Singles 3v3 Singles (BSS) Discussion

cant say

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Battle Stadium Head
i notice how in this meta the strongest defensive pokemon (corsola-g, ferrorthorn, toxapex, corvknight) tend to run all a physical def set, cause what they need to wall is mostly atk based threat (mimikyu, excadrill, gyarados, darmiatan-g, aegislash, barraskewda).
That's leave them vulnerable to the SpA, expecially dragapult who basically 2HKO all of them being able to hit all of them for supereffective damage, but also mons like togekiss, hydreigon, rotom-w/h and hatterene(?) can pack quite a punch with proper set up.

ok, here we get to the point: how about an assault vest ttar set?
(I want to premise that it's just theorycraft)

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower?

With a no sense 207 HP 376 Sdef under sand, this set can tank basically every SpA mons in the tier.
Here some maths:

.VS Dragapult
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 45-54 (21.7 - 26%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 146-174 (89.5 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Togekiss
+2 252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 84-102 (40.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 152-182 (94.4 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

.VS Rotom-w
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 86-104 (41.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash: 69-82 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Hydreigon
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 90-107 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 79-94 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

.VS Hatterene
252+ SpA Life Orb Hatterene Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 65-81 (31.4 - 39.1%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hatterene: 76-90 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

He can basically takes 3 hits vs all the best boosted supereffective SpA mons in the tier, and 2HKO them in return.
but most of all, this set totally wall Choice Spec dragapult, taking basically 10% dmg from anything is not a draco meteor and 0HKO in return with a bit of luck.

What do you guys think about it?
Ttar is so ridiculously bulky that it doesn't even need an Assault Vest. The best set for it at the moment (Weakness Policy) still checks all those special attackers while also becoming an insane threat on its own.

If you have the WP on another Pokemon on the team already then I'd probably go Lum berry so things like Will-o-Wisp Rotoms / Dragapult don't cripple Ttar, or maybe even Expert Belt.
 
1_TrickPhony and I sat down for what ended up being about 2 hours, discussing Sword/Shield BSS and making a preliminary Tier List for the meta at least as it is currently based off our ladder experiences as well as what we had been seeing from others/in Japan as well as theorycrafting. Here's the tier list itself:

download.png

If you are interested in making your own, there's a resource (tho a bit buggy and repeated pokemon) to do it here:

https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-8-battle-stadium-220589

Huge shoutouts to 1TP for this.

Our Discussion was held live on Twitch here:


Keep in mind this is about 2 hours, wouldn't expect anyone to watch through it, but it's more to chronicle that a discussion happened. Many thanks to Marilli and Dragonwhale and a few others I think for popping in and giving their thoughts.
 
Has anyone tried Silvally in this format? I havn't seen any discussion on the fact that multi-attack is now 120 bp. Unfortunately, it is physical while most of Silvally's movepool is special. However when dynamaxed, max strike becomes the max move of whatever type Silvally is.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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Battle Stadium Head
marilli shared this on discord and I thought it should go here:

https://pokesol.com/data/stats1-swsh



What do you guys think about these usage stats? It’s pretty bang on to what I’ve been running into, except I think I’ve seen more Arcanine and Quagsire while seeing less Sylveon. So you guys expect things to move around quite a bit? I feel like it will sit mostly unchanged for a while at least. I think Snorlax will rise over time just like it did last gen, it can beat pretty much everything on this list apart from Corsola (wouldn’t be surprised to see some random Fissure sets). But apart from that I can’t predict anymore trends at the moment...


Has anyone tried Silvally in this format? I havn't seen any discussion on the fact that multi-attack is now 120 bp. Unfortunately, it is physical while most of Silvally's movepool is special. However when dynamaxed, max strike becomes the max move of whatever type Silvally is.
Silvally just doesn’t have a niche over anything else. You want a fairy type? Use Mimikyu. Dragon type; Dragapult, Steel type; Corvinight / Excadrill / Ferrothorn, Normal type; Snorlax. Hell even Obstagoon and Dubwool or better. It doesn’t even get Tailwind anymore so it can’t even do the Ika Ika Musume TW+Explosion gimmick.
 
