Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
I have to interject here and add something. This sixty four percent chance that you state is only applicable if you are facing off against a foe who is able to OHKO you. This is a different story with a pokemon who is unable to OHKO you.

If said pokemon facing off against Jirachi can only 2HKO at best, the odds get noticeably better for Jirachi as it can afford to miss a flinch as long as two other attacks manage to flinch.

Let's break it down Jirachi's 3HKO against a somewhat tanky mon that can only 2HKO it.

0.6 (flinch) x 1.4 (no flinch) x 0.6 (flinch) = 0.504

0.504 = 50.4%

(EDIT: Didn't realize in my drowsy stupor that the example I used is for a 4HKO instead of 3 hits because the second flinch needs to matter. This only strengthens the argument though because these odds mean that Jirachi can coin flip wins and losses against a mon that it can only 4HKO, even if the opponent can 2HKO Jirachi back.)

As you can see, an inability to OHKO jirachi while still getting 3HKO'd 4HKO'd by Jirachi raises the odds a great deal in favour of Jirachi. That 64% chance of losing has now dropped to only 49.6%; basically a coin flip.

The point that I am trying to make is this: Most times in 1v1 whenever there is a very close matchup it boils down to EV investments and skill at mentally outplaying your opponent (and vice versa). Jirachi turns this logic on its head and creates "close" matchups purely through luck.

Also, I have seen the argument that basically says "Relying on luck isn't a very good competitive strategy, so it isn't broken because it doesn't get consistent results." Will you feel this way when you are on the receiving end of such a strategy and losing? Will you feel this way if you see someone who just happened to get lucky and be okay with it simply because you know that the odds dictate that they have to lose at some point?

It's already late and I am struggling to keep my thoughts aligned. I will talk more about this another time.
The odds of beating a mon you 3HKO that 2HKOs you is 84% (assuming no crits happen), you simply calc the chance that neither flinches (=the chance you lose) 0.4x0.4=0.16 then subtract that from one 1-0.16=0.84 which is a point both the pro-ban and anti-ban seem to be forgetting.
These matchups are incredibly rigged in Jirachi's favor
 
workshop number whatever


After millions of polls, !pick, and arguing. We had finally agreed on Crustle. This rocky behemoth thingy relies on it's ability Sturdy to get off a Shell Smash, 105 attack + Z-Rock Wrecker dominates.

usefulcrab (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 7 Def
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Counter / Protect / Earthquake

We had decided on Jolly Crustle to outspeed Tapu Koko at +2, leaving it open to Z-Rock Wrecker.
Counter was for Pokemon like Mawile-Mega or other physical counters that walled Crustle otherwise.

Next we looked at what Crustle's most obvious weaknesses were.

List
Gyarados-Mega
Icium Z Kyurem-Black
Metagross-Mega

So then we added Charizard-Mega-Y, which can beat all of those Pokemon.

VIETNAM (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp


We used the combination of Will-O-Wisp + Solar Beam to beat Gyarados-Mega, 220 HP/252 Def beats Lopunny-Mega.
We then listed the weaknesses of those two Pokemon

List
Dragonite (Special or Physical)
Sturdies
Chansey

We had added Gardevoir, which can beat all of those Pokemon by using Hyper Beam + Psyshock and Trace.

Lady Smallwood (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 200 HP / 48 Def / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Beam


Gl on the ladder with this!

usefulcrab (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 7 Def
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Counter / Protect / Earthquake

VIETNAM (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp

Lady Smallwood (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 200 HP / 48 Def / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Beam
Maybe add encore as a potential option on Mega Gardevoir as an alternative to w-o-w? Without it Mega Slowbro can hard counter this whole core. I guess it just becomes a matter of choosing your losing matchups.
 

dom

Banned deucer.
On jirachi:
It was the new toy syndrome that made Mimikyu S rank and potentially banworthy towards the beginning of the generation. People saw its moveset and shat themselves because it looked broken. But in reality, it was just another fast and moderately powerful glass cannon, akin to Tapu Koko, Greninja, Lopunny, Porygon-Z, and more. Sure, it had decent alternatives with Baloon and steelium, but because of the same novelty effect that got Icium Kyurem-Black popular, Scarf was the most used set by a mile, essentially forcing the alternatives down to becoming "meme" sets like Groundium Kyurem-Black, ultimately leaving this mon with an even more narrow variety of viable moves than Gyarados.

