Singles 3v3 Singles (BSS) Discussion

This to me just seems like smart play and building by your opponent and poor assessment on your part, this doesn’t make Dynamax uncompetitive. Choice-item users are usually 4 attacks, Dracopult has 2 STABs to use, it revealed a Fire move, what would the fourth move be? Maybe U-turn? But Thunderbolt makes a lot of sense on a Scarf set as it can revenge kill +1 Gyara. This is why Gyara’s post popular item at the moment is Wacan Berry.


I don’t know why people are surprised that it’s best to answer an opponent’s Dynamax with your own Dynamax. The whole story mode teaches you this, the only time they make you fight an in-game Dynamax is with 3 friends, and even then you can Dynamax yourself. Predicting a Dynamax is just going to have to be a skill people learn, just like predicting Z moves in gen 6 or basically any set any mon uses. People aren’t going to Dynamax their worst team member, you’ll be able to predict it when they’re choice-locked into a bad move, or have something that benefits from a max move like the water, fire, fighting, or flying moves.


As someone who very vocally HATED Z moves from day 1 last gen, I am really enjoying the Dynamax mechanic at the moment. I understand it’s all personal preference but I think people need to give learning the mechanic a little more before adamantly hating it.
You certainly have a point, but I still have to say I disagree. The entire situation I mentioned is only one of the possible scenarios that could happen, but for me the main issue here isn't just about Dragapult killing Gyara. What I really don't like is the very fact that Dragapult now has the choice to dynamax and unlock the choice item here. It now has accesses to not only coverage moves like Max Lightning, but STAB moves like Max Wyrmwind and Max Phantasm would impair your power and durability for its teammates through lowering atk and def. It took enough advantage of its speed tier through scarf, and now it has the ability to put even more pressure on the opposing team through dynamaxing? I never liked Z-Moves, but both Mega and Z-Moves actually cost you an item slot instead of actually letting you utilize the mechanic WITH other items (killing scarf pokemons with scarf, and then drops the scarf immediately when the speed threat is gone). I mean, after all, the entire purpose of a scarf pokemon is to deal damage and put pressure on faster pokemons. If you run scarf too to counter me that's perfectly cool but at least now I have your move locked. That's how we've been playing BSS for the past decade, but now it seems like if your lead pokemon died from a choice user, it probably died for essentially nothing.

Running one particular item (wacan berry you mentioned) against an opponent just because of its relatively rare scarf potential is just that absurd to me, since neither Z-Moves nor Mega forced you to run a certain item to counter them, at least not for me. And you certainly don't need a Mega/Z-Move to fight a Mega/Z-Move.

I am actually not to the extent that I "adamantly" hate it, but yes I do have some concerns for it being the main mechanic for this generation. It would certainly be better if dynamaxing could keep the choice users still locked, and dropping some of the other effects like weather changing, breaking protect, unable to be flinched, etc.
 
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Theorymon

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I'm not quite sure what I think about Dynamax yet, but from my play, it almost seems more like a mechanic on par with switching in terms of thought and mindgames compared to say, Z moves or Mega Evolution. It's less "well the point of this mon is to Dynamax" for most mons, and much more adaptable depending on the battle. While there are some Pokemon that pretty obviously take advantage of Dynamax well, like Gyarados... I noticed once I got to master ball tier, Dynamax seemed to diversify beyond "use it on a sweeper or choice locked mon".

For example, a really common Dynamaxer I'm actually noticing is Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn may be a defensive mon, but its moves still do pretty good damage while Dynamaxed, and its a bastard to take down while it has it up! I've also been seeing a lot of Corviknight Dynamaxing, not only for snowballing speed / attack boosts, but also for more defensive plays against my own Dyanamaxed stuff. Mirror Armor really helps here, since so many Max moves cause stat drops of some sort, and Corviknight takes advantage of that pretty well! In general, I've noticed that it seems like a lot of the high ladder folks on cart tend to take advantage of more defensive uses of Dynamax.

Again, I dont really have an essay here since I still gotta play more with Dynamax. At the very least, it's certainly changed my approach to teambuilding this gen!
 
None of the below is really complaining about the brokenness of a mechanic, more just my random musing so humour my general BSS theory spam.

I do agree with the first paragraph Theorymon mentioned. I think you have to change your mindset to an extent since the dynamic of short term decision making is so different. I've heard people touch on this, but not really put it in a specific way.

To boil down USUM BSS Micro into the very simplest components, you have two main actions that you can do in a turn.

