Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

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I JUST REMEMBERED I STILL NEED TO DO PL STATS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
brothers it is time for the bw 1v1 vr shifts.

Cottonee: UR to A+
Aerodactyl: UR to A-
Krookodile: UR to C+
Thundurus-Therian: UR to C+
Miltank: UR to C-
Dragonite: A+ to S- : mixed dragon gem is good, dd is good, band is good, scarf is good. overall a beast mon
Victini: B+ to A-
Volcarona: B+ to A-
Hariyama: B to B+
Metagross: B to B+
Zapdos: B- to B
Virizion: C+ to B+
Keldeo: A+ to A
Porygon-Z: A+ to A
Rhyperior: A+ to A-
Heatran: A to A-
Alakazam: B+ to B
Empoleon: B+ to B
Azumarill: B- to C
Carracosta: C+ to C
Cinccino: C+ to UR
Salamence: C to C-
Venusaur: C to C-
Clefable: C- to D
Feel free to comment on the changes if you agree/disagree with them. Post will be updated in a bit.

e: post updated
 
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I think Snorlax is a very problematic and unhealthy mon in DPP and should be outright banned or obviously suspected

My biggest gripe with Snorlax is how its stats alone invalidate special attackers and its moves and item slot help it beat tons of physical attackers. There's no moves like Psyshock or Secret Sword to take advantage of its lesser physical bulk, so special attackers' best shot is running some janky status move like encore or leech seed or something. When it comes to physical attackers, Snorlax has a lot of options. Chople Berry helps it mitigate its only type weakness, and in conjunction with coverage moves and counter, Snorlax doesn't struggle to beat mons like Banded Infernape that ideally could take care of Snorlax. In addition, you can't always just beat it by setting up - Snorlax often runs choice band or curse sets that can mitigate something like counter's weaknesses.

This mon is versatile. Period. Trying to take into account tournament allowed sets warps building to an obnoxious degree. Nothing reliably beats this thing. Trick isn't effective vs it, and you can't PP stall frustration or even just normal curse sets. This mon brings out the worst parts of DPP's jank factor. No gems, no megas, no Z leads to really weird and specific sets that just make the meta more matchup based. The need to constantly make nonsense techs and just hope they work in tournament only gets substantially worse by Snorlax's presence.

Snorlax lacks counterplay and has insane versatility and allows a ton customisation that the tier imo can't handle. It was banned in ADV for similar reasons and even though these tiers aren't identical you can easily find DPP games that just look like adv in disguise (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1095449218-jmhwo41pte3ssjquk6fjdbhm0a318tupw).
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1083477361-ke94q6o0pyrereac785hofygkbtw9pcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1095446735-ejpbaa6e2gbs7s9uq2ghtffdsvktmc4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen41v1-1071820375
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen41v1-640129
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen41v1-476543

We'll probably be setting up a suspect vote later today
 
Snorlax suspect update!

The 60% super majority needed has been achieved with 7 votes, the remaining votes will not change the outcome of the suspect. As a result, Snorlax is officially banned from the DPP 1v1 tier.

Voters were selected with the criteria of either playing more than 3 DPP 1v1 serieses in the 1v1PLIV or being in the Top 6 of the latest DPP 1v1 Cup.

VotersVotes
187 FanDid Not Vote Yet
aliveDid Not Vote Yet
CloseBan
Dj BreloomDo not Ban
InkreativBan
Jamez155Ban
KaifBan
Poison AdhesiveBan
SynonimousDid Not Vote Yet
xJoelituhBan
YamiBan
Gl VolknerAbs
SoulwindAbs
WailJesusAbs

The Immortal Kris

Ban thoughts:

I'll keep this brief: we decided to suspect this mon for a reason: there's simple very, very little counterplay. It can run Choice Band, Chople Berry, and Mail all very viably and the play and counters to each set are completely different. It is telling that there is no one Pokemon that counters every Snorlax set.
Here are some disgusting calcs:
64 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 236 Def Snorlax: 390-458 (84.4 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Band)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. 112 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 414-488 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mail)

See post above

Not gonna get too much into it, but since you can customize Snorlax however you want, with great item choices (Chople Berry, Mail, and Choice Band) and two amazing abilities, it's quite unpredictable in Team Preview and can be really hard to prepare against due to its versatility.

