Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Of course you guys had to go wild on the one day I went to do shit in real life with friends so let me just respond to everything that happened today

Starting with dom's post, its dumb. Nothing more to say at the time that others haven't said so I won't, I'll just quote it here so you know what im talking about

hey guys i want zmoves to be banned and im a bit bored so i will dissect mace's beloved zmove post and tell you why it's absolute flaming dogshit that should be completely ignored if not laughed at. i know im very late on this just had the motivation to reply.

dom Oh noes it is not like slapping a choice item is the same thing, Clicking a single button and winning. If you want to win/lose without your opponet just clicking 1 button then 1v1 is not the right place, Just go to OU or any other tier lmao. I bet your counter argument will be rambling about the smogon policy. Late reply tbh but who cares?

Just want to say rq that choice items are not the same as z moves as they promote having good coverage whereas Z Moves can also be used to beat Pokemon they are neutral on. Nothing else really

I'm not going to get into what happened between Creamy, qt, and moto one because I don't care and two because I don't know what was happening

thats only for ou, not 1v1 for one. but a lot of what they have doesnt apply to 1v1. "probability management" for one, since there is almost no managing that in 1v1, it just decides a win or loss. also, "better players making the right plays" isnt really relevant in 1v1, since for the most part you are guessing most games from team preview (educated guesses (predicting), and mind games make it less guessy, but its still a guessing game). also, "
I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
A.) The ONLY exception to this is Sleep Clause.
B.) Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering solution proposals.
" i loled
>sleep clause, evasion clause, baton pass ban (when they said "make Baton Pass fail in battle" then basically made it fail by u ant use it), swagger clause, moody clause, endless battle clause
there are lots of examples of taking out whats in the game to make the tier less broke,( im not sayingthose are bad bans, btw)
no where does it say we cant ban z moves in the framework either. so QT its not impossible especially when "broken" is one of the three things they use to make bans

just saying ryy your argument here would also apply to banning sleep which as I recall you are against so please don't be hypocritical.

The biggest problem is that all we do is talk, but nothing ever gets done.

-Bring back suspect tests and use them to address those issues.

This is to the answer to that problem, suspects need to come back. Just because the results of a few suspects upset the council doesn't mean the council should completely take over. I think that trying something like the council did was fine but obviously it didn't work out so go back to the old system.

Variety is actually something Smogon does care about in a desirable metagame. Quoting Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame.

God Rump you started out so well. Then it turned into you being dumb and saying Z Moves decrease diversity but you started so well and that's why I'm only quoting the first part of your post.

The council is split on Mimikyu. If you want something to happen with it, make a case to convince the other half of the council.

If the council is split then hold a suspect test or do the rotational council thing you did with koko. Its that easy

Arguing for Z-Moves to be banned is a waste of time. If you actually made a case for let's say Normalium Z, I would personally support it. But nobody has. You haven't made a case for why a SINGLE crystal should be banned but you want to ban them all. If it isn't already clear in the 61 pages of this thread, Z-Moves are not going to be banned so any discussion about it is a waste of time. Make cases for specific crystals.

I think making cases for specific crystals is dumb but I do like the idea of having the pro ban people explain specific cases of Z Moves being broken.

The rest of page 61 is basically debating if Z Moves are a mechanic which they are not, they are held items and last time I checked Ocean Mail isn't a mechanic, moving on.
Now that I look at it the rest of the posts are about this absurdly dumb debate.

My opinion on the matter:
Yung Dramps is right, sitting here and debating for weeks or months isn't going to do anything. Hold suspect tests. Its really that easy, people get off the councils' backs and we get to see if the metagame is more desirable without Z moves or Snorlax or Mimikyu or Deoxys Speed. Yelling at each other on a forum isn't going to get anything accomplished, testing things out on the ladder is.
Either that or watch the player base suffer, its rather fun to watch people complain in the room.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Echoing blondesasukeuchiha here, bringing back suspects isn't a bad idea. Having council votes was an interesting experiment in response to a real issue, but it's clear it has had some serious long-term ramifications.

