Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Honestly,if there is a time to ban Z-Moves it would have to be now. People have enough knowledge of the generation 7 metagame so there will be no "biased decisions" and all that stuff. However, I have no idea how the community could decide such a thing, since a Z-Moves suspect would admittedly be quite weird.
It is obvious that most of the ORAS players are in favor of a Z-Move ban, while most SM players aren't. Thus, this would require a lot of argumentology and consideration before reaching a final result, since we by no means want rushed decisions.

In my opinion, the perfect word to describe Z-Moves would be overcentralizing.
Pokemon like Tapu Koko can utilize them to their fullest in order to succeed, and they might be tough to fight against.
On the other hand, I am afraid that if we ban Z-Moves, the metagame might centralize around bulky pokemon such as Mega Charizard X (always a prominent threat in ORAS),Kyurem-Black (an omnipresent threat in the metagame) and the 2 most prominent Steel types, Magearna and Mega Metagross, especially the first one since Mega Metagross's checks aren't limited to Z-Move users.
If we could find a way to cope with this, then I would certainly be in favor of a Z-Move ban.

On the Zygarde-C suspect, I voted DNB although I wasn't exactly certain about it.
I'll admit that no argument managed to convince me what to vote.DNB seemed like the obvious answer to me, since Zygarde-C is no different than other strong pokemon in the metagame such as Charizard.
It is powerful, but it definitely has it's counters. I truly believe it deserved a suspect test in order to clear up people's opinions on it, and I would like to thank the Tier Council for making the right decision.
I could see it being re-suspected in the future but honestly, we should give priority to bigger metagame problems.

Pre-suspects were a thing I personally never experienced, so I would definitely like to see them brought back.
They fit perfectly in metagame like 1v1 whose players have strong opinions and wouldn't like waiting fosuspectedncil to approve suggestions for upcoming suspects.Furthermore,I firmly believe that many more Pokemon need to be suspected, and I see pre-suspects as a better way to ensure that everyone's voice is heard.

P. S. Ban Z, Re-suspect KyuB
(it rhymes well, doesn't it)

P. S. 2
Nyaaasia winning World Cup of 1v1 this year!
 
I completely agree with party on every point he made and i would like to see the third option take place,but if thats not possible 1. option would work ig,if we start re-suspecting from the beginning starting with kb and ending with zygod. Also second option to me seems like just waste of a lot of time.

This post came in the right time and i am happy we didnt have to wait.


P.S europe is winning for sho
 
I think the first two options are not a good idea in the slightest. Resuspecting something until it gets banned is just a poor idea. It makes each suspect unimportant, as they just become a facade for a council ban; voters know that if they dont pick what the council wants, itll just come back again and again until it finally gets the “correct” result. If the 1v1 leadership thought it was that important to ban kyurem black, they really should have just up and done it instead of suspecting it.

Option #2 is slightly better, but dom makes a good point here; there is a good reason that presuspects arent used elsewhere, and its that they dont fulfil a role that cant be better done elsewhere. DEG , you seem to have an idea of what you think needs to be done to balance 1v1; just suspect them rather than beating around the bush with a pre suspect and hoping the voters spit out the suspect you desire.

Option #3 is the best of these, but even it isnt what I would call a good idea; it enforces a false trichotemy, but being better than other listed options doesnt make a choice good..
Z moved are a mechanic, just like stealth rocks in gen 4 for singles or Mega Evolutions in gen 6, and its one we have to live with bar the most extreme circumstances. Banning items at all is supposed to be a big step; while form changing mega items are treated the same way as pokemon due to their mechanic, it does (and should) take something on the level of focus sash or past gen soul dew to cause it. You could treat it as a move ban, which I suppose is fair, but those have just as stringent conditions. By and large, we tier Pokemon. This means that the first resort is to ban abusers, and only proceed onwards after that has failed. Suspect Tapu Koko, or Mimikyu, or whichever mon you think is actually broken when using zmoves. If the community doesnt find them broken? C’est la vie.
 
haha back at it again with the stupid cteam sets

so today i was thinking about how zmoves are "broken" and how they can "let pokemon fill niches they shouldnt," like groundium z kyurem-black, so i decided

hey
since zmoves have so much support behind the ban, as even our TL wants them gone, lets make a mon that DOESNT use zmoves to fill a niche it shouldnt, so i took a look back at my older teams, and found one that was pretty strong, except for a few weaknesses, which were scizor, genesect, and durant.

hence this set was born:
zmove (Metagross-Mega) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 108 SpD / 32 Spe
Gentle Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Bulldoze
- Magnet Rise


this set can very very reliably beat a genesect
it lives a flamethrower, and it's ev'ed to make genesect download attack.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 108+ SpD Metagross-Mega: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 108+ SpD Metagross-Mega: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
bulldoze -> hp fire kills scarf / fast specs
double hp fire outspeeds and kills bulky specs

the magnet rise is for mons like sturdies, and other, slower metagrosses (or is it metagrossi?)
grassknot is because its special lol so just let it beat stuff like swampert and donphan

and yes, this set is memey, but also yes, I have had an extreme amount of success with this set. I actually went from 1400 to 1630 in about an hour with this set on a team.

have fun guys please dont cteam me
 
There is a fundamental problem with the meta in that people don't seem to know to what three important relevant terms seem to be misunderstood, so imma lay em out for y'all here:

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent

Keeping these in mind, let me explain what I have in mind:

3) The problem isn't the Pokemon. This comes more in the "scared" part, and I'll be the first to say it in our present metagame; Z-Moves are broken, let's face the truth. Yes they are fun; yes, they diversify the metagame, yes, it's a gen 7 mechanic, but all of that hurt the metagame rendering it less and less competitive.


Z-Moves are fun, but not in a competitive mindset. We are trying to play this metagame in a competitive way, which explains the recent influx of tournaments. Having a more balanced and competitive metagame is more fun than just spamming Z-Moves.


Z-Moves diversify the metagame but not in a positive manner. This isn't what I expected but you either see people use their favorite Pokemon coupled with a Z-Move or an overpowered Pokemon just because of its Z-Move being spammed over and over again. I don't know about the "good" part of diversity in that, but something must be changed.


Z-Moves are a gen 7 mechanic, but aren't a thing that needs coding to be removed, in the end it's just an item that we can work around it.


Z-crystals are brainless items that are used on every Pokemon without thinking, they are so abundant that you only see them bar the rare choiced items and Mega stones.
It's so simple to create new Pokemon and new sets right now. A metagame should have a key thinking strategy, something to make you enjoy building teams and playing and not just putting a Z-Moves on a Pokemon. This makes you think questions like "Is Kyub really broken without its Z-Move", "Is Sleep even broken without it?" Etc...
I think it is an agreeable fact that ZMoves are an overcentralizing concept in the gen7 1v1 metagame, but if ZMoves come under the radar, I think the questions that are to be asked and answered would be:
1) "What aspects make ZMoves broken?",
2) "What has ZMoves offered to the meta that has made it competitive?",
3) "Will the ban on ZMoves make the meta one less reliant on broken and uncompetitive elements", and
4)"How will the removal of ZMove make the meta a competitive meta".
Let me make myself clear on how each of these questions are different from the other.

1) The first question would attract the answers like "It is a one-time nuke" "It's harder to wall" " It makes countering them difficult" and the like.
2) The second would attract questions like "It has offered healthy diversity(If it has)" "It has raised the skill level of players by making them to move strategically(if they do)" and such similar stuff.
3) The next two questions are something similar, inviting answers like "Obviously, since ZMoves is exactly what broken is defined to be, for a 1v1 playstyle-very limited counters and thus reducing skill level".
 
Subject: Fixing a fundamental flaw of 1v1

Suspect testing is a nice way to get the community involved in shaping the meta for the format they want to play. The idea here being that people generally are interested in what is best for the entire game rather than what is best for themselves.

Unfortunately, it is clear that in every suspect test in 1v1, there are folks (it varies, not interested in blaming anyone specifically) who vote in a way that is purely selfish/personal/uneducated/exclusively emotional. Whether or not the overall results of the vote are beneficial to 1v1, the opportunity for votes to be made without the best interest of 1v1 in mind is detrimental to the health of the format.

Agree or disagree, we have to proceed as if 1v1 Tier Leaders have the best interest of 1v1 in mind. Therefore, decisions they make are inherently not selfish/personal/uneducated/exclusively emotional.

I suggest that we do away with suspect testing and allow the TLs to make every ban/unban decision. They do so via utilizing evidence from posts on this forum. Once a decision is made, they have to directly quote/indicate which posts affected their decision. This would wipe out any deliberately negative voting that occurs and encourage folks to sharpen their arguments for usage in meta-changing decisions. Essentially, this means people still get a vote - the reqs being if you can formulate a strong argument. Additionally, this eliminates the problem that many folks - I'll raise my hand on this one - have with TLs not being active players / on ladder. They simply have to read the forum to understand what is going on and utilize well crafted arguments to make decisions.

Is this too much power for TLs? Perhaps. However, changes to 1v1 need to be made and I personally (which is why I shouldn't get a vote) believe the community is incapable of properly improving the format with the suspect power it currently has.

- TL;DR: that guy who has brought up Zekrom since Spring '17 thinks he knows what is best for 1v1
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
As much as I believe in the word of the people from everything to small things like this to real life issues, I unfortunately have to toss in my support for Gojira's proposal. These past few suspects have been bloody awful, and I'm not saying this because I'm salty or whatever about the results. From the beginning, I was staunchly anti-ban on Zygarde-Complete, and even I feel the suspect went poorly. It seemed like everyone there just voted the way they did because of personal bias, and didn't take the time to really get together and evaluate how healthy Zygod is. The forums just exploded into discussions on seemingly everything EXCEPT Zygarde-C, down to ridiculous crap like unbanning Zekrom and Giratina-Origin. Which leads me to my next point...

In order to get this forum fixed, I have one thing to say. This fetish we have for unbanning random Ubers stuff needs to END NOW. In order to show you what I mean, I present...

The 1v1 Unban Cycle
-Someone proposes unban
-People get on board and hype it up like it's the ultimate solution that'll save 1v1
-Someone makes an argument to prove that it would be extraordinarily unhealthy
-Sheep mentality takes over and everyone follows and supports that guy to save face and not look like idiots
-Nothing happens, and days' worth of discussion goes to complete waste

Seriously, out of all the unban proposals, how many of them have gone through? Blaziken? Zygarde-C, which has ended up being super controversial, as evidenced by the results of this suspect? Aside from those, most of them end up like the cycle I described. So here's MY proposal: If a Pokemon is brought up for unban, and the discussion does not at least convince the TLs to do a suspect, or if an argument for an unban turns out to be extremely poor, that Pokemon is to be IMMEDIATELY black-listed, and in the latter case, the post is deleted and infracted, no questions asked. This may seem extreme, but I feel like it is needed to stop arguments over mons that should never touch 1v1 with a 6-foot pole. If you just have to use shiny, cool Ubers mons in order to not die, then we already got plenty of those: Mega Lucario, Blaziken and Mega Blaziken, Mega Gengar, Deoxys-Speed, Naganadel, Pheromosa, and of course, Zygarde-Complete.

And now, for my thoughts on banning Z-moves.