I will also keep it quite short. This mon had a disgusting amount of sets and was able to literally glue every team. It was able to run a band set, a chople set, a mail stall set and a lefties stall set. All with great success and all kinda surprising because you can hardly predict what lax youre facing. It was able to successfully defeat most special attackers. Both of its abilities help it drastically. Immunity and Thick Fat both are very good abilities for lax and make it eben more obnoxious.

Snorlax's unpredictability when used on a team gives it unfathomable leverage against most of the metagame. It's ability to easily adapt to the metagame puts it over the edge in my opinion. Even good checks like Infernape, TTar, and stall Aerodactyl can be punished depending on the variant and trying to trick it through the use of Rotom-A and other Choice Scarf users isn't reliable with the possibility of Mail being run, giving it a good chance against most of the metagame. It can pick its poison against the entireity of the metagame and still have a good shot of winning. This for me is why it deserves to be banned.
 
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Kaif requested me to write this

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Cottonee suspect test time!
With World Cup of 1v1 coming up very soon, the BW Council has to make sure the metagame is at a competitive enough state to provide healthy games. Cottonee has been on the mouth of everyone who's been playing BW as of lately. The sheer bulk this Pokemon has thanks to Eviolite combined with Prankster Leech Seed + Taunt allows it to beat an unholy amount of threats in the metagame.
With Whimsicott being suspected and banned in the past, the concern for whether Cottonee is to also be considered ban-worthy rises.

Arguments in favor of a Cottonee ban:
  • The sheer amount of match-ups Cottonee covers makes it extremely strong and easy to use on every team, making it a very splashable mon with extremely little opportunity cost.​
  • Cottonee has a low amount of viable counters, drastically reducing the amount of good teams that can be made.​
  • The over-centralization of having both Kyurem-Black and Cottonee in the same metagame, with both requiring very diverse Pokemon to beat them, restricts teambuilding to very specific Pokemon combinations.​
  • Bulkier than the previously banned Whimsicott both on the physical and the special side.​
Arguments against a Cottonee ban:
  • However strong Cottonee may be, it realistically cannot run anything besides its main set (with a few EV changes), making it very predictable at team preview and not so hard to prepare for.
  • Cottonee's counters, although lackluster, are very reliable and usually have a 100% winrate.
  • Its presence in the metagame incentivizes creativity and thinking out of the box, pushing the metagame to further development.
  • While very similar to Whimsicott, it does not have access to an item (Mental Herb, Occa/Yache/Coba/Tanga/Kebia Berry, etc.), which is what pushed Whimsicott over the edge.

Will fluffy LC ball eventually be banned? Who knows! Stay tuned...
 
neomon and Synonimous will no longer be part of ADV Council for inactivity reasons.

That said, ADV has also successfully overhauled their Viability Rankings!

:zapdos: Zapdos A+ > S-
:raikou: Raikou A- > S-
:salamence: Salamence A- > A
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl B- > A
:blaziken: Blaziken B- > A-
:gengar: Gengar B- > B+
:marowak: Marowak B- > S-
:medicham: Medicham B- > B+
:registeel: Registeel B- > A+
:vaporeon: Vaporeon B- > B
:entei: Entei C+ > B
:scizor: Scizor C+ > B-
:alakazam: Alakazam C > B+
:jynx: Jynx C > C+

:tyranitar: Tyranitar A+ > A
:celebi: Celebi A > B
:heracross: Heracross A > A-
:swampert: Swampert A > B+
:jirachi: Jirachi A- > B+
:gyarados: Gyarados B+ > B-
:milotic: Milotic B+ > C+
:breloom: Breloom B > C+
:flygon: Flygon B > C+
:moltres: Moltres B > B-
:umbreon: Umbreon B > C-
:miltank: Miltank C+ > C-
:hariyama: Hariyama C+ > C-
:meganium: Meganium C+ > UR
:cradily: Cradily C > C-

All the votes are happening on a VR Spreadsheet that anyone can view.
 