The main point that was ever really behind Jirachi being banned was that it annoyed people, which is the same reason why Deoxys-Defense got banned despite not even being considered viable enough for S rank. I'll definitely admit to Jirachi being a good mon, but not good enough to be banworthy, and I'm glad that there are people who can recognize what it actually does contribute to the meta, as opposed to what it can.
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Normally, I wouldn't discuss unbans like this, however, seeing all the support it got in the room when discussed has made me curious to see what everyone thinks.
Is Zekrom healthy for 1v1?


1516209271611.png

Looking at its stats, you can see that it's pretty comparable to Kyurem-Black, just exchanging a little bit of speed for a little bit of extra physical bulk, not to mention, the same ability, and similar movesets with the exception of no Ice moves.

Note that I used the term "healthy" in my title for this post. A healthy addition to the metagame would be something that encourages more creative building while also not taking too much away from other factors of the metagame. I'd rather not just unban things for the sake of unbanning them.

The main reasons I've seen people want Zekrom freed is "we kept Kyurem, why not free Zekrom?" or "it's just not good". I hope these are not the only reasons people would want to free a potentially unhealthy mon, which is why I'm bringing it here to gauge everyone's opinion on it in hopes of coming to a solid conclusion. Normally I'd add my own thoughts and calcs and such, but I'll wait and see if this is something even worth discussing before doing so.
 
Normally, I wouldn't discuss unbans like this, however, seeing all the support it got in the room when discussed has made me curious to see what everyone thinks.
Is Zekrom healthy for 1v1?


View attachment 98034
Looking at its stats, you can see that it's pretty comparable to Kyurem-Black, just exchanging a little bit of speed for a little bit of extra physical bulk, not to mention, the same ability, and similar movesets with the exception of no Ice moves.

Note that I used the term "healthy" in my title for this post. A healthy addition to the metagame would be something that encourages more creative building while also not taking too much away from other factors of the metagame. I'd rather not just unban things for the sake of unbanning them.

The main reasons I've seen people want Zekrom freed is "we kept Kyurem, why not free Zekrom?" or "it's just not good". I hope these are not the only reasons people would want to free a potentially unhealthy mon, which is why I'm bringing it here to gauge everyone's opinion on it in hopes of coming to a solid conclusion. Normally I'd add my own thoughts and calcs and such, but I'll wait and see if this is something even worth discussing before doing so.
I've heard about this before; it can be rather outclassed by Kyu-B, but I've also heard that it can beat a lot of the viability rankings with a few sets.

Also, thoughts on Reshiram?
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor

Look, I'm not gonna waste mine, nor anyone's time with multi-paragraph theorymonning sessions and a huge spreadsheet full of damage calcs like i did when Kyurem-Black was suspected.

However, I will say this much. The main argument for unbanning Zekrom right now basically comes down to "It's a worse Kyurem-Black, why not?" Personally, I think this logic is flawed. If it is a worse Kyurem-Black (which I don't think it is, more on that in a bit), then what's the point of unbanning it? We're going through all this risk in getting a potentially unhealthy element, and in the end, none of the work pays off, since what we get, according to this heavily flawed proposal, is an outclassed, low C/D rank piece of crap usurped by an S rank mon. What's the point in taking the risk when the pay-off is not there? What will a worse KB add to the metagame?

Now, for me to explain why Zekrom could be unhealthy. When we were suspecting Kyurem-Black, one of the big arguments from the pro-ban side was that its stats and type were so incredible that it could potentially run a set to cteam every Pokemon in the meta.

Let's apply this to Zekrom. As Glyx pointed out, Zekrom is actually marginally bulkier than Kyurem-Black, both on the defensive and specially defensive ends. But it doesn't stop there. Let's compare their typings for a moment...

Defensively: Weakness and resistances
Screenshot 2018-01-17 at 1.44.01 PM.png

Remember, people were complaining that a 125/100/90 Pokemon with 5 weaknesses and 3 resistances was too tanky considering its damage output. Now try a 100/120/100 Pokemon with 4 weaknesses and 6 resistances.

Offensively: STABs and Attacks
Screenshot 2018-01-17 at 1.50.18 PM.png

Dragon/Electric has 3 weaknesses, 15 neutral hits, and no resists. Dragon/Ice has 4 weaknesses, 13 neutral hits, and 1 resistance.

Now, let's compare their secondary STABs.
Freeze Shock: 140 BP Ice move, Z-Power 200, comes off 170 Attack, since it's a dead slot once Icium is used, it can only be used on Icium sets, nothing more
Bolt Strike: 130 BP Electric Move, Z-Power 195, comes off 150 Attack, is not immediately useless once Z-move is used up, and doesn't need to be used on z sets

I don't really have a strong opinion on whether Zekrom would be healthy, we obviously cannot know 100% for sure unless it's playtested, but all I will say is that taking the risk doesn't appear to be worth the potential (or lack of) benefits. I mean, perhaps another Mega Gyarados check would be nice, but w/e


Oh, and as for Reshiram, fuck no, do you want every other Fire type in the tier besides the Megazards to be outclassed?
 

