Already started teamuilding around Dracozolt - then i realised Darmanitan-G isnt on the banlist. Without Cinderace, Mimikyu or Dragapult to outspeed/stop it, I reckon it will be a top threat.
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Singles 3v3 Singles (BSS) Discussion
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So they announced the band list for the Series 6 online set. Can't use Venusaur, Gyarados, Porygon2, Tyranitar, Torkoal, Hippowdon, Magnezone, Togekiss, Excadrill, Whimsicott, Incineroar, Mimikyu, Rillaboom, Cinderace, Indeedee, or Dragapult. Should be really interesting in both formats.
Get ready for Dracozolt’s reign of terror lol. No Dragapult, Excadrill, or Porygon2 can only help it here.
For singles as well ? Don’t think they’ve ever banned anything ...
Well, I'm glad I saw this before I went full throttle again.
I'm kinda torn on this. To say the current #1 Libero Cinderace is comically OP would be an understatement and I will admit that he was a major contributing factor to why I took a break. This is to say nothing of several other threats on that list who are polarizing in their own right. On the other hand, after blazing through building over half-a-dozen teams (another reason I took a break,) I was hoping my return would have a more settled meta that I could confidently theorycraft around. Clearly, that isn't going to be the case now, lol. Plus I can totally understand people not liking it based on principle alone, though thankfully I'm not deeply attached to anything on that list (somehow Rotom escaped the ban, heh.)
Ultimately, I'm more optimistic than apprehensive. I'm glad they went all-in and nixed so many threats as opposed to just drip-banning one or two at a time; if it's going to be done, I'm glad its truly tectonic as opposed to just a tremor. Time will tell if we just end up with a "bootleg Cinderace" and an equally annoying meta, but for now this is an even bigger breath of fresh air for me than the Armor of Isle gang was.
I'm kinda torn on this. To say the current #1 Libero Cinderace is comically OP would be an understatement and I will admit that he was a major contributing factor to why I took a break. This is to say nothing of several other threats on that list who are polarizing in their own right. On the other hand, after blazing through building over half-a-dozen teams (another reason I took a break,) I was hoping my return would have a more settled meta that I could confidently theorycraft around. Clearly, that isn't going to be the case now, lol. Plus I can totally understand people not liking it based on principle alone, though thankfully I'm not deeply attached to anything on that list (somehow Rotom escaped the ban, heh.)
Ultimately, I'm more optimistic than apprehensive. I'm glad they went all-in and nixed so many threats as opposed to just drip-banning one or two at a time; if it's going to be done, I'm glad its truly tectonic as opposed to just a tremor. Time will tell if we just end up with a "bootleg Cinderace" and an equally annoying meta, but for now this is an even bigger breath of fresh air for me than the Armor of Isle gang was.
Without Cinderace, Tyranitar, and Hippowdown, I could see Alolan Ninetales + Alolan Sandslash be very devastating, since those were primary answers to those cores.
I'm a visual learner and I hope I don't take an L for this, but I copypasted the sprites from the viability ranks with the banned Pokemon removed on the list just to have an easier time seeing what our options in this meta are...
Might help someone when picking their team, lol idk.
Might help someone when picking their team, lol idk.
Clef Kee Berry 252 hp/def is potentially a good counter to Dracozolt.
I dont know what to feel about these bans, i'm excited for a new metagame but i'm sad for my lovely Magnezone. :(
Here's two Pokemon I could totally see roaring back with a vengance under these bans.
Galarian Darmanitan: Cinderace and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide were the primary reasons for Galarian Darrmanitan having a massive drop in usage. With those two gone, I expect to be seeing it a lot more again. It also helps that it outspeeds Dracozolt!
Durant: Yeah, the OTHER Hustlemon! Cinderace really oblilerated this thing's usage. While I don't expect it to be as common as Dracozolt, Durant is quite a bit faster (most notably, faster than Urshifu and Volcarona), and it has the coverage to be pretty difficult to handle.
