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Abortion

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akuchi said:
You never actually said what's so bad about the enjoyment of sex, leaving me to believe it's some creepy puritanical THE HUMAN BODY IS DISGUSTING thing.
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The enjoyment of sex has the same problem as the enjoyment of alcohol. There's a time and a place (and in the case of sex, a person) and people often don't realise this because they're having sex with people they don't love (one violation of morals already) and when they haven't fully matured yet (another violation of morals, albeit a slightly smaller one) and, like with alcohol, they're having too much (one could argue that this is a third moral error). Sex can be a wonderful thing if done in the proper frame of mind, but sadly this seldom appears to be the case.

If you want to convince me otherwise on this point, you're going to have to start providing evidence.

Also, I think this derailing dispute has gone on in this topic for long enough. If you wish to continue, please do so via PM.
 
MS pretty much wrote what I was gonna write. It seems to be many pro-life supporters that don't think being pregnant, giving birth and take care of a child for like 18-20 years or put it away for adoption is such a big deal. :/

I am not suprised that most of the extreme pro-life supporters (especially those who aren't even make a exception for raped girls) seems to be men.

And this whole argument that women can't make a decision about abortion because of hormonal-things is just ridiculous. I think the biggest reason women makes the wrong decision is because she do what she thinks her family want her to do. But as far as I have read the majority of the women who do abortion thinks they did the right thing so I think they are the best persons to decide what to do with our own bodies, letting a politican choose would just making us some kind of minors.

Nah, forcing girls to have babies will just cause suffering, but abort a fetus who isn't really alive or can feel anything doesn't. Why don't minimize the suffering by allowing the mother to choose?
 
I've had a few female friends with high school boyfriends decide to have sex for the very first time, and stuff like condom's breaking has happened to them. Now in one case, my friend was 15 years old when it happened. Think about this for all you people who call abortion "murder" (the whole homeostasis point by jr7 is pretty accurate too). She had her entire life in front of her, to party and have fun, finish school and go on to have a successful career and then settle down and have kids when she's older. Think about what a kid would do to her life. She would no longer have the social life she once enjoyed, and fuck thinking about any career whilst being a teenage mum (A teenage single mum since the father pretty much ditched her). She would be stressed, not enjoy her life and not only that she'd ruin her kids life too. She'd have struggled to support him or her, wouldn't have had the patience and the emotional strength to nurture him like she potentially would when she was in her 30's or something. Yeah adoption is an option, but there is also an emotional attachment and an overridden sense of guilt for mothers who take that route.
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Having seen someone keep the kid, this.
 
Objection said:
So why should hospitals prioritise pregnant women who want an abortion above victims of car accidents, cancer or even back pains?
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I'm don't work at a hospital / not a doctor, but to my knowledge women seeking to get an abortion and people needing emergency care after a car accident don't really go in the same wards of the hospital. Cancer ward, psychiatric ward, pregnancy ward, trauma ward... Etc, etc. Women who get abortions would probably be out-patients anyway. And finally, abortion clinics. You don't take the car accident victim to the abortion clinic.

Oh and can you stop with your moral parade anti-sex bullshit?
 
Wishy said:
I'm don't work at a hospital / not a doctor, but to my knowledge women seeking to get an abortion and people needing emergency care after a car accident don't really go in the same wards of the hospital. Cancer ward, psychiatric ward, pregnancy ward, trauma ward... Etc, etc. Women who get abortions would probably be out-patients anyway. And finally, abortion clinics. You don't take the car accident victim to the abortion clinic.
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This still isn't a valid point. If there is less demand for abortions, there is less professionals practicing it. Those would likely be doing something else in the medical world. It takes up ressources in the wider global healthcare system.

That said, it should still be allowed and free to all women.. but only up to a level so it doesn't reach abuse point. Rare are women that abuse anyway, as going through an abortion is not a pleasuring experience women enjoy going through (much less many times).

I say after the first abortion (always leaving rape and direct danger to health aside), there should be a portion of the cost paid by the woman.
 
