Resource 1v1 Sword and Shield Viability Rankings

Hello again it is I, smely socks, here with another mon created by both ME and Nalei. I know y'all were skeptical of pot, but I promise this next mon is good.

Introducing Ninetales
1589157737630.png

The secret tech:
Ninetales @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Disable
- Pain Split
- Overheat/Solar Beam/Flamethrower
What do it do?
Ok this mon is kinda funky but has been successful on ladder. In testing it mostly beats choice mons along with a few other wonky mus. With endure you ensure that you live a hit and pop your salac berry. With a base speed stat of 100 you then ensure that you outspeed all relevant choice mons not named dragapult or unnerve scarf haxorus. From there you disable to struggle lock you opponent, pain split to get a struggle off, then overheat to finish them off. Having endure also ensures that if overheat fails to kill and you are low on health that you can get another struggle turn off and survive. This set is based off of nalei's gengar set that they used during PL but it also has slightly more bulk so you can beat mons like darm who deal 66% to your gengar with struggle
>:(


Added perks of this set
This set also has some unique gem mu's that I found in testing which include:
  • Beating non stall rotom wash (you need flamethrower or solar beam for this one in case they trick)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in Sun: 254-300 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  • Band dracovish (this is where you employ the endure stall to get struggle chip no solar beam necessary)​
  • A good matchup vs sylveon
    136 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 86-102 (29.8 - 35.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
    252 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon in Sun: 129-153 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • Gardevoir (you 2ko it so if it tricks you they die and if they dont it's struggle time baby :3)​
In conclusion
Is ninetales the next mimikyu? Of course it isn't silly. What ninetales does do well is stopping choice threats and beating a handful of those pesky fairy types that are being spammed at this point in the meta. Right now it is sitting at a criminally underrated C- while its alolan cousin is in C. I propose that ninetales is in fact a B- mon. It does a great job at what you need it to do and although it has plenty of flaws it is an effective choice stopper and can finesse a win in a pinch.

Alolan ninetales can probably do all this as well so you all should make a set with that as well cause it can probably beat all the dragons basic ninetales can't beat


tldr: ninetales C- --> B-
 
Last edited:
Hello again it is I, smely socks, here with another mon created by both ME and Nalei. I know y'all were skeptical of pot, but I promise this next mon is good.

Introducing Ninetales
View attachment 244593

The secret tech:
Ninetales @ Salac Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Disable
- Pain Split
- Overheat/Solar Beam/Flamethrower
What do it do?
Ok this mon is kinda funky but has been successful on ladder. In testing it mostly beats choice mons along with a few other wonky mus. With endure you ensure that you live a hit and pop your salac berry. With a base speed stat of 100 you then ensure that you outspeed all relevant choice mons not named dragapult or unnerve scarf haxorus. From there you disable to struggle lock you opponent, pain split to get a struggle off, then overheat to finish them off. Having endure also ensures that if overheat fails to kill and you are low on health that you can get another struggle turn off and survive. This set is based off of nalei's gengar set that they used during PL but it also has slightly more bulk so you can beat mons like darm who deal 66% to your gengar with struggle
>:(


Added perks of this set
This set also has some unique gem mu's that I found in testing which include:
  • Beating non stall rotom wash (you need flamethrower or solar beam for this one in case they trick)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in Sun: 254-300 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  • Band dracovish (this is where you employ the endure stall to get struggle chip no solar beam necessary)​
  • A good matchup vs sylveon
    136 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 86-102 (29.8 - 35.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
    252 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon in Sun: 129-153 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • Gardevoir (you 2ko it so if it tricks you they die and if they dont it's struggle time baby :3)​
In conclusion
Is ninetales the next mimikyu? Of course it isn't silly. What ninetales does do well is stopping choice threats and beating a handful of those pesky fairy types that are being spammed at this point in the meta. Right now it is sitting at a criminally underrated C- while its alolan cousin is in C. I propose that ninetales is in fact a B- mon. It does a great job at what you need it to do and although it has plenty of flaws it is an effective choice stopper and can finesse a win in a pinch.

Alolan ninetales can probably do all this as well so you all should make a set with that as well cause it can probably beat all the dragons basic ninetales can't beat


tldr: ninetales C- --> B-
This also works with Gengar, to win matchups vs Sylveon and maybe Primarina if you add extra bulk, don't quote me on the last one.

Gengar @ Salac Berry
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Endure
- Disable
- Pain Split
 
This also works with Gengar, to win matchups vs Sylveon and maybe Primarina if you add extra bulk, don't quote me on the last one.

Gengar @ Salac Berry
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Endure
- Disable
- Pain Split
i was actually by nalei's gengar lol
"but it also has slightly more bulk so you can beat mons like darm who deal 66% to your gengar with struggle >:("
 
This also works with Gengar, to win matchups vs Sylveon and maybe Primarina if you add extra bulk, don't quote me on the last one.

Gengar @ Salac Berry
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Endure
- Disable
- Pain Split
Can't really win versus primarina with this set: primarina just arias into aqua jet and kills you.
128+ SpA Mystic Water Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 219-258 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Mystic Water Primarina Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 55-66 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Sludge wave doesn't kill, but it does put prima in torrent range so that's not great either.
252+ SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I tried to look for a couple ways to win here, but the matchup is generally pretty bad: gengar can't ohko it with some other move (was hoping it might get Belch), it can't really debuff prim, and using giga drain lets you avoid the KO from aqua jet but it isn't a 2hko).

You can, however, run 4 Def/252 SpD/252 speed with a Jolly nature (or a Timid nature and four SpA IVs). That way, Mystic Water primarina can't kill you while you 2hko it. I'm not using HP investment because it makes Pain Split worse, and I'm tanking SpA to avoid activating Torrent. As a nice bonus, you now outspeed a couple extra scarvers after salac activates.

0- SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
128+ SpA Mystic Water Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Gengar: 165-195 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Mystic Water Primarina Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 55-66 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

This allows you to beat primarina, keep the 2hko against sylveon, still do okay against grasses (most of them weren't weak against poison to begin with and had to be taken down with disable, you still kill rillaboom though), and still do all of your regular Disable shenanigans.

But HCTC, what about other fairies? Well, what about them? Sylveon and Primarina are 70% of the fairy meta, togekiss still loses because it's scarf and you disable-stall it, aromatisse was kind of beating you either way, non-kebia whimsicott dies (and kebia can be outplayed), and both scarf and specs gardevoir get disabled. Maybe some weird clefable/grimmsnarl sets are now more of a threat, but those are niche anyway.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: M24
Weavile has a somewhat underwhelming offensive set, as well as an interesting pressure stall set. With the rising popularity of darmanitan, I'd like to present the following alternative:

Weavile @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Fake Out
- Icicle Crash
- Throat Chop/Low Kick

The basic premise is simple: Pickpocket activates after held items are triggered, so if any contact move knocks you down to 1 HP you both eat your liechi berry and steal the target's item. This notably allows you to steal choice items while also getting +1 to attack.

