Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Taking a moment to talk about some things that have been on my mind.

A few thoughts on teambuilding: it was absolute pain at the start of the generation but I feel like its stabilizing a bit as long as you don't slap on three brokens and hope they synergize together. Pokemon like :ursaring: :bellibolt: :abomasnow: :haxorus: :volcarona: and others have unique traits that allow them to cover mus a chi-yu / annihilape / gholdengo /etc ... can't.
There are a ton of new fun (and sometimes better!) cores to explore once ppl stop spamming chiyu/dirge/arcanine + dozo/azu/bundle.

Secondly, the more I think about it, the more I feel like Chi-yu is not a healthy influence on the meta.
I have compiled a list of counters/generally solid answers to it below though I think that analyzing it only through the lens of a vacuum doesn't do it justice. At preview Chi-yu struggles to ever beat less than 1.5/3 of the opposing team and oftentimes can soft 3-0 or help break down the opposing team structure by narrowing down what sets opposing pokemon are. It exerts ridiculous pressure on the opposing team - nothing resists its stabs + psychic / hyper beam.
Setguessing it is a nightmare because if you pair it with any other minimally versatile pokemon you can hide its set pretty well.
While it does have more hard counters than annihilape each of its sets cover larger portions of the meta. With av it can beat EVERY special attacker bar mixed goodra and hard spdef stall. Specs obliterates non resists and I fear the day ppl start running bulk and it starts beating all the av/scarf mons that try to beat it while not resisting its dual stabs. Scarf doesn't cover as much as other sets but the surprise factor and the ability to pick off faster threats that think they can ohko you adds a level of unpredictability at preview that only favors the chi-yu user. Imo having an effective base special attack stat of 186 and ok speed for a breaker along with far too good special defense and only somewhat lacking physdef is what pushes it over the edge and over and above the rest of the meta. Of the four types supereffective against it, fighting, ground, rock, water, only rock resists its strongest stab and currently we have half a viable rock type. Water types are often forced to max their spdef in order to tank its hits and fightings that beat it generally need some way to boost their speed to try and not drop to its attacks. Overall I fear that its presence is overbearing and should be looked into.

:dondozo: - band wins pretty handily, though curse really wants to run lefties and more physbulk and isn't really allowed to do either.
:azumarill: - IMO av is an incredibly mid set that loses to sableye and dirge but lorb/choice band still do pretty well.
:donphan: forced into lum is not terrible as it can use it to fake beat dirge.
:ting-lu: incredibly overrated IMO as it has 0 useful coverage bar heavy slam (and even with it it struggles vs fairies) + its bad speed tier its a bit of a sitting duck but one thing it does well is ruination -> eq to win reliably.
:garchomp: this mon is struggling imo, maybe someone's made a cool set, but one thing it does is beat chiyu + gholdengo reliably.
:goodra: you need to run eq or else u lose to av chiyu and also need to be careful around WP but acid spray -> move should win.
:tyranitar: kinda bad rn, doesnt beat ghold, can't beat sylv + arcanine in one set. Struggles with item/evs.
:roaring moon: another middle of the pack dark type that does ok as a scarfer but doesn't really stand out as having any exceptional traits.
:gastrodon: run a stab move or else crit bait but reasonably solid.
:gyarados: who uses this?

:iron valiant: valiant can run a physical fighting move to 100% but often doesn't, usually favorable for it, though I've seen occasional fire + beam coverage on chiyu which wins vs moonblast. Non speedbooster sets lose to scarf chiyu though that isn't a huge deal.
:iron hands: its a mess of a mu but wisp chi-yu has real chances to beat most iron hands, at best ihands needs to setguess
:arcanine: depending on bulk and speed its a bit of a mess of a mu, at best arcanine needs to setguess.
:great tusk: you CAN run obese av and win by surprise factor though if u get wisped gg. Speed booster does p well tho against anything but scarf.
:ursaring: guts is goated but you need to setguess specs vs nonspecs as cc on WP loses.
:talonflame: almost very reliably wins with spdef invest but I've gotten finessed by flame charge -> dark pulse from WP Chi-yu.

