Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

[forestflamerunner]

I have no problem with justifying your votes, but the discussion period is over for the S tier abilities. Many of these conversations should have taken place a few days ago. Perhaps the discussion period should have. been longer and I will address that in the A tier ability discussion phase. However, for now try not to get caught into discussions on the s tier abilities.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Apparently my point about Contrary wasn't clear enough, because everyone keeps completely ignoring it, so I'm going to be as straightforward as possible in big bold letters: S TIER ABILITIES DO NOT HAVE TO BE GOOD ON EVERY SINGLE POKÉMON IN THE GAME. No shit it's no good with boosting moves, but you can always, y'know, not use it on boosting sets.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Apparently my point about Contrary wasn't clear enough, because everyone keeps completely ignoring it, so I'm going to be as straightforward as possible in big bold letters: S TIER ABILITIES DO NOT HAVE TO BE GOOD ON EVERY SINGLE POKÉMON IN THE GAME. No shit it's no good with boosting moves, but you can always, y'know, not use it on boosting sets.

No but it does need to be good on a vast majority of them. It also needs too not require much out of the pokemon. Which Contrary requires a ton out of the pokemon. Way too much be even be worth considering for S tier IMO. But of course, I am just going to dabble on about stuff already said numerous times, so I am not doing to repeat it all over again.

 

[voodoo pimp]

No but it does need to be good on a vast majority of them. It also needs too not require much out of the pokemon. Which Contrary requires a ton out of the pokemon. Way too much be even be worth considering for S tier IMO. But of course, I am just going to dabble on about stuff already said numerous times, so I am not doing to repeat it all over again.

S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable.

I don't see anything about "has to be good independent of movepool" in there. Besides, that was mostly in response to people like alexwolf who are focusing way too much on setup sweepers.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I don't see anything about "has to be good independent of movepool" in there. Besides, that was mostly in response to people like alexwolf who are focusing way too much on setup sweepers.

It is not in there, it is in the description of that makes a B tier ability B.

B Tier- Abilities that are good but not as good as A Tier abilities either because they require a more customized movepool and stat spread to be effective, are more specialized in purpose or effect, or are have affects that are just flat out inferior to the affects of A or S Tier Abilities.

It fits with the abilities that are not as good as A tier because of the level of customization it needs. Now I am willing to give it the A tier because a +1 from intimidate and +1 Defense from Crunch is nice on everyone, but no where near game breaking as a S tier ability. The point is it needs way too much else out of the pokemon. It needs the stats and the movepool to be effective. Once again, look past the Draco Meteor Dragons. It offers little else. Also, set up sweepers are a big deal, because it flat out kills them and is the detrimental part of the ability. As stated before, people said Lucario could just spam close combat with it. Now I ask you what is better, the Lucario that gets +1 to both defenses spamming close combat or the Lucario that can use sword Dance, Agility or Nasty Plot. I'd say the second, as you are much easier two out speed and take out otherwise. In that case, Lucario wants any ability besides Contrary. He is just one of many pokemon who don't want it. I understand things like Blissey don't want Huge Power, but there is far less pokemon who don't want the other S abilities then Contrary, even then those abilities aren't harmful to them.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Prankster: No change
Contrary: No change

I think people are missing the point. S-tier abilities are not "every OU Pokemon's standard sets get much better automatically with this ability, or even "all Pokemon would appreciate this and probably use it over non S-tier alternatives". It is simply "a lot of Pokemon who would be otherwise unusable become very good with this ability." And yes, quite a few Pokemon would absolutely kill to have this ability. Serperior, which barely sees use in NU, is high DW OU due to the ability to spam Leaf Storm. And a lot of Pokemon get Leaf Storm, Superpower, Overheat, or Draco Meteor and would love to be able to attack and see their stats grow. Obviously, its not the best ability for set-up-sweepers. Just like Drizzle would be a pretty questionable ability on an offensive frail fire type with little coverage. But anything that isn't a set-up sweeper can get some use out of Contrary. Even two examples in Lucario and Cloyster could somehow pull bulky sets with Close Combat and Shell Smash respectively, and Cloyster could become a fairly good physical wall. Granted, they would almost never do this, but even the Pokemon designated as "this is a terrible ability" can get some use out of it. Given the distribution of Overheat and SuperPower alone, it is quite easy to see how Contrary is S-tier.