The above set is just one spread making use of the strategy and can probably be further optimized, but beats:
-All darmanitans: fake out for chip, endure on their inevitable ohko, get the berry boost, deal big damage with your newly choiced non-ice move. Fake out deals 20%, +1 throat chop does at least 90 (more if you steal a band instead of a scarf). Low Kick obviously also kills.
-Physical scarf mons like sawk, haxorus, darmanitan-unova, and the rare excadrill (my only regret is not making this set before jirachi got banned).
-Band dracovish, as well as all dracozolts.
-Band durant, if running throat chop.
-Tyranitar, band snorlax, and band steelix, if running low kick. (also bisharp but who uses that)
-Whimsicott, you tank one moonblast and are immune to everything else.
-Hitmonlee: your fake out outspeeds it, meaning it can't speed up before getting destroyed by icicle crash.
-Various other physical threats, like band sawk, band sirfetch'd, band centiskorch, and some others.
-The general frailer things you'd expect a dark/ice type to beat: specs gardevoir (after enduring to get liechi), celebi, hydreigon, goodra, specs chandelure, non-timid gengar, and venusaur. Some of these obviously require throat chop, most don't.

There is obvious synergy here with disablepult and even galarian darmanitan (though get something for conk in the latter case), both pokemon who don't appreciate faster attackers.

In light of this, weavile should at the very least be elevated to rank C, perhaps C+ (that's where hitmonlee and togedemaru are, whose wins are also basically 'every G-darm, plus assorted fast mons').


EDIT: Don't run min defense like an earlier version of the post said: the updated set can (usually) survive an earthquake from scarf jolly darm and KO by attacking directly. It requires some prediction versus foes familiar with the set (and carrying earthquake) but is still overall quite solid.
 
Last edited:
hello back again after cycle 2 and here are some mons I think that should be dropped:

:Corsola-Galar: A- to B+
By far the most overrated mon on VR and honestly don't know how it hasn't dropped yet. Gets abused by any taunt/trick/encore users and IMO is very easy to play around because the only set you can actually run on this is eviolite stall so you don't have to predict the set. Yes, it still has some good MU's and a good ability but I can name a lot of mons that are popular in the current meta rn that can beat it.

:Mandibuzz: A- to B+
I think Aromatisse and Corvi do its job 10x better as you're definitely more likely to get crit and lose while trying to stall out with mandibuzz. Also, dark typing isn't necessarily the best either and it realistically loses to all but 2 of the mons in A- tier and up. There's a reason why this mons popularity died out.

:Diggersby: B+ to B
Diggersby frailness and lack of speed really hurt it. Huge power is great for dealing with metagame sheeps like prim or sylveon, but diggersby lack of speeds lets it getting taken advantage by faster offensive mons or even the bulkier/sturdy offensive mons such as lix, rhyp, crustle etc since eq won't' kill. Most stall can deal with it too as one wisp basically kills this thing and you can EV for giga. Overall, it's just a Walmart version of Darm G.

:Excadrill: B- to C+
Now that its only niche is gone, it's safe to say that this is mon is garbage. Despite having a good ability, it has a very bad typing and has so many bad MU against higher tier and lower tier mons. Plus it's almost necessary to run scarf on drill or it will get outsped by a majority of the offensive threats you're trying to beat.

:Terrakion: C+ to C-
Terrak is just not good in 1v1. Horrible typing and a lot of mons that are ranked lower than it have no problem beating it.

:Scrafty: C to C-
Another mon with bad typing and I'd run obstatgoon 100 percent of the time if I wanted to be 4x weak to fairy even though scraft has intimidate.

:Crawdaunt: C to C-
Loses to most stall, bad typing, slow, and only viable with band. Arquanid is defiantly better than this.

:Virizion: C- to D
This mon is such ass it's not even funny.
 
Last edited:
nomming Zeraora to A-
Zeraora has amazing coverage in Play Rough, Outrage, Throat Chop, Close Combat, and a cheeky Blaze Kick, not to mention its signature plasma fists. It easily beats classical threats like Primarina and If it Zeraora scarf then Darmanitan-Galar won't be much of a problem. B+ is just rude, even though it loses to Arcanine and defensive Dracovish but who cares. Whimsicott naturally beats it and Arcanine is strong against it but it beats rest of A- pretty easily. It also decimates Dragapult with Outrage and Crustle wouldn't outspeed after a shell smash but if Crustle clicks counter you're dead. Because it could get beaten by both A rank Pokemons and it easily decimates B+ (even though sash flail diggersby beats it :3 NVM sash is banned) ; A- is a good place for it.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118365430 <-- Even a life orb set could OHKO Dragapult
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118369069 <-- Zera beats Primarina, but that's obvious
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118372309 <-- Sylveon gets beaten
 
Last edited:
nomming Zeraora to A-
Zeraora has amazing coverage in Play Rough, Outrage, Throat Chop, Close Combat, and a cheeky Blaze Kick, not to mention its signature plasma fists. It easily beats classical threats like Primarina and If it Zeraora scarf then Darmanitan-Galar won't be much of a problem. B+ is just rude, even though it loses to Arcanine and defensive Dracovish but who cares. Whimsicott naturally beats it and Arcanine is strong against it but it beats rest of A- pretty easily. It also decimates Dragapult with Outrage and Crustle wouldn't outspeed after a shell smash but if Crustle clicks counter you're dead. Because it could get beaten by both A rank Pokemons and it easily decimates B+; A- is a good place for it.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118365430 <-- Even a life orb set could OHKO Dragapult
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118369069 <-- Zera beats Primarina, but that's obvious
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1118372309 <-- Sylveon gets beaten
I used Zera a lot when Mimi was around, so I can speak for this mon a bit. Zera suffers from 4MSS a little. Of course its gonna run Plasma Fists, but it wants to run Outrage for Dragapult and Dracovish, Close Combat for Darm-Galar, Knock Off for Gardevoir and Haban Dragapult, Taunt/Bulk Up for stall, and Fake Out for Sawk and other Sturdys. It also wants to run Choice Band for extra power, but LO so it doesn't get bopped by stall. Yet, it still has shaky matchups against Gastrodon, the Rotoms, and Sylveon (ik you have a replay, but you got lucky with the sleep turns. Also, Hyper Beam bops Zera).

Also "decimates B+"? I don't know, but it gets a lot 50/50s though:

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: - we all know what happens here
:Avalugg: - ID or Band EQ win unless Bulk Up CC; gotta predict the set
:Diggersby: - Scarf doesn't outspeed Timid Zera lol
:Hydreigon: - win even if Haban: 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 249-294 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:Incineroar: - Chople/WP + Bulk Up can win
:Kommo-o: - gotta predict ID/Body Press 50/50; 96+ Def Kommo-o Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 157-186 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
:Kyurem: - Kyu can bulk for Zera; also gotta predict Chople/Haban
:Rillaboom: - Blaze Kick wins
:Rotom-Heat: - Gotta predict stall or offensive
:Snorlax: - win if not Chople, which is less common than Band but still something to consider
:Togekiss: - Just don't get flinched lol
:Zeraora: - Speed ties but this doesn't count lol

A large part of Zera's role was beating Mimi and Jirachi (LO Knock Off and Taunt beat both), but now that those threats are gone, Zera isn't all that useful. Its speed is amazing and it's coverage is great for 1v1, but it doesn't have the power or coverage that would make an Electric-type good (ice or grass). I don't think it belongs in A- with Sawk and Haxorus, two Phys attackers who might lose to Darm or Prim, but don't suffer the same 4MSS Zera does. B+/B is a good place for it.

I'm not the most experienced player, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol
 
I agree with the A- nomination for zeraora. Its creative sets of scarf and charge along with the more standard options of band / life orb should be placing zeraora back where it used to be. Its main niche is that it serves as an offensive counter to mons that generally put lots of pressure on bulkier builds such as primarina, dracovish, togekiss, hydreigon, dragapult and haxorus (you run play rough which is better than outrage in this meta considering how prevalent haban berry dragons are). I feel as if zeraora is still being used as if it were in the mimikyu / jirachi meta; people are still running knock off and outrage, two moves which to me don't have anywhere near the appeal that they used to. It feels as if zeraora isn't receiving enough attention for what it does well, in comparison to what it struggles to deal with
 
hey, sustenance_1 here, just wanted to share a mon ive been having tons of fun with on ladder that can stand its ground as a competitively viable mon.