:iron treads: this mon is so bad and literally doesn't win even with ada scarf against bulky variants. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-1760745971-emftbjuszps9pq97koqklkn2y6bw2f9pw
:flutter mane: u do pretty okay with clear amulet until av runs payback. Normal sets lose to av chiyu.
:sylveon: you either run max max spdef wishtect cm or lose. Bulky specs does ok until u run into av chiyu.
:iron bundle: you lose to av and sometimes scarf.
:meowscarada: band wins vs non-scarf.
:rotom wash: you can run obese specs and lose to av chiyu.
:chien-pao: lose to scarf.
:avalugg: lose to wisp.
:bellibolt: spdef bellibolt loses to nasty plot variants/can get rolled by modest specs.

High chance that i missed a pokemon or two but I hope it serves to give a general idea. Another thing that compounds the chi-yu problem is that a lot of its hard answers share weaknesses to common types/coverage or can be walled by strong physdef pokemon as they are mostly strong attackers.

Code:
Chi-Yu @ Assault Vest 
Ability: Beads of Ruin 
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 240 SpD 
Modest Nature 
- Snarl 
- Payback 
- Overheat 
- Ruination
takes a 1/16 roll vs modest specs bundle but having modest is important IMO. I clicked dark pulse little enough that I swapped it for payback, a Deddd tech to beat flutter mane 100%.

Code:
Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs 
Ability: Beads of Ruin 
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA 
Bold Nature 
- Overheat 
- Dark Pulse 
- Psychic 
- Hyper Beam
This set lives everything and is incredibly threatening to weak pokemon that hope to snipe chi-yu and bank on only WP chiyu being bulky. It has a very favorable roll vs speed booster great tusk which I think is hilarious.

Code:
Chi-Yu @ Choice Scarf 
Ability: Beads of Ruin 
EVs: 84 HP / 248 SpA / 176 Spe 
Timid Nature 
- Overheat 
- Dark Pulse 
- Psychic 
- Hyper Beam
A bit of bulk for specs zone/specs flutter moonblast is nice.
 
Chi yu (best mon in the tier) and gholdengo (despite being only like 3rd best imo) are both unhealthy and annoying (as FUCK) for the meta. Chi yu because of the reasons mentioned above but gholdengo is for another reason. Good as gold makes it pretty much impossible to tech, meaning that you basically have to run 1 of a list of like 8 mons which 50% of the time is gonna be Chi yu or specs flutter mane that can beat it and nothing else, especially with that new (Fuck you frUan) reflect wp set that beats another half of the meta with no way to check it. And because your not gonna beat it with anything else and your opponent knows it, every game with a gholdengo just turns into a 50/50 between gholdengo and another Pokémon vs ghold counter and filler, with little other depth or setguessing which is boring as fuck and unhealthy (ooh buzzword xddd) for the meta. Every single time there is a gholdengo on preview and it is a viable pick I immediately become comatose komala Harris + sleepy forme Joe Biden drowsy because it’s so fucking boring and there’s like literally just a 50/50 between probably a chi yu and a gholdengo i stg it’s like half of all sv games now just come down to that. We need Obama to give us home ASAP so we have more mons than chi yu valiant flutter mane gholdengo hands goodra annhilape is not a top tier dragapult please mr care I’m HUNGERING on h my goodness. Another thing, annhilaple is nowhere near the most atrocious mon in the tier, like every top tier beats it somehow It loses to gholdengo, loses to offensive valiant prolly it’s a fairy type, loses to flutter mane, loses to chi yu most of the time, probably loses to hands unless they they pull a rumia V clicking taunt vs gholdengo with iron hydreigon and fake out t1, loses to curse lefties dondozo, etc etc, it may be the most overrated mon since BEN SIMMONS that’s right you heard me AHHNILAPE IS THE BEN SIMMONS OF 1V1 GOOD NIGHT.
BTW tyranitar can and does beat gholdengo with the right set S/o waylaid. you are wrong fruan.
 