1. You click a move
2. You switch

This, when considering what your opponent can do gives four general outcomes each with their own differing probabilities. There's also other aspects such as, what move is going to be clicked, who do you switch to and how does that affect the outcome of the game, but lets ignore these for now.

in Sword/Shield, Dynamax adds in an extra layer:

1. You click a move
2. You Dynamax and click a move
3. You switch

When considering your opponent, you now have nine general outcomes, of course each has their own probabilities and outcomes. Naturally this sort of difference in the amount of options at your disposal is going to take time to adjust to.


-------------------------------------------

I have one more thing to mention, which is about the usage of defensive dynamax. I wonder if it is as powerful as people claim it is. I can't say I have played any master ball level games personally, I don't own a switch, but I've been watching considerable amounts as well as playing both OU and BSS on showdown and have seen a differing perspective. There is no doubt that Dynamaxing your Ferrothorn or Corviknight on the same turn as your opponent dynamaxes their Mimikyu and spamming max steelspike will probably lead to you winning that particular exchange.

There's a concept in chess called Zugzwang which essentially occurs when you are forced to make a move that will undoubtedly put you in a worse position. This is because there are multiple different losing lines that your opponent has to watch for, backing them into a corner. Whilst not completely analogous, it reminded me a bit of what I suspect quite a bit of defensive dynamaxing might eventually turn into and why in general defensive dynamaxing is weaker than offensive dynamaxing (other than that momentum is hugely important in 3v3).

Lets take that same situation of Ferrothorn or Corviknight vs. LO Mimikyu.

In isolation, we all know how this goes. Mimikyu clicks Swords Dance as the defenders go into the check. Mimikyu clicks LO shadow claw which does about 45-50% as the defender breaks disguise.

As the Ferrothorn/Corviknight, you should win from this situation because you always live two hits unless Mimikyu Dynamaxes and you can always dynamax yourself. I think looking at it this way is very simplistic and I don't think will occur often between well constructed cores in BSS as we go further into the meta. Right now, I don't think these things, pressuring through multi-pronged offensive dynamax threats are considered much in teambuilding. So instead, lets add a Rotom-H onto the Mimikyus side and give two basic scenarios where the attacker wins the game.

Scenario 1: Attacker dynamaxes with Mimikyu and you do not Dynamax with Ferro/Corviknight = Attacker wins because of Mimikyu Dynamax
Scenario 2: Attacker doesn't dynamax with Mimikyu and you Dynamax with Ferro/Corviknight = Attacker wins because of Rotom-H Dynamax

I do wonder what you do in such situations where you are forced into 50/50s where the attacker holds all the cards.
 
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What Ika said above is precisely how I feel in many of the matches. Actually it is not at all uncommon for Ika's scenarios to happen during a a game, and it seems like a complete tossup at times because it's rather a 50/50 winning chance depends on play style rather than actually outplaying. I remember that last generation one of the primary reason that Aegislash was banned in the OU metagame was that the opponents have no idea whether King's Shield is coming or not, and it is a complete 50/50s for a lot of attackers to go against Aegislash, and therefore considered as uncompetitive. Completely different situations and formats, but still the core idea is similar: sometimes the outcome does not directly relate to how well you play and too many guess games are probably undesired.

It's still too early to conclude anything, but Dynamax now looks like Z-Moves that could be used 3 turns in a roll while keeping damage/defensive items, doubling HP, setting up beneficial weather & terrain (even when the defender uses protect), unlock choice users, and could be used by anyone at any point. I mean yes the opponent probably is less likely to dynamax the weaker members in the team, but at least for Z-Moves you would know for sure supporters like Ferrothorn would never throw a Z-Move at you, and now whether he is going to dynamax in this current metagame is just unpredictable. Not to mention guys like Moxie Gyarados and Togekiss are spamming Max Airstream to gain unbelievable boosts in speed which made them almost impossible to be revenge killed by scarf sets once setting up. The pool for priority attacks users is also very small due to dex cut and with a BP of 40 for most priority attacks, that probably isn't gonna do much against the doubled-HP pokemons.
 
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cant say

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Running one particular item (wacan berry you mentioned) against an opponent just because of its relatively rare scarf potential is just that absurd to me
People don't run Wacan Berry Gyarados for Scarf Thunderbolt Dragapult. Gyarados is 4x weak to Electric. Electric is a popular offensive typing. It's actually moreso for (Scarf) Rotom formes. But nice strawman attempt.

252 SpA Dragapult Max Lightning (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Gyarados: 124-148 (72.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Dragapult Max Lightning vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Dynamax Gyarados: 124-148 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I know it's very easy to flowchart plays after the fact, but I think if I were facing a scarf Dragapult locked into Fire Blast you'd have to at least CONSIDER the fact that they may attempt to Dynamax. That means the optimal play is to Dynamax Airstream that first turn to at least cover their potential Dynamax, or get a speed advantage on their switch. If they switch you can then Max Geyser the following turn. You then have +1 speed with rain-boosted Geysers to spam, essentially the same as a DD boost. If the Dragapult stays in to Dynamax their best move is Draco Wyrmwind which is a 3HKO. Yeah the attack drop sucks but Gyara can pull out the 1v1 by Max Guarding until their Dynamax ends and are locked into Fire Blast again, and then you can DD.