Gurdurr_XY.gif

Gurdurr (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 23 Spe
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Counter

gurdurr hones the power of eviolite and its raw natural physical bulk to tank just about any physical move thrown at it and ko back with counter. for those who are too weak to not hit it hard enough to be killed by counter, it can simply bulk up and drain punch to shrug off any blows thrown at it. knock off is for ghost types like physical aegislash and dragapult.

here are some relevant calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 262-310 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 295-348 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 316-373 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

now every mon has its weakness, and it should be clear to see that its special bulk is very lacking, and with lower power moves only helping it in those matchups, its safe to say that the majority of special attackers in 1v1 could handle it very easily. but dont let this distract you from what this mon is capable of, as it can invalidate almost any offensively inclined physical attacker on the vr if its in the right hands.

sure it may have a huge exploitable weakness in special attackers, i think its safe to say this bad boy belongs in the c+ tier.

tl;dr: gurdurr ur -> c+
 

Alakazam

birds are singing, flowers are blooming
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
hey, sustenance_1 here, just wanted to share a mon ive been having tons of fun with on ladder that can stand its ground as a competitively viable mon.

View attachment 249055
Gurdurr (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 23 Spe
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Counter

gurdurr hones the power of eviolite and its raw natural physical bulk to tank just about any physical move thrown at it and ko back with counter. for those who are too weak to not hit it hard enough to be killed by counter, it can simply bulk up and drain punch to shrug off any blows thrown at it. knock off is for ghost types like physical aegislash and dragapult.

here are some relevant calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 262-310 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 295-348 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 316-373 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

now every mon has its weakness, and it should be clear to see that its special bulk is very lacking, and with lower power moves only helping it in those matchups, its safe to say that the majority of special attackers in 1v1 could handle it very easily. but dont let this distract you from what this mon is capable of, as it can invalidate almost any offensively inclined physical attacker on the vr if its in the right hands.

sure it may have a huge exploitable weakness in special attackers, i think its safe to say this bad boy belongs in the c+ tier.

tl;dr: gurdurr ur -> c+
added to the nom list
 
Socks here, since the meta has changed once again with the removal of Mimikyu and Jirachi, I have a few demotions of mons that took a hit with the bans.

:rillaboom: Rillaboom B+ —> B
This mon had it’s niche as a mimi bait that also beat jirachi ~but now that those two mons are gone it really doesn’t do as much as it used too. This isn’t to say its dropped completely in viability as it has a variety of sets and can still bait things such as Sylveon with certain sets.

:Whimsicott: Whimsicott A- —> B+
Whims was also a grass type that had worked to counter both mimi and jirachi. Not to mention it loses to most sets of the top 4 mons ranked and many other meta threats such as Aromatisse.

:Type Null: Type: Null C+ —> C
Null definitely doesn't put in as much work as it used to, its hard to build around, and loses to most of the top threats. Not having mimi or jirachi def puts a damper on null’s viability. Thats the 4th time I mentioned not having mimi and jirachi.
:psycry:

:Hitmonlee: Hitmonlee C+ —> C
Hitmonlee isn't used much anymore for similar reasons mentioned above :9 (Fake Out, Unburden, Normal Gem).

And finally a nom-
:Copperajah: Copperajah C —> C+/ B-
Copperajah takes a stand as a anti fairy mon similar to Steelix but can instead beat Primarina with better coverage moves. This isn’t to say that it’s better than Steelix as it can’t beat heavy hitters such as Galarm, Vish, and Sawk.
Copperajah @ Life Orb
Ability: Heavy Metal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Heat Crash
- Power Whip
- Taunt

Credits to Nalei for the set btw (Max Speed for prim and such).
 
:primarina: :darmanitan-galar: :sylveon:
Currently, Primarina sits at S and Darm and Sylveon are in S-. I don't think that this order is wrong but I would like to nominate that Sylveon drop to A+. I've been an advocate for this mon for a long time but with the growth that Primarina has seen it's struggled to compete, particularly in reliability. It sits at the same oversaturated speed tier of 60 but is far more vulnerable to getting Subbed on than Primarina and additionally relies on Yawn RNG for many of its matchups or simply opts out of them by forgoing Yawn. Its lack of physical bulk rules it out of beating many Pokemon that Primarina can and its best way of hitting Steel-types is... Mystical Fire. The other two are much stronger than this with Darm being by far the most splashable Pokemon in the tier in both building picking, bruting through nearly anything which wasn't specifically prepared for it that it outspeeds with its Band set and threatening to flinch anything that can tank a hit with Icicle Crash. It's a fairly 2D mon but the anticipation between its 2 and a half sets is still tough to face at preview. Primarina hardly needs the praise but I'll say that after extensively set building for it (see: 22 sets https://pokepast.es/68d84f60fbabdf85), it has extremely few counters. With the right tech this thing can blow through shit like Zera, either Rotom, SpD Aromatisse, you name it. Rillaboom is its highest ranked hard counter minus Rotom-W specifically tailored to beat it which tbh, it's ridiculous to think that Rotom-W would even have to do that to beat Prima reliably.

:ninetales-alola: C -> C+
This thing does the same thing as regular Ninetales but trades a couple matchups that it gets from strong Fire STAB for what it can do with Snow Warning and Fairy STAB. Overall a little worse but gleans some matchups of note like Kommo-o and should be ranked a little higher imo.

:drampa: D -> C+
This mon hits STUPID hard. Specs Hyper Beam rips through mons as bulky as Milotic, Fire Blast and Draco OHKO literally anything which are hit super-effectively, and Uproar techs some Rest mons like Rotom and very curiously, Torment Steelix as well as eliminates Sub shenanigans from mons like Cinderace as it OHKOs them outright. It's slow enough that it can't handle Prim or Sylv reliably but the same is true of other mons which rely on beating Prim in their niche like Bewear and Centiskorch (which can almost never afford to run max speed) and all of which lose to Scarf.

:gloom: UR -> C+
I brought this in a tour match a long while ago but it's recently been taken back up by horrible people like Felucia and to good results. For all of its meme, this mon does stuff and is a good Prima+Sylveon counter* which are very important in the current meta. Here's some matchups w/ the set if you want to see how it actually fares.
Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Stench
EVs: 240 HP / 228 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Leech Seed
- Charm / Moonblast / Giga Drain

S Rank
:Primarina: Primarina Win

S- Rank
:Darmanitan-Galar: Darmanitan-Galar Beats Scarf with good RNG, loses to Band
:Sylveon: Sylveon Win

A+ Rank
:Dragapult: Dragapult Loses to most sets

A Rank
:Crustle: Crustle Wins with Charm, wins vs Band regardless
:Dracovish: Dracovish Win

A- Rank
:Arcanine: Arcanine Generally loses
:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar Generally loses
:Corviknight: Corviknight Loss
:Haxorus: Haxorus Win vs Choice, 50/50s Taunt
:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz Loss
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash General loss, Win vs choice if Giga Drain
:Sawk: Sawk Win
:Whimsicott: Whimsicott Win