2022 1v1 Awards Results
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Favorite Pokemon of Gen 9 1v1 so far?
:chi-yu: Chi-Yu - 6 :chi-yu:
:iron-valiant: Iron Valiant - 5 :iron-valiant:
:great-tusk: Great Tusk - 5 :great-tusk:


Best teambuilder of 2022?
1. fruan - 7
2. crucify / smely socks - 5
3. bored_glitch - 4

Most influential player of 2022?
1. DEG / Gangsta Spongebob - 9
2. smely socks - 7

Most gimmicky player of 2022?
1. 5luke - 6
2. Justdelemon / Joker 1v1 / motogp / XanderUrBoi / "me" - 3

Luckiest player of 2022?
1. Jamez - 7
2. eblurb / frogfacts - 5
3. zioziotrip - 4

Most intimidating player of 2022?
1. XSTATIC COLD - 14
2. Close / smely socks / zioziotrip - 3

Best new player of 2022?
1. Justdelemon - 9
2. "idk" - 7
3. Nick - 6

Best ladder player of 2022?
1. smely socks - 13
2. XSTATIC COLD - 12
3. Justdelemon - 6

Best tournament player of 2022?
1. smely socks - 10
2. zioziotrip - 7
3. Close / Justdelemon - 5

Best overall player of 2022?
1. Close - 10
2. smely socks - 9
3. Justdelemon - 6

Nicest user of 2022?
1. smely socks - 7
2. DenisTheMenace / Murman - 4

Meanest user of 2022?
1. XSTATIC COLD - 9
2. HeyMan - 8
3. Murman - 6

Funniest user of 2022?
1. XSTATIC COLD / frogfacts / Joker 1v1 - 5
2. "nobody" - 4
3. "me" - 3

User most likely to play Pokemon in their 50s?
1. XSTATIC COLD - 14
2. Rosa - 12
3. DEG - 9

Best user to have in a team discord?
1. bored_glitch / DEG - 4
2. Elo Bandit / smely socks / Murman / STABLE - 3

User most likely to make a multiple page essay on a Pokemon for the Viability Rankings?
1. Murman - 6
2. STABLE / Lumii - 5
3. LRXC / Rosa - 4

User you'd most like to meet in real life?
1. DEG / smely socks / XSTATIC COLD / "nobody" - 3

User most likely to time out in a tournament game?
1. zo - 9
2. pqs / rumia - 4
Honorable mention: "t" - 1

[From Sanshokuinsumireko] Biggest weeb of 2022?
1. Sanshokuinsumireko - 23
2. "idk" - 4
3. Rosa - 3

Most memorable moment of 2022?
1. Trashuny being discovered as an alt of a banned user - 8
2. ADV LT drama - 7
3. 1v1 Premier League - 7

As eventful of a year as 2022 may have been, we still have a lot to look forward to with Scarlet & Violet 1v1, as well as the changes and extra releases that will be coming in 2023! Here's to another year of 1v1!​
 

Since I was awarded this title, I must tell a joke. I recommend XSTATIC COLD and frogfacts do the same :p

so the richest man in the world decides he wants to build a hotel

and he does so

he builds a hotel as large as New York City

it's a pretty good hotel

lots of celebrities show up, it's opening night, party's gettin' started

on opening night, a little purple man checks in to the hotel

that night, the hotel burns to the ground

the rich man is devastated but he won't let this ruin his plans

he decides to raise the stakes, and he builds a hotel as large as the state of Texas

it's great it's got like a pool bunch of great stuff

opening night, the same little purple man checks in

that night, the hotel burns to the ground

rich man, again, is devastated - but again, he decides to go bigger and better

he builds a hotel as large as the Americas

it's a sweet hotel

biggest opening night yet

little purple man checks in

it burns to the ground that very night

rich man is in too deep

he builds a hotel as large as the planet Earth

it's a nice hotel

little purple man checks in opening night

it burns to the ground

rich man builds a hotel as large as the milky way galaxy

it's sweet it's got like 2 pools

little purple man checks in that night

it burns to the ground

rich man is devastated more than ever before

he decides he'll give it one more shot

he builds a hotel as large as the known universe

this one's got not only 2 pools but a sauna as well

it's nice

opening night

little purple man checks in

and that night it burns to the ground

the rich man is broken

he's penniless

emotionally destroyed

wife left him

and he becomes a hermit

20 years pass

the rich man has finally picked up the shattered remains of his life

but he needs closure

one day he sees the little purple man sitting on a park bench

he approaches him and asks him

"little purple man, did you burn down my hotels?"