People have used Spidna in OU with this ability. SPIDNA. I think that certainly shows that it can make unviable Pokemon viable.

 

[voodoo pimp]

It is not in there, it is in the description of that makes a B tier ability B.

B Tier- Abilities that are good but not as good as A Tier abilities either because they require a more customized movepool and stat spread to be effective, are more specialized in purpose or effect, or are have affects that are just flat out inferior to the affects of A or S Tier Abilities.

Effective != makes bad Pokémon good and breaks already good Pokémon. Can you name any other B-tier abilities that would make an otherwise useless Pokémon viable in OU?

The point is it needs way too much else out of the pokemon. It needs the stats and the movepool to be effective. Once again, look past the Draco Meteor Dragons. It offers little else.

So what? Why do I have to look past Draco Meteor? That alone is enough to justify its position. Even if it only breaks a dozen or so Pokémon, that should still be enough.

Also, set up sweepers are a big deal, because it flat out kills them and is the detrimental part of the ability. As stated before, people said Lucario could just spam close combat with it. Now I ask you what is better, the Lucario that gets +1 to both defenses spamming close combat or the Lucario that can use sword Dance, Agility or Nasty Plot. I'd say the second, as you are much easier two out speed and take out otherwise. In that case, Lucario wants any ability besides Contrary. He is just one of many pokemon who don't want it. I understand things like Blissey don't want Huge Power, but there is far less pokemon who don't want the other S abilities then Contrary, even then those abilities aren't harmful to them.

All of which is completely irrelevant because you can just not use it on setup sweepers. Have you even been reading my arguments?

 

[alexwolf]

dragonite can draco meteor spam
lucario can close combat spam

many pokemon can take advantage of stat dropping moves

Even if some of my examples are flowed, the point remains the same. Many pokemons are hurt very badly with the ability Contrary, and can fall one or even 2 tiers with this ability(no QD Volcarona anyone?) .

Also Lucario with Close Combast is still shit, because Lucario's defenses are shitty, and without the Atk boosts, Lucario won't be doing anything...

Apparently my point about Contrary wasn't clear enough, because everyone keeps completely ignoring it, so I'm going to be as straightforward as possible in big bold letters: S TIER ABILITIES DO NOT HAVE TO BE GOOD ON EVERY SINGLE POKÉMON IN THE GAME. No shit it's no good with boosting moves, but you can always, y'know, not use it on boosting sets.

Something else that you seem to be missing too:

S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable.

Contrary doesn't make unusable pokemon viable often, no matter how you look at it. ~10 Pokes that become usable after being unusable is rare not often.

Also you are completely ignoring the fact that Contrary has one characteristic of tier F:

F Tier- abilities that truly have no competitive purpose in single battles or are downright detrimental to the Pokémon.

So Contrary doesn't belong to tier S no matter how you look at it. Not only it doesn't fill the requirements that an ability must to be in that tier, but it also has one characteristic that only tier F abilities have. So, imo, Contary should go in Tier A, AT BEST(Contrary sucks on much more pokes, than to the pokes that it makes usable from unusable)...

Finally your example about not using the ability on a set-up mon is completely irrelevant. We are seeing these abilities theoretically, and in a vacuum, so your example does not hold any ground. So if a set-up poke theoretically got Contrary, you couldn't come and say ''don't use Contrary on it'', because it would be his only ability, since again we are talking theoretically and seeing the abilities in a vacuum.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Effective != makes bad Pokémon good and breaks already good Pokémon. Can you name any other B-tier abilities that would make an otherwise useless Pokémon viable in OU?

So what? Why do I have to look past Draco Meteor? That alone is enough to justify its position. Even if it only breaks a dozen or so Pokémon, that should still be enough.