Just because you blindly DDed and they surprised you with a good tech doesn't make the mechanic broken. Yes, this format is going to challenge our conventional thinking of short term decision making. It SHOULD. Would you rather play gen 7 for 3 more years? If so I invite you to keep the Battle Spot Singles forum alive.

You guys are acting like adding layers of decision making is a bad thing and the game should just be a 50/50 of "should I switch or attack" which to me sounds boring. The whole point of a turn based game like Pokemon is being able to assess what your opponent's best option is that turn and make an educated guess on whether they'll go for that play. If anything, I've found it EASIER to deal with Dynamax so far than Z moves or megas. You KNOW that Mimikyu has access to both Max Starfall and Max Phantasm, you no longer have to guess which one it's carrying, and if it's in trouble it is going to use them if it doesn't have a teammate in the back that can better deal with the situation.
 
People don't run Wacan Berry Gyarados for Scarf Thunderbolt Dragapult. Gyarados is 4x weak to Electric. Electric is a popular offensive typing. It's actually moreso for (Scarf) Rotom formes. But nice strawman attempt.

252 SpA Dragapult Max Lightning (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Gyarados: 124-148 (72.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Dragapult Max Lightning vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Dynamax Gyarados: 124-148 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I know it's very easy to flowchart plays after the fact, but I think if I were facing a scarf Dragapult locked into Fire Blast you'd have to at least CONSIDER the fact that they may attempt to Dynamax. That means the optimal play is to Dynamax Airstream that first turn to at least cover their potential Dynamax, or get a speed advantage on their switch. If they switch you can then Max Geyser the following turn. You then have +1 speed with rain-boosted Geysers to spam, essentially the same as a DD boost. If the Dragapult stays in to Dynamax their best move is Draco Wyrmwind which is a 3HKO. Yeah the attack drop sucks but Gyara can pull out the 1v1 by Max Guarding until their Dynamax ends and are locked into Fire Blast again, and then you can DD.

Just because you blindly DDed and they surprised you with a good tech doesn't make the mechanic broken. Yes, this format is going to challenge our conventional thinking of short term decision making. It SHOULD. Would you rather play gen 7 for 3 more years? If so I invite you to keep the Battle Spot Singles forum alive.

You guys are acting like adding layers of decision making is a bad thing and the game should just be a 50/50 of "should I switch or attack" which to me sounds boring. The whole point of a turn based game like Pokemon is being able to assess what your opponent's best option is that turn and make an educated guess on whether they'll go for that play. If anything, I've found it EASIER to deal with Dynamax so far than Z moves or megas. You KNOW that Mimikyu has access to both Max Starfall and Max Phantasm, you no longer have to guess which one it's carrying, and if it's in trouble it is going to use them if it doesn't have a teammate in the back that can better deal with the situation.
I do agree that changes in conventional thinking is probably a healthy movement for the game as a whole. But there NEEDS to be some sort of balancing before adding the mechanic to the system. Just because the game is playable or there is a way out of a specific dilemma doesn't automatically make this a competitive mechanic. Again, I don't know why you assumed that I am against changes, but I can certainly tell you I'm not. And by the way, that specific situation of Gyarados vs. Dragapult is just one game I spectated, not the one I played. I brought it up to discuss choice lock issues, which you can essentially replace by any pokemon matchups, and so my purpose is not to complain how unbeatable Dragapult is.

I honestly am perplexed why you're saying dynamaxing is easier to deal with than Mega and Z-Moves. Megas are way more predictable and checks for them could be found everywhere. Z-Moves, although not as predictable as mega, could be predicted to some extent and more importantly there's only one opportunity for you to succeed, at the cost of an item slot. Dynamax, on the other hand, is capable of dealing Z-Moves level damage for three turns while boosting abilities and setting up terrains/weather, and compared to Z-Moves it's way more spammable and less risky.
By no way do I suggest Dynamax is brainless, but with some quick plays and luck the games could snowball out of players' control so much quicker than any of the meta we had before. At least to me this doesn't sound good at all. It's not a mechanic where a simple "just get good and adapt to it" could explain everything happening here.

Anyways, it seems like we are not going to reach a similar conclusion by any chance, but I do respect your points.
 
