Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[blondesasukeuchiha]

"there is NO reliable counterplay to every sleep user
in other words
you cant prepare for sleep"

I agree with this, every sleep user doesn’t need to lose to one blanket check. However this is not the point of this argument as it is not suggesting that there should be a blanket check but instead countering previous pro ban statements that sleep is countered by Lum Berry or that it is countered by insomnia and vital spirit. Both sides should probably drop this since it’s not going to go anywhere.

Didn’t realize moto had responded to the post until I started my own but he didn’t really mention the beginning so I’ll leave the rest alone as he’s dissected it enough

 

[Kaif]

Since this is a place for discussion, lets discuss about the infamous heataria core? no?
fine

 

[pazza]

Since this is a place for discussion, lets discuss about the infamous heataria core? no?
fine

you know you could bring up the sets and what the sets beat and how there good together

 

[Blazikin]

Since this is a place for discussion, lets discuss about the infamous heataria core? no?
fine

Why do you call my Core infamous, its glorious ^w^. and what kind of conversation do you intend to spark ? if you want a full teambuilding etc. then maybe just talk to the people using the core etc.

 

[Tol]

Why do you call my Core infamous, its glorious ^w^. and what kind of conversation do you intend to spark ? if you want a full teambuilding etc. then maybe just talk to the people using the core etc.

your core? heckSCUSE me?
here's my version, known as alttran
Electrical Storm (Altaria-Mega) (F) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 HP / 112 SpA / 140 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Cotton Guard

Back It Up (Heatran) (M) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
first person to say >cotton guard without roost wins -3 brownie points

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

>cotton guard without roost
So bad

 

[Kaif]

you know you could bring up the sets and what the sets beat and how there good together

if I was smart enough to make a team for it

 

[motogp]

Lets move a bit away from sleep discussion for now and face one of the biggest problems of the current metagame.

Deoxys-Speed
​

I tried to time this post with the 1 year anniversary from Deoxys-Defense's ban,but I just couldn't wait any longer.

CLARIFICATIONS:

1.As of now,Deoxys-Speed does not have much usage on the ladder (but that didn't stop Deoxys-Defense from getting banned,did it?)
2.Deoxys-Speed has a variety of EV spreads which it can use to deal with specific threats.


Sets:

Deoxys-Speed @ Any Item
Ability:Pressure
EVs:any EVs
Timid Nature
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Recover
- Taunt

Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability:Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Filler (usually HP Fire)
- Filler

Uncompetitiveness​

The best counterplay for Deoxys-Speed is ofcourse,critical hits.While this implies being uncompetitive on its own,critical hits suffered a nerf around the time USUM came out,which converted the odds from 1/16 to 1/24.
That by itself proved to be a huge buff for Deoxys-Speed.
Its overall viability increased when Jirachi,the main Trick+Choice Scarf user (which is by itself a very reliable answer to Deoxys-Speed,although really fast variants can actually outspeed and Taunt it),got banned from the tier.
Therefore,we can safely say that countering Deoxys-Speed requires luck (if you can OHKO it with a crit obviously),thus underlining its uncompetitiveness even further (despite not being regarded as hax,as mentioned in the previous post)

Counters​

With 100% correct prediction and EV adjustment,pp stall deoxys-speed can defeat reliably (without crits taken into account) the entirety of the viability rankings barring:

Mega Sableye
Taunt Whimsicott
Calm Mind Slowbro-Mega that doesn't mega evolve (loses to Specs)
Serperior (loses to Specs)
Acid Spray Nihilego (loses to Specs)
Timid Choice Scarf or Choice Specs Blacephalon
Choice Specs Pheromosa (loses to Specs)
Timid Choice Scarf Latios
Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound
Mixed Z-Shadow Ball Aegislash with Shadow Sneak
Heracross-Mega (not critting is very unlikely to impossible) (loses to Specs)
Choice Scarf Jolly Archeops (loses to Specs)
Choice Scarf Jolly Durant if it hits
Nasty Plot Salazzle thanks to Oblivious (loses to Specs)


All things considered,Deoxys-Speed (with prediction or not,and without critical hits into account)can beat all but 5 Pokemon on the viability rankings,the highest of which occupies a slot at B+,while having most of its matchups rely on RNG (while yes,technically critting Deoxys-Speed can be considered hax,it's still RNG-reliant.Not as much as sleep,but it should still be considered while taking everything into account.

Deoxys-Speed is definitely unhealthy and to an extent uncompetitive,and should therefore be banned from the 1v1 metagame.

(mobile post so its bad)

 

[Kaif]

Lets move a bit away from sleep discussion for now and face one of the biggest problems of the current metagame.

Deoxys-Speed
​

I tried to time this post with the 1 year anniversary from Deoxys-Defense's ban,but I just couldn't wait any longer.

CLARIFICATIONS:

1.As of now,Deoxys-Speed does not have much usage on the ladder (but that didn't stop Deoxys-Defense from getting banned,did it?)
2.Deoxys-Speed has a variety of EV spreads which it can use to deal with specific threats.