Are they broken? I'm not really sure. But I think there is another reason entirely on why I think we should get rid of them.

In this recent period of time, our players and leaders have been trying to get others to take 1v1 more seriously. We have been having way more tournaments, such as 1v1 Classic and 1v1 Premier League. I personally think that if our ultimate goal is to get 1v1 recognized as a competitive tier, Z-moves are a huge obstacle to that.

Let's assume you're some big competitive Youtuber like Blunder or Joey. Which metagame would you like to play on a livestream or a video? A meta like OU where you can actually make some unique strats or sets? Or 1v1, where you can haphazardly slap a Z-crystal on everything? That's what Z-moves make 1v1 like. There is no reason not to use Z-moves. This reduces item diversity and in turn makes the meta boring.
 
We all noticed something but we're either too scared to talk, or don't care much, or just are here to have fun and play. But we all know deep inside that there's something wrong with the 1v1 metagame right now. We suspected 3 Pokemon and they didn't get banned even though they were broken, and why? There's many answers to that like:


1) The suspect Philosophy is broken. We are aware of that, and are looking for a good fix. It was written in a gen 6 metagame, and doesn't apply here anymore. We will be revamping it soon, but we're not in a rush since we need to work it out perfectly as it is a sensitive information. Yes, we are aware of the fact that we're taking too long but it's for a good reason.


2) The metagame is balanced like that, broken check broken, and if we ban something l, another broken Pokemon will show. This is probably a reason why both Kyurem-Black and Zygarde-Complete didn't get banned, it's like "Why them when there's a lot of more threats in the metagame", and this is where people went wrong. We are free to ban anything deemed broken in the PRESENT metagame, the FUTURE can wait and will be handled separately. This is why I believe we failed to reach a ban conclusion on many threats.


3) The problem isn't the Pokemon. This comes more in the "scared" part, and I'll be the first to say it in our present metagame; Z-Moves are broken, let's face the truth. Yes they are fun; yes, they diversify the metagame, yes, it's a gen 7 mechanic, but all of that hurt the metagame rendering it less and less competitive.


Z-Moves are fun, but not in a competitive mindset. We are trying to play this metagame in a competitive way, which explains the recent influx of tournaments. Having a more balanced and competitive metagame is more fun than just spamming Z-Moves.


Z-Moves diversify the metagame but not in a positive manner. This isn't what I expected but you either see people use their favorite Pokemon coupled with a Z-Move or an overpowered Pokemon just because of its Z-Move being spammed over and over again. I don't know about the "good" part of diversity in that, but something must be changed.


Z-Moves are a gen 7 mechanic, but aren't a thing that needs coding to be removed, in the end it's just an item that we can work around it.


Z-crystals are brainless items that are used on every Pokemon without thinking, they are so abundant that you only see them bar the rare choiced items and Mega stones.
It's so simple to create new Pokemon and new sets right now. A metagame should have a key thinking strategy, something to make you enjoy building teams and playing and not just putting a Z-Moves on a Pokemon. This makes you think questions like "Is Kyub really broken without its Z-Move", "Is Sleep even broken without it?" Etc...


From there we have 3 solutions, and no unbanning more Pokemon isn't one of them, which are the following;


1) Re-suspecting Kyurem-Black. This goes with the second point above. People were worried that banning Kyurem-Black would free more space to a lot more Pokemon just like Sturdies. This is a completely wrong way of thinking that really put us in a bad spot. Another point that has been brought up is that people saying "Why ban Zyagrde-c or Jirachi when the best Pokemon in 1v1 isn't" which is an even worse way of thinking, since you're just running in circles and not tackling the real problem. Both of these arguments have lead 1v1 into falling down.


2) Bringing back pre-suspects or carrying on doing regular suspects. This is going to the past and hoping something change, or people to change their opinion about a matter which isn't the smartest option but can work.


3) Touching the heart of the problem which is Z-Moves. This puts up different questions in line; "Wouldn't it hurt the metagame after 1 year of gen 7?", "Would it really make things better?" "Should we ban Z-Moves or limit them one per team?" and the like.


This isn't the leadership team opinion but mine, and I'm waiting for EVERYONE'S answer so we can decide what's going on and fix the future of our metagame so it doesn't become boring and uncompetitive. Thank you! :)

*What is also worse is that in the past 2 suspects people talked 0 about the Pokemon being suspected which really sucks, how do you expect people to understand/change their opinion if there's no post at all.
Thanks for the important post DEG. I'll try to provide a viewpoint as a more casual, less skilled player than most of the other posters here.

Firstly, Kyurem-Black should not be re-suspected. It's strong and flexible, true, but many many many counters exist to deal with it - it's quite a decent benchmark of where maximum power levels should be for the meta, not least in part because we've simply had to deal with it for a while. It's simply something to prepare for, like in any other meta, and I doubt removing it would actually do anything for the meta's health.

Secondly, I do think pre-suspects should happen in moderation. Actual changes and suspect votes should be limited to high-level players who know what they're doing, but if there's something or somethings wrong with the meta it should be pretty clear what actually impacts everyone by simply polling for it, and what problems are most pressing. We really did not need that Jirachi suspect, in my opinion, and we definitely didn't need it before anything else on the suspect schedule.

Thirdly, Z-Moves should've been banned from the start and suspected to test inclusion. It's definitely an unskillful way to play when any noob can blow through a wall in 1 or 2 turns by using a Z-nuke followed by a regular nuke (speaking as said noob who has definitely played that way). Status Z-moves, on the other hand, are significantly more interesting, and if there's a way to only allow those I'd be fine with that. We can't really do a 1-Z-Move/team policy because it's highly improbable that it would actually fix the problem - the problem of Z-move sets still exists, it just becomes a shell game to try guessing which mon is running the Z-set. Removing Z-stones would require more competitive, creative thinking for players, and increase the viability of defensive mons while simultaneously reducing the power of offensive mons (which, incidentally, would also help balance top-tier problem mons like Kyurem-Black and Tapu Koko).
 
Next time on Pokeball Z...
1v1 Smogon JPEG.jpg

Yes. I am 100% serious. I wish to make my argument against the inclusion of Z crystals within the 1v1 metagame.

Ever since the start of generation 7, Z crystals have had a huge influence and it is my goal to show to you that the changes brought by Z crystals are overall negative. I will first cover all of my arguments which I would like to present against Z crystals and then I will cover potential counter arguments.

This is going to be a long post FYI. Let’s begin.

My Points:

The explosion/ self-destruct comparison.
Now, we all know that explosion and self-destruct are really powerful moves in terms of raw power and 100% accuracy. We also know that both moves are rightfully balanced because protect can completely negate the effectiveness of the move. To top it all off, the moves are impossible to win with in 1v1 because the user faints first. Lets look at Z moves now.

Z moves provide immediate and enormous power, but unlike those two moves, there are notable benefits that cannot be ignored. In many cases Protect is rendered useless against a Z user because the protect user still has to take 25% of the Z move’s power. Many mons using protect are brought into KO range by a regular move(s) afterwards if the protector is unable to KO the Z user first as a result.

Conclusion: Z moves potentially have the power of self-destruct, can greatly hinder the effectiveness of protect, and have no actively negative effects on the user.


Now that’s just one small argument against Z crystals. Here’s a larger one.

Offensive and defensive power creep which hinders the viability of other sets.
I’ll try to explain myself. While Z moves provide the immediate effect of being able to hit harder than ever, there’s more to it than just that. Z moves often have so much power behind them that it becomes possible to run an unprecedented level of defensive investment on an offensive mon; something that most choice band and specs users cannot do on the same level (and that’s not even mentioning the freedom to not be locked into one move). Because of this, many mons may be forced to run a Z crystal of their own in order to have enough of an offensive or defensive presence to compete against other Z users.

Choice band and specs can still find their uses because of not being limited to only benefitting moves of a single type, but choice scarf is particularly hindered by these changes. The increased bulk brought by Z crystal usage means that only Kyurem-B, Porygon-Z, Jirachi, and Garchomp have stayed predominantly as scarfers (Genesect’s specs set is over 10% more common than its scarf set at this time). Scarfers can still use trick, but with the presence of Z crystals, its niche has shrunk a lot.


Miscellaneous
Z moves are able to cheese a few matchups by bypassing taunt and encore, which is not something that can be "worked around" defensively.


Counterarguments

“If Z moves should be suspected because they are one-time use per team, then why not test mega stones as well?”
There is a fundamental difference between Z moves and mega stones. Almost every 1v1 mon that uses a mega stone is utterly lost to obscurity without it. Without the mega stone, these basic mons are mostly unviable. However, Z moves are able to be used by mons that were ALREADY huge threats in 1v1 and so they gain one more super powerful tool to fight with. That is the key difference as I see it.


“A Z-user is so much weaker after they use their power while a choice specs/band user can always hit hard.”
That may be true in some ways, but I am curious how often this actually makes are makes or breaks games. As a rough estimate, a relevant Z power is around 70%-100% stronger than a usual attack, give or take (I’ll talk about hyper beam in a bit).

Any moves that are base 80-70 have a 100% increase in power. This means that there is no difference at all in damage output compared to choice items for the first two turns.

80 power move maths:

Z: 160+80 = 240

Specs/band: 120 + 120 = 240


Moves with a base 110 power have roughly a 70% boost. This one is more complicated to figure out.
110 power maths:

Z: 185 + 110 = 295

Specs/Band:

Z: 165 + 165 = 330

330/295 = 1.119 = 11.9% Two hits from the Z attacker are roughly 12% weaker than two hits from a choice mon using the same attack.


This part might be a little confusing so bear with me. If two hits from a choice attack just barely result in a guaranteed 2HKO, the rolls can range from 100% to 117.8%. If we take the attack stat that causes this guaranteed 2HKO and divide it by the 1.119 that we have found, we find that the rolls become 88.8%-104.5%, which is still a 31.3% chance to 2HKO with the Z crystal.

These numbers mean this: there is roughly only a 12% window where the use of a choice item will ensure victory where a Z crystal would not with a 110 power move (the numbers only get more desirable for the Z user, the lower the move's base power is). A Z user only gets weaker as the turns go by, but if a mon is able to consistently take 2 hits from a choice-boosted opponent, the band/specs user and Z user should likely lose the match anyway.

Moves such as hyper beam definitely have much less hitting power with a Z crystal, but they also can then be used twice. Pick your poison: hit much harder on turn 1, or hit twice to finish them off.

I didn't really have a place to smoothly slip this note in, so I'll say it here. Even if Z crystal users can be weaker as the turns go by, they still have the freedom to boost up and muscle through in ways that specs/band users sometimes cannot.

In conclusion, specs/band users can sometimes excel in ways that Z users cannot. However, I firmly think that the freedom, versatility, and wallbreaking potential provided by a Z crystal is superior to the offensive choice items.


"Z crystals bring lots of variety to 1v1. We would lose so much variety if they were suddenly gone."
I may not be able to straight up deny this argument, but you can't prove that statement any more than I can prove mine; it's all based on each of our own experiences and general predictions. I could also argue that giving every single pokemon a 10 stat increase in their HP/Attack/Special Attack/Def/SpDef/Speed would add more variety, but we really would not be able to accurately say. As such, I believe that this is a stalemate argument that will not help either side.