MS said:
I've had a few female friends with high school boyfriends decide to have sex for the very first time, and stuff like condom's breaking has happened to them. Now in one case, my friend was 15 years old when it happened. Think about this for all you people who call abortion "murder" (the whole homeostasis point by jr7 is pretty accurate too). She had her entire life in front of her, to party and have fun, finish school and go on to have a successful career and then settle down and have kids when she's older. Think about what a kid would do to her life. She would no longer have the social life she once enjoyed, and fuck thinking about any career whilst being a teenage mum (A teenage single mum since the father pretty much ditched her). She would be stressed, not enjoy her life and not only that she'd ruin her kids life too. She'd have struggled to support him or her, wouldn't have had the patience and the emotional strength to nurture him like she potentially would when she was in her 30's or something. Yeah adoption is an option, but there is also an emotional attachment and an overridden sense of guilt for mothers who take that route.
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You think that adoption is not a real option here? She may very well have felt more guilt for killing the life forming inside of her than by giving it an actual shot at a real life, no way to know. She acted irresponsibly by having sex in the first place and she should have taken responsibility for the life she created. I can see the reasoning and logic here, but it was still selfish. Unfortunately, those are left to personal choices, and I really like freedom so, oh well, they can do what they want, regardless of how right or wrong it may be. Sure, I think it is wrong to take away someone's chance at life, but others do not. Not much sense arguing about something that will never be resolved.
 
Janenmori said:
You think that adoption is not a real option here? She may very well have felt more guilt for killing the life forming inside of her than by giving it an actual shot at a real life, no way to know. She acted irresponsibly by having sex in the first place and she should have taken responsibility for the life she created. I can see the reasoning and logic here, but it was still selfish. Unfortunately, those are left to personal choices, and I really like freedom so, oh well, they can do what they want, regardless of how right or wrong it may be. Sure, I think it is wrong to take away someone's chance at life, but others do not. Not much sense arguing about something that will never be resolved.
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If I'm pregnant, adoption is not an option because it would ruin my life, forever. It would completely screw up my life (and I know the unpleasantness of finding out your 'real' parent is not your biological parent). I am not willing to have my entire life fucked up because of one slip with contraception.. not least when the man gets off prettty much scot-free.
If I am (and I hope I'm not) I'm going to have an abortion and I will feel either no guilt or negligable guilt. Guilt, if I have any, will be due to pro-life rhetoric telling me I am a HEARTLESS MURDERING BITCH.
However, I am entirely confident that abortion would be the right choice to make, both for me and the potential child.
 
If I'm pregnant, adoption is not an option because it would ruin my life
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How exactly would putting an unwanted child up for adoption ruin your life? I'm assuming that the child is unwanted otherwise you wouldn't be considering abortion either.
 
It's not just 'mental problems' - which, by the way, I have as a result of being raped and would view being forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy as a pretty similar violation - an intrusion into my body I have no control over.

Having said that I am not underplaying the vast psychological damage I would sustain as a result of being forced to give birth to a baby I didn't want. It's the fact my entire god damn life starts this year and I am not about to throw that away.

You're also ignoring the fact that I'm quite a smart woman with a self-destructive streak as long as your arm, so I'd figure a way to get that pregnancy out of me some way, be it misoprotol, herbal remedies, the classic coathanger or drinking myself into sweet, sweet oblivion every evening. Placing potential rights above actual rights - my rights.

And, Objection, I'm about to start my life! Go to university, sort out my catalogue of nuclear holocaust-esque relationships, make something of myself, do something fucking fantastic with my life that I enjoy. Having a baby would entirely fuck that up even if I signed the adoption papers and never thought of it again (something I do not think I would be able to do - having an abortion is quite different to wondering quite how that living sack of pus and shit I ejected from my vagina 10 years ago is doing on her school football team). This is also not taking into accounts the potential father, who is also in education and would much rather I aborted as far as I'm aware - having a child then giving it up would really fuck him over too.
 
I would have thought that the child would only really be a concern if you actually wanted it in the first place, but I can actually believe now that that wouldn't be the case for you specifically akuchi.
 
Janenmori said:
Mental problems can be treated. Not being alive cannot, which is why it is generally the better alternative.
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Sometimes it's just better to kill the damn thing and save everyone the misery; I'd rather not be born as akuchi's unwanted child who MIGHT get adopted, if lucky (bear in mind that it's not as simple as "okay let's put it up for adoption and everything will work out").

