As a reading addict, I can safely tell you that won't be a problem on this thread. Long writeups tend to be a sign of Trainers willing to improve and persevere, so it would be great to add another climber to "our ranks", in a manner of speaking.
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Battle Tree Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Eisenherz
- Start date
Thanks God, that means hours of writing I put into yesterday wouldn't go to waste haha. I will try to finish this by tonight...or tomorrow.
Eisenherz, congrats for your streak and nice to see something that looks a bit gimmicky at first glance work that well!
Did you know back in subway days someone already was succesfull with BellyDrumPsychUpTrickroom? https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ith-gen-4-records.102593/page-20#post-3729038
And i guess you are aware of that, but if you had the other edition you wouldnt have to face Kiawe, who appears on your threat list ;)
Did you know back in subway days someone already was succesfull with BellyDrumPsychUpTrickroom? https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ith-gen-4-records.102593/page-20#post-3729038
And i guess you are aware of that, but if you had the other edition you wouldnt have to face Kiawe, who appears on your threat list ;)
What's up everyone! I'm new to the forum and this is my first ever post! Since I got tired of shiny hunting in USUM (122 shinies in 45 days, no big deal hehe), I want to take on the Battle Tree to see how far I can get. I happened to come across this thread and saw 2 guys with over 1000 wins streak using a Trick Room team and the Lele, Mega Sharpedo team on Super Double Battle Tree (ReptoAbysmal and Josh C. ); therefore, I set my ultimate goal to beat these guys' streaks. However, before getting to the 1000th wins, I have to reach 100 wins on Super Double Battle Tree first.
I'm currently on an ongoing streak with 450 consecutive wins on Super Battle Tree USUM; but before showing you guys the current team, I will show you the teams that I used before getting to this current streak first.
Caution: You can skip this part and go to the Battle #1 to #400 part if you don't want to read the boring part about my past teams.
The original team that I used to try to get to 100 wins:
Here is my thought process in building the team and it's really simple lol. First of all, I need to choose a strong mega pokemon for the team. I love Dragon-type mega pokemons so I was debating between Mega Charizard X and Mega Salamence. Even though Charizard X is my favorite pokemon, I don't like the fact that I have to take recoil for Flare Blitz because I think it is super important to keep your pokemons as healthy as possible in Battle Tree. Therefore, the only choice left is Mega Salamence with its huge attack stat, good speed and the Intimidate ability (Seems like a good choice for a pokemon).
Next off, I want to use a fast fairy type because I figured there would be a lot of broken dragon types running around, and I can't always expect Mega Salamence to take care of them. The Tapus came into my mind immediately, and I had to choose one of them because I tried to not have two pokemons with the same type. Tapu Bulu is just too slow, Tapu Fini is more of a bulky pokemon, Lele has massive SpA stat but its Spe stat is kind of mediocre, so Tapu Koko seems like a good choice with very high speed and an average SpA stat.
Fake Out is one of the best moves hands down in Double, and since Mega Mence and Koko are weak again Steel type, I need an Intimidate user that can break through steels. Therefore, Incineroar seems to be the best choice for me. Fake Out is the reason that make Incineroar superior to Arcanine. And the last pokemon I decided to use Chansey because Chansey + Minimize is broken LOL. However, I only use Chansey as the last resort when my team can't fight back anymore.
Now, let's go to the move sets of these pokemons:
Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration
- Earthquake
I chose Earthquake instead of Dragon Claw because I already have Frustration as a better stab anyway, and Koko can always take care of dragon pokemons. If I had Frustration and Dragon Claw, I would get walled by Steel types, so I ran Earthquake instead to break through steel. Frustration is in case opposing trainer uses Ditto (which does not exist in Battle Tree lol).
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
Shiny: No
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
I chose Grass Knot over HP Ice because it can hit Ground type harder and especially Steelix is a pain to deal with for the team.
Incineroar @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
I chose this spread to make Incineroar bulky and get a lot of recovery back with the 50% berry. This is a support pokemon to Fake Out and throw a free attack or set up a Dragon Dance. Flare Blitz and Knock Off are awesome STABS, and I don't mind using Flare Blitz because recoil can help activate my berry.
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Minimize
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
There is not much to talk about this pokemon. Set up Minimize and stall with Toxic LOL. However, it will get completely walled by Gengar.
The lead will always be Salamence and Tapu Koko with Incineroar and Chansey in the back.
The lost:
Now, let's get to the first salty lost of this team. I managed to get to the 84th battles with this team on first try, which is pretty good for me.
Battle #84: VS Sightseer Christian:
[TKVG-WWWW-WWWZ-WA5F]
The lost against Christian is ridiculous because she hax'd me to death...That damn Vikavolt took out my whole team single-handedly.
First turn, I led with Mega Mence vs Tapu Koko vs Vikavolt and Glaceon. Since Glaceon is a threat to the team as it will 99% of the time hit both of my pokemon with Blizzard, I had to take it out immediately. Even though Gigavolt Havic takes Glaceon out 100% of the time, i doubled on Glaceon with Frustration and Gigavolt Havic anyway in case it has sash or bright powder. But she outplayed me and protected with Glaceon and threw a Z Ground to my Koko's face with Vikavolt and took it out. I switched in Incineroar and had I known Vikavolt would destroy my team, I would've Flare Blitzted it into oblivion. But it was my fault to think that I can take it out next turn with Incineroar, so I got greedy and fake out Glaceon and set up Dragon Dance. Vikavolt striked me with a Thunder and left my Incineroar with 60HP and PARALYZED. It doesn't activate my berry either. Since Glaceon can take out my Salamence, I had to Frustration and take it out first and left Incineroar vulnerable as the paralysis made it slower than Vikavolt. Vikavolt then landed another Thunder on my Incineroar and took it out. Now I have +1 Atk and Spe Mega Mence and Chansey, she has Vikavolt and Magnezone.. Vikavolt paralyzed my Chansey again with Thunder and my Mence took out her Magnezone. She brought in Chandelure. My Salamence couldn't OHKO it with +1 Atk so it died and Chansey was gonna win the game with +4 Evasion and Toxic. But no, Vikavolt has to OHKO my Chansey with fucking Guillotine. So that's how I lost at my first try to the stupid Vikavolt with the incredible hax.
Other variations of the original teams:
Learning from my last mistake, I opted to get rid of Chansey and replaced it for something that can handle Ground and Steel type pokemons better as they are threats to my team. So I chose to go for Suicine but it failed miserably with only 50 wins and lost to Blue.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
Then, I tried to replace Suicune for Excadrill instead, but it still didn't do any good.
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
And now, here comes the main event. The current team that takes me to the 450th and still going:
So, after realizing that the Mega Mence, Koko, Incineroar core doesn't work out quite well for me, I decided to run a different team that is more hyper offense than this team.
From battle #1 to #400:
Teambuilding:
Even though Mega Salamence is OP, it doesn't OHKO threats as well as I wanted, so I had to go for another mega pokemon that hits hard and is also fast. That's why I chose Mega Metagross and build my team around it.
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
With incredible bulk, huge attack, great speed, and a good ability before as well as after mega evolving, Mega Metagross is a monster. Its bulk allows it to live non-STAB super effective moves easily, sometimes it can even survive STAB super effective moves. If you get hit super effectively by Mega Metagross, you are gone. Period. With the Psychic and Steel, Mega Metagross is both good at offense and defense. The ability to check Psychic and Fairy is also great too.
Iron Head instead of Meteor Mash because it has higher accuracy. This is extremely important, you don't want to spam a move with 90% accuracy in Battle Tree unless you are an NPC in Battle Tree. A miss can change the game drastically in your opponent's favor so Iron Head is a good choice since it has 30% flinch, boosted by Tough Claws, and hit nearly as hard as Meteor Mash without missing.
Zen Headbutt because it is STAB and it gets rid of Poison type pokemons that are threats to Koko. However, since it only has 90 accuracy, I avoid using it as much as possible.
Ice Punch is an amazing coverage move because it OHKO menacing threats such as Landorus, Salamence, Charchomp, Dragonite. Overall, it is mostly to kill Dragons, Flying, and Ground.
However, Mega Metagross gets walled completely by Steel type and bulky Water type (even though I have Zen Headbutt for Water pokes), so I decided to build the rest to counter these types.
Therefore, I opted to go for Tapu Koko again as it is a reliable lead to get rid of Water type and Dragon type pokemons.
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
Even though its SpA stat is not impressive, thanks to its ability to bring electric surge, its electric attacks gain 50% power and hits pretty hard. With the powerful Z move plus Terrain, Tapu Koko 90% of the time OHKO everything that doesn't resist it. So, I almost always have a free kill every first turn.
Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam are quite standard and there is nothing much to talk about really.
Grass Knot instead of HP Ice because it hits those heavy Ground pokemons harder. And especially, it hits x4 effectively to the threat Rhyperior since Eearthquake OHKOs me and it has Lightning Rod to deny Thunderbolt/Gigavolt Havic. Plus, I have enough Ice moves from Metagross and Pokemon #3, and #4 already.
So, the common thing between Mega Metagross and Tapu Koko is that they both are weak to Ground and Steel type pokemons. Therefore, the third pokemon will be chosen to defeat Ground and Steel pokemons, which is none other than Mr. Lando - I.
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Yep, you heard it right. It's Landorus Incarnate form instead of Therian. Here's why. As great as Therian's Atk stat and its ability Intimidate is, my pokemon will be affected by the its spammed STAB move Earthquake. As a result, I went for Incarnate form instead as its STAB move Earth Power hits harder for it is a single targeted move and it doesn't hit its teammate. Second of all, Landorus and Tapu Koko will be my lead, so I don't want to get Intimidated by my opponents if I'm using Therian. With Life Orb Sheer Force, Incarnate hits harder than Therian for sure.
Earth Power: The favorite STAB move that I spam most of the time. With Life Orb, Sheer Force it hits much harder than Koko's terrain boosted Thunderbolt. This stab move checks Steel type easily.
Sludge Bomb: Thanks to Life Orb and Sheer Force, Sludge Bomb is basically a STAB move now so it most of the time can easily OHKO grass type that Koko's Thunderbolt has a hard time dealing with and. Sludge Bomb can be use to kill Fairies too.
HP Ice: Again, the same reason as Ice Punch, it is to deal with threats like opposing Landorus, Garchomp, Ssalamence, etc.
It seems like the core Mega Metagross - Tapu Koko - Landorus I is pretty solid. Now I need to find the final member that can support my team even further. For example: Taking Ice moves to protect Landorus, getting rid of Ground type that kills Koko and Metagross and destroy trick room setters that are usually Ghost or Psychic type. Hmmm, I wonder what can it be...Greninja.
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
The reason I used Protean Greninja instead of Ash-Greninja is because...I don't have one LOL. If I had had one, I would've used it, but oh well. It needs Focus Sash because of its weak bulk. Greninja is a fast pokemon but its SpA is not really impressive, so sometimes it can't OHKO threats even though they are super effective hits, but this is the best pokemon that I find suitable for my team at the time.
Scald and Dark Pulse are its main STAB. I mean, technically any move can be its STAB thanks to the ability, but you know what I mean. Scald instead of Hydro Pump because I don't want it to miss.
Ice Beam because it is too good of an attacking move, duh. Couldn't think of a better attacking move for it.
So here is the full team with the lead in the order that I lead with:
Strategy:
Contrary to the trend of using Trick Room team in this thread, I want my team to beat everything down with sheer power alone. Most of the time, these pokemons have the potential to OHKO 1 or even 2 pokemons on first turn. So, the strategy is to use Pokemon with high speed and high Atk/SpA to OHKO pokemons that are a threat to my team and leave pokemons that cannot deal much damage to my pokemon alone. With the Z move Gigavolt Havic from Tapu Koko, most pokemons will drop immediately turn 1 if they don't resist it; even if bulky pokemons survives, their attacks are not putting my pokemons in danger anyway since they have no attacking investment. So thanks to Koko, the match up is usually 4 vs 3 after turn 1, or even 4 vs 2 if Landorus can OHKO the other pokemon, which happens quite a lot actually considering Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power hits like a truck. The mission of Metagross and Greninja in the back is to take out pokemons that the duo Lando-Koko cannot get rid of or just simply take a hit for them.
I know that the strategy sounds simple but it works effectively. The strategy is basically making your team outnumber your opponent's so that you can have the advantage and the important thing is to gang up on the one threat to the team if necessary. The idea of using Koko turn 1 to use Z move to OHKO pokemons is from me getting set up by bulky Pokemons to activate Trick Room and stuff. As a result, I want to lead with something incredibly fast and can hit hard, which is Koko and Z move to OHKO setup users or threats. With said pokemons out of the way turn 1, what my teammates have to do is to simply deal damage to pressure my opponent.