"Z crystals limit you to only being powerful in a single attacking type."
Yup. That's true. It's up to you to decide whether or not that downside is really enough to deem Z crystals as balanced.


And that's about it. I hope I have provided some insight into why Z crystals may not be such a good thing for 1v1. Have a good day.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
The problem isn't the Pokemon. This comes more in the "scared" part, and I'll be the first to say it in our present metagame; Z-Moves are broken, let's face the truth. Yes they are fun; yes, they diversify the metagame, yes, it's a gen 7 mechanic, but all of that hurt the metagame rendering it less and less competitive.
Couldn't agree more tbh. Z moves have given every pokemon the potential to be there own mini-kyub, which limits the already selective metagame. However, if we do ban Z-moves, we would absolutely need to resuspect certzygodain pokemon, as the whole reason others, including myself, did not consider zygod to be extraordinarily unhealthy for the metagame was that you could rely on a z move to off it before it became an issue. Without Z-Moves, it's disgusting bulk would become unmanageable if you couldn't predict properly, or if you made your team specifically for zygod.
 
Last edited:

Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
Z Moves Megapost
with your host MaceMaster

Fun
Let's be real: Z moves are fun. Like, really fun. Imagine: Your opponent selects Zygarde, and you've sent in Tapu Koko. Your opponent experiences a rush of dopamine as he believes that the game has been won. Little did he know that you were using Fairium Z. Zygarde's health bar drops to zero instantaneously. Those are the moments I live for. However, they can also be not fun. Think about this: You send in your Magearna against Kyurem-B. You can taste victory. Suddenly, Kyurem's sprite is enveloped in an aura, and your stomach drops. "Kyurem-B used Tectonic Rage!" Fuck. Not so fun. You know what the best part of Z moves is? Barbaracle. Just Barbaracle. This brings me to my next point...

Diversity
Pokemon like Barbaracle are some of my favorite parts of 1v1. In what other metagame can Barbaracle hold a niche in a meta with behemoths like Mega Metagross? If it wasn't for my heat mons, I honestly don't even know if I would like 1v1 all that much. It's so rewarding to innovate. With this, we have to ask ourselves a couple of questions, however: "Where do Z moves stand in regards to innovation?" and "is more diversity better?" In regards to the first question, it can definitely be said that Z moves increase the number of viable Pokemon in 1v1. I'll tell you right now that if Z moves didn't exist, Salazzle, Zygarde-10%, Clefable, Barbaracle, Thundurus-T, Ninetales-A, Keldeo, Entei, Volcarona, Umbreon, Carracosta and Blissey wouldn't be ranked. In regards to whether this is a good thing, however, we enter an area of opinion. In one train of thought, more viable Pokemon means a less centralized metagame. Another idea, however, is that more viable Pokemon means more things you have to prep for, and therefore more things your team loses to, adding an element of uncompetitiveness.

1v1 as a Competitive Metagame
Lately, 1v1 has been becoming increasingly mainstream. There's been drastically more tournaments, and a revival of the analyses. With this, along with the considerations of Z moves' place in 1v1, it is important to define whether 1v1 is, and should be: a balanced and stable metagame like OU, or a laissez-faire tier for fun like AG. Some common arguments for 1v1 being uncompetitive are that it is a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors, and that is too dependent on luck. The luck dependency is definitely worse than 6v6, but is exaggerated. A crit or freeze can absolutely win you a game in 6v6. Why its less luck-dependent, though, is because the crit has to be at precisely the right moment whereas in 1v1, you either get a crit or don't. By the nature of 1v1, short battles, and in tournament play, best of 3-9 scenarios, these issues are somewhat mitigated, however. By amassing a large quantity of battles, the hax sort of just equals out. I don't know myself, but here's the implications if 1v1 was decided to be either fun or competitive. 1v1 for fun: Z moves are more fun than no Z moves. Banning them would be controversial, which is to say that they aren't considered to be obviously broken, and thus we let Z moves stay. 1v1 for competitiveness: How fun, enjoyable and rewarding the meta is isn't taken into account, and we ultimately decide to either ban or to not ban Z moves.

Hard Counters, C-Teaming, The Playerbase, and Lures
When Kyurem-B was suspected, the primary reason was as follows: Kyurem-B has a number of hard counters that is all but zero, and its sets beat radically different things from each other. Because of this, paired with the fact that all of its sets are indistinguishable at team preview, it can be argued that there is no way to reliably beat Kyurem-B unless you use certain Mega Metagross, SpD Magearna, Terrakion or Jirachi, resulting in a decrease in the importance of skill in the metagame. If we didn't have Z moves, would Pokemon like Kyurem-B still be a problem? Although it could be argued either way, I'm inclined to say yes. Looking at Kyurem-B's less common/lure sets (everything but Icium and Scarf), only three of the twelve sets utilize Z moves. Additionally, the other Pokemon that emulates the uncompetitve manner of Kyurem-B best, Charizard with its split Mega Evolutions, by nature of the mechanic, uses Z moves 0% of the time. Another thing to talk about is distinguishing between lures and c-teaming. Lures are a permanent fixture of a team, designed to fool opponents into picking the wrong 'mon while patching up the weaknesses of the team, while c-teams are active efforts by players to 3-0 someone else's team, thus getting a free win. C-teams are quite simply uncompetitive. C-teaming exists as a result of 1v1's small playerbase, which like it or not, is a reality. The ultimate thing to be considered with these ideas is whether or not Z moves contribute to the uncompetitiveness of the meta in the aforementioned regards and also whether or not these factors make 1v1 a meta "for fun" or "for competitiveness."

"Slap On a Z Crystal"
One thing that I've heard a lot is that Z moves are mindless, outclass other items, and dumb down the meta. I fervently disagree with this mindset. Let's take a look at a resource: the Sets VR. You'll find some Pokemon that use only Z moves, some that would never consider using Z moves, but for the most part, what you'll find is Pokemon who can perform moderately well with or without Z moves. Straight off the bat we can say that Z crystals do not outclass other items. As for the other points, stupid people will be stupid people. Every good player ever does not mindlessly slap Z crystals on their Pokemon. If someone does do this, that's their problem, and even if we ban Z moves, they will continue to be bad players. One other thing to talk about here is whether or not Z moves are overcentralizing. Looking back at the sets VR, excluding Mega Evolutions, you'll find that Z moves make up about half of the viable items in the meta. I do not see this as a problem, but for the sake of a fair analysis, I've included this idea.

As a Game Mechanic
One argument I've seen for not banning Z moves is that they are equivalent to a game mechanic. Quantum Tesseract had some really good thoughts on this, so I'm just gonna quote part of his post here:
Z moved are a mechanic, just like stealth rocks in gen 4 for singles or Mega Evolutions in gen 6, and its one we have to live with bar the most extreme circumstances. Banning items at all is supposed to be a big step; while form changing mega items are treated the same way as pokemon due to their mechanic, it does (and should) take something on the level of focus sash or past gen soul dew to cause it. You could treat it as a move ban, which I suppose is fair, but those have just as stringent conditions. By and large, we tier Pokemon. This means that the first resort is to ban abusers, and only proceed onwards after that has failed. Suspect Tapu Koko, or Mimikyu, or whichever mon you think is actually broken when using zmoves. If the community doesnt find them broken? C’est la vie.
I agree with most of this, but want to talk more about banning the users versus the mechanic some more. If something is going to be banned because it is overpowered, I definitely agree that the users, not the mechanic should be banned. However, this isn't about overpowered. This is about uncompetitive. If Z moves are uncompetitive, they should be banned outright instead of banning their individual users, as only one of them (in my opinion, of course) is actually broken.

The Meta Without Z Moves
What exactly the meta will look like after Z moves are banned cannot be said with any certainty. There certainly will be drastic changes to what's more or less viable, but that's not what I'm concerned about right now. What I'm concerned about is if certain Pokemon could become over or underwhelming without Z moves. In particular, I'm scared of Mega Gyarados and Zygarde. With Z moves gone, Koko, Lele and Mimikyu are sure to be far less viable. These three Pokemon are some of Mega Gyarados' best checks. While Gyarados' checks simply become less viable, Zygarde actually loses a lot of checks. While it can't brute past Magearna anymore, previously good checks like Swords Dance Mimikyu. I don't think that either will end up being broken, but if Z moves are banned, 1v1 will enter a completely new era, and the meta will have to be built from the ground up again.

Diversity Part 2
Previously, I talked about diversity in the manner of the number of Pokemon that are viable. Now I would like to talk about it in the manner of the number of sets that are viable. The thing that is causing me the most anxiety in regards to Z moves being banned is losing set diversity. Back to the Sets VR, you'll see that most non-mega Pokemon have at least one viable Z move set. The fear here is that the meta could become one-dimensional without Z moves. Here's some examples of Pokemon that would suffer not in viability, but in set diversity: Magearna (Fairium, Specs->Specs), Tapu Koko (Electrium, Fairium, Specs->Specs), Dragonite (Flyinium, Dragonium, Band->Band), Magnezone (Electrium, Specs, AB, Steelium->Specs, AB), Snorlax (Normalium, Curse->Curse), Primarina (Waterium, Specs, Fairium->Specs), etc.

Conclusion
Before we decide whether or not Z moves are broken, we need to decide what 1v1 is really about. When it is time, I encourage everyone to really think about what they want from 1v1. I myself don't know if I want them banned yet. If/when Z moves are suspected, I believe that it needs to be a long suspect. The meta will change in ridiculous ways with Z moves gone, so I think that we should let the meta develop during the suspect. One option, although some upper people might not be too excited about, I think would work remarkably well: we have two suspect ladders up at the same time (one with and one without Z moves). In order to vote, you'd have to get reqs on both ladders to demonstrate that you understand what the new meta would be like. I hope my post exposed you to some new perspectives. Thanks for reading.
 

Alakazam

Why'd you leave the keys upon the table
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
On The Topic Of Z Moves
I had a much longer, more logical argument I plan to write about Z-Moves, but 2/3rd of the way through, I realized it was too long and most people here, including myself, would tldr it. So I will condense my main thoughts about Z-Moves and how we should go about suspecting Z-Moves, if we do.