Sets:

Deoxys-Speed @ Any Item
Ability:Pressure
EVs:any EVs
Timid Nature
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Recover
- Taunt

Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability:Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Filler (usually HP Fire)
- Filler

Uncompetitiveness​

The best counterplay for Deoxys-Speed is ofcourse,critical hits.While this implies being uncompetitive on its own,critical hits suffered a nerf around the time USUM came out,which converted the odds from 1/16 to 1/24.
That by itself proved to be a huge buff for Deoxys-Speed.
Its overall viability increased when Jirachi,the main Trick+Choice Scarf user (which is by itself a very reliable answer to Deoxys-Speed,although really fast variants can actually outspeed and Taunt it),got banned from the tier.
Therefore,we can safely say that countering Deoxys-Speed requires luck (if you can OHKO it with a crit obviously),thus underlining its uncompetitiveness even further (despite not being regarded as hax,as mentioned in the previous post)

Counters​

With 100% correct prediction and EV adjustment,pp stall deoxys-speed can defeat reliably (without crits taken into account) the entirety of the viability rankings barring:

Mega Sableye
Taunt Whimsicott
Calm Mind Slowbro-Mega that doesn't mega evolve (loses to Specs)
Serperior (loses to Specs)
Acid Spray Nihilego (loses to Specs)
Timid Choice Scarf or Choice Specs Blacephalon
Choice Specs Pheromosa (loses to Specs)
Timid Choice Scarf Latios
Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound
Mixed Z-Shadow Ball Aegislash with Shadow Sneak
Heracross-Mega (not critting is very unlikely to impossible) (loses to Specs)
Choice Scarf Jolly Archeops (loses to Specs)
Choice Scarf Jolly Durant if it hits
Nasty Plot Salazzle thanks to Oblivious (loses to Specs)


All things considered,Deoxys-Speed (with prediction or not,and without critical hits into account)can beat all but 5 Pokemon on the viability rankings,the highest of which occupies a slot at B+,while having most of its matchups rely on RNG (while yes,technically critting Deoxys-Speed can be considered hax,it's still RNG-reliant.Not as much as sleep,but it should still be considered while taking everything into account.

Deoxys-Speed is definitely unhealthy and to an extent uncompetitive,and should therefore be banned from the 1v1 metagame.

(mobile post so its bad)

While I do think PP Stall is uncompetitive and should not exist, the choice specs is where the pokemon truly shines. 459 speed is your set which speed ties Scarf Porygon-Z which I consider a good speed tier. 95 SpA is nothing to scoff at but it definitely is underwhelming at certain situations. It requires a gyarados check since 252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-Speed Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 206-244 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO is not going to win the game when crunch ohko's. I would like to do extensive research on this pokemon but at the moment I don't have time so this is all I'm saying for now.

I think PP Stall is bannable and should be BANNED but the Choice Specs set is fine in my opinion and again, I do not use this pokemon and do not have the time or energy to use it atm

I realise that this post is full of bullshit and does nothing.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I totally agree with moto, deoxys-speed needs a ban or at least a suspect but there’s a few things I want to mention.

I think PP Stall is bannable and should be BANNED but the Choice Specs set is fine in my opinion and again, I do not use this pokemon and do not have the time or energy to use it atm

We can’t just ban one set as that’s complex banning and if banning just Mimikyu and not totem Mimikyu is complex then that certainly is.
Moto seems to have forgotten another broken rng reliant set as well.
Deoxys-Speed @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Detect
- Substitute
- Recover
- Night Shade / Toxic
Just a really quick disclaimer, I have never won a game against this set so I might be a bit biased
So it turns out deoxys is even more broken than we thought. There is no Pokémon in the game that can reliably beat this set if the deoxys user gets a little bit of luck. At first I thought well snorlax and most other normal types are immune to the nightshade set, they should be good right? But then I remembered that deoxys has pressure so this turns into a pp stall set when up against normal types of Pokémon with recovery. The best counters I can think of to beat this set are mega Sableye and whimmsicott (I know that’s not how you spell that but I can’t be bothered to look it up) both of which still need some luck to win. In the case of whimsicott (we’re trying it a different way) you have to land your taunt turn 1 or you lose 100% as the Deoxys clicks sub and its over. If you do land your taunt you then have to land your leech seed before it kills you with night shade, granted if you do hit then you win 100% of the time. With Mega Sableye its a much higher win chance unless you are stalled out of taunt/recover pp, I should just say sableye because the optimal play is to not mega.
So yeah this thing is pretty uncompetetive and paired with the pp stall set this thing deserves a ban.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

the point you say with complex banning is sorta irrelevant considering we have done it multiple times now.

We have never complex banned

If accuracy moves like Flash was considered ban-worthy, I do not see why banning Detect on Deo-S would be considered that much of a complex ban to not happen at all,

We banned all accuracy lowering moves not just flash. Z-Detect I’m guessing was an oversight but since deoxys is the only viable abuser, as in the case of Koko only deoxys should be banned.

just like banning certain combinations on Mimikyu like chansey.

We have not banned certain combinations on Mimikyu and in fact have been told not to do so. Also I see this misunderstanding with Chansey all the time, the combination of chansey’s moves is not banned because we banned it. It is banned because it is impossible to get those moves on a chansey without hacking in the games. Idk why it’s listed under bans but it’s nit because we complex banned it.

I’m not a mod nor am on the council so I won’t act like it but I will say this. To my understanding of smogon’s banning criteria banning only specific sets of a Pokémon is complex banning and isn’t an option

 

[Kaif]

We have never complex banned

We banned all accuracy lowering moves not just flash. Z-Detect I’m guessing was an oversight but since deoxys is the only viable abuser, as in the case of Koko only deoxys should be banned.

We have not banned certain combinations on Mimikyu and in fact have been told not to do so. Also I see this misunderstanding with Chansey all the time, the combination of chansey’s moves is not banned because we banned it. It is banned because it is impossible to get those moves on a chansey without hacking in the games. Idk why it’s listed under bans but it’s nit because we complex banned it.

I’m not a mod nor am on the council so I won’t act like it but I will say this. To my understanding of smogon’s banning criteria banning only specific sets of a Pokémon is complex banning and isn’t an option

first of all, I considered chansey as a complex ban

second, I never said Flash was the only ban "If accuracy moves like Flash was considered ban-worthy" as in Accuracy moves a whole. No idea why I said accuracy moves and z-detect was the same thing btw, my bad.

and the point about Mimikyu, you took it out of context, it meant that moves getting banned on mimikyu taking chansey as an example would mean Deoxys-Speed Detect ban wouldn't be something new. I'm probably deleting that post since its completely fucking irrelevant.