I think we can trust the community with 1v1's future again. Besides, since then there have been some down-to-the-wire suspect votes in other formats. And y'know what? That's ok. I remember after the decision to abolish suspects was made, someone suggested that for extremely close votes (ie Zygarde-C with 59% voting ban), the council could possibly interject. Besides, we wanna be more like Smogon, so why not do suspects like every other Smogon tier? It's better than sitting around, screaming and waiting for the council to do something.

 

[The Immortal]

Echoing blondesasukeuchiha here, bringing back suspects isn't a bad idea. Having council votes was an interesting experiment in response to a real issue, but it's clear it has had some serious long-term ramifications.

I think we can trust the community with 1v1's future again. Besides, since then there have been some down-to-the-wire suspect votes in other formats. And y'know what? That's ok. I remember after the decision to abolish suspects was made, someone suggested that for extremely close votes (ie Zygarde-C with 59% voting ban), the council could possibly interject. Besides, we wanna be more like Smogon, so why not do suspects like every other Smogon tier? It's better than sitting around, screaming and waiting for the council to do something.

The problem is not suspect tests. Suspect tests, public or private, are suspect tests. Neither are being done. I don't know what makes you think public suspects = any different than the current situation. The council hasn't felt strongly about suspecting anything otherwise we would have. The community being all over the place and not listening isn't helping. Instead of arguing for let's say Jumpluff or Normalium Z to be banned, they will continue to argue for sleep and "Z-Moves" when we said those aren't going to be. If you want the council to do something, then there needs to be some cooperation and unity from the community. "Freeing" public suspects literally doesn't do anything.

 

[Yung Dramps]

The problem is not suspect tests. Suspect tests, public or private, are suspect tests. Neither are being done. I don't know what makes you think public suspects = any different than the current situation. The council hasn't felt strongly about suspecting anything otherwise we would have. The community being all over the place and not listening isn't helping. Instead of arguing for let's say Jumpluff or Normalium Z to be banned, they will continue to argue for sleep and "Z-Moves" when we said those aren't going to be. If you want the council to do something, then there needs to be some cooperation and unity from the community. "Freeing" public suspects literally doesn't do anything.

I still have no clue why we can't have suspects for sleep and z-moves. We've already explained clearly why those options make sense, and some people vehemently want them gone, so why block off that option?

Also, freeing public suspect tests would make a difference. For one, we wouldn't have to sit around and wait for a council vote, for any council member can just announce a suspect and the playerbase can take it from there. It also just generally allows more player involvement and choice which is something Smogon has always aimed for.

 

[ryyjyywyy]

just saying ryy your argument here would also apply to banning sleep which as I recall you are against so please don't be hypocritical.

my argument was that the ou ban policy doesnt apply to 1v1, and i showed differences in the meta to prove it. You cant really manage sleep probability in 1v1 like you cant really manage any other probability in 1v1. In 6v6, there is most always ways to play around it, while in 1v1 missing secondary effects sleep crits etc all decide games in most cases. i was not showing a reason to ban anything, just comparing ou bans to 1v1 so what i said wouldnt apply to banning sleep

 

[ryyjyywyy]

The problem is not suspect tests. Suspect tests, public or private, are suspect tests. Neither are being done. I don't know what makes you think public suspects = any different than the current situation. The council hasn't felt strongly about suspecting anything otherwise we would have. The community being all over the place and not listening isn't helping. Instead of arguing for let's say Jumpluff or Normalium Z to be banned, they will continue to argue for sleep and "Z-Moves" when we said those aren't going to be. If you want the council to do something, then there needs to be some cooperation and unity from the community. "Freeing" public suspects literally doesn't do anything.

5 people who barely ladder is different than a community laddering on a ladder (that has stuff banned or unbanned) to test meta changes. Also just because the council doesnt want to suspect things doesnt mean its the right choice. one more thing, a large majority of z moves are used, not just normalium, and saying make different cases for probably at least 20 zmoves including exclusive ones to be banned is an idiotic idea when they all, for the most part do the same thing. Zstatus moves are hardly ever used anyways (except for like PZ which does it do power through different mons than the normal nuke set), so i dont know what the point in bringing those up is.

 

[Dazel]

I know the type chart. I get that there's difference between the types, but that difference by itself isn't enough. Poisinium and Darkinium would be "less powerful" because they hit fewer of the most used pokes effectively, but they still do what the arguments against them are bringing up in those matchups. And what they do in the matchups is arguably banworthy. The point is that already at the matchup where someone used Darkinium, what happened is unacceptable.