Galarian Darmanitan: Cinderace and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide were the primary reasons for Galarian Darrmanitan having a massive drop in usage. With those two gone, I expect to be seeing it a lot more again. It also helps that it outspeeds Dracozolt!
Durant: Yeah, the OTHER Hustlemon! Cinderace really oblilerated this thing's usage. While I don't expect it to be as common as Dracozolt, Durant is quite a bit faster (most notably, faster than Urshifu and Volcarona), and it has the coverage to be pretty difficult to handle.
As someone who likes to get creative with lures and counterplay, I've been trying to analyze the ripple effects this ban will have for Ranked Series 6 and I've drawn some early conclusions. I like theorycrafting, so take this as you will.
1. The potential death of the Max Airstream era.
There are two major factors. First and most obvious, we lost the big three of Airstream users in Cinderace, Togekiss and Gyarados (four if you want to throw Dragapult in there.) The trio was in the top ten because out of most users, they had the biggest snowball potential. Now, just because they're gone doesn't mean we don't have other Airstream candidates, but that leads us to the second contributing factor: Dracozolt. The big three above all had ways to effectively check and manage Dracozolt; losing those checks to me is more signficant than the defensive ones we lost. Of the Airstream users that remain, who can stand up to the thunder dino? What does Braviary have? Or Talonflame? Or Charizard? I don't think they can comfortably snowball past Dracozolt like the others could, especially when you consider the disparity in support/setup required among these pokes. All of this is on top of the fact that these mons are exploitable by Rotom-W and Rotom-H (except maybe Braviary,) who in my opinion are both poised to see an uptick in usage as well. If Dracozolt takes the top of the hill like some are predicting, its Electric-type presence could effectively shoot down the speed-boosting meta we all know and... love? Hate? Eh, you decide.
If Airstream is relegated to niche status, a potential ripple effect this will have is that raw speed stats will return to being prime real estate, as opposed to just "do I have Airstream or not?" Its true that Dracozolt can still be carrying Airstream itself, but its has less luxury to spam it as opposed to the big three who all got STAB. I suspect naturally fast Pokemon like Durant, Galarian Darmanitan, Haxorus and maybe even Hydreigon could all be in line to make a comeback. The bottom line here is that it won't be as easy to boost past these mons without more deliberate setup.
2. The great exodus of Fairies and Ghosts.
This has actually started already with Mimikyu's recent fall from glory, but its about to be accentuated by fairy Togekiss and ghost Dragapult joining its sad state of affairs. There are still good choices for these types available (Primarina, Azumarill, Aegislash, etc.,) but none of these have the same centralizing presence. While Flying-types look like they could be on the way out, Fightning, Dragon and even Dark-types could be on the rise.
Fighting-types in particular have reason to be dancing in the street: three out of four of their resists/immunities are taking huge hits. While a lot of attention is on Dracozolt, I think Urshifu Single-Strike is in a similar position to take BSS by storm. Dark and Dragon also stand to benefit from being more offensively spammable in a post-Togekiss/Mimikyu world. Personally, my eye is on Haxorus, who not only benefits from these bans (Iron Tail isn't borderline mandatory now) but is in prime position to fill gaps left by Excadrill and Gyarados with access to Mold Breaker and Dragon Dance.
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Things are looking very interesting indeed.
1. The potential death of the Max Airstream era.
There are two major factors. First and most obvious, we lost the big three of Airstream users in Cinderace, Togekiss and Gyarados (four if you want to throw Dragapult in there.) The trio was in the top ten because out of most users, they had the biggest snowball potential. Now, just because they're gone doesn't mean we don't have other Airstream candidates, but that leads us to the second contributing factor: Dracozolt. The big three above all had ways to effectively check and manage Dracozolt; losing those checks to me is more signficant than the defensive ones we lost. Of the Airstream users that remain, who can stand up to the thunder dino? What does Braviary have? Or Talonflame? Or Charizard? I don't think they can comfortably snowball past Dracozolt like the others could, especially when you consider the disparity in support/setup required among these pokes. All of this is on top of the fact that these mons are exploitable by Rotom-W and Rotom-H (except maybe Braviary,) who in my opinion are both poised to see an uptick in usage as well. If Dracozolt takes the top of the hill like some are predicting, its Electric-type presence could effectively shoot down the speed-boosting meta we all know and... love? Hate? Eh, you decide.
