Other 1v1 Tournament Policy Discussion Thread

I wasn’t sure whether or not I should write a post on this, but I figured I might as well share where I stand on the matter.

Both torterraxx’s and zio’s posts sum up my thoughts on this situation pretty well but I’d like to reiterate the fact that DPP 1v1 has pretty much reached a point of no return, where it’s quite frustrating to both build and play (nothing you can do about gen mechanics but they’re bad nonetheless). I’ve never experienced the tier firsthand obviously but I’ve teamed with and talked to people who have over the last year and the response was overall negative.

I guess I’m mainly writing this because PL is one of the most competitive 1v1 tournaments and I want it to stay that way and I’m afraid that, given the increasing disinterest in the tier and the lacking pool depth (you could make the same argument for BW but that’s actually a playable tier and I’m sure a new player would rather pick that up over DPP) it would just become a “sack slot” for some teams.

I am therefore in favor of Bo5o1 Multigen > DPP as it’s a format that’s been proven to work and that will undoubtedly see competitive series between good and all-round players (yes, DPP would still be in it, but at least it’ll only be 1 game). Bo3of5 Multigen is way too many games and it would burn out players fast, SS4 is… Yeah, I won’t even comment on this one
 
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DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hello, I'm going to share my own opinion, while raising some questions that should be answered for future posts if any side want to defend their points.

So first of all, I'm still neutral - and I'm going to read both sides arguments to make my mind in the end. I see that both slots have their pros and cons. Concerning the DPP slot, last year's team tours have shown me that some players are really not enjoying being slotted in that slot specially for the entirety of the tournament which can create some slotting problems - adding to that the rarity of other DPP mains or players plus the lack of interest when it comes to learning DPP, which is the main point that separates it from BW as previously stated by Denis. It is true that BW pool doesn't look too hot. But people are willing to learn and play BW for this team tournament cause it's a fun and developed metagame. So the problem in my eyes isn't the lack of players but the willingness to learn the gen when it comes to filling the pool. It wouldn't be fair to say that the pool of players is deserted as there's still some people that enjoy building or playing DPP. Removing it as a playable gen from future team tours would be unfair to them.
  • Will keeping DPP create a burden on managers when it comes to drafting?
  • Will new players be willing to learn DPP if their team needs it?
  • If the answer above is no, will the pool of players be sufficient so every team can have a chance to get a DPP player? (*A good manager wouldn't forget a slot when it comes to planning, but is it possible for every manager to be able to make a plan with different DPP players, or even make a plan with people willing to learn DPP)
As shown above, people are interested in the Bo5o1 slot to replace DPP, so I think we have the 8th slot will be decided between these two. However, I do believe there's some questions to answer when it comes to Bo5o1:
  • Why are we keeping DPP in it if we think it is stagnant?
  • Would that not create conflict and hurt other slots competitive aspect? Say the best player migrating from SS Bo7 or even from other gens (SM, ORAS, BW...) to Bo5o1 hurting the pool in the gens.
  • Would having a Bo5o1 slot create a burden when it comes to drafting? Is keeping bo7, bo5o1, and other pools in mind all at once too much?
These questions are what comes to mind when I'm trying to look at both sides, and answering these questions when formulating arguments is a good starting point to reach the conclusion. I will be reading answers carefully and will try to express my opinion when I make up my mind.

Thank you for keeping it civil, and informative till now! Enjoy!
 
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Trashuny

Banned deucer.
I was writing this before I saw DEG’s post, this does not address that. Just writing my opinions.
Glad to see this discussion happening. I support replacing Gen 4 with Multigen for quite a few reasons. One of my main reasons is something I do not think a lot of people have thought about, which is gen 4’s lack of future. When Gen 9 comes out, gen 4 will be the first to be replaced. With the currently unsatisfactory state of the tier, I do not think it is worth keeping around right now, just from a logical sense with no opinions about the tier. Many gen 4 players have stated their problems with the current state of the tier, so why should we continue to play a tier almost nobody likes if it is going to be removed later anyway?

But I have played and built the tier, and I feel like I have done so because of a lack of enthusiasm and players in the tier. In gen 4, I feel like I have had to pick up the slack and fix a problem that would not really exist if gen 4 was replaced. To give another example, I think in the 1v1pl, zio had to do the same. His very expensive gen 4 player struggled to win, and he had to play gen 4 instead of swsh very late in the tour. When we were scheduling in the semifinals tiebreak, both of us discussed in PMs how much we disliked playing and building the tier. I think this type of situation probably exists in Gen 4 the most. Disliking a tier from a distance is not problematic of course, but playing and building the tier has in the past 2 team tournaments become my problem when I would love to, as zio puts it, avoid the tier “like the plague”. Playing gen 4 in the 1v1pl was truthfully the most stressed I have ever been playing pokemon. I think when it is not one player repeatedly outplaying the other, it is a jank, RNG-prone, boring, and hard to teambuild generation.

I think multigen would be a good replacement because many 1v1 players, including myself, have been able to learn and succeed in multiple metagames. It’s not like older generations of OU, where there are deep intricacies and seemingly endless mechanics & techniques to learn about. Once you learn what’s good in a generation of 1v1, it’s not that difficult to figure out your approach to the tier and start playing. You can even apply things from one generation to another. A tier whose players have shown to be great at multiple generations actually would be Gen 4. People like Jabiru, Jamez, Euphonos, & others are clearly great players even once they leave gen 4. The format of the seeded tour worked out very nicely, and in my opinion is anything but “noncompetitive”. Having one game of Gen 4 when it’s not represented elsewhere in the tournament is really not a big issue. The point of the generation is to test skills and fundamentals across multiple generations, not perfectly align with what is being played in the current premier league. Rosa Expecting to be able to put in a sub and use sample teams to great success is just ridiculous. There are some amazing 1v1 players who could make that slot very exciting. It really seems like people are defending the status quo just to do so.