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: Aromatisse Win
:Avalugg: Avalugg Win
:Diggersby: Diggersby Win
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon Loss
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o Wins with Moonblast
:Kyurem: Kyurem Loss
:Rillaboom: Rillaboom Win
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat Loss
:Snorlax: Snorlax Win vs Band, loss vs Stall/BD
:Togekiss: Togekiss Loss
:Zeraora: Zeraora Win

B Rank
:Aegislash: Aegislash Loses to Metal Sound, Wins otherwise
:Centiskorch: Centiskorch Loss
:Chandelure: Chandelure Loss
:Cinderace: Cinderace Loss
:Conkeldurr: Conkeldurr Win
:Darmanitan: Darmanitan Loss
:Durant: Durant Win
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon Win
:Incineroar: Incineroar General loss
:Rhyperior: Rhyperior Win
:Silvally: Silvally (Water, Poison, Steel)* General loss
:Steelix: Steelix Win
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar Win unless Taunt but beats Taunt with Giga Drain

B- Rank
:Bewear: Bewear Win
:Blastoise: Blastoise Win unless Ice Beam but beats Ice Beam with Giga Drain
:Celebi: Celebi General loss
:Dracozolt: Dracozolt Win
:Duraludon: Duraludon Win
:Excadrill: Excadrill Win unless SubSD
:Gardevoir: Gardevoir Loss
:Gengar: Gengar Loss
:Golisopod:Golisopod General Win
:Goodra: Goodra Loss
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl Win
:Gyarados: Gyarados Win
:Keldeo: Keldeo Win
:Milotic: Milotic Win
:venusaur: Venusaur General loss


:roserade: UR -> C
Functions much like popular Venusaur sets but hits harder and faster at the cost of some bulk and can also use Dazzling Gleam. It's more sleep-reliant because of this but gains some notable matchups over it like Arcanine, Diggersby, Scarf Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and non-Scarf Rotom-H.

:mr mime-galar: UR -> D
Another mon that looks like a meme but really isn't. Has mediocre matchups but some unique sets of wins within them that definitely warrant ranking.
Mr. Mime-Galar @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 172 HP / 104 SpD / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Taunt
- Freeze-Dry
- Icy Wind

S Rank
:Primarina: Primarina Win

S- Rank
:Darmanitan-Galar: Darmanitan-Galar Loss
:Sylveon: Sylveon Prediction-dependent

A+ Rank
:Dragapult: Dragapult Wins unless Band

A Rank
:Crustle: Crustle Loss
:Dracovish: Dracovish Win unless Scarf

A- Rank
:Arcanine: Arcanine Loss
:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar Win (Mirror Coat works on Night Shade)
:Corviknight: Corviknight Loss
:Haxorus: Haxorus Loses to Band/LO, beats Scarf/Haban
:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz General Win
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash Win
:Sawk: Sawk Loss
:Whimsicott: Whimsicott Win

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: Aromatisse Loss
:Avalugg: Avalugg Loss
:Diggersby: Diggersby Loss
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon Loss
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o Win
:Kyurem: Kyurem Win
:Rillaboom: Rillaboom Set-dependent
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat Loss
:Snorlax: Snorlax Loss except to Counter+3 status
:Togekiss: Togekiss Win
:Zeraora: Zeraora Loss


:persian-alola: UR->C-
Very fast physical wall with Taunt. Function isn't far off from Corvi or Mandibuzz but has the speed to reliably beat both as well as really tough mons like Vish, Darm, and Zolt. Sounds fantastic but drops to almost every special attack so don't get too hyped.
Persian-Alola @ Kee Berry
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Taunt
- Foul Play
- Rest

S Rank
:Primarina: Primarina Loss

S- Rank
:Darmanitan-Galar: Darmanitan-Galar Win but roll vs Scarf Superpower
:Sylveon: Sylveon Loss

A+ Rank
:Dragapult: Dragapult General loss

A Rank
:Crustle: Crustle Win
:Dracovish: Dracovish Win

A- Rank
:Arcanine: Arcanine General loss
:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar Win
:Corviknight: Corviknight Win
:Haxorus: Haxorus Loses to Scarf Mold Breaker, wins otherwise
:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz Win
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash Loss
:Sawk: Sawk Win but roll vs Scarf
:Whimsicott: Whimsicott Set-dependent

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: Aromatisse Loss
:Avalugg: Avalugg Loses to Body Press
:Diggersby: Diggersby Win
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon Loss
:Kommo-o: Kommo-o Loss
:Kyurem: Kyurem Loss
:Rillaboom: Rillaboom General loss
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat Loss
:Snorlax: Snorlax Win
:Togekiss: Togekiss Loss
:Zeraora: Zeraora General win

B Rank
:Aegislash: Aegislash Win
:Centiskorch: Centiskorch Set-dependent
:Chandelure: Chandelure Loss
:Cinderace: Cinderace General loss
:Conkeldurr: Conkeldurr General loss
:Darmanitan: Darmanitan 50/50 on Trick
:Durant: Durant Loss
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon Win
:Incineroar: Incineroar Win
:Rhyperior: Rhyperior Win
:Silvally: Silvally (Water, Poison, Steel)* Win
:Steelix: Steelix Win
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar Win
 
Nominating Salazzle from UR to B+ stop sleepin on the lazzle dazzle my man

salazzle.gif


LAZZLE DAZZLE (Salazzle) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Rash Nature
- Fake Out
- Sludge Wave
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot/Encore

Really quick explaination of EV's speed is for outspeeding 252+ base 100's as nothing in between is important to outspeed, unless your scared of a band durant hitting you.... aka timid is absolutely garbage. Max SpA for damage output as well as the +SpA nature to secure KO's on crucial targets. Leftovers is dumped into attack to further boost Fake Out, and -SpDef nature to live crucial hits from Incineroar, Scarf Sawk, Centiskorch, etc. Ability should be obvious as I am not toxicing anything, and blocking taunt is quite clutch vs Mandibuzz. Also haha die attract mons

This mon is absolutely nuts, this Pokemon beats Primarina, Sylveon, Aromatisse, Whimsicott, Non Band Grimmsnarl, and Togekiss if not flinched, so it beats pretty much every single relevant fairy type. Furthermore with fake out + its coverage it covers the many Sturdy pokemon in the tier, including Steelix(technically they can protect t1 so it is a 50/50, but you 100% win if you decide to run encore), Avalugg, Band AND Scarf Sawk assuming no EQ, Crustle, etc. Furthermore it beats many common banded Pokemon such as Darmanitan-Galar, Haxorus, and Diggersby.

It even holds its own against many of the tiers prevalent Fire Type Pokemon, including Darmanitan, Incineraor, Arcanine, and Centiskorch.

Furthermore with Nasty Plot I not only beat the previously mentioned Snarl Incin and arcanine, but I also take down Snarl Mandibuzz and non Amnesia Corsola, AND Kommo-o, which is absolutely huge

You also stomp many Steel types, which are commonly paired with Fairy Types, such as Corviknight, Aegislash, Silvally-Steel, Ferrothorn, and Duraludon!