If Airstream is relegated to niche status, a potential ripple effect this will have is that raw speed stats will return to being prime real estate, as opposed to just "do I have Airstream or not?" Its true that Dracozolt can still be carrying Airstream itself, but its has less luxury to spam it as opposed to the big three who all got STAB. I suspect naturally fast Pokemon like Durant, Galarian Darmanitan, Haxorus and maybe even Hydreigon could all be in line to make a comeback. The bottom line here is that it won't be as easy to boost past these mons without more deliberate setup.
2. The great exodus of Fairies and Ghosts.
This has actually started already with Mimikyu's recent fall from glory, but its about to be accentuated by fairy Togekiss and ghost Dragapult joining its sad state of affairs. There are still good choices for these types available (Primarina, Azumarill, Aegislash, etc.,) but none of these have the same centralizing presence. While Flying-types look like they could be on the way out, Fightning, Dragon and even Dark-types could be on the rise.
Fighting-types in particular have reason to be dancing in the street: three out of four of their resists/immunities are taking huge hits. While a lot of attention is on Dracozolt, I think Urshifu Single-Strike is in a similar position to take BSS by storm. Dark and Dragon also stand to benefit from being more offensively spammable in a post-Togekiss/Mimikyu world. Personally, my eye is on Haxorus, who not only benefits from these bans (Iron Tail isn't borderline mandatory now) but is in prime position to fill gaps left by Excadrill and Gyarados with access to Mold Breaker and Dragon Dance.
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Things are looking very interesting indeed.
No it isn’t.....
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Dracozolt Max Lightning (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-207 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (12.5% chance to OHKO after accuracy)
252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 227-269 (112.3 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So it can’t switch in and has to dynamax, take 60% and kill with Max Starfall. Seems very favourable for the Dracozolt user lol
Diggersby and Rhyperior get a lot better as ways to absorb a Dracozolt Bolt Beak on offensive teams. The former is probably one of the few good Airstream users left and is worth Dynamax since you are not so scared of getting revenge killed by Grassy Glide. There are still enough serviceable Ground-types around where having a Bolt Beak switch-in should not be too restrictive. Charizard will be a decent Airstream user, you can just Wyrmwind or Quake the Dracozolt. You do have to watch out for Scarf Zolt though.
More defensive mons such as Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Snorlax should see more usage and be a lot better, though for Snorlax, there might be too many Urshifu running around for it to terrorize us with the YawnTect set. Stall as a playstyle might be viable as well. You still have to contend with the timer but the big snowbally offensive threats are all gone. You might have to go full stall instead of something like 5 stall mons + 1 offensive mon since that 1 offensive mon was usually something like Dragapult or Togekiss. Overall it should be a fun metagame before the chaos that will probably ensue during Crown Tundra.
More defensive mons such as Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Snorlax should see more usage and be a lot better, though for Snorlax, there might be too many Urshifu running around for it to terrorize us with the YawnTect set. Stall as a playstyle might be viable as well. You still have to contend with the timer but the big snowbally offensive threats are all gone. You might have to go full stall instead of something like 5 stall mons + 1 offensive mon since that 1 offensive mon was usually something like Dragapult or Togekiss. Overall it should be a fun metagame before the chaos that will probably ensue during Crown Tundra.
