350 Cup

[QT]

I'm confused as to what you are saying isn't true. The point about flying spam getting walled by only rock and steel types, or that Staravia is just as good as Rufflet?.

About Staravia being as good as Rufflet. Rufflet, with choice band and hustle, ohko's offensive Pdon- staravia doesn't. This means Pdon is still a check for it. Similarly, Rufflet gets alternate sets, with gems like sheer force heatwave or even just coverage superpower to blow away its so called counters. Staravia (and magnemite), on the other hand, are beaten by Pdon, E-killer if at 50% hp (so after rocks and a ko), Stoneceus with eq, Steelceus with eq, and Yveltal if at low HP (sucker punch +BB recoil)(4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Staravia: 136-161 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- 27.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)

 

[imas]

OK, I've been inactive the last couple days so I'm posting now. The first suspect will be Rufflet.

The council agreed that if anything in the meta deserves a ban at the moment, it's Rufflet. It's fast for a wallbreaker, has decent bulk and an enormous attack stat boosted by hustle. It's band set has the potential to 2hko most of the tier and it can probably even run a decent hone claws set to patch up the accuracy issue while getting the very useful attack boost. One of the bigger reasons for this to be suspected before Staravia is the access to good fighting type coverage in Superpower and access to Shadow Claw , giving it the ability to break through all of the birdspam counters.

Now, how will this suspect work? Well, I'm looking for arguments, good ones. Being inexperienced with the meta and bans in general, I'm largely reliant on the council to make a decision and am leaning towards whatever they're deciding, unless someone can convince me and the council otherwise. So, the next discussion I want to see here would be: Are you leaning towards ban or no ban? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Post away!

 

[Akiii]

The last time this was OM of the month I used Trapinch and had the impression that it was amazing. I am using it again this time and I have no clue why I thought that. It's just a very mediocre trapper with average bulk.
At least it has huge Attack with STAB EQ.

 

[The Immortal]

Lcass4919 The Reptile yoman5 anyone of you can host the viability ranking if you want. If none of you want to, I'll select a non-council member.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I haven't seen anyone say anything about Swirlix.
This is a set Ive had good success with. I've seen Belly Drum on the ladder, but without Drain Punch it is extremely underwhelming. Calm mind is the way to go for Swirlix and you get to choose what you want to hit. It gets a stat spread of 124/96/132/118/114/98 and its speed is doubled upon unburden, its pretty damned ridiculous once it gets started. CM has everything it needs to get past its checks and counters. Flamethrower hits Steels, Psychic hits Poisons, Energy Ball if you hate Whooper, Thunderbolt for burdspam, even gets Surf but PDon's presence won't allow me to advise its use. Draining Kiss is mandatory because it makes Swirlix extremely difficult to take down, Dazzling Gleam is there but it will severely hamper Swirlix's longevity.
Substitute is always an option, I just prefer CM+three attacks. 124/132/114 bulk is truly ridiculous for a set-up sweeper, especially one with high SpA and speed.

Swirlix @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 184 HP / 52 Def / 204 SpA / 68 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt





I think Rufflett might be too much, I say ban it.
This is why:

• The only drawback of hustleband is lowered accuracy.
• Brave Bird, Frustration/Return, U-Turn, Superpower, Facade, Shadow Claw are all 100% accurate. Between these listed moves the coverage is everything it needs.
• Due to the perfect accuracy of its STABS and coverage it will be hitting 80% of the time.
  
• Every time it lands a clean hit it will be devastating.

• Even though hustleband is probably its best set, it does have a lot of options; it has access to two good set-up moves and reliable recovery. You can't even safely assume it's band which just adds even more to the difficulty required to dispatch it.

These are the reasons why I think it might be broken.

 

[StuckInTheMuk]

Rufflet is very OP. I think Honedge is the only safe switchin to the band set, and even that can be killed by an unexpected sheer force Heatwave. Every other tier will ban a mon on the basis that it can 2HKO 90% of the metagame, Rufflet can 2HKO 99% of it.

I've seen a couple BD Swirlix, but it's never a problem if one has a steel type. Calm mind looks ok but I would prefer Clefairy.

