dom Oh noes it is not like slapping a choice item is the same thing, Clicking a single button and winning. If you want to win/lose without your opponet just clicking 1 button then 1v1 is not the right place, Just go to OU or any other tier lmao. I bet your counter argument will be rambling about the smogon policy. Late reply tbh but who cares?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
- Status
Can you, uh, get a less obnoxious format than responding in the post? It's just really dumb since its sole purpose is to make your argument harder to respond to.
Anyway, Z-Move bans are basically impossible, so the entire topic is pretty much worthless here. I suggest you give https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/ a read, since 1v1 is trying to not break from this.
Last edited:
And of course you had to link the smogon policy just to reply to something. And if you are replying to me then why are you assuming i did not read it?
Last edited:
I think I've figured out the biggest problem with 1v1.
It's not Deoxys-Speed. It's not Mimikyu. It's not even Sleep or Z-Moves.
The biggest problem is that all we do is talk, but nothing ever gets done. We have debated sleep for over half a year, including that big discussion back in June. What came of it? Jack shit, nothing's happened to Sleep or Snorlax or Relic Song or whatever. There were debates on Mimikyu and Deoxys that came and went, and considering what little actually came out of those discussions, they might as well have not happened. I'm not saying debate is bad, not at all. Other tiers have plenty of deliberation over whether certain elements are healthy or not. The difference is those tiers actually do something about it. If they see an element is becoming controversial and potentially unhealthy, one can usually expect a suspect within 3 weeks at max. Whether it gets banned or not is a different story, but the point is that they see there's an issue developing and they decide to test the element. Same goes for unbans.
1v1 is the opposite case. I'm not trying to toss shade at anyone, but really, the council has not helped matters. We got a huge backlog of things that sizable portions of the community have complained about, and said complaints have basically been met with silence from the higher-ups. I actually have a little bit of a theory: I honestly think that ever since we had that big shitshow over Kyurem-Black and Jirachi, the council has been too afraid to do anything about controversies unless it's like Tapu Koko where it's a near-unanimous proclamation for a ban from everyone, for fear of inciting another huge fight like what happened with Kyub and Jirachi. If I'm wrong and there are other reasons, I welcome any council member to provide a proper explanation for this seeming indifference. If it really is the reason, or at least part of it, that mentality needs to be killed ASAP. I haven't been playing 1v1 a whole lot recently, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell this constant influx of ban discussions that lead to dead ends is building more and more resentment amongst the community, and that this issue will only get worse unless something is done. The way I see it, we have a few options:
-Have a council vote for Deoxys-Speed, Mimikyu, Sleep, Z-Moves and whatever else has led to issues.
-Bring back suspect tests and use them to address those issues.
-Do "trial runs" of sorts for metagames where these elements are banned and see which one is healthier.
-Do nothing and just let the community fester and these problems lie unsolved.
It's not Deoxys-Speed. It's not Mimikyu. It's not even Sleep or Z-Moves.
The biggest problem is that all we do is talk, but nothing ever gets done. We have debated sleep for over half a year, including that big discussion back in June. What came of it? Jack shit, nothing's happened to Sleep or Snorlax or Relic Song or whatever. There were debates on Mimikyu and Deoxys that came and went, and considering what little actually came out of those discussions, they might as well have not happened. I'm not saying debate is bad, not at all. Other tiers have plenty of deliberation over whether certain elements are healthy or not. The difference is those tiers actually do something about it. If they see an element is becoming controversial and potentially unhealthy, one can usually expect a suspect within 3 weeks at max. Whether it gets banned or not is a different story, but the point is that they see there's an issue developing and they decide to test the element. Same goes for unbans.
1v1 is the opposite case. I'm not trying to toss shade at anyone, but really, the council has not helped matters. We got a huge backlog of things that sizable portions of the community have complained about, and said complaints have basically been met with silence from the higher-ups. I actually have a little bit of a theory: I honestly think that ever since we had that big shitshow over Kyurem-Black and Jirachi, the council has been too afraid to do anything about controversies unless it's like Tapu Koko where it's a near-unanimous proclamation for a ban from everyone, for fear of inciting another huge fight like what happened with Kyub and Jirachi. If I'm wrong and there are other reasons, I welcome any council member to provide a proper explanation for this seeming indifference. If it really is the reason, or at least part of it, that mentality needs to be killed ASAP. I haven't been playing 1v1 a whole lot recently, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell this constant influx of ban discussions that lead to dead ends is building more and more resentment amongst the community, and that this issue will only get worse unless something is done. The way I see it, we have a few options:
-Have a council vote for Deoxys-Speed, Mimikyu, Sleep, Z-Moves and whatever else has led to issues.
-Bring back suspect tests and use them to address those issues.
-Do "trial runs" of sorts for metagames where these elements are banned and see which one is healthier.