Musings on 3v3 win conditions:
There are many common win conditions in 3v3 matches. While no means conclusive, I intend to talk about the most prominent ones here. While metagame-dependent resources like analyses and viability ranks need to be constantly updated to be most useful, I hope that this is a resource most people can take advantage of no matter how they shift the meta after Crown Tundra and more, as long as Dynamax stays in the game.
Pokemon may be banned, or new Pokemon may be introduced to the format. However, common gameplay patterns as these will not go away until the Dynamax mechanic itself is removed. I hope this is a longer-lasting resource for everyone in these difficult times to update our resources with the ever-shifting patches Game Freak loves to use to artificially shift the metagame.
Until next time, see ya.
There are many common win conditions in 3v3 matches. While no means conclusive, I intend to talk about the most prominent ones here. While metagame-dependent resources like analyses and viability ranks need to be constantly updated to be most useful, I hope that this is a resource most people can take advantage of no matter how they shift the meta after Crown Tundra and more, as long as Dynamax stays in the game.
- Dynamax-First, Clean Up-Second
This first must mean you have an attacker that actually has a decent matchup against the opponent, requiring minimal chip to be effective. Here's a reason why I said "types of win conditions" as opposed to types of teams. While things like "balance" and "stall" or "hyper offense" is pretty much decided in team preview and there's very little control of how your team is meant to play out in previous generations, it is no longer the case in the dynamax Gen 8 metagame. For instance, in a vacuum with no further information, Cinderace is a good Pokemon for Dynamax first and just brainlessly attack. But what if they have an Arcanine? Your Dynamax is going to be cushioned off, and you are going to waste it without getting anything done: a crippling disadvantage. Thus, you have to have a Dynamax Pokemon that has good overall matchup - something that cannot be hardwalled by the opponent, hedging for what they have unrevealed in the back - because that's what "dynamaxing first" often entails - Dynamaxing without having full information on the opponents' team.
https://pokepast.es/9d52523390575331
Ryuna's Dynamax-First Whimsicott team.
If building a team with this type of win condition in mind, it's important to have Pokemon that excel when there are one or two KOs taken in your favor. It can mean winning 1v1s in the back - ideally 1v1s against Dynamax Pokemon if you can afford it, using things like Counter / Mirror Coat to counter Dynamax Pokemon, Perish Song endgame Azumarill as seen here, and more. Another instance as seen here would be speed control. Pokemon like CB Dracovish in Trick Room, Specs Torkoal in Trick Room, or CB Darmanitan in Tailwind is capable of putting out absurd amounts of damage, and with less Pokemon to sack, it's more difficult to counterplay these type of win condition.
It needs to be emphasized that the first Dynamax needs to take a kill, force a counter-dynamax, or ideally both. If they are capable of cushioning your Dynamax with minimal loss, choosing this win path is a massive risk for minimal reward.
- Cushion-First, Dynamax-Second
If you aren't going to Dynamax first, you are going to need to have to cushion it or force them to use it in an awkward position. "Cushions" refer to Pokemon like Hippowdon, Luxray, Porygon2, Intimidate Gyarados, etc. that may not straight up beat the Dynamax Pokemon in question, but at least weather the 3 turns of Max moves. The fact that they cannot set up and only use Max Moves is a big boon. Lapras may beat P2 with Sheer Cold, but P2 can still act as a cushion to Dynamax Lapras.
End of July saw a rise of setup move + chestorest Pokemon, which is an extension of this gameplan. They want to cushion with their Gyarados or Rotom-W, and set up and dynamax at full HP. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
One thing to note is that this type of team, analogue to "cycle" teams of previous generations, come in a wide array of flavors. One type of path this team can take is quite offensive: they can pressure the opponent to expend the initial dynamax with offensive pressure - things like Sash Aegislash, Magnezone, Sash / Scarf Cinderace, and the like.
https://pokepast.es/55b8bc6717c0dcd9
The July 2nd Place team uses this type of offensive pressure gameplay to force a Dynamax first, cushion with Hippowdon and Porygon2, and then sweep with Gyarados, Dragapult, or Togekiss.