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JabbaTheGriffin

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I mostly agree with cant say on this one. I think dynamax is definitely busted, but I think it’s busted in a skill testing way (at least in 3v3). Above all, I think it rewards/punishes your 3 mon selection. If you brought the right mons to push the matchup in your favor, dynamax is likely going to emphasize that advantage. If not, then the matchup issues will be exacerbated. It also adds an additional layer of decision making that I find to be interesting. Also nothing is funnier than your opp dynamaxing into getting instant ohko’ed and rage quitting. So there’s that.

I do think the mechanic overall would be helped by a couple balance tweaks (lower hp, keep choice locking), but overall so far I think that dynamax is a mechanic that pushes the better player to win more often compared to the last two gamefreak gimmicks which instead closed the gap a bit for the worse player.
 
If anyone is interested, did a video on some of the most influential and most seen pokemon in the early Sword/Shield Battle Stadium Singles meta, why they are good/what they do as well as pointing out some common sets/spreads. Be warned the video is about 45 minutes, unfortunately everything I do is slow and long winded, so if you haven't got time no worries:

 

marilli

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I don't really want this to devolve into some hypothetical theoretics about BSS and OU, so Long story short I think while Dynamaxing itself is a more impactful resource, it is healthier in BSS. Your own Dynamax is a far more effective factor in being able to counteract theirs in 3s. It really comes down to any potential Dynamax Pokemon having 5 supports (including sacks) as vs. 2.
 
Anyone experimented with webs yet? I played it in OU almost exclusively and did really well but tanked my PS elo trying to make it work in BSS. I think one of the big issues rn is flying types and clear body dragapult, so I wanted a dedicated slot for it that. Mimi or a mid speed scarfer is what I was thinking, currently using Adamant Scarf Darm.

Heres my team outline:
Sash Galvantula: electroweb/webs/volt switch/bug buzz
Darm: 4 attacks adamant scarf
Dracovish: Choice Band 4attacks
Togekiss: Semi Bulky Nasty Plot

Last couple of slots Im unsure about for my team in particular. if anyone wants to help me with those slots or just theorycraft ideas for webs as an archetype in general definitely respond here!
 

cant say

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Anyone experimented with webs yet? I played it in OU almost exclusively and did really well but tanked my PS elo trying to make it work in BSS. I think one of the big issues rn is flying types and clear body dragapult, so I wanted a dedicated slot for it that. Mimi or a mid speed scarfer is what I was thinking, currently using Adamant Scarf Darm.

Heres my team outline:
Sash Galvantula: electroweb/webs/volt switch/bug buzz
Darm: 4 attacks adamant scarf
Dracovish: Choice Band 4attacks
Togekiss: Semi Bulky Nasty Plot

Last couple of slots Im unsure about for my team in particular. if anyone wants to help me with those slots or just theorycraft ideas for webs as an archetype in general definitely respond here!
chemcoop and I used webs in our first team when trying out the format, chem got to 1400 pretty easily, but I got stuck in the 1300s lol. We had Haxorus over Dracovish, and the last two slots were HD Twave + Bulk Up Grimmsnarl for Dragapult, and HB rocks Ferro for Mimikyu + Gyara.

It was pretty fun, but Galvantula was often too passive and just got set up on a lot of the time, which is too hard to come back from in 3v3 this gen.
 
chemcoop and I used webs in our first team when trying out the format, chem got to 1400 pretty easily, but I got stuck in the 1300s lol. We had Haxorus over Dracovish, and the last two slots were HD Twave + Bulk Up Grimmsnarl for Dragapult, and HB rocks Ferro for Mimikyu + Gyara.

It was pretty fun, but Galvantula was often too passive and just got set up on a lot of the time, which is too hard to come back from in 3v3 this gen.
Did you use electrowebs galv? Sucks against excadrill still but not much else can set up on it. And vs fast mons not named dragapult, you can electrowebs into sticky webs, seemed quite solid for me. Its definitely a better setter than araquanid at least, probably vikavolt as well.
 

cant say

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Did you use electrowebs galv? Sucks against excadrill still but not much else can set up on it. And vs fast mons not named dragapult, you can electrowebs into sticky webs, seemed quite solid for me. Its definitely a better setter than araquanid at least, probably vikavolt as well.
We used Thunder Wave for Clear Body Dragapult leads.

The problem wasn’t so much Galv being useless like I said, but it felt more like a 2v3 situation, and being able to check 3 mons + dynamax potential with only 2 pokémon was really hard.

Even with webs up, not much actually goes on a sweep, so you need to bring the correct 2 in the back each game, and one of those things needs to be good vs a Clear Body Dragapult in the back (otherwise it just outspeeds and revenge KOes), and Mimikyu. This is why I really liked DD Dual Chop Iron Tail Haxorus, but webs wasn’t helping that guy at all so we ditched webs altogether and just went with a balance build that enabled more chances to DD.