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neomon and Synonimous will no longer be part of ADV Council for inactivity reasons.

That said, ADV has also successfully overhauled their Viability Rankings!

:zapdos: Zapdos A+ > S-
:raikou: Raikou A- > S-
:salamence: Salamence A- > A
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl B- > A
:blaziken: Blaziken B- > A-
:gengar: Gengar B- > B+
:marowak: Marowak B- > S-
:medicham: Medicham B- > B+
:registeel: Registeel B- > A+
:vaporeon: Vaporeon B- > B
:entei: Entei C+ > B
:scizor: Scizor C+ > B-
:alakazam: Alakazam C > B+
:jynx: Jynx C > C+

:tyranitar: Tyranitar A+ > A
:celebi: Celebi A > B
:heracross: Heracross A > A-
:swampert: Swampert A > B+
:jirachi: Jirachi A- > B+
:gyarados: Gyarados B+ > B-
:milotic: Milotic B+ > C+
:breloom: Breloom B > C+
:flygon: Flygon B > C+
:moltres: Moltres B > B-
:umbreon: Umbreon B > C-
:miltank: Miltank C+ > C-
:hariyama: Hariyama C+ > C-
:meganium: Meganium C+ > UR
:cradily: Cradily C > C-

All the votes are happening on a VR Spreadsheet that anyone can view.

when all old gens got revamps / updates except DPP :psyduck:
 
cottonee.gif


Stable covered what Cottonee generally does in his post so I’m going to give my personal perspective on it. It's definitely the second most oppressive and restrictive mon in the teambuilder with Kyub being the only mon to surpass it in terms of that imo. Much like what Whimsicott forced before to a larger extent, every team has to have a Grass or something that can OHKO (Genesect, Scizor, etc) or an unorthodox Taunt mon to beat Cottonee. Using wacky sets like this to bait Cottonee is something me and some others have consistently done in recent tours due to the threat it has to teams. As of right now I do think that there is enough counterplay to the mon in the tier with things like Virizion, Specs Kyub, Thundurus-Therian, etc being popularised to beat Cottonee as it cannot slap on Yache/Tanga/Occa/Coba berry like its evolution could to beat pokemon that can OHKO it with super effective moves. The 40% winrate it had in pl is definitely showing that the metagame has somewhat adapted to it. Kyub in my opinion is wayy more oppressive in the builder than Cottonee invalidating a lot of the metagame on its own with its versatility but I don't see that as banworthy either. Similarly to the DPP Snorlax Suspect, I'll be setting up a vote soon. I encourage everyone to post their thoughts on Cottonee and if you think it is banworthy or not.
 
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Stable covered what Cottonee generally does in his post so I’m going to give my personal perspective on it. It's definitely the second most oppressive and restrictive mon in the teambuilder with Kyub being the only mon to surpass it in terms of that imo. Much like what Whimsicott forced before to a larger extent, every team has to have a Grass or something that can OHKO (Genesect, Scizor, etc) or an unorthodox Taunt mon to beat Cottonee. Using wacky sets like this to bait Cottonee is something me and some others have consistently done in recent tours due to the threat it has to teams. As of right now I do think that there is enough counterplay to the mon in the tier with things like Virizion, Specs Kyub, Thundurus-Therian, etc being popularised to beat Cottonee as it cannot slap on Yache/Tanga/Occa/Coba berry like its evolution could to beat pokemon that can OHKO it with super effective moves. The 40% winrate it had in pl is definitely showing that the metagame has somewhat adapted to it. Kyub in my opinion is wayy more oppressive in the builder than Cottonee invalidating a lot of the metagame on its own with its versatility but I don't see that as banworthy either. Similarly to the DPP Snorlax Suspect, I'll be setting up a vote soon. I encourage everyone to post their thoughts on Cottonee and if you think it is banworthy or not.
Cottonee is ass and loses to everything. It doesn't have the berry that made whimsi truly broken and is way less oppressive than KyuB. It doesn't force teams to run a grass because it's much less bulky and doesn't have the berry so you can consistently counter it with strong enough attackers. Please just ban KyuB, the real issue, so that games stop being KyuB KyuB counter filler. Cowards.
 