Z-Moves don't exist in a vacuum, whether or not they're broken depends entirely on if, well, they're actually breaking something. The same logic that's used toward banning Pokemon should apply to Z-Moves, and Pokemon aren't banned if the idea of them is broken, only if they actually break the metagame in some appreciable manner. The fact of the matter is that it matters intensely how much of the metagame a particular stone is capable of beating, because that's what matters when you're playing the game. Another factor to consider is how many Pokemon can be considered broken because of the Z-Moves they run? Taking a look through the Pokemon that have been banned this gen, we have:
Tapu Koko: Uses Z-Moves, but Electrium alone wasn't what made it broken so much as everything else it had in its kit like ID and Roost
Kyurem-Black: This is the guy that could be said to abuse Z-Moves, and it still could choose to run a Band or Scarf instead.
Jirachi: Doesn't run Z-Moves, and to boot, it was specifically banned not because Serene Grace was determined to be broken, but Jirachi hitting enough things to make it so.
Deoxys-Defense: Doesn't run Z-Moves
So out of the four main Pokemon that have been banned this gen, two didn't use Z-Moves at all, one used them but it wasn't its strongest weapon, and one could use them but still had diverse options.
If we take a look at the other Pokemon that are being considered for bans:
Deoxys-Speed: Doesn't run Z-Moves almost all of the time, the Psychium set isn't as good as ID/Amnesia, and its problems have virtually nothing to do with Z-Moves
Jumpluff: Really we could bring up Sleep in general as the thing that a ban is being clamored for, but outside of Snorlax, virtually no sleep user runs Z-Moves, and Jumpluff is no different, vastly preferring a Wide Lens to improve its accuracy over Grassium to stop Taunt.
Snorlax: The big guy. Yawnlax of course does rely on Normalium Z to devastating effect, able to ignore Taunt, ignore damage and still Belly Drum, or if neither of those are necessary, throw out a +6 Breakneck Blitz. However again it should be mentioned that Normalium is not necessarily the best item Snorlax can be running, as Curselax gives Yawn a run for its money as the best Snorlax set. While many would say that even if Yawnlax is the only Lax set around it would still be broken and deserve a ban, the fact of the matter is that having another set just as potent if not more so is what's pushing it over the line, and that's independent of Z-Moves.
So out of seven Pokemon, we have four that don't even run Z-Moves, two that do but are broken for something else, and a grand total of one who you could pin being broken on its access to Z-Moves. One out of seven doesn't exactly seem like they're a crazy busted wildfire that's eating the metagame alive.

 

[TheShadowClaw]

I’m not going to quote every person on the planet, so I won’t. The gen 7 meta has such developed that mons with strats from gen 6 are still seen as viable, but used in a different way. I can’t see how a Z-move ban would increase the usage of other mons because then the viability would go back to what it was last gen, with additional gen 7 mons. The meta already has developed in such way that top tier mons are bulky enough to tank Z-moves, what would mean that without Z-moves their bulk would give them even more advantage against the former Z-move abusers. Z-moves give the perfect opportunity for lures, as well as increased STAB moves or tactical status move that give more variety to the meta, it’s not the mons that stay predictable, it is us. Yes some can see this as unbalanced and I’m not saying it isn’t. But not every mon is built to beat the other, and it has always been this way. Keep that in mind.

 

[CreamyKitty]

Just want to say rq that choice items are not the same as z moves as they promote having good coverage whereas Z Moves can also be used to beat Pokemon they are neutral on. Nothing else really

I was not saying that Z moves and choice items were the same, I was saying that choice items are also just clicking a single button and winning.

 

[DEG]

I would like to propose some ideas concerning the future of 1v1/bans I think can/should happen and initiate some discussion at least.

First of all, I'm proposing a re-suspect on Kyurem-Black. I don't really understand why this Pokemon got banned, it has a lot of counters and is probably the easiest Pokemon to beat between the A/S ranks. Kyurem-Black only has two good sets; Scarf and Icium-Z; which are ~ beaten by the same Pokemon like most Steel-types and more bulky Pokemon. It has plethora of weaknesses and recent introductions, metagame trends do not really favorize its dominance in the metagame. Kyurem-Black was mainly banned due to people bringing up niche sets such as Groundium-Z and Specs which aren't really viable and are nothing but niche sets. According to the 1v1 suspect policy niche sets SHOULD NOT be counted as to what makes a Pokemon broken since every Pokemon can really run niche sets and win. Also, these sets come with opportunity costs, and can be known from team preview.