 

[Tol]

first of all, I considered chansey as a complex ban

second, I never said Flash was the only ban "If accuracy moves like Flash was considered ban-worthy" as in Accuracy moves a whole. No idea why I said accuracy moves and z-detect was the same thing btw, my bad.

and the point about Mimikyu, you took it out of context, it meant that moves getting banned on mimikyu taking chansey as an example would mean Deoxys-Speed Detect ban wouldn't be something new. I'm probably deleting that post since its completely fucking irrelevant.

A deo s detect ban would be completely complex and also totally fucking irrelevant.
What’s to prevent something else using z-detect, z-magnet rise or whatever? Honestly I don’t think we should ban detect-magrise, we could just ban z-evasion like it used to be. If you had detect, you couldn’t have fightinium, no electrium with magnet rise, et cetera. It’s not that deo s breaks this particular strat, because it doesn’t . It’s not like sleep, where a generally reliable strategy is broken by a few users. Z-Evasion is a horrible strategy. You’re blowing an item and a move for a one time effect that doesn’t help you all that much. All it really does is make you look like a dick.
And before anyone gets any bright ideas about comparing deo s to deod, let me remind everybody that the deod suspect was perhaps the most controversial in 1v1 ever, with one of its key moves banned during the suspect test (mud-slap) and, of course, deod being famously unusable during its own suspect, with Marshadow running rampant. It seemed almost like people still had images of mudslap deod in their heads when they banned it.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Is it just me or does Theheheheh really like luck based strategies?

A deo s detect ban would be completely complex and also totally fucking irrelevant.

So lets stop reacting to Kaif's post because just no to the whole thing. I don't think anyone else would advocate a complex ban like that we want a full Deoxys-S ban.

What’s to prevent something else using z-detect, z-magnet rise or whatever? Honestly I don’t think we should ban detect-magrise, we could just ban z-evasion like it used to be.

1. If other pokemon were viable with these z moves then they would have sets with them but they don't.
2. I don't thing we should ban detect or magnet rise either because some electric types are viable with magnet rise but that's not what we are advocating, we want a Deoxys-S ban

If you had detect, you couldn’t have fightinium, no electrium with magnet rise, et cetera.

That is complex as hell something that you seemed totally against at the beginning of the post

It’s not that deo s breaks this particular strat, because it doesn’t .

It really does, base 180 speed allows Deoxys to outspeed almost every Pokemon in the game allowing it to pull off the substitute strategy which it otherwise couldn't if it was out sped by most of the meta like Magnezone. This Pokemon's speed is what brings this strategy from annoying and somewhat haxy to broken and uncompetetive.

It’s not like sleep, where a generally reliable strategy is broken by a few users. Z-Evasion is a horrible strategy. You’re blowing an item and a move for a one time effect that doesn’t help you all that much. All it really does is make you look like a dick.

So lets not bring sleep into this because that's not what this conversation is about. Why use an argument for no ban when half the people on this forum believe that your example is uncompetetive. It makes you look like a dick for using it because it is broken and uncompetetive.

And before anyone gets any bright ideas about comparing deo s to deod, let me remind everybody that the deod suspect was perhaps the most controversial in 1v1 ever, with one of its key moves banned during the suspect test (mud-slap) and, of course, deod being famously unusable during its own suspect, with Marshadow running rampant. It seemed almost like people still had images of mudslap deod in their heads when they banned it.

Deoxys-D was 100% broken even without mud slap and hence why it got banned in a meta filled with marshadows, one of the hardest counters available. Also if you don't want people to compare the two then don't bring it up in the first place. It was only mentioned in moto's post to show that a Pokemon doesn't need a high usage stat to be broken and to be banned.

We are not advocating a Z-Detect ban or a Z-detect+Deoxys-S ban in the slightest. We are advocating for a full Deoxys S ban so don't get your view twisted.

 

[Kowasabii]

I think deoxys speed should not be banned. If anything that crit chance gives mons that would normally lose to it a fighting chance.

Think of it like Mega-Lopunny. Lopunny normally beats charizard-x but, there is a 10% chance that giga impact misses which gives charizard a chance to win still. That is not uncompetitive just basic pokemon. Misses and crits happen. If deoxys had the ability battle armor I would ban it, but it doesn't soooooo keep it.

 

[Dazel]

I think deoxys speed should not be banned. If anything that crit chance gives mons that would normally lose to it a fighting chance.

Then the problem becomes the fact that Deoxys-S normally beats an absurd amount of the meta.

We are not advocating a Z-Detect ban

Independent of a Deoxys-Speed ban, is there any reason to not ban Detect altogether? Outside of its Z Move, it serves no competitive use over Protect, and while Deoxys-S is the best user of Z-Detect, other Pokemon such as Zapdos may still be able to run it. I get that in 6v6 tiers, one stage of Evasion in exchange for a Z Move isn't anything to start a furor over, but wasting a Z Move isn't a problem in 1v1.

Therefore,we can safely say that countering Deoxys-Speed requires luck

There's also speed control + Taunt to consider, which adds Heatran, Tyranitar, Buzzwole, and Tapu Bulu to the list of counters to PP Stall Deo.

The biggest problem with Deo is how many 50/50s it forces. Facing off against it is a 50/50 to begin with, and unlike Charizard and Mimikyu, there's very few paths turn one you can take to beat both offensive and defensive Deo, and if you predict turn one wrong, you lose. While Taunt can be a viable way of dealing with it, without Prankster or other Speed control, it essentially comes down to a prediction game. If I have Gyarados, will Deoxys Taunt me, or Iron Defense? If they Taunt when I Crunch, I win. If they Iron Defense when I Crunch, I lose. If they Iron Defense when I Taunt, I win, if they Taunt when I Taunt, I lose. Add to that the fact that crits tend to round out to 50/50 chances unless the attacker is Choiced, and you're left with it getting most of its big wins through them.