Team explanation and their roles:
Initially, I wanted to lead Mega Metagross and Tapu Koko because Metagross can hit harder turn 1, which makes sense for my strategy. However, having both of them on the field means I will suffer from an Earthquake which both of them are weak to. Therefore, I had to change Mega Metagross as a lead for Landorus because it is immune to Earthquake so I don't have to worry when my opponent leads off with a Ground-type pokemon.
The duo Lando-Koko works extremely well together as a lead as they cover each other's weakness:
- Tapu Koko is weak to Ground type? Landorus is immune to it and fires off an attack to that Ground-type Pokemon while Koko protects and finish it turn 2, or Koko can simply Grass Knot/Dazzling Gleam it and let Landorus finish it off if it's a slower pokemon.
- Tapu Koko's main STAB Thunderbolt/Gigavolt Havic cannot hit Grass effectively? Landorus's Sludge Bomb can usually OHKO that grass pokemon.
- Tapu Koko's is weak to Steel type? Landorus OHKOs it.
- Tapu Koko is weak to Poison type? Landorus crushes it.
- Landorus is weak to Water type? Koko OHKOs it.
- Landorus cannot hit Flying type super well? Koko OHKOs it.
The problem is Landorus is weak to Ice type so the priority is to kill that Ice type immediately before anything; if there are two Ice types or there are a threat bigger than that Ice type pokemon, I will switch out Landorus into Metagross to take the Ice move attack or simply just protect with it. Since Ice pokemons are usually bulky, I'm not confident that Landorus can OHKO them so if there are two threats on the field, switch out Landorus or protect with it depending on the situation.
I never switched Greninja in as it is super fragile and it has a Focus Sash and I don't wanna break it. Greninja is like a bonus to the core Mega Metagross - Tapu Koko - Landorus, so I only switch it in when a pokemon faints.
Weakness of the team and threats:
Since the team is hyper offense, their investments are all in speed and power. Consequently, they are quiet fragile as there is no investment in bulk; however, their natural stat is not to be taken lightly as they can take hits too, especially the monster Metagross.
Long story short, the weakness of my team is facing faster pokemons that can hit hard first and Trick Room teams.
Here are the threats to this team and I will explain why they are dangerous to the team:
Ah yes, the pokemon that I hate facing the most as it is the biggest threat to my team. First and foremost, Mega Alakazam is ridiculous OP with 150 Speed and 175 SpA and Trace ability and Blue seems to always want to mess me up by bringing it. If it is Mega Alakazam, my pokemons are gonna drop. As it mega evolves, Trace ability usually traces my Sheer Force thus makes Psychic even more powerful that can OHKO my Landorus or Tapu Koko every single time. With that being said, when it mega evolves, 1 of my pokemon will die; what even worse is that if Koko dies, Landorus cannot revenge kill it every time with Earth Power. here is the cal to it:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 220-259 (87.6 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Yep, with only 25% chance of killing it, Mega Alakazam will likely take out another pokemon of mine next turn. However, if it attacks and kills Landorus, my Koko can revenge with Gigavolt Havic, but losing Landorus is a huge loss to my team. Predicting the attack and protect with either Landorus or Koko doesn't work either as it is too risky. If my prediction fails, I sure will lose.
Normal Alakazam, on the other hand, wouldn't be so bad...if it doesn't have the stupid Focus Sash. Having the ability to survive an attack from Koko and fire back with Psychic and the attack from Alakazam's partner means my opponent has a free attack against me and that is not good at all.
Switching when there is Alakazam on the field is not always a good idea either because they have a free attack as well.
This is the second biggest threat to my whole team. As you can see, I have no fighting move or fire move, so facing Ferrothorn is such a huge pain for me. I cannot touch this pokemon at all except for Landorus's Earth Power and Greninja's Dark Pulse. The stratregy when I see this Pokemon is too double on it, hit it with Earth Power, flinch it with Zen Heabutt or Iron Head, attack neutrally with Ice Punch, or Dark Pulse with Greninja. If I had Ash-Greninja, I would've replaced protect for Low Kick to deal with this pokemon and steel types. This Pokemon is also the reason why I made a change to this team.
The pokemon that I hate just as much as Mega Alakazam - the stupid Crobat that I'm always fear facing. With its ridiculous speed, its speed ties with my fastest pokemon, Tapu Koko, which is a 50/50 battle. If Koko wins the speed tie, it can OHKO Crobat with T-Bolt, but if it loses the speed tie, Cross Poison will OHKO Koko. Of course, depending the game on luck is not a good thing, so I usually have to switch Koko out and leave Landorus there trying to attack Crobat or the other opposing pokemon. The bad thing is that Landorus cannot take care of Koko's threat as usual for Crobat is faster, Crobat is immune to Earth Power, Crobat resists Sludge Bomb, and Crobat survives a hit from HP. By switching out Koko for Metagross, my Landorus and Metagross are vulnerable to the attack coming from Crobat and from the attacker of the pokemon that Crobat pairs with (unless I predicted right and they Cross Poison into my Metagross). Therefore, Crobat is a huge threat to the team.
Again, this pokemon wouldn't be such a pain to deal with if it didn't have Focus Sash most of the time. It has Fake Out, Sludge Bomb/Wave to OHKO my Koko, Fire Blast to OHKO my (Mega) Metagross so it puts my team under so much pressure. If it didn't have Focus Sash, Landorus can take it out easily. Predicting its upcoming attacking move is not so easy because the bot plays differently everytime we play it.
With Fake Out, my pokemons will be vulnerable to its partner's attack and I can't always OHKO it. If I was gonna predict a poison attack from it and switch in Metagross for Koko, what if the bot outplayed me and used Fire Blast towards the Koko slot and took out Metagross? Because that has happened before...If I'm predicting a poison attack and protect with Koko, what if they both attack Landorus and take it out? I would be in a bad situation, too.
If I'm double protecting to prevent the Fake Out, my pokemons are still vunerable next turn anyway...
The threat here is mainly the Choice Scarf Garchomp, not Mega-Garchomp. The only trouble that Mega Garchomp gives me is to wonder if the Garchomp sent in will attack first or mega evolve. If it is Scarfed and uses Earthquake, I will lose my Koko. But if I protected with Koko and use HP ice with Landorus, what if it mega evolved and go for Sandstream which will help it survive an HP Ice and leave my Landorus vulnerable to an attack?
So my best play imo is still protect with Koko, attack it with HP Ice and hope for the best.
Again, whether or not Sceptile mega evolves heavily affects my plays. if I want to double protect to scout for its moves and see if it mega evolves or not, I will be vulnerable next turn as I can't protect anymore. If I use a Z Move or TBolt and it mega evolves, I'm in a really bad situation as Lightning Rod raises its power and it can outspeed me easily. Its Earthquake and Leaf Blade are really threatening to Koko and Landorus.
You might think that (Mega) Gyarados being a threat to my team is crazy considering I have Tapu Koko, right? Well, the thing is that Gyarados is almost always the 3rd or last pokemon to be sent out. I rarely see it being the lead. And if my Koko is dead in the first few turns and they send out Mega (Gyarados), the rest of my team are useless because they cannot touch Mega Gyarados while it can Dragon Dance up and OHKO my whole team. If Tapu Koko dies, I just have to hope it's not mega and use Zen Headbutt from Metagross, or Greninja using Ice Beam is also an option. But that is far from optimal.
Ah yes, the Rotom family that I cannot touch at all. Usually, the Rotoms will be the lead and my leads cannot really touch them. Blizzard and Hydro Pump is always a threat to Landorus while Koko cannot hit hard at these pokemons and Landorus's Sludge Bomb is not that powerful either. Rotom Wash, however, can be killed by Koko's Z move. But, if Koko dies already, I'm gonna have a bad day against Wash. Koko doesn't want to take an Overheat from Rotom Heat either, so does Metagross. Plus, it has White Herb so it can use that move as full power twice. Rotom-Frost is a threat because I cannot really touch it, and have to switch out to Metagross to deal with it and leave Koko take a ton of damage from Blizzard. The reason I did not include Rtom-Row is because Landorus's Sludge Bomb can 2HKO it and it doesn't kill my pokemon with Leaf Storm anyway.
STUPID LEVITATE ABILITY MAKES THESE POKEMONS A PAIN IN THE ASS.
These two scary icy pokemons are threats to my lead again. Earthquake OHKOs my Koko, Ice Shard/Icicle Crash kills Landorus. The fact that Koko's Grass Knot doesn't kill Mamoswine is annoying because then I would have to predict whether it uses Ice Shard to kill Landorus or Earthquake to kill my Koko. Weavile is fast and hits hard, but especially it has Focus Sash again. Focus Sash can let it survive an attack from Koko and kills my Landorus. Metagross is not a fan of Weavile either as Night Slash can crit and kill it, which is probable as its crit chance is higher.
Magnezone is usually the lead of my opponent, and with Assault Vest or Bright Power and Sturdy ability, it is super hard to get rid of if I don't have a chance to Earth Power it or Earth Power misses because of Bright Power. Usually I Dazzling Gleam to break its sturdy and Earth Power to kill it, but I have been in a lot of situations where I cannot Earth Power it because there is a bigger threat that wants to kill my Landorus or I miss with Earth Power. After that, Magnezone can use Magnet Rise and then I cannot kill for it whole 5 turns. Koko, Landorus, and Metagross cannot touch Levitate Magnezone at all. Greeninja doesn't want a Thunder in the face either.
And finally, the two bulky pokemons that everyone loves in Battle Tree. Hmmm, I don't think being bulky alone is annoying enough. Why not let it learn Double Team/Minimize and a recovery move like Soft-Boiled/Moonlight so that it will be untouchable? If they can get a few raises in evasion, the game is likely to be over...Not to mention Cresselia has Calm Mind and Trick room too. As for Blissey, I only have one physical attacker so I don't really feel happy to face this abomination.
This two are also the reason why I use a different pokemon after battle #400.
Since two of the biggest threats are poison types, I'm considering changing from Sludge Bomb to Psychic instead.
Honorable mentions: Pokemons that are super annoying but not enough to be considered super threats.
Here are a few battles of the team. They are not really special or interesting, they are just the milestones of the team.
Battle #200: VS
[9S2W-WWWW-WWWZ-WE3X]
Battle #350: VS
[NB2G-WWWW-WWWZ-WE3Y]
Battle #400: VS
[N9XW-WWWW-WWWN-JM6J]
Bonus: Here is a battle where I battled 4 pokemons that I consider a threat to my team lol. I admit that I played really terribly in this battle so you don't have to point that out again lol. Thankfully it didn't cost me the game though :^)
Battle #352: VS
[4JAW-WWWW-WWWZ-WE3S]
From battle #400 onwards:
After almost 400 battles, I am no longer stubborn enough to keep using Greninja. As good as Greninja is, it does not hit pokemons hard enough to OHKO them even though it uses a super effective move. It cannot stop Oranguru, Chandelure, Starmie, Cresselia. Its Scald does not even kill some fire type pokemons either. The fact that Blissey and Ferrothorn can wall my team means that I have to replace Greninja for a physical attacker that hits harder than Greninja can.
Attempts in replacing Greninja:
After brainstorming, the best hard hitting and focus sash users that I can think of are Ultra Beasts. With great ability as Beast Boost and a Focus Sash to cover their weak bulk, Ultra Beasts have a huge potential to sweep.
The first thought that came to my mind when trying to find a fast and hard hitting physical attacker is Kartana.
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
It is a fast and heavy hitting pokemon. It can kill Ground types and Water types. It has Scared Swords so that it will not be walled by opposing Steel types, too. However, I don't like the fact that two of my pokemons are Steel types so that I will have the same weakness. After a few games testing, I unfortunately have to discard Kartana for something because I don't feel like it fits the team even though I really love Kartana :(
Naganadel @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
I am in love with this cool looking and power pokemon, honestly. However, Draco Meteor having 90 accuracy and a drop after attacking is not a good option for a pokemon sitting in the back. Usually when I switch in Naganadel, it is the last pokemon in my team, so getting -2 stages drop and not being able to switch is not my cup of tea. Dragon and Poison type are not that great of an attack anyway, and I will get walled even harder by Steel type even though I have flamethrower. Adding Naganadel to the team means I have 3 pokemons that are weak to Ground. Therefore, I have to say goodbye to Naganadel.
Blacephalon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
With a great typing of Fire and Ghost, it can get rid of a lot of threats for my team such as bulky Psychic pokemons, Steel pokemons, or even speacially defensive pokemons like Blissey thanks to Psyshock. This is the best option for me so far and I'm using it in the battle #400 as you can see from the replay. Yes, I replaced Blacephalon for Greninja from battle #39x. However, this also means that I'm weaker to Ground type pokemons too. I then decided to keep using Blacephalon until I can think of a better pokemon for the team than Blacephalon. And that Pokemon finally came.