I think gen 4 is a bad tier that will barely, if at all, get fixed by something like a Shaymin ban. At this point in the tier, it seems like we are just suspecting things just to try to make the tier good, and ultimately failing each time. Goodbye to Togekiss & Machamp, but a Cresselia or Shaymin ban would do almost nothing to improve the tier in a significant way, in my opinion.

I think that as a player of gen 4, we should get rid of the headache that is this tier in the 1v1pl. I do not know if I think it should be replaced in the World Cup too, the shorter format of that tournament makes it less of a headache, but we can discuss that when it comes closer. People like Waylaid and DenisTheMenacre may not be experienced gen 4 players, but them speaking out ultimately shows how much of a burden gen 4 is on the 1v1 community. I would love to see a team tournament without gen 4. The tier will be probably removed when gen 9 comes around, so why not remove it now?
 
Hello, player of every single gen ever, former manager, top player and multigen seeded hoster and winner here.
My stance is that we should replace DPP with Multigen Bo5o1. After experiencing it first-hand, DPP has been extremely frustrating to build, play and spectate, and I can speak for experience from my previous team tournaments. In World Cup 4 I had to build every single DPP team that was used in that tournament, and we had to slot in Tom842, since South Europe, a team that has historically had one of the best rosters, did not have anyone nearly qualified to play or build the tier. In PL5, after buying Gym Socks as our main DPP player, both me and zio have had to sacrifice ourselves out of our slots to play DPP, and this isn't due to planning oversight, we simply had to make-do because the player pool did not physically have the DPP players to back up the existence of the slot: you can see a similar situation in the Castelia City Catgirls who had to slot a complete newbie in DPP (trashuny, who as of my knowledge dislikes dpp nowadays) because Jabiru did not want to play in it for most of the season; and also in the Godspeed Scolipedes who had to cycle between three different players and ended up having to slot a player that had never played a tournament game either, in deciding weeks of the season. The other teams who didn't have DPP problems in this fashion had to spend an unholy amount of money on it. The Regalias, Rhyperiors and Slakings spent a whopping 17.5k on their dpp slot each, the only exception being poliwraths and porygons since their dpp slots were playing managers, both of which costed more than 10k.

Now, I wanted to dedicate this section to some math! Since I was brought to attention to an insane data: DPP has been the most expensive slot in PL because of how fucking dry it is, managers being forced to spend insane amounts on it.
This is the average price of players that played DPP in the first few weeks (even tho some didnt play it for the entire season, these were the players that were planned to, and that were expected to do good in it)
DPP: Yami 10.5k + Jabiru 9.5k + Synonimous 17.5k + Euphonos 10.5k + Gym Socks! 15k + 187 Fan 17.5k + Inkreativ 17.5k + SoulWind 11k = 109k / an average of 13.6k per team
For comparison, this is the Bo7 pool, the so called "most competitive" pool in the tournament.
SS Bo7: tears 8k + Mishlef 4.5k + Bopher 11k + 19K DOGKNEES + DenisTheMenace 20.5k + Here comes team Charm! 12k + Nalei 18.5k + SiceXV 15k = 108.5k an average of 13.5k per team
This is insane, that managers have to pay more for DPP than they do for the bo7 pool, and as you can see there is no cheap alternative. Trashuny as a 3k sub does not like dpp, yash was attempted as a sub despite his lack of both experience and results and in fact went negative both in PL and WC, 413X was allowed to play simply because he is a person that wants to play dpp, despite being a player with 0 results or showings ever! its crazy.
I didn't do this for pl4 cause I cba but I'm sure it's a similar result, I remember Synon going for fucking 21k or whatever.

After the anti-dpp banter, some points in favor of Multigen Bo5o1. The format was created in seeded tour which has been running for two years now, with no complaints or hiccups. It's one of the most liked tournaments reaching very high signup numbers, more than any other individual unofficial, even the SS startup tournaments. The biggest complaint I've heard from everyone when talking about the format is that it somehow "isn't competitive" because of switching around within generations. I strictly do not comprehend this consideration, since it's still a Bo5, which is the same amount of games as any other tier, it simply rewards over-all 1v1 knowledge and multiple generation knowledge more than knowledge in a single tier. And Multigen Seeded has been proven to have been very competitive year after year. In the first edition the top 8 was composed by me (winner), ggopw (finalist), waylaid (semis), 187 fan (semis), Aliss, neomon, hctc, dc3; every single one of these is a good player and it is difficult to argue otherwise. Look back at round 3 and you can see that it was still filled with very good players: jabiru ryy kaif smely eblurb akuma sice; mubs. Not a single random/bad player made it past round 2 (except mubs). Similar situation this year, with seeded currently in finals with Potatochan vs Close (fire fucking final if you ask me). The format is definitely competitive and will finally allow for a slot where players knowledgeable in multiple gens can shine. There are plenty of said players that have amazing knowledge of multiple gens and never know what tier to play, forced to tier hop between gens: me close potato crucify deg trashuny jab lrxc just to name a few, and there's plenty others that would be able to play multigen and do just fine.