But between Clear Body, Flying-type being amazing (and Mirror Armor Corv), Levitators everywhere, defensive Dynamaxing getting more popular as an answer to sweeps, as well as Ditto, Webs felt super bad.
 
I've bred pokémon in-game with my knowledge of things like OU and been sweeped a lot in Battle Stadium, obviously. Trying to figure out what can I do to get better at 3v3 and I can breed to counter mons like Mimikyu and Dragapult. Any suggestions? I was thinking about OHKOing Mimikyus with an Iron Head from a Mold Breaker Excadrill, because I already have one.

Other frustrating threat I faced was a freaking Butterfree. It was running Sleep Powder, Substitute, Quiver Dance and Hurricane. It put all my 3 pokémon to sleep and just wrecked everything after a bunch of Quiver Dances. It was annoying and I think I definitely need Infiltrator and/or something to avoid sleep (or maybe Sleep Talk?) if I face more of those.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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We used Thunder Wave for Clear Body Dragapult leads.

The problem wasn’t so much Galv being useless like I said, but it felt more like a 2v3 situation, and being able to check 3 mons + dynamax potential with only 2 pokémon was really hard.

Even with webs up, not much actually goes on a sweep, so you need to bring the correct 2 in the back each game, and one of those things needs to be good vs a Clear Body Dragapult in the back (otherwise it just outspeeds and revenge KOes), and Mimikyu. This is why I really liked DD Dual Chop Iron Tail Haxorus, but webs wasn’t helping that guy at all so we ditched webs altogether and just went with a balance build that enabled more chances to DD.

But between Clear Body, Flying-type being amazing (and Mirror Armor Corv), Levitators everywhere, defensive Dynamaxing getting more popular as an answer to sweeps, as well as Ditto, Webs felt super bad.
I’ve been feeling similarly towards Grimmsnarl lately. Sure, having screens for your sweeper can come in handy, but the mon you set screens for needs to get at least two mons (or more, if you gmax it) of value before you even break even. I’ve been trying the same sweepers without the support and have been more successful just having a third mon in the back. Webs are a bit different, obviously, because they fully enable strategies that just aren’t viable without them (like band Fishious), but you still need to hit that value point with the mon they enable or else you just willingly put yourself into a situation where you’re playing from behind all game.
 

Theorymon

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So I got in the top 500! Took a while, the ladder gets pretty damn tough at this point, and my team has some major stuff I need to work out.



Not sure everyone is gonna find this surprising, but I'm seeing a lot less hyper offensive teams after I got in the top 1k, and more teams with fairly bulky cores. Corviknight is god damn everywhere among high rated teams. Specfically, Iron Defense + Body Press ones. I know Defense boosts aren't a huge thing normally, but it allows Corviknight to blast a lot of offensive threats (Excadrill and Mimikyu in particular struggle against Iron Defense) I'm seeing it paired with stuff like Umbreon, Sylveon, Galarian Corsola, etc. I've also started to see this core of Corviknight + Dracozolt in several teams (specfically with Volt Absorb). This is also when I FINALLY started seeing several Hippowdon, who I basically didn't see in early master ball tier.

As some of you know, I've been using a Sandaconda based sand team to ladder on cart (very similar to Charlotte 's team on the bazzar actually, except I use Rotom-H and Dragapult over Rillaboom and Duraludon). While it's still working well, its clear I gotta make some changes to deal with these bulkier teams on the ladder, its clear people are already moving past the usual early game "use 6 offensive mons" stuff!

Some other more unusual stuff I've seen on high rated teams (usually top 200-500):

-I lost to a Bright Powder Double Team Ninjask, man I was feeling a bit sour after it BPed to Dubwool then Moody Octillery rofl

-Speaking of Dubwool, I've seen some more indenpent uses of it as well in master ball tier. The set seems to be Cotton Guard / Body Press / Payback / Baton Pass. Not sure about it yet, but I do want to give it a try after seeing it a few times!

-Strangely I've seen a couple of Glaceon, they always Dynamax and use Snow Cloak (except for my most recent battle which I haxed to win lol). I don't quite get it, but I guess the idea is that its just a bulky Dynamaxer with strong Ice moves? I guess it also helps that Glaceon gets Freeze Dry now for Gyarados and Dracovish. Still don't entirely get it though.

-I've seen a couple of Seismetoad, I assume they have Water Absorb. It sounds like a decent Stealth Rock setter, not only does it own Dracovish, it also ruins Rotom-W and Rotom-H, which is really cool for an SR setter! I've also seen quite a few Gastrodon, that give up SR in change of Recover. I even saw a Water Absorb Quagisire... I think people are starting to get a bit more paranoid about Dracovish lol.