THE FINAL AND BEST CANDIDATE FOR REPLACING GRENINJA THAT IS ALSO BETTER THAN BLACEPHALON IS:
Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Protect
- Lunge
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
This skinny cockroach is a monster and I can't believe I never considered using it. With the monsterous stats of base 137 in Atk and SpA, 151 in Spe, this thing destroys anything in its way. Counter to Steel type? Check. Counter to bulky Physic type? Check. Counter to Blissey and Ferrothorn? Check. Resists Ground type? Check. Even though it is a mix attacker, I want to fully invest it in the physical side instead because its physical STAB moves are better than special and to balance the Physical attacker and Special attacker to the 2:2 ratio instead of 1:3. Even though its special attack power is not invested, it still has 311 points, which is higher than a fully invested Timid Greninja. Crazy right? I decided to run Naughty to boost my attack instead of Speed because I don't want Beast Boost to boost my speed since it is speedy enough already.
Lunge is a great STAB move to kill Grass, Psychic, Dark pokemons. It has 100% chance to drop the attack of that pokemon too.
Low Kick instead of High Jump Kick because I don't want it to miss. Plus, there are a lot of pokemons that have Protect in Double Super Battle Tree. Low Kick has a massive power anyway since Ground type and Steel type pokemons are usually heavy.
Ice Beam because I couldn't think of a better move for it. Additionally, Ice Beam is used to check Flying types and Ground types to hit them super effectively. Ice Beam can kill a lot of scary things that I cannot OHKO too, like Landorus, Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite, etc. Why not exploit both side of its power since its special attack is naturally high already, right?
So my final team is:
Here is the #450 battle that I used Pheromosa in:
Battle #450: VS
I am so sorry for the lack of battle replays since I don't have a habit of saving my battles :(. If you guys want to watch more battles, I will try to save as many battles as I can.
Concluding paragraph:
I am really comfortable and satisfied with the team so far as I really have no problem with the team at all. I will try my best to make my streak from 450 to 1000 and even further. I have really enjoyed writing this, so I'm looking forward to the 1000 streak so that I can write another report on the team. Sorry for the long post and thank you so much for reading this. Any comments or recommendations and suggestions on the team are highly appreiciated and welcomed.
Before ending this, there is something that has been bugging me and I want to ask for everyone's opinions. Should I change the lead to Pheromosa and Tapu Koko, or should I keep it the way it is, Landorus and Koko? Pheromosa can take care out Steel, Grass, Ground types like Landorus can to protect Koko and with Beast Boost, it has a high chance to sweep the rest, too. Another reason for this lead change is because I don't want to lead with 2 special attackers and have 2 physical attackers in the back. But by leaving them in the back, the chance of my physical attackers being Inimidated is also lower.
So, what do you guys think? Should I lead with Landorus and Koko or Pheromosa and Koko?
I'm currently on an ongoing streak with 450 consecutive wins on Super Battle Tree USUM; but before showing you guys the current team, I will show you the teams that I used before getting to this current streak first.
Caution: You can skip this part and go to the Battle #1 to #400 part if you don't want to read the boring part about my past teams.
The original team that I used to try to get to 100 wins:
Here is my thought process in building the team and it's really simple lol. First of all, I need to choose a strong mega pokemon for the team. I love Dragon-type mega pokemons so I was debating between Mega Charizard X and Mega Salamence. Even though Charizard X is my favorite pokemon, I don't like the fact that I have to take recoil for Flare Blitz because I think it is super important to keep your pokemons as healthy as possible in Battle Tree. Therefore, the only choice left is Mega Salamence with its huge attack stat, good speed and the Intimidate ability (Seems like a good choice for a pokemon).
Next off, I want to use a fast fairy type because I figured there would be a lot of broken dragon types running around, and I can't always expect Mega Salamence to take care of them. The Tapus came into my mind immediately, and I had to choose one of them because I tried to not have two pokemons with the same type. Tapu Bulu is just too slow, Tapu Fini is more of a bulky pokemon, Lele has massive SpA stat but its Spe stat is kind of mediocre, so Tapu Koko seems like a good choice with very high speed and an average SpA stat.
Fake Out is one of the best moves hands down in Double, and since Mega Mence and Koko are weak again Steel type, I need an Intimidate user that can break through steels. Therefore, Incineroar seems to be the best choice for me. Fake Out is the reason that make Incineroar superior to Arcanine. And the last pokemon I decided to use Chansey because Chansey + Minimize is broken LOL. However, I only use Chansey as the last resort when my team can't fight back anymore.
Now, let's go to the move sets of these pokemons:
Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration
- Earthquake
I chose Earthquake instead of Dragon Claw because I already have Frustration as a better stab anyway, and Koko can always take care of dragon pokemons. If I had Frustration and Dragon Claw, I would get walled by Steel types, so I ran Earthquake instead to break through steel. Frustration is in case opposing trainer uses Ditto (which does not exist in Battle Tree lol).
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
Shiny: No
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
I chose Grass Knot over HP Ice because it can hit Ground type harder and especially Steelix is a pain to deal with for the team.
Incineroar @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
I chose this spread to make Incineroar bulky and get a lot of recovery back with the 50% berry. This is a support pokemon to Fake Out and throw a free attack or set up a Dragon Dance. Flare Blitz and Knock Off are awesome STABS, and I don't mind using Flare Blitz because recoil can help activate my berry.
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Minimize
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
There is not much to talk about this pokemon. Set up Minimize and stall with Toxic LOL. However, it will get completely walled by Gengar.
The lead will always be Salamence and Tapu Koko with Incineroar and Chansey in the back.
The lost:
Now, let's get to the first salty lost of this team. I managed to get to the 84th battles with this team on first try, which is pretty good for me.
Battle #84: VS Sightseer Christian:
The lost against Christian is ridiculous because she hax'd me to death...That damn Vikavolt took out my whole team single-handedly.
First turn, I led with Mega Mence vs Tapu Koko vs Vikavolt and Glaceon. Since Glaceon is a threat to the team as it will 99% of the time hit both of my pokemon with Blizzard, I had to take it out immediately. Even though Gigavolt Havic takes Glaceon out 100% of the time, i doubled on Glaceon with Frustration and Gigavolt Havic anyway in case it has sash or bright powder. But she outplayed me and protected with Glaceon and threw a Z Ground to my Koko's face with Vikavolt and took it out. I switched in Incineroar and had I known Vikavolt would destroy my team, I would've Flare Blitzted it into oblivion. But it was my fault to think that I can take it out next turn with Incineroar, so I got greedy and fake out Glaceon and set up Dragon Dance. Vikavolt striked me with a Thunder and left my Incineroar with 60HP and PARALYZED. It doesn't activate my berry either. Since Glaceon can take out my Salamence, I had to Frustration and take it out first and left Incineroar vulnerable as the paralysis made it slower than Vikavolt. Vikavolt then landed another Thunder on my Incineroar and took it out. Now I have +1 Atk and Spe Mega Mence and Chansey, she has Vikavolt and Magnezone.. Vikavolt paralyzed my Chansey again with Thunder and my Mence took out her Magnezone. She brought in Chandelure. My Salamence couldn't OHKO it with +1 Atk so it died and Chansey was gonna win the game with +4 Evasion and Toxic. But no, Vikavolt has to OHKO my Chansey with fucking Guillotine. So that's how I lost at my first try to the stupid Vikavolt with the incredible hax.
Other variations of the original teams:
Learning from my last mistake, I opted to get rid of Chansey and replaced it for something that can handle Ground and Steel type pokemons better as they are threats to my team. So I chose to go for Suicine but it failed miserably with only 50 wins and lost to Blue.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
Then, I tried to replace Suicune for Excadrill instead, but it still didn't do any good.
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
And now, here comes the main event. The current team that takes me to the 450th and still going:
So, after realizing that the Mega Mence, Koko, Incineroar core doesn't work out quite well for me, I decided to run a different team that is more hyper offense than this team.
From battle #1 to #400:
Teambuilding:
Even though Mega Salamence is OP, it doesn't OHKO threats as well as I wanted, so I had to go for another mega pokemon that hits hard and is also fast. That's why I chose Mega Metagross and build my team around it.
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
With incredible bulk, huge attack, great speed, and a good ability before as well as after mega evolving, Mega Metagross is a monster. Its bulk allows it to live non-STAB super effective moves easily, sometimes it can even survive STAB super effective moves. If you get hit super effectively by Mega Metagross, you are gone. Period. With the Psychic and Steel, Mega Metagross is both good at offense and defense. The ability to check Psychic and Fairy is also great too.
Iron Head instead of Meteor Mash because it has higher accuracy. This is extremely important, you don't want to spam a move with 90% accuracy in Battle Tree unless you are an NPC in Battle Tree. A miss can change the game drastically in your opponent's favor so Iron Head is a good choice since it has 30% flinch, boosted by Tough Claws, and hit nearly as hard as Meteor Mash without missing.
Zen Headbutt because it is STAB and it gets rid of Poison type pokemons that are threats to Koko. However, since it only has 90 accuracy, I avoid using it as much as possible.
Ice Punch is an amazing coverage move because it OHKO menacing threats such as Landorus, Salamence, Charchomp, Dragonite. Overall, it is mostly to kill Dragons, Flying, and Ground.
However, Mega Metagross gets walled completely by Steel type and bulky Water type (even though I have Zen Headbutt for Water pokes), so I decided to build the rest to counter these types.
Therefore, I opted to go for Tapu Koko again as it is a reliable lead to get rid of Water type and Dragon type pokemons.
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
Even though its SpA stat is not impressive, thanks to its ability to bring electric surge, its electric attacks gain 50% power and hits pretty hard. With the powerful Z move plus Terrain, Tapu Koko 90% of the time OHKO everything that doesn't resist it. So, I almost always have a free kill every first turn.
Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam are quite standard and there is nothing much to talk about really.
Grass Knot instead of HP Ice because it hits those heavy Ground pokemons harder. And especially, it hits x4 effectively to the threat Rhyperior since Eearthquake OHKOs me and it has Lightning Rod to deny Thunderbolt/Gigavolt Havic. Plus, I have enough Ice moves from Metagross and Pokemon #3, and #4 already.
So, the common thing between Mega Metagross and Tapu Koko is that they both are weak to Ground and Steel type pokemons. Therefore, the third pokemon will be chosen to defeat Ground and Steel pokemons, which is none other than Mr. Lando - I.
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Yep, you heard it right. It's Landorus Incarnate form instead of Therian. Here's why. As great as Therian's Atk stat and its ability Intimidate is, my pokemon will be affected by the its spammed STAB move Earthquake. As a result, I went for Incarnate form instead as its STAB move Earth Power hits harder for it is a single targeted move and it doesn't hit its teammate. Second of all, Landorus and Tapu Koko will be my lead, so I don't want to get Intimidated by my opponents if I'm using Therian. With Life Orb Sheer Force, Incarnate hits harder than Therian for sure.
Earth Power: The favorite STAB move that I spam most of the time. With Life Orb, Sheer Force it hits much harder than Koko's terrain boosted Thunderbolt. This stab move checks Steel type easily.
Sludge Bomb: Thanks to Life Orb and Sheer Force, Sludge Bomb is basically a STAB move now so it most of the time can easily OHKO grass type that Koko's Thunderbolt has a hard time dealing with and. Sludge Bomb can be use to kill Fairies too.
HP Ice: Again, the same reason as Ice Punch, it is to deal with threats like opposing Landorus, Garchomp, Ssalamence, etc.
It seems like the core Mega Metagross - Tapu Koko - Landorus I is pretty solid. Now I need to find the final member that can support my team even further. For example: Taking Ice moves to protect Landorus, getting rid of Ground type that kills Koko and Metagross and destroy trick room setters that are usually Ghost or Psychic type. Hmmm, I wonder what can it be...Greninja.
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
The reason I used Protean Greninja instead of Ash-Greninja is because...I don't have one LOL. If I had had one, I would've used it, but oh well. It needs Focus Sash because of its weak bulk. Greninja is a fast pokemon but its SpA is not really impressive, so sometimes it can't OHKO threats even though they are super effective hits, but this is the best pokemon that I find suitable for my team at the time.
Scald and Dark Pulse are its main STAB. I mean, technically any move can be its STAB thanks to the ability, but you know what I mean. Scald instead of Hydro Pump because I don't want it to miss.
Ice Beam because it is too good of an attacking move, duh. Couldn't think of a better attacking move for it.
So here is the full team with the lead in the order that I lead with:
Strategy:
Contrary to the trend of using Trick Room team in this thread, I want my team to beat everything down with sheer power alone. Most of the time, these pokemons have the potential to OHKO 1 or even 2 pokemons on first turn. So, the strategy is to use Pokemon with high speed and high Atk/SpA to OHKO pokemons that are a threat to my team and leave pokemons that cannot deal much damage to my pokemon alone. With the Z move Gigavolt Havic from Tapu Koko, most pokemons will drop immediately turn 1 if they don't resist it; even if bulky pokemons survives, their attacks are not putting my pokemons in danger anyway since they have no attacking investment. So thanks to Koko, the match up is usually 4 vs 3 after turn 1, or even 4 vs 2 if Landorus can OHKO the other pokemon, which happens quite a lot actually considering Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power hits like a truck. The mission of Metagross and Greninja in the back is to take out pokemons that the duo Lando-Koko cannot get rid of or just simply take a hit for them.