the little purple man says yes

Ha. Ha. - Rosa
 


Since I was awarded this title, I must tell a joke. I recommend XSTATIC COLD and frogfacts do the same :p

so the richest man in the world decides he wants to build a hotel

and he does so

he builds a hotel as large as New York City

it's a pretty good hotel

lots of celebrities show up, it's opening night, party's gettin' started

on opening night, a little purple man checks in to the hotel

that night, the hotel burns to the ground

the rich man is devastated but he won't let this ruin his plans

he decides to raise the stakes, and he builds a hotel as large as the state of Texas

it's great it's got like a pool bunch of great stuff

opening night, the same little purple man checks in

that night, the hotel burns to the ground

rich man, again, is devastated - but again, he decides to go bigger and better

he builds a hotel as large as the Americas

it's a sweet hotel

biggest opening night yet

little purple man checks in

it burns to the ground that very night

rich man is in too deep

he builds a hotel as large as the planet Earth

it's a nice hotel

little purple man checks in opening night

it burns to the ground

rich man builds a hotel as large as the milky way galaxy

it's sweet it's got like 2 pools

little purple man checks in that night

it burns to the ground

rich man is devastated more than ever before

he decides he'll give it one more shot

he builds a hotel as large as the known universe

this one's got not only 2 pools but a sauna as well

it's nice

opening night

little purple man checks in

and that night it burns to the ground

the rich man is broken

he's penniless

emotionally destroyed

wife left him

and he becomes a hermit

20 years pass

the rich man has finally picked up the shattered remains of his life

but he needs closure

one day he sees the little purple man sitting on a park bench

he approaches him and asks him

"little purple man, did you burn down my hotels?"

the little purple man says yes

Ha. Ha. - Rosa

It’s William Afton no way
 
ok so we gotta talk about gholdengo we are talking about this thing because its metagame defining counter is quickbanned like just
ok so bec it had only one viable counter it also has counters like appe and more like shit was controlled by chiyu and bec chi yu is quickbanned
gholdengo is..shit .....this is what everyone says right this thing has counters but those counters arent looked at shit some bombirdier sets are counters
appe,donphan,bombirdier,specs mane,proto booster spatk mane and if home comes im psure we get Zarude,gmolt btw gmolt cant be viable in sv lol
its best item custap is unobtainable but the problem is counters arent good hey the best counter is mane,appe,donphan and maybe dozo just bruh
ok so now currenet meta best mons :gholdengo: :annhilliappe: :flutter mane: :dondozo: all o these are counters to gholdengo but problem
thing has sets to beat its counters ik dozo is beat with bulk tbolt mane kasib,appe kasib,donphan is the honest counter and i dont want to include bombirdier cause it underused in 1v1 and underlooked of its capability but thats a story for another time gholdengo is banworthy just like STABLE said thing is its like chi yu but has more coverage shit gets dgleeam and tbolt able to beat darks and corvik and btw meowscarada cat is scared with colbur and yes donphan beats every set idwant to say shucca cause its 0% used some ppl use kasib and colbur but no shuca goat kills the metagame and the new stored power user espathra should edit this post and btw i think its ok to include gholdengo on the onthe radar thread were talking about gholdengo just ban it please and yes since i already covered its counters so even if counters came with home this thing is good as gold
this is also a good valliant counter if you speak about it btw chiyu quick ban isnt implemented ye im tired seeing that shit on ladder let ape stay
and LET GHOLDEN(GO) AWAY so yes ban it
 
After the ban of 吃鱼 I think we could see a rise in usage of 蜗神. It's bulky, can outstall things like 停鹿, and can run a very bulky wp set that beats big threats like gholdengo, iron bundle, meowscarada, and even skeledirge(unless they're really fast). Leech seed and a special(for now) type combination give 蜗神 a unique metagame matchup which separates from other more popular stall pokemon.