Now onto the last section, responding to deg's post!
Will keeping DPP create a burden on managers when it comes to drafting?
yes, as I've highlighted, definitely. There's not only a gap in mainers that has to be overcome by stretching year after year, there is simply no new blood worth considering. Even if you look at the most recent DPP Cup, by Round 4 there already is no new player worth trying in my eyes.
Will new players be willing to learn DPP if their team needs it?
Sure, it has happened before, but they are forced, most of them grow into hating it. It is also exceedingly more rare for it to happen than any other tier
If the answer above is no, will the pool of players be sufficient so every team can have a chance to get a DPP player? (*A good manager wouldn't forget a slot when it comes to planning, but is it possible for every manager to be able to make a plan with different DPP players, or even make a plan with people willing to learn DPP)
no, definitely not, it's an issue every year and you can see from the prices, people aren't willing to let go dpp players even at extremely high prices because they have not planned for any backup option (there are none).

Why are we keeping DPP in it if we think it is stagnant?
dpp as a single game slot is easily bearable. This was one of my concerns at the beginning but there is simply no problem with it in my opinion, it reduces all the problems dpp has to a bearable quantity. Building DPP was one of the biggest pains I've ever experienced, but if it's only one team a week it is easily bearable.
Would that not create conflict and hurt other slots competitive aspect? Say the best player migrating from SS Bo7 or even from other gens (SM, ORAS, BW...) to Bo5o1 hurting the pool in the gens.
No, not really. Most of the players that would play multigen already are more of a jolly slot. I wouldn't assign myself, crucify, Potatochan, deg etc. to any pool outright, we're only additions to the slot that our team needs. I was planning to play SM this PL, Potatochan had no idea what tier to play, Close still has no clue what to play, and we are also still able to fill for slots if needed, since multigen is a tier it's much easier to find players for than DPP.
Would having a Bo5o1 slot create a burden when it comes to drafting? Is keeping bo7, bo5o1, and other pools in mind all at once too much?
Absolutely not, especially since the Bo7 and Bo5o1 pool share basically no players in common. The Bo5o1 pool is also not one that is difficult to support, given the multigen nature of it you can have a player from each gen build one extra team a week to add to the bo5o1 slot, which is a non-burden. And it certainly will not prove to be a problem price-wise, given how fucking expensive DPP already is.

As last thing, putting here a proposal to call it "MG Bo5" (MultiGen) for official purposes, since multigen bo5o1 would be ugly in a teamtour matchup and is a sore to write out every time you have to refer to it.
 
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As last thing, putting here a proposal to call it "MG Bo5" (MultiGen) for official purposes, since multigen bo5o1 would be ugly in a teamtour matchup and is a sore to write out every time you have to refer to it.
i think you could argue we could just call it MultiGen, it’s not like we specify that SM is a bo5

EDIT: just realized i have no clue if we actually call it SM Bo5 for official purposes,Ig just keep it consistent
 
ty Potatochan for the very important post

ill try to mention things other people havent already. I agree with Trashuny's and STABLE's posts which say basically everything I would want to say about the flaws of DPP, just a couple things that I want to point out and reiterate. referencing DenisTheMenace's post where he said that he hasn't experienced playing and building but he supports the change from dpp bo5 to multigen. i honestly dont think that not having experience playing and building the tier matters much in this discussion. when it comes to team tournaments where every series matters, having such a consensus (just look at this thread) about a tiers unhealthiness, competitiveness, likability, and lack of enthusiasm surrounding it is just detrimental for all who participate in the tour and the community in general, not just those that play and/or build it. its a team tournament, and one of if not the biggest community events of the year. competitiveness of series (and tbs xd look at what was picked in tb in the last pl) getting marred by dpp is bad. i can also add to his post as someone who as in fact built and played dpp, and though i think the hate is slightly overblown, the tier is definitely bad to build and play, and is just an unhealthy metagame for many reasons (rip cress ban).

enough about dpp though, i want to talk about some arguments against multigen. any notion that multigen is not a competitive format is just wrong, throwing someone random into it with samples is just not gonna be a viable way to win, look at multigen seeded. upsets happened yes but upsets happen in every format. multigen is both prep intensive and not prep intensive. like yeah its prepping 5 gens, but its 1 team of each lol. what i think its gonna be is just hella outpicking and people showing their fundamental skills as a 1v1er which i think will lead to some great series like multigen seeded has had. random 3-0s can happen though still but they happen everywhere. prep isnt completely useless either, just look at stable getting owned by crunch garchomp in seeded (yes team tours are different than individuals its just an example). idt being able to prep for it is a major concern people have but i wanted to address it anyway.

its also worth noting that not having dpp bo5 in this upcoming pl doesnt mean its gone forever, if multigen bombs completely we can just go back to having dpp, but with such an outpouring of support and negative sentiment about dpp i think it should be given a chance. i dont think multigen is perfect, it does still include dpp after all and people will mald losing series bc of the dpp game, but 1 dpp game>a bo5 of it and multigen is cool af so if it wasnt clear already i support multigen being included over dpp in the upcoming 1v1pl.
 

Euphonos

inanod ng mga luha; damdamin ay lumaya.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
I do believe that DPP 1v1, while in a rough place at this moment, can still be salvageable, and with that I believe that it should still remain one of the core generations for 1v1PL. This actually brought me the most recent flashback that my wounds are still fresh that I don't want to happen to this metagame which I surprisingly enjoy despite what other people think.

One of the greatest reasons why I think the DPP metagame didn't get to progress as much as, say, BW, is because DPP 1v1 doesn't have that much tournament representation apart from team tours and the DPP 1v1 Cup. The reason why I brought BW up is because of the BW No Johns Prize tournament wherein someone not a regular of the 1v1 community actually won that tour, and I believe that would've been something that could bring DPP some oomph to the development of that metagame. However, with a lot of us from the council having different commitments whether Smogon-related or real life-related (me having troubles in dealing with OM leadership regarding SwSh Camomons finally getting axed from official OM tour representation - and I am still trying to cope from it, PA having commitments to his real life business, Ink/Fan and Jamez having commitments in school, etc), we have a rather difficult time convening, and as such, we apologize for that. It finally have some discussion in DPP 1v1 when Cresselia got its first suspect all thanks to me bringing up how amazing that Pokemon is after what has happened in 1v1 Classic. While I'm not exactly happy with the direction this has gone through, I am actually pleased that there is discussion; and there gave me optimism DPP can still be changed, and now I'm asking my fellow council members to do some urgent moves already in order to keep the metagame going.