I know that the strategy sounds simple but it works effectively. The strategy is basically making your team outnumber your opponent's so that you can have the advantage and the important thing is to gang up on the one threat to the team if necessary. The idea of using Koko turn 1 to use Z move to OHKO pokemons is from me getting set up by bulky Pokemons to activate Trick Room and stuff. As a result, I want to lead with something incredibly fast and can hit hard, which is Koko and Z move to OHKO setup users or threats. With said pokemons out of the way turn 1, what my teammates have to do is to simply deal damage to pressure my opponent.
Team explanation and their roles:
Initially, I wanted to lead Mega Metagross and Tapu Koko because Metagross can hit harder turn 1, which makes sense for my strategy. However, having both of them on the field means I will suffer from an Earthquake which both of them are weak to. Therefore, I had to change Mega Metagross as a lead for Landorus because it is immune to Earthquake so I don't have to worry when my opponent leads off with a Ground-type pokemon.
The duo Lando-Koko works extremely well together as a lead as they cover each other's weakness:
- Tapu Koko is weak to Ground type? Landorus is immune to it and fires off an attack to that Ground-type Pokemon while Koko protects and finish it turn 2, or Koko can simply Grass Knot/Dazzling Gleam it and let Landorus finish it off if it's a slower pokemon.
- Tapu Koko's main STAB Thunderbolt/Gigavolt Havic cannot hit Grass effectively? Landorus's Sludge Bomb can usually OHKO that grass pokemon.
- Tapu Koko's is weak to Steel type? Landorus OHKOs it.
- Tapu Koko is weak to Poison type? Landorus crushes it.
- Landorus is weak to Water type? Koko OHKOs it.
- Landorus cannot hit Flying type super well? Koko OHKOs it.
The problem is Landorus is weak to Ice type so the priority is to kill that Ice type immediately before anything; if there are two Ice types or there are a threat bigger than that Ice type pokemon, I will switch out Landorus into Metagross to take the Ice move attack or simply just protect with it. Since Ice pokemons are usually bulky, I'm not confident that Landorus can OHKO them so if there are two threats on the field, switch out Landorus or protect with it depending on the situation.
I never switched Greninja in as it is super fragile and it has a Focus Sash and I don't wanna break it. Greninja is like a bonus to the core Mega Metagross - Tapu Koko - Landorus, so I only switch it in when a pokemon faints.
Weakness of the team and threats:
Since the team is hyper offense, their investments are all in speed and power. Consequently, they are quiet fragile as there is no investment in bulk; however, their natural stat is not to be taken lightly as they can take hits too, especially the monster Metagross.
Long story short, the weakness of my team is facing faster pokemons that can hit hard first and Trick Room teams.
Here are the threats to this team and I will explain why they are dangerous to the team:
Ah yes, the pokemon that I hate facing the most as it is the biggest threat to my team. First and foremost, Mega Alakazam is ridiculous OP with 150 Speed and 175 SpA and Trace ability and Blue seems to always want to mess me up by bringing it. If it is Mega Alakazam, my pokemons are gonna drop. As it mega evolves, Trace ability usually traces my Sheer Force thus makes Psychic even more powerful that can OHKO my Landorus or Tapu Koko every single time. With that being said, when it mega evolves, 1 of my pokemon will die; what even worse is that if Koko dies, Landorus cannot revenge kill it every time with Earth Power. here is the cal to it:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 220-259 (87.6 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Yep, with only 25% chance of killing it, Mega Alakazam will likely take out another pokemon of mine next turn. However, if it attacks and kills Landorus, my Koko can revenge with Gigavolt Havic, but losing Landorus is a huge loss to my team. Predicting the attack and protect with either Landorus or Koko doesn't work either as it is too risky. If my prediction fails, I sure will lose.
Normal Alakazam, on the other hand, wouldn't be so bad...if it doesn't have the stupid Focus Sash. Having the ability to survive an attack from Koko and fire back with Psychic and the attack from Alakazam's partner means my opponent has a free attack against me and that is not good at all.
Switching when there is Alakazam on the field is not always a good idea either because they have a free attack as well.
This is the second biggest threat to my whole team. As you can see, I have no fighting move or fire move, so facing Ferrothorn is such a huge pain for me. I cannot touch this pokemon at all except for Landorus's Earth Power and Greninja's Dark Pulse. The stratregy when I see this Pokemon is too double on it, hit it with Earth Power, flinch it with Zen Heabutt or Iron Head, attack neutrally with Ice Punch, or Dark Pulse with Greninja. If I had Ash-Greninja, I would've replaced protect for Low Kick to deal with this pokemon and steel types. This Pokemon is also the reason why I made a change to this team.
The pokemon that I hate just as much as Mega Alakazam - the stupid Crobat that I'm always fear facing. With its ridiculous speed, its speed ties with my fastest pokemon, Tapu Koko, which is a 50/50 battle. If Koko wins the speed tie, it can OHKO Crobat with T-Bolt, but if it loses the speed tie, Cross Poison will OHKO Koko. Of course, depending the game on luck is not a good thing, so I usually have to switch Koko out and leave Landorus there trying to attack Crobat or the other opposing pokemon. The bad thing is that Landorus cannot take care of Koko's threat as usual for Crobat is faster, Crobat is immune to Earth Power, Crobat resists Sludge Bomb, and Crobat survives a hit from HP. By switching out Koko for Metagross, my Landorus and Metagross are vulnerable to the attack coming from Crobat and from the attacker of the pokemon that Crobat pairs with (unless I predicted right and they Cross Poison into my Metagross). Therefore, Crobat is a huge threat to the team.
Again, this pokemon wouldn't be such a pain to deal with if it didn't have Focus Sash most of the time. It has Fake Out, Sludge Bomb/Wave to OHKO my Koko, Fire Blast to OHKO my (Mega) Metagross so it puts my team under so much pressure. If it didn't have Focus Sash, Landorus can take it out easily. Predicting its upcoming attacking move is not so easy because the bot plays differently everytime we play it.
With Fake Out, my pokemons will be vulnerable to its partner's attack and I can't always OHKO it. If I was gonna predict a poison attack from it and switch in Metagross for Koko, what if the bot outplayed me and used Fire Blast towards the Koko slot and took out Metagross? Because that has happened before...If I'm predicting a poison attack and protect with Koko, what if they both attack Landorus and take it out? I would be in a bad situation, too.
If I'm double protecting to prevent the Fake Out, my pokemons are still vunerable next turn anyway...
The threat here is mainly the Choice Scarf Garchomp, not Mega-Garchomp. The only trouble that Mega Garchomp gives me is to wonder if the Garchomp sent in will attack first or mega evolve. If it is Scarfed and uses Earthquake, I will lose my Koko. But if I protected with Koko and use HP ice with Landorus, what if it mega evolved and go for Sandstream which will help it survive an HP Ice and leave my Landorus vulnerable to an attack?
So my best play imo is still protect with Koko, attack it with HP Ice and hope for the best.
Again, whether or not Sceptile mega evolves heavily affects my plays. if I want to double protect to scout for its moves and see if it mega evolves or not, I will be vulnerable next turn as I can't protect anymore. If I use a Z Move or TBolt and it mega evolves, I'm in a really bad situation as Lightning Rod raises its power and it can outspeed me easily. Its Earthquake and Leaf Blade are really threatening to Koko and Landorus.
You might think that (Mega) Gyarados being a threat to my team is crazy considering I have Tapu Koko, right? Well, the thing is that Gyarados is almost always the 3rd or last pokemon to be sent out. I rarely see it being the lead. And if my Koko is dead in the first few turns and they send out Mega (Gyarados), the rest of my team are useless because they cannot touch Mega Gyarados while it can Dragon Dance up and OHKO my whole team. If Tapu Koko dies, I just have to hope it's not mega and use Zen Headbutt from Metagross, or Greninja using Ice Beam is also an option. But that is far from optimal.
Ah yes, the Rotom family that I cannot touch at all. Usually, the Rotoms will be the lead and my leads cannot really touch them. Blizzard and Hydro Pump is always a threat to Landorus while Koko cannot hit hard at these pokemons and Landorus's Sludge Bomb is not that powerful either. Rotom Wash, however, can be killed by Koko's Z move. But, if Koko dies already, I'm gonna have a bad day against Wash. Koko doesn't want to take an Overheat from Rotom Heat either, so does Metagross. Plus, it has White Herb so it can use that move as full power twice. Rotom-Frost is a threat because I cannot really touch it, and have to switch out to Metagross to deal with it and leave Koko take a ton of damage from Blizzard. The reason I did not include Rtom-Row is because Landorus's Sludge Bomb can 2HKO it and it doesn't kill my pokemon with Leaf Storm anyway.
STUPID LEVITATE ABILITY MAKES THESE POKEMONS A PAIN IN THE ASS.
These two scary icy pokemons are threats to my lead again. Earthquake OHKOs my Koko, Ice Shard/Icicle Crash kills Landorus. The fact that Koko's Grass Knot doesn't kill Mamoswine is annoying because then I would have to predict whether it uses Ice Shard to kill Landorus or Earthquake to kill my Koko. Weavile is fast and hits hard, but especially it has Focus Sash again. Focus Sash can let it survive an attack from Koko and kills my Landorus. Metagross is not a fan of Weavile either as Night Slash can crit and kill it, which is probable as its crit chance is higher.
Magnezone is usually the lead of my opponent, and with Assault Vest or Bright Power and Sturdy ability, it is super hard to get rid of if I don't have a chance to Earth Power it or Earth Power misses because of Bright Power. Usually I Dazzling Gleam to break its sturdy and Earth Power to kill it, but I have been in a lot of situations where I cannot Earth Power it because there is a bigger threat that wants to kill my Landorus or I miss with Earth Power. After that, Magnezone can use Magnet Rise and then I cannot kill for it whole 5 turns. Koko, Landorus, and Metagross cannot touch Levitate Magnezone at all. Greeninja doesn't want a Thunder in the face either.
And finally, the two bulky pokemons that everyone loves in Battle Tree. Hmmm, I don't think being bulky alone is annoying enough. Why not let it learn Double Team/Minimize and a recovery move like Soft-Boiled/Moonlight so that it will be untouchable? If they can get a few raises in evasion, the game is likely to be over...Not to mention Cresselia has Calm Mind and Trick room too. As for Blissey, I only have one physical attacker so I don't really feel happy to face this abomination.
This two are also the reason why I use a different pokemon after battle #400.
Since two of the biggest threats are poison types, I'm considering changing from Sludge Bomb to Psychic instead.
Honorable mentions: Pokemons that are super annoying but not enough to be considered super threats.
Here are a few battles of the team. They are not really special or interesting, they are just the milestones of the team.
Battle #200: VS
Battle #350: VS
Battle #400: VS
Bonus: Here is a battle where I battled 4 pokemons that I consider a threat to my team lol. I admit that I played really terribly in this battle so you don't have to point that out again lol. Thankfully it didn't cost me the game though :^)
Battle #352: VS
From battle #400 onwards:
After almost 400 battles, I am no longer stubborn enough to keep using Greninja. As good as Greninja is, it does not hit pokemons hard enough to OHKO them even though it uses a super effective move. It cannot stop Oranguru, Chandelure, Starmie, Cresselia. Its Scald does not even kill some fire type pokemons either. The fact that Blissey and Ferrothorn can wall my team means that I have to replace Greninja for a physical attacker that hits harder than Greninja can.
Attempts in replacing Greninja:
After brainstorming, the best hard hitting and focus sash users that I can think of are Ultra Beasts. With great ability as Beast Boost and a Focus Sash to cover their weak bulk, Ultra Beasts have a huge potential to sweep.
The first thought that came to my mind when trying to find a fast and hard hitting physical attacker is Kartana.
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
It is a fast and heavy hitting pokemon. It can kill Ground types and Water types. It has Scared Swords so that it will not be walled by opposing Steel types, too. However, I don't like the fact that two of my pokemons are Steel types so that I will have the same weakness. After a few games testing, I unfortunately have to discard Kartana for something because I don't feel like it fits the team even though I really love Kartana :(
Naganadel @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
I am in love with this cool looking and power pokemon, honestly. However, Draco Meteor having 90 accuracy and a drop after attacking is not a good option for a pokemon sitting in the back. Usually when I switch in Naganadel, it is the last pokemon in my team, so getting -2 stages drop and not being able to switch is not my cup of tea. Dragon and Poison type are not that great of an attack anyway, and I will get walled even harder by Steel type even though I have flamethrower. Adding Naganadel to the team means I have 3 pokemons that are weak to Ground. Therefore, I have to say goodbye to Naganadel.