  1. Z Moves are different than a broken Pokemon. This one is more of a "no shit TDA", but the way we perceive them is very dissimilar. When there is a particular Pokemon that we are suspecting because it might be broken, the player can center their attention on One Specific Pokemon. Z Moves are a mechanic that can be applied to every Pokemon, which makes it more unclear to a player as to what to center their attention on, which relates to my next point.
  2. People on Showdown ban based on how they feel, not how they think. Lets review the ban history of Gen 7 1v1. The mons we have banned were Marshadow and Deoxys Defense. Marshadow has a move that steals your boosts and gives it to him, before the damage of the move is calculated. Deoxys Defense is a pokemon that stalls a pokemon to death, where not even crits sometimes can save you, as you lose two points of PP every turn and it uses recover. Both of these Pokemon feel Extremely Annoying to fight against. The next closest suspect to ban, Jirachi's at 59%, is a Pokemon that relies on flinching to win, a universally hated mechanic in Pokemon, which is still pretty annoying to fight, but has many counters in the meta that the ability to beat a huge portion of the metagame 60% of the time is slightly hindered, and the 59% ban vote is somewhat understandable. Zygod's suspect, at 57%, is a bulky pseudostaller who can boost with coil and doubles it's base HP when it reaches half, able to hit every Pokemon with it's stab signature move. Also very annoying, but has many solid counters found in special attackers, and other S/A rank pokemon in the tier. Finally, lets look at the weakest suspect we've had in Gen 7, Kyurem-Black's. It only received a 50% majority ban vote, a full 10% less than the required 60% to ban. Why did it get so little? Not because it wasn't broken when it was tested, just look at some Subzero Slammer calcs with bulky Kyurem, but because Kyurem is fun to use. It's easy and simple, no complicated multiturn strategies that rely on you taking advantage of passive abilities or flawed game mechanics. Marshadow was fun to use too, but the acknowledged annoyance of a boost-stealing move was able to counteract the rush of winning turn one. When something is fun, people don't want to get rid of it. It's why drug addictions are a thing. This leads into my third and final point,
  3. Z Moves are fun; people will not want to ban them. There's really nothing else to say with this. What's more awesome than completely annihilating your opponent in one move? Nothing. Z-Moves provide just that, and allows virtually every pokemon to have this potential. I fear that players will not see past the feeling of being able to destroy your opponent and start to think "Wow, isn't that power possibly overpowered?" Especially since we have had Z-Moves in the meta for about a year now; we should have nipped them in the bud, but the allure of the new Gen 7 mechanic was too much to at least not try.
I do not think people will think wholly logically about this, or at least enough people to matter. I admit that it is hard to support the removal of Z moves, because it is very satisfying when you one shot your opponent. But Z moves create the scenario that allows multiple pokemon to 3-0 multiple teams, that wouldn't be possible otherwise, and if that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is.

We have two ways to go about suspecting, if we decide to take that course. The first is to do a normal suspect test, which is fine, but the second way, which I think is more appropriate for a mechanic, is to have a suspect ladder with Z Moves banned, as we did with Kyurem-Black, ironically. People need to see that they can still have fun without Z Moves for people to clear their heads and accept that the mechanic as a whole isn't fit for a 1v1 environment. This could potentially lead to the problem of having legal Pokemon that were only able to be beaten by Z-Moves before (Zygod), but I'm sure the higher-ups can figure that one out.

Edit: MaceMaster just posted another essay about Z moves. I may or may not have said something he said, or something he refuted, either way I don't care I need to get back to work for today lmao
 
My Points:

The explosion/ self-destruct comparison.
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uh what the heck does this have to do with 1v1 zmoving explosion / self destruct just gives you a 200 bp normal move, which a lot of other moves can also give you, like hyper beam. except the thing is, explosion / self destruct kills you first, so you lose. I see literally no point to this argument, it just makes it look like you're grabbing at stuff as a means of being against zmoves, even if they don't make any sense. its like when people say mimikyu is broken in 1v1 because it can't die twice because it has focus sash, even when it's banned. it has nothing to do with the metagame.
 

Gross Sweep

is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
uh what the heck does this have to do with 1v1 zmoving explosion / self destruct just gives you a 200 bp normal move, which a lot of other moves can also give you, like hyper beam. except the thing is, explosion / self destruct kills you first, so you lose. I see literally no point to this argument, it just makes it look like you're grabbing at stuff as a means of being against zmoves, even if they don't make any sense. its like when people say mimikyu is broken in 1v1 because it can't die twice because it has focus sash, even when it's banned. it has nothing to do with the metagame.
Just a quick response since your reply puzzled me a little. When you use Z-Explosion or Z-SelfDestruct you don't die, just a little mechanical tidbit, but that's not important. I believe his blurb was more saying that having a Z-Move gives a lot of mons a move with a power similar to Explosion or Self-Destruct, yet it doesn't have the drawback of causing the user to faint. I thought it was more a comparison to mons like SR Lead Landorus-T, which you may or may not be familiar with, where the goal is to get up Stealth Rock while eating a hit with Focus Sash - then you use Explosion as it's such a powerful move that without a resist Landorus-T is often trading. In 1v1 that more means that mons have access to a nuke that takes out a solid number of things that don't resist. Basically equating that blurb to "it's a nuke that wins games without any thought aside from implementing a Z-move in your builder, which has no downside, and when it comes to the actual game you just click a single button and win"

I may be wrong in my interpretation as well, if so I welcome the original poster to comment for further clarification, more hope I helped Freddy Kyogre see why it was included. Also this wasn't me voicing my opinion on whether it's a solid argument or not (will be making a post later) "so please don't try and debate me specifically on that" just clarifying.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Gotta say, didn't expect to see you finally realizing the problems with 1v1.

Linking to some relevant reading regarding Z.

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3

Compiling everything + more, with arguments that are more than enough evidence and reason for a Z quickban: post in 2v2 Doubles that can be applied to 1v1 if you look past obvious differences

2v2 Doubles Post 2

This is just meant to get potentially unseen arguments out there, don't take me not replying here as me accepting counterarguments. No offence to anyone posting here, but the reality of why I don't post here and potentially wouldn't reply is because posts blatantly disregarding logic and Smogon standards get treated with equal value and hold equal standing as arguments, not to mention the "tiering philosophy" in place that doesn't help in that regard. Which makes for an unprogressive discussion, and a feeling of futility regarding both effort and time investment.

Also, I'd advise against having 2 different and highly important discussions on their own at once. The Z discussion seems to be becoming quite extensive (sadly), and the policy discussion is another important discussion that requires high post quality and attention and shouldn't be mixed in and diluted with other discussions and miscellaneous posts. You should either pick a discussion topic or have the policy discussion in its own thread. A separate policy discussion thread is actually something I've wanted for a while, for the reasons mentioned.
 

Gross Sweep

is a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
RMT Leader
State of the Metagame Address

This is a post I’ve been putting off for a few days. However, it’s time I, like many others, finally give my opinion on the state of the 1v1 metagame. I will start of by saying that I love the 1v1 metagame, and that if I didn’t love the Metagame I wouldn’t bother saying what I’m about to say. That is: The 1v1 metagame is in a poor place. I feel this is partially due to the mons and mechanics the seventh generation bequeathed upon us, and partially due to the 1v1 player base being new to Smogon causing them to be subpar contributors (obviously not everyone falls into this, just a decent sized proportion). With this in mind I will be giving my opinions on a few of the hotter topics in the 1v1 metagame. Hopefully giving some insight, and at the very least letting me vent on some of the more frustrating aspects that come with investing time in this tier.

Titans in the tier

There has recently been a lot of speculation on whether or not mons like Zekrom or even Ho-oh deserve a chance to descend from the heavens, and grace the 1v1 tier with their presence. I will say that while some posts on the matter were well thought out. The original post on Zekrom by The Official Glyx was solid, many others fail to measure up, causing the forums to drag. I definitely feel that while there is a time and a place for these kind of discussions 1v1 just isn’t ready for it in its current state, we can't stop it from becoming both slides simply slinging garbage at one another yet.

Also much of the 1v1 community uses the idea of “will it be broken or not” instead of asking the question of: will it be healthy? This leads to people theorizing about a mon like Zekrom, and whether or not it’s broken as the only facotr in whether or not it should be allowed. Not even realizing that they’re coming up with a list of 7-8 mons that can handle this newly suggested threat, which starts to put it in the realm of Kyurem-B. This fact saddens me as I don’t see why people desire adding a new threat with 3 counters and a handful of checks into the metagame. It is my opinion that our community should be focused on a fun, playable, and diverse metagame which just isn’t a metagame I foresee when we start allowing centralizing Ubers.

Concluding this with a plea for the player base to stop bringing up Zekrom, Giratina-O, and Ho-Oh as they won’t lead to a healthy metagame, and they don’t lead to good discussion.

Untouchables
+

The Tier Leaders in 1v1 have made it pretty clear on a pair of hot bed topics that they aren’t truly considering a change. Those two topics being Sleep and Species Clause. While I truly consider both of these topics as valid discussion points it’s just not worth the headache that comes with talking to a wall at this point.

I brought up Species Clause, and DEG gave his reasons as to why it’s not happening while shutting down further discussion – I didn’t necessarily agree with those reasons, but it’s beating a dead horse to try anything more based on responses in the thread.

Sleep is a bit more controversial as the community is pretty evenly split, but the council remains pretty tough on it. While some arguments have been better than others, a few solid points of discussion have definitely legitimatized this concern. Anyway this is a topic that I truly believe needs to be addressed, but only when the Council is ready to listen. Also for the record I would vote No Ban on this, yet I still feel this needs serious discussion that isn’t discouraged by TLs. Meaning I hope a Council member comes forward with the discussion topic of sleep when they deem appropriate (never is not an appropriate time).

Z-Moves

The new hot debate is Z-Moves, controversial since release the Z-move debate is finally picking up traction. There have been several posts on how Z-moves work, and what they bring to the table, yet it’s all a mess. I feel like a lot of the discussion is falling on deaf ears as neither sides really is accepting what the other has to say. This is pretty normal for a Smogon thread, so it doesn’t upset me. The one thing I want to make reference to with this is please avoid poor responses. Too often are people reading someone’s lengthy opinion, then writing a quick few sentence blurb on how they completely disagree with the post while bringing nothing to the discussion. Instead I urge forum users to comment on a post if they feel it’s necessary, and then introduce a new concept to the thread. All posts should have some new idea brought up, not just 2 sentence comments going back and forth as it lowers the thread quality. This has turned into more of a forum etiquette section, so I’ll try to move the focus to Z-Moves.

I personally find myself in the camp of Ban, yet I’d more like to break down certain arguments I’ve been seeing in the room and the thread that bother me.

  • It’s a nuke that leads to one turn games
This is the 1v1 tier, if you’re upset with low turn games you’re in the wrong tier. Even in ORAS a solid proportion of games ended in 1-2 turns (with many first turn one shots). If you don’t like to play that style use a Chansey, but if you expect some sort of bulky offense faceoff that lasts 5-6 turns with 2-3 50/50s you need to adjust your expectations of 1v1 since that’s not happening even with a Z-Move ban.

  • Diversify the metagame
Yes Z-Moves give a lot of mons life in the metagame, as they have access to a newfound power that lets them pickup knockouts they otherwise couldn’t making them viable. This is fundamentally flawed in my opinion as it’s not the duty of TLs to protect mons with a lower viability. This usually translates to shutting down “If Kyurem-B were banned mons A, B, C…Z would be better”. Translating that over to "if Z moves were banned so many mons would become unusable", is trash. If a particular mon can’t handle the meta it’s not the Councils responsibility to help keep low level mons viable in the meta. I think it should be a question of is the power Z-moves provide too much for the meta? If a bad mon suffers it’s collateral.

  • Ban abusers not the mechanic
While I agree that if there were 2-3 mons needed to be banned this would apply, but this is a far reaching issue. Many mons are only viable because of a Z-Move, and some are only broken because of them. Z-Moves are far to centralizing to push aside as a ban the abuser mentality. Not much else to say on this topic. This argument is the most solid out of the three, it more just personally doesn't sit well with me.