Secondly, suspect Mimikyu, we all know what Mimikyu does and we know how unhealthy it is to the metagame. Curse is like pseudo-Perish Song and for some reasons it was banned. Mimikyu also has GOOD, see not niche, sets outside of curse such as BU WoW, SD, +attacking moves. Though, Mimikyu is solely broken with its Curse set, its other sets just adds to it. Curse forces other Pokemon to be either faster or use speed lowering moves to just have a chance to win against it and let's not forget Thunder Wave which cheeses a lot of games against Pokemon it shouldn't beat with Curse. I fail to see a reasoning as to why Mimikyu should not be suspected or banned.

Thirdly, suspect Normalium-Z. So, let me explain why Normalium-Z. As we stated before, the 1v1 suspect test philosophy states that if only ONE Pokemon is broken with one item/move then the Pokemon should be banned meanwhile if the move/item is broken on multiple Pokemon then the move/item should be banned; see: Perish Song. Now, to go deeper into this, Z-moves aren't broken on all Pokemon for reasons stated previously that I don't feel like developing so we're left by treating them as a different entity each. I don't really see any particular Z-move broken on multiple ones except Normalium-Z. This item pushes Snorlax, Porygon-Z, to an extent Meloetta, to the broken zone. Snorlax easily abuse Normalium-Z to be able to put the foe to sleep and OHKO them with a combination of bdrum+dedge/Z. Meanwhile Porygon-Z changes it type with ease to either Ghost or Electric and you can't know which before the game, it is also capable of hitting you w/ z-beam which allows it to defeat a lot of Pokemon. While Meloetta might not be on the same level as them, it still hits hard w/ Laser Focus Z-Beam and now Z-celebrate.


I didn't go into details this time, but will probably do in the middle of discussion, I just wanted to initiate discussion.

 

[Mubs]

First of all, I'm proposing a re-suspect on Kyurem-Black. I don't really understand why this Pokemon got banned, it has a lot of counters and is probably the easiest Pokemon to beat between the A/S ranks. Kyurem-Black only has two good sets; Scarf and Icium-Z; which are ~ beaten by the same Pokemon like most Steel-types and more bulky Pokemon. It has plethora of weaknesses and recent introductions, metagame trends do not really favorize its dominance in the metagame. Kyurem-Black was mainly banned due to people bringing up niche sets such as Groundium-Z and Specs which aren't really viable and are nothing but niche sets. According to the 1v1 suspect policy niche sets SHOULD NOT be counted as to what makes a Pokemon b

I am 100% on board with a Kyurem-B suspect test. I was going to make a statement on a few mons that I thought were not broken

Secondly, suspect Mimikyu, we all know what Mimikyu does and we know how unhealthy it is to the metagame. Curse is like pseudo-Perish Song and for some reasons it was banned. Mimikyu also has GOOD, see not niche, sets outside of curse such as BU WoW, SD, +attacking moves. Though, Mimikyu is solely broken with its Curse set, its other sets just adds to it. Curse forces other Pokemon to be either faster or use speed lowering moves to just have a chance to win against it and let's not forget Thunder Wave which cheeses a lot of games against Pokemon it shouldn't beat with Curse. I fail to see a reasoning as to why Mimikyu should not be suspected or banned.

Ya, as much fun as it is using its sets it is in need of a suspect test. Its Curse set is simply way too good to be in the tier. Though the difference between perish song is that almost any Ground or Electric-type Z user can beat the curse set with the help of some prediction, but that is only a guarantee on non-hybrid damage sets.

I would respond to the Normalium-z proposal, but it's 9:59 PM and I don't wanna take 6 hrs out of my life right now.

Good night guys

 

[The Official Glyx]

I would like to propose some ideas concerning the future of 1v1/bans I think can/should happen and initiate some discussion at least.