 

[Lcass4919]

OK, I've been inactive the last couple days so I'm posting now. The first suspect will be Rufflet.

The council agreed that if anything in the meta deserves a ban at the moment, it's Rufflet. It's fast for a wallbreaker, has decent bulk and an enormous attack stat boosted by hustle. It's band set has the potential to 2hko most of the tier and it can probably even run a decent hone claws set to patch up the accuracy issue while getting the very useful attack boost. One of the bigger reasons for this to be suspected before Staravia is the access to good fighting type coverage in superpower, giving it the ability to break through all of the birdspam counters barring honedge.

Now, how will this suspect work? Well, I'm looking for arguments, good ones. Being inexperienced with the meta and bans in general, I'm largely reliant on the council to make a decision and am leaning towards whatever they're deciding, unless someone can convince me and the council otherwise. So, the next discussion I want to see here would be: Are you leaning towards ban or no ban? If yes, why? If no, why not?

Post away!

imas, as i pointed out, even honedge isnt safe, since it also gains shadow claw, which 2hkos even max defense variants.

 

[imas]

Ooo I'll edit that in. Shadow Claw is dumb lol.

 

[sharpen42]

Well like you said Larvitar has 82 speed instead of 61 which actually matters on a DD set. Also, Larvitar is more suited to fulfill a DD role not only because of more speed, but Guts and T-Wave immunity, as well. TTar only has 10 more points in defense than Larvitar in terms of bulk, the HP and SpD are the exact same. Only 6 more points in attack. That +21 speed and guts matters a lot on a DD set. Taunt lets it shut down utility walls and dance for free, while stab quake/edge is better than stab crunch/edge imo, lets it muscle past fighting types more easily.

Larvitar looks interesting. Do you wanna know what's a good teammate for it?

90 HP | 40 Atk | 100 Def | 120 SpA | 240 SpD | 100 Spe

Mantyke @ Wacan Berry / Leftovers / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Icy Wind / Ice Beam
- Toxic / Aqua Ring / Protect
- Mirror Coat / Aqua Ring / Protect

Well, I guess 90/100/240 bulk talks on its own. You don't really need a Wacan Berry, since Larvitar is immune to Electric-type, so you can even try to run an Aqua Ring+Protect+Leftovers set to fill its lack of a recovery and restore 1/8 HP per turn. It can tank pretty anything (I'll add some calcs later) thanks to its incredible bulk (I thought it could learn Acid Shield, but it can't :[ ).

 

[jackm]

I say Ban on Rufflet. It functions much in the same role as Kyogre functioned in Ubers before the introduction of Groudon-Primal (this is the best relation that came to mind) but it has an extra ~10% buff to power. Yes, checks and sort-of-counters existed to Kyogre, but they barely avoided the 2HKO and were easily worn down, leaving Kyogre able to--between its Specs and Scarf sets--exert enormous pressure on both stall and offensive teams alike simply due to its sheer power. Rufflet is similar to this (but with Band in place of specs, obviously) but it crosses the threshold into 2HKOing all of those would-be checks. In addition, its main nuke STAB is impossible to bear immunity to and quad resisting it opens one's counter up to be demolished by a coverage move, generally Superpower. Overall, I believe it's simply too much for the tier to handle.

 

[thdhted]

Off topic here(I'm of the opinion for a Rufflet BAN as well, mostly due to it easily being able to deal with the checks it does have and tearing most other teams apart)





From what I remember of last time 350 cup was OMOTM, I remember really enjoying using Growlithe.
A solid stat spread of 110/140/90/140/100/120 made it very versatile, with both Offensive and some more Stall oriented sets being pretty strong.
Its good movepool also contributed to it being(in my eyes) pretty viable.

My favorite set was(at the time)

Growlithe@ Life Orb
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 Def
Jolly Nature
Intimidate
-Flare Blitz
-Crunch
-Wild Charge
-Morning Sun/Close Combat

Decent offensive set that could hit several common threats reasonably hard, and had a spare moveslot to do what you needed it to do. Could also switch up the set for a set of Wil-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Flamethrower, and Roar with Lefties.