Concluding this section with a reiteration that while I feel a Ban would be healthy for the metagame, I’ve lost a lot of faith in how much a post on the subject really matters in this thread. Meaning I’ll wait for a suspect, rather than make a long persuasive post on the subject that affects no opinions on the matter.

The Council

The 1v1 metagame is home to an oddly disliked council. It’s no secret that the 1v1 council has some issues in community perception, so just to shine some light from my perspective (Last gen 1v1 player, and Room Moderator in the 1v1 room) on the council I’ll be breaking down all the members of the council (Including the two new members).

MaceMaster – No one can really question whether or not Mace knows the metagame, he does. Serving on the 1v1 VR council with Mace he undoubtedly was the most active member, so I have high hopes he’ll bring a lot of energy to the council. The only area I think he could have issues with at first is coming off as leader to the community, as he’s friend first right now which could lead to a respect issue, but hopefully time will help and he’ll develop into a great council member.

UnleashOurPassion – One of my best friends in the community, I am tremendously happy with his addition to the council. He’s qualified, and the only problem that could occur from this is issue with stress. UOP has had some hard moments dealing with pressure, stepping down from 1v1 room staff for a bit, which means he may have some trouble dealing with the neglect that comes with being a 1v1 TL (especially as he isn't one to deflect blame). That’s more a friendly worry though as I hate to see anything even remotely bad happen to him, and I’m sure he’ll do great.

Uselesscrab – UC is a true bridge to ORAS. He was a mature active user in ORAS who was a big help when I first started playing the tier, and got added to the council early SM. Since then his activity has significantly dropped due to life away from PS, and if he hadn’t gotten TL status earlier this gen I don’t feel he would have been added in the last update. That being said he’s still a very mature user who isn’t going to make rash decisions, and will always consider what's best for the meta. I feel he still has the potential to become the great TL we all envisioned when he was given power, just be patient and when he finally has some more free time for us I'm sure he'll do great things.

The Immortal – Probably the least appreciated TL. Isn’t thought to be incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to the current gen7 metagame. However, he’s very knowledgeable of Smogon workings, and with that is important to the 1v1 tier. The M Dragon of 1v1 is still essential to the behind the scenes workings of 1v1 which is often overlooked by a large majority of the playerbase.

DEG – The most important TL in 1v1. Works a lot on projects for the community, and while he’s not a very active ladder player that can be looked past when the whole picture is considered. While some people will still comment that playing the tier is important, I feel like someone has to do the grunt work. That person is Deg, and he’s what makes the tier run. I’m glad he’s finally starting to voice his opinions with Z-moves, it’s a nice step policy wise for him – better than those pre-suspects we had early on. Glad he’s a TL, future is bright for 1v1 with him around.

The Community

1v1 is a very well-meaning community, yet it’s very new to forums. Many 1v1 players are limited to just posting during suspect tests, and that leads to some bad discussions. Firstly, the number of one liners is atrocious (Make Deg mod to help fix this). Secondly, people can’t focus on a suspect test. All the discussion of banning/reallowing another mon during a suspect is truly awful. As a community we need to focus. Deoxys-D suspect is not the time to discuss Kyurem-B, and the Jirachi suspect isn’t the time to discuss Zekrom. I feel like that should be common sense, but apparently not.

This is more giving the forum time. Many newer users to Smogon contributing to their first forum is bound to have some bumps, and that’s what I feel this is. In the future I ask the forum mods to be harder on bad posters (deleting and warning bad posts) in order to help shape a better future.

The Future

I have high hopes for the 1v1 community. I feel it can become great, maybe it will never earn a spot in the OMGS – but it can at the very least earn a public room… (Winks at people above my paygrade who make those kinds of decisions). I won’t drag this more than I have to, so I’ll end it with this: 1v1 is a tier with so much untapped potential, yet a few bad seeds can keep it in the shadows, it’s time we start holding each other accountable and get 1v1 to where it can be.
 
Last edited:
State of the Metagame Address

This is a post I’ve been putting off for a few days. However, it’s time I, like many others, finally give my opinion on the state of the 1v1 metagame. I will start of by saying that I love the 1v1 metagame, and that if I didn’t love the Metagame I wouldn’t bother saying what I’m about to say. That is: The 1v1 metagame is in a poor place. I feel this is partially due to the mons and mechanics the seventh generation bequeathed upon us, and partially due to the 1v1 player base being new to Smogon causing them to be subpar contributors (obviously not everyone falls into this, just a decent sized proportion). With this in mind I will be giving my opinions on a few of the hotter topics in the 1v1 metagame. Hopefully giving some insight, and at the very least letting me vent on some of the more frustrating aspects that come with investing time in this tier.

Titans in the tier

There has recently been a lot of speculation on whether or not mons like Zekrom or even Ho-oh deserve a chance to descend from the heavens, and grace the 1v1 tier with their presence. I will say that while some posts on the matter were well thought out. The original post on Zekrom by The Official Glyx was solid, many others fail to measure up, causing the forums to drag. I definitely feel that while there is a time and a place for these kind of discussions 1v1 just isn’t ready for it in its current state, we can't stop it from becoming both slides simply slinging garbage at one another yet.

Also much of the 1v1 community uses the idea of “will it be broken or not” instead of asking the question of: will it be healthy? This leads to people theorizing about a mon like Zekrom, and whether or not it’s broken as the only facotr in whether or not it should be allowed. Not even realizing that they’re coming up with a list of 7-8 mons that can handle this newly suggested threat, which starts to put it in the realm of Kyurem-B. This fact saddens me as I don’t see why people desire adding a new threat with 3 counters and a handful of checks into the metagame. It is my opinion that our community should be focused on a fun, playable, and diverse metagame which just isn’t a metagame I foresee when we start allowing centralizing Ubers.

Concluding this with a plea for the player base to stop bringing up Zekrom, Giratina-O, and Ho-Oh as they won’t lead to a healthy metagame, and they don’t lead to good discussion.
I think, rather than discussing one aspect of its impact on the meta, a discussion on all three aspects-brokenness, competitiveness, and unhealthiness-could lead to better understanding of its place in the 1v1 game. We wouldn't want to unban a Pokemon which is neither broken not uncompetitive, but is unhealthy for the meta or hither similar cases.

Untouchables
+
The Tier Leaders in 1v1 have made it pretty clear on a pair of hot bed topics that they aren’t truly considering a change. Those two topics being Sleep and Species Clause. While I truly consider both of these topics as valid discussion points it’s just not worth the headache that comes with talking to a wall at this point.

I brought up Species Clause, and DEG gave his reasons as to why it’s not happening while shutting down further discussion – I didn’t necessarily agree with those reasons, but it’s beating a dead horse to try anything more based on responses in the thread.
Here
Sleep is a bit more controversial as the community is pretty evenly split, but the council remains pretty tough on it. While some arguments have been better than others (Shout out to TI for giving us the biggest meme of gen7 1v1 with his Lum Berry suggestion btw). Anyway this is a topic that I truly believe needs to be addressed, but only when the Council is ready to listen. Also for the record I would vote No Ban on this, yet I still feel this needs serious discussion that isn’t discouraged by TLs. Meaning I hope a Council member comes forward with the discussion topic of sleep when they deem appropriate (never is not an appropriate time).
While this discussion might have been initiated at the wrong time in the thread, I think it's a bit unfair to totally shut down potential discussion even at a later point in time.

Yes Z-Moves give a lot of mons life in the metagame, as they have access to a newfound power that lets them pickup knockouts they otherwise couldn’t making them viable. This is fundamentally flawed in my opinion as it’s not the duty of TLs to protect mons with a lower viability. This usually translates to shutting down “If Kyurem-B were banned mons A, B, C…Z would be better”. Translating that over to "if Z moves were banned so many mons would become unusable", is trash. If a particular mon can’t handle the meta it’s not the Councils responsibility to help keep low level mons viable in the meta. I think it should be a question of is the power Z-moves provide too much for the meta? If a bad mon suffers it’s collateral.
While I agree that if there were 2-3 mons needed to be banned this would apply, but this is a far reaching issue. Many mons are only viable because of a Z-Move, and some are only broken because of them. Z-Moves are far to centralizing to push aside as a ban the abuser mentality. Not much else to say on this topic. This argument is the most solid out of the three, it more just personally doesn't sit well with me.
I think this is the double standards part. Not on you, Gross Sweep, but how can they call for a ban on individual OP SereneGrace+Flinch users, Sleep abusers, but not on ZMove users.


The Community

1v1 is a very well-meaning community, yet it’s very new to forums. Many 1v1 players are limited to just posting during suspect tests, and that leads to some bad discussions. Firstly, the number of one liners is atrocious (Make Deg mod to help fix this). Secondly, people can’t focus on a suspect test. All the discussion of banning/reallowing another mon during a suspect is truly awful. As a community we need to focus. Deoxys-D suspect is not the time to discuss Kyurem-B, and the Jirachi suspect isn’t the time to discuss Zekrom. I feel like that should be common sense, but apparently not.

This is more giving the forum time. Many newer users to Smogon contributing to their first forum is bound to have some bumps, and that’s what I feel this is. In the future I ask the forum mods to be harder on bad posters (deleting and warning bad posts) in order to help shape a better future.

The Future

I have high hopes for the 1v1 community. I feel it can become great, maybe it will never earn a spot in the OMGS – but it can at the very least earn a public room… (Winks at people above my paygrade who make those kinds of decisions). I won’t drag this more than I have to, so I’ll end it with this: 1v1 is a tier with so much untapped potential, yet a few bad seeds can keep it in the shadows, it’s time we start holding each other accountable and get 1v1 to where it can be.
Thanks for expressing your confidence in us, Grows Sweep, we'll make sure we carry forward all your gen6 legacy and hope to make it a competitive AND fun meta! :)
 

Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Hi, I've been appointed a council member for 1v1 and I'm incredibly grateful for that! I'll do my best to make 1v1 a better place. So now that I'm a council member I should post about my view on important subjects like bans....

Nah that'd be too easy


0: Hello everyone
If you've been keeping up with 1v1 you'll know that I don't usually make posts that start with a 0. Last time I did that was actually 6 months and 12 days ago as I'm writing this, which means it's time for me to come back with some big post about maths.

I'm honestly not sure where to start this one because it's not nearly as black-and-white as EVs and optimization. I guess I'll have to start by mentioning a certain user who broke all the records previously set in gen 7 1v1, which was a great accomplishment. He should also be credited for the Metagross-killer Tapu Koko set.



Interesting how I keep falling back on Tapu Koko during these posts
Notice anything interesting about this Koko?
No, I'm not actually talking about the EVs it has, I made a post about that before which you can find here btw. I'm actually talking about the EVs it doesn't have.
In order to create an offensive set that still survives the required hits, or a defensive set that still manages to pick up necessary KOs, you'll need to get those EVs from somewhere. That's why I started writing this post I call


UnleashOurPassion's guide to...
Saving EVs
Another 5 hours of my life wasted


1: Why would I save EVs?
Imagine you're attempting building a set and you're just a few EVs short, it'd be nice to know where to pull those EVs from, if possible. But more importantly if you're like me and building sets without thinking much, and you don't feel like thinking about what you do and don't want to beat... Then it's very nice to be able to quickly pull some sliders and still end up with a set that's at least as good as your original set.