You can stop reading there if you like, as I hope I have explained just how amazing Salazzle is and totally slept on. I think its biggest asset is being an amazing Steel/Fairy beater as well as covering many Pokemon that try to cover faster threats in general

But I do want to go through a lot of the VR and show concretely what you beat and lose to, I think this will sell my point even more that Salazzle should be B+

S Rank
:Primarina: W A very solid one in fact, showing chilan because if you beat chilan berry you beat non chilan berry, you even outspeed scarf Prim. Basically you beat every single annoying variation of Primarina, except some sort of whack SpDef Prim I guess.
20 Atk Life Orb Salazzle Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Chilan Berry Primarina: 12-15 (3.2 - 4.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ SpA Life Orb Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primarina: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


S- Rank
:Darmanitan-Galar: N Honestly, Scarf Darm and Band Darm should be considered two totally different Pokemon, pretty obvious here you W against Band and L against Scarf
:Sylveon: W Pretty self explanatory, thanks to Salazzle's clutch Fire/Poison typing, you wall Sylveon. Furthemore Sludge Wave cannot miss, this isn't some gunk shot pokemon hoping they hit.
20 Atk Life Orb Salazzle Fake Out vs. 168 HP / 172 Def Sylveon: 31-38 (8.3 - 10.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ SpA Life Orb Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 320-377 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
108+ SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salazzle: 129-151 (46.5 - 54.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO (Pixie plate cannot touch you)
136 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. -4 0 HP / 0- SpD Salazzle: 219-258 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lol


A+ Rank
:Dragapult: L its faster, resists both of your STAB's and will kill you with a Draco Meteor.

A Rank
:Crustle: W You Fake Out to break the Sturdy and Overheat to kill, its amazing. No more worrying about if its Lum, Shell Smash, Band, you just win.
:Dracovish: L sadly one of the only slower notable Pokemon you lose to, Dracovish will tank Fake Out into Sludge Wave and kill you with Fishious Rend, however if you decide to run that Sub Disable Salazzle, you can beat Band Dracovish, so Salazzle wont always lose

A- Rank
:Arcanine: W this is of course assuming they are non Band/Life Orb, as non defensive Arcanine runs Bulldoze, which OHKO's Salazzle. Nasty Plot t1 is the play vs Arcanine, as you outpace Snarl and KO with sludge wave after +4
:Corsola-Galar: N This ones awkward, basically if they are Amnesia, you have very little chance to win, but if they are any move over Amnesia you win with Nasty Plot.
:Corviknight: W lol Overheat byebye
:Haxorus: N You lose to Scarf, which is the most Common, but you beat Band Haxorus and Taunt SD Haxorus
20 Atk Life Orb Salazzle Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 30-36 (10.2 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 266-316 (90.7 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

:Mandibuzz: W With Nasty Plot, the preferred 4th move slot, you outpace Snarl and will kill it with Overheat
:Rotom-Wash: L You obviously lose to Scarf and Specs, however if the Stall set is carrying Thunderbolt > Hydro Pump as its attacking move, you can win with Nasty Plot
:Sawk: W you beat Band AND scarf assuming they dont run Earthquake on Scarf
:Whimsicott: W should be obvious enough you click sludge wave

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: W Fake out into sludge wave, and then overheat, which covers them disabling the sludge wave. If they encore they ofc die to another sludge wave
:Avalugg: W Fake out to break sturdy Overheat dead
:Diggersby: W Fake out into Overheat and you beat Band, you don't even die to a 252+ banded quick attack after Life Orb Recoil.
:Hydreigon: L Draco and you lose
:Kommo-o: W a VERY VERY cool W, as you tank a clanging scales and can proceed to Nasty Plot into Sludge Wave. Think about this so far, this beats most Fairy Types, Steel Types, as well as super relevant Dragon Types like non scarf Haxorus and Kommo-o, pretty nuts
140 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salazzle: 229-270 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 382-450 (115.4 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Kyurem: L yeah you don't KO it and itll KO you back no matter the set. I guess you beat Parting Shot Stall tho
:Rillaboom: W fake out into overheat gg
:Rotom-Heat: N You only beat the Stall set, and lose to the more common Scarf and Specs variants.
:Snorlax: L Band and Stall beat you, unless the Stall isn't using Rock Tomb and you Crit with a +4 sludge wave, so honestly its not that bad
:Togekiss: N Pretty simple, you beat Scarf if you dont get flinched, or it misses, and you of course beat Specs and Defensive, so a pretty good matchup
:Zeraora: L Its too quick and you die to Plasma Fists

B Rank
:Aegislash: W Overheat haha
:Celebi: N You beat specs and anything else that isn't Scarf
:Centiskorch: W you only lose to Knock off, since they knock off your life orb and you don't 2hko, the play here is to not Fake out t1 and just sludge twice
252+ SpA Life Orb Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Centiskorch: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148+ Atk Choice Band Centiskorch Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 206-243 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Chandelure: L resists both stabs
:Cinderace: N You lose to Sub Leichi Pyro Ball, but beat the recently more popular Band Set, assuming they dont run Zen headbutt(which honestly is now probs the best 4th move option to specifically beat Salazzle)
:Conkeldurr: L too bulky bro
:Darmanitan: N You beat that new wisp set, lose to scarf obviously
:Durant: N u beat that nasty entrainment set, but lose to banded durant... if it hits
:Gastrodon: L you die to Scald
:Incineroar: W They dont do enough damage and you win with Nasty Plot into Sludge Wave, furthermore you can out fake out their potential fake out and you dont get an intimidate drop, as well as you can't get Taunted
:Rhyperior: L obvious
:Silvally: N you beat both Poison and Steel, which are the most common, but obviously lose to Water.
:Steelix: W You beat Banded Steelix, but have to deal with the fact that if Torment lix clicks Protect t1, you lose assuming no Encore...
:Tyranitar: L

B- Rank I got lazy I dont need to explain these really cmon
:Bewear: W
:Blastoise: L
:Dracozolt: L
:Duraludon: W if specs L if scarf
:Excadrill: W if sub/band L if scarf (so you win most of the time)
:Gardevoir: L if the more common Scarf, W if anything else
:Gengar: L
:Golisopod: L
:Goodra: L
:Grimmsnarl: W unless banded sucker in which case you die
:Gyarados: L
:Keldeo: L
:Milotic: L
:venusaur: W

Lastly, I jsut wanna say that Salazzle can run that Protect/Sub disable encore set and cover some of the matchups it struggles with, but by far this Offensive Salazzle is the best!
 

pazza

I COULD BE BANNED!
1590978430055.png

:dracovish:
A -> A+ or S-

this mon is super good because of how strong and versatile it is. spdef vish can beat both sylv and prima, scarf can beat darmz and dragapult and less viable sets like rock tomb can beat crustle and sawk. dracovish is just super strong and can run viable sets to destroy most of the tier.

:silvally:
B -> B+
its really versatile since it can run like 7 different viable sets and different typing too so you really can't guess and its a really good lure for a lot of pokemon. most viable set is the Poison-type stall set which beats the fairies and physical attackers.


:Gardevoir:B- -> B or B+
:Whimsicott: A- -> B
:crustle: A -> A+
:dragapult: A+ -> A
:Sawk: A- -> A
 
Last edited:
Heyo, I decided today for some inexplicable reason that it would be a good idea to go through mons ranked from S to B- and explain my reasoning on why I think what I think about them. Most of these reasons will be pretty short because I don't want this to take absolutely forever. Blue is rise and red is drop.

S
:Primarina: Bulky, godlike typing, and strong. Also can run like w/e item it wants w/ very little opportunity cost this mon is bonkers.

S-
:Darmanitan-Galar: Kills absolutely everything, all that holds it back from S imo is the massive opportunity cost between scarf and band.

:Sylveon: Raise to S. Absolutely bonkers. You have to A. be a resist or B. kill sylv before it moves to beat Sylv which is much easier said than done. The tier lacks good steels (some that can be finessed by babiri) or poisons, shown by the fact people are using Silvally. Sylv shreds anything and everything in its path it's a large part of the tier and its weaknesses are not that hard to cover up when you can cover them up w/ other mons that are very good such as Crustle and Pult. It also isn't completely linear having plenty of great options such as Babiri, Specs, and Pixie Plate w/ QA. Crazy mon.