 

[Lcass4919]

Off topic here(I'm of the opinion for a Rufflet BAN as well, mostly due to it easily being able to deal with the checks it does have and tearing most other teams apart)





From what I remember of last time 350 cup was OMOTM, I remember really enjoying using Growlithe.
A solid stat spread of 110/140/90/140/100/120 made it very versatile, with both Offensive and some more Stall oriented sets being pretty strong.
Its good movepool also contributed to it being(in my eyes) pretty viable.

My favorite set was(at the time)

Growlithe@ Life Orb
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 Def
Jolly Nature
Intimidate
-Flare Blitz
-Crunch
-Wild Charge
-Morning Sun/Close Combat

Decent offensive set that could hit several common threats reasonably hard, and had a spare moveslot to do what you needed it to do. Could also switch up the set for a set of Wil-O-Wisp, Morning Sun, Flamethrower, and Roar with Lefties.

ive actually been trying a mixed offensive growlith with fire blast, close combat, hp ice, and morning sun and its been very effective.

 

[yoman5]

350 Cup Preliminary Viability Rankings
​

S Rank:

Clefairy

Primal Groudon

Staravia

A Rank:

A+

Darkrai

Drilbur

Ho-Oh

Magnemite

Shroomish

Xerneas

A

Arceus-Ghost

Arceus-Rock

Ferroseed

Gengar-Mega

Houndour

Mienfoo

Salamence-Mega

Mewtwo-Mega-Y

Yveltal

A-

Arceus-Normal

Carvanha

Deoxys-Attack

Dwebble

Foongus

Gothita

Hippopotas

Klefki

Kyogre-Primal

Lugia

Rayquaza

Slowpoke

Vibrava

B Rank:

B+

Axew

Deoxys-Speed

Froakie

Latias

Sableye-Mega

Scraggy

Staryu

B

Arceus-Water

Bronzor

Growlithe

Koffing

Mantyke

Natu

Rhyhorn

Shaymin-Sky

Solosis

B-

Frillish

Meditite

Mewtwo

Smoochum

Trapinch

Woobat


Happiny Rank:
(These are all NFE's who are outclassed by their evolutions, and should never be used)

Gible

Goomy

Happiny

This is what we currently have for viability rankings, done by the council with input from a few others, at the prodding request of Funbot28. Feel free to discuss the rankings here and I'll do my best to keep up and explain what I can. B and C will be added later as people discuss and add more mons to the viability rankings (with valid arguments/explanations).

Edit on 12/12 for B rank and Happiny Rank

 

[imas]

I originally wanted to make a decision tomorrow, but it looks like the consensus for Rufflet is ban so, starting from now, Rufflet is banned from 350 cup. The faster ban also mean we can play a more balanced meta in the time it still has a ladder so, lgi. Tagging The Immortal to implement the change.

Also, since I tagged you, would it be possible to link the 350 Cup viability rankings - http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/350-cup-omotm-december.3512945/page-24#post-6563758 - in !om 350 cup while we have the command? It's not really in an obvious place atm so, the link being in the command would make it much easier to find. If that request is too much perhaps replace the rankings in the first page with the new one via c/p and provide a link to this post saying that that list might not be fully updated as there will probably be changes in viability but yoman won't be able to update the list in the second post in the thread. (This is why I prefer the first method, if possible)

 

[tom771]

Honedge for A- Rank

Honedge is a sturdy ,and surprising powerful, physical wall boasting 160 Attack and 200 Defence. It is able to take on 2 of the mons in S Rank with ease, Staravia and Clefable. Honedge also holds a unique niche in being the only viable steel type pokemon to be able to switch out of Magnemite's magnet pull as a result of its useful ghost typing. Because of this it is the most reliable counter to Staravia forcing the switch every time it comes in. Now that Rufflet is banned Honedge is, in my opinion, the best counter for birdspam. Its low special defence can force it to switch but it resists stealth rocks and cannot be trapped so this is not a large issue if it is paired up with a specially defensive wall like Clefairy or Ho-oh.