Edit: happy Chinese New Year
 
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There are two Pokemon I'd say that are on everyone's mind, Greninja and Gholdengo. Both of these are extremely prevalent threats that have insanely good qualities in their own way, Greninja is similar to the banned Cinderace where it can take on any type whilst running a variety of different sets with different moves and Gholdengo can be a fiercely powerful attacker or even a wall of sorts or can even manage both at the same time. Gholdengo is a Pokemon I have seen myself spamming on multiple teams, looking at any of my replays you can probably see it on 9/10 of my squads and for good reason to as building around it practically guarantees an amazing team. Similarly to the suspected Annihilape, Gholdengo is intimidating on preview and can be running a variety of sets to take on many threats. Unlike Annihilape however, it has more practical use in battle and ends up seeming impossible to beat. When looking at Greninja and its movepool it immediately can be seen as metagame defining, it has a powerful Petaya berry + Torrent boosted Hydro Cannon set, high power with move coverage in a Choice Specs set and a few more niche options when running Choice Band and Choice Scarf. Though I wouldn't exactly call the last two good, it can check a lot of Pokemon which usually try to beat it such as Flutter Mane losing to Choice Scarf Gunk Shot. Both of these should definitely be considered for a suspect test and even a quickban for Greninja.
 
I wanna talk about Encore Disable on this meta, this article gonna talk about my opnion on this strategy.

1.Iron Valiant : It has 368 of speed and can easily out speed an ton of mons so we have to brought specified counters to it, cause of if having 368×1,50 of speed (502) wich means an lot of times we have to brought that counter it like, Adamant Scarf-Pao(maybe getting banned), Speed Scarf PRough Meowscarada, Booster Speed Mane, SpeBoost Sub Espathra, Gholdengo and Mental Herb Taunt.
-Random Voice in my head : so still has an counter right?
-No until i say the next problem.

2.Sableye : This one can be countered easily but... (there's always an but) it has 2 sets and and both are good to counter who couter Valiant, counter almost half lets get to the next part, we have the Trick Disable Recover Fling Prankster, a Protect Encore Disable Recover, wich are good counters to the half of pokémon that counters Valiant, and still there's another thing.

3.Specified Counters : Now there's another thing that they' brough pokémon that counter who counter this strategy and counter who use this strategy, meaning that they use the same mons if they see each others only won who won the SpeedTie, making the game meaningless.

Resumed : You always are going to have something that beat this strategy making you to have to waste an slot for counter the "meta", and having -1 Pokémon is gonna be impactfull, and simples way to make these pokémon viable and not stupid stall is banning Disable, Encore is not the true problem Disable it make Choice Itens not viable, also makes your highest damage move not work (also if do not use your highest damagjng move encore will make you stuck into it), Encore can come in hand without begin broken.

So respectfully say that they should ban Disable, thanks for your time!
 
I wanna talk about Encore Disable on this meta, this article gonna talk about my opnion on this strategy.

1.Iron Valiant : It has 368 of speed and can easily out speed an ton of mons so we have to brought specified counters to it, cause of if having 368×1,50 of speed (502) wich means an lot of times we have to brought that counter it like, Adamant Scarf-Pao(maybe getting banned), Speed Scarf PRough Meowscarada, Booster Speed Mane, SpeBoost Sub Espathra, Gholdengo and Mental Herb Taunt.
-Random Voice in my head : so still has an counter right?
-No until i say the next problem.

2.Sableye : This one can be countered easily but... (there's always an but) it has 2 sets and and both are good to counter who couter Valiant, counter almost half lets get to the next part, we have the Trick Disable Recover Fling Prankster, a Protect Encore Disable Recover, wich are good counters to the half of pokémon that counters Valiant, and still there's another thing.

3.Specified Counters : Now there's another thing that they' brough pokémon that counter who counter this strategy and counter who use this strategy, meaning that they use the same mons if they see each others only won who won the SpeedTie, making the game meaningless.

Resumed : You always are going to have something that beat this strategy making you to have to waste an slot for counter the "meta", and having -1 Pokémon is gonna be impactfull, and simples way to make these pokémon viable and not stupid stall is banning Disable, Encore is not the true problem Disable it make Choice Itens not viable, also makes your highest damage move not work (also if do not use your highest damagjng move encore will make you stuck into it), Encore can come in hand without begin broken.

So respectfully say that they should ban Disable, thanks for your time!

Iron Valiant has a lot more counters than you have listed here, it is a very prevalent Pokemon and very powerful in its own right. The way you've worded this entire post makes it seem like your main problem is Iron Valiant, which makes sense as it is a Pokemon that could definitely be suspected. Disable isn't overpowered as a move, but it becomes more powerful due to its abusers such as the ones you've listed here. You also give Iron Valiant a lot more credit than it really has, it is beatable without outspeeding it or using Mental Herb. Due to the fact of Iron Valiant being frail, a lot of Pokemon can have multiple moves to beat it such as: Azumarill, Charizard and Corviknight for example.