All of which is completely irrelevant because you can just not use it on setup sweepers. Have you even been reading my arguments?

No that is why I want it in A tier, because it can, if the pokemon has the right set of stats, moves, ect. It is funny because Speed Boost an A tier ability can break tons of pokemon, so can Tainted Lens. It is just, they aren't useful enough on enough of them to be S tier. Contrary is not useful enough on enough of them either. Also how is the bad part of a ability irrelevant? Your argument really holds little ground. I mean it is pretty silly of you to say you don't have to look past the Draco Meteor but we have to look past the Set Up Sweepers. Which I did, and I don't think it is a good enough ability. Breaking a dozen pokemon or so can be applied to plenty of A tier abilities. Look at the ability as a whole not just the good parts.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Prankster: 9 no change in tier, 4 change in tier, 1 abstain. Prankster remains S tier
Contrary: 5 Do not change, 8 change tier, 1 abstain. Contrary will be moved to a new tier.

The voting period for contrary’s new tier will begin now. Your Vote should be in bold and look something like this: Move contrary to _______ Tier. any vote not in bold will not be counted. The voting period will last 24 hours.Have fun.

 

[Naix]

Move Contrary to A Tier

 

[Manaphy]

Move Contrary to A Tier.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Move Contrary to A Tier.

Almost everything in the game could build a set based around the ability, and it has made Spidna usable in OU. That's power.

 

[doughboy]

Move Contrary to A Tier

At first I was going to say what was the point of doing this if it could only go down, then I realized you could vote to B or below

 

[StallMandibuzz]

Move Contrary to A Tier

Like I said before, there's just not enough viable Pokémon with the ability. If it became more mainstream, then maybe Contrary could really shine.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Move Contrary to A Tier

The how random stat dropping reversal is enough for it too be A tier. So I'll put my vote for A.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Well, I guess if it has to go somewhere, then we should Move Contrary to A Tier. On a side note:

Like I said before, there's just not enough viable Pokémon with the ability. If it became more mainstream, then maybe Contrary could really shine.

It seems that the core of the ongoing argument is that we aren't really agreeing on what the tiers actually mean, and comments like this one further demonstrate that problem. So it might be a good idea to come up with less ambiguous definitions before we do anything else.

 

[alexwolf]

Move Contrary to A tier

@Voodoo Pimp

The definitions are in the OP, and are clear enough i think. We have also mentioned before that when we are talking about each ability, we don't take into account which poke gets it in reality, as we are talking theoretically. So every simple poke could have every ability in this thread, and the abilities shouldn't be judged by the pokes that get it in reality.

So if some people misunderstand the OP, or didn't even read the whole OP, which is many of the guys that are posting here, it is not the fault of the thread. Most regular posters get the definitions and mostly, they get that every poke could have every ability, so i don't think that there is any problem. Furthermore, the basic core of the arguments that have been posted about Contrary getting moved to A tier, don't have to do with any misunderstanding of the OP, they just have to do with the nature of Contrary and the fact that it rarely breaks any poke, or makes it from unusable from usable (S tier abilities should OFTEN do this, not rarely, as described in the OP), while also making a lot of pokes bad (more than it makes good).

 

[voodoo pimp]

Furthermore, the basic core of the arguments that have been posted about Contrary getting moved to A tier, don't have to do with any misunderstanding of the OP, they just have to do with the nature of Contrary and the fact that it rarely breaks any poke, or makes it from unusable from usable (S tier abilities should OFTEN do this, not rarely, as described in the OP), while also making a lot of pokes bad (more than it makes good).

So basically what you're saying is "There's no misunderstanding, you're just wrong." You didn't actually respond to my point, you just restated the same argument you were using earlier.

 

[alexwolf]

So basically what you're saying is "There's no misunderstanding, you're just wrong." You didn't actually respond to my point, you just restated the same argument you were using earlier.