A+
:Dragapult: Curse is brazy and honestly I think its worthy of this rank alone on the fact the Sylv/Pult beats like the entire meta zzz

A
:Crustle: Rise to A+. This mon can run like 500 different items all of which are good and none of which have a substantial opportunity cost. While in recent times people are finding ways to cheese this mon I think that can be said for everything above it as well, Shell Smash+Rock Wrecker is so inherently good and the boon of having basically w/e item you want is massive.

:Dracovish: "No! You can't just ohko my Max/Max Fairy type thats not fair! Band Fishious Rend go brrrr." -Video Game Forest. New SpDef set is cool but I have the same issue w/ it that I have w/ Darm but to a much greater deal, huge opportunity cost between sets.

A-
:Arcanine: It's still fine but not worthy of anything higher it has plenty of weaknesses and I think stall is wack as hell despite having merits.

:Corsola-Galar:
Drop to B+. It's a good stall mon w/ no anti-stall measures in a meta where that's not appreciated. I would rather use literally any other stall mon they usually perform and fit better on most teams.

:Corviknight: Decent stall mon that can Taunt other stall mons and beating Sylv (most of the time) is nice. It's kinda akward sometimes but I feel that fits the description of a lot of A- mons.

:Haxorus: Rise to A. Taunt+Haban is so incredible and it doesn't hurt that scarf is still super clean. It's a Haban dragon that 100% beats other Haban dragons because of Unnerve. Band is also ludicrously strong being able to sometimes cheese a kill vs less bulky Sylv/Prims/Crustles. Opportunity cost between sets is p big but regardless this mon still finds a way to dominate.

:Mandibuzz: Corv w/ a typing that is usually way worse but I think its speed tier is just incredibly nice.

:Rotom-Wash: Specs and stalltom are still pretty good but Sylv and Pult being on every team hurts.

:Sawk: Strong sturdy mon, 'nuff said.

:Whimsicott:
Drop to B. Poison coverage is abundant as well as Darm/Sylv/Pult running rampant this thing is increasingly difficult to justify running the only world in which this ranking makes sense is if you view it as having every single berry at once as well as GSC evs.

B+
:Aromatisse: Deceptively frail, it's not nearly as bulky as it needs to be sometimes it can get cheesed through struggle damage and you also have cases of it simply not being bulky enough to live hits. Even w/ optimal usage this mon is still B+.

:Avalugg: Sturdy mon that is too easy to cheese for me to consider it any higher, overall solid tho.

:Diggersby: It's just incredibly strong and a solid speed tier, anything slower should die but it's not Darm or Sylv levels of strength where you can just kill anything that doesn't resist you.

:Hydregion: Haban is very nice I just find it difficult to justify over Haxorus sometimes.


:Kommo-o: Rise to A-. Very bulky Haban dragon that also can beat non-QA sylv (potentially QA as well you just need to be flames) this mon is very nice for beating a majority of physical threats and it has some neat techs that expand its hitlist. If losing to the top 3 was enough to rank a mon lower Pult would not be in A+.

:Kyurem: Rise to A-. Scarf is so good for reliably beating Pult, Togekiss, Gard, Gastro, most dragons and even being able to beat non-specs non-WP prim + a very unlucky Sylveon. I initially thought this mon was dogshit so I'd recommend labbing it yourself before taking my word.

:Rotom-Heat: Rise to A-. It's Rotom-Wash but it beats Sylv. Typing is way better for specs and while wash stalltom is arguably better specs rotom-h is just so clean it easily deserves A- imo.

:Snorlax: Rise to A-. Lax at A- is a crime. Stall and band are both super good and is a case of a mon where the two sets are so different you have to predict on preview. Picking wrong is grounds for immediate loss, of course, w/ exceptions but I feel this really a case where usage is 50/50 and not easy to decipher from preview. Chople counter is also nice for luring in big daddy darm.

:Togekiss: Rise to A-. The stall sets are incredible at luring usual checks and basically all the sets that aren't scarf are super good but scarf can cheese wins just by being lucky. Kee+Charm and Amnesia are very annoying and then you have stall-breaking TWave NP shit that can very easily cheese stall mons. Cheese incarnate basically.

:Zeraora: Lacking in every area to be any higher, it really only needs a small push in some stat areas and it'd be exceptional but for now its strength and bulk fall short of what it needs.

B
:Aegislash: Very mid ranking for a very mid mon.

:Celebi: Specs is so nice, beats most stall shit and also nice for being a Trick mon that beats Gastro. In addition nuking Prim is nice.

:Centiskorch: Inferior band arcanine except it can beat prim.

:Chandelure: Bulky specs and scarf are both fine but very lackluster. Have not found any success w/ stall/Ballon.

:Cinderace: Use literally any other fire type please.

:Conkeldurr: Bulky and strong, special bulk leaves smth to be desired and it's not strong enough to make up for its awful speedtier.

:Darmanitan: So strong but movepool is bad unless you want to beat stall mons Arcanine is better.

:Durant: Entrainment is quite a nice lure but it's still very frail and typing is kinda wack for an offensive mon.

:Gastrodon: Good stall mon in a meta where stall mons are bad BUT it can't get Tricked so that's nice. Bulk is lackluster and typing doesn't really help at all.

:Incineroar:
Drop to B-. Arcanine exists and I think purely based on a much better speed tier does much better in this meta.

:Rhyperior: Bulky to kingdom come and Solid Rock is super nice for living some shit you shouldn't but it's super awkward lacking in every area that isn't bulk.

:Rillaboom: Lost a huge reason to use it w/o mimi being in the tier and while its still fine it should be chillin' down here w/ whimsi soon enough.

:Silvally:
Rise to A-. The best poison type we have currently and this thing is lure heaven. Covering everything this mon does is impossible but I think it's fair to say it's a jack of all trades; master of none type deal.

:Steelix: Beats 2/3 of the goats (assuming no Babiri) so that's nice but its other mus are mid af.

:Tyranitar: Bulk is excellent but typing and speed are abysmal for Ttar.


B-
:Bewear: Physical tank but fire weaknesses is p bad, reason to use this over Diggers/Darm is beating Diggers/Darm.

:Blastoise: GARBAGE mon stats are wack

:Dracozolt: With perfect accuracy, this mon is top 5 but as is it relies on hitting on too many hits overtime in certain MUs and in general it's just very mid I would never use it over alternatives.


:Duraludon: Super weird but its carried by typing and decent enough speed tier to get off STAB Steel Beam sometimes but it's still very weak and its SpDef is godawful.

:Gardevoir: Rise to B+. Trace helps an already decent mon become noteworthy. One of the better anti-stall measures especially considering it's one of the few that can beat Whimsi and Sturdies. CM is also clean for beating Sylv and Prim if you can l2p.

:Gengar: Strong poison type but it's frail as all hell and not strong enough to justify scarf.

:Golisopod: Quite nice for quite a few physical threats but typing is quite wack and it relies on berries for a lot of MUs so very mid.


:Goodra: Rise to B. Incredibly difficult to kill it wins so many MUs purely off bulk and Acid Spray. Super useful movepool as well this thing is def worthy of B.

:Grimmsnarl: Another mon w/ decent potential held back by abysmal stats.

:Gyarados: Hard carried by movepool and decent stats.