I was going to bring up Deoxys-Speed sooner or later anyway as something that really deserved taking a stronger look at, and I would at this point support banning Deoxys-S from 1v1. Aside from the fact that there's no way to ban PP Stall but leave offensive Deo-S without a complex ban, the only real point of offensive Deo-S is as a lure to force more 50/50s, and would scarcely be viable without the threat of PP stall looming.

 

[pazza]

you guys are stupid for even thinking of banning detect and are stupid of banning deos

[21:51:13] ryyjyywyy: pazzaa
[21:51:17] ryyjyywyy: tell them they are stupid
[21:51:20] ryyjyywyy: for wanting to ban deo s
[21:51:21] ryyjyywyy: imo

also
[21:52:48] ryyjyywyy: people that want to ban stuff for being unpredictable
[21:52:51] ryyjyywyy: are retarded

this is 1v1 everything is unpredictable. Have you not seen a Staravia beat a lopuuny with scarf? Have you not seen Gyarados-Mega not beat a slowbro?

attack me now

edit I had to reply to this

hen the problem becomes the fact that Deoxys-S normally beats an absurd amount of the meta.

it really doesn't

Independent of a Deoxys-Speed ban, is there any reason to not ban Detect altogether? Outside of its Z Move, it serves no competitive use over Protect, and while Deoxys-S is the best user of Z-Detect, other Pokemon such as Zapdos may still be able to run it. I get that in 6v6 tiers, one stage of Evasion in exchange for a Z Move isn't anything to start a furor over, but wasting a Z Move isn't a problem in 1v1.

Why you are just relying on RNG and the mons that don't have pressure can't even do it good. since there will be a crit coming sooner then later.

There's also speed control + Taunt to consider, which adds Heatran, Tyranitar, Buzzwole, and Tapu Bulu to the list of counters to PP Stall

you know what else beat these mons that shouldn't? Staraptor with scarf. When you look at it whats beats more stuff then it shouldn't deos or scarf? Just saying.

The biggest problem with Deo is how many 50/50s it forces. Facing off against it is a 50/50 to begin with, and unlike Charizard and Mimikyu, there's very few paths turn one you can take to beat both offensive and defensive Deo, and if you predict turn one wrong, you lose. While Taunt can be a viable way of dealing with it, without Prankster or other Speed control, it essentially comes down to a prediction game. If I have Gyarados, will Deoxys Taunt me, or Iron Defense? If they Taunt when I Crunch, I win. If they Iron Defense when I Crunch, I lose. If they Iron Defense when I Taunt, I win, if they Taunt when I Taunt, I lose. Add to that the fact that crits tend to round out to 50/50 chances unless the attacker is Choiced, and you're left with it getting most of its big wins through them.

You know what else forces 50/50s. Offensive or Defensive mew,dnite can too and so can running a different z move I can go on if you want

what what about slowbro? it can still beat taunt use with Oblivious

I was going to bring up Deoxys-Speed sooner or later anyway as something that really deserved taking a stronger look at, and I would at this point support banning Deoxys-S from 1v1. Aside from the fact that there's no way to ban PP Stall but leave offensive Deo-S without a complex ban, the only real point of offensive Deo-S is as a lure to force more 50/50s, and would scarcely be viable without the threat of PP stall looming.

what about the other pp stallers that also force 50/50s


anyone that says deos is unpredictable is dumb since most things in 1v1 is unpredictable and most things can also force 50/50s

 

[Bacon Bird]

Deoxys-Speed Isn't Another Koko

Hi everyone, I'm as Somemenhave in the 1v1 room and this is one of the first debates I've meddled in publicly rather than thinking by myself.

Deoxys-Speed

Deoxys-Stall
Deoxys-Speed's PP stall set is one of the most effective stall sets I've seen in the USUM metagame the only things stopping this set is overpowering the Deoxys-Speed, Critting it, or the dreaded 50/50's both players would have to take in a Charizard-Mega or Gyarados-Mega matchup. A lot of pokemon can overpower Deoxys-Stall by using priority moves or a super effective Z-move stab followed by priority. Once you that the Deoxys-Speed is stall then you can easily take care of it in later matches

Deoxys-Specs
Deoxys-Specs sets itself apart from other Choice Specs users because of its wide move pool that can hit almost anything in the metagame with neutral or super effective damage. However, unlike its brother Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Specs mediocre Special attacking stat of 95 and meager defenses leave it vulnerable to Bulky pokemon and even Deoxys-Stall.

Deoxys-Gay
Deoxys-Gay is a malformation of its previous two cousins above is that it utilizes different attributes of each set. Deoxys-Gay can run Taunt with a Z-move Psycho Boost or run Iron Defense only with attacking moves or even be Mace Master's Dual Screens set utilizing Psychium-Z and Screens. These are the unpredictable Deoxys-Speeds but can usually be figured out after three battles.

Deoxys-Z-Detect
This Deoxys only wins if it actually is able to dodge all of the hits you throw at it. Meaning it has to sacrifice one of its key moves, that being Taunt, for something that is less reliable. An easy fix to this is to just implement a 1v1 Evasion Clause that acts as an improved Evasion Clause that bans moves that increase evasion through effect.

The thing is.. Deoxys-Speed is really easy to take care of once you know its set. You can just send out the right counter to the set and win from there. This thing doesn't deserve a ban you could use Whimsiscott to beat Stall Deoxys-Speed and Snorlax to beat the Specs versions.

TapuKoko!=Deoxys-Speed

>
Not
=
In terms of ban-worthiness

Tapu Koko was banned for being able to kill Every Pokemon in the Metagame with counter teaming ease.

Deoxys-Speed would be banned for being able to be unpredictable and force 50/50s. This is something a lot of pokemon can do in this metagame and stems from a bigger issue than Deoxys-Speed itself. If Deoxys-Speed tries to Counter team this would just cheese wins and unbalance your team a lot where you would have to change up the entire team just because you wanted to Counter team against 1-3 people on the 1v1 ladder.