I'm not sold on Bo5 Multi-Gen at the moment despite the Seeded Multigen Tournament being a well-received tournament over the past two years. I'd rather be sold on a Bo3 multi-gen 6v6 metagame in a team tour. I think Bo5 Multi-Gen in a 1v1 setting is rather not ideal for two reasons: you're essentially doing a Bo1 in five generations that you just have to move from generation to generation and feel like nothing happened, and there's still DPP in there in which a Bo5 series is still better than a Bo1 in my opinion. I'd rather let Bo5 Multigen wait for (one or two?) more PL iterations before it gets to take off, and removing DPP 1v1 prematurely from PL iterations gives the impression that you're killing the metagame because you guys already accept the metagame as it is without having given second thoughts about it (whether that's how the council will make moves moving forward, etc etc).

So, here's an outlandish idea for those adamant in axing DPP 1v1 in this iteration of 1v1PL: why not make swift, immediate, and urgent moves to make BDSP 1v1 official, then? I would be more than obliged to get DPP 1v1 axed without any qualms, if that would be the case. [edit: otherwise, I'd still keep DPP 1v1]
 
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Jabiru

formerly ThatCabbageGuy
As someone who would likely play the DPP slot, and potentially the multigen slot should either exist, I figured I'd throw in my two cents. The first thing I'd like to cover is the proposed replacements. First things first, I think any sane person would rather slam their head into a brick wall repeatedly than prep for 15 games a week for like 9+ weeks, please just never let that idea anywhere near PL. SS4 I think probably leads to some lower quality play but I also don't particularly like the idea of reducing variety in slots, I think a large part of what makes team tours great is seeing people shine by learning aspects of different tiers. BDSP 1v1 is not in a fit state for tournament play, and also brings its own issues going forward so I don't really think thats an option.
MG bo5 then to me represents the only viable replacement, and I think it does make a reasonable replacement, its shown to be a fairly competitive tier, there are players who enjoy it and would look towards playing it, even if they so happen to be the loudest players. The one limiting factor for it to my mind is that it does have the highest barrier for entry for a newer player, and subsequently means that barring a 'sack and pray' slot, you are somewhat forced to only slot an established player there. That contrasts with something like DPP where the player pool sits relatively separate from the player pool for the newest generations.

However I do reject the notion that DPP is completely unfit for tournament play, whilst it does have some issues at the moment, I do not believe that a singular state of the metagame is sufficient to judge it upon. With some actual action taken I believe the tier can improve significantly to where it is once again an incredibly fun tier to both build and play. As I am writing this, I know there is some discussion of finally banning Shaymin, something I believe would go some way to improving the tier.

However something that I think could be worth looking into, recognising both the fact that MG has developed into a relatively popular format and that it can be difficult to find a solid number of reliable DPP starters particularly where additional limitations are imposed, is to consider including multigen specifically in World Cup, leaving DPP in PL. The WC format of pre-assigned players mitigates the weakness of drawing away from other slots as there is already an inherent unbalanced nature to the player selection. Its also a tour where far more so than PL, DPP can be a hard slot to fill due to the limitations imposed by regions. This option also opens the door to see how multigen performs and refine tour slots going forward without preemptively nuking a generation based on its current state.
 
However I do reject the notion that DPP is completely unfit for tournament play, whilst it does have some issues at the moment, I do not believe that a singular state of the metagame is sufficient to judge it upon. With some actual action taken I believe the tier can improve significantly to where it is once again an incredibly fun tier to both build and play. As I am writing this, I know there is some discussion of finally banning Shaymin, something I believe would go some way to improving the tier.
You misunderstand the problem with DPP. Whether or not you believe the tier is competitive, it simply does not have the player base to justify its slot in PL. Unlike BW, most players are not interested in taking a gander in DPP due to its difficulty to build and uncompetitive nature, making drafting a player for this slot a nightmare. Thus, the options are drafting one of the expensive mainers (there are not enough for every team to have one), or forcing someone to play the tier, taking away from their enjoyment of PL.

Secondly, the promise of future action to the tier does not redeem its current state; you guys waited too long to take action.
 
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Yo guys,

I will try to say my opinion about it trying to be as schematic as possible. Probably many things I will say have already been said, sorry about it!

1- In my opinion the metagame's current condition reflects the reason why it should be replaced with something more competitive and alluring: building is limited due to an objective lack of pokemon to cover the main metagame threats (you don't solve the metagame by lavishly banning anything that can potentially be broken, especially because it brings to devastating and unforeseeable chain reactions). The game mechanics unfortunately don't help... Currently, personally, building and playing this metagame is not very stimulating because there's a lack of curiosity to try new things, since dpp is currently very limiting in its choices.
2- Player pool: I tried to collect the latest players on the last team tours played and try to make a census of them in view of the PL.
Jamez (main dpp)
Trashuny (occasionally dpp and doesn't like dpp)
Euphonos (main dpp)
zio (hot overall player)
Yami (main dpp)
187 Fan (occasionally dpp, i think main oras and not really active)
Synonimous (main dpp but dead)
Jabiru ( main dpp but i don't know if he want to play DPP)
STABLE (hot overall player)
Inkreativ (main dpp but not really active)
413X (occasionally dpp not significative results)
Mr. Mime fan (main dpp)
LRXC (oraser can play dpp)
Gym Socks! (occasionally dpp, i think he doesn't like dpp)
SoulWind (overall oldgen player but hate dpp)
CrashinBoomBang (dpp but i think he's done with 1v1)
alive (occasionally dpp not significative results)
Poison Adhesive (main dpp)
Tom842 (occasionally dpp not significative results)
ACII (overall oldgen player but banned for next PL)
neomon ( can play dpp but not really active atm)
Urfgurgle ( occasionally dpp not significative results )
Le Creme Brule (Why am I here?)
crucify (hot overall player)
Spitfire (main dpp)