:Keldeo: Hard loses to a majority of the top mons and the stuff that it does beat is not important enough to make up for that.


:Milotic: A majority of the time Gastro/Prim does its job better.

:Venusaur: Nice typing so it can use its movepool and bulk to decent success.

Expect a follow-up post for C mons but this already took forever so stay tuned.
 
It's time for the moment you've all been waiting for!

:Cinderace:Cinderace B => higher (A-/A)

Libero is out. Rejoice. Libero makes Cinder's old sets in Band and Lechi even better, and also enables the usage of new jawn such as Scarf and Taunt/ Bulk Up sets. Scarf is fantastic, as the rabbit now beats common variants of the 3 top mons in the tier (Kebia Prim and Reversal Zen Darm can beat A standard 252/252 Scarf Cinder).
 
here are some fun noms before dlc gets dropped:

:snorlax: B+ to A-
If you've seen me play before, you know I love lax. IMO Snorlax is the best stall mon in the meta given its insane bulk and pp on moves. Chople berry gives it coverage against its one weakness and counter can take out almost every choiced physical attacker. Band lax is also common as stab giga hits hard and lax has an insane diversity of moves.

:Charizard: C- to C
Underrated lure mon that DC3 and I were able to take advantage of this week. Solar Power zard is actually a threat and does a lot better than I thought against some of the higher-ranked mons. Even other bulky zard sets do well, as the only thing holding it back from being higher is its bad typing.

some sauce
BLESS ME ALLAH (Charizard) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 100 Def / 184 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Belly Drum
- Acrobatics


:Espeon: C- to C
Tried to use this mon in both of my tournament games this week as prim/sylveon bait, but couldn't find success :blobsad:. Anyways, magic bounce is heat and espeon's good base speed makes it a fire wall-breaker when paired up with fake tears. Stall is also viable to some extent as that it's what most people expect when they see it. Lack of natural bulk keeps it from going higher.

more sauce
$w (Espeon) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 120 HP / 160 SpA / 112 SpD / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Fake Tears
Espeon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 220 HP / 48 SpD / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Morning Sun
- Charm

:Quagsire: D to C
Built this for Kaif and it turned out to be heat. Unaware is kinda slept on as you basically just win if the physical attacker doesn't have taunt, plus this walls some very popular mons in the meta rn.
Quagsire @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Icy Wind
- Counter
- Recover
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Quagsire: 346-408 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Quagsire: 232-274 (59 - 69.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Quagsire: 141-166 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Quagsire: 288-340 (73.2 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Ribombee: UR to C-
Surprised that this isn't ranked given the bee's high speed. Choice Specs is pretty optimal for this to OHKO against dragons and I even made a set where the bee can take on some prims. Also, trick can potentially any stall mons and bug buzz can hit through sub.
Ribombee @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 144 HP / 180 SpA / 136 SpD / 48 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Trick
 
Last edited:
Roserade got mentioned in passing by Nalei already but deserves a bigger post.

Roserade @ Wide Lens
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Substitute

Roserade @ Choice Specs
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Dazzling Gleam
- Extrasensory

Wide Lens subseed is basically the closest thing to a real speedtrap the meta has rn (no, butterfree does not count). Put something to sleep with 82% accuracy, sub up, repeat if they woke up and leech seed if they didn't. 125 special attack, 105 special defense and 90 speed are actually pretty good, even if your ability is useless.

You're notably a very hard counter to primarina, even weakness policy icy wind, assault vest, or the kebia prims that'll be popping up a week after cinderace hits. Sylveon is similarly destroyed, with substitute eliminating the yawn rng. You actually do crazy well versus arcanine bc sludge bomb+leech is a 2hko and it can't really threaten you with overheat (after breaking one sub, it deals 62 at most).

Other matchups are pretty obvious: anything slow or poison-weak.

The other viable set is specs, which is cool but not that cool. It is mostly notable for beating a couple mons that slightly outspeed you and would beat subseed (hydreigon, keldeo), as well as the stuff that is naturally good versus subseed (hatterene). You also eliminate chance from a couple matchups. That said, you also start losing to everything you can't hit hard enough, which is kind of harsh with grass/poison/fairy/psychic coverage, so maybe don't use this.

All in all, roserade should be more than worthy of C or C+, being a useful grass/poison type that can be a general nuisance to bulkier teams. It doesn't have venusaur's bulk or movepool, but outperforms it in some categories, and seems fitting one or two ratings below it.
 
Last edited:
Seeing the previous post, I would like to add another set to Roserade I'm actually just angry that Here Comes Team Charm didn't say Rosa Raid Shadow Legends.

:roserade:

Roserade @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Def / 128 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Dazzling Gleam/Leech Seed

This set, as the EVs suggest, trades offensive capability in exchange for resilience.

Comparison against the VR:
:primarina: Win. No explanation needed
:darmanitan-galar: Obvious loss
:sylveon: Sylveon needs at 3 hits (Fake tears + 2 Hyper voices) for sets not running Hyper Beam or Mystical Fire. Max SpA Pixie Plate Hyper Beam kills after 1 Fake Tears. Mystical Fire is a roll in favour of Roserade unless max SpA after a Fake Tears. Roserade will kill Sylveon with 2 Sludge Bombs almost always (the exception being an Assault Vest Max SpDef set for some reason)

:dracovish: Roserade wins unless Dracovish gets a max roll on Banded Fishious Rend. (6.3% chance) Otherwise Roserade Wins
:dragapult: Loses against Specs set. Win against Sub Disable set by starting with Sludge Bomb
:crustle: Loses against almost all sets
:arcanine: Loses to a fire STAB
:corsola-galar: Dazzling Gleam Loses, but Leech Seed tends to win
:corviknight: Can't hurt Corviknight
:haxorus: Scarf Haxorus is one of the Pokemon this set is designed for. Win with Dazzling Gleam after living jolly Scarf Outrage
:mandibuzz: Wins if Mandibuzz does not decrease your SpA or raise its SpDef, and Expert Belt is run (Dazzling Gleam does half HP on average, Sludge Bomb does slightly less) Loses if Mandibuzz just spams roost if Roserade is without Leech Seed
:rotom-wash: Leaf Storm does good damage. Win
:sawk: This is one of the pokemon whose matchup against Roserade depends on Sleep Turns. Close Combat barely 2HKOs, so 2 turns of sleep works. However, Leech Seed into Leaf Storm allows Roserade to live the 2HKO and KO back
:whimsicott: ...