UnleashOurPassion have you gone mad? Why do you keep talking about creating EVs out of nowhere
stop not making sense
All right I get it, you don't like reading the parts of my post that I'm just writing to serve as a filler. Trust me though these parts are necessary to keep your attention, or at least I like to think they are.
I'm getting sidetracked again, time for section two!


2: An example of "deadweight EVs"
First things first, allow me to define deadweight EVs for you using an example.


You are now looking at a generic 252/252 physical Tapu Koko spread. Which is the standard for a lot of people and there isn't much wrong with it, but this is a very noticeable case of deadweight EVs. Let's make a list of Pokémon sorted by speed, starting at base 393 speed and just going down until we find something interesting.
392 - Necrozma-Ultra - That's banned anyway
390 - Meloetta-Pirouette - Needs a turn to get to that point, Koko won't let it
388 - Adamant Scarf Hoopa-Unbound
388 - Shaymin-Sky - That's also banned
386 - Talonflame - Hardly used
383 - Darkrai - Banned
383 - Marshadow - Banned
383 - Swellow - Irrelevant
383 - Weavile - Hardly used
381 - Ribombee - Irrelevant
379 - Noivern - Irrelevant
377 - Greninja

Adamant Scarf Hoopa-U is somewhat used I think... I think...

I assume you can see what I'm getting at here, Tapu Koko is using its EVs running max speed in order to outspeed and OHKO uh... Swellow and Ribombee...? It seems like a good idea to just cut out those EVs (and while we're at it let's remove the 4 EVs in defense).



We just freed up some EVs on our Tapu Koko and the only thing we lose to in the process is a bunch of irrelevant Pokémon and an infrequently used Hoopa set. Sounds good to me.

How can 64 EVs make a difference?
Good question I have no idea

You could be like me and just put them in Defense or Special Defense assuming they'll help you tank something, or you could apply calcs to the EVs if you have time to do so. For convenience sake and for the sake of this post we'll pretend I have time to do calcs.

252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 136-162 (48.3 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Tapu Koko: 127-151 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
That's about the most useful calc I could find with these EVs, but it's an improvement nonetheless. Also trust me from the amount of damage I'm taking from Jirachi Iron Heads I feel like they're running Adamant for some reason. Time to bring back those Jolly Scarf Darmanitan!


3: How to avoid running too much speed.
The first thing I usually do when making a set is going to the 1v1 Speed Tiers (will most likely be updated soon) or using the /ds command on Pokémon Showdown to find out what I speed tie with. The advantage of using speed tiers here is they also include common Choice Scarf users, which /ds doesn't include.

If I find I beat most or all of these Pokémon, I usually don't bother changing my speed EVs, although you'll have to consider their viability, usage and your chance to beat them.

If I find I don't beat most of them, I end up going down the speed tiers or /ds until I find a place I'm comfortable putting my Pokémon.

This is what I found when I checked if I could drop my Terrakion a little bit. As you can tell there's nothing on that list that beats Terrakion even if Terrakion is slower (Blacephalon fails to KO with a Specs Shadow Ball) so I can safely drop Terrakion down to equivalent to 106 base speed. I also know base 105 holds Mega Pinsir, which is not something I want to lose to, so I'm putting my Terrakion on 228 EVs. Doesn't seem like much but that allows me to run more Attack with the Defense I'm running, which leads to a more reliable matchup in some cases.


4: Happy Laddering!

I would write more but it's 3am I'm literally falling asleep on my keyboard so goodbye world

Note: I want to suggest people actually start running Jolly Scarf Darmanitan to spice up ladder a bit.
 
I'd like to address the Z-Moves issue from a different angle,so welcome to

How the metagame will be without Z-Moves

We'll take a look at the Viability Rankings and try to imagine a Z-Less metagame.
S Rank

Not really affected by a Z-Move ban since the everpresent Fairy types that threaten it will simply resort to a Choice item.
Gyarados-Mega

Loses one of its best sets,but a handful of counters as well.
Kyurem-Black

A+ Rank


Charizard-Mega-X
One of the Pokemon that will benefit the most from a Z-Move ban,losing half of its counters.Will most likely rise to S Rank.

Will probably benefit from a Z-Move ban,but not much since most of its checks do not need a Z-Crystal to beat it.
Metagross-Mega

Will resort to bad sets in order to be viable.Loses LSF,Z-Curse and Z-Charm,and will most likely have to rely on the predictable Curse set.
Will most likely drop to B+

Mimikyu

Loses its only viable sets,namely Electrium and Fairium.Could see some use with Specs,but will most likely drop to B
Tapu Kok

Loses its best set,but Choice Specs should still deal a lot of damage.It will probably be unable to beat Charizard X nevertheless.
Tapu Lele

A Rank


Charizard-Mega-Y
Will probably benefit from Tapu Koko being not so used,but its Rock weakness will prevent it from rising higher up in usage.

Will have to resort in using a Choice Band.Will most likely drop to B+
Dragonite

Its biggest niche was to counter Koko,but it will lose a lot of counters as well.Will most likely drop to A-
Lopunny-Mega

Will lose its Fairium-Z set and thus it will be predictable.Will most likely drop to A-
Magearna

Isn't affected much by a Z-Move ban.
Mawile-Mega

A- Rank

Will lose its arguably best set in Ghostium-Z,but it will resort to using Weakness Policy again,thus becoming really predictable.Will most likely drop to B+
Aegislash

Loses its only good sets in Flyinium-Z and Groundium-Z.Will most likely drop to B-,or even C+
Landorus-Therian

Loses its best set in Electrium-Z,but it can run Choice Specs and Air Baloon.Could drop to B+,but will most likely stay where it is.
Magnezone

Not affected much by a Z-Move ban.
Pinsir-Mega

Choice Specs will rise in usage and Choice Scarf will drop,it will remain a threat.
Porygon-Z

Loses its best set in Normalium-Z and thus it will have to rely in using Curse paired with Gluttony.Will most likely drop to B+ or even B
Snorlax

Loses a handful of its counters.Might rise to A
Slowbro-Mega

Loses nearly all of its counters,but it is still countered by common Pokemon.Could rise to A.
Venusaur-Mega

Will most definitely rise to A+.Will be hard to defeat.
Zygarde-Complete

B+ Rank

Not many things can break through it.Will most likely rise to A-
Aggron-Mega




Not affected much by a Z-Move ban.
Blaziken

Loses its best set,so it will most likely move to C+.Sub+Endeavor could have a niche.

Donphan

Loses and gains counters at the same time.
Garchomp

Could rise to A+ thanks to its amazing offensive capabilities.
Gardevoir-Mega

Not affected much,but might see some problems with Specs HP Fire users.
Genesect

Loses its 2 best sets,and the only set that could work out is Choice Band.Will drop to C.
Golem

Loses a handful of counters and an unused set.Will most likely raise to A-
Greninja

Most likely wont be used much due to the drop of Sturdy pokemon.Will drop to B or B-
Heracross-Mega

Not affected by Z-Move ban.
Jumpluff

Choice Scarf Lele will become a thing,but it will still be used for its great typing.
Naganadel

Loses its best set and will have to rely on Choice Specs,which can't counter sturdy pokemon.Too frail for a bulky sweeper and too slow for a fast sweeper.Will most likely drop to C+,Leftovers might be used.
Primarina

Will finally gain the upper hand versus Primarina thanks to its bulk,but it loses 2 out of the 3 sets it usually runs.Might drop to B.
Tapu Fini

B Rank

Not affected much by a Z-Move ban.
Altaria-Mega

Could be utilised for its offensive capabilities.Might rise to B+
Blastoise-Mega

Will be hard to break.Will most definitely rise to A-
Chansey

Will be hard to break,but Fire types are everpresent.
Ferrothorn

Could be utilized as a Charizard counter.
Heatran

Will stick to its Choice Scarf set.
Jirachi

Loses Steelium,but there is always Scarf and Band.
Kartana

Its wallbreaking capabilities for which it was famous in ORAS can finally be utilized again.Will most likely rise to even A-
Meloetta

Will stick with Choice Specs,probably will rise to B+
Necrozma

Loses a lot of counters.Could rise to B+
Sableye-Mega

Will be used to counter a lot of different threats.Will most likely rise to B+
Sawk

Will se a lot of usage as a meta counter.Could rise to A-
Tyranitar-Mega

B- Rank

No reason to use it since it no longer gets Z-Charm.Will drop to C or C-
Blissey

Choice Band will be everywhere and Choice Scarf could see some usage.Will most likely rise to B.
Buzzwole

Loses its Rockium-Z set so I can't imagine what it can run.Will drop to C-.
Carracosta

Not much will be able to break through it,Will raise to B+.
Celesteela

Loses its best set,but there is a bunch of others it can use.
Crustle

Could see usage as a Charizard counter.
Diancie-Mega

Will be utilized in order to defeat meta Pokemon,as akways.Could see some problems with Scarf HP Fire users.
Durant

Will still rely on its HypnoHex set.Not much will change.
Gengar-Mega

Appreciates the drop in Bug types,but not the rise in Fairy types.WIll still hit hard and might rise to B
Hoopa-Unbound

It will make a comeback and become one of the hardest hitters in the metagame.Could rise to B+.
Latios

Loses the Mewnium-Z set,but a lot of counters as well.
Mew

Will most likely outclass Snorlax as a Yawn user thanks to its typing.CounterCoat could see some usage as well.
Swampert-Mega

Will rely on using a Choice Band,otherwise there is really no reason to use it.
Terrakion

Choice Scarf set will dominate.
Togekiss

C+ Rank

Choice Scarf and Choice Band will be the best sets as usual
Archeops

Weakness Policy will be the most common set,while Choice Band could see some usage.
Avalugg

It will run exclusively Yawn/Protect.
Camerupt-Mega

It's finally Gallade's chance to shine and to reveal its capabilities!Will be used as a meta counter,and shall rise to B or B+
Gallade-Mega

Along with Gallade,it will be a great wallbreaker.Might rise to B+
Lucario-Mega

Being able to counter steel types,it could see a spot at B-
Marowak-Alola

One of the hardest hitters in the metagame,will most definitely rise to B+
Medicham-Mega

Choice Specs or mixed will dominate,and they might bring Pheromosa to B-.