Ive been finding mold breaker Hawlucha really good check against excadrill and mimikyu which are both top of usage. I've started seeing more online as well.
 
hi, i was theorycrafting a bit and this duo pop out :

Pelipper @ Focus Sash
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Scald

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch

the idea is simple: pelipper set up tailwind + rain, then use knock off most of the time, then dracovish come in and for the next 3 turn he is a beast, here some math :

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 158-188 (76.3 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery (100.00% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 126-148 (69.6 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (0.00% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 113-133 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (0.00% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar in Rain: 204-240 (122.1 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (0.00% after accuracy)

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (Doubled) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 294-346 (143.4 - 168.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (0.00% after accuracy)

basically the only things that can wall this mon is a dmax ferrorthorn or water absorb.
what do you guys think about it?
 
This might be a stupid question... do you even need walls in 3v3 teams? I see people packing G-Corsola, Toxapex and Ferrothorn, when it just seems like overkill. Why pack defensive threats when you just pack offense to take them down?
 

PPB

Banned deucer.
This might be a stupid question... do you even need walls in 3v3 teams? I see people packing G-Corsola, Toxapex and Ferrothorn, when it just seems like overkill. Why pack defensive threats when you just pack offense to take them down?
Walls are very good. You don't need walls on certain teams (hyper offense), but they are good on other teams, especially balance.

A similar way to frame this is: Why pack offensive threats when you can just pick walls to wear them down? Both offense and defense work, it's just personal preference. Although I will say that wallbreakers have gotten a little ridiculous this gen.

880.png

^Yes. I'm looking at you. >:(
 
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How do you guys counter durant besides outspeeding it after it kills something lol?
Better hope you sent out something 1st that can deal with that or youre gonna lose half your team, i saw one with traunt entrainment yesterday that was very weird to deal with.

I just tried getting into 3v3 and its a crazy metagame for me. So many surprises can come up its almost impossible to be prepared for any and everything. Usually if your first match up is bad youll probably lose, if you dont happen to choose the right 3 pokes youre pretty screwed.

What are thoughts on this set up? Ive had decent success if things go right but some things will shut this down hard.

Gourgeist-Super @ Focus Sash
Ability: Frisk
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 160
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Explosion
- Trick Room
- Power Whip

Just like using this thing it looks great shiny, obvious set up is trick room and blow up and on to the snorlax set up if things go right. Can also hit things hard with pwhip and surprise stuff with wwisp.

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 244 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Curse
- Baton Pass
- Recover

Kind of a plan b if things dont go right with gourgeist, i can curse up, stall stuff with toxic recover and hopefully pass to lax.

Snorlax @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Level: 50
EVs: 218 HP / 248 Atk / 32 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Brick Break
- Darkest Lariat
- Body Slam

If i get max turns with trick room this thing is pretty unstoppable, just belly drum and win. Darkest lariat is great to hit double teamers and other stat boosters hard, brick break breaks screens and turns to max knuckle to boost attack if other plans dont work out.

I know its not perfect i have others on the team to try to combat some of these 3's weaknesses (taunt mostly) but its fun to use and its poked i like. Think any other trick roomers could provide a better set up?
 
Hello guys
One question: do you know a viable set for Corviknight for this meta?
I‘ve seen some Iron Defense sets, but I’m not sure about its EV spreads and nature.
 
Hello guys
One question: do you know a viable set for Corviknight for this meta?
I‘ve seen some Iron Defense sets, but I’m not sure about its EV spreads and nature.
My go to set is impish Max hp max defense with roost iron head body press iron defense. Holding either sitrus or figy berry
 
Also, Ttar is currently played with weakness policy, adamant, max hp and max atk, isn‘t it?
Or does it have some SpDef and Speed EV‘s?
 

PPB

Banned deucer.
Yeah with defensive Corviknight always go Impish. If you run Taunt, you can invest in some speed to outspeed and Taunt other Corviknights. Otherwise just 252 HP 252 Def 4 Spe is fine. Sitrus is probably my item favorite on him since it allows you to shrug off a lot of physical damage before getting off your first ID.