DEG

peace
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Tl;dr. No. If you think Kyurem-Black is the problem then we should look into banning it and not unbanning something similar.

PS; expect a post from me soon.
 
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Tl;dr. No. If you think Kyurem-Black is the problem then we should look into banning it and not unbanning something similar.

PS; expect a post from me soon.
People don’t want Kyurem banned, obviously. Zekrom is worse than Kyu-B so it should be considered at least.
 
Quick note:
I counted a total of 107 mons (110 if you count DNU) in the viability rankings. Assuming Zekrom runs gigavolt havoc and defensive EVs, it beats 38 of those, mostly slower dragon types and water types. It doesn't beat half the meta, but it does beat 35% of it.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Quick note:
I counted a total of 107 mons (110 if you count DNU) in the viability rankings. Assuming Zekrom runs gigavolt havoc and defensive EVs, it beats 38 of those, mostly slower dragon types and water types. It doesn't beat half the meta, but it does beat 35% of it.
Do you have a spreadsheet or doc or something showing us the calcs?
 
People don’t want Kyurem banned
lol. That's funny.

Here's my take on Zekrom:

I am strictly against the inclusion of Zekrom within 1v1 for one huge reason that does not seem to be talked about yet.

For all the comparisons that there seem to be with Kyurem-Black, I have not seen a single person highlight the AMAZING synergy that Zekrom shares with Kyurem-Black. While Kyurem-Black is capable of things that Zekrom cannot on paper, both shore up each other's weaknesses marvelously. The fighting types, steel types, walls, and certain fairy types that beat Kyurem-Black are severly dealt with by Zekrom and, in turn, this duo manages to create a massive bottleneck on team building that is unlike anything we've ever seen (except maybe that one day where final gambit and explosion were broken). Just one glance at the viability rankings and this is what I see; with the exception of maybe Magearna, Defensive Mega Gardevoir, and Aegislash, I can see a single mon on the whole viability list that has any chance to reliably take these two brutes on at the same time.

Normally I have to take the time to meticulously craft my posts to try and get my point across as well as possible, but I didn't even need to do that with this. This much is clear: The inclusion of Zekrom is more than capable of drastically reducing the number of viable pokemon by straight up outclassing more niche picks and forcing teams to bend over backwards just to reliably beat it when paired with certain mons (I'm sure other mons aside from Kube could be effortlessly paired with Zekrom as well).

It's been said time and time again that it's not a good thing for something to over-centralize and restrict the metagame. It's time to stand behind that philosophy.
 

Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
Normally, I wouldn't discuss unbans like this, however, seeing all the support it got in the room when discussed has made me curious to see what everyone thinks.
Is Zekrom healthy for 1v1?


View attachment 98034
Looking at its stats, you can see that it's pretty comparable to Kyurem-Black, just exchanging a little bit of speed for a little bit of extra physical bulk, not to mention, the same ability, and similar movesets with the exception of no Ice moves.

Note that I used the term "healthy" in my title for this post. A healthy addition to the metagame would be something that encourages more creative building while also not taking too much away from other factors of the metagame. I'd rather not just unban things for the sake of unbanning them.

The main reasons I've seen people want Zekrom freed is "we kept Kyurem, why not free Zekrom?" or "it's just not good". I hope these are not the only reasons people would want to free a potentially unhealthy mon, which is why I'm bringing it here to gauge everyone's opinion on it in hopes of coming to a solid conclusion. Normally I'd add my own thoughts and calcs and such, but I'll wait and see if this is something even worth discussing before doing so.
Potential common Zekrom sets: Scarf, Band, Dragonium
Potential uncommon Zekrom sets: Specs
Common Kyurem-B sets: Scarf, Icium
Less common Kyurem-B sets: Band, Specs, Weakness Policy

Things that common Zekrom sets can beat that common Kyurem-B sets lose to:
Mega Gyarados
Mega Metagross
Magearna
Mega Slowbro
Blaziken
Genesect
Primarina
Tapu Fini

The above list but with Pokemon that less common Kyurem-B sets can beat:
Mega Metagross
Magearna
Reversal Blaziken

I definitely wouldn't call that without a niche, so the argument that it's a worse Kyurem-B is just wrong. Let's take a look at some minuses of using Zekrom.