Kyurem-Black was banned because of its sheer power and overcentralizing force in the metagame since the advent of Z-moves.

Marshadow was banned for being black.

50/50s in 1v1s in an intrinsic attribute and it's the main reason people feel excitement when playing this tier. Deoxys-Speed in 1v1s can be easily taken care of if the player fighting the Deoxys-Speed predicts the set and wins against it using the appropriate Pokemon. The only way to fix most 50/50s with Deoxys-Speed is to have a dramatic change in how 1v1 is played (i.e. Z-move ban.)

All in All:
Deoxys-Speed is a cool pokemon having the opportunity to run multiple sets and be cool to build with. This thing definitely does not deserve a ban as it has significant inferior traits to its banned brothers. The possibility of landing a critical hit is 1/24 this gen which is still not in the realm of impossibility. RNG, as Kowasabii said in a post above, is natural in pokemon and shouldn't be looked down upon but celebrated for making Pokemon, not a mathematical equation.

I might edit this post in the future to improve it, and I'm very open to criticism regarding my arguments against a Deoxys-Speed ban.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I’m going to take a deep breath and try not to blow away pazza for the stupidest shit ever.

this is 1v1 everything is unpredictable. Have you not seen a Staravia beat a lopuuny with scarf? Have you not seen Gyarados-Mega not beat a slowbro?

So the problem with this is you’re not explaining what is unpredictable, the exact set or your chance to hit/crit. If you’re talking about the set then yes I’d agree with you that unpredictability is part of Pokémon and good team building promotes this. The problem with the unpredictability of Deoxys-S in this instance however is that one set, PP Stall (I’ll leave Z-Detect for later) is so overwhelmingly good and powerful that it allows the other (Specs) to always be unpredictable. The splashability of PP Stall because of its ability to beat so many Pokémon makes Specs irrelevant to the point that it is unpredictable unlike some other Pokémon such as Charizard X and Y which at team preview can be somewhat deciphered from the shape of the team and what it loses to with each. The same can go for a lure team, if your opponent is at least decent and their team loses to mimikyu you can probably bet their greninja has hp steel (unless they’re bad like me and enjoy losing to meta threats). These inferences cannot usually be made with Deoxys-S making them guesses and promoting an uncompetetive metagame.

Now let’s get into the easiest part of this rebuttal, if you were saying your chance to miss/crit is unpredictable and you still think that’s a healthy for the meta. It is insane to me how people believe that using a strategy that uses no skill such as Z-Detect shows that the player has some kind of skill or is competitive at all. We’ve already banned evasion and much to the contrary of ryyjyywyy‘s and it seems pazza’s as well, beliefs, no evasion is competitive, no matter how it is used. I honestly don’t know how to go much further than that in my reasoning because it seems so simple and matter of fact that that is true.
Let’s continue

it really doesn't

This isn’t a rebuttal, if you’re going to say it doesn’t then give us proof and tell us what beats it. It’s really not that difficult and it just hurts your argument to have no proof backing it up.
I’m splitting this next quote into two, not to take them out of context, just because there are two entirely different problems with the beginning and the end.

Why you are just relying on RNG and the mons that don't have pressure can't even do it good.

First of all, we understand people are relying on rng and that’s what we want to prevent. A strategy purely relying on luck isn’t healthy for the tier and should be banned accordingly. Second you say the Pokémon without pressure cannot do it *well but in the example Zapdos is listed as a potential abuser, guess what it’s ability is, pressure. And one could argue that this Pokémon would be better without pressure as static can induce even more rng. I don’t think that you understand that Z-Detect Deoxys doesn’t PP Stall most of the time, it uses Night Shade or toxic to kill its opponent before they would ever struggle. The same can go for Pokémon such as Yanmega who’s speed boost ability would allow it to put more evs into bulk causing it to be an even bigger threat, mind you it does have worse defenses and more weakness. The idea that other Pokémon couldn’t also abuse Z-Detect is incorrect, sure you can say that they don’t right now or that they wouldn’t be viable with it but why give them the option to run a purely luck based strategy?

since there will be a crit coming sooner then later.

The idea that rng should be countered by rng is ludicrous and makes no sense. How can it be healthy for a meta to have this luck counters luck based strategy and mindset. The answer is it can’t

u know what else beat these mons that shouldn't? Staraptor with scarf. When you look at it whats beats more stuff then it shouldn't deos or scarf? Just saying

First off this paragraph is just dumb. Comparing Staraptor, a Pokémon not on the viablity rankings to a Pokémon like Deoxys that has the capabilities to beat most of it is just dumb. Saying an item beats more than a Pokémon is also dumb. I’m guessing you’re applying it one of two ways, 1. Saying staraptor with scarf beats more than Deoxys, it does not, or 2. Saying that all Pokémon that can hold scarf beat more than Deoxys, which if this is what you mean, is the first correct thing you have said in your post so far. It is also the dumbest thing in this post because of course they do. I’m guessing you meant the first one.

You know what else forces 50/50s. Offensive or Defensive mew,dnite can too and so can running a different z move I can go on if you want

The problem with 50/50s and Deoxys is that they are not 50/50s. No matter what move you click there is no way to know the exact set of the Deoxys meaning, if you click taunt but they’re specs or they click taunt with PP Stall you lose, I’m not going to go through all the possibilities because there’s too many, just know since the set is usually unpredictable the prediction is not in your favor. Also if they’re Z-Detect you always have a chance to lose.

what what about slowbro? it can still beat taunt use with Oblivious

Slowbro still loses to PP Stall Deoxys and Specs Deoxys as well if it’s not highly spdef invested.

what about the other pp stallers that also force 50/50s


anyone that says deos is unpredictable is dumb since most things in 1v1 is unpredictable and most things can also force 50/50s

I’ve already covered both these things so I won’t any more because I don’t want this post to be too long + I’m on mobile so it’s difficult to type.
Jesus Christ I didn’t realize there was another page to respond to

The thing is.. Deoxys-Speed is really easy to take care of once you know its set. You can just send out the right counter to the set and win from there. This thing doesn't deserve a ban you could use Whimsiscott to beat Stall Deoxys-Speed and Snorlax to beat the Specs versions.