You can either go:
Body Press
Iron Defense
Roost
Iron Head/ Drill Peck / Brave Bird

or

Brave Bird / Drill Peck
Roost
Iron Defense
Taunt

Tyranitar can basically get away with running literally any spread depending on its moveset; it's incredibly versatile. I've even gotten mished by 252 HP 252 Def Relaxed Ttar with Weakness Policy on the ladder before. However despite its versatility most Ttar DO run weakness policy since it's just so good, or Smooth Rock on Sand teams.
 

Charlotte

Show me something eternal
is a Tiering Contributor
So it appears like Season two of BSS will allow some Gmax Pokemon to be used.

The list is the same as VGC's currently allowed Gmaxers, which is as follows:
Charizard (but only with Blaze), Butterfree, Meowth, Eevee, Snorlax, Corviknight, Drednaw, Sandaconda, Centiskorch
So for us, that's not a huge difference, but Gmax-Snorlax is a pretty good upgrade to regular Snorlax in most cases.

The biggest change however is the introduction of a Battle Timer of 15minutes, along side Your Time being reduced to 7 minutes.
I fear with the length of some animations, such as Dynamaxing and all the end of-turn-effects that some Sub-Protect stratergies might be able to make effective use of the low timer draw out games after an early lead. Less common but with some of the same potential, a Gothitelle trapping something like a Ferrothorn or Toxapex could just win a game on the spot, though slowly.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if the turn timer is 45 seconds or 60. With everything else looking like a slight edit on a copy-paste of VGC's setup, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they reduced it to 45.

Edit: Have tested with the on-cart rules, it is a 45second turn timer.
 
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The biggest change however is the introduction of a Battle Timer of 15minutes, along side Your Time being reduced to 7 minutes.
I fear with the length of some animations, such as Dynamaxing and all the end of-turn-effects that some Sub-Protect stratergies might be able to make effective use of the low timer draw out games after an early lead. Less common but with some of the same potential, a Gothitelle trapping something like a Ferrothorn or Toxapex could just win a game on the spot, though slowly.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if the Move Selection timer is 45 seconds or 60. With everything else looking like a slight edit on a copy-paste of VGC's setup, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they reduced it to 45.
sighhhh that is super crappy, I imagine Japanese players will be all over that. I'm sorry if that sounds like a racist generalization, but I feel like they already do their best to stall out the battles when they start losing. Maybe its just the connection I dunno...
 

cant say

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Battle Stadium Head
sighhhh that is super crappy, I imagine Japanese players will be all over that. I'm sorry if that sounds like a racist generalization, but I feel like they already do their best to stall out the battles when they start losing. Maybe its just the connection I dunno...
literally everyone tries timerstallng when it becomes their wincon. it’s just the majority of the ladder is japanese players so it feels like a japanese strategy...

It will be interesting to see if this actually makes stall more viable. From what I’ve seen this gen, stall either gets overpowered in a handful of turns, or gets itself into an endless reception loop that will win regardless of timer. It basically just comes down to your team’s stall matchup. I haven’t played many games that went for more than 15 minutes yet, I either won quickly or lost slowly. If you’re behind in a stall game after 15 minutes, you’ve probably lost at that point anyway and should just forfeit.

There are also a bunch of really good stall breakers. Pretty much every special attacker is able to break through thanks to there being no good Chansey replacement. Rotom-Mow is particularly good as it’s all Water-Grass mons + Corviknight...

I’m more scared of Gothitelle trapping and stalling the timer, or Glalie SubProtecting the timer down.... But even then both of those have pretty exploitable weaknesses that don’t require some kind of specialised tech on a team
 

Charlotte

Show me something eternal
is a Tiering Contributor
Butterfree can be hit pretty hard by this, Sleep-Sub-Quiver-Sleep-Sub... takes up a lot of turns, and the opponent can put a hard cap on the number of turns in the game by starting to play slowly which leaves Butterfree without the time to set itself up. If you use a setup-support lead you're also likely to fall behind in terms of tiebreakers (Pokemon count or HP), making it even harder to use. All of this applies to Glalie style teams too; turn-inefficient setup struggles too much with the overall game timer.
 