First of all, I'm proposing a re-suspect on Kyurem-Black. I don't really understand why this Pokemon got banned, it has a lot of counters and is probably the easiest Pokemon to beat between the A/S ranks. Kyurem-Black only has two good sets; Scarf and Icium-Z; which are ~ beaten by the same Pokemon like most Steel-types and more bulky Pokemon. It has plethora of weaknesses and recent introductions, metagame trends do not really favorize its dominance in the metagame. Kyurem-Black was mainly banned due to people bringing up niche sets such as Groundium-Z and Specs which aren't really viable and are nothing but niche sets. According to the 1v1 suspect policy niche sets SHOULD NOT be counted as to what makes a Pokemon broken since every Pokemon can really run niche sets and win. Also, these sets come with opportunity costs, and can be known from team preview.

NO. We keep mons like Zekrom, Giratina-O, Deo-N, Darkrai etc out of the meta for a reason. These Pokemon all jack up the power curve of the metagame to an extent that forces everything to run even more bulk or even more power than they otherwise would have needed to, JUST for these individual mons, Kyub being no exception either, just because it's tiered differently in 6v6.

If we truly don't follow the rules laid by OU, then treat Kyurem-Black like the cover legendary it literally is and consider unbans for other similar legendary Pokemon that many would consider even inferior to Kyurem, since it would be absolutely ludicrous to have something more broken than multiple other banned Pokemon to be your first priority for unbans.

Secondly, suspect Mimikyu, we all know what Mimikyu does and we know how unhealthy it is to the metagame. Curse is like pseudo-Perish Song and for some reasons it was banned. Mimikyu also has GOOD, see not niche, sets outside of curse such as BU WoW, SD, +attacking moves. Though, Mimikyu is solely broken with its Curse set, its other sets just adds to it. Curse forces other Pokemon to be either faster or use speed lowering moves to just have a chance to win against it and let's not forget Thunder Wave which cheeses a lot of games against Pokemon it shouldn't beat with Curse. I fail to see a reasoning as to why Mimikyu should not be suspected or banned.

This is good, at least. Curse is a discount Perish Song that transforms Mimikyu into a speedtrap that can also hit hard with a Z-move. Would love to be able to take all the Rock Tomb/Bulldoze/Flame Charge/etc off my mons because of almost solely Mimikyu.

Thirdly, suspect Normalium-Z. So, let me explain why Normalium-Z. As we stated before, the 1v1 suspect test philosophy states that if only ONE Pokemon is broken with one item/move then the Pokemon should be banned meanwhile if the move/item is broken on multiple Pokemon then the move/item should be banned; see: Perish Song. Now, to go deeper into this, Z-moves aren't broken on all Pokemon for reasons stated previously that I don't feel like developing so we're left by treating them as a different entity each. I don't really see any particular Z-move broken on multiple ones except Normalium-Z. This item pushes Snorlax, Porygon-Z, to an extent Meloetta, to the broken zone. Snorlax easily abuse Normalium-Z to be able to put the foe to sleep and OHKO them with a combination of bdrum+dedge/Z. Meanwhile Porygon-Z changes it type with ease to either Ghost or Electric and you can't know which before the game, it is also capable of hitting you w/ z-beam which allows it to defeat a lot of Pokemon. While Meloetta might not be on the same level as them, it still hits hard w/ Laser Focus Z-Beam and now Z-celebrate.

Snorlax is broken, sure, but I don't really see Porygon-Z being as overwhelming as it was last generation, with the ability to screw around with Trick that it can no longer do, thanks to the Z-move nation. "Meloetta" and "broken" don't belong anywhere near each other.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

First of all, I'm proposing a re-suspect on Kyurem-Black. I don't really understand why this Pokemon got banned, it has a lot of counters and is probably the easiest Pokemon to beat between the A/S ranks. Kyurem-Black only has two good sets; Scarf and Icium-Z; which are ~ beaten by the same Pokemon like most Steel-types and more bulky Pokemon. It has plethora of weaknesses and recent introductions, metagame trends do not really favorize its dominance in the metagame. Kyurem-Black was mainly banned due to people bringing up niche sets such as Groundium-Z and Specs which aren't really viable and are nothing but niche sets. According to the 1v1 suspect policy niche sets SHOULD NOT be counted as to what makes a Pokemon broken since every Pokemon can really run niche sets and win. Also, these sets come with opportunity costs, and can be known from team preview.