So I’m not going to respond to the first part because it’s just set descriptions and the little things wrong seem too tedious to reply to.
The problem as I’ve said earlier in my post is that you don’t know it’s set. Yes Deoxys is predictable, when you know it’s exact set. Literally every Pokémon is. When discussing the Pokémon you shouldn’t assume that the opposing player knows the set at all as cteaming isn’t a no ban argument.
The reply box is way too big for the next part so I won’t post it. Every Pokémon that gets banned doesn’t need to be the same level of broken. Marshadow was way better than kyurem black and Koko but we still banned them. I don’t remember who said it first but this is how I view bans for a Pokémon in 1v1. If a Pokémon is more overcentralizing or broken than Gyarados-Mega it deserves to be banned and I believe Deoxys Speed fits this criteria.

 

[pazza]

So the problem with this is you’re not explaining what is unpredictable, the exact set or your chance to hit/crit. If you’re talking about the set then yes I’d agree with you that unpredictability is part of Pokémon and good team building promotes this. The problem with the unpredictability of Deoxys-S in this instance however is that one set, PP Stall (I’ll leave Z-Detect for later) is so overwhelmingly good and powerful that it allows the other (Specs) to always be unpredictable. The splashability of PP Stall because of its ability to beat so many Pokémon makes Specs irrelevant to the point that it is unpredictable unlike some other Pokémon such as Charizard X and Y which at team preview can be somewhat deciphered from the shape of the team and what it loses to with each. The same can go for a lure team, if your opponent is at least decent and their team loses to mimikyu you can probably bet their greninja has hp steel (unless they’re bad like me and enjoy losing to meta threats). These inferences cannot usually be made with Deoxys-S making them guesses and promoting an uncompetetive metagame.

not able to be predicted.

you can really predict anything in 1v1

Now let’s get into the easiest part of this rebuttal, if you were saying your chance to miss/crit is unpredictable and you still think that’s a healthy for the meta. It is insane to me how people believe that using a strategy that uses no skill such as Z-Detect shows that the player has some kind of skill or is competitive at all. We’ve already banned evasion and much to the contrary of ryyjyywyy‘s and it seems pazza’s as well, beliefs, no evasion is competitive, no matter how it is used. I honestly don’t know how to go much further than that in my reasoning because it seems so simple and matter of fact that that is true.
Let’s continue

no where did I say that. i said everything in 1v1 could is unpredictable so theres no point of bringing up "well you should ban x because x is very unpredictable." yes we've banned evasion moves which I liked. but z detect isn't a move you can use every turn also what about the others??
Z-Magnet Rise, Smokescreen , Kinesis Camouflage Lucky Chant

This isn’t a rebuttal, if you’re going to say it doesn’t then give us proof and tell us what beats it. It’s really not that difficult and it just hurts your argument to have no proof backing it up.
I’m splitting this next quote into two, not to take them out of context, just because there are two entirely different problems with the beginning and the end.

Deos doesn't beat as much things as you would think and hey if you want to go down the vr and see what it beats be my guest

First of all, we understand people are relying on rng and that’s what we want to prevent. A strategy purely relying on luck isn’t healthy for the tier and should be banned accordingly. Second you say the Pokémon without pressure cannot do it *well but in the example Zapdos is listed as a potential abuser, guess what it’s ability is, pressure. And one could argue that this Pokémon would be better without pressure as static can induce even more rng. I don’t think that you understand that Z-Detect Deoxys doesn’t PP Stall most of the time, it uses Night Shade or toxic to kill its opponent before they would ever struggle. The same can go for Pokémon such as Yanmega who’s speed boost ability would allow it to put more evs into bulk causing it to be an even bigger threat, mind you it does have worse defenses and more weakness. The idea that other Pokémon couldn’t also abuse Z-Detect is incorrect, sure you can say that they don’t right now or that they wouldn’t be viable with it but why give them the option to run a purely luck based strategy?

what about set up, you are relying on not getting critted (if it doesn't have an ability where it can get critted) we gonna ban that too?

The idea that rng should be countered by rng is ludicrous and makes no sense. How can it be healthy for a meta to have this luck counters luck based strategy and mindset. The answer is it can’t

Then why are we JUST banning deos?? there other good abusers like you stated zapdos , yanmega and other shit and what about the other moves that get +1 evasions (magnet rise the one people use in 1v1)

First off this paragraph is just dumb. Comparing Staraptor, a Pokémon not on the viablity rankings to a Pokémon like Deoxys that has the capabilities to beat most of it is just dumb. Saying an item beats more than a Pokémon is also dumb. I’m guessing you’re applying it one of two ways, 1. Saying staraptor with scarf beats more than Deoxys, it does not, or 2. Saying that all Pokémon that can hold scarf beat more than Deoxys, which if this is what you mean, is the first correct thing you have said in your post so far. It is also the dumbest thing in this post because of course they do. I’m guessing you meant the first one.

no I said pokemon with SCARF can beat pokemon that it shouldn't be able to beat.

The problem with 50/50s and Deoxys is that they are not 50/50s. No matter what move you click there is no way to know the exact set of the Deoxys meaning, if you click taunt but they’re specs or they click taunt with PP Stall you lose, I’m not going to go through all the possibilities because there’s too many, just know since the set is usually unpredictable the prediction is not in your favor. Also if they’re Z-Detect you always have a chance to lose.

seems like Mimikyu

Slowbro still loses to PP Stall Deoxys and Specs Deoxys as well if it’s not highly spdef invested.

i wasn't talking about slowbro vs deos, I was talking about how it can beat most mons if it just gets +6 in the stat the opponent is mainly attacking with.