Blacephalon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
With a great typing of Fire and Ghost, it can get rid of a lot of threats for my team such as bulky Psychic pokemons, Steel pokemons, or even speacially defensive pokemons like Blissey thanks to Psyshock. This is the best option for me so far and I'm using it in the battle #400 as you can see from the replay. Yes, I replaced Blacephalon for Greninja from battle #39x. However, this also means that I'm weaker to Ground type pokemons too. I then decided to keep using Blacephalon until I can think of a better pokemon for the team than Blacephalon. And that Pokemon finally came.
THE FINAL AND BEST CANDIDATE FOR REPLACING GRENINJA THAT IS ALSO BETTER THAN BLACEPHALON IS:
Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Protect
- Lunge
- Low Kick
- Ice Beam
This skinny cockroach is a monster and I can't believe I never considered using it. With the monsterous stats of base 137 in Atk and SpA, 151 in Spe, this thing destroys anything in its way. Counter to Steel type? Check. Counter to bulky Physic type? Check. Counter to Blissey and Ferrothorn? Check. Resists Ground type? Check. Even though it is a mix attacker, I want to fully invest it in the physical side instead because its physical STAB moves are better than special and to balance the Physical attacker and Special attacker to the 2:2 ratio instead of 1:3. Even though its special attack power is not invested, it still has 311 points, which is higher than a fully invested Timid Greninja. Crazy right? I decided to run Naughty to boost my attack instead of Speed because I don't want Beast Boost to boost my speed since it is speedy enough already.
Lunge is a great STAB move to kill Grass, Psychic, Dark pokemons. It has 100% chance to drop the attack of that pokemon too.
Low Kick instead of High Jump Kick because I don't want it to miss. Plus, there are a lot of pokemons that have Protect in Double Super Battle Tree. Low Kick has a massive power anyway since Ground type and Steel type pokemons are usually heavy.
Ice Beam because I couldn't think of a better move for it. Additionally, Ice Beam is used to check Flying types and Ground types to hit them super effectively. Ice Beam can kill a lot of scary things that I cannot OHKO too, like Landorus, Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite, etc. Why not exploit both side of its power since its special attack is naturally high already, right?
So my final team is:
Here is the #450 battle that I used Pheromosa in:
Battle #450: VS
I am so sorry for the lack of battle replays since I don't have a habit of saving my battles :(. If you guys want to watch more battles, I will try to save as many battles as I can.
Concluding paragraph:
I am really comfortable and satisfied with the team so far as I really have no problem with the team at all. I will try my best to make my streak from 450 to 1000 and even further. I have really enjoyed writing this, so I'm looking forward to the 1000 streak so that I can write another report on the team. Sorry for the long post and thank you so much for reading this. Any comments or recommendations and suggestions on the team are highly appreiciated and welcomed.
Before ending this, there is something that has been bugging me and I want to ask for everyone's opinions. Should I change the lead to Pheromosa and Tapu Koko, or should I keep it the way it is, Landorus and Koko? Pheromosa can take care out Steel, Grass, Ground types like Landorus can to protect Koko and with Beast Boost, it has a high chance to sweep the rest, too. Another reason for this lead change is because I don't want to lead with 2 special attackers and have 2 physical attackers in the back. But by leaving them in the back, the chance of my physical attackers being Inimidated is also lower.
So, what do you guys think? Should I lead with Landorus and Koko or Pheromosa and Koko?
Attachments
Out of curiosity, have you considered replacing Zen Headbutt with Stomping Tantrum for Metagross? You mentioned that you used ZH basically only for poison types and avoid it if not needed cause of the accuracy, and ST getting Though Claws bonus would allow you to deal with Poison types as well as have some extra way to chunk enemy steel types.
That is a great point. I have only tested Stormping Tantrum and Thunder Punch but only in theory. The reason that I prioritize using ZH is because it's STAB and I want as much damage as possible. Thank you for this, i will consider changing ZH for Stomping Tantrum.
Where did you get a perfect IV, 0 Atk, Timid, Hidden Ability Landorus?
From Dream Radar. It was Hyper Trained. The 0 IV is automatic in Showdown lol
How many guys with Ice attacks do you need? Lol. We could keep the Zen Headbutt and replace the Ice Punch instead.
Brick Break is another option, or the Electric Terrain boosted Thunder Punch could be really fun too.
Burning Abyss saving replays for the sake of saving them is unnecessary (and you'll find that people generally aren't interested in watching players steamroll teams that posed absolutely no threat to the frontline, regardless.)
What we do like to see are the ways you overcome the many threats you've listed, in situationally bad pairings you may not even have encountered yet. They'll show the ways you've improved over time and your ability to manage any kind of scenario the game throws at you. As with all of us, you'll eventually meet your match and perhaps bite off more than you can chew ;)
What we do like to see are the ways you overcome the many threats you've listed, in situationally bad pairings you may not even have encountered yet. They'll show the ways you've improved over time and your ability to manage any kind of scenario the game throws at you. As with all of us, you'll eventually meet your match and perhaps bite off more than you can chew ;)
Hmm, that's true. Now that I think about it, keeping Zen Headbutt and changing Ice Punch for Stomping Tantrum is better considering Pheromosa has Ice Beam in the back too. Thank you for your suggestion.
Okay, thank you for your suggestion. The thing is, the real threat that can cost me the game is Mega Alakazam. The rest I can handle by sacking one pokemon, so the game is not really that thriliing. But I will definitely save more interesting battles!
Hey all, got another team report comin at ya. No PheroLele this time even!
I completed this run a couple weeks ago, but finally am getting around to doing a little write up. Reporting a streak of 119 in Ultra Sun Super Doubles.
Team Building
For this team, I had two goals. The first was to build a slightly unconventional rain team that doesn't rely on many of the usual suspects like Tapu Koko, Alola-Raichu, Mega-Swampert, Landorus-T, Celesteela, or Kartana to name a few. Secondly, I really wanted to get a very seldom seen favorite of mine onto the leaderboard, Kabutops. I initially used Kabutops in the lead slot with Politoed, but I really ended up missing out on Pelipper's immediate threat to Grass and Fighting types, both of which brutalize Kabutops. After a few runs getting used to the lead combo, I ended up wanting something with Fake Out to protect Pelipper from a bit of danger, and the classic partner Ludicolo was a perfect fit. Rounding out the team, I tested out a few options such as Xurkitree (too slow), Mega-Manectric (decent, was a great answer to Electric attacks aimed at Pelipper with Lightning Rod, and Intimidate support, but I was never comfortable with his damage output outside of Thunder), Mega-Scizor (got frustrated with choosing the right move set and spread and gave up), and Eviolite Scyther (which actually felt surprisingly good, will have to explore this one further). Finally I settled on a great Mega not usually seen on rain teams, Mega-Salamence. So there we had my final team to make a serious run. A rain team with no Electric type or Ground type. I am not a smart man. But still I persisted on.
The Team
One of two possible linchpins in a rain team. Pelipper provides much more damage than you would expect coming of a 95 Sp. Atk Base Stat with a Modest nature. I used a simple special attacker spread along with a Focus Sash for pseudo-bulk.
Hurricane is the reason to choose Pelipper over Politoed. It hits hard off a 110 power STAB and will be your first response to Grass types, a huge danger to this team. Many common Grass types are taken down in one hit, such as Tangrowth, Lilligant, and Lurantis 3 and 4. I don't believe there is a Grass type that survives two. Even the massive Mega-Venusaur takes 77%-90.9%. But wait, there's more! In rain, it ignores Accuracy, giving you a guaranteed hit against the Evasion and Bright Powder nightmares that lurk in the tree. And if that wasn't enough, you have a 30% chance to cause confusion, a great way to fish for an escape from a sticky situation, or buy a free turn to gain momentum.
Scald is chosen over Hydro Pump mainly because of the drop in accuracy is too much to risk. With STAB and the bonus to Water attacks in rain, it still manages to get the job done. The burn chance is also very, very useful, as sometimes that is all it takes to survive an extra hit and finish off the match. I really like the idea of Brine as shown on Eisenherz's rain team, but I came across his report near battle 100 and I wasn't willing to rock the boat at that point. In addition, I don't think I had enough damage in my other lead slot to warrant using Brine, as his Specs Koko will deal a much bigger blow to facilitate the increase to 130 power at targets with <50% health.
I cannot stress enough how important I believe Rain Dance is for this slot. I had toyed with Tailwind and Ice Beam as the third move, but decided that reliable resetting of the weather was much more valuable. Without the Volt Switch - Switch strategy that Eisenherz employs (seriously go read it if you are interested in running a rain team), I would need two turns to reset weather. This team is just too fragile to handle that. Focus Sash and Ludicolo's Fake Out all but guarantees rain to go up again for turn two. And a rain team without rain is a dead team.
Lastly is Protect. A doubles staple, but Pelipper gets more use out of it than almost anyone. It can be used to bait Electric attacks that the AI loves to fire at you due to the 4x weakness. Just be careful of Gigavolt Havoc, as it will often still take you to your Sash through Protect. A common mistake I used to make was to think of Pelipper as almost expendable. But she is the glue that holds the team together, and is probably the most valuable member.
I love this little goober. Ludicolo is one of the best rain abusers simply for the fact that he can handle water types, something that no other Swift Swim user can claim. He also brings Fake Out pressure, a value that really can't be overstated, which is another reason he is unique among Swift Swim users. Lastly, he doesn't carry a weakness to opposing Grass and Electric types, which are understandably problematic for rain teams.
With full speed EVs is rain boosted speed clocks in at 244, out speeding everything in the tree except Scarf- Aerodactyl, Manectric, Garchomp, and Entei. With a Timid set, you can get the jump on everything except Aerodactly, but the drop in damage output compared to a Modest set severly outweighs outspeeding those three sets (even though they all are relatively threatening).
The rest of the EVs are put into Sp. Atk to be as threatening as possible, and the bonus point is put into HP.
I initially was using a Waterium-Z set with Hydro Pump, but I made a really stupid mistake by switching Hydro Pump for Scald when testing different sets. I forgot that only Lombre can be re-taught Hydro Pump, because reasons. Hydro Vortex has a base power of 160 with Scald compared to 185 with Hydro Pump, which was too much power to sacrifice. I ended up missing way too many OHKOs for comfort, so I switched to an Assault Vest to shore up my suspect Sp. Def, which is lacking throughout the team. I was pretty pleased with the level of bulk it gave me Fairly often I would be surprised to take a strong hit and live to tell the tale. If I were to run this team again though, I would use the Z-set. But because he was a shiny, I didn't feel like getting another Ludicolo. Ah well.
I mentioned Scald in the Pelipper section, so I won't here. Unlike Pelipper, I think the risk/reward for using Hydro Pump outweighs the utility and consistency of Scald, and would recommend that if you want to use Ludicolo.
You have three choices for Grass move; Grass Knot, Giga Drain, and Energy Ball. Grass Knot has the highest potential damage output, especially considering all the fat Rock or Ground types, but the lower damage to lighter targets was too much of an issue for me. For example, Rotom-Wash takes only about 20% damage. Giga Drain would be a very solid choice if you invested in a more bulky or utility Ludicolo (something like Scald, Giga Drain, Fake Out, Knock Off with a defensive nature and investment), but I wanted to pump out the damage. Energy Ball ends up doing the most consistent damage, and also provides the small bonus of a 10% chance at a Sp. Def drop.
Ice Beam and Ice coverage in general is so useful in the tree. Particularly with Dragon types that resist both Grass and Water. The Garchomp killer is to go to move for anything that resists your STABs. 10% freeze chance can also swing a battle in your direction if you happen to get lucky.
Fake Out is crazy useful for this team. One example of its usefulness is when dealing with Electric types. A common play is to Fake Out the Electric type and Scald with Pelipper, then clean up next turn with Ludicolo. Any breathing room is appreciated, and Fake Out relieves a lot of pressure.
This is a Salamence I've used before, so I'm copy pasting most of this and explaining some changes.
The first thing of note about Salamence is his ability Initmidate. Just 1 attack drop can make all the difference in a battle, and because he sits in the back, it doesn't activate any competitive/defiant abilities from Milotic, Bisharp, Tornadus, or Thundurus. Salamence is used here to deal with Grass types, which Ludicolo and Kabutops have trouble with, and Fighting types, which threaten Kabutops.
The real reason for using Salamence here is of course his mega evolution. An additional 50 defense makes him a solid response to physical attacks, and with 252 EVs his speed is bumped up to a respectable 189 with a Naive nature. Naive is used to avoid dropping either attacking stat while maximizing speed, but I am actually wondering if a Hasty nature might be preferred to avoid lowering his mediocre special defense even further. Unfortunately there are many threats sitting just above Mega-Salamence in terms of speed, such as Mega-Aerodactyl, Weavile, Ribombee, Greninja, and Noivern, and he ties with important mons like non-mega Alakazam, Kanto Dugtrio, and opposing Mega-Salamence. Ideally, the leads will take care of these, but if they slip to the back two, it could be an issue.