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VotersVotes
Joker 1v1Did Not Vote Yet
AltcauseImInsecureBan
ggopwBan
neomonDo Not Ban
stableprince569Ban
SimboBan
DEGBan
SolarflareRoBan
KaifDo Not Ban
wanonyBan
Freddy KyogreDid Not Vote Yet
Poison AdhesiveDo Not Ban
Cottonee is officially banned from the BW 1v1 Tier with the supermajority of 7 votes being reached. Thanks for voting.

Tagging Kris and The Immortal to implement.
 
USUM Announcement

Sample Sets have been put on the dex for all the lower tier USUM 1v1 Pokemon! The higher tier Pokemon have full on analyses, so samples aren't needed for them. This is basically everything C and below, alongside some C+ mons and Mega Audino. Hopefully full analyses can be created for these Pokemon in the future, but for now at least samples are available.


If you want to include a set for one of these Pokemon and you feel like it deserves to be a sample, pm me the set w/ some short reasoning

special thanks to Rosa pqs Nalei Le Creme Brule Jamez155 for helping out with this effort
 
GSC OU is my favorite OU tier and I was quite sad to see GSC 1v1 is both entirely abandoned and uninteresting. I think to anyone who understands GSC mechanics understand why GSC 1v1 might have some issues. I plan to work on amending those issues, but first I'll explain the three things that are problematic.

#1: Sleep Moves and Sleep Talk

sleep.PNG

While Sleep moves were banned from the previous incarnation of GSC 1v1 and I don't think they belong back. Jynx basically kills anything under 95 speed and Persian while relying on Hypnosis does basically the same thing albeit less reliably, overall just introduces an unnecessarily luck based factor into the tier especially when considering OHKO'g things in GSC is nigh-impossible (I'll get to that later.)

I think the main issue at hand would be Sleep Talk. In GSC, Sleep Talk can call Rest and both get you back to full HP and reset the Rest counter. This makes reliably killing things a massive pain in the neck when considering any chip may be undone at a moment's notice and as stated earlier introduces RNG into the tier. I don't think the solution would be banning Rest as than you have the massive issue of Toxic/TWave becoming incredibly busted. Banning Sleep Talk would kill the RNG factor and make reliably setting up on asleep pokemon more reliable. How you go about solving Rest as a move is tricky because if you ban Rest Toxic runs amok. A Rest ban could work since offensive mons don't care and some stall mons have Heal Bell anyways to keep Toxic in check, but this doesn't fix TWave being incredibly annoying. I would like to hear more thoughts on this.

#2: Berserk Gene
gene.PNG

I think this is a pretty cut and dry case of an item that simply doesn't belong in 1v1. Berserk Gene basically applies Swagger to the mon that holds it when sent out. Either leads to a mon being able to get way too strong for no drawback or killing on mon based on bad confusion pulls. I think beforehand it was kept unbanned as a necessary evil, being able to provide mons w/ breaking capabilities since choice items don't exist. In my opinion I don't think this solves the issue as opposed to creating a new one. Basically forces people to use breakers that may just kill themselves (keep in mind Confusion is 50% this gen) or Marowak. Not a healthy presence in the tier both parts of the item are inherently ridiculous don't see much reason to keep it in the tier.