Things that common Kyurem-B sets can beat that common Zekrom sets lose to:
Landorus-T
Mega Altaria

Things that common Kyurem-B sets can beat that uncommon Zekrom sets lose to:
Wait, wtf, where are they? lol

In my book, Zekrom is every bit as good as Kyurem-B, and although likely less versatile, quite possibly better. Would write some more, but I've got semester finals to study for, so just gonna wrap it up with this: Zekrom should not be unbanned.
 

DEG

peace
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Suspect Test 5.0: Power Construct.

zygarde-complete.gif

IF YOU THOUGHT WERE DONE WITH SUSPECTS, WE AIN'T.
The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Zygarde-Complete to be suspected. The test will run for 2 weeks until Friday the 2nd of February at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Zygarde-C being ALLOWED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a NEW Smogon conversation with Uselesscrab (I lost my counting job. Press F to pay respect. ) titled Suspect 5, with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Zygarde-Complete will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "The ban of Zygarde-C at the start of the 7th generation was considered a mistake by many. The main point was that regular Zygarde needed to sacrifice its Attack to be able to be bulky enough to tank hits from popular threats in the metagame. It was unbanned in the transition to USUM where it showed its real power.

Zygarde-C turned out to be a defensive behemoth which could easily sponge hits and retalite back with a strong attack. It also benefits from Coil which boosts both of its Attack and Defense making its job of tanking hits and attacking back easier. It normally uses Ground-Z or Dragonium-Z 3 attacks but recent sets with Rest is making it harder to check. All of that conbined with a great typing in Dragon/Ground which stops the prominent Fire- and Steel-type Pokemon and with its amazing defense stats which can survive and defeat most physical attackers make Zygarde-C suspect worthy.

People are finding it hard to build teams without being too pressured by Zygarde-C which is a definition of unhealthiness. It can also adapt to all playstyles and patch holes in teams easily. There's more arguments of why Zygarde-C is unhealthy and plenty why it's healthy but ill leave that to you"

Offensive Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Rock Slide

Offensive Dragon-Z
Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 8 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows

Rest Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Rest
- Thousand Arrows
- Core Enforcer


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion
*Please only talk about Zygarde-C and nothing else.
**We are suspecting power construct and not Zygarde.
 
"Guys lets unban power construct I don't see how op it is at all" - DEG
*Community agrees with deg cuz its deg
"Power Construct looks a little too op guys" - DEG
*Community agrees with deg cuz its deg (once again)
On paper, I think that a fair bit of us did not see how Zygarde could be an issue even with power construct. Historically, abilities and items that rely on HP dipping below a certain percentage have never been overbearing on the metagame as it's often easy to play around such abilities/items by lowering the HP stat just outside the range in which an ability or item take effect and then finishing them off before they can get any real benefit from the low HP boost.

To be fair, this test didn't exactly come outta nowhere. There's been a commotion made over ZyGod for a while now and the requests for such a suspect test are nothing new.

As for what I think of Zygod, here's my thoughts on it:

From my perspective, it's not simply power construct alone that makes Zygod's presence in 1v1 questionable. It's when you add up all the other little things that come with Zygod that make it deserving of a test.

1. Ease Of Coverage: Pretty simple, but I doubt this mon would be even considered for a suspect test if not for thousand arrows as an option. Most other boosting sweepers are forced to have a limited variety of attacking moves which can make them more prone to losing matchups due to restricted coverage options. Since thousand arrows is only resisted by grass and makes flying types, balloons, and levitate useless, you can't really play around Zygod by abusing its typing like you can with other boosting mons.

2. Out-Stalling Stall: This is a weird one. Usually a boosting sweeper cannot hope to compete with a wall that is capable of boosting their own defenses or by eliminating the boosts of the sweeper. However, rest is used by Zygod with such ease that the threat of winning a war with a stall mon through the slow slog of PP stalling is a very real threat, which means that conventional mons which are used to beat physical attackers, such as Charm Venusaur, fall prey to the endurance that rest provides. I know that other boosters could use rest as well if they wanted to, but most others do not have the bulk to make such a move-slot choice anything more than a gimmick.

Not totally convinced yet that this thing needs to be banned, so I wanna hear what else people have to say about this thing.
 
