Jolteon is definitely still in OU, that thing wrecks everything.
I agree with Char X, but Greninja is only OU b/c of Protean really, without protean that thing is lucky to be RU.
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Other 6th Gen Pokemon OU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Blitzenith
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Jolteon is definitely still in OU, that thing wrecks everything.
I agree with Char X, but Greninja is only OU b/c of Protean really, without protean that thing is lucky to be RU.
I'm not hoping for it to be OU, this thing will be OU, or at least BL, it's Spe is spectacular coming short only 4 Spe stats from Infernape and equal to the speed of Garchomp and Terrakion (Huge threats in Gen V OU), it has greater SpA than Infernape's SpA and Atk, not to mention it has greater bulk and Fire/Psychic is a better typing than Fire/Fighting not only offensively but also Defensively. If Infernape made it to OU this guy will too. If you are comparing this thing with Victini, then I don't see where are you coming from. While Victini is truly a spectacular choice user, it's almost never special, leaving Physical walls walling it easily, while relying on 180 BP V-Create, it also Relies on 80 BP Zen Headbut, but the amazing 130 BP Bolt Strike, however, after one V-Create you are totally Cripples, if you have a Scarf then you might outspeed some stuff, it you are Banded then you are doomed, Delphox doesn't suffer that issue + it can hit Special Walls with Psyshock not to mention is has access to Switcheroo, making it immediately a better choice user than Victini. If you are comparing this ting to Chandelure, one this thing has better bulk AND Spe than Chandelure making it a better SubCM user, even though it lacks that 140 SpA, after +1 SpA it can truly do a lot, if you want to choice, Chandelure always carries a scarf which is easily predictable, Delphox can be holding Scarf or Specs, not to mention Delphox has not only better speed but better bulk, outclassing Chandelure as a Choice user and as a SubCM user. While this thing is weak to SR, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, and Aqua Jet, it can still be OU as many pokemons are weaker to more Priorities and Hazards + are more Fragile and still made it to OU.
I know that, and that's what I've been arguing so much about, even with Protean, it still isn't OU good, Finally someone that agrees with me.
Fire / Psychic: Super Effective against: Fight, Poison, Grass, Ice, Steel, and Bug.
Fire / Fighting: Super Effective against: Grass, Ice, Steel, Rock, Dark, and Bug.
It's the same but the reasons I said it because Fighting is More common than Rock in the Previous Gen and this Gen. Dark is more common than Poison the last Gen, but this Gen there's a lot more Poison types in the Metagame. Not to mention Almost all Psychics get Shadow Ball which gives SE against Ghost and Psychic (Just like how almost all water types receive Ice Beam) While the only thing almost all fighting types receive is Ariel Ace which does nothing.
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Which Poison types are going to OU besides Crobat and maybe Adaptability Dragalge?
Venasaur, Gengar, Tentacruel (might drop, but who knows?), Roserade (probable UU, but will get some OU usage), Toxicroak (same boat as Tentacruel), and scolipede (speed boost) all have OU potential
Blaziken hits all of those just fine except possibly Tentacruel. Pretty irrelevant list in context.
Good luck outspeeding Gengar's Shadow Ball. Roserade and Scoliopede are irrelevant because they're weak to fire anyways. Toxicroak very likely will drop. Meanwhile having Fighting lets you get STAB coverage on Tyranitar, Heatran, and Terrakion, who are going to be way more prominent threats than Venusaur (due to loss of permanent sun) and Tentacruel (due to DeFog users).
Actually, it does. Protean turns Greninja into the type of the move he will use, before the move is executed. This grants every move he will use a STAB.
Use Shadow Sneak, and it will turn you into Ghost before damage calculation. So, it get the extra 1.5 bonus. I mean, I've been using it in-game and this has been true. I figured that others didn't want to break it to you, and said nothing.....
