About HTML Declares (or lack thereof)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Greetings users and staff of PS!

My IGN is Daiquiri, used to be AmazingPolitoed as my smogon username, and I'm RO in the Spanish room. I'd like to talk about the withdrawal of HTML declares in public rooms and hopefully