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People don’t want Kyurem banned, obviously. Zekrom is worse than Kyu-B so it should be considered at least.
t f
guess half the 1v1ers aren't people
but seriously, this morning Freddy Kyogre came up with some team (Zek/Kyub/ZardX) that took a roomful of active people thirty minutes to come up with a working cteam for, this is not tenable.
 
t f
guess half the 1v1ers aren't people
but seriously, this morning Freddy Kyogre came up with some team (Zek/Kyub/ZardX) that took a roomful of active people thirty minutes to come up with a working cteam for, this is not tenable.
don't quite understand what you mean, but I was just trying to show people how centralizing unbanning zekrom would be (it would be a huge mistake, and there is probably a reason it hasn't been done).
 

dom

Banned deucer.
Suspect Test 5.0: Power Construct.

View attachment 98094
IF YOU THOUGHT WERE DONE WITH SUSPECTS, WE AIN'T.
The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Zygarde-Complete to be suspected. The test will run for 2 weeks until Friday the 2nd of February at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Zygarde-C being ALLOWED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a NEW Smogon conversation with Uselesscrab (I lost my counting job. Press F to pay respect. ) titled Suspect 5, with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Zygarde-Complete will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "The ban of Zygarde-C at the start of the 7th generation was considered a mistake by many. The main point was that regular Zygarde needed to sacrifice its Attack to be able to be bulky enough to tank hits from popular threats in the metagame. It was unbanned in the transition to USUM where it showed its real power.

Zygarde-C turned out to be a defensive behemoth which could easily sponge hits and retalite back with a strong attack. It also benefits from Coil which boosts both of its Attack and Defense making its job of tanking hits and attacking back easier. It normally uses Ground-Z or Dragonium-Z 3 attacks but recent sets with Rest is making it harder to check. All of that conbined with a great typing in Dragon/Ground which stops the prominent Fire- and Steel-type Pokemon and with its amazing defense stats which can survive and defeat most physical attackers make Zygarde-C suspect worthy.

People are finding it hard to build teams without being too pressured by Zygarde-C which is a definition of unhealthiness. It can also adapt to all playstyles and patch holes in teams easily. There's more arguments of why Zygarde-C is unhealthy and plenty why it's healthy but ill leave that to you"

Offensive Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Rock Slide

Offensive Dragon-Z
Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 8 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows

Rest Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Rest
- Thousand Arrows
- Core Enforcer


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion
*Please only talk about Zygarde-C and nothing else.
**We are suspecting power construct and not Zygarde.
why the FUCK is this not a zekrom test
 
Alright, hi, my name is Iron Crusher i'm a 1v1 player.
i'm making this post because i have been slightly ticked of by some recent posts made, this is how i feel about the recent events and posts that have been created.
i'm also giving my opinions on the suspect and the recent Zekrom discussion.

Normally, I wouldn't discuss unbans like this, however, seeing all the support it got in the room when discussed has made me curious to see what everyone thinks.
Is Zekrom healthy for 1v1?


View attachment 98034
Looking at its stats, you can see that it's pretty comparable to Kyurem-Black, just exchanging a little bit of speed for a little bit of extra physical bulk, not to mention, the same ability, and similar movesets with the exception of no Ice moves.

Note that I used the term "healthy" in my title for this post. A healthy addition to the metagame would be something that encourages more creative building while also not taking too much away from other factors of the metagame. I'd rather not just unban things for the sake of unbanning them.

The main reasons I've seen people want Zekrom freed is "we kept Kyurem, why not free Zekrom?" or "it's just not good". I hope these are not the only reasons people would want to free a potentially unhealthy mon, which is why I'm bringing it here to gauge everyone's opinion on it in hopes of coming to a solid conclusion. Normally I'd add my own thoughts and calcs and such, but I'll wait and see if this is something even worth discussing before doing so.
So first of all nice post Glyx.
I personally think comparing Zekrom to Kyurem-Black is not a very good way to depict the discussed mon's viabilty and potential brokenness and "we kept Kyurem-Black so unban Zekrom" is one of the worst arguments to make when unbanning/banning a mon. they are different mons they kill different things, they have different movesets, they have different stats and different typing.
And by that logic "Zekrom is just a worse Kyurem-Black" is severely untrue, for the same reason as why I believe the first argument is bad.

Now that that's out of the way, my personal thoughts on Zekrom's potential:
It can beat a whole lot of mons and i personally find it slightly hard to make a 100% counter to Zekrom (not taking crits an misses into account).
it can tank most a lot of attacks thrown at it.
this is the ev spread i will be using for physical calcs: 232 HP / 24 Atk / 252 Def Impish
and for Special calcs: 212 HP / 44 Atk / 252 Spdef
252+ Atk Mimikyu Let's Snuggle Forever vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 338-398 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 324-384 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 336-396 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For kyub it can't tank icium but Kyub isn't a guaranteed counter because various sets of kyub lose to different sets of Zekrom. Ex: Fast icium is beaten by scarf Zekrom, scarf is beaten by defensive dragonium Zekrom, Bulky Icium is beaten by fast dragonium Zekrom. this turns this matchup kinda into RPS unless specially bulky Zekrom in which case don't use Zekrom when anticipating Kyub.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Outrage vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 312-368 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 212 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 292-344 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are the most relevant calcs i will be showing for the defensive capabilities.