I think there's some real interesting changes being made with the online battles this season. It seems like the "main" mode is more like the Special Battle rules seen in Gen VI and VII. Not only that, but it seems to shift monthly instead of the bimonthly changes seen for Special Battle rules. And while Special Battle rulesets would be limited to a single format (e.g. singles vs. doubles), this new system seem to apply to both singles and doubles. I'd say it's a nice change overall, rather than there being a static, singular competitive environment for each format like in Gen VI and VII.

I imagine that the next stage of the VGC will also permit more Gigantamax species, and Series 3 would follow this expansion. (The ongoing Series 2 has a limited selection of eligible Gigantamax species, reflecting the species permitted at this stage of the VGC.)

But I digress. With Series 2 permitting some Gigantamax species, do you think this changes much? Namely, do you think any of the eligible Gigantamax species will have a presence?

And while I'm mentioning Gigantamaxing, is there a more in-depth breakdown of how the various G-Max moves work? For example, does G-Max Chi Strike have the effects of Focus Energy apply to both Machamp and its ally? What about the difference(s) between G-Max Wildfire vs. G-Max Centiferno? What's this I hear about some G-Max moves only having a chance of having their effect? Finally, when a Max Move has a buff/debuff effect, does it always apply to both allied/opposing specimens?

Oh, and one last thing. For the ability Healer, does it roll a 30% chance twice (for both the specimen with the ability and its ally)? Or was it more like Shed Skin that only works on the ally?
 
Adding onto this thread (DragonWhale ) with some of the teams I've translated:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/top-placing-singles-teams-aka-japanese-team-compendium.3658518/

Placing: 4th
Blog link: https://pokesol.com/team/party4
Pokemon: :dragapult: :cinderace: :hydreigon: :diggersby: :mimikyu: :cloyster:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/fdd3fca1101e44c2

Placing: 5th
Blog Link: http://rururyoga.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/01/04/180231
Pokemon: :hippowdon: :excadrill: :mimikyu: :hydreigon: :togekiss: :Darmanitan-galar:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/d6363c3f0b6bc24b

Placing: 8th
Blog Link: http://cresseliapoke.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/01/01/214513
Pokemon: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :Dragapult: :hydreigon: :corviknight: :rotom-wash:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/a5e37f4e2643f8ee

Placing: 10th / 19th
Blog Link: https://www.asamipoke.com/entry/2020/01/01/172111
Pokemon: :umbreon: :corviknight: :gastrodon: :excadrill: :darmanitan-galar: :togekiss:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/a8d893a20a2413ff

Placing: 12th
Blog Link: http://yinyangpoke.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/01/01/162208
Pokemon: :tyranitar: :excadrill: :Dragapult: :hydreigon: :corviknight: :mimikyu:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/fc18687aae4c28e5

Placing: 13th
Blog Link: http://totone0724.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/01/01/142134
Pokemon: :darmanitan-galar: :toxapex: :Dragapult: :sylveon: :snorlax: :quagsire:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/f60034ca54930945

Placing: 14th
Blog Link: http://ikkipoke.hatenablog.com/entry/20200101/1577854173
Pokemon: :darmanitan-galar: :mimikyu: :Rotom-fan: :corviknight: :gastrodon: :toxapex:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/3e63e11e400900a2

Placing: 16th
Blog Link: https://pokesol.com/team/party3
Pokemon: :dragapult: :mimikyu: :Togekiss: :ferrothorn: :cloyster: :seismitoad:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/338f6b0e2b34d123

Placing: 18th
Blog Link: http://ikkipoke.hatenablog.com/entry/20200101/1577854173
Pokemon: :hippowdon: :excadrill: :hydreigon: :mimikyu: :dragapult: :corviknight:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/ea94939d1810bbeb

Placing: 20th
Blog Link: http://pythapoke.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/01/01/212916
Pokemon: :alcremie: :ferrothorn: :corviknight: :toxapex: :quagsire: :milotic:
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/c1d544c9d74d0770
 
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Whoops cinderace should be expert belt, you have to realise I have colour blindness so when I saw it on the image I couldnt tell the difference. Thanks for spotting it and it's edited now.
 

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