Physical Defensive set Importable

Honedge @ Chesto Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Toxic
- Rest
- Shadow Sneak

EVs maximise physical defence and provide a small boost in power. Relaxed nature and 0 speed IVs are for maximising gyro ball damage. Gyro ball is for damage as 56 speed is very slow considering Staravia's base 160. Toxic is used to slowly kill walls such as Slowpoke and Hippopotas and to status mons on the switch. Rest is the best recovery option and Chesto Berry allows Honedge to get 1 free rest off in a battle. Chesto Berry is preferred over Lum because rest will get rid of status anyway. Shadow sneak is for picking off walls at low health and utilising Honedge's 160 base attack more. You can also run protect or pursuit in the last slot. Another viable set is the SD + 3 Attacks which i haven't used but have been swept by it before.

 

[yoman5]

Honedge for A- Rank

Honedge is a sturdy ,and surprising powerful, physical wall boasting 160 Attack and 200 Defence. It is able to take on 2 of the mons in S Rank with ease, Staravia and Clefable. Honedge also holds a unique niche in being the only viable steel type pokemon to be able to switch out of Magnemite's magnet pull as a result of its useful ghost typing. Because of this it is the most reliable counter to Staravia forcing the switch every time it comes in. Now that Rufflet is banned Honedge is, in my opinion, the best counter for birdspam. Its low special defence can force it to switch but it resists stealth rocks and cannot be trapped so this is not a large issue if it is paired up with a specially defensive wall like Clefairy or Ho-oh.

Physical Defensive set Importable

Honedge @ Chesto Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Toxic
- Rest
- Shadow Sneak

EVs maximise physical defence and provide a small boost in power. Relaxed nature and 0 speed IVs are for maximising gyro ball damage. Gyro ball is for damage as 56 speed is very slow considering Staravia's base 160. Toxic is used to slowly kill walls such as Slowpoke and Hippopotas and to status mons on the switch. Rest is the best recovery option and Chesto Berry allows Honedge to get 1 free rest off in a battle. Chesto Berry is preferred over Lum because rest will get rid of status anyway. Shadow sneak is for picking off walls at low health and utilising Honedge's 160 base attack more. You can also run protect or pursuit in the last slot. Another viable set is the SD + 3 Attacks which i haven't used but have been swept by it before.

While I do think honedge could be A rank material, I disagree with some of your claims. Clefairy 3hkos you while this is what you do back to spdef clefairy:
8 Atk Honedge Gyro Ball (49 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Clefairy: 168-198 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Sd 3 attacks (and the assault vest set for that matter) is much more viable and isn't fodder for magnemite, though defensive honedge has its place. Honedge is by no means bad, and possibly A- material, but these are not the arguments you are looking for.

 

[canno]

also I didn't mention this before but can we make an F rank just for Chansey (and while we're at it Mega Lati@s because Soul Dew directly outclasses that)? Because you really shouldn't be using Chansey when Mega Gengar is lurking around.

 

[yoman5]

Happiny is the real F rank. We should do a special rank for those actually outclassed by the grown up versions of themselves, like goomy.

 

[~BLOOM~]

A or A-
Houndour is a great threat in 350. Special attackers/defenders are less common in this tier, and Houndour destroys most of them anyway. It has a good speed tier in 130, a great special attack stat in 160, and decent bulk at 90/60/100. This is a set I've been using to massive success on the ladder, and usually nets an average of 2 kills a game;

Houndour @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EV's: 252 Spe / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Modest or Timid Nature
-Fire Blast
-Dark Pulse
-Sucker Punch
-Nasty Plot

Fire/Dark coverage on a pokemon as strong as Houndour is great in this tier, as expected checks like Carvahna and Primal-Groudon don't avoid the 2HKO without modest investment. Nasty Plot boosts this power to extreme levels, and 120 base attack is great to pick off weakened opponents with Sucker Punch.

 

[Meek Miltank]

R.I.P Rufflet :( The only thing good about having to replace it on my with for Staravia, is that i wont freaking miss. I've lost so many games just because Rufflet misses.

 

[The Jermy Pandemic]

I've been playing around in 350 Cup, and I've noticed a very overlooked special sweeper in Solosis.