Now i will talk about a few mons i think do the best job at countering most Zekrom sets:
Max speed Landorus-Therian (bar for scarf Modest Hidden Power Ice), Mawile-Mega with Intimidate (bar for specs/groundium), Physically defensive Fairium Koko specifically: 84 HP / 252 Def / 156 Spa / 16 Spe Timid
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Gigavolt Havoc (195 BP) vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 255-301 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and yes it can tank normal fairium:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 208 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fast defensive Fairium-z Lele it can barely take then hits while outspeeding max speed Zekrom, which doesn't make it a guaranteed counter but one of the closest things to it.
40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe Timid
speed to outspeed max speed Zekrom and bulk to tank Zekrom's adamant scarf Bolt Strike most of the time:
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 246-291 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
to make this 0 % chance to OHKO you'd need 4 more EV's which you can't have.
0 SpA Tapu Lele Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 474-558 (139 - 163.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tapu Lele Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 212 HP / 252 SpD Zekrom: 372-440 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Bulky Magearna:
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Gigavolt Havoc (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Magearna: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
to be accurate. this is most likely the closest you can get to a hard counter for Zekrom: Magearna with Fairium-Z and 252 HP / 128 Def / 84 Spa / 44 Spd Calm (Spdef is for Groundium-Z, if you want to be that careful, otherwise just pour everything into spa).
Altaria-Mega, walling both stabs and having Pixilate basically.

Alright so i think i've been rambling on for quite a bit just about calcs, i personally really think it just lacks a solid 100% Hard counter that will always beat it (Outside of crits an misses) i probably missed some mons that could potentionally hard counter this mon (i'm slightly confident i did) if you send those to me or mention those in a post or in chat in the 1v1 room i will try my very best to counter that mon with zekrom. and to my current knowledge it can basically best almost every mon with the right sets.

Conclusion: I do not wish to see Zekrom unbanned and personally think it's one step too far for my personal benchmark.

Also, thoughts on Reshiram?
Ehh, i don't really see why this would be a good idea, i don't think this would be a very easy mon to counter and i certainly don't think it would encourage any type of Versitality and originality at all.

People don’t want Kyurem banned, obviously. Zekrom is worse than Kyu-B so it should be considered at least.
Point 1: Plenty of people wanted to have it banned, just not enough people that wanted it banned got reqs.
point 2: "Zekrom is worse than Kyu-B" i mentioned this earlier but this argument does absolutely nothing especially not without any proof to base these claims on.
lol. That's funny.

Here's my take on Zekrom:

I am strictly against the inclusion of Zekrom within 1v1 for one huge reason that does not seem to be talked about yet.

Normally I have to take the time to meticulously craft my posts to try and get my point across as well as possible, but I didn't even need to do that with this. This much is clear: The inclusion of Zekrom is more than capable of drastically reducing the number of viable pokemon by straight up outclassing more niche picks and forcing teams to bend over backwards just to reliably beat it when paired with certain mons (I'm sure other mons aside from Kube could be effortlessly paired with Zekrom as well).

It's been said time and time again that it's not a good thing for something to over-centralize and restrict the metagame. It's time to stand behind that philosophy.
Agreed.

Potential common Zekrom sets: Scarf, Band, Dragonium
Potential uncommon Zekrom sets: Specs
Common Kyurem-B sets: Scarf, Icium
Less common Kyurem-B sets: Band, Specs, Weakness Policy

Things that common Zekrom sets can beat that common Kyurem-B sets lose to:
Mega Gyarados
Mega Metagross
Magearna
Mega Slowbro
Blaziken
Genesect
Primarina
Tapu Fini

The above list but with Pokemon that less common Kyurem-B sets can beat:
Mega Metagross
Magearna
Reversal Blaziken

I definitely wouldn't call that without a niche, so the argument that it's a worse Kyurem-B is just wrong. Let's take a look at some minuses of using Zekrom.

Things that common Kyurem-B sets can beat that common Zekrom sets lose to:
Landorus-T
Mega Altaria

Things that common Kyurem-B sets can beat that uncommon Zekrom sets lose to:
Wait, wtf, where are they? lol

In my book, Zekrom is every bit as good as Kyurem-B, and although likely less versatile, quite possibly better. Would write some more, but I've got semester finals to study for, so just gonna wrap it up with this: Zekrom should not be unbanned.
Nice post Mace, i agree with pretty much everything said here. good luck with finals.
Suspect Test 5.0: Power Construct.