MAIN : Jamez, E#, Yami, PA
MAIN inactive: Syno, Spitfire, Ink, Yash, CBB
Close
Stable
Crucify
Potatochan
Zio
XSC
Jamez
Deg
LRXC
Elo Bandit
Rosa
Joker
Lancer
Leru
Trashuny
Waylaid

3- Multigen would be a nice test and wouldn't exclude DPP out of the tour, and in my opinion would be the most competitive "tier" of the tour, both for the players that could potentially play it in the tour and for the overall skill

I don't think it's necessary to go into much detail of my motivations, would really coincide with what has already been said by people like Denis, Crucify and Stable

So...Multigen bo5o1 > DPP slot is a good idea for me!
 
You misunderstand the problem with DPP. Whether or not you believe the tier is competitive, it simply does not have the player base to justify its slot in PL. Unlike BW, most players are not interested in taking a gander in DPP due to its difficulty to build and uncompetitive nature, making drafting a player for this slot a nightmare. Thus, the options are drafting one of the expensive mainers (there are not enough for every team to have one), or forcing someone to play the tier, taking away from their enjoyment of PL.

Secondly, the promise of future action to the tier does not redeem its current state; you guys waited too long to take action.
So what we need is a Pokemon format where you don't need items or EVs. Where all you do is select 4 moves and a nature

LGPE 1V1 - The format where its the gen 1 Pokemon you love, megas, uses the gen 7 combat mechanics and allows you to feel like you're doing something when doing jack all at the same time :D
 

XSTATIC COLD

Banned deucer.
I agree with Close, if you want to have a competitive and hype PL, put the multigen format.

=> The players who can play Multigen are better than dpp main.

I think we are all tired to see everytime the same mons (shaymin, tar cresselia) and everytime the same players in dpp.. It is outmoded.
Bring a new wave seriously.
 

Rellia

love this view
is a Tiering Contributor
hi I also wanted to express my support for removing DPP.
trashuny and stable had really good posts that explained the status of the tier, so i wont really get into the state of the meta or anything. i believe that DPP is quite uncompetitive, this series in particular is one that i remember being really absurd. obviously this is just one example, but game mechanics are just something that can't be changed.

i also saw the argument of "DPP shouldnt be removed just because its unfun." I really don't agree with this take, if something isn't fun to play, build, or watch, why include it? we're playing an online pokemon battle simulator as a hobby, i think people should enjoy something they do for fun? i do understand that there are DPP mains and enjoyers, but people like james/euph have shown that they can find success in other gens. in my opinion the goal of PL is to be as fun and competitive as possible, and removing DPP would make this better.

as for alternatives, multigen bo5 seems to be the best option. you definitely need understanding of every tier, in terms of matchups, mechanics, and overall metagame knowledge, so its not like anyone random can be slotted in. i think this will lead to some really hype series between the best players and will be pretty fun to watch as a spectator.

basically multigen>dpp, thanks for reading and s/o potatochan and crucify for encouraging me to post on smogon for the first time in a month
 

pqs

Banned deucer.
I abhor DPP 1v1 and would love to see it removed. I guess I’m mainly writing this because PL is one of the most competitive 1v1 tournaments and I want it to stay that way and I’m afraid that, given the increasing disinterest in the tier and the lacking pool depth (you could make the same argument for BW but that’s actually a playable tier and I’m sure a new player would rather pick that up over DPP) it would just become a “sack slot” for some teams. I have played and built the tier, and I feel like I have done so because of a lack of enthusiasm and players in the tier. In gen 4, I feel like I have had to pick up the slack and fix a problem that would not really exist if gen 4 was replaced. Enough about dpp though, i want to talk about some arguments against multigen. One of the greatest reasons why I think the DPP metagame didn't get to progress as much as, say, BW, is because DPP 1v1 doesn't have that much tournament representation apart from team tours and the DPP 1v1 Cup. The reason why I brought BW up is because of the BW No Johns Prize tournament wherein someone not a regular of the 1v1 community actually won that tour, and I believe that would've been something that could bring DPP some oomph to the development of that metagame. I agree with Close, if you want to have a competitive and hype PL, put the multigen format. I also saw the argument of "DPP shouldnt be removed just because its unfun." I really don't agree with this take, if something isn't fun to play, build, or watch, why include it? Cut DPP. Too centralized as a meta around the good mons (despite some variety with in that), inaccessible to new players with too much tech, has maybe 3 decent players left). Seeded has been proven to have been very competitive year after year. In the first edition the top 8 was composed by me (winner), ggopw (finalist), waylaid (semis), 187 fan (semis), Aliss, neomon, hctc, dc3; every single one of these is a good player and it is difficult to argue otherwise. So what we need is a Pokemon format where you don't need items or EVs. I'd rather let Bo5 Multigen wait for (one or two?) more PL iterations before it gets to take off, and removing DPP 1v1 prematurely from PL iterations gives the impression that you're killing the metagame because you guys already accept the metagame as it is without having given second thoughts about it (whether that's how the council will make moves moving forward, etc etc). I strictly do not comprehend this consideration, since it's still a Bo5, which is the same amount of games as any other tier, it simply rewards over-all 1v1 knowledge and multiple generation knowledge more than knowledge in a single tier.

