jirachi does have more counters than I came across in a mere half hour of playing, but the fact remains that any pokemon slower than jirachi without hard hitting priority is statistically more likely to get flinched to death than to get a hit off on it.

I'm also certain that other people share the same opinion as yourself, but I'm certain that people share the same opinion as myself too. This is a suspect test, after all.
lolwut
Don't say "statistically" if it ain't true
Two flinches, the amount you need to beat maybe 30% of what Jirachi "beats", especially Sturdies and Mega Venusaur etc., is less likely to happen than to not happen.
Don't believe me? Do the math. (no seriously, you can do this in your head, take like 5 seconds and think about it)
0.6 x 0.6 = 0.36
That's a little over one-third, just about the same odds as a max attack Sturdy OHKOing my Tapu Lele set as a Durant missing Stone Edge. This is a SIXTY-FOUR percent chance that your little plan goes awry. Against a Donphan, that's fatal. Now, the really great thing about Jirachi is that its typing is really good defensively. Steel is amazing, and Psychic doesn't screw up Steel's amazingness too much.
So there are some shots you can take, but a non-invested base 100/100 doesn't take too many Z-Moves that hit it neutrally.
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 339-400 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primarina Hydro Vortex (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 349-412 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO - This is before Torrent-
252+ Atk Sawk All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 331-391 (97 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (sawk loses to Jirachi, but I was just searching for neutral Z-Moves)
i.e., one non-flinch and you're probably dead. Or if they have priority, you're dead. Or if they're a setup sleeper, you're dead.
 
Two flinches, the amount you need to beat maybe 30% of what Jirachi "beats", especially Sturdies and Mega Venusaur etc., is less likely to happen than to not happen.
Don't believe me? Do the math. (no seriously, you can do this in your head, take like 5 seconds and think about it)
0.6 x 0.6 = 0.36
That's a little over one-third, just about the same odds as a max attack Sturdy OHKOing my Tapu Lele set as a Durant missing Stone Edge. This is a SIXTY-FOUR percent chance that your little plan goes awry. Against a Donphan, that's fatal.
I have to interject here and add something. This sixty four percent chance that you state is only applicable if you are facing off against a foe who is able to OHKO you. This is a different story with a pokemon who is unable to OHKO you.

If said pokemon facing off against Jirachi can only 2HKO at best, the odds get noticeably better for Jirachi as it can afford to miss a flinch as long as two other attacks manage to flinch.

Let's break it down Jirachi's 3HKO against a somewhat tanky mon that can only 2HKO it.

0.6 (flinch) x 1.4 (no flinch) x 0.6 (flinch) = 0.504

0.504 = 50.4%

(EDIT: Didn't realize in my drowsy stupor that the example I used is for a 4HKO instead of 3 hits because the second flinch needs to matter. This only strengthens the argument though because these odds mean that Jirachi can coin flip wins and losses against a mon that it can only 4HKO, even if the opponent can 2HKO Jirachi back.)

As you can see, an inability to OHKO jirachi while still getting 3HKO'd 4HKO'd by Jirachi raises the odds a great deal in favour of Jirachi. That 64% chance of losing has now dropped to only 49.6%; basically a coin flip.

The point that I am trying to make is this: Most times in 1v1 whenever there is a very close matchup it boils down to EV investments and skill at mentally outplaying your opponent (and vice versa). Jirachi turns this logic on its head and creates "close" matchups purely through luck.

Also, I have seen the argument that basically says "Relying on luck isn't a very good competitive strategy, so it isn't broken because it doesn't get consistent results." Will you feel this way when you are on the receiving end of such a strategy and losing? Will you feel this way if you see someone who just happened to get lucky and be okay with it simply because you know that the odds dictate that they have to lose at some point?

It's already late and I am struggling to keep my thoughts aligned. I will talk more about this another time.
 
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Should we shorten the battle timers in 1v1?
Recently I've been playing VGC 18. They've shortened their timers from 150 seconds > 75 seconds. This post may include a bit of bias, but I strongly feel this would be a decent thing for 1v1. Since 1v1 battles, in my opinion, are suppose to be short and should not drag on for 5-10 minutes.

After talking it over with users such Attidude and Gross Sweep. They both agreed, shortening the timers down could be nice.

Gross Sweep
Gross Sweep has said "2 minutes and 30 seconds may be a bit too long, but I'm not interested in like 60 seconds." Also saying "I would want to experiment with it".

Attidude
When asked if the battle timer for 1v1 should be shortened, Attidude responded with this. "The battle timer was implemented with a motive of allowing people to allow time to contemplate possible moves of opponents and make decisions based on that in a standard 6v6 game play, this would involve taking the option of the opponent switching in between battle, and so a timer of 150 seconds seems justified. But, in 1v1, the time needed to make decisions will essentially be excluded of the time needed to contemplate the switching part and possibilities there of. Which makes me to the conclusion that reducing battle timers for 1v1 game play should be reduced a bit."