-Do nothing and just let the community fester and these problems lie unsolved.
Last edited:
I was respondign to motogp . The issue was, because of his obnoxious posting strategy, his post has no text and is thus impossible to quote.
thats only for ou, not 1v1 for one. but a lot of what they have doesnt apply to 1v1. "probability management" for one, since there is almost no managing that in 1v1, it just decides a win or loss. also, "better players making the right plays" isnt really relevant in 1v1, since for the most part you are guessing most games from team preview (educated guesses (predicting), and mind games make it less guessy, but its still a guessing game). also, "
I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
A.) The ONLY exception to this is Sleep Clause.
B.) Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering solution proposals.
" i loled
>sleep clause, evasion clause, baton pass ban (when they said "make Baton Pass fail in battle" then basically made it fail by u ant use it), swagger clause, moody clause, endless battle clause
there are lots of examples of taking out whats in the game to make the tier less broke,( im not sayingthose are bad bans, btw)
no where does it say we cant ban z moves in the framework either. so QT its not impossible especially when "broken" is one of the three things they use to make bans
LOL SUSPECT TESTS.
also if there isnt a ban that could be a sign that its not banworthy rather than nothing getting done? but fr look earlier in the thread where they said we are too dumb for sus tests thats why we dont have them, not the communities fault.
[/QUOTE] >vote for deo s
at this point people are just complaining about things that are annoying to beat because the tier is so unbalanced and "diverse" that you simply cant prepare well for anything anymore tbh
I'd like to append to dom's post a little bit.
The issue is that Z does not increase variety, but instead decreases it. Anyone who's played 1v1 in a Z-less setting, aka at least everyone who played 1v1 before gen7, would know that gen7 requires the use of pokes that are the more extreme variants of their respective archetypes, because of Z. You need to be using more bulky pokes if you hope not to instalose, or otherwise turn to some extreme variant of offence that makes sure you don't need to take a hit. This limits the available strategies in at least 2 ways. One being the reduced available pokes for whatever you're trying to pull off. The second being that some strategies completely fall off due to them being only available on pokes that don't have the bulk for Z.
In conclusion, if variety is truly sought after, then Z should be banned.
If say Spore was available on every poke, and nothing was immune to it, of course you'd "lose set diversity" if it was banned, but that's irrelevant for the health of the meta. And of course most pokes would "have at least one viable Spore set", but that wouldn't stop a Spore ban in that scenario in the least. And I can tell you from experience that if anything makes 1v1 one dimensional it's Z, and not the other way around, considering the lost strategy diversity in a Z meta, and considering how a too significant part of games in a Z meta are basically "who has the type/bulk advantage to not get OHKO'd here?".
Variety is actually something Smogon does care about in a desirable metagame. Quoting Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.
The issue is that Z does not increase variety, but instead decreases it. Anyone who's played 1v1 in a Z-less setting, aka at least everyone who played 1v1 before gen7, would know that gen7 requires the use of pokes that are the more extreme variants of their respective archetypes, because of Z. You need to be using more bulky pokes if you hope not to instalose, or otherwise turn to some extreme variant of offence that makes sure you don't need to take a hit. This limits the available strategies in at least 2 ways. One being the reduced available pokes for whatever you're trying to pull off. The second being that some strategies completely fall off due to them being only available on pokes that don't have the bulk for Z.
In conclusion, if variety is truly sought after, then Z should be banned.
Of course banning something that everything uses causes decreased number of sets, how is that even relevant in a discussion that is about showing how said something is undesirable in the metagame?
If say Spore was available on every poke, and nothing was immune to it, of course you'd "lose set diversity" if it was banned, but that's irrelevant for the health of the meta. And of course most pokes would "have at least one viable Spore set", but that wouldn't stop a Spore ban in that scenario in the least. And I can tell you from experience that if anything makes 1v1 one dimensional it's Z, and not the other way around, considering the lost strategy diversity in a Z meta, and considering how a too significant part of games in a Z meta are basically "who has the type/bulk advantage to not get OHKO'd here?".
Oh, My bad
The council decided on not doing anything with Sleep. This doesn't apply to Snorlax or w/e just specifically Sleep isn't going to be touched.
The council is split on Mimikyu. If you want something to happen with it, make a case to convince the other half of the council.
Arguing for Z-Moves to be banned is a waste of time. If you actually made a case for let's say Normalium Z, I would personally support it. But nobody has. You haven't made a case for why a SINGLE crystal should be banned but you want to ban them all. If it isn't already clear in the 61 pages of this thread, Z-Moves are not going to be banned so any discussion about it is a waste of time. Make cases for specific crystals.
I can literally replace Z-Moves with Physical moves in some of the arguments. 1v1 revolves around Physical moves. Every other mon has to use WoW or Def boost to not lose to Physical moves. (That's an exaggeration based off of the exaggeration that every mon has to use Protect.)