I am saying that any user that reads the OP carefully won't have any problems of misunderstanding. Of 'course there are going to be disagreements about how each tier is defined, but this is only logical, since each user has its own point of view. The basic point is to put everyone in the same direction (which already happens with careful readers in this thread), and still leave room for discussion about the abilities themselves and the tiers.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Well, I guess if it has to go somewhere, then we should Move Contrary to A Tier. On a side note:


It seems that the core of the ongoing argument is that we aren't really agreeing on what the tiers actually mean, and comments like this one further demonstrate that problem. So it might be a good idea to come up with less ambiguous definitions before we do anything else.

If one person misunderstands the tier's definitions, it doesn't mean they are not clear enough. I personally fine them fine. If we want to debate what the tiers mean I guess we could, but I think they are clearly written as they are, and really don't need to be changed at all.

 

[Twins]

Even if some of my examples are flowed, the point remains the same. Many pokemons are hurt very badly with the ability Contrary, and can fall one or even 2 tiers with this ability(no QD Volcarona anyone?) .

Also Lucario with Close Combast is still shit, because Lucario's defenses are shitty, and without the Atk boosts, Lucario won't be doing anything...

Something else that you seem to be missing too:

Contrary doesn't make unusable pokemon viable often, no matter how you look at it. ~10 Pokes that become usable after being unusable is rare not often.

Also you are completely ignoring the fact that Contrary has one characteristic of tier F:

So Contrary doesn't belong to tier S no matter how you look at it. Not only it doesn't fill the requirements that an ability must to be in that tier, but it also has one characteristic that only tier F abilities have. So, imo, Contary should go in Tier A, AT BEST(Contrary sucks on much more pokes, than to the pokes that it makes usable from unusable)...

Finally your example about not using the ability on a set-up mon is completely irrelevant. We are seeing these abilities theoretically, and in a vacuum, so your example does not hold any ground. So if a set-up poke theoretically got Contrary, you couldn't come and say ''don't use Contrary on it'', because it would be his only ability, since again we are talking theoretically and seeing the abilities in a vacuum.

Yeah, Contrary is never going to be the only ability of any Pokemon. It won't make any Pokemon useless, because you can just run the other abilities if you want to set up. Even if such a Contrary-only pokemon were to hypothetically exist, Nintendo wouldn't make it useless, because that's stupid. Look at Huge Power and Pure Power. Nintendo didn't put them on things with base 5 attack, did they? No, they generally try to balance out abilities as best as they can (although Regigigas and Slaking beg to differ).

Contrary won't be very helpful on the majority of pokemon, but for the ones that it does, it's an absolutely amazing ability. To me, this is a perfect example of an A Rank ability.

Move Contrary to A Tier

---
Also, closing up the Prankster discussion, I'm glad we left it in S Rank. It belongs to be there, and despite users like Volbeat and Murkrow residing in NU, it gives each of them a viable and unique role in the OU metagame. Prankster doesn't come with instant massive usage like with Drizzle and Drought, but it does make useless pokemon useful, and does a very good job at it too. S Rank all the way.

 

[alexwolf]

@ Twins

Yeah because GF have never screwed any poke before with bad abilities...(Regigigas, Slaking, etc)

Also i don't understand why you are telling that Contrary would never be the only ability on a poke. Does it matter? What matters is that Contrary would make many pokes bad, even if you decided to take the other ability, and this is one of the reasons it doesn't deserve it's S Tier status.

 

[dragonuser]

Move Contrary to A-Tier

also

It seems that the core of the ongoing argument is that we aren't really agreeing on what the tiers actually mean, and comments like this one further demonstrate that problem. So it might be a good idea to come up with less ambiguous definitions before we do anything else.

I definitely agree, as for a lot of our arguments we are citing the definition's in the OP. Having more defined tiers would prevent a lot of confusion and more precise tiering.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Contrary will be moved to A tier. The A tier ability discussion and nomination period will start now and last for five days. As for the tier definitions, if you have more concise definitions for all the tiers, PM them to me and I will review them. You have to understand though that when your trying to compare abilities that are so different, like drought and prankster, there will always be some ambiguity.