Again you aren't completely wrong, a post speaking about how strong Iron Valiant can be isn't farfetched but I'd say banning Disable would be the wrong way to go about this. Iron Valiant and Sableye are the only notable abusers of this move after all and previously Scream Tail, which was a better abuser of the strategy than Iron Valiant, was banned instead of the move.
 
After the :chi-yu: Chi-Yu ban and the subsequent :greninja: Greninja drop 1v1 has seen a bit of a drop in activity and not a lot of players really care for the state of this metagame, due to the fact that Home is supposedly dropping semi-soon and PL signups are in imminent reach, so most people are waiting for either of the two before diving into the tier once more, which brings to the metagame being in somewhat of a dire state and people generally not caring to change it. I'm gonna be brief and to the point: you should. The Home release date has not been announced yet, and PL manager signups are less than two weeks from now, so every supposition that Home will be released before the actual PL start is based merely on speculation, and most likely false. With VGC series 2 being confirmed February 1st to March 31st, we've predicted that its likely for Home to be dropped somewhere between March 1st and April 1st, which brings to the 1v1 Premier Leaguer regular season having to go through various weeks of Pre Home metagame before effectively switching to Post Home, and potentially, if the drop is later than we anticipated (right now the only confirmation we have is that it'll be in spring, which is really broad), the entire tournament being pre home locked. I won't go into details about the specifics of each scenario but either way the chances that at least some of PL will have to be played in the current metagame is quite high.

With this preamble out of the way, discussion has pointed out that there are basically 3 Pokemon that should be outright banned in rapid succession, however the Council decides to go about whether to quickban either of them or to suspect is no matter of mine, but the order of criminality is as follows:

1. :gholdengo: Gholdengo :gholdengo: Quite the demoniac presence in every tier from day 1 due to its crazy ability, amazing typing, vast movepool and acceptable stats, now finds itself as the most problematic part of our metagame. While initially Choice sets were the most prevalent with the occasional Nasty Plot strats, fraun's famous Max Defense Reflect Weakness Policy Set has surprised everyone with how much this thing was actually capable of; with the appropriate stat spreads and movesets this mon seems to be able to beat anything, from reflect metal sound to thunder wave hex to light screen to nasty plot i swear ive seen everything on this guy, and with its biggest nemesis Chi-Yu now gone, beating this guy both in the builder and in game is a massive headache. I could keep going for even longer but I think it's clear to mostly anyone that has touched SV recently that this Pokemon does not belong with how lackluster its checks and counters are. My stance on Gholdengo is to outright quickban it but I understand that a certain process has to be followed so I don't think suspecting it is that bad of an idea.

2. :iron-valiant: Iron Valiant :iron-valiant: already borderline even before the chi yu ban, if gholdengo, its biggest counter, were to get removed, iron valiant would absolutely need to get booted right after. Encore Disable Booster Energy already pushed Scream Tail over the edge, and one thing valiant has that demon puff didnt is really high offensive stats with a good offensive typing and moveset to boot. While I admit the former is much more relevant than the latter, its enough to make this mon banworthy. QB or Suspect, it matters little, just make it quick.

3. :greninja: Greninja :greninja: dropped very recently but from what I've heard its cancer up the wazoo. Trillion different items and moves and sets its pretty much a build-a-threat of a mon; I've seen some random ass petaya counter shit just snag a win for no reason, so weird. I've heard that its not as banworthy as the rest but maybe if valiant's gone its worth suspecting it, after all it feels awfully similar to a specific scorching bunny we've had our fair share of.

if all 3 of these guys get booted, or even just a couple, I can easily see :annihilape: Annihilape or :flutter-mane: Flutter Mane needing a ban, but I doubt we'll even have the time to get that far.

The main point is that these things take time, between the On The Radar thread, people posting, Council deciding, suspects lasting weeks, etc. we cannot afford to show up to PL's doorstep with so many issues all piled up and no time to address them, we risk ruining the biggest tour of the year just due to lack of action.