I am therefore in favor of Bo5o1 Multigen > DPP. Let me know if you have any criticisms!
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
I'm not gonna go into the super specifics as to why multigenbo5 should overtake DPP's slot in the next 1v1 PL, I think the collection of posts, well thought out, data supported, passionate posts, above, speak to that enough. I wanna step away really quick from all of those specifics and really amplify and emphasize the fact that multigen bo5 would be way more exciting than DPP. I could end my post there, I really think that that fact alone is enough to replace DPP. People are excited about multigen, and are going out of their way to make posts about it, not just talking and talking in a discord or shitposting in a 1v1 forum. If multigen is more enjoyed by a wider majority of the players and spectators, why the hell don't we have it in. This isn't the judicial system or some shit, we shouldn't just keep DPP in because its been in the last PL's or because its tradition or these imaginary rules or whatever. LIKE WHO CARES. THIS IS A POKEMON SIMULATOR THAT WE PLAY FOR FUN. SO LETS INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF FUN. Multigenbo5 with some of the top 1v1ers, showing their skills across generations. That would be so fucking hype and fresh every week, to build, spectate, play. There are just too many benefits for us to keep DPP in over multigenbo5. Idek who makes the decisions for these tours, I sometimes live in a bubble as most people here know, but whoever does decide if DPP should stay in over multigen, I have zero clue how you would be able to keep DPP in over multigen after taking a deep look at these posts, with all of these people showing a passion NOT for themselves but for the betterment of 1v1, a tier we love, and its most iconic tournament, 1v1 PL.
 
Multigen is competitive. This shouldn't be a talking point, but whatever. Preparing for a series taking place over 5 generations requires an incredible amount of effort. Meta knowledge is tested. Clicking as a fundamental skill is heavily emphasized. You can't just load samples; they're made to cover a plethora of mons on the VR, and generally sacrifice something for it, with some samples being too outdated to be useful (looking at you, BW)- in addition, tournament play should reward putting yourself in the best position possible, and risking awkward matchups is not worth it. Prep is more personal yet more difficult. This all generates a competitive environment and slot, hopefully unsurprisingly.

DPP... can be competitive. Is it better than the alternative? Not particularly. Is it more competitive than the alternative by reasonable metrics? No. Is it more fun than the alternative? Probably not, as many have said, including Synonimous and Trashuny.

If we're going to have a slot inaccessible to new players, it may as well be fun to watch for everyone.
 
I believe that the success of the past 2 Multigen Seeded tours, combined with overwhelming community support, warrants it a slot in 1v1 PL. Still, I have yet to see any counter argument aside from the promise that there is discussion going on between TDs behind the scenes. Given 1v1's past history with overriding community input, I am requesting that we see some kind of response in this thread from TDs with a chance for us to rebuke before a final decision is made. DEG Rosa
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Amidst extensive discourse between myself and DEG behind the scenes, multiple alternatives have been both brought up and considered, namely of which being the idea brought up earlier in this thread to have Multigen in specifically World Cup rather than Premier League, as well as a proposal to drop SM2 instead of DPP. While the initial topic of the thread was about DPP and its place in our team tours (PL in particular was meant to be specified more), discussion between myself and DEG has reached a bit of a standstill, with multiple concerns coming forth regarding the impact that removal from team tours would have on DPP's development as a metagame, what the purpose of PL and WC are as team tournaments, as well as what kind of precedent a move like this would set in place for the future.

Starting off, the main issue that I have with canning DPP from team tours (PL especially) is that you're basically gutting any chance that the meta has to properly develop. When we especially consider that this action is mainly being considered because DPP is in a rough state right now, we have to take into consideration that the removal of these opportunities to develop DPP, in addition to the removal of the increased attention DPP gets as a metagame during team tours, would ultimately result in DPP facing a lot more challenges in getting out of that rough state, as well as the greater community not being able (or inclined) to see any potential change for the better. This would ultimately end up creating a feedback loop of DPP continuing to be hated and excluded from team tours as a result, unless you can get some major changes coming about from Classic and other sporadic individual tours, which are generally a lot more limited in the scope of meta development.

Next, we came to a bit of an impasse with regards to the impact of community support on PL, as well as WC by proxy, as a team tournament. My main thought here was that community support should namely be a more viable metric for decision making when it comes to WC, as it is a tournament intentionally designed around the community, in addition to multiple of the grievances against DPP brought up here applying more notably to WC, where your options for drafting are limited from everyone in each meta's pools of players to just whoever's nearby. As for PL, we couldn't really reach an agreement as to what extent community support should matter in terms of decision making.

Lastly, there were concerns about the precedent that a move like this would set. While changes to slots are nothing new in 1v1's team tournament history, with the removal of 1v1 UU after PL2, the removal of 2v2 after PL3, and the removal of the 2nd ORAS slot as well as the 4th current gen slot after moving to gen 8, a move like this would be the first time a properly developed 1v1 metagame gets removed from team tournaments in its entirety (ie being left with no slots at all). While a slotting squeeze may have been inevitable if we weren't at 10 slot size by gen 9, it is generally more preferable that these decisions be made out of such necessity, rather than arbitrarily preemptively axing a tier before gen 9 is even hinted at by Gamefreak. Beyond just that, setting the precedent of changing slots around mid-gen via community support sets the standard of having these discussions each time a team tour comes around, which is reminiscent of the perennial 2v2 vs DPP discussions that would come around as soon as the tournament discussion threads were posted throughout SM's time as the current generation, which generally resulted in more community splintering than anything of benefit.