#3: EVs/DVs and Lack of Natures
fat.PNG

I think this is the largest hurdle GSC 1v1 faces. Every EV is maxed out from the get-go meaning everything is insanely bulky and strong. However, it is important to note strength does not scale up with bulk. This is due to a lack of offensive items such as LO or choice items in addition to the fact that there aren't any boosting natures. Overall, mons are just fatter than they are strong. This leads to stall sets likely to dominate especially when you consider the lack of anti-stall options such as Trick or Taunt. There is no way to get around this w/o some kind of modification that limits EVs to 508 (as per usual) but you're being unfaithful to GSC at that point. The focus should be shifted to balancing things around this instead of trying to fix it through modification, wanted to make this section to highlight how important this is to GSC.

So where do we go from here? The answer is bans!

Snorlax and the combo of Encore+Disable should be banned!
:gs/Snorlax:
Snorlax is a nigh unkillable beast. Boasting monstrous 160/65/110 bulk and Normal typing it becomes insanely rough to break especially when you consider its massive movepool. Counter and Curse making poking at its lower defense difficult and its serviceable special coverage in Fire Blast, Ice Beam, and TBolt make it quite insane especially when you can run special moves at no cost outside of a moveslot. You also have to keep in mind that options for Fighting STAB are incredibly limited w/ the best options being HP Fighting and Cross Chop. Overall Lax would just be a massive hassle in the builder and on preview, Lax is generally busted in 1v1 shouldn't be a shock that in the gen Lax the best mon in OU that it wouldn't be a fit for 1v1.
:gs/Alakazam: :gs/Dewgong:
Encore lasts from 3-7 turns in GSC and Disable 1-7. Even considering the 55% accuracy Disable has this seems incredibly annoying. I'm down for testing Dewgong since it has its fair share of issues but Alakazam w/ Encore/Disable/Recover/Barrier seems highkey unbeatable. Not a fan of a mechanic that basically forces your check to be "get lucky." EDIT: Struggle only doing 1/4 of the damage dealt may mean this is fine but I'm still of the opinion this should be looked at

I do hope that GSC can develop in some capacity. If you are interested in developing or playing the tier DM me at zioziotrip#4846 on Discord.
 
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helo there have been many shifts with tda leaving, freddy / close joining, and pl ending so i thought i'd put them here

:dragonite: USUM VR Shifts :magearna:

Rises

:metagross-mega: A -> A+
:zygarde-complete: A- -> A
:serperior: B+ -> A-
:sableye-mega: B -> B+
:clefable: B -> B+
:crustle: B -> B+
:registeel: B -> B+
:carracosta: B- -> B
:diancie-mega: B- -> B
:krookodile: B- -> B
:tapu-bulu: B- -> B
:type-null: B- -> B
:audino-mega: C+ -> B-
:chansey: C -> C+
:emboar: C
-> C+
:smeargle: C -> C+
:tyranitar: C -> C+
:vaporeon: C -> C+
:keldeo: C- -> C
:landorus: C- -> C
:pyukumuku: C- -> C
:abomasnow-mega: D -> C-
:sylveon: D -> C-

Drops


:porygon-z: S- -> A+
:jumpluff: B+ -> B
:blaziken: C+ -> C
:gigalith: C+ -> C
:regice: C+ -> C
:thundurus: C
-> C-
:milotic: C- -> D
:roserade: D -> UR
 
DPP VR shifts (sorry for being late, haven't had internet for about a week)
Cresselia A+ -> S-
Dragonite A+ -> S-
Jirachi A -> A+
Kingdra A- -> A+
Tangrowth A- -> A
Togekiss B+ -> A-
Gastrodon B -> B+
Hariyama B -> B+
Scizor B -> B+
Azelf B- -> B+
Weavile B- -> B
Magnezone UR -> B-

Zapdos S- -> A+
Rotom-A A+ -> A
Blissey A- -> B+
Gengar A- -> B+
Moltres B+ -> B
Clefable B -> B-
Starmie B -> B-
Slowbro B- -> C+
Arcanine C+ -> C
Abomasnow C+ -> C-
Lanturn C+ -> C
Lucario C -> C-
Hitmontop C- -> UR
Honchkrow C- -> UR
Kangaskhan C- -> UR
Wobbuffet C- -> UR
 
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