90 / 60 / 80 / 210 / 100 / 40

Yeah, I know you all see that whopping 210 Special Attack Solosis is packing, and it definitely shows. Solosis, like his older brother in UU, is best used as a Trick Room setter. Unlike big bro Reuniclus, however, Solosis can now just nuke things out of the gate with a whopping 569 Special Attack (boosted further by a recoil-less Life Orb). Magic Guard allows it to switch into entry hazards freely, as well as sponging potential burns and poisons that would cripple other teammates, letting it act as a status absorber as well. It has the niche of being fairly flexible of the timing of your Trick Room, since it can either shred holes in healthy teams or finish off several weakened mons in one sitting. The jellybaby is also notable for being one of the few Trick Room setters with immediate offensive pressure, not needing to drop a coverage move for a boosting move. This also prevents it from being complete Taunt bait, since it can 2HKO most common users, and its decent bulk allows it to narrowly miss being OHKO'd back.

set details

Solosis @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Fire / Thunder
- Shadow Ball / Thunder / Energy Ball

Due to Solosis's rather bland movepool, there isn't much room for creativity, but its movepool does what it needs to rather well. Psychic is preferred, simply due to the higher damage output and the number of relevant mons with higher natural physical bulk (Primal Groundon, Mega Salamence, Hippopotas) that would otherwise check it. Psyshock can see use against mons with mixed bulk that tend to lean special, but it tends to not be worth it. If your team has other ways of dealing with pdon, go ahead, but otherwise stick to Psychic.

Shadow Ball hits opposing Psychics and Ghost Pokemon super hard, and 2HKOs just about everything in the tier that is hit super effectively. It can be swapped out for either Thunder or Energy Ball, but Thunder tends to miss often, and Grass coverage is unnecessary in a tier where numerous Grass types like Foongus, Shroomish, Ferroseed, and Snivy run wild. It doesn't hit much that Thunder and your Psychic STAB don't already, outside of Rock types (which are rare).

Your Hidden Power (or Thunder, if you absolutely have to hit birds/waters effectively or have rain support) needs to be geared towards hitting things that your STAB and coverage move cannot. Hidden Powers Fire & Ground have some merit here for eliminating pests like Ferrothorn or Magnemite, but HP Fighting is the type of choice due to its great neutral coverage and added pressure on Darks.

relevant calcs/team options

*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 356-421 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefairy: 277-328 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psychic vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 308-364 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 331-391 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drilbur: 331-391 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Honedge: 460-543 (113.8 - 134.4%) -- *guaranteed OHKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia: 247-291 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 229-270 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferroseed: 169-200 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*252+ SpA Life Orb Solosis Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 138-162 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A recommended partner for our jellybaby would be a relatively slow mon that can pivot Solosis in safely, like Chinchou or Pancham. The former can burn things that would hit Solosis hard, and the latter can weaken offensive threats and resist the Bug or Dark moves that could be sent its way. Entry hazards make all the difference here, turning rolls into guaranteed 2HKOs and turning 3HKOs into favorable trades an opponent would not be willing to take, so Stealth Rock support (and possibly even Spike stacking) is vital. Be careful about including paralysis support on a team with Solosis, as paralyzed mons with 304 or lower Speed will outslow Solosis's 76, possibly ending your rampage prematurely.

Is Solosis perfect? Of course not. Its defenses are modest by 350 Cup standards, and it does not want to forgo a coverage move for recovery, making it somewhat easy to wear down with repeated attacks. Pokemon that can outslow Solosis will get an opportunity to impede its progress with a Spore or Knock Off (though opposing Foongus with an unchanged 31 Speed IV will still be outslowed by min-Speed Solosis). Dedicated special walls like Clefairy, PH Shroomish, and Primal-Kyogre avoid favorable 2HKO odds from a Psychic and can set up or stall out the turns of Trick Room with recovery. This doesn't mean they are counters, however. Not even the tier's premier special walls appreciate taking ~40% from a Psychic, and prior damage can make these into kills Solosis can pick up himself.

tl;dr: With the proper team setup, it can tear gaping holes into an opposing team and even support the rest of your team doing so. As such, I personally believe there is an argument for placing Solosis in B+ or even possibly A-.

 

[erasedisknow]

Goomy LITERALLY just turns into Goodra.

 

[thesecondbest]

And sliggoo is the average between the two of them :O random trivia op