Moving on, we now have our alternatives:
  • Canning DPP in only WC. As I mentioned above, WC teams face a lot tighter of a squeeze when it comes to getting someone to handle DPP (really all the oldgens in general) as a result of only being able to draft nearby players. Additionally, as a tournament whose format is designed specifically around the community and its population, it makes more sense that decisions be made by popular agreement here.
  • Dropping the 2nd SM slot instead. This was an idea brought up amidst our discussions that both of us feel could be a solid alternative. With the SM metagame being mostly stagnant beyond a couple new developments after becoming an old gen as well as a growing concern that the tier feels inaccessible to newer players, it stands to reason that we consider cutting back to just 1 slot. This option gives both sides what they want while not taking too much away from SM that it couldn't already accomplish with 1 slot.
With the above in mind, let us know your thoughts! Specifically, we're looking to get an idea of people's thoughts on the differences between PL vs WC as it pertains to slotting, and dropping SM2 vs DPP.
 
the main issue that I have with canning DPP from team tours (PL especially) is that you're basically gutting any chance that the meta has to properly develop
The issue isn't that the metagame isn't developed – rather, it's *overdeveloped*. The viable mons have been explored and teched to such degrees that the centralization present is a result of simply finding the best mons in the metagame. Insane techs like Custap Infernape are relevant and necessary exactly because of the depth of knowledge of usage.

we came to a bit of an impasse with regards to the impact of community support on PL, as well as WC by proxy, as a team tournament
I definitely agree with this point – the more flexible playerbase of PL means more obscure tiers will usually have players to play in them. This is not a particularly clear reason to keep it, however. Just because PL is more suited to have this tier than WC doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed from both. Regardless, solid DPP players will still be valued for their support if multigen is introduced.

there were concerns about the precedent that a move like this would set.
Like you said, a slotting squeeze is inevitable. Acting now gives us room to explore other metas that will be boxed out by newer formats in the future. I disagree with the assumption that these discussions are counterproductive – they offer insight into what tiers people want to play and watch, which allows for better mons.

I'll leave the discussion on the alternatives to others.
 
I believe the best move for the enjoyability of tournaments is to axe DPP in favor of Multigen for the remainder of SS. This change should be reflected across both PL and World Cup.

DPP has been running in tournaments for several years at this point and even with bans has persisted to have the same issues that have been present for years now. While enjoyability is entirely subjective there are common issues many point to. The top tiers are all incredibly diverse in set variety making building frustrating and spectating boring/confusing especially for those not with knowledge on the tier. Mechanics are generally unfit for 1v1 and lead to a lot of nonsense in-game. 1/16 crits, over-reliance on inaccurate moves (Hydro, Draco, Disable, Stone Edge, Blast Burn, etc.), and how good fat mons are leads to a lot of games decided by the dice rather than the players. While luck is a part of the game we play, DPP has an absurd amount of series come down to chance even with the removal of Togekiss/Machamp. While I understand the want to give the tier a proper chance with its new bans in my eyes it had that chance during classic where it was shown its core issues had hardly improved.

The community at large wants to move on from DPP so it’s the natural cut.

DPP should be cut from both tours. I think the tier’s issue are inherent so both tours would be better off without DPP. If you do want tour specific things to point to, PL’s DPP players costing a disproportionately high amount or WCup’s DPP players often being gambles are valid concerns.

SM2 should absolutely stay. SM has been consistently one of the more exciting and competitive tiers. It has a large player pool even if they aren’t exactly the loudest group. I would hate to see it axed to make room for a considerably worse tier.

Multigen is a great format with two competitive tournaments behind it. I and much of the community would love to see it included. It seems like a natural replacement.

I don’t think the precedent this sets is an issue at all. If a tier is disliked by the majority of the community and there’s a viable alternative then it makes sense to make the change. Gen9 to me should be a “cross that bridge when we get there” thing as it’s pointless to discuss decisions that should be left to community input this far in advance.

-The Trip
 

Jabiru

formerly ThatCabbageGuy
The issue isn't that the metagame isn't developed – rather, it's *overdeveloped*. The viable mons have been explored and teched to such degrees that the centralization present is a result of simply finding the best mons in the metagame. Insane techs like Custap Infernape are relevant and necessary exactly because of the depth of knowledge of usage.
I think this is a vast oversimplification of tiering in general. "The centralization present is a result of simply finding the best mons in the metagame", is pretty self-evident, that's literally whag centralisation is (top Mons existing = centralisation). DPP as a tier had historically been pretty underdeveloped, it took a very long time to see something like encore Togekiss to be properly utilised despite how absurd that Mon is, and that similar sets were run on the likes of Clefable. Development in the tier lead to a point where there was a problematic level of centralisation, and you imply that that is inherent to the tier, rather than something that can be addressed through tiering action and we have already seen a huge step in the right direction with the Shaymin ban. (Also surely a huge ban like Shaymin will change the tier a lot, meaning even if the tier was overdeveloped? that would change. Also surely a tier can not be overdeveloped when new threats like Specs Cress, or ddance Ttar are popping up and dominating, surely that indicates development is still occuring?)

Even outside of that, the level of development is nowhere near the likes of SM, and I don't really see how using techs like custap infernape to catch people off-guard shows an inherent issue within the tier. I think looking for new techs to catch out top Mons or lure in some potential checks is a rather large component of 1v1's identity in any generation.
 
Amidst extensive discourse between myself and DEG behind the scenes, multiple alternatives have been both brought up and considered, namely of which being the idea brought up earlier in this thread to have Multigen in specifically World Cup rather than Premier League, as well as a proposal to drop SM2 instead of DPP. While the initial topic of the thread was about DPP and its place in our team tours (PL in particular was meant to be specified more), discussion between myself and DEG has reached a bit of a standstill, with multiple concerns coming forth regarding the impact that removal from team tours would have on DPP's development as a metagame, what the purpose of PL and WC are as team tournaments, as well as what kind of precedent a move like this would set in place for the future.