The worst post on this entire subforum. Just because Z-moves haven't been banned so far doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered. I actually want to KEEP Z-moves around, and even I acknowledge that there are people who have made very convincing arguments for why they should go. In fact, lemme put it this way: You haven't made any convincing arguments for why Z-moves shouldn't be able to be debated as a potential ban/suspect choice. To discard such a controversial topic by essentially saying "shut up and fuck off we're not banning it" is just silly.
EDIT: Also please do a 1 month trial run of a meta with no z moves it's not that hard ok thanks
Last edited:
"Z-Moves" are a mechanic. You can't ban mechanics. If it was so obviously broken, it wouldn't be hard to make a case for each crystal, which till now nobody has, not even for one crystal. So I don't have anything to argue against.
I said "convincing" arguments. Setting aside the fact that z-moves are items and not a mechanic, this is still stupid. Who cares if it's a mechanic or not? If banning it would make a better metagame, I don't see why not.
Evasion/Accuracy is a mechanic as well, and it's de jure banned in the form of bans on Double Team and Minimize and accuracy dropping moves, even if there are schiesty ways around it like Z-Detect. I personally couldn't disagree with the idea of a Z-Move ban more, but to say that it's not eligible for being banned ever simply because it's a mechanic even though other mechanics are banned doesn't hold water.
So semantics is the hinder? In the end Z-crystals are items, and items are eligible for ban. The arguments that have been made can be applied to any single Z-crystal and still hold. And as already brought up, the differences between each Z-crystal aren't significant enough to change the base for the arguments. Meaning that you could take the arguments made against Z, apply them to a Z-crystal of your choice, and then possibly ban it. But then all other Z-crystals would need to be banned for the same reasons that initial Z-crystal was banned for. Why is it such a bad idea to discuss and analyze how Z-moves as a whole affect the entire meta?
They are eligible to be banned, as individual items. "Z-Moves" is a large pool of moves, unlike evasion boosting moves. And they all have different effects based on how you use them, unlike evasion or accuracy. Discussing them to be banned is pointless because not all of them see use or are a problem in the 1v1 metagame.
Except the most major part about Z-moves that has been debated is when they are used with attacks, and that effect doesn't differ from move to move. It's a base power boost, which also removes any negative effects, conditions, and bypasses accuracy. Edit: And also goes through Protect, etc..
Do all of them have to see use to be even considered to be banned? Many things like baton pass for example are banned due to one uncompetitive/broken factor rather than people using it on Pokemon without u-turn or volt switch to pivot around. This shouldn't be a reason on why they shouldn't be banned.
This is demonstrably false however. Poisinium and Darkinium are by far less powerful than Normalium and Flyinium, Acid Downpour and Black Hole Eclipse simply being far worse moves that are so rarely instant wincons that the argument you could make about Flyinium KOing everything doesn't apply to Poisinium, and the versatility of status moves that Normalium offers makes Darkinium completely one-note in response. Normalium, Groundium, Flyinium, and Psychium, are all far more powerful than Poisinium, Darkinium, Icium, and Steelium, and you can't lump them all together when there's such a wide gap.
Alright, I understand your point, and I agree. Z-Moves shouldn't be taken altogether as an indivisible set simply because they share the same mechanic, and you could also say that Evasion/Accuracy isn't banned, only the most egregious moves that use it are.
They do differ. Normal has a 200 BP move, whereas Ghost for example has a 175 BP move at most, not even with any distribution unlike the Normal move which is practically available on everything.
The main difference is in the gulf between how Baton Pass absolutely breaks 6v6 Pokemon, to such a degree that there's no positive effect of keeping it around that could justify its existence, whereas Z-Moves just... don't. They have a massive impact on the metagame and are its defining central mechanic, but they don't completely break the paradigm of the game in such a way that there's no way to justify keeping them. In fact, they're essentially just turning the paradigm of 1v1 up to 11, taking ORAS's Hyper Beams, Giga Impacts, and Blast Burns and giving them to a greater selection of Pokemon with a wider variety of types, while at the same time giving status moves a buff and a reason to still exist in a metagame that would otherwise simply boil down to either outspeeding and OHKOing, or tanking a hit and OHKOing.
I know the type chart. I get that there's difference between the types, but that difference by itself isn't enough. Poisinium and Darkinium would be "less powerful" because they hit fewer of the most used pokes effectively, but they still do what the arguments against them are bringing up in those matchups. And what they do in the matchups is arguably banworthy. The point is that already at the matchup where someone used Darkinium, what happened is unacceptable.
That is related to each poke's movepool, which is connected to how that poke is balanced (stats, ability, typing). It's also related to STAB and efficient use of move slots. The point is also that the arguments apply already at even the what I'm assuming you mean is low 175 BP.
The overall point here is that there is a lowest common denominator for Z. And most arguments against Z so far apply to it.
- Status