:aromatisse: Sludge Bomb into any damaging move kills
:avalugg: Leech Seed wins against bulkier sets. Sleep Powder for 2 turns wins regardless. Loses against Choice Band Max Attack sets 81.3% of the time. 3 hits from Icicle Spear also kills if Avalugg is banded.
:diggersby: Loses, although sets in the above post win against Band
:hydreigon: Wins against any set that is not Specs
:kommo-o: Win with Dazzling Gleam. Loses if Kommo-o has bulletproof and Roserade does not have Dazzling Gleam
:kyurem: Loses. Not much of a chance here
:rotom-heat: Overheat kills. Non-Overheat sets win with Eerie Impulse
:snorlax: Only way to win is to hope for 3 turn sleep, then Sludge Bomb twice into Leaf Storm
:togekiss: Bad favours for Roserade. Needs to abuse 2 turns of sleep to win against Togekiss, although it they do not get to complain if they get hax. Bulkier Togekisses with Thunder Wave are also hax-dependant
:zeraora: Loses if Zeraora has Outrage or Fake out + Knock Off, unless they sleep for 2 turns. Leech Seed also wins most of the time against Fake Out + Knock Off

There are so many Fire Types in here; it is a loss against all of them. The exception is for slower Pokemon, who may get sleep haxed
Others:
:aegislash: Generally a loss unless Sleep hax
:celebi: Usually a loss. Not even Sleep hax can help here. However, if the Celebi is running a Leech Seed set, Roserade Wins
:conkeldurr: Win with Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm for Choice Band or Flame Orb + Guts Conkeldurr if the latter variant does not have protect. Win with 2 Sludge Bombs + Leaf Storm if they have Assault Vest
:gastrodon: Not even Rindo Berry Max HP Max SpDef Calm can save Gastrodon from this one. However, they win if you miss all of your Leaf Storms :)
:rhyperior: Same as above
:rillaboom: Wins unless they have bright powder and you miss all of your moves
:silvally-water: (Water) Wins unless they have Ice Beam, Max Speed, and you miss the Leaf Storm
:silvally-poison: (Poison) Possible reliance on sleep hax with Leech Seed needed
:silvally-steel: (Steel) Same as above
:steelix: They have a 6.3% chance to OHKO with Banded Heavy Slam. Win against Torment set due to the fact that you do not have a Choice item
:tyranitar: Win unless Choice Band Stone Edge does a big nasty. Loses against Dragon Dance sets unless sleep hax

I'm too lazy for the rest of the things, and need to do my homework fast. Meowstic is messed up on the VR.
I know that this post hits awfully close to the release of DLC 1 and massive tier shifts are probably changing, but I decided to waste my time anyway.

So why not just use Venusaur?

...Yeah just use Venusaur
 
Last edited:
The post that should've been done already:
Nomming Cinderace for A+
(thanks to Krytocon, smely socks, and Potatochan for help/sets)

Cinderace runs a multitude of sets allowing it to match up against nearly every pokemon, with minimal hard counters that would comprimise your team. I'll be focusing on Choice Band, which seems to be the most used set. I've provided a matchup list with the following set versus the VR list, and highlighted in green situations where Cinderace can beat the mentioned mon with other sets. Greninja, who is comprable to Cinderace today, was placed at A+ in ORAS and USUM VR, whilst Cinderace is at A with better matchups and larger capabilities.

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
EVs: 16 HP / 184 Atk / 220 SpD / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Giga Impact

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
EVs: 8 HP / 188 Atk / 224 Def / 88 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Giga Impact

Cinderace @ Life Orb
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Gunk Shot
for the above, the moves are interchangable. Endure, Reversal, and Substitute are all good options. Liechi or Salac Berry covers different matchups based on your needs.

Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Pyro Ball
- Giga Impact

For extra detail about Cinderace and sets: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3656364/post-8488192 (smely socks post)

S Rank
:Primarina: W wins with band gunk shot and spdef invest. kebia loses some matchups if they don't sub t1

S- Rank
:Darmanitan-Galar: L to scarf, but basic scarf Cinderace wins
:Sylveon: W wins with gunk shot or giga impact

A+ Rank
:Dracovish: L for reasons we should all know by now, but bulk up endure reversal salac wins.
:Dragapult: L Dragapult resists Cinderace's strong attacks, and can disable / draco meteor on sucker punch. Cinderace wins with taunt sucker punch (although loses pretty much every other matchup). There is also the "anti-pult" set which is protect/sucker/endure/taunt with liechi.

A Rank
:Cinderace: is Cinderace
:Crustle: L Crustle can press counter for a victory, but any ace with bulk up / sub / double kick wins.

A- Rank
:Arcanine: L, but bulk up + counter + giga can beat.
:Corsola-Galar: L with cursed body, wisp, or disable itself, but any taunt set wins.
:Corviknight: W fire move go brrrr
:Haxorus: L haxorus can OHKO with earthquake. You can EV Cinderace to beat hax though.
:Mandibuzz:
L, but taunt t1 into 2x HJK wins.
:Rotom-Wash: W with High Jump Kick.
:Sawk: L loses to counter, but non-choiced sets/counter-less Sawk are winning matchups.
:Snorlax: L, but wins with endure bulk up reversal.
:Whimsicott: W generally with pyro ball, but can lose to lefties. It can easily use Flare Blitz instead though and retain the same matchups except Bewear

B+ Rank
:Aromatisse: W gunk shot
:Avalugg: L a decent counter to all the standard Cinderace sets, but air balloon blast burn wins
:Diggersby: W high jump kick, usage1630 showed that only 3.475% of sets are scarf, and even then, scarf ace just wins.
:Hydreigon: W high jump kick
:Kommo-o: L, but sub + bulk up + zen headbutt beats.
:Kyurem: W the spdef invest allows it to tank earth power / draco meteor, and Cinderace outspeeds specs.
:Rotom-Heat: W high jump kick
:Togekiss: L to scarf, but scarf ace wins
:Zeraora: L to fake out plasma fists, but the scarf set and the "anti-haxorus" set win.

B Rank
:Aegislash: W see: steel typing
:Celebi: W obv
:Centiskorch: W with giga impact
:Chandelure: L all resisting attacks, but sucker + taunt can beat all sets
:Conkeldurr: L to standard sets, but counter or bulk up + zen wins
:Darmanitan: L with eq/rock slide, but endure salac wins, or you could protect to scout wisp.
:Durant: W /weak durant
:Gardevoir: W gunk shot
:Gastrodon: L with the spdef set above, but ada giga impact wins, in addition to taunt/sub.
:Incineroar: W high jump kick
:Rhyperior: W 184 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 283-334 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 274-324 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
:Rillaboom: W im not explaining this
:Silvally: W against Silvally-Water (giga impact), steel (super effective move),
and Poison (this MU is dicey, but rolls dictate double pyro ball wins most of the time (59-67.9 and 27.9-35.1). You could just run taunt anyway for a win.
:Steelix: L to torment, but any non choiced set wins
:Tyranitar: W HJK even beats chople iirc

B- rank (shoutouts Krytocon)
:Bewear: W Pyro Ball go brrr
:Blastoise: L to standard sets, but the bulk up lorb set wins.
:Dracozolt: L Scarf set can bulk for scarf cindy and ko with outrage. The way to beat this mon is with endure/salac/reversal.
:Duraludon: W You live scarf draco most of the time and ko back with HJK.
:Gengar: L Specs sludge wave kills but scarf cindy wins vs all gengar variants.
:Golisopod: L Too bulky. Bulk Up + Bounce wins however.
:Goodra: L Counter/Specs kills but you can win with Bulk Up Lorb vs non-specs.
:Grimmsnarl: W Gunk Shot.
:Gyarados: W 2hko most Gyara variants with Gunk Shot. Also electro ball is a guaranteed win.
:Keldeo: L Outspeeds and nukes. However scarf beats specs keld but scarf keld beats scarf cind.
:Milotic: L If they recover t1 they win because gunk/hjk dont do enough and they just stall out for a miss. Agility + Electro Ball wins.
:venusaur: W bruh

In conclusion, Band Cinderace, with the right EVs, beats half of the higher VR list, and its diversity allows it to beat every pokemon (with the exception of 2-3).
 
Last edited:

Alakazam

birds are singing, flowers are blooming
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Announcement

Outside of potentially the remaining two starters (Rillaboom Inteleon), the VR council is gonna chill until DLC (June 17th), due to the fact that the metagame will completely shift at that point. A bit pointless to make major shifts that will likely be made irrelevant very soon.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 0)

Top