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A Unique Leafeon?

Perfection

I know what you may be thinking... Leafeon cannot possibly have a better option than the Standard with its limited movepool?

Let's look at the statistics:

Resistances to 3 common types: Grass, Ground, Water.

Weak to-
Poison (Rarely used)
Flying (Only Togekiss/Staraptor/Yanmega use Flying Moves)
Bug (Only Heracross uses Megahorn, and the occassional Rhyperior).
Ice
Fire

Leafeon does have 130 Base Defense, which makes up for its 65 Base Hp, and some of its weaknesses (like Ice Punch Weavile).

Leafeon: @ Leftovers
Impish
196 Evs HP, 136 Defense, 176 Attack

Curse
Baton Pass
Substitute
Leaf Blade

You stat up as much as you can before switching out. This is kinda like a Calm Mind Raikou set, except you have Baton Pass over Hidden Power. With this EV Spread, you get 300 Attack before a single curse, 320 HP, and a Sturdy 330 Defense.

Unlike the other "Standard set", you get strong defensive Subs, and 2 boosted stats.

Substitute is important for a slow baton passer inorder to stay alive, plus with +Defense, it'll take hits better in this faster-paced Physical oriented Metagame.

This can also be a beneficial Trick Room Baton Passer, as you get what you need: minus speed, and some attack power (in addition to Defense which is important in Stall Trick Room teams).

Why not just use Umbreon?

Leafeon is not weak to the ever common Fighting, and doesn't mind getting Taunted by Gyarados/Gliscor if it can hit them hard for a Nuetral 135 BP Attack off at least 300 Base Attack (depending on whether or not curse was used, it can be more than 300).

Umbreon relies on Payback for damage which does little unless hit first. Which gives them time to Swords Dance/Dragon Dance.

Leafeon has a surprise factor as well, (no one really uses him) and they expect a fast Swords Dancer, (in which they send in a faster Ice Beamer), whereas Leafeon can take Ice Punches, and Substitute up.

Obviously Skarmary walls him, but that doesn't mean he cannot be used. (Imagine, he Stops other common Roar users *Hippowdon, Suicune, Swampert, Donphan*, etc.) and can score a surprise Critical Hit against Hippowdon if it tries to Curse/Stock pile.
 
It's interesting.

I'd like to see more than a concept though. Can you give us some numbers?

How about ice users (starmie, weavile, maybe even blissey)
and maybe some resisted attacks
and maybe show off the damage potential of the set as well

they only thing I can see being a huge problem is when the sub is being placed up, a pokemon is switching in to beat it, and if that pokemon uses special attack, you're going to have to BP. It looks good on paper but I don't think that it'll live that long.

Plus I'm a much larger fan of keeping speed and boosting attack another stage.
 
Swords Dance passing is much better in the fast paced d/p environment. Cursers don't work in this generation.

Leafeon doesn't need defensive boosts, it can tank hits quite well with its massive defenses, as you said earlier. SD passing is much quicker and easier to pull off, and there are many more pokemon that can benefit from an SD than there are ones that can use Curses.

With that said, there's also the fact that Umbreon does this much better. Leafeon's lack of Taunt really hurts it, especially because using Leafeon is like asking your opponent to start sweeping with Heatran and Salamence. Even things like Magnezone, Zapdos and Gengar get free switchins, and will cause a great deal of damage to Leafeon with its piss-poor spdef and force it to switch (or will do enough to make Leafeon useless in the rest of the battle). Heck, Umbreon even has a better trait and better typing, and it also has the spdef to take on threats from both sides. Grass typing is bad, attack-wise and defensively.

This set is a nice idea, but it is really outclassed by Umbreon. There is no reason to use this set over the same set on Umbreon.
 
Hey, don't scare me with that "Unique Leafeon" title! I thought you were going to post a Dig/Natural Gift set!

It's not a bad idea, really, though Umbreon is my preferred Curse passer due to better defenses (then again, he can't use the boosts). What everybody says about Cursing being less viable in DP is (somewhat) true, though in some circumstances (ohai Dusknoir) it would make sense.
 
Yeah I'm not sure if this is super "Unique" by any means but it does seam to have potential. But like, what the hell do you do when a team carry's Infernape and Togekiss. Those are two super common OU poke ATM so you better be passing to a counter.
 
Works for TRoom, and the same can be said about Umbreon (Infernape, and Togekiss can just as easily flinch hax it to death). Yes low Sp. Def, but better Defense, and good resistances.

And to be quite honest, the same arguments can be said about the Jynx Luna Set, but that doesn't mean it can't work. Heatran/Infernape can switch in just as easily, as can magnezone and some of your other examples. (Even a Gengar can and survive a Calm Mind boosted Ice beam and hit its sub w/ SBall).