I always find these sort of arguments frustrating, since, really, neither option if justified (neither option is wrong, too). In fact, any normative opinion, by its nature, is not falsifiable, thus utterly meaningless (which is why all this debate will ever be is an endless quarrel, with no resolution).

So all we're left with is what we think would be the best decision and ultimately, I believe the empathetic decision is to not let the child be born if his birth is unwanted; fuck potential life, fuck whatever you think about murder and kill the fuckin' thing so it doesn't have to bear existing (since those considering putting it up for abortion likely have good reasons--reason enough to not want to ever be born). In fact, I think being born into a shitty situation is like a sick joke.

And I hate to flame, but you honestly sound like a bit of a douche when you say that mental problems can be treated, as though it is easy, or that life is even worthwhile when you are trying to overcome your mental problems. I can't say that I relate, but from what I've gathered it is not easy to overcome certain mental trauma, sometimes impossible (such as... being the product of rape).

Obviously though I am not claiming to be right or wrong (since that would be inconsistent with my previous claim). If you respond, don't expect a response back; I'm not interested in debating (as I feel it would be a fruitless and annoying endeavor). I just felt my opinion was worth sharing.
 
Vineon said:
This still isn't a valid point. If there is less demand for abortions, there is less professionals practicing it. Those would likely be doing something else in the medical world. It takes up ressources in the wider global healthcare system.
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Yeah, and if there werent so many McDonalds being built, we would have more resources to shelter the 3.5 million currently homeless Americans. If we put quotas on fat people we would have more food to feed the nearly 1 billion starving people in this world. I understand what youre getting at, but this really just isn't relevant to abortion. The technology and knowledge exists already, and there is a market for it.

Vineon said:
That said, it should still be allowed and free to all women.. but only up to a level so it doesn't reach abuse point. Rare are women that abuse anyway, as going through an abortion is not a pleasuring experience women enjoy going through (much less many times).

I say after the first abortion (always leaving rape and direct danger to health aside), there should be a portion of the cost paid by the woman.
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I kinda like this idea. It helps compromise between the "women need to have a choice" and the "sluts dont deserve government handouts" crowd. Accidents happen, but more than one is really pushing it when the government could be using my tax dollars to stop laying off teachers and whatnot.
 
Since when is abortion free?

I was under the impression that since it is a medical procedure requiring a doctor's time, it would cost money, if nothing else for the insurance company.
Unless of course you're on a government welfare program, which I don't support in their current state anyways.
 
Just thought I would mention, abortions are not necessarly the safest thing for a woman to be doing. Abortions can have many many side effects. I had a co worker that had an abortion and her uterus was never functional again. Eventually her uterus started to fall apart and fall out. Other girls have died due to complications with abortions and many have mental issues after. Treating abortions as loosly as many people do puts the mothers lifes at risk too. If my co worker had just had her baby (she was forced to have an abortion by her parents) she would be able to have a child later in life when she i ready too.
 
Lexite said:
If my co worker had just had her baby (she was forced to have an abortion by her parents) she would be able to have a child later in life when she i ready too.
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Why doesn't she just adopt, I mean if people are actually following the suggestions you're giving of have children adopted then there are surely kids out there that need adopting.
 
If you read my post you would see that she was forced to have an abortion by her parents. Another flaw with treating abortions so loosley. The parents fan force their daughters into something they dont want and in my co-worker's case something that is permanetly damaging. She is in her early 20s and her uterus is trashed and she will never be able to have a child.

And look Akuchi, I worked with this girl, I saw her the day she had to rush to the doctor because she was in so much pain from her uterus falling apart. Anecdotal evidence? I was there! What, just because you cannot beat me you need proof? Go look it up! And I was there. I sent her home early, she came in the next day and told me what heppened, that IS proof you insensitive witch.
 
What is so funny about that? I was there the day she had to rush to the doctor. She had told me about that had happened the day before and i was there the day she went in and the day she came back. I saw her in pain. What, can you not read? That is not anecdotal evidence. It is not just a story, it is a hard fact and there are many others out there as well. She turned in the doctors note, that is hard evidence!
 
You are really just pulling straws now. You are the one that looks like a fool. You cannot get your anecdotal evidence so now you are grasping for anotehr chance. If she had given birth she would have been fine, but since she was forced to have the abortion now she can never have children, and she really wanted to be able to have children later in life.
 
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