Just wanted to clear some things up. Maybe Greninja is 'overrated' and gets way too much attention on for 'ermahgerd STAB on everything it's gonna wreck house', but even without its ability, to say it will drop to the depths of RU is a major overstatement. Greninja has a large movepool, consisting of a lot of moves that cover quite a lot in OU. Combine that with decent power and high Speed, and you have the exact same qualities that made Starmie the offensive threat it was for 5 straight generations. What's that, Greninja can't spin or Recover? No problem, as Greninja has its fair share of advantages, namely its access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and U-turn. That kind of coverage, speed, and versatility can be a force in OU, even without Protean (Starmie did fine without it).
As for Delphox, I can't really see it in OU. Fire + Psychic typing isn't better than Fire + Fighting in OU due to the prevelance of Tyranitar and Heatran, and the fact that physical Fighting moves have better power than Psyshock for busting open special walls. In fact, Infernape's Fighting typing lends it key advantages: SR and Pursuit neutrality. Delphox's Psychic typing gives it Fighting and Psychic resistances, but Conkeldurr and Breloom can still hit Delphox really hard, while Mega-Luke, Terrakion and Keldeo can outspeed it and beat it down, so only the Psychic resist matters...oh wait it doesn't because Psychic moves are really rare in OU aside from the faster Alakazam; many fast frail Psychics don't see OU usage for a reason (Tyranitar mostly).
The Victini comparison is kinda weak: Victini can easily run a special set (infamously known for breaking down traditional checks in Slowbro, Gligar and Rhyperior) with moves like Blue Flare, Thunder, Glaciate and Focus Blast, all of which Delphox do not have. Victini can use Trick so Delphox's access to Switcheroo isn't exclusive anymore, not like Victini needs to switch items to cripple opponents when it can just tear them apart. V-Create is a freakin' nuke of a move which perfectly fits the hit-and-run style of Choice sets (Victini even knows U-turn to rub it in), so Delphox suffers competition yet again.
Wallbreaker, special sweeper, Choice...Delphox suffers heavy competition from Victini in most of the roles it tries to perform. Delphox's best set imo would be SubCM to take advantage of its stat spread, but that won't be enough to breach into OU where Volcarona resides. As per mentioned, Delphox struggles to distinguish itself from Fire-types that can accomplish more.
You're missing an important point, though, and that's the relative power and usefulness of fighting vs psychic attacks.
For STAB, on the special side, Psychic users have access to: Psychic (90), Psyshock (80, but hits physical) and Extrasensory (80). On the physical side they have Zen Headbutt (80) and Psycho Cut (70).
On the special side, fighting users have: Focus Blast (120) and Aura Sphere (80) and priority in Vacuum Wave (40). On the physical side they have access to Focus Punch (150), Hi Jump Kick (130), Close Combat (120), Superpower (120), Cross Chop (100), and priority in Mach Punch (40).
You compare Infernape's bast stats to Delphox's to argue that Delphox will be OU, but this really misrepresents the power of the two. Infernape had 120 STAB attacks in Close Combat and Flare Blitz to run off its 104 attack; the best Delphox can manage is Psyshock (80), Psychic (90) and Fire Blast (110). In addition, Infernape's usefulness as a wallbreaker was contingent on its ability to utilise both its offensive stats. Delphox can't do the same. Infernape had the capacity to significantly buff either stat with access to both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance. Delphox gets Calm Mind.
Delphox has its own advantages and uses, but a comparison with Infernape simply is not apt. It can't function in the same way that Infernape did, and would be foolish to try.
This is what I thought, but I'm far from experienced enough to be correcting anyone.
Ok, first off, 104 speed is not that great anymore. You talk about it being able to hit fighting types, that's all well and good, but the two fighting types used the most often by far both outspeed Delphox by an extra 4 speed points. Good luck killing them after they're done wiping the floor with you using STAB rock and water moves off of close to 130 offenses. (Because btw, terrakion's speed is better than delphox's.) Yes, you are now faster than Garchomp. What are you going to do to him? The answer: nothing that Infernape can't already do. BTW, I wasn't even comparing him to infernape, because that is a foolish thing to do. I notice people who support Delphox tend to get upset at comparisons to Victini, but Infernape is probably as far removed from Delphox as a fire type can get (unless you're talking about the rare wholly special Infernape sets, which are still better than Delphox's due to higher BP stab moves and higher speed). And also, Infernape has been trending downward since fifth gen. IMO, he'll be lucky to make OU this gen (which sucks, he was my favorite in fourth gen).