-I saw someone actually use Shed Skin Sandaconda! It was... literally the same set as mine, with max speed and all. My guess is the dude used it because it was a team that didnt want sand, but wanted Glare and Stealth Rock for Dynamax Gyarados / Togekiss set ups.
 
-Strangely I've seen a couple of Glaceon, they always Dynamax and use Snow Cloak (except for my most recent battle which I haxed to win lol). I don't quite get it, but I guess the idea is that its just a bulky Dynamaxer with strong Ice moves? I guess it also helps that Glaceon gets Freeze Dry now for Gyarados and Dracovish. Still don't entirely get it though.
Oddly this crossed my mind (Glaceon I mean, as a theorymon, even though I haven't played ranked enough to see glaceon yet). Its STAB gives it evasion, which sets it apart from every sand veil user (since none of them have STAB on max rockfall). As for what sets it apart from other bulky snow cloak users, I think it comes down to Dragapult, specifically Hex Dragapult. Hex Dragapult can just Will-o-Wisp to utterly impair Mamoswine (the other strong candidate IMO) and Bearctic, and he is super effective on Froslass while also outspeeding. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just run Lum on Mamo in that case, but it might just be to free up the slot for Bright Powder on Glaceon for added evasion, or to free up Assault Vest for extra bulk (Mamo can't run AV and Lum at the same time), or even Weakness Policy for more offense.
Glaceon also has some really interesting options. Wish can combo with itself in the form of max guard to give health upon dynamax. Yawn is always a great move. Stored power can reach 100 BP with weakness policy, and also turns into a 130 power max mindstorm. Mirror Coat can also turn into mindstorm, but the mindstorm from coat is much weaker at 100 BP. Hilariously, mud slap turns into a 90 Base power Max Quake that raises your special defense, which might result in some spicy memes considering that mud slap goes pretty well with cloak if dynamax wears off, and also comboes well with Assault Vest. I'll be honest though, I don't 100% understand the Glaceon usage either.
 
Oh noes, so Stealth Rocks are present in 3v3 after all? I just got to Great Ball Tier yesterday after changing my team of 6 offensive mons to add a more defensive core with Pex, Hippowdon and Rotom-H. I'm still not fully happy with my team, but I think I can climb a bit more with it.
 
Hi,

which Corviknight set you condsider to be the most useful in 3v3?

The sub bulk-up as in OU, probably changing the ability for mirror armor :

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 136 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Roost


Or a set based on iron defense body press?
For the iron defense set which spread/moves are you using?

Thanks!
 
Hi,

which Corviknight set you consider to be the most useful in 3v3?

The sub bulk-up as in OU, probably changing the ability for mirror armor.
Or a set based on iron defense body press?
For the iron defense set which spread/moves are you using?

Thanks!
Iron Defense for sure, in my opinion. Iron Defense allows you to outscale the boosting sweepers Corvi is supposed to check, including Gyarados and Mimikyu. Mirror Armor as the ability, Sitrus Berry for the item to allow you to set up Iron Defense and tank more physical attacks. Max Defense, Some HP, Some Speed (although I'd like someone's input for an optimized spread). As for the moves, I'd like someone's input for that as well, but Iron Defense, Roost, and Body Press are obvious.
 
I thought I would note something of interest that I'm not sure everyone has picked up on in this generation so far and that is about the speed tiers and how they are different to USUM. I've posted a list in another thread on this forum of the speed tiers so if you are interested look there. I'm going to be updating that with a few more pokemon since the meta has shaped up a bit but the gist of what I'm about to say is the same.

These are the following pokemon and their speed tiers between Mimikyu at base 96 speed and Dragapult at base 142 speed. I've bolded everything in the top 30 in usage and underlined everything between 30th and 60th in usage based on showdown usage stats (Here)


142 Dragapult
136 Barraskewda
135 Darmanitan-Galar Zen Mode
130 Jolteon Eisue-No Ice
125 Weavile
124 Ribombee
123 Noivern
121 Boltund
120 Dugtrio Inteleon
119 Cinderace
118 Hawlucha
117 Salazzle
116 Whimsicott
115 Cinccino Persian
114 Swoobat
110 Espeon Froslass Gengar Raichu-Alola Dugtrio-Alola
109 Heliolisk Ninetales-Alola
108 Galvantula
105 Manectric Rapidash-Galar
104 Meowstic
100 Charizard Flygon Linoone Ninetales Mr.Mime-Galar
99 Gourgeist-Small
98 Hydreigon Basculin
97 Haxorus Morpeko
96 Mimikyu

Removing everything below 60th in usage and you get something like this:

142 Dragapult
136 Barraskewda
120 Inteleon
119 Cinderace
118 Hawlucha
116 Whimsicott
110 Gengar
100 Charizard
98 Hydreigon
97 Haxorus
96 Mimikyu

I've kept the top 30 pokemon in usage bolded here so you can immediately see the gap between base 100 speed or so and base 142 speed. What does this mean?