I'm also gonna use this post to say that, looking at the mons Home is bringing us, while some hope that it will be a saving grace and bring us to a whole different tier (wishful thinking), to me it doesn't seem like it'll be that much different. We'll get a good addition of mons thats for certain and the tier will be less stale, but from my expectations we're seeing <10 mons between the S-B tiers, so nothing that will turn the tier upside down. Which means all the action we're taking on the current metagame is sure to be relevant on post Home as well. As an example, sure we can free Chi Yu once Home drops, but looking at the new mons, I don't see it getting much weaker. Yeah Landorus Therian seems like a good counter but it being outsped means that wisp wp will still likely beat it and scarf chi yu will beat scarf landot, making it a bit of a cat and mouse situation. urshifu rapid strike may be a similar deal, with Specs Psychic completely mauling it unless AV, which will also be losing to wisp, av chi yu beating volcanion and so on and so forth.
 
Hello, I saw this thread alive, so I thought I might as well give my thoughts. I agree with the above post that gholdengo is broken. I believe that action should be taken as soon as possible with pl in 3 weeks the tier is kinda dead rn I have not seen anything new built-in GC especially since gren is banned there for this round which is stupid, but it is unfortunate timing sadly. Because I don't know if gren is stupidly broken or just mid, for example when I ladder it just randomly loses shit it should not, but then I see it beating stuff like why does it beat that, so I don't have thoughts on it I would like for it to see team tour representation. Also about valiant, that thing might be more broken than gholdengo like that thing is insane I would like to see a valiant qb and a gholdengo suspect. which realistically is not happening and the tier stays dead until pl when people complain about the tier and blame the council even tho the thread is dead and nobody gave their thoughts on the tier when they know the council does not play mons.
 
Yo.

As someone who is interested in the state of SV for the quickly approaching PL I wanted to make a post. It's clear that action needs to be taken to balance this tier as it is an incredibly top-heavy mess. I'm not gonna talk out my ass about specifics for the tier about what needs to be banned simply because I have not played a ton of this tier, but this is a better time than ever to share thoughts about how 1v1 operates.

The way 1v1 currently handles tiering is slow and misguided.

This is not meant to be an attack on the council or anyone else who participates in tiering. Please do not make your issues with the pokemon simulator personal, I myself have been guilty of this and it just makes everyone's lives harder for no reason. This post is meant to address systematic issues that can be addressed so everything runs smoother. The main things to go over are how our current policy (or lack thereof) clouds decisions and that council inactivity is not properly handled.

Policy

It is no secret that I think policy fails 1v1. It's an arbitrary article to hinge decisions off especially when it's not built for our tier. The lack of specifics leads to many people deriving many different meanings from the same text (insert the 1000th argument about the distinction between unhealthy and uncompetitive) which leads to endless discussion about how a decision is in line with policy when we should be primarily focused on the impact to the balance of the tier. The caveat is that people naturally have different views on what a balanced metagame is, however, there are almost certainly quantifiable metrics (ie. excessive set variance, overwhelming stat difference, etc.) for what it is unbalanced. Frankly, I believe that the current policy is almost entirely inadequate for our purposes and it needs to either be abandoned or overhauled. I will spoiler my rant on things in the current policy that fails us before moving on to improvements that can be made. I will be going over this and not the old framework for a reason I will soon elaborate on in the spoiler.

- First off, I have seen past versions of the policy used for justification on bans which should never be the case. The outdated policy is exactly that, outdated, and there should be a central framework so you don't have the issue of bans disagreeing with each other because you used a different framework (alternatively, abandon caring about satisfying the framework but I digress)

- The definitions outlined for uncompetitive and unhealthy have a fair amount of overlap when it comes to 1v1. Uncompetitive briefly mentions MU losses not necessarily caused by builder inadequacy, with the chief example being Baton Pass, as well as undesirable RNG elements. Unhealthy has an absurdly blanket statement in "These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame" which I have seen many times used to interpret the same exact meanings that uncompetitive covers. In 1v1 specifically, you naturally see this fine line discussed a lot more with mons like ORAS ZardY, Toge in several gens, SM Mew, etc. so having this blur because they to a degree harm both player influence and the builder health of the tier. The simpliest solution is to have unhealthy only describe builder health. There should be no mention of it influencing player decisions or MU in the tier because that is unneccessary and already covered in uncompetitive's description.