These type of teams are quite different from stall-oriented teams, which emphasize their ability to cushion first, and they may have a token Dynamax cleanup Pokemon in the back like Dragapult, which may not even get brought depending on how easily one could wall each offensive threat on the opposing team.
Pokemon may be banned, or new Pokemon may be introduced to the format. However, common gameplay patterns as these will not go away until the Dynamax mechanic itself is removed. I hope this is a longer-lasting resource for everyone in these difficult times to update our resources with the ever-shifting patches Game Freak loves to use to artificially shift the metagame.
Until next time, see ya.
Great post. Out of curiosity, where do you find data for the best teams each month? (e.g. the July 2nd place team).
Thanks!
Just curious, what does that Dracozolt live with the Kee Berry? I might use a similar set next season (as long as the Kee Berry isn’t just for banned stuff lol).
This is from last season but it still kind of works so I'm gonna share it since I'm not really playing anymore. I peaked at #503 on cart and #15 on showdown when I was still playing with it.Dracozolt @ Kee Berry
Ability: Hustle
Level: 50
EVs: 188 Atk / 68 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Outrage
- Low Kick
- Aerial Ace
Can you elaborate on this in relation to the archetype? I'm trying to wrap my head around it, in particular as it relates to Sash mons.
I understand the idea of using something like Sash to initiate CounterCoat trades or to set up something like Rocks, but Sash leads very often trade 1-for-1 by nature. If you trade but don't get the opponent to Dynamax, you and the opponent could still be even on numbers and your ability to cushion has theoretically been decreased. My point being, I see this more likely leading to a Dynamax standoff rather than a "cushion first, Dynamax later" reverse sweep scenario. What piece of the puzzle am I missing?
I have discussed details on the post with 1tp and greil after writing it up, and I think the criticism is valid. Honestly when I first wrote up the thing I debated between whether I should separate out the early pressure Pokemon + dynamax cleaner and cushion + dynamax cleaner. Because while both are seeking a mid-late game dynamax, they do indeed play quite differently. If we wanted to separate both of them, then yes, things like Sash Pokemon would fall more neatly under Pressure into max as vs cushion into max. Even though if you want to win the initial 1v1 against Sash Pokemon, you often have to Dynamax to do so, it's not always the best idea to do so, which is understandable why you often don't draw out their Dynamax first. Against certain teams, it can let them use up their Dynamax first, or against other teams, they aren't under dire enough pressure and they will also save their Dynamax for the late game.
It is worth noting that when I mean Dynamax Second, I don't mean you have to Dynamax after waiting out their Dynamax, so not as in be the second person to Dynamax, but the first phase of your gameplan be cover yourself against a potential early dynamax and try to use it to finish the game. If both sides aim to "Dynamax second" you'll just get into a Dynamax standoff in the late game. If this was the main complaint, then hope that clears it up.
Anyways, I do think separating out the 2 archetypes is not only more accurate, but also reveals a very slight, but interesting, Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic with how each gameplan match up against each other (do note that this will depend on what specific Pokemon are matching up, and that can matter more than this gameplan matchup). Pressure First + Dynamax Second can often get overwhelmed by Max First + Clean Up Second. Your non-dynamax offensive Pokemon don't always get to pose real offensive threat against the x2 HP of Dynamax. Of course, Pokemon matchup advantage like Sash Aegislash vs Dmax Tyranitar will trump gameplan matchup, but if you've used Sash Aegislash offense into LO Gyarados or LO Cinderace maxing turn 1 and you exchange Aegislash for 30% HP on their Max and they have boosts, that's not good. I know I've lost lots of games to lead Gyarados snowballing that way vs my Sash Aegislash. This matchup can potentially lead to devastatingly bad trades, trading 2 mons for just the Dynamax. But, as I already went over, Max First + Clean Up Second can get neutered by a Cushion First + Max Second gameplan. On the other hand, Pressure First + Max Second will let you pressure their cushions without using Dynamax, and it may be possible for you to break through their cushion with your Dynamax. It is analogous to Rushdown > Midrange > Control > Rushdown matchup in other strategy games, and I think that's a cool interaction.