Essentially between 167 speed and 213 speed, there is a big gap where there are not too many significant speed tiers to hit. EVing to be faster than Inteleon for example, at least in this current metagame is not too important. That is in contrast to USUM where being faster than something like Greninja, Mega Metagross, Mega Gengar, Tapu Koko or Mega Salamence which occupied these tiers was extremely important.

Lets now focus on Inteleon, Cinderace and Hawlucha. I'm not talking about Gengar because it is slightly too slow and Whimsicott and Barraskewda have abilities in Prankster/Swift Swim that make speed tiers less relevant (though barraskewda should also run adamant).

Modest Inteleon hits 172 speed.
Adamant Cinderace hits 171 speed.
Adamant Hawlucha hits 170 speed.

All of these are still fasted than Timid Charizard at 167 speed. I see a lot of people still running positive natures on these pokemon and whilst I am not saying that is unviable, this should be a consideration since you get the extra power with little downside.

That's all well and good but that is just three pokemon and three less used pokemon in the metagame currently. How does knowledge of SWSD speed tiers help those teambuilding goodstuffs?

Lets take three of the four biggest speed boosting sweepers in the tier: Tyranitar, Corviknight and Togekiss. I'm going to ignore Gyarados since you almost always want to outspeed Dragapult. I'd say for these three pokemon, at least Tyranitar and Togekiss fare relatively well vs. Dragapult, similarly Corviknight when Dynamaxed can take fire moves even from specs dragapult.

(All the figures below assume max speed jolly nature)

Corviknight at +0: 130
Corviknight at +1: 195
Tyranitar at +0: 124
Tyranitar at +1: 186
Togekiss at +0: 145
Togekiss at +1: 217

Of the three, only Togekiss is going to outspeed Dragapult at +1.

To outspeed the rest of the relevant meta though, you only need to have 101 speed. This will allow you to outspeed Charizard at +1 and therefore +1 Charizard (and therefore scarf rotom, scarf hydreigon, scarf darmanitan and dragapult) at +2. For most of these pokemon, except Togekiss, though I've mentioned it due to its Weakness Policy set benefitting off bulk, they cannot outspeed Dragapult at +1 anyways so why are you putting that extra investment in and going jolly max? I see this in a lot of peoples teams that are trying to pull off some Bulk up Corviknight sweeper or Dragon Dance Weakness Policy Tyranitar.

Now I wouldn't suggest that EV spread, it may well be useful to outspeed 4 speed Rotom-W/H at 108 speed but it is something for builders of these sweepers as well as using some of the more niche faster speed mons to keep in mind.
 

cant say

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I thought I would note something of interest that I'm not sure everyone has picked up on in this generation so far and that is about the speed tiers and how they are different to USUM. I've posted a list in another thread on this forum of the speed tiers so if you are interested look there. I'm going to be updating that with a few more pokemon since the meta has shaped up a bit but the gist of what I'm about to say is the same.

These are the following pokemon and their speed tiers between Mimikyu at base 96 speed and Dragapult at base 142 speed. I've bolded everything in the top 30 in usage and underlined everything between 30th and 60th in usage based on showdown usage stats (Here)


142 Dragapult
136 Barraskewda
135 Darmanitan-Galar Zen Mode
130 Jolteon Eisue-No Ice
125 Weavile
124 Ribombee
123 Noivern
121 Boltund
120 Dugtrio Inteleon
119 Cinderace
118 Hawlucha
117 Salazzle
116 Whimsicott
115 Cinccino Persian
114 Swoobat
110 Espeon Froslass Gengar Raichu-Alola Dugtrio-Alola
109 Heliolisk Ninetales-Alola
108 Galvantula
105 Manectric Rapidash-Galar
104 Meowstic
100 Charizard Flygon Linoone Ninetales Mr.Mime-Galar
99 Gourgeist-Small
98 Hydreigon Basculin
97 Haxorus Morpeko
96 Mimikyu

Removing everything below 60th in usage and you get something like this:

142 Dragapult
136 Barraskewda
120 Inteleon
119 Cinderace
118 Hawlucha
116 Whimsicott
110 Gengar
100 Charizard
98 Hydreigon
97 Haxorus
96 Mimikyu

I've kept the top 30 pokemon in usage bolded here so you can immediately see the gap between base 100 speed or so and base 142 speed. What does this mean?