- Broken (as described by policy) is a somewhat useless descriptive. Within the framework itself, it is described that "broken" elements can be either uncompetitive or unhealthy. Lines like "These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere" could easily be moved into an updated version of unhealthy. I think most people would agree that banworthy elements either heavily lean towards not properly rewarding player skill (including building skill) or having a negative influence on the meta. You can easily have both of these described as clarified "uncompetitive" or "unhealthy" while totally ditching "broken." It just adds bloat to what could otherwise be a very simple system without overlap/confusion.

- The skill section can be entirely reworked. The battling skill portion is almost entirely inapplicable to 1v1 (Recognizing the Win Condition, Smart Switching, Long-term vs. Short-term Goals, Assessing Risk) and misses key fundamentals to tier. I won't rattle off a bunch of additions I would make to this section because it's ultimately very subjective so if this section is kept (I would personally try to include relevant skill disruptions within uncompetitive) I will leave that to separate discussions.

- Heads up, this is the most subjective issue I have with policy so feel free to glean what you want from it. Precedence should be secondary. Too many decisions are bogged by what precedence you will establish or how previous decisions influence the current one. No more. Obviously, to a certain extent, it is nice to have something to refer back to but this neverending attempt to satisfy previous decisions is counterintuitive. Pokemon is not a game with a ton of patterns so to try to perfectly match your decisions with previous ones done in different situations in different metas by different people is futile. The primary goal of tiering should be to improve the current metagame, appeasing old tiering actions works against this.

"Okay sure dickhead, but what exactly do you suggest we do to improve policy?" I hear you asking. Well, I don't think a ton of alteration needs to be done to make the policy compatible with the tier. Specify that uncompetitive refers to things that hamper player influence/skill. Specify that unhealthy means mons that negatively impact the tier from a builder standpoint (overcentralizing, requiring incredibly specific counterplay, excessive set variance, limiting options or creating too many options, etc.) and make sure it is clear that unhealthy does NOT have any relation to player influence/skill. You can also trim down a lot of sections that add confusion which I outlined in the spoiler, ultimately tho, the goal should be to clarify policy.

Clarification will help people understand why something is problematic and reduce the time that is spent arguing over irrelevant semantics.

Council Improvements

Before I say anything, to reiterate. This is not an attack on anyone and no one has an obligation to spend a shit ton of time on their hobby because they are council. Life happens and people have priorities before developing the tier, which is completely understandable. My issue arises when people who are effectively on Leave of Absence are forced to vote or participate for anything to move forward. If someone is unavailable for an extended period of time, put them on LoA until they are able to tier again. They don't have to be demoted and they can return any time but it's historically been an issue of several council members not participating and holding things up when the community and other council needs urgent action. Members on LoA should have their votes voided; I think mathematically it's better that their votes aren't counted instead of abstains but someone smart can correct me. This will speed up the process and stop bandwagon decisions from happening.

Conclusion

This post is by no means an end-all-be-all but I hope for the sanity of everyone that plays this tier things run smoother this gen. I don't have much else to say, so:

Cheers, The Tripster
 
I agree with many of the sentiments expressed above and hope to talk about something else.

We have not had official samples for the entirety of the SV metagame.

The first few days we had tera and any sort of sample was impossible to build. Then there was scream tail, and so there was more waiting for the meta to settle, and then chi-yu rose to prominence and was banned. Every time the meta is about to settle another broken pokemon pops up to fill the place of its fallen brethren. I do not know when this cycle will stop. All I know is that the current sample submission system only works if there are samples to fall back on - of which there currently are none.
At the rate we are going we are never going to have samples because the ban turnover rate is currently faster than council voting or making samples.
Now this isn't the end of the world, but I feel like sample teams are nice for beginning players who are looking to get into 1v1 or to capture snapshots of a meta as it changes.

Suggestions/Thoughts? Take with a grain of salt
1) Voting on samples as they come in I understand takes more time and commitment but when a metagame is still this volatile after months of development it feels appropriate. It also brings closure to the teambuilder - you don't have to wait (and waste) a month to know whether you need to tweak something and try again or whether the team is accepted.
2) I liked the old submission system purely because it felt friendlier to post a team but maybe that's just me.
 
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