And in no universe is fire/psychic a better defensive typing than fire/fighting. Aside from the obvious stealth rock weakness, you trade a pursuit reisit for being pursuit weak. Being pursuit weak is one of the worst things a choice user can be. With the prolific Assault Vest Tyranitar running around OU, I can assure you that any choice delphox is a dead man walking. Fire/Psychic, my god. Probably one of the worst defensive typings in the game.
I'd rather trade being able to fair damage to venusaur for not getting destroyed in one turn if the opponent has a tyranitar, one of the most OU of the OUs (and the ability to hit Heatran, a trait most fire types would kill for).
And no, Victini is still a better choice user, even specially. Thunderbolt? the newly buffed energy ball? U-turn? (also victini has psyshock too) If people needed a fire type special choice user who was also weak to pursuit and was in a middiling speed tier then they could just as easily turn to Victini, since U-turn is far better on a choice user than trick, and Victini has far better, higher BP coverage to boot. And I just got done arguing in a different thread about why it's ridiculous to think that V-create is not a good move, and I'm not going to repeat myself here. It was in the thread 'starters role in the metagame' if you really want to look it up and come back and tell me I'm wrong.
And please. somewhat better bulk means nothing if you're fire/psychic. Chandelure has the now dragonlike ghost typing, and he will force more switches due to the immunities that provides, not to mention the now obscenely fantastic STAB it gives him. Really, try switching in a cm delphox against a good team, which is incredibly difficult due to the lack of immunities, terrible typing, and low bulk. Chandelure has three immunities, two of them to two of the most commonly used offensive types in the game. Then on the next turn,
And Aldrius said:
And that's why people will use the latis as psychic types instead of Delphox. Because they do more, faster, stronger, and with better coverage, plus again, Delphox doesn't outspeed terrakion. Really, hitting Mega-Venusaur is the only thing it does better than Volcarona or any other fire type (besides victini). I'd way rather be able to hit the latis (volcarona) or heatran, tyranitar, terrakion, and the blobs (Infernape, though he's probably dropping). And everything that Heatran does, which is a lot.
Now onto Greninja.
See, but the thing is, it HAS protean. Arguing what it would be without it is probably one of the stupidest exercises I can imagine. Greninja is offensive starmie, except faster, stronger, bulkier, and getting STAB on every move. Which means in effect, he gets flamethrower, thunderbolt, stronger shadow ball, plus pretty much anything else you can think of. If he doesn't make OU, I don't know what will.
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Well, Gastrodon and Shedinja beat Kyogre! Even with CM, they beat him! Kyogre for NU, seriously!
What kind of logic is this? Every Pokemon has checks! Obviously, Ttar and Heatran don't suck in OU, unlike Gastrodon and Shedinja do in Ubers, but seriously, with your logic, every Pokemon in the game with more than one check or counter (Which is all of them, by the way) is crap just because it can conceivably be beaten. It's not like Talonflame is the best Pokemon ever or anything, but come on!
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You said it bro, Chandelure lacks Bulk that Delphox has, which makes Delphox a better CubCM even though he won't hit as hard, he will survive possibly more hits, While Chandelure is definitely a better Choice Scarf user, and Abuses Choice Specs more, Chandelure has base 80 Spe which will make him outspeed almost nothing even with Timid, while with Delphox's Spe + Timid can outspeed a lot (Including Garchomp meaning no Garchomp switching in on Delphox b/c Specs timid Psyshock 2HKOs, and btw I could've sworn Terrakion's spe was base 104 not 108).