100% agree with everything here, no comments at all.

Secondly, suspect Mimikyu, we all know what Mimikyu does and we know how unhealthy it is to the metagame. Curse is like pseudo-Perish Song and for some reasons it was banned. Mimikyu also has GOOD, see not niche, sets outside of curse such as BU WoW, SD, +attacking moves. Though, Mimikyu is solely broken with its Curse set, its other sets just adds to it. Curse forces other Pokemon to be either faster or use speed lowering moves to just have a chance to win against it and let's not forget Thunder Wave which cheeses a lot of games against Pokemon it shouldn't beat with Curse. I fail to see a reasoning as to why Mimikyu should not be suspected or banned.

My only comment is this suspect should be done first, this thing is a problem and needs to leave.

Thirdly, suspect Normalium-Z. So, let me explain why Normalium-Z. As we stated before, the 1v1 suspect test philosophy states that if only ONE Pokemon is broken with one item/move then the Pokemon should be banned meanwhile if the move/item is broken on multiple Pokemon then the move/item should be banned; see: Perish Song. Now, to go deeper into this, Z-moves aren't broken on all Pokemon for reasons stated previously that I don't feel like developing so we're left by treating them as a different entity each. I don't really see any particular Z-move broken on multiple ones except Normalium-Z. This item pushes Snorlax, Porygon-Z, to an extent Meloetta, to the broken zone. Snorlax easily abuse Normalium-Z to be able to put the foe to sleep and OHKO them with a combination of bdrum+dedge/Z. Meanwhile Porygon-Z changes it type with ease to either Ghost or Electric and you can't know which before the game, it is also capable of hitting you w/ z-beam which allows it to defeat a lot of Pokemon. While Meloetta might not be on the same level as them, it still hits hard w/ Laser Focus Z-Beam and now Z-celebrate.

I think there's a typo in this here paragraph, Normalium Z --> Snorlax. I mean you could make a case for Normalium Z being the problem but its a bad case so... anyways if we are going to do this see if meloetta with celebrate takes over before we do anything with it

Please just ban Mimikyu.

 

[Uselesscrab]

The sleepy council has decided that our next step will be a test of Snorlax through the rotational council process. To clarify, we will be selecting users to participate alongside the fixed council in a vote as to whether this Pokemon should be banned. There will not be applications this time around and instead the council will contact people we want for the vote based on Smogon and PS presence and satisfactory participation in the last vote.

There will be one week for discussion prior to the vote. Temporary council members will be chosen soon.

The main threat this Pokemon presents is a bulky Normalium Z set that uses a combination of Yawn, Belly Drum, and Z-status moves bypassing typical counters such as Taunt and Encore to pose a threat to even common resists. It also has the occasional other option, such as Curse to surprise foes.

in your builder, you need to run either a fighting type, very fat steel type, or really strong ass mon like banded archeops, or maybe a mon like jumpluff or whimsicott to reliably deal with this thing. you CAN run shit like golem, but you have to worry about yawn and shit. additionally, the mind games with yawn, double edge vs something like sub or setup moves are so lame and just make 1v1 more uncompetitive, esp since sub is fairly common

...

the way it forces stupid mindgames with yawn/tect/drum, the way it makes normal resists just hope they get the chance to wake up is just stupid.

Please engage in focused, mature discussion. I don't want to see another case of revisionist history where people claim that a particular verdict only happened due to a lack of civilized, well-reasoned arguments.

 

[Baleblaze]

Please engage in focused, mature discussion. I don't want to see another case of revisionist history where people claim that a particular verdict only happened due to a lack of civilized, well-reasoned arguments.