View attachment 98094
IF YOU THOUGHT WERE DONE WITH SUSPECTS, WE AIN'T.
The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Zygarde-Complete to be suspected. The test will run for 2 weeks until Friday the 2nd of February at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Zygarde-C being ALLOWED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a NEW Smogon conversation with Uselesscrab (I lost my counting job. Press F to pay respect. ) titled Suspect 5, with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Zygarde-Complete will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "The ban of Zygarde-C at the start of the 7th generation was considered a mistake by many. The main point was that regular Zygarde needed to sacrifice its Attack to be able to be bulky enough to tank hits from popular threats in the metagame. It was unbanned in the transition to USUM where it showed its real power.

Zygarde-C turned out to be a defensive behemoth which could easily sponge hits and retalite back with a strong attack. It also benefits from Coil which boosts both of its Attack and Defense making its job of tanking hits and attacking back easier. It normally uses Ground-Z or Dragonium-Z 3 attacks but recent sets with Rest is making it harder to check. All of that conbined with a great typing in Dragon/Ground which stops the prominent Fire- and Steel-type Pokemon and with its amazing defense stats which can survive and defeat most physical attackers make Zygarde-C suspect worthy.

People are finding it hard to build teams without being too pressured by Zygarde-C which is a definition of unhealthiness. It can also adapt to all playstyles and patch holes in teams easily. There's more arguments of why Zygarde-C is unhealthy and plenty why it's healthy but ill leave that to you"

Offensive Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Rock Slide

Offensive Dragon-Z
Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 8 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows

Rest Ground-Z
Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Rest
- Thousand Arrows
- Core Enforcer


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion
*Please only talk about Zygarde-C and nothing else.
**We are suspecting power construct and not Zygarde.
Yay, finally! alright real talk, i'm happy this thing got a suspect test since in my opinion the quick unban was uncalled for and it finally got the suspect it deserved to have in the first place, now about my opinion on the mon itself: Zygarde-Complete is a defensive behemoth upon getting below 50% health at the end of a turn, it's quite a strong mon that beats a large margin of mons including various high ranked once, but i personally through seeing it get used and to seeing various counter measures and creative ways of dealing with this behemoth and my own calcs and research (i can't really share them outside of this post i made:http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-power-construct-suspect-test.3587523/page-33#post-7528611) i personally have reached the conclusion that i don't need to see this behemoth banned, i could try convinving other people but i personally don't think that's necesary for Zygarde-Complete since my opinion on it isn't as strong as let's say, Zekrom.

"Guys lets unban power construct I don't see how op it is at all" - DEG
*Community agrees with deg cuz its deg
"Power Construct looks a little too op guys" - DEG
*Community agrees with deg cuz its deg (once again)
This is simply an untrue statement since the reason we're having this suspect is because people didn't agree with the fact that it was quickunbanned instead of put through an actual suspect, or at least that's my take on it.

Now i'll get to the 2 posts that ticked me off so much that it inspired me to make this post.

....ok more confused about the snake video than the suspect tbh
This is a 1 liner with absolutely 0 point in being there, why did you feel the need to post this? why is this relevant info in discussing Power Construct? The music video is not the main point of the suspect post nor a part of it that should be the main focus of a post in this thread.

why the FUCK is this not a zekrom test
This One-liner post... I actually can't tell if this is just a really bad joke or if you're actually serious. Weren't you one of the people that wanted this suspect in the first place? Were you actually expecting a Zekrom test instead of a Power Construct test, in case of yes, why? Weren't suspects going to be in chronological order anyhow and Zekrom was brought up for potential unban/ban discussion only recently so i really, honestly, truly, don't get it.

Now to bring an end to this post, if you've read all the way through this: Good job. Here, have a cookie.
Thanks for reading through my annoyance filled piece of post and i'm sorry if i've annoyed you or pissed you off in any way, you're free to post any counter arguments you have for me in this thread, as long as they stay on topic of course, if you have any personal problems with what i said in this post then again, i'm sorry, you're free to PM me and vent about it, i'm sure we could figure it out to not be pissed at each other.
these are my thoughts on the recent discussions, posts and suspects. I hope some of you enjoyed it and see you next time.

~Iron Crusher
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I personally don't view Zygarde-Complete as something even worthy of a suspect test, let alone an outright ban, which is why I won't be discussing the mon itself unless I absolutely have to.