One of the biggest draws to Mega-Salamence is Aerialte-boosted Hyper Voice. Although Aerialte did receive a nerf in Gen 7, a 1.2X bonus in addition to the new found flying STAB moves still hits very hard. The spread Hyper Voice dents the enemy team, with Flying being a less often resisted attacking type. I chose Double-Edge to be able to hit a single target as hard as possible with physical damage. I finally found the reason for the 44 Atk EVs in the XY Battle Spot Doubles guide after the streak was finished, but it is largely irrelevant for this team. It OHKOs Mega-Gardevior with 252 HP/4 Def 62.5% of the time, so I've got that going for me. The remaining EVs are dumped into special attack.
I chose Earthquake over Flamethrower since I do negligible damage in the rain with non-STAB Fire attacks. Earthquake manages to hit Steel types, and heavy Flying attacks usually do enough against Scizor and Ferrothorn to avoid issue. The biggest beneift here is against Eletric types, seeing as the rest of the team struggles against them, and Flying type attacks are also resisted. Protect is Protect.
And finally, we come to the most interesting member of the team. No other mon better exemplifies hyper-offensive rain than Kabutops. He sports a workable base Def of 105, but with 60 HP and 70 Sp. Def, he won't stand up to many hits. His 115 Atk is noth ing to scoff at, and his base 80 speed in rain outpaces common Swift Swim users like Ludiclolo and Mega-Swampert. The reason to use Kabutops over other rain sweepers (other than how incredibly cool he is) is his Rock typing. The tree has a wide varitey of annoying Flying and Ice types, which are quickly dismantled by our reisedent horseshoe crab.
I went with an Adamant nature as the extra speed from Jolly would just be overkill at this point, and the extra oomph really helps. Swift Swim is required for a rain team. For Evs, I went with max Atk and 212 Spe to bring my speed stat to 127. That magical number when doubled is 254, which outspeeds the menacing Scarf-Chomp by a point. I took a freebie point in both defenses, and put the rest into HP for a little bit of bulk.
Liquidation is the Water type move of choice. Its 85 power and 20% chance of lowering defense is more useful to this team than the 80 power and 20% flinch chance of Waterfall. That extra 5 power often makes more of a difference that you would expect. If you take the multipliers into account (1.5x STAB and 1.5x rain boost), their base powers are 191.25 and 180, respectively. That can be the difference between OHKOing a threat and getting blown up by a return attack. The flinch chance is missed, but the 20% defense drop is useful for brute forcing yourself through resisting targets.
In some of my early iterations of the team, I was using Kabutops in the lead spot with a Focus Sash, Swords Dance, and Rock Slide in this slot. I really was a fan of it and would have continued to test with it had it not been for the previously mentioned Hydro Pump-Scald snafu with Ludicolo. Once I lost my Z-move on Ludicolo, I decided to move my Z-crystal to Kabutops. Losing the Focus Sash forced me to give up Swords Dance as I did not have enough durability to safely set up. I swapped him to the back to keep him safe until needed. Despite how much I loved the spread and flinch utility of Rock Slide, the damage output was lacking, especially with the Z-move. Using Stone Edge as my Rock move of choice boosted the power of Continental Crush from a palty 140 to a massive 180. This improved nuke was great for taking down bulky Flying types like Mandibuzz and Zapdos, and also helped deal with evasion boosters like Cresselia and...Zapdos. Stone Edge on its own is a mixed bag. 100 power is great, 80% accuracy not so much. The boosted crit chance portion actually saved me a couple of times. Once it netted me a huge KO on something I wasn't expecting, and once it managed to break through an opponent with boosted defense.
This slot used to have Swords Dance. I really missed it over the run. Kabutops at +2 tears through almost everything. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough opportunities for it to set up. I really was not in love with any move here once I gave up the Focus Sash. Aqua Jet is okay for priority, but you outspeed almost everything, and if you are in Trick Room you have bigger problems. Night Slash was okay for dealing with mons like Gourgeist and Trevenant, but they should be taken care of by Pelipper anyway. X-Scissor is okay, but faced the same issues as Night Slash. Rarely will it do more damage to Psychic or Dark types than Liquidation or Stone Edge would, and Grass types are better dealt with by Pelipper. Knock Off utility is great, but Kabutops should be dealing damage. That left me with Superpower and Low Kick. I chose Low Kick to hit Bisharp and Tyranitar out of rain, as the stat drops from Superpower were too much.
Protect is Protect.
I'll freely admit Kabutops is not a phemomenal pokemon, and even that he is outclassed by other rain sweepers (namely Mega-Swampert). But I'm very happy I managed to make one of my favorites work and get him onto the leaderboard.
Battle Videos
Not going to go too deep into analysis here, but I've got a bunch of battle videos showing the team in action.
HHSG-WWWW-WWWZ-6V3D - Against a fast, full electric team.
3CJG-WWWW-WWWZ-6V6X - Against Blue, resetting rain + spooky Alakazam.
AABW-WWWW-WWWZ-6V7L - Lost rain and Pelipper turn 1.
HXKW-WWWW-WWWZ-6VAA - Played terribly against full legendary team, miracle win.
6T3W-WWWW-WWWZ-6VGW - Against a stupid fast team, Ludicolo hard carry after some dicey situations.
RT6W-WWWW-WWWZ-6VY8 - Beefy Regis with Electric attacks. Yikes.
47EW-WWWW-WWWZ-6VKR - Against Colress, Pelipper Protect baits MVP.
AJTG-WWWW-WWWZ-6VRD - Featuring Hail, Mega Salamence missing the 62.5% chance Double-Edge OHKO on Mega-Gardevoir (damn you EVs), and nightmare Minimize Toxic Blissey. Bless no-miss Hurricane.
5ENG-WWWW-WWWZ-6VS9 - The loss. Played bad. Should've sent Kabutops to take out Togekiss right away.
Conclusion
Kabutops is on the leaderboard. I am happy. Thanks for reading everyone!
Future Teams
I'll hide this part so it won't clutter up the post, but take a peak and give me some input!
I completed this run a couple weeks ago, but finally am getting around to doing a little write up. Reporting a streak of 119 in Ultra Sun Super Doubles.
Team Building
For this team, I had two goals. The first was to build a slightly unconventional rain team that doesn't rely on many of the usual suspects like Tapu Koko, Alola-Raichu, Mega-Swampert, Landorus-T, Celesteela, or Kartana to name a few. Secondly, I really wanted to get a very seldom seen favorite of mine onto the leaderboard, Kabutops. I initially used Kabutops in the lead slot with Politoed, but I really ended up missing out on Pelipper's immediate threat to Grass and Fighting types, both of which brutalize Kabutops. After a few runs getting used to the lead combo, I ended up wanting something with Fake Out to protect Pelipper from a bit of danger, and the classic partner Ludicolo was a perfect fit. Rounding out the team, I tested out a few options such as Xurkitree (too slow), Mega-Manectric (decent, was a great answer to Electric attacks aimed at Pelipper with Lightning Rod, and Intimidate support, but I was never comfortable with his damage output outside of Thunder), Mega-Scizor (got frustrated with choosing the right move set and spread and gave up), and Eviolite Scyther (which actually felt surprisingly good, will have to explore this one further). Finally I settled on a great Mega not usually seen on rain teams, Mega-Salamence. So there we had my final team to make a serious run. A rain team with no Electric type or Ground type. I am not a smart man. But still I persisted on.
The Team
Pelipper (F)
@ Focus Sash
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 31/~2/31/31/31/31
- Hurricane
- Scald
- Rain Dance
- Protect
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 31/~2/31/31/31/31
- Hurricane
- Scald
- Rain Dance
- Protect
HP: 135
Atk: 50
Def: 120
Sp. Atk: 161
Sp. Def: 91
Speed: 117
Atk: 50
Def: 120
Sp. Atk: 161
Sp. Def: 91
Speed: 117
One of two possible linchpins in a rain team. Pelipper provides much more damage than you would expect coming of a 95 Sp. Atk Base Stat with a Modest nature. I used a simple special attacker spread along with a Focus Sash for pseudo-bulk.
Hurricane is the reason to choose Pelipper over Politoed. It hits hard off a 110 power STAB and will be your first response to Grass types, a huge danger to this team. Many common Grass types are taken down in one hit, such as Tangrowth, Lilligant, and Lurantis 3 and 4. I don't believe there is a Grass type that survives two. Even the massive Mega-Venusaur takes 77%-90.9%. But wait, there's more! In rain, it ignores Accuracy, giving you a guaranteed hit against the Evasion and Bright Powder nightmares that lurk in the tree. And if that wasn't enough, you have a 30% chance to cause confusion, a great way to fish for an escape from a sticky situation, or buy a free turn to gain momentum.
Scald is chosen over Hydro Pump mainly because of the drop in accuracy is too much to risk. With STAB and the bonus to Water attacks in rain, it still manages to get the job done. The burn chance is also very, very useful, as sometimes that is all it takes to survive an extra hit and finish off the match. I really like the idea of Brine as shown on Eisenherz's rain team, but I came across his report near battle 100 and I wasn't willing to rock the boat at that point. In addition, I don't think I had enough damage in my other lead slot to warrant using Brine, as his Specs Koko will deal a much bigger blow to facilitate the increase to 130 power at targets with <50% health.
I cannot stress enough how important I believe Rain Dance is for this slot. I had toyed with Tailwind and Ice Beam as the third move, but decided that reliable resetting of the weather was much more valuable. Without the Volt Switch - Switch strategy that Eisenherz employs (seriously go read it if you are interested in running a rain team), I would need two turns to reset weather. This team is just too fragile to handle that. Focus Sash and Ludicolo's Fake Out all but guarantees rain to go up again for turn two. And a rain team without rain is a dead team.
Lastly is Protect. A doubles staple, but Pelipper gets more use out of it than almost anyone. It can be used to bait Electric attacks that the AI loves to fire at you due to the 4x weakness. Just be careful of Gigavolt Havoc, as it will often still take you to your Sash through Protect. A common mistake I used to make was to think of Pelipper as almost expendable. But she is the glue that holds the team together, and is probably the most valuable member.
Ludicolo (M)
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 (Hyper-Trained)
- Fake Out
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Scald
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 (Hyper-Trained)
- Fake Out
- Scald
- Energy Ball
- Scald
HP: 156
Atk: 81
Def: 90
Sp. Atk: 156
Sp. Def: 120
Speed: 122
Atk: 81
Def: 90
Sp. Atk: 156
Sp. Def: 120
Speed: 122
I love this little goober. Ludicolo is one of the best rain abusers simply for the fact that he can handle water types, something that no other Swift Swim user can claim. He also brings Fake Out pressure, a value that really can't be overstated, which is another reason he is unique among Swift Swim users. Lastly, he doesn't carry a weakness to opposing Grass and Electric types, which are understandably problematic for rain teams.
With full speed EVs is rain boosted speed clocks in at 244, out speeding everything in the tree except Scarf- Aerodactyl, Manectric, Garchomp, and Entei. With a Timid set, you can get the jump on everything except Aerodactly, but the drop in damage output compared to a Modest set severly outweighs outspeeding those three sets (even though they all are relatively threatening).
The rest of the EVs are put into Sp. Atk to be as threatening as possible, and the bonus point is put into HP.
I initially was using a Waterium-Z set with Hydro Pump, but I made a really stupid mistake by switching Hydro Pump for Scald when testing different sets. I forgot that only Lombre can be re-taught Hydro Pump, because reasons. Hydro Vortex has a base power of 160 with Scald compared to 185 with Hydro Pump, which was too much power to sacrifice. I ended up missing way too many OHKOs for comfort, so I switched to an Assault Vest to shore up my suspect Sp. Def, which is lacking throughout the team. I was pretty pleased with the level of bulk it gave me Fairly often I would be surprised to take a strong hit and live to tell the tale. If I were to run this team again though, I would use the Z-set. But because he was a shiny, I didn't feel like getting another Ludicolo. Ah well.
I mentioned Scald in the Pelipper section, so I won't here. Unlike Pelipper, I think the risk/reward for using Hydro Pump outweighs the utility and consistency of Scald, and would recommend that if you want to use Ludicolo.
You have three choices for Grass move; Grass Knot, Giga Drain, and Energy Ball. Grass Knot has the highest potential damage output, especially considering all the fat Rock or Ground types, but the lower damage to lighter targets was too much of an issue for me. For example, Rotom-Wash takes only about 20% damage. Giga Drain would be a very solid choice if you invested in a more bulky or utility Ludicolo (something like Scald, Giga Drain, Fake Out, Knock Off with a defensive nature and investment), but I wanted to pump out the damage. Energy Ball ends up doing the most consistent damage, and also provides the small bonus of a 10% chance at a Sp. Def drop.