Almost all Victini's I saw were either Banded or Physical Scarfed, the couple I saw that were Specced almost never had Psyshock (even Special Scarf), and if Victini or Infernape both ran mixed making them hard to wall, Delphox shares the trait with Psyshock (even though 80 BP) While both Victini and Infernape have high BP moves, Delphox has better Attacking Stats, now I'm not saying Delphox is better than Infernape, Victini or Infernape (My 3 most favorite fire types) but I'm seeing that Delphox is equally good or at least slightly worse, Which should make him UU+ (If anything, a replacement for Victini if Victini goes to OU), people really underestimate him, when people didn't even bother to Choice him, I have a Choice Scarf on him couples with Mega Char Y on a Sun team and he is fantastic (Modest), though I'd still assume Choice Scarf Chandelure is better, Infernape is probably not better on a sun team.
Almost all Victini's I saw were either Banded or Physical Scarfed, the couple I saw that were Specced almost never had Psyshock (even Special Scarf), and if Victini or Infernape both ran mixed making them hard to wall, Delphox shares the trait with Psyshock (even though 80 BP) While both Victini and Infernape have high BP moves, Delphox has better Attacking Stats, now I'm not saying Delphox is better than Infernape, Victini or Infernape (My 3 most favorite fire types) but I'm seeing that Delphox is equally good or at least slightly worse, Which should make him UU+ (If anything, a replacement for Victini if Victini goes to OU), people really underestimate him, when people didn't even bother to Choice him, I have a Choice Scarf on him couples with Mega Char Y on a Sun team and he is fantastic (Modest), though I'd still assume Choice Scarf Chandelure is better, Infernape is probably not better on a sun team.
Fire/Psychic is an atrocious defensive typing, especially in a metagame where Tyranitar exists, let alone one where it's a dominant force. Being outclassed by another Pokemon with such an awful typing can't be good for Delphox. You say Victini is never special, however, Victini's unpredictability is what makes it so good. It has Blue Flare, Psychic/shock, 77% accurate Focus Blast and Thunder, and Grass Knot. You can't just switch a physical wall into Victini and expect to beat it. Not to mention, Victini can still go mixed with a set that has 3 special attacks and V-create. Delphox has almost none of that and is entirely predictable. Its 4 extra base Speed doesn't matter all that much when Keldeo and Terrakion are still faster than it. Victini was nowhere near making OU last gen, so saying that Delphox will when it's entirely worse is ridiculous.
The bulk difference doesn't matter, because the typing on Delphox is so terrible and the bulk so below average-average that if you're choosing to use Delphox for defensive reasons, you're choosing it for even wronger reasons than usual. You take neutral U-turns, so good luck switching in on a smart player with scizor (who most fire types wouldn't blink at). No immunities, which is a big thing for a pokemon with those defenses and which needs a pretty ready set of switch in chances. You choose Heatran and Volcarona if you want a fire type that can take hits, not Delphox. Volcarona, by the way, is far better than Delphox at CM sweeping in OU, because his CM boosts his speed as well.Plus he's more powerful and has recovery. And if you compare delphox to other psychic CM users, the latis are humilioated that you're even comparing Delphox to them. When you talk about Delphox being that high and powerful, you don't compare his CM to Chandelure, you compare it to Volcarona and the latis. Once you start getting lower, timid base 80 on Chandelure outspeeds all the important things that need outspeeding, plus his set of immunities in a metagame currently rife with blazikens and lucarios is far more useful for setting up a CM. Plus no garchomp is going to be switching in on a +1 delphox, man. The other, many pokemon that completely wall delphox will. Garchomp will switch in maybe after something is dead, and then good luck.
No. You should really just look these things up.
You keep talking up that 104 speed like it's the end all be all, but it's really just minutely above average. delphox is probably one of the most predictable pokemon around. And it's hard countered by many of the top pokemon in OU. A slightly above average speed, small movepool, terrible typing, and mediocre bulk do not make a pokemon good, especially a pokemon outclassed by just about every other fire type. If above average speed and good offenses were the requirements, Sceptile would be OU. He has better + stronger coverage, unpredictability (dat unburden physical set, man), better defensive typing, and higher speed, plus he's not trapped and walled as easily as delphox. But he's down in RU.