Literally the next post

Now snorlax is being suspected, end me

Off to an amazing start

But along with being a sleep abuser, it can also be an annoying bulky set up, which also can, and has run, crunch/quake on ladder to get past ghost types forgoing amnesia in the setup set. with amazing natural bulk like that it really won't need speed as it takes hits. Wouldn't mind at all to see it go

 

[Blazikin]

I guess i will be one of the first ones to give a short take on this .
I personally used Lax in both variations, Berry and Yawn lax to a huge intent and think i am decently competent on judging its power

Point 1:
Yes Yawnlax is god awefull to play against if you dont have a counter for it handy. It simply just yawns and then youre at its mercy depending how you and the other person plays the next turn. On the other hand there is a plethora of counterplaying methods that find general application not only relating to Yawnlax. Such as taunt ( and yes sleeplax canplay around taunt but you can aswell, meaning it can come simply down to predicts), substitute(imo it not an awefull move and more usable than most people assume it to be).
So summed up, it is somewhat meta centralizing as it simply forces you into: have a counter ready(e.g. a hard hitting fighting move), a ghost pokemon at hand(and yes we all know eq yawn lax is a thing but it is nieche for this specific case and it is not as threatening as the general double edge variant) or a pokemon that simply outresists it like magearna and metagross unless you get a sleep roll. which is one last point, it can and often does force a battle into an rng fight which can be good as it is luck based for both sides, meaning it is a less reliable mon for laddering as it often needs that 100% 2 sleepturns.

Point 2:
Berry lax. I think the build isnt centralizing, it has simple and easier accessible counters. it doesnt force rng fights. it is pretty much a stall set up lax which has general counters. by my view it is a fine mon

Point 3:
My idea to resolve this currently.
This is by no means my final idea solution or anything. I personally think we should take a look at banning Normalium Z which gives snorlax its power. I know i can hear people screaming till here but listen. This could hit 2 birds with one stone. Normalium Z ban would not only balance out Snorlax power surge but also take the god awefull metacentralizig power PZ currently has with its normalium build, which imo is as terribly annoying if not worse to deal with than the Yawnlax. But this is not a PZ sus so lets leave this for another talk, i just think this is a general good meta vitalizing change which could result in a better play environment.

This is only the short version theres more to come most likely depending how this discussion goes and id love to debate more and see others peoples viewpoints on the matter to maybe even convince me otherwise

 

[ayedan]

Hello guys, I would like to comment on Snorlax, The Beast Itself. I have encountered it many times on ladder to dreadfully have to almost always pick my "snorlax check" since its such a big presence and can bait you to pick your "snorlax check" so another Pokemon on the opposing team can check/counter your "snorlax check." The many sets of Snorlax can cause misplays or just straight out losses depending on the set. (Example: Sub Bulk Up Landorus loses to Curse + Recycle Snorlax but mostly beats YawnBD Snorlax. It's overall amazing bulk coming in at 160/65/110 let's Snorlax live many hits from both, physical (with defensive investment) and special. This lets Snorlax take even some of the strongest hits from Pokemon like Tapu Lele's Psychium Z with little to zero investment.

Hide

110+ SpA Tapu Lele Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax in Psychic Terrain: 390-460 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I find running Substitute and much bulkier Ev'd Pokemon LIKE Tapu Lele or Landorus makes the meta very centralizing and stale to a point where you must have a very hard check/counter to ALL viable Snorlax sets or you will have a lot of trouble laddering in general. This is why if I am somehow picked for rotational council, I will be voting BAN.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Hooray! Something's happening!

Anyways, Snorlax. Ban it or not? Well, personally, I wouldn't be against it leaving. One thing that seperates Snorlax from other Pokemon in this format that rely on Z-moves is how easy it is to cheese counters. With other Z mons, you need to run a certain lure to get past normal checks and counters, said lures usually being less effective than the standard sets due to possibly sacrificing certain match-ups. Snorlax can do this with its standard sets, and does it better than anything else in the metagame due to its all-around awesome stats. When building, you NEED to run a Ghost or a physical Fighting type, since even bulky Steels like Aggron and Metagross can lose if they get cucked by RNG, which isn't super unfeasable considering just how damn strong +6 Double-Edge/Breakneck Blitz is. It's also worth noting that a Snorlax ban could help soften the blow of the controversial issues of Sleep AND Z-moves. Overall, I think a Ban on Snorlax would be beneficial for teambuilding, the meta and the community at large.

 

[pazza]

tl;dr ban snorlax it makes my pokemon go sleep sleep and it can bypass taunt with z-yawn and i dont like that so please ban it and it hits very hard.




damn what are we banning next charizard!? or pidgeot??