Ice Beam and Ice coverage in general is so useful in the tree. Particularly with Dragon types that resist both Grass and Water. The Garchomp killer is to go to move for anything that resists your STABs. 10% freeze chance can also swing a battle in your direction if you happen to get lucky.
Fake Out is crazy useful for this team. One example of its usefulness is when dealing with Electric types. A common play is to Fake Out the Electric type and Scald with Pelipper, then clean up next turn with Ludicolo. Any breathing room is appreciated, and Fake Out relieves a lot of pressure.
Salamence (M)
@ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate ==> Aerialate
Level: 50
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Hyper Voice
- Double-Edge
- Protect
Ability: Intimidate ==> Aerialate
Level: 50
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Hyper Voice
- Double-Edge
- Protect
HP: 170
Attack: 161
Defense: 100
Sp. Atk: 157
Sp. Def: 90
Speed: 167
Attack: 161
Defense: 100
Sp. Atk: 157
Sp. Def: 90
Speed: 167
HP: 170
Attack: 171
Defense: 150
Sp. Atk: 167
Sp. Def: 99
Speed: 189
Attack: 171
Defense: 150
Sp. Atk: 167
Sp. Def: 99
Speed: 189
This is a Salamence I've used before, so I'm copy pasting most of this and explaining some changes.
The first thing of note about Salamence is his ability Initmidate. Just 1 attack drop can make all the difference in a battle, and because he sits in the back, it doesn't activate any competitive/defiant abilities from Milotic, Bisharp, Tornadus, or Thundurus. Salamence is used here to deal with Grass types, which Ludicolo and Kabutops have trouble with, and Fighting types, which threaten Kabutops.
The real reason for using Salamence here is of course his mega evolution. An additional 50 defense makes him a solid response to physical attacks, and with 252 EVs his speed is bumped up to a respectable 189 with a Naive nature. Naive is used to avoid dropping either attacking stat while maximizing speed, but I am actually wondering if a Hasty nature might be preferred to avoid lowering his mediocre special defense even further. Unfortunately there are many threats sitting just above Mega-Salamence in terms of speed, such as Mega-Aerodactyl, Weavile, Ribombee, Greninja, and Noivern, and he ties with important mons like non-mega Alakazam, Kanto Dugtrio, and opposing Mega-Salamence. Ideally, the leads will take care of these, but if they slip to the back two, it could be an issue.
One of the biggest draws to Mega-Salamence is Aerialte-boosted Hyper Voice. Although Aerialte did receive a nerf in Gen 7, a 1.2X bonus in addition to the new found flying STAB moves still hits very hard. The spread Hyper Voice dents the enemy team, with Flying being a less often resisted attacking type. I chose Double-Edge to be able to hit a single target as hard as possible with physical damage. I finally found the reason for the 44 Atk EVs in the XY Battle Spot Doubles guide after the streak was finished, but it is largely irrelevant for this team. It OHKOs Mega-Gardevior with 252 HP/4 Def 62.5% of the time, so I've got that going for me. The remaining EVs are dumped into special attack.
I chose Earthquake over Flamethrower since I do negligible damage in the rain with non-STAB Fire attacks. Earthquake manages to hit Steel types, and heavy Flying attacks usually do enough against Scizor and Ferrothorn to avoid issue. The biggest beneift here is against Eletric types, seeing as the rest of the team struggles against them, and Flying type attacks are also resisted. Protect is Protect.
Kabutops (M)
@ Rockium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
- Stone Edge
- Liquidation
- Low Kick
- Protect
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
- Stone Edge
- Liquidation
- Low Kick
- Protect
HP: 140
Atk: 183
Def: 126
Sp. Atk: 76
Sp. Def: 91
Speed: 127
Atk: 183
Def: 126
Sp. Atk: 76
Sp. Def: 91
Speed: 127
And finally, we come to the most interesting member of the team. No other mon better exemplifies hyper-offensive rain than Kabutops. He sports a workable base Def of 105, but with 60 HP and 70 Sp. Def, he won't stand up to many hits. His 115 Atk is noth ing to scoff at, and his base 80 speed in rain outpaces common Swift Swim users like Ludiclolo and Mega-Swampert. The reason to use Kabutops over other rain sweepers (other than how incredibly cool he is) is his Rock typing. The tree has a wide varitey of annoying Flying and Ice types, which are quickly dismantled by our reisedent horseshoe crab.
I went with an Adamant nature as the extra speed from Jolly would just be overkill at this point, and the extra oomph really helps. Swift Swim is required for a rain team. For Evs, I went with max Atk and 212 Spe to bring my speed stat to 127. That magical number when doubled is 254, which outspeeds the menacing Scarf-Chomp by a point. I took a freebie point in both defenses, and put the rest into HP for a little bit of bulk.
Liquidation is the Water type move of choice. Its 85 power and 20% chance of lowering defense is more useful to this team than the 80 power and 20% flinch chance of Waterfall. That extra 5 power often makes more of a difference that you would expect. If you take the multipliers into account (1.5x STAB and 1.5x rain boost), their base powers are 191.25 and 180, respectively. That can be the difference between OHKOing a threat and getting blown up by a return attack. The flinch chance is missed, but the 20% defense drop is useful for brute forcing yourself through resisting targets.
In some of my early iterations of the team, I was using Kabutops in the lead spot with a Focus Sash, Swords Dance, and Rock Slide in this slot. I really was a fan of it and would have continued to test with it had it not been for the previously mentioned Hydro Pump-Scald snafu with Ludicolo. Once I lost my Z-move on Ludicolo, I decided to move my Z-crystal to Kabutops. Losing the Focus Sash forced me to give up Swords Dance as I did not have enough durability to safely set up. I swapped him to the back to keep him safe until needed. Despite how much I loved the spread and flinch utility of Rock Slide, the damage output was lacking, especially with the Z-move. Using Stone Edge as my Rock move of choice boosted the power of Continental Crush from a palty 140 to a massive 180. This improved nuke was great for taking down bulky Flying types like Mandibuzz and Zapdos, and also helped deal with evasion boosters like Cresselia and...Zapdos. Stone Edge on its own is a mixed bag. 100 power is great, 80% accuracy not so much. The boosted crit chance portion actually saved me a couple of times. Once it netted me a huge KO on something I wasn't expecting, and once it managed to break through an opponent with boosted defense.
This slot used to have Swords Dance. I really missed it over the run. Kabutops at +2 tears through almost everything. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough opportunities for it to set up. I really was not in love with any move here once I gave up the Focus Sash. Aqua Jet is okay for priority, but you outspeed almost everything, and if you are in Trick Room you have bigger problems. Night Slash was okay for dealing with mons like Gourgeist and Trevenant, but they should be taken care of by Pelipper anyway. X-Scissor is okay, but faced the same issues as Night Slash. Rarely will it do more damage to Psychic or Dark types than Liquidation or Stone Edge would, and Grass types are better dealt with by Pelipper. Knock Off utility is great, but Kabutops should be dealing damage. That left me with Superpower and Low Kick. I chose Low Kick to hit Bisharp and Tyranitar out of rain, as the stat drops from Superpower were too much.
Protect is Protect.
I'll freely admit Kabutops is not a phemomenal pokemon, and even that he is outclassed by other rain sweepers (namely Mega-Swampert). But I'm very happy I managed to make one of my favorites work and get him onto the leaderboard.
Battle Videos
Not going to go too deep into analysis here, but I've got a bunch of battle videos showing the team in action.
HHSG-WWWW-WWWZ-6V3D - Against a fast, full electric team.
3CJG-WWWW-WWWZ-6V6X - Against Blue, resetting rain + spooky Alakazam.
AABW-WWWW-WWWZ-6V7L - Lost rain and Pelipper turn 1.
HXKW-WWWW-WWWZ-6VAA - Played terribly against full legendary team, miracle win.
6T3W-WWWW-WWWZ-6VGW - Against a stupid fast team, Ludicolo hard carry after some dicey situations.
RT6W-WWWW-WWWZ-6VY8 - Beefy Regis with Electric attacks. Yikes.
47EW-WWWW-WWWZ-6VKR - Against Colress, Pelipper Protect baits MVP.
AJTG-WWWW-WWWZ-6VRD - Featuring Hail, Mega Salamence missing the 62.5% chance Double-Edge OHKO on Mega-Gardevoir (damn you EVs), and nightmare Minimize Toxic Blissey. Bless no-miss Hurricane.
5ENG-WWWW-WWWZ-6VS9 - The loss. Played bad. Should've sent Kabutops to take out Togekiss right away.
Conclusion
Kabutops is on the leaderboard. I am happy. Thanks for reading everyone!
Future Teams
I'll hide this part so it won't clutter up the post, but take a peak and give me some input!
So I've really run out of direction and steam for the battle tree. I have a ton of half baked ideas and streaks that end around 70 or 80. Where should I go next? I'm not a huge fan of singles, but does anyone recommend Multis? Human or AI partnered?
Here are some of the teams I have been running casually or have semi-theory crafted, think any of these are worth pursuing?
- A Sand team with M-Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, Excadrill, and Zapdos. I noticed there wasn't really any sand team on the leaderboard (although I believe one was just posted this last week) so I gave this a shot. Consistently gets 60+ then collapses. I like my sets and the team, don't know if this is bad play or bad luck.
- A TR team similar team to Josh C.'s recent 1800+ streak team, featuring a setter and a fire/water/grass core. I've tried using a mix of Cresselia/Oranguru/Gardevoir, Incineroar/Quiet Heatran, min speed Tapu Bulu, and Gastrodon. I really loved this team initially and thought it would go very far. Unfortunately I just could never get it to work. Plus with a fairly similar team with a monster streak I feel a bit demotivated to try it lol.
- This team is still theoretical and in the stalled process of breeding. I managed to breed a perfect shiny Gengar and a perfect shiny Whimsicott, but with almost no egg moves. Oops. In addition to my shiny Incineroar, I almost have a full Kommo team that is popular in VGC (albeit without some important egg moves). Can I make this team work without Perish Song or Disable, or Encore or Fake Tears?
- In a similar vein, is it possible to build a functioning Perish Trap team? I've never tried this archetype at all so I'm not sure how viable it would be in the battle tree. I've got pieces of a team coming together with some combination of M-Gengar (with egg moves!), Gothitelle, Scrafty, A-Persian,
Amoonguss, Politoed, whoever. Any thoughts?
- I made a sun team with Charizard-Y and Venusar leads, but didn't find it that fun or strong. I also messed with Pledge sets here but it didn't feel very good. My back two here were Scarf Eruption Typhlosion and Garchomp. Can this team be improved upon enough to be worth running?
- The last team I'll mention is one I found the coolest. It's fairly gimmicky, but feels like it might be able to work. It starts with Tapu Lele and Unburden Accelgor with Psychic Seed (I did it first VGC). My love of Lele remains strong as ever, and Accelgor is a good complement with Bug Buzz to hit Psychic and Dark types, Acid Spray to shred Sp. Def, and Final Gambit for a 187 HP nuke. Then I added Choice Scarf Staraptor for Intimidate and another, even stronger Final Gambit. Who needs matchups and speed control when you go fast and nuke everything. Lastly I went with Pheromosa just because I am comfortable with PheroLele. Any thoughts on this team?
Thanks for taking a look at this section of the post. Curious to hear what you think.
Here are some of the teams I have been running casually or have semi-theory crafted, think any of these are worth pursuing?
- A Sand team with M-Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, Excadrill, and Zapdos. I noticed there wasn't really any sand team on the leaderboard (although I believe one was just posted this last week) so I gave this a shot. Consistently gets 60+ then collapses. I like my sets and the team, don't know if this is bad play or bad luck.
- A TR team similar team to Josh C.'s recent 1800+ streak team, featuring a setter and a fire/water/grass core. I've tried using a mix of Cresselia/Oranguru/Gardevoir, Incineroar/Quiet Heatran, min speed Tapu Bulu, and Gastrodon. I really loved this team initially and thought it would go very far. Unfortunately I just could never get it to work. Plus with a fairly similar team with a monster streak I feel a bit demotivated to try it lol.
- This team is still theoretical and in the stalled process of breeding. I managed to breed a perfect shiny Gengar and a perfect shiny Whimsicott, but with almost no egg moves. Oops. In addition to my shiny Incineroar, I almost have a full Kommo team that is popular in VGC (albeit without some important egg moves). Can I make this team work without Perish Song or Disable, or Encore or Fake Tears?
- In a similar vein, is it possible to build a functioning Perish Trap team? I've never tried this archetype at all so I'm not sure how viable it would be in the battle tree. I've got pieces of a team coming together with some combination of M-Gengar (with egg moves!), Gothitelle, Scrafty, A-Persian,
Amoonguss, Politoed, whoever. Any thoughts?