Starting off, the main issue that I have with canning DPP from team tours (PL especially) is that you're basically gutting any chance that the meta has to properly develop. When we especially consider that this action is mainly being considered because DPP is in a rough state right now, we have to take into consideration that the removal of these opportunities to develop DPP, in addition to the removal of the increased attention DPP gets as a metagame during team tours, would ultimately result in DPP facing a lot more challenges in getting out of that rough state, as well as the greater community not being able (or inclined) to see any potential change for the better. This would ultimately end up creating a feedback loop of DPP continuing to be hated and excluded from team tours as a result, unless you can get some major changes coming about from Classic and other sporadic individual tours, which are generally a lot more limited in the scope of meta development.

Next, we came to a bit of an impasse with regards to the impact of community support on PL, as well as WC by proxy, as a team tournament. My main thought here was that community support should namely be a more viable metric for decision making when it comes to WC, as it is a tournament intentionally designed around the community, in addition to multiple of the grievances against DPP brought up here applying more notably to WC, where your options for drafting are limited from everyone in each meta's pools of players to just whoever's nearby. As for PL, we couldn't really reach an agreement as to what extent community support should matter in terms of decision making.

Lastly, there were concerns about the precedent that a move like this would set. While changes to slots are nothing new in 1v1's team tournament history, with the removal of 1v1 UU after PL2, the removal of 2v2 after PL3, and the removal of the 2nd ORAS slot as well as the 4th current gen slot after moving to gen 8, a move like this would be the first time a properly developed 1v1 metagame gets removed from team tournaments in its entirety (ie being left with no slots at all). While a slotting squeeze may have been inevitable if we weren't at 10 slot size by gen 9, it is generally more preferable that these decisions be made out of such necessity, rather than arbitrarily preemptively axing a tier before gen 9 is even hinted at by Gamefreak. Beyond just that, setting the precedent of changing slots around mid-gen via community support sets the standard of having these discussions each time a team tour comes around, which is reminiscent of the perennial 2v2 vs DPP discussions that would come around as soon as the tournament discussion threads were posted throughout SM's time as the current generation, which generally resulted in more community splintering than anything of benefit.

Moving on, we now have our alternatives:
  • Canning DPP in only WC. As I mentioned above, WC teams face a lot tighter of a squeeze when it comes to getting someone to handle DPP (really all the oldgens in general) as a result of only being able to draft nearby players. Additionally, as a tournament whose format is designed specifically around the community and its population, it makes more sense that decisions be made by popular agreement here.
  • Dropping the 2nd SM slot instead. This was an idea brought up amidst our discussions that both of us feel could be a solid alternative. With the SM metagame being mostly stagnant beyond a couple new developments after becoming an old gen as well as a growing concern that the tier feels inaccessible to newer players, it stands to reason that we consider cutting back to just 1 slot. This option gives both sides what they want while not taking too much away from SM that it couldn't already accomplish with 1 slot.
With the above in mind, let us know your thoughts! Specifically, we're looking to get an idea of people's thoughts on the differences between PL vs WC as it pertains to slotting, and dropping SM2 vs DPP.
This decision will move the problem, not solve it.

Developing a tier is the responsibility of its players, and while adding it to tournaments accelerates that, it shouldn't do so in a way that it burdens other tiers or the tournament itself. Yet, despite this, we are given a suggestion that not only directly hurts a tier with active players, but also directly hurts the tournament itself. Firstly: Why remove SM2? What is the point? Its playerbase is fairly active, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was larger than DPP's by a factor of 9 or 10, so why reduce the amount of players allotted to the tier? Secondly: Why keep DPP? I don't think killing the tier is a concern; it is killing itself, and that is up to its tier leader, council, and playerbase to fix. I can concede that representation in a tournament would certainly help the health of the tier, but I'm not sure that doing so is worth keeping in 2 expensive slots over 1, especially at the cost of a spot for a more competitive tier. I also do understand taking responsibility for its development as both 1v1TD and 1v1TL, but

When we especially consider that this action is mainly being considered because DPP is in a rough state right now, we have to take into consideration that the removal of these opportunities to develop DPP, in addition to the removal of the increased attention DPP gets as a metagame during team tours, would ultimately result in DPP facing a lot more challenges in getting out of that rough state, as well as the greater community not being able (or inclined) to see any potential change for the better. This would ultimately end up creating a feedback loop of DPP continuing to be hated and excluded from team tours as a result, unless you can get some major changes coming about from Classic and other sporadic individual tours, which are generally a lot more limited in the scope of meta development.
is not enough to convince me to follow either the status quo or the removal of SM2.

I believe DPP's development can be good independent of whether it is added to the tour, and I think it'd be better to allow it to do so in an environment where it's not actively detrimental to a tournament's players. After all, tiering action has shown to be possible outside of tournaments, as evidenced by the recent Shaymin ban (which, by the way, may not be a good thing but that's not for me to talk about) so why is the argument for keeping DPP based around the idea that removal will kill the metagame?

One final thing to consider: other oldgens with minimal representation outside of the odd tour DO still get developed. ORAS is an excellent example: Charizard X reigns supreme, and its number of sets increases by the month, yet it is only played competitively in less than half of the circuit tournaments. While its development is slow, it isn't halted, and its metagame is quite enjoyable with potential for innovation that isn't demanded as a response to an overwhelming set of top-tier Pokemon. DPP can see improvement outside of PL, and I think it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
 

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