Pheromosa

Excellent wallbreaker,even though it loses its Grassium-Z set.Could rise to B-.
Tapu Bulu

Loses its Z-Charm set,which will make it drop to C or C-
Umbreon

Will hit hard and beat Steel types,might rise to B.
Victini

No reason to use it since it can no longer utilize Z-Moves.Will drop to C or C-
Volcarona

Not much will be able to KO it,so it could see a rise to B-.
Whimsicott

C Rank

Will hit hard and run a Choice item,could rise to B-
Blacephalon

Unfortunately,there is not much reason to use Entei since it can no longer utilize Rockium or Firium Z.Will drop to unranked.
Entei

Choice Scarf and Choice Band will be the only sets it will run.
Excadrill

Could have potential as a Swords Dance sweeper.
Garchomp-Mega

Endure-Reversal will hit hard,could rise to C+
Hitmonlee

Loses Grassium,but it has its niche nevertheless.Will drop to C- or D.
Infernape

Choice Specs could see some usage.
Keldeo

Kommo-0 loses Kommonium-Z,therefore there is no reason to use it.Will drop to unranked.
Kommo-o

Hits surprisingly hard with Sheer Force and Choice Specs,therefore it could rise to C+ or even B-
Landorus

Great Stored Power sweeper.Could see some use at C+
Latias-Mega

Loses its Fairium-Z set,therefore it will drop to unranked.
Ninetales-Alola

Feather Dance utility could bring this Pokemon to C+
Pidgeot-Mega

Great stalling capabilities.Could rise to C+ or even B-.
Porygon2

No reason to use it since it loses its Rockium-Z set,so it cannot even Yawn.Will drop to unranked.
Relicanth

Hits hard with a Choice Banded Gyro Ball and thus it could be utilised.Could go to C+ or even B-.
Stakataka

Choice Specs will hit hard,and it might even rise to B.
Thundurus-Therian

C- Rank

There isn't really any reason to use this pokemon any more.
Abomasnow-Mega

Loses its Z-Move set,therefore will drop to unranked.
Barbaracle

Will most likely rise to C because of its Speed.
Manectric-Mega

Choice Specs could see usage at C+.
Nihilego

Benefited a lot from Z-Moves ban,so we could even see it at B-.
Pyukumuku

Might rise to C thanks to its great stats and Technician Bullet Punch.
Scizor-Mega

Since you've wasted your time reading this,come discuss with us in the 1v1 room about Z-Moves.Please.
 
Last edited:
Let's say a Z-Move suspect did happen and they got banned.Pokemon that would be less useful in a no Z-Move meta:

1)
076.png

First of all POOR GOLEM.
rockiumz.png
64.675%
groundiumz.png
31.861%
That's 96.536% of all Golems with a Z-Move. It'll have to resort to Choice Band and Weakness Policy because Custap Berry is unreleased. Even if you run Choice Band it can't PROTECT itself from Fake Out users like Lopunny.

2)
689.png

It'll be unranked. End of story.
rockiumz.png
86.151%
leftovers.png
9.527%
That was quick.

3)
232.png

Oh hey look another sturdy pokemon. Huh.
groundiumz.png
74.668%
rockiumz.png
19.808%
poisoniumz.png
1.2247%
Again if it ran Choice Band it wouldn't be able to PROTECT itself from Fake Out...also couldn't run Ice Shard as effectively. Endeavor+Ice Shard would become the common Donphan also Counter.

4)
558.png

Have we talked about how a Z-Move ban will affect Sturdy pokemon yet?
rockiumz.png
95.141%
I mean... It's 4 Moves might be good with a Choice Band.

Okay, no more Sturdys I think you get the point.

5)
244.png

Flame Doggo will get it hard.
rockiumz.png
86.855%
assaultvest.png
5.209%
firiumz.png
4.562%
Entei relies heavily on Z-moves and again we see a pokemon heavily reliant on Z-Moves resorting to Choice Items ,and in this case Assault Vest.

6)
730.png

Please be gentle on Prim ಥ╭╮ಥ.
primariumz.png
55.086% (Primarium Z)
wateriumz.png
24.582% (Waterium Z)
fairiumz.png
14.935%
Primarina is used for is typing and its ability to counter Sturdy pokemon. Primarina will lose its ability to counter Sturdy pokemon if it just goes to a Choice item like all of the above because you dont really want to be running a Choice Specs Aqua Jet Primarina.

7)
645-s.png

Never thought I'd see the day where Landorus-Therian drops in usage... in any meta.
flyiniumz.png
44.398%
groundiumz.png
41.197%
Landorus-Therian most commonly runs Bulk-Up and Substitute so without them (of course going to Choice Band(and maybe even Choice Scarf)) I wouldn't be surprised if it fell to B on the viability rankings.

CONCLUSION
The most common thing of why people want Z-Moves banned is that its so easy to just "Slap on a Z-Move" but without them it'll be to just "Slap on a Choice item".
 
Let's say a Z-Move suspect did happen and they got banned.Pokemon that would be less useful in a no Z-Move meta:

1)View attachment 101251
First of all POOR GOLEM.
That's 96.536% of all Golems with a Z-Move. It'll have to resort to Choice Band and Weakness Policy because Custap Berry is unreleased. Even if you run Choice Band it can't PROTECT itself from Fake Out users like Lopunny.

2)View attachment 101256
It'll be unranked. End of story.
That was quick.

3)View attachment 101259
Oh hey look another sturdy pokemon. Huh.
Again if it ran Choice Band it wouldn't be able to PROTECT itself from Fake Out...also couldn't run Ice Shard as effectively. Endeavor+Ice Shard would become the common Donphan also Counter.

4)View attachment 101264
Have we talked about how a Z-Move ban will affect Sturdy pokemon yet?
I mean... It's 4 Moves might be good with a Choice Band.

Okay, no more Sturdys I think you get the point.

5)View attachment 101270
Flame Doggo will get it hard.
Entei relies heavily on Z-moves and again we see a pokemon heavily reliant on Z-Moves resorting to Choice Items ,and in this case Assault Vest.

6)View attachment 101276
Please be gentle on Prim ಥ╭╮ಥ.
View attachment 10127755.086% (Primarium Z)
View attachment 10127824.582% (Waterium Z)
View attachment 10127914.935%
Primarina is used for is typing and its ability to counter Sturdy pokemon. Primarina will lose its ability to counter Sturdy pokemon if it just goes to a Choice item like all of the above because you dont really want to be running a Choice Specs Aqua Jet Primarina.

7)View attachment 101284
Never thought I'd see the day where Landorus-Therian drops in usage... in any meta.
Landorus-Therian most commonly runs Bulk-Up and Substitute so without them (of course going to Choice Band(and maybe even Choice Scarf)) I wouldn't be surprised if it fell to B on the viability rankings.

CONCLUSION
The most common thing of why people want Z-Moves banned is that its so easy to just "Slap on a Z-Move" but without them it'll be to just "Slap on a Choice item".
This conclusion comes at quite a surprise. You displayed great evidence to show that there are many mons that abuse and are only useful because of their Z moves, at least from the usage. Without the inclusion of said Z moves, nowhere does this evidence, from both this generation and the last generation, point to a Choice item abuse, besides rash conclusions*. I bring up the last generation because, although there is an inclusion of new mons, the field from XY to the SMs stays relatively the same strength. Given these factors, there's a lot more that these mons can abuse, much better, than just Choice items.
Golem used to be bad, but it had its niche as a sturdy/WP abuser.
Donphan was just bad, and it still will be bad. With that being said, the Endeavor Substitute idea, props to whoever came up with that, should still pick up random wins time to time.
Crustle, unless your name is TDA, still has access to another asset called Shell Smash., so even the decent Choice Band set could be easily overshadowed by a complementary item, such as Lum Berry or >White Herb.
Entei still isn't viable, sorry Karl.
Primarina's a decent mon. This is perhaps one mon that could enjoy the presence of a choice item, but other harder hitters could overshadow it; however, its typing is unique enough to serve a decent niche from time to time.
Landorus-Therian is a meme without its Z spam. Last gen, it was bad, this gen it is going to be bad again without a high Stab. I guess you could still have bulk up memes, but that also doesn't require a choice item.
The general point is that there is much much more than a choice items in this game.
Therefore, the conclusion that should be made from all the evidence displayed would be something along lines of, "Without Z moves, a lot of mons lose their viability and will potentially drop down due to better, more 'creative' sets coming into play. The addition of Z moves helped diversify the meta from the previous Generation, and this process will become quickly reversed; however new mons may be sprinkled into the mix if they still find their way into the viability rankings."

Now one group that could have been included in this post would be the Tapu's.
Tapu Lele loses its primary item, but the bulky Choice Specs is still wonderfully viable.
Tapu Koko is pretty weak, and I still have no idea what it's going to do if Z moves become banned.
Tapu Bulu is a smasher with Choice Banded Wood Hammer (although Z-Grass hits harder).
And Tapu Fini is still bad with a Specs zzz

That's all I have, I guess, i'm pretty bad.
If you have any disparities with my points, feel free to respond because science.
*these conclusions could be correct for all i know, but looking at what's happened so far, they don't seem right.
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
With all the discussion around Z-moves floating around, I'd like to point out/suggest that we still haven't really scratched the surface of how far deep the pool of mons that are usable with Z-moves really goes.

As some of you may know, I've been building sets for legendary mons for a good long while now, and it was only just recently that I finally finished procrastinating building them all... and that's pretty much it, so, without further ado, let's delve into some legendary mons!

Just a quick note, though. When looking through these sets, please bear in mind that the main goal of me making these was to either breathe life into a Pokemon that didn't really receive much attention before this, or shine a new light on Pokemon that were already used pretty heavily in 1v1.

Starting off the list, the legendary birds!
250px-144ArticunoIcon.png

250px-144Articuno.png

Articuno @ Icium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 160 HP / 72 Def / 156 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Haze
- Blizzard
- Reflect
250px-145ZapdosIcon.png

250px-145Zapdos.png

Zapdos @ Electrium Z
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 8 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Reflect
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
250px-146MoltresIcon.png

250px-146Moltres.png

Moltres @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 40 Def / 144 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Burn Up

Next up, we have the legendary dogs Beasts!
250px-244EnteiIcon.png

250px-244Entei.png

Entei @ Firium Z
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 232 HP / 72 Atk / 200 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
245.png

250px-245Suicune.png

Suicune @ Waterium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 64 SpA / 36 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Reflect
- Surf
- Rest
250px-243RaikouIcon.png

250px-243Raikou.png

Raikou @ Electrium Z
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 172 HP / 136 SpA / 24 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Snarl
- Bulldoze/Substitute/Thunderbolt

Now for the legendary golems!
250px-377RegirockIcon.png

250px-377Regirock.png

Regirock @ Rockium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 12 Def / 100 SpD / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Iron Defense
250px-378RegiceIcon.png

250px-378Regice.png

Regice @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 144 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
250px-379RegisteelIcon.png

250px-379Registeel.png

Registeel @ Normalium Z
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Confide
- Rest
- Seismic Toss
- Iron Defense

Registeel @ Steelium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Seismic Toss
- Amnesia

Now for the legendary lake... duo?
250px-480UxieIcon.png

250px-480Uxie.png

Uxie @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SpD / 212 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Reflect
- Rest

Uxie @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Magic Coat
- Rest
- Foul Play
250px-482AzelfIcon.png

250px-482Azelf.png

for pz/golem (Azelf) @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Magic Coat
- Psychic
- Flamethrower

for magearna/nezone (Azelf) @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psychic
- Flamethrower

Azelf @ Firium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Skill Swap

Next, the legendary Guardians
250px-638CobalionIcon.png

250px-638Cobalion.png

Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 232 HP / 236 SpA / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
250px-640VirizionIcon.png

250px-640Virizion.png

Virizion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Def / 96 SpA / 48 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Reflect

Virizion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 176 Atk / 100 SpD / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
250px-647KeldeoIcon.png

250px-647Keldeo.png

Keldeo @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 228 Def / 48 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Surf
- Icy Wind
- Calm Mind