Essentially between 167 speed and 213 speed, there is a big gap where there are not too many significant speed tiers to hit. EVing to be faster than Inteleon for example, at least in this current metagame is not too important. That is in contrast to USUM where being faster than something like Greninja, Mega Metagross, Mega Gengar, Tapu Koko or Mega Salamence which occupied these tiers was extremely important.

Lets now focus on Inteleon, Cinderace and Hawlucha. I'm not talking about Gengar because it is slightly too slow and Whimsicott and Barraskewda have abilities in Prankster/Swift Swim that make speed tiers less relevant (though barraskewda should also run adamant).

Modest Inteleon hits 172 speed.
Adamant Cinderace hits 171 speed.
Adamant Hawlucha hits 170 speed.

All of these are still fasted than Timid Charizard at 167 speed. I see a lot of people still running positive natures on these pokemon and whilst I am not saying that is unviable, this should be a consideration since you get the extra power with little downside.

That's all well and good but that is just three pokemon and three less used pokemon in the metagame currently. How does knowledge of SWSD speed tiers help those teambuilding goodstuffs?

Lets take three of the four biggest speed boosting sweepers in the tier: Tyranitar, Corviknight and Togekiss. I'm going to ignore Gyarados since you almost always want to outspeed Dragapult. I'd say for these three pokemon, at least Tyranitar and Togekiss fare relatively well vs. Dragapult, similarly Corviknight when Dynamaxed can take fire moves even from specs dragapult.

(All the figures below assume max speed jolly nature)

Corviknight at +0: 130
Corviknight at +1: 195
Tyranitar at +0: 124
Tyranitar at +1: 186
Togekiss at +0: 145
Togekiss at +1: 217

Of the three, only Togekiss is going to outspeed Dragapult at +1.

To outspeed the rest of the relevant meta though, you only need to have 101 speed. This will allow you to outspeed Charizard at +1 and therefore +1 Charizard (and therefore scarf rotom, scarf hydreigon, scarf darmanitan and dragapult) at +2. For most of these pokemon, except Togekiss, though I've mentioned it due to its Weakness Policy set benefitting off bulk, they cannot outspeed Dragapult at +1 anyways so why are you putting that extra investment in and going jolly max? I see this in a lot of peoples teams that are trying to pull off some Bulk up Corviknight sweeper or Dragon Dance Weakness Policy Tyranitar.

Now I wouldn't suggest that EV spread, it may well be useful to outspeed 4 speed Rotom-W/H at 108 speed but it is something for builders of these sweepers as well as using some of the more niche faster speed mons to keep in mind.

well according to your speed tiers thread:

186 /
/ 61 / Positive / 252 / 31 / +1
184 /
/ 116 / Positive / 252 / 31 / 0
178 /
/ 110 / Positive / 252 / 31 / 0
177 /
/ 109 / Positive / 252 / 31 / 0
170 / :hawlucha: / 118 / Neutral / 252 / 31 / 0
169 /
/ 61 / Neutral / 252 / 31 / +1


I was actually running SERIOUS mixed DD Ttar, but Moonblast Whimsi is pretty common atm (prankster SubLeech is a good way to check dynamax), I also got revenge killed max knuckle Gengar a couple times...
 
i notice how in this meta the strongest defensive pokemon (corsola-g, ferrorthorn, toxapex, corvknight) tend to run all a physical def set, cause what they need to wall is mostly atk based threat (mimikyu, excadrill, gyarados, darmiatan-g, aegislash, barraskewda).
That's leave them vulnerable to the SpA, expecially dragapult who basically 2HKO all of them being able to hit all of them for supereffective damage, but also mons like togekiss, hydreigon, rotom-w/h and hatterene(?) can pack quite a punch with proper set up.

ok, here we get to the point: how about an assault vest ttar set?
(I want to premise that it's just theorycraft)

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower?

With a no sense 207 HP 376 Sdef under sand, this set can tank basically every SpA mons in the tier.
Here some maths:

.VS Dragapult
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 45-54 (21.7 - 26%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 146-174 (89.5 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Togekiss
+2 252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 84-102 (40.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 152-182 (94.4 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

.VS Rotom-w
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 86-104 (41.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash: 69-82 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Hydreigon
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 90-107 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 79-94 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Hatterene
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 65-81 (31.4 - 39.1%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hatterene: 76-90 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

He can basically takes 3 hits vs all the best boosted supereffective SpA mons in the tier, and 2HKO them in return.
but most of all, this set totally wall Choice Spec dragapult, taking basically 10% dmg from anything is not a draco meteor and 0HKO in return with a bit of luck.

What do you guys think about it?
 

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