 

[Ferno]

Wouldn't banning sleep moves as a whole be more beneficial? The tier has already banned accuracy drop moves like leaf tornado which is.. interesting lol. Snorlax is only seen as broken due to the mind games you have to play trying to avoid being put to sleep, without yawn being a set, Snorlax loses a lot of it's true brokenness. Obviously this discussion is on banning Snorlax or not but I feel like this is a better solution to two major issues in the metagame. Banning sleep makes the tier more competitive and it nerfs Snorlax at the same time. To beat sleep you pretty much have to:

1. Hope you get lucky and they miss.
2. Have a mon that outspeeds their sleep mon, which is probably countered by one or even both of their other mons.
3. Run some sleep talk non-set
4. Uproar which is applicable to very few mons.

But none of this is really applicable to Snorlax, because yawn is 100%. But, instead of banning the mon, just ban the moves. (obviously there are probably more ways but these are the most viable ones I can think of.)

Going off the usage stats, the most used move on Snorlax, is Yawn, followed by Protect, then Belly Drum, then Double-Edge. This set is the most common Snorlax set, and is the one causing the suspect, without it, not many would REALLY consider a ban on Snorlax. And the main cause of that set being broken? Yawn. Sleep moves take away the competitiveness from the tier and put it into the hands of RNG which is clearly taking away a competitive aspect from the game. Expanding on the issue of sleep; I have replays. Not of Snorlax but of a few other problematic sleep mons to help back up the case which has been made.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-795469259
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-795468121
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-796681419 <---- Great example of how it is all just RNG based.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-796386863
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-796385099
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-796381772
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-793972225

Now there are obviously tons more and if you care I will gladly show more, but as you can see, sleep is just a ridiculous issue in the meta. You could say "Oh but fernyah those teams are not equipped to beat sleep no wonder they lost!", and that is exactly the issue. Sleep puts a heavy burden on teambuilding due to the fact that if you do not have something that definitively beats it, you will lose to it the majority of the time. You can say that about anything though, but nothing is to the point of which sleep moves force you to prepare for. I can go more in depth on the issue if need be but this is just an introduction to the issue I guess, obviously I am not a 1v1 player and just played it because it was easy to qualify for 1v1lt. Anyways I'd say take time to explore options such as this before banning Snorlax.

s/o Chaitanya for losing a lot

 

[Scraftionite]

I am honestly not surprised at all that this fat obese thing is getting suspected.

Snorlax is by far one of the most outstanding mons I have used and seen used in competitive play. I was around the time where yawn/tect made it huge and it got even bigger with the addition of cursecycle. Both sets are common on Snorlax and help it in different scenarios with one ignoring walls that set up and one that deals huge burst of damage off of one sleep turn or two. Like Dramps said this thing can take on even the bulkiest of steels and still come out on top forcing players to run ghost or fighting mons(Just pick mimkyu sheesh) and even then with just one slot hurting the majority of the meta still leaves two other slots to deal with checks such as ghost and fighting. Letting snorlax roam free in the meta just makes more people angry and butthurt bc they dont like the sleep turns or just hate the fat thing in general. I believe a ban should be nice to let the meta settle but I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to give a reason to bring it back.

PS: Bring Kyu-B and/or Jirachi or RIOT!!

 

[Yung Dramps]

Can we focus on the snorlax suspect and not on other issues like sleep? We can talk about those later, let's stay on topic for the suspect please.

 

[Ferno]

Sorry the thread is called 1v1 metagame discussion and you're not anyone I have to listen to so sorry but I'm bringing up both issues because if you actually read my post you'd see Snorlax and sleep were both heavily mentioned.

 

[ayedan]

Can we focus on the snorlax suspect and not on other issues like sleep? We can talk about those later, let's stay on topic for the suspect please.

Yes but, Snorlax uses Sleep to win games. Understandably it can use curse + amnesia but, I assume the main reason we are suspecting this is because of the centralization and overall sheer annoyance Snorlax brings the metagame.

 

[Scraftionite]

I think its fine to bring up just the usage of sleep while we are on the topic of Snorlax, since some mons do rely on sleep mainly being Jumpluff, Swampert, Camerupt, and Gengar. Though banning sleep will limit some of these mons I don't see how that doesn't negatively impact the meta and yes it does limit Snorlax to the cursecycle set rather than just banning it as a whole.