I’ve already covered both these things so I won’t any more because I don’t want this post to be too long + I’m on mobile so it’s difficult to type. Jesus Christ I didn’t realize there was another page to respond to

same[/QUOTE]

 

[The Official Glyx]

The main problem I see with Deoxys-Speed that dazel and bsu briefly touched on is how reliant you are on out-guessing or out-predicting Deoxys-Speed. A prime example of this is Dazel's example of Gyarados (Crunch/Taunt) v Deoxys (Iron Defense/Taunt); neither side reliably beats the other, only being left to guessing or even just /pick.

Just to further illustrate the point, let's look at its matchups against all the best mons in 1v1:
*note: For these matchups, I will be using the PP stall set that acted as the main catalyst for Deoxys-Defense's ban, and is the main push for discussion on Deoxys-Speed, as well.

Hide

W= Win for Deoxys-Speed
L= Lose for Deoxys-Speed
G= Both sides have to guess to win

S Rank

Gyarados-Mega

W/G: Needs Crunch and Taunt to even have a chance, a 50/50 chance, at that.

A+ Rank

Charizard-Mega-X

W/L/G:
W for Deoxys-Speed if Zardx only has attacks/wisp/sub
L for Deoxys-Speed if Zardx has Flame Charge AND an Attack-increasing move
G for both, if Zardx has an Attack-increasing move, but no Flame Charge or other similar move

Charizard-Mega-Y

W: Just Amnesia and hope for no crits, doesn't have to worry about being slower like Deo-D did.

Dragonite

W/G: Deoxys wins vs mono-attacking Dragonite, but has to play guessing games against mixed z-move/setup

Magearna

W: Unless people use max spa Fairium, Amnesia + Taunt + Recover should just win.
G: Including this because max spa is the most used spread, but I can't say I've ever seen max spa fairium, despite that-

Metagross-Mega

W: Needs to get a crit or enough atk boosts to win, which is unlikely.
L: In this case, L also stands for Laser Focus with bulldoze

Mimikyu

W/L/G:
W for Deoxys-Speed by using Taunt vs Curse sets minus Curse w/ Z-Shadow Claw, but who uses that
L for Deoxys-Speed vs any set with Shadow Claw. 12 chances at a 1/8 crit is too much to ignore.
G for both if Mimikyu has Swords Dance.

A Rank

Landorus-Therian

L: Landorus has the convenient combination of commonly carrying speed-reducing attacks AND setup

Snorlax

L: Z-Belly Drum is oof

Tapu Lele

W: Taunt and Amnesia wins. Max Spa lele requires some serious rolls to even have a chance, but that's some highkey unlikely odds.

Zygarde-Complete

W/L: Iron Defense and Taunt wins efficiently vs no Bulldoze Zygod, but Bulldoze turns the tables.

A- Rank

Lopunny-Mega

W: Iron Defense and just Iron Defense, really

Magnezone

W: Statistically, they're gonna miss Metal Sound sooner or later

Porygon-Z

G/L:
50/50's vs Scarf between Taunt vs Trick or Amnesia vs Hyper Beam
Gets obliterated by Z-Hyper Beam + Hyper Beam, sadly. You can bulk for it, but then you end up losing out on a lot of Speed.
Additionally, Nasty Plot just adds even more on the guessing aspect.

Slowbro-Mega

W: Unless I calced wrong, Slowbro has a 39.995889166937% chance of landing 1 crit scald after setting up with Calm Mind. You might classify this as likely enough to warrant a G, instead of a W, but by my standards of luck, I would not. It's basically like relying on a Hypnosis miss to beat Gengar.

Venusaur-Mega

W/G: Taunt first to dodge the Leech, and Amnesia to tank the damage, since Sludge can't kill at +0.
The matchup can be slightly muddied if Venusaur runs max spa AND gets a poison using Sludge Bomb vs Taunt, turn 1, but that's a highly specific scenario that I probably shouldn't even have included-

I hope you noticed something when looking over these matchups. Almost every matchup that Deoxys-Speed didn't hard win or hard lose required the use of particular combinations of elements for the opposing mon to even have a chance, ie Flame Charge + Dragon Dance, Crunch + Taunt, Bulldoze + Laser Focus s/o koko, Rock Tomb + Bulk Up/Swords Dance, Bulldoze + Coil, etc. This isn't like your average "throwing HP Electric on zardy for Gyarados" kind of coverage, Deoxys-Speed mandates the need of these highly particular and often niche sets in order to win against it, which many of them don't even reliably do. This kind of severe restriction on teambuilding is the same reason why Deoxys-Defense was brought up for a potential ban in the first place. You simply cannot brush Deoxys-Speed's PP stall set off as a "beat-it-once-you-know-its-set" mon, like Charizard.

There ARE other mons that can create similar kinds of guess-to-win scenarios after the team preview selection, HP Electric + Grass Knot Greninja vs Gyarados comes to mind, but as far as I know these instances are too few and far apart in comparison to Deoxys-Speed vs the VR to stack up.