There's a reason, and that's V-create. Because V-create is so damn good. But that doesn't mean that Victini can't run specs or special sets. Like I said, if people really needed a special choice pokemon that was pursuit weak, had middling speed, and fire stab, then people would probably still use victini, because he has better coverage moves + higher stab + U-turn. The offensive stat difference doesn't make a difference, because Victini does more damage due to the higher BP of his STABs and coverage. Plus he can run one slot V-create, so the blobs don't wall him. Plus he can u-turn out pf predicted Ttars. Delphox has none of that (and he's far bulkier than Delphox, if you're really that set on using Delphox because it's "bulky").
And good luck running that delphox on your sun team come december. Once heatran and the latis are running around (all three of whom drop sun teams like a bad habit), that delphox is going to be deadweight. Sun teams need every teamslot they can get, and Delphox does nothing any other pokemon doesnt. Infernape won't be much better, but at least he hits Heatran.
Ok ok, when comparing Delphox to other OU pokemons he really is outclassed though but not by much, so he should make it at least to UU.
And While Heatran is really annoying I already have plans for that, Dugtrio (Arena Trap) and Hawlucha (Since in double battles hopefully Fire Types will scare Ice types + Hawlucha doesn't die from Ice Shard Mamoswine or Weavile and I have things that are faster than Weavile's Ice Punch) not to mention Chandelure (which will be replacing Delphox) not only OHKO-es Latias but also 2HKO-es Heatran both with Specs Shadow Ball (2HKO-es Latias if Scarfed and 3HKO-es Heatran)
And While Heatran is really annoying I already have plans for that, Dugtrio (Arena Trap) and Hawlucha (Since in double battles hopefully Fire Types will scare Ice types + Hawlucha doesn't die from Ice Shard Mamoswine or Weavile and I have things that are faster than Weavile's Ice Punch) not to mention Chandelure (which will be replacing Delphox) not only OHKO-es Latias but also 2HKO-es Heatran both with Specs Shadow Ball (2HKO-es Latias if Scarfed and 3HKO-es Heatran)
Been thinkin the same, most of the previous tier's OU pokemon will likely remain this Gen too .. well, maybe Haxorus will drop, cause he was on the verge of, if I am not wrong. And Metagross, likely.
Anyway, on to opinions about OU candidates, I think Florges could be OU. While some may say that she's likely goin to be UU or somethin (which I agree to as an idea), it is true that she's quite a special sponge, she can hit back moderately hard, has a plethora of support moves. Haven't played much with or against her, but she seems to be soakin up hits well. Specs Rotom-W's thunderbolt, for example, does like .. 30%. Definitely not the best of the pokemon, but she's pretty durable.
Barnaracle also has potential, although he may not make it because of Cloyster generally outclassin him. But he could still be OU since it could be quite a monster in lower tiers (if you are a bit lucky with Stone Miss, at least), thus maybe he goes OU (or BL).
Haxorus would be BL at lowest anyway, it's way too strong for UU. Even with fairies likely to be all over lower tiers, even haxorus coverage moves would wreck lower tiers.
With all the power creep metagross could drop though, it has plenty of checks even in UU. Things like slowbro and tangrowth can take anything metagross wants to do, and with fire being so popular in UU last gen metagross may not even see much usage there.
Delphox just doesn't have enough tools to be OU; bad typing, pursuit weakness, weak to both aqua jet and shadow sneak. It might find a spot in UU but certainly not OU.
With all the power creep metagross could drop though, it has plenty of checks even in UU. Things like slowbro and tangrowth can take anything metagross wants to do, and with fire being so popular in UU last gen metagross may not even see much usage there.
Delphox just doesn't have enough tools to be OU; bad typing, pursuit weakness, weak to both aqua jet and shadow sneak. It might find a spot in UU but certainly not OU.
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