Leaf Blade also can score CHits, and counters many of the threats we see today: Swampert/Cune/Hippowdon/Rhyperior/Slowking+bro/Tyranitar/Starmie (it cannot counter but it can survive 1 Ice Beam and Leaf Blade).

To be honest, I don't know the calculatons nor do I know how to get them on pokemon, but if someone were willing to do them, it would be appreciated. (On common threats listed above, and just on other general threats, like Hitting Weavile and surviving Ice Punch), etc.

Remember: Leaf > Umbr

B/c of better att/def, more common resistances, and Leaf Blade getting STAB and being such an exlcusive attack.

Just as you could say Togekiss kills Leafeon, you could say Machamp counters Umbreon?
 
Point of this set is substitute, if you swords pass, they have an easier time switching in to kill it, with sub. you can survive their hits, and curse behind it.

SDance set doesn't use Substitute, and if it did, it wouldn't take many hits b/c it has 0 EVs invested in Defense.
 
qcvtunm said:
B/c of better att/def, more common resistances, and Leaf Blade getting STAB and being such an exlcusive attack.
Click to expand...

That isn't the point. Grass has more resists than Dark, iirc, but Grass is also weak to two of the most common move-types (Ice and Fire). Leafeon just doesn't have the stability to pull this kind of set off effectively. Sure, its defense and attack are better, but Umbreon's def isnt too far behind it (and Umbreon is arguably more effective without any attacks, so Leafeon's base atk advantage really isn't worth anything).

Leafeon's defensive stability isn't the question. It's the special defense. Leafeon gives a free switchin to almost every powerful spatk based pokemon in OU. Umbreon does not, and it can live through the special attacks to boot while Leafeon simply can't even hit back from behind a sub with its awful Grass-type STAB.

Leaf Blade can hit a bunch of things SE and isn't a *horrible* move, but unfortunately it doesn't even touch any pokemon that a good battler would send into it. If anything, Leaf Blade being an almost-exclusive move hurts Leafeon because it makes it that much more predictable to play against.

qcvtunm said:
Just as you could say Togekiss kills Leafeon, you could say Machamp counters Umbreon?
Click to expand...

Everything has counters. Leafeon's counters are much more common, and Leafeon can not do anything to them. I don't think I've seen a team without at least two Ice type moves and a Fire type move, however, a much larger percentage of teams do not have any Fighting or Bug type moves. Fighting and Bug type moves are extremely predictable, whereas with Leafeon you have to kinda worry about that Snorlax/Garchomp/etc that might just have Fire Blast. Even Tyranitar is packing Ice Beam on most of its standard sets.

qcvtunm said:
Point of this set is substitute, if you swords pass, they have an easier time switching in to kill it, with sub. you can survive their hits, and curse behind it.

SDance set doesn't use Substitute, and if it did, it wouldn't take many hits b/c it has 0 EVs invested in Defense.
Click to expand...

The point is that Leafeon isn't supposed to take hits. It doesn't use sub because it just can't stay in long enough to pass a sub and a boost. Its 130 base def is more than enough to not worry about investing EVs in.

OK, so you substitute as your opponent brings in Heatran. They Fire Blast. What do you do? You are obviously OHKOd by it, and if you pass then you just wasted 25% of your Leafeon's precious HP. What I'm saying is that there are far too many standard OU pokemon that counter Leafeon to make this set worth using. The likelihood of you even passing a substitute is very slim, let alone multiple Curses, since your spread gives you only 195 speed. Leafeon's 95 base speed is awesome for SD passing, since it can outspeed neutral nature base 100s and pass your boost for free. Curse actually makes Leafeon *more* vulnerable to opposing threats. Eliminating the one advantage that Leafeon has over other BPers is stupid, for all of the reasons I've described above.
 
I was thinking about Leafeon for one of my teams.

I don't understand why you would want to pass Curses, as Leafeon is much more versatile with Swords Dance. Passing Curses would be more acceptable if you had a low speed, but Umbreon does it better. Leaf Blade is definitely a good move, but is commonly the only attacking move on it. Just stick with Umbreon if you're not passing SD's.

Some calcs for you:

Jolly CB 252 Atk Weavile Ice Punch: 78.8-92.8% (Possible OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Jolly 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard: 39.7-46.9% (Definite 3HKO)

Jolly 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Fang: 63.1-74.3%

Jolly 0 Sp. Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast: 75.9-89.4% (Not a OHKO, but Salamence will OHKO with Fire Blast all the time)

Calm 0 Sp. Atk Leftovers Blissey Ice Beam: 48.1-56.9% (Here is where you might want minimal sp. def investment to ensure a 3hko with leftovers)

A 266 Sp. Atk Ice beam: 69.1-81.3%

Doesn't seem as impressive as one would have hoped.
 