Keldeo @ Waterium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 184 HP / 72 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Reflect
- Calm Mind
- Icy Wind

Now, the weather trio, and their corresponding Therian forms
250px-642ThundurusIcon.png

250px-642Thundurus.png

Thundurus @ Electrium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 52 HP / 188 SpA / 60 SpD / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Charge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
250px-642ThundurusTherianIcon.png

250px-642ThundurusTherian.png

Thundurus-Therian @ Electrium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 28 HP / 160 SpA / 72 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Charge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Electroweb
250px-641TornadusIcon.png

250px-641Tornadus.png

Tornadus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 72 HP / 160 Def / 180 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Grass Knot
- Substitute
- Tailwind/Heat Wave/Protect
250px-643LandorusTherianIcon.png

250px-643LandorusTherian.png

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 12 SpD / 164 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 48 Atk / 252 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb

Now for the Tapu!
250px-785TapuKokoIcon.png

250px-785TapuKoko.png

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 136 HP / 96 Atk / 84 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Wild Charge
- Charge

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 68 HP / 144 SpA / 200 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Thunder
- Charge

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpA / 140 SpD / 72 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Electroweb
- Substitute

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 224 Def / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Electroweb
- Substitute
250px-786Tapu_LeleIcon.png

250px-786Tapu_Lele.png

Tapu Lele @ Psychium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Wonder Room
- Moonblast

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
250px-787Tapu_BuluIcon.png

250px-787Tapu_Bulu.png

Tapu Bulu @ Grassium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 152 HP / 120 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Wood Hammer
- Taunt
- Bulk Up

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 152 HP / 120 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Fling
- Megahorn

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Atk / 116 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Fling
- Megahorn

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 152 HP / 220 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 84 HP / 180 Atk / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Rock Slide
- Fling
- Taunt
250px-788Tapu_FiniIcon.png

250px-788Tapu_Fini.png

Tapu Fini @ Fairium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpA / 172 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Moonblast

Tapu Fini @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nature's Madness
- Brine
- Whirlpool
- Moonblast

Now a whole lot of Ultra Beasts!
250px-793NihilegoIcon.png

250px-793Nihilego.png

Nihilego @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice/Fire]

Nihilego @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA / 124 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Acid Spray
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Nihilego @ Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA / 124 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sandstorm
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
250px-794BuzzwoleIcon.png

250px-794Buzzwole.png

Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Superpower
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Taunt

Buzzwole @ Buginium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 144 HP / 184 Atk / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Taunt
- Roost

Buzzwole @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Earthquake
- Drain Punch
- Power-Up Punch/Rock Tomb
- Ice Punch
250px-795PheromosaIcon.png

250px-795Pheromosa.png

Pheromosa @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 112 Def / 168 SpA / 228 Spe
Naive Nature
- Electroweb
- Focus Blast
- Lunge
- Bug Buzz
250px-797CelesteelaIcon.png

250px-797Celesteela.png

Celesteela @ Steelium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Def / 140 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 48 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Heavy Slam/Iron Defense

Celesteela @ Firium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Flamethrower

Celesteela @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 220 HP / 36 Def / 196 SpA / 56 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Giga Drain
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower

Celesteela @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 98
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SpA / 64 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Grass Knot
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast

Celesteela @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 168 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ice]
250px-798KartanaIcon.png

250px-798Kartana.png

Kartana @ Steelium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 20 Def / 4 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Substitute

Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Atk / 4 SpD / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense
- Substitute
250px-799GuzzlordIcon.png

250px-799Guzzlord.png

Guzzlord @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 160 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Snarl
- Rock Tomb
- Flamethrower

Guzzlord @ Normalium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stockpile
- Toxic
- Rest
- Dark Pulse

Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 36 Def / 220 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Ice]
250px-804NaganadelIcon.png

250px-804Naganadel.png

Naganadel @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 56 HP / 184 SpA / 68 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
250px-805StakatakaIcon.png

250px-805Stakataka.png

Stakataka @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Atk / 24 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Stakataka @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Atk / 140 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Stakataka @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 48 Def / 96 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Superpower
250px-806BlacephalonIcon.png

250px-806Blacephalon.png

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 148 SpA / 120 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Mind Blown
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

And lastly, all the miscellaneous legendary pokemon that don't exactly fit into a group
250px-151MewIcon.png

250px-151Mew.png

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 192 SpA / 32 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flame Charge
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Overheat

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 156 SpD / 48 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Taunt
- Soft-Boiled

Mieiu (Mew) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 4 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Taunt
- Seismic Toss
250px-251CelebiIcon.png

250px-251Celebi.png

Celebi @ Grassium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 220 Def / 184 SpA / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Calm Mind
- Leaf Storm
- Reflect
250px-381LatiosIcon.png

250px-381Latios.png

Latios @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 52 Def / 240 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Reflect
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

Latios @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 24 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Recover
- Psychic
- Magic Coat
250px-486RegigigasIcon.png

250px-486Regigigas.png

Regigigas @ Normalium Z
Ability: Slow Start
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 220 HP / 36 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Return
- Confide
- Psych Up
- Toxic

Regigigas @ Choice Specs
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 136 Def / 252 SpA / 120 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power
250px-488CresseliaIcon.png

250px-488Cresselia.png

Cresselia @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Magic Coat
- Moonlight
- Psychic

Cresselia @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Psychic
250px-490ManaphyIcon.png

250px-490Manaphy.png

Manaphy @ Icium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 116 SpA / 88 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Icy Wind
- Charm
- Blizzard

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 140 SpA / 108 SpD / 12 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Charm
- Surf
250px-492Shaymin-LandIcon.png

250px-492Shaymin-Land.png

Shaymin @ Grassium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 212 Atk / 72 SpA / 224 Spe
Naive Nature
- Swords Dance
- Seed Bomb
- Seed Flare
- Grass Whistle
250px-646KyuremBlackIcon.png

250px-646KyuremBlack.png

Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Earth Power
- Light Screen
- Roost

Kyurem-Black @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 148 Spe
Lax Nature
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Laser Focus
250px-494VictiniIcon.png

250px-494Victini.png

Victini @ Firium Z
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 232 SpA / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glaciate
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick Room

Victini @ Firium Z
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Atk / 52 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flame Charge
- V-create
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick Room
250px-648MeloettaIcon2.png
250px-648MeloettaIcon.png

250px-648Meloetta.png

Meloetta @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 88 SpA / 160 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Trick Room
- Hyper Beam
- Psychic

Meloetta @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Def / 120 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Heal Bell
- Hyper Beam

250px-648MeloettaP.png

Meloetta @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 244 HP / 144 Def / 64 SpA / 8 SpD / 48 Spe
Timid Nature
- Relic Song
- Focus Blast
- Giga Impact
- Protect
250px-649GenesectIcon.png

250px-718Zygarde10Icon.png

250px-718Zygarde10.png

Zygarde-10% @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 160 HP / 116 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Coil
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows

Zygarde-10% @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 64 HP / 212 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows

Zygarde-10% @ Groundium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Land's Wrath
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
250px-718ZygardeCIcon.png

250px-718ZygardeC.png

Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 240 HP / 56 Atk / 128 Def / 84 SpD
Impish Nature
- Coil
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest

Zygarde @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 188 HP / 56 Atk / 152 Def / 112 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Bulldoze
- Coil
- Substitute

Zygarde @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 236 Atk / 48 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
250px-719DiancieIcon.png

250px-719Diancie.png

Diancie @ Fairium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Trick Room
- Moonblast
- Substitute
250px-719DiancieMegaIcon.png

250px-719DiancieMega.png

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Magnet Rise
250px-720HoopaIcon.png

250px-720Hoopa.png

Hoopa @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Psychic
250px-720HoopaUIcon.png

250px-720HoopaU.png

Hoopa-Unbound @ Psychium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 8 SpA / 100 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
250px-721VolcanionIcon.png

250px-721Volcanion.png

Volcanion @ Firium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 48 SpA / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Overheat
- Steam Eruption
- Will-O-Wisp
250px-772Type_NullIcon.png

250px-772Type_Null.png

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Rest
- Metal Sound
- Round

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Confide
- Rest
- Metal Sound
- Tri Attack
250px-773SilvallyIcon.png

250px-773Silvally.png

Silvally @ Assault Vest
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 28 HP / 228 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Snarl
- Thunderbolt
- Hyper Beam
- Flamethrower
250px-800NecrozmaIcon.png

250px-800Necrozma.png

Necrozma @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 228 HP / 240 SpA / 36 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Prismatic Laser
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
- Signal Beam
250px-801MagearnaIcon.png

250px-801Magearna.png

Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 24 SpD / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Magearna @ Steelium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 160 HP / 136 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise

Magearna @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Def / 212 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt

And here's all the rejected legendary mons that didn't make it into the list for one reason or another
RIP latias.png
Latias - Just downright inferior to Latios. The extra Special Defense and few extra moves don't help it do more than Latios already can.
RIP megatias.png
Latias-Mega - Definitely not useless, but I couldn't really do anything with it that hasn't already been done by others, main tools being Charm and Reflect Type.
RIP megatios.png
Latios-Mega - Just naturally inferior to regular Latios in almost all formats.
RIP jirachi.png
Jirachi - I tried my hardest to do something with it, but Mew does pretty much everything non-Scarf Jirachi can do, with the benefit of immediate recovery and a buttload more moves.
RIP deos.png
Deoxys-Speed - Same case as Latias-Mega where it can definitely be viable, but doesn't have much else to offer beyond Psychium-Z shenanigans and PP stalling.
RIP mesprit.png
Mesprit - Just plain useless. You can play around with Z-Charm and Ice Beam, but there are definitely better mons that can do the same thing and more.
RIP tran.png
Heatran - Far from useless, but not really outstanding without Air Balloon or the handful of moves we've seen it run before. You are free to try out Metal Sound/Z-move or Chople Berry shenanigans for yourself, but I can't guarantee you'll beat much more than Air Balloon already can.
RIP phione.png
Phione - Literally inferior to Manaphy, and I mean literally.
RIP terra.png
Terrakion - Main niche is using Rockium-Z to counter the Charizards and Kyurem, pretty much useless by comparison, otherwise.
RIP tornt.png
Tornadus-Therian - The extra Speed is not doing you any favors, just use reg.
RIP lando.png
Landorus - Only niche is using Life Orb to beat the Charizards, but even those are starting to run Flame Charge now, so the Gen 6 Substitute strategy isn't really a guaranteed win anymore. Calm Mind/Z-move sets are better handled by Landorus-Therian.
RIP kyurem.png
Kyurem - Probably wouldn't be a reject if Kyurem-Black were banned, but unfortunately, it isn't.
RIP xurk.png
Xurkitree - I tried my hardest with this one, but it's pretty much inferior to Tapu Koko other than the slim hope of getting Hypnosis to work in your favor, or Z-Magic Coat, if you're into that.

Now will all that said and done, I'd like to ask all of you something:
Is the 1v1 Metagame too diverse with Z-Moves, or is this level of diversity a good thing?

There isn't a right or wrong answer to this question. I feel that this is something we need to talk about, so that way we can reach some sort of conclusion on the current ongoing discussion with Z-Moves and have as many people be satisfied with the state of the metagame as possible.
 
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