 

[lancert]

I find that right now to increase in the ladder it is particularly slow. I am sure I know the answer and I am convinced that I am not alone in thinking about this. There was a time when I earned 200 points in a few hours, now it takes me 2 weeks to get back to the 1700 mark. I was wodering why, and I found an answer. Some say that the counter team has become famous, yes I totally agree but it has also become a legitimate way to play, no the counter team is absolutely not a way to play legitimately.
The counter team is in my opinion a way of playing that aims to make 3-0 your team by a single Pokémon or to change the attacks of your Pokémon to ensure victory. Example : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-766454384. Indeed, I had also played against this player before this replay, and his Swampert run at the rindo berry but not at z-toxic... I have nothing against this player but he makes him the perfect example of the counter team. Nowadays, it has become difficult to maintain its elo at + 1700 for good players because of one part of this type of game which is the counter team in particular. There are also some pokémon which were banned because of their too great power in particular Kyurem-Black and Tapu-Koko, it was thanks to them that the ladder could evolve effectively. Don't forget the haxx too if you were sure to win...
If anyone thinks like me, please react to my post. If others are still in the absurdity of thinking that the counter team is really a way to ensure victory and to trigger anger in others who have not asked for it, you do not know what the real strategy is.

 

[Bacon Bird]

I agree with BSU that Deoxys-Speed is actually really scary in a 1v1 battle as it can force undecided matchups and has a godly speed tier that is unmatched by any pokemon and any scarfer.

However, what if instead of banning Deoxys-Speed entirely that we ban Deoxys-Speed in tournaments and keep it in ladder matches?
-------

Tournament Environment: Mostly 1-3 battle matches where you can't expect a whole lot from both sides (not that you're supposed to)

Ladder Environment: These are calculated in a series of battles and you can expect what each current player on the ladder has with the use of scouting. There are a lot of battles so you have the opportunity to switch up your team based on current ladder trends.

Environment-bans-example

-------

- Banned in both environments for having a power that exceeds Mega Gyarados and has to constantly be prepared for.

- Banned in both environments for packing too many sets and could literally beat any pokemon and fits into almost any team even when using counter team set.

- Banned in both environments for being too broken due to its move pool and high defenses that went above and beyond what the metagame could handle

-------

-------

Deoxys-Speed In both environments

- Banned in a tournament environment because of undecided matchups and niche sets in ordered to beat it and is unorthodox to what's hot in the metagame so far. (but how will you know it's there?)

- Kept in a ladder environment because of its predictability after you scout what set it's running. Can't counter team as well as other pokemon because of its 4-move syndrome (Iron-D, Amnesia, Taunt, Recover) and generally not being as strong of an attacker due to 95 Special Attack and suffering again from 4-move syndrome [(Psycho-Boost, Coverage, Coverage, Coverage/Utility) If you don't have the coverage you lose]

-------

I feel that the ladder environment of play and the tournament environment of play are vastly different from each other. Deoxys-Defense exploited the entire Z-move Physical Metagame, Deoxys-Speed can achieve the same thing as long it keeps a mask of anonymity. However, when it's exposed to the ladder environment and its moveset can be sketched by it clicking only one move it can't use extra merits as Deoxys-Defense could.
-------
I'm open to any criticism or feedback regarding this position of banning a pokemon in one area of play but keeping it in another. Deoxys-Speed is a very useful pokemon to break out of the low ladder, however, serves as an average pokemon in higher ladder play.

-------

 

[Tol]

I agree with BSU that Deoxys-Speed is actually really scary in a 1v1 battle as it can force undecided matchups and has a godly speed tier that is unmatched by any pokemon and any scarfer.

However, what if instead of banning Deoxys-Speed entirely that we ban Deoxys-Speed in tournaments and keep it in ladder matches?
-------

Tournament Environment: Mostly 1-3 battle matches where you can't expect a whole lot from both sides (not that you're supposed to)

Ladder Environment: These are calculated in a series of battles and you can expect what each current player on the ladder has with the use of scouting. There are a lot of battles so you have the opportunity to switch up your team based on current ladder trends.

Environment-bans-example

-------

View attachment 127449- Banned in both environments for having a power that exceeds Mega Gyarados and has to constantly be prepared for.
View attachment 127446- Banned in both environments for packing too many sets and could literally beat any pokemon and fits into almost any team even when using counter team set.
View attachment 127447- Banned in both environments for being too broken due to its move pool and high defenses that went above and beyond what the metagame could handle

-------

-------

Deoxys-Speed In both environments

View attachment 127448- Banned in a tournament environment because of undecided matchups and niche sets in ordered to beat it and is unorthodox to what's hot in the metagame so far. (but how will you know it's there?)

View attachment 127448- Kept in a ladder environment because of its predictability after you scout what set it's running. Can't counter team as well as other pokemon because of its 4-move syndrome (Iron-D, Amnesia, Taunt, Recover) and generally not being as strong of an attacker due to 95 Special Attack and suffering again from 4-move syndrome [(Psycho-Boost, Coverage, Coverage, Coverage/Utility) If you don't have the coverage you lose]

-------

I feel that the ladder environment of play and the tournament environment of play are vastly different from each other. Deoxys-Defense exploited the entire Z-move Physical Metagame, Deoxys-Speed can achieve the same thing as long it keeps a mask of anonymity. However, when it's exposed to the ladder environment and its moveset can be sketched by it clicking only one move it can't use extra merits as Deoxys-Defense could.
-------
I'm open to any criticism or feedback regarding this position of banning a pokemon in one area of play but keeping it in another. Deoxys-Speed is a very useful pokemon to break out of the low ladder, however, serves as an average pokemon in higher ladder play.

-------

I don’t think that’s how bans work

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

So here’s the problem with banning Deoxys-S from tournaments.
1. Deoxys, to my knowledge, gets even less play in tournaments than on ladder. I think this is because higher skill players would rather play with skillful, non luck based strategies and rely on their own prediction skills instead.
2. That’s complex as hell and definitely wouldn’t be allowed.
Also what Theheheheh said

I don’t think that’s how bans work

Edit: Forgot about this, in a tournament game, not knowing your opponent’s team or sets is bad preparation if it’s a team they’ve used in the past. Replays are a thing and even if they haven’t used this specific team before people are much more likely to gravitate towards using sets they’ve used before, especially in a stressful environment such as a tour. If you’re having problems with a Deoxys in a tournament it’s probably your fault not the Deoxys