Just a quick correction here. Umbreon does rely on Payback for damage, but Payback's power boost comes from moving last in a turn, not from getting hit.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
Good idea Q but I have one major problem with it. I can't help comparing this to say Snorlax and Suicune, who also boost both offensive and defensive sides. Although Leafeon will be very hard to take down on the Physical side, it will get slaughtered on the special side. If a special special sweeper shows up that can take the Leaf Blade and break the sub (Specmence, Heatran, CM Jirachi to name a few), it will force a switch. Snorlax and Suicune don't have this problem as they naturally have great special and Physical defensive stats. The lesser stat is boosted however, making it hard to take down from any side of the spectrum. Leafeon only boosts its physical defensive stat, which is far superior than its pitiful spec defense.

If you make a team around it could work but yeah. Flareon could pull of this set better in the UU because it has decent special defense.

Hopefully this made sense.
 
the most popular special Sweepers all has a Grass resistance(Gengar,Heatran, Infernape,Salamence...) and can be brought in easily and then the boost is wasted because they are faster and can kill you with just one hit. Skarmory can also easily roar it out having no taunt, so with skarm getting in you can pass at most one curse/sub to cradily, what doesn't help, because cradily can't kill skarm.
Anyways Umbreon does this a lot better, having a excellent SDef and Taunt to block hazing, just use leafy to pass sd, eventually give it a few sdef to survive some hits and pass the sd sure, even faster Special Sweeper come in. But there will always be no real point in it, because fire moves kill, with even a lot of sdefevs.
 
Imo don't go for a bp set since Skarmory is hanging around everywhere and most of the times they will bring a Heatran or an Ice beam user . You might pass one curse, but after that your leafeon is wasted, since it has no recovery move and is slow as hell. Curse + Wish + Protect + Leaf blade could actually be more usable for late game accompanied with Magnezone + Duggy support (for skarmory and tran) .
 
having such a low sdef every special based sweeper can handle with this set, so you also can use curseskarm does this job better and has almost the same foes
curse wastes leafons good spd and theres no need to boost the def and atk is batter boosted by swords dance, so don't use curse leafeon pls :(
 
Astamatitos said:
Imo don't go for a bp set since Skarmory is hanging around everywhere and most of the times they will bring a Heatran or an Ice beam user . You might pass one curse, but after that your leafeon is wasted, since it has no recovery move and is slow as hell. Curse + Wish + Protect + Leaf blade could actually be more usable for late game accompanied with Magnezone + Duggy support (for skarmory and tran) .
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?? What is Skarmory going to do to Leafeon?

Leafeon uses SD
Player switches in Skarmory!

Leafeon uses Roar!

Leafeon is among the few pokemon who can outspeed and outphaze the phazers, is speedy enough to baton pass, has the defenses to withstand a hit and has the attack to greatly benefit from swords dance. Also its grass typing makes a perfect switch into Swampert and other bulky-grounds.

Of course, the other one that comes to mind is Gliscor, who is awesome in his own right... I wonder why people don't use him? (same base speed, roost, SD or rock polish pass... STAB earthquake... and Taunt)... Floatzel also comes to mind... But I really can't think of many pokemon who can do this job well.

-------

Anyway, Leafeon's primary advantage is its speed IMO... so curse doesn't work. As others have noted... Umbreon seems to pull off this set better.
 
If switching is such a big issue with Leafeon, you could do something like a curse jolteon which still has 296 Speed after the curse, which is a good thing against swine swap ins. Only 1 weakness but crap defense. I should try it,
 
Articanus said:
^^^ I like your name.

Taunt on Skarm is great, imo. Mine has Taunt, Spikes, Roost, Whirlwind @ Shed Shell.
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Thanks, if you weren't being sarcastic. I don't like it very much anymore. If only I'd known back in April 2006 that I wouldn't like it today... I know that I could get Admins to change it through the Admin CP, but I'm too attached to it now.

I can never find a place to put Taunt on Skarmory though. The Rest Talkers need to have Rest, Sleep Talk and Whirlwind (to take advantage of Sleep Talk's neutral priority), and they nearly always have Spikes too. The Standard spikers need Spikes/Stealth Rock, Roost and Whirlwind, and I rarely see one without its Flying move. The Swords Dance or Agility ones generally have more than one attacking move because they're offensive, and they need Roost, and aren't even that common anyway.
 
They don't all have to phaze. Just use something like Brave Bird/Taunt/Roost/Spikes.
 
Bologo said:
They don't all have to phaze. Just use something like Brave Bird/Taunt/Roost/Spikes.
Click to expand...
Taunt won't be much use if you're slower than Leafeon, which Skarm certainly is. You'll just end up taunting the BP recipient, who will be designed to attack. Therefore if that Pokemon can OHKO or takes little damage from Skarm, you'll essentially be giving them free setup.
 
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