- I made a sun team with Charizard-Y and Venusar leads, but didn't find it that fun or strong. I also messed with Pledge sets here but it didn't feel very good. My back two here were Scarf Eruption Typhlosion and Garchomp. Can this team be improved upon enough to be worth running?
- The last team I'll mention is one I found the coolest. It's fairly gimmicky, but feels like it might be able to work. It starts with Tapu Lele and Unburden Accelgor with Psychic Seed (I did it first VGC). My love of Lele remains strong as ever, and Accelgor is a good complement with Bug Buzz to hit Psychic and Dark types, Acid Spray to shred Sp. Def, and Final Gambit for a 187 HP nuke. Then I added Choice Scarf Staraptor for Intimidate and another, even stronger Final Gambit. Who needs matchups and speed control when you go fast and nuke everything. Lastly I went with Pheromosa just because I am comfortable with PheroLele. Any thoughts on this team?
Thanks for taking a look at this section of the post. Curious to hear what you think.
Congrats on the rain streak you got with Kabutops there! Really neat writeup, though just having Stone Edge scares me to be honest. However, what really interested me were the other team ideas you've had, especially that second one involving Mega Gengar and Kommo-o. I guess the core you built up is really common in VGC or something, cause I came up with it as well a little while back, just with Charjabug in place of Whimsicott. I will have to say, speed control and sort of the safety of Kommo-o became my main priority for most battles that I had, bar a few. However, Fairies especially were a big problem for the team, with Gengar being so frail and some even carrying Psychic for coverage. And that ignores what they can do to Kommo-o.
I do think the team can survive without Gengar's Egg Moves, as those are a little more situational, something that Gengar generally won't survive to see time to use those moves. However, both Encore and Fake Tears sound really good, to help shut down certain Pokemon temporarily or do even more damage than say Helping Hand could do. The team should still function fine though, even without it, as I'd imagine Whimsicott has plenty of other things it could do to provide support, like Tailwind, Taunt, Helping Hand, Safeguard, and all sorts of other tools.
I don't know how well Perish Trap could work, as the two Pokemon that have both aren't really the bulkiest things ever. It would be interesting to see, but it would likely need a lot of defensive synergy and ways to fall back if something doesn't get set up. You'd also need something to take care of Soundproof Pokemon like Exploud and Electrode though.
I've heard about Accelgor/Lele a few times lately, and it seems like something really fun to try out. However, I feel like having two Final Gambit Pokemon is a little overkill and risky, especially the Choice Scarf Staraptor. For Staraptor, the whole EV distribution I find to be quite a problem. If you wanted a good Attack in case you can't use Final Gambit, you miss out on speed or a stronger Final Gambit. Same idea to the Speed and HP, just with the other two stats. Accelgor can get away with it due to Unburden and extra support it can give from Acid Spray, Encore, etc., but Staraptor doesn't really provide too much else after Intimidate, just damage. Pheromosa back is also odd, but to me it just seems far too frail to be in the back. What could take it's place, I don't really know though.
Everything else I don't have as much knowledge in, though they do seem promising, having seen other variants of the concept. Good luck with figuring them all out, if you get around to all of them!
Allow me to give you some feedback on your 2 ideas that I have quite some experience on since i'm the only person crazy enough to attempt to run weather-based teams that arent Rain:
Sadly, the fact it sets Sand also screws the option of using a sash co-lead like Greninja or a squishy fake outer, as it will also break sash, though you can namely use a Unnerve Tyranitar to go around it, or can use Togedemaru if you don't mind *another* EQ weakness.
Also, it inevitably stacks weaknesses to common spread moves (EQ and Surf most notably) with any Sand Rush sweeper you want to use, on top of also sadly having problems with the stabs they provide (Excadrill for example either forces you in a inaccurate Drill Run, Earthquake which hits your team as well, or Stomping Tantrum which while equal power to EQ on one target is still quite lacking, on top of also lacking coverage as you only have access to poison jab and x-scissor if you don't want to risk inaccurate stone moves.
Spoilers: Shiftry does Venusaur's job better.
Chari Y lead has a big issue when it comes to Clorophyl, and it's that you don't get Chloro boost turn 1, which punishes Venusaur very hard.
It also has one less important but still significant drawback compared to non-mega setters: you need to Mega in order to get Drought, which in some cases forces you in a T1 protect play.
I've done a lot of tests with M-Tyranitar and I came to one conclusion: it requires excessive amount of support to be functional as lead. Even with all the natural bulk it comes with, it's still sitting on a disastrous defensive typing as far as tree goes, a mediocre speed tier, and an inaccurate stab. You incurr in a terrifying 4MSS where you either go ddance + 2 attacks and Protect (leaving you to pick what will wall you) or just accept you'll take hits to the face and expecially status if you don't run a boosting move.
Sadly, the fact it sets Sand also screws the option of using a sash co-lead like Greninja or a squishy fake outer, as it will also break sash, though you can namely use a Unnerve Tyranitar to go around it, or can use Togedemaru if you don't mind *another* EQ weakness.
Also, it inevitably stacks weaknesses to common spread moves (EQ and Surf most notably) with any Sand Rush sweeper you want to use, on top of also sadly having problems with the stabs they provide (Excadrill for example either forces you in a inaccurate Drill Run, Earthquake which hits your team as well, or Stomping Tantrum which while equal power to EQ on one target is still quite lacking, on top of also lacking coverage as you only have access to poison jab and x-scissor if you don't want to risk inaccurate stone moves.
You might find that I've got some experience with Scarf Eruption shenenigans and unsurprisingly it does feature almost the same mons.
Spoilers: Shiftry does Venusaur's job better.
Chari Y lead has a big issue when it comes to Clorophyl, and it's that you don't get Chloro boost turn 1, which punishes Venusaur very hard.
It also has one less important but still significant drawback compared to non-mega setters: you need to Mega in order to get Drought, which in some cases forces you in a T1 protect play.
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For that sand team, you could try Gyarados over Zapdos to cover the water weakness a bit. Types are covered very nicely then. Z-EQ on Excadrill should be fine with one flying partner and Protect on Tyranitar.
M-Tyranitars Crunch (or Life Orb Crunch, if you want the Mega Stone on Gyara) kills many Trickroom setters (maybe with a little Dazzling Gleam from Lele), and Scarf Leles Psychic takes care of the big majority of Fighting Types (even uninvested Terrakion in Sand). If you play a Tyranitar that underspeeds Pelipper/Politoed you also dont have to deal with that deadly weather in turn one.
To me that seems like a viable combination.
M-Tyranitars Crunch (or Life Orb Crunch, if you want the Mega Stone on Gyara) kills many Trickroom setters (maybe with a little Dazzling Gleam from Lele), and Scarf Leles Psychic takes care of the big majority of Fighting Types (even uninvested Terrakion in Sand). If you play a Tyranitar that underspeeds Pelipper/Politoed you also dont have to deal with that deadly weather in turn one.
To me that seems like a viable combination.
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Believe me Stone Edge was a nightmare to play around. Really does a number on the longevity of the team, as a tragic miss is bound to happen sooner rather than later. The good news was I rarely had to use it over Liquidation, and I had one get out of jail free card in the Z-move.
Thanks for all the input! Definitely a lot to think about. It'll probably take a ton of trial and error, but I'll get something really different on the board.
That's been my experience with M-Tar too. It just feels like it should work so much better than it does. I initially did try to give up protect assuming that bulk would be enough, but like you said that's not always the case. Especially when it comes to Fighting types and coverage he just crumbles. I will say though that Scarf Lele as the opposite lead feels very good in this case. She cleans up Fighting types with ease and oftentimes provides enough pressure to get Ttar to +1. I guess my biggest issue with the team really has been Excadrill. That damage output is just so lacking without Swords Dance but this team doesn't really have the luxury to set up. I've tried Sash, Z-move, and Life Orb sets and none of them have felt up to snuff. I could replace him but at that point it really isn't a sand team. Maybe abandoning the sand archetype all together is the answer, and just building a team off TtarLele could work? Or abandoning Ttar altogether and trying something like Hippowdon to set?
I took a lot of inspiration from your sun team with a few changes. First off my Charizard-Y was Modest and very bulky with a spread of 244 HP / 60 Def / 44 SpA / 4 SpD / 156 Spe. I would have to research again what exactly I calced those for, but I thought it felt pretty good. I also ran Heat Wave as my main STAB. I've been playing around with trying a Pledge combo here, but the biggest issue is that Charizard will move before Venusaur, losing the STAB on the massive 150 power nuke. The chip from the sea of fire effect feels pretty strong, picking up a lot of KOs that would otherwise sit around for another turn. Since I haven't spent much time using Zard-Y, I am not used to the interaction with Chlorophyll turn 1. This is infuriating lol. The Protect play just saps all momentum. Maybe the next gen that'll change and weather post-"turn 0" but pre-turn 1 will trigger speed boosting abilities. The other thing I implemented was HP Ground onto Tyhphlosion. Didn't run into anything like Heatran to test it out on, so data inconclusive. I actually did think about Shiftry for Fake Out pressure, but man those stats are just not great. I really think the biggest issue with the team is lack of diverse moves. Everything runs Fire or Grass and then ??? Sludge Bomb on Venusaur is pointless since you beat Grass and Fairy can't touch you. HP Ice is nice but it forces Venusaur to run Life Orb to get meaningful damage out of it.
The latest member I've thought of implementing is a bit gimmicky, but I'd lick your thoughts on it. I was thinking of moving Typhlosion to the lead, and using a supportive Leavanny along with a bulkier Garchomp. She still gets the speed and sun boosted Solar Beam, but her support move pool is great. Namely Helping Hand, but interestingly enough, Entrainment. The thought of a bulky Chlorophyll Garchomp makes me shiver. What do you think? Workable or too gimmicky?
I like that idea a lot actually, as Zapdos always felt better on paper than in practice. If I have a Gyarados with a good set on it laying around I'll have to test that out.
Thanks again for reading all!
I've done a few experimentations with Charizard, one of which did feature a bulky version which had Tailwind but it just exacerbated even further the turn 1 issue and atrocious vulnerability to Rock Slide. Let's be honest Charizard dies to anything that has Rock in it even with full defensive investment, it even dies to CARBINK's power gem. Sitting on 100 speed tier and being weak to rock and electric is not going to ever let it setup anything.
For reference, I've re-started using Eruption based comps recently
Smaug (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 198 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
Brioche (Entei) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Extrasensory
Actual Dragon (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Protect
Shinfry (Shiftry) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Protect
Ability: Blaze
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 198 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
Brioche (Entei) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Extrasensory
Actual Dragon (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Protect
Shinfry (Shiftry) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Protect
252+ Atk Bronzong Rock Slide vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 136-160 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And that's really the only notable Rock Slide I was able to survive and that I actually needed to survive T1.
Still, wanting to be realistic, any attempt to swap a skill or get a setup move on a hyperaggressive team like this is not going anywhere: you both waste sun turns, and also have a very vulnerable comp that rarely if ever can afford to spend a turn not killing something or risk the AI getting a setup or status off itself.
Oh and
note that this also affects the AI in similar ways: opposer Clorophil users will not get the Chloro boost turn 1, and if the AI has another weather active before you mega AND a swift swimmer / slush rush / sand rush mon as well, they *are* getting the speed boost turn 1.
You see, I faced the same dilemma: I could have used other stuff aside from Tyranitar, but at that point, it's not a "sand" team anymore, it's just M-Tar + another 3 mons. Sand itself also doesn't even give defensive benefits to non rock types compared to sun/rain which at least neuter some offensive types / provide bonus to certain moves of other mons.
I've found Gigalith however to be a pretty strong "lead setup", it has access to powerful moves for a Sand based comp like Wide Guard and Gravity which neuter both the vulnerability to opposer Surf / EQ / Blizzard, and the necessity of inaccurate moves, on top of also potentially ignoring fliers/levitaters immunity to Earthquake, while also having very strong bulk of its own (it's very hard to 1hko without a Z move or very strong supereffective stab), actually strong offensive power, and also completely prevents the AI from setting TR against you... if you can keep him alive, I suppose.
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I never even thought about that. That's maddening.
I've been tossing around the idea this morning of a combination TR and sand team with Gigalith + TR lead and Mega Steelix in the back as the sand abuser. Any thoughts? I haven't thought of who I would use as the TR setter or who the fourth would be, but I think that might be my best bet at making sand work.
I will just say 3 words: Bronzong, Gravity and ReptoAbysmal
Ah I remembered I wanted to look at Bronzong as a setter thanks for reminding me
If Gravity and Mega Steelix/Gigalith are your MO then Musharna is the optimal setter. HH plus Sand Force will manage to net OHKOs on many bulkier targets. It also gives Steelix more freedom with EQ and an answer to Rotoms. Gigalith HH Explosion is also extremely abusable.
Awesome I was looking at Telepathy Musharna I'm glad that wasn't a ridiculous thing to think. I think I'm gonna give some variation of this team a go