However, it has come to my attention that a lot of people are leaning ban for the reasoning of Zygarde having "limited counters".
1. Gyarados-Mega - Taunt. 50/50 if Zygarde is faster.
2. Kyurem-Black
3. Metagross-Mega -
Meteor Mash first so you don't trigger Power Construct then Ice Punch to KO. Z-Arrows cannot OHKO unless no bulk Metagross.
4. Tapu Koko - Fairium is not just a meme.
5. Tapu Lele
6. Dragonite
7. Magearna -
Blame UOP for making Shuca Berry exist, and blame Landon for making bulky Fairium exist.
8. Mimikyu - Still beats anything slower, as always.
9. Pinsir-Mega - Requires Return and a little bit of finessing, but is in Pinsir's favor.
10. Landorus-Therian - Also requires finessing, but should be a win as long as you don't activate Power Construct and save your Z-move for the KO.
11. Magnezone - 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 84 SpD Zygarde: 412-488 (98.8 - 117%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
12. Porygon-Z - 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 84 SpD Zygarde: 424-500 (101.6 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
13. Slowbro-Mega - Wins the PP stall wars without even needing Rest.
14. Venusaur-Mega - The fact that Rest lasts for a guaranteed number of turns makes Zygarde an easy target to get rolled to death by Sleep Powder.
15. Altaria-Mega
16. Garchomp
17. Genesect
18. Greninja
19. Meloetta
20. Naganadel
21. Primarina -
Specs
22. Tapu Fini
23. Blastoise-Mega
24. Chansey -
Unless you're SubCoil, Charm and Counter will outlast almost all of your PP.
25. Ferrothorn - Doesn't win the PP stall war, but DOES regain just as much HP as it loses from using Struggle, thanks to Leech Seed.
26. Gardevoir-Mega
27. Jumpluff -
The Sleep rolls are all over the place in this matchup, but you eventually will run out of Rest.
28. Blissey - Same deal as Chansey
29. Buzzwole - It's only a matter of time before he lands the lethal crit, not to mention Taunt/Ice Punch just ruin your day.
30. Diancie - (Not Mega) Regular tanks a Z-Arrows and OHKO's back with Z-Moonblast.
31. Gengar-Mega - Same HypnoHex strats as always.
32. Latios
33. Mew -
Nasty Plot Genesis OR Kee Berry Taunt.
34. Pheromosa - Specially offensive specifically.
35. Togekiss - People insist that Fairium is a thing.
36. Avalugg - Curses, foiled again!
37. Landorus-Incarnate - HP Ice
38. Medicham-Mega - Ice Punch just plain kills after Fake Out.
39. Volcarona - Bulks to tank Z-Arrows + Espeed and OHKO's with Z-Buzz after using Quiver Dance.
40. Whimsicott - Moonblast is a mean move, but a move to be feared nonetheless.
41. Blacephalon - Specs HP Ice.
42. Keldeo - CM Z-Move.
43. Kommo-o - Outspeeds and OHKO's with Clangorous Soulblaze.
44. Latias-Mega - [insert Meteor here]
45. Ninetales-Alola
46. Pidgeot-Mega -
Blame Fertile Crescent for making Feather Dance mainstream.
47. Abomasnow-Mega
48. Pyukumuku -
Taunt
49. Necrozma - 252+ SpA Choice Specs Necrozma Prismatic Laser vs. 240 HP / 84 SpD Zygarde: 405-477 (97.1 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
50. Porygon2 - Ice Beam.
51. Scizor-Mega - Gets Curse now, and has a LOT more PP with Bullet Punch and Bug Bite.
52. Slaking - 252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 128+ Def Zygarde: 400-472 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
53. Smeargle - Sleep rolls as always, but Smeargle is still faster so-
54. Vivillon

54/108 mons in the current VR beat/can beat Zygarde-Complete.
This includes:
2/2 S ranks
12/20 A ranks
22/41 B ranks
and so on.

This isn't like Kyurem-Black where you have to think about which mon beats which set, since Zygarde-Complete realistically only has 1/2 good sets.

So I put the question in your hands: Is it enough that about half the metagame can directly beat Zygarde-Complete while Zygarde manages to take on the other half?
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Can we just lay it off with this "unban x" shit? I mean, tbf, a Giratina-O unban does sound promising, but for fuck's sake, can we just focus on the currently happening Zygarde-Complete suspect? I swear, half of the posts since the original suspect announcement have just been debates on Zekrom, and now Giratina. Now is not the time to discuss that shit. Now is the time to discuss the future of Zygod in the tier. Please, and thank you.
 
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