It is worth noting that when I mean Dynamax Second, I don't mean you have to Dynamax after waiting out their Dynamax, so not as in be the second person to Dynamax, but the first phase of your gameplan be cover yourself against a potential early dynamax and try to use it to finish the game. If both sides aim to "Dynamax second" you'll just get into a Dynamax standoff in the late game. If this was the main complaint, then hope that clears it up.
Anyways, I do think separating out the 2 archetypes is not only more accurate, but also reveals a very slight, but interesting, Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic with how each gameplan match up against each other (do note that this will depend on what specific Pokemon are matching up, and that can matter more than this gameplan matchup). Pressure First + Dynamax Second can often get overwhelmed by Max First + Clean Up Second. Your non-dynamax offensive Pokemon don't always get to pose real offensive threat against the x2 HP of Dynamax. Of course, Pokemon matchup advantage like Sash Aegislash vs Dmax Tyranitar will trump gameplan matchup, but if you've used Sash Aegislash offense into LO Gyarados or LO Cinderace maxing turn 1 and you exchange Aegislash for 30% HP on their Max and they have boosts, that's not good. I know I've lost lots of games to lead Gyarados snowballing that way vs my Sash Aegislash. This matchup can potentially lead to devastatingly bad trades, trading 2 mons for just the Dynamax. But, as I already went over, Max First + Clean Up Second can get neutered by a Cushion First + Max Second gameplan. On the other hand, Pressure First + Max Second will let you pressure their cushions without using Dynamax, and it may be possible for you to break through their cushion with your Dynamax. It is analogous to Rushdown > Midrange > Control > Rushdown matchup in other strategy games, and I think that's a cool interaction.
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I had to do a little research on the "Rushdown + Midrange + Control" triangle you mentioned but it was very enlightening, even if its application in other games isn't exactly 1-to-1 to BSS.
If anything, it cemented why Dynamax is so strong and why Rushdown is so good this generation. If we're comparing the triangle to a related genre such as a card game, Dynamax is like getting to play one of your strongest cards whenever you feel like it. Obviously each strategy still gets the benefit of this flexibility, but being "free" and immediately available clearly orients with Rushdown the most. I wonder if Dynamax would be better balanced if there was a 2-3 turn delay before being usable, but then again that could just mean the balance of power would shift to Midrange strats.
There were several other intriguing observations I made, but I'm honestly not sure how to put them into words that won't sound like incoherent babbling, lol. I'll just try to "TL;DR" marilli's archetypes and casually mention some of them, and then you all can tell me how close I am to having the right idea. And also as mentioned earlier, matchups are important if not much more so.
- Dynamax Early (Rushdown) : Win by being fast. Surge your resources up front then use strong backline combo play (normally a hallmark of Control, interestingly enough) to clean up. By quickly stifling your opponent's already limited pool of options (only 3 mons apiece,) bouncing back can be incredibly difficult. Weak against Control teams that can effectively wall/heal off the surge.
- Pressure into Dynamax (Midrange) : Win by being efficient. Move towards the big combo steadily, using team members that can consistently generate value or trade in a wide variety of matchups. That consistent value then (hopefully) translates to an overall advantage that can be used to muscle through. Weak against Rushdown teams that can break setups before they're completed.
- Stall into Dynamax (Control) : Win by preservation. Counteract depletion through strong defense and effective healing. Gain momentum slowly over time, winning either by attrition or by playing your ace when the foe is appropriately weakened. Weak against Midrange teams who can gain momentum without burning resources into Control's passive defense.
I think you need to put Cinderace and Rillaboom on the OP instead of Dragapult and Rillaboom now lol (even though they aren’t allowed in the upcoming season).