Attidude would then go on to say the following. "I think that it should be reduced to about 90-100 seconds, because I think 50-60 seconds is the time taken for factoring in the switching parts into making the right decision for a match."

Questions & Answers
Question: Are we even able to shorten the battle timer? // Answer: Yes, I have contacted, The Immortal, who has said he can.
Question: How long do you intend to make the battle timer? // Answer: As of now, we don't know. We plan on experimenting to see what works best. 75 seconds is probably the lowest we will go for the time being.
Question: Why even change the battle timer? // Answer: 1v1 is meant to be a quick game. The objective of the format is to KO the opposing Pokemon before they do yours. You should know what move to use, it shouldn't take you almost 3 minutes to decide. In addition, this will also help with stall. (Sleep, Leech Seed, Toxic, PP, and Timer Stalling.) No one likes waiting forever just to see if they will critically attack, or wake up. This we hope will make the battles more quicker and reduce the possibility you end up forfeiting because you don't wanna wait.
 

The Immortal

is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
The 1v1 leaders made it clear that Species Clause isn't being removed. Kindly refrain from bringing this up in the thread as it just unnecessarily derails the other discussions. If you want to discuss it further, bring it up with 1v1 leadership in private and we will decide if we want to re-open the discussion about it.

I don't mind either way about the timers. If the other 1v1 leaders and the community are in support of lowering the timer then it's fine by me. Personally, it doesn't bother me if someone stalls as I can just start new battles alongside it. 1v1 doesn't require as much thought as 6v6 so having multiple battles side-by-side won't affect your performance.
 

Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
So I made a post Saturday saying luck was a bad strategy and blah blah blah, just go read it if you really care.

I would like to formally retract my statement as it seems luck is a wonderful strategy and I can never hope to win any ladder game because of it. So I have formally changed my opinion to pro ban Jirachi because as DEG has said (in reference to the Species Clause rule, not bringing it up just quoting) we need to have a competitive meta-game and obviously hax are stopping that from happening.
I am also would like to start the argument that we should not only ban Jirachi but instead all flinching methods, make all move 100% accurate, ban sleep, and most of all, ban crits from ever happening.

Now I can see all of you wondering if I am stupid and if I need mental help as the things I mentioned banning may seem quite insane. Well you would be correct in assuming this and now you can see how all of us anti ban Jirachi members feel when we see people telling us banning it is a good idea. What I have learned from my years of playing Pokemon is one thing, it is impossible to make Pokemon a 100% competitive game. The game is stacked in the favor of hax. No matter how well you play or what predictions you make you always have a chance to lose (unless you are using mega slowbro that is and you cant be crit). Removing a Pokemon from the game because it relies on one of the fundamental mechanics of the game is straight up ignorant.

(In case you couldn't notice the first past was a joke and I'm actually not pro ban)
Your attitude is one of passivity. Flinches are an aspect of the game, but that doesn't matter. Jirachi is not competitive, so it should not be allowed. Additionally, you compared Jirachi (a Pokemon) to game mechanics (accuracy, sleep, crits). This isn't a fair comparison because while Jirachi relies on flinches to be at all effective, Jirachi is not the mechanic of flinching itself.
 

pqs

u rly thought
workshop number whatever


After millions of polls, !pick, and arguing. We had finally agreed on Crustle. This rocky behemoth thingy relies on it's ability Sturdy to get off a Shell Smash, 105 attack + Z-Rock Wrecker dominates.

usefulcrab (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 7 Def
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Counter / Protect / Earthquake

We had decided on Jolly Crustle to outspeed Tapu Koko at +2, leaving it open to Z-Rock Wrecker.
Counter was for Pokemon like Mawile-Mega or other physical counters that walled Crustle otherwise.

Next we looked at what Crustle's most obvious weaknesses were.

List
Gyarados-Mega
Icium Z Kyurem-Black
Metagross-Mega

So then we added Charizard-Mega-Y, which can beat all of those Pokemon.

VIETNAM (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp


We used the combination of Will-O-Wisp + Solar Beam to beat Gyarados-Mega, 220 HP/252 Def beats Lopunny-Mega.
We then listed the weaknesses of those two Pokemon

List
Dragonite (Special or Physical)
Sturdies
Chansey

We had added Gardevoir, which can beat all of those Pokemon by using Hyper Beam + Psyshock and Trace.

Lady Smallwood (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 200 HP / 48 Def / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Beam


Gl on the ladder with this!

usefulcrab (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 7 Def
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Counter / Protect / Earthquake

VIETNAM (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp

Lady Smallwood (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 200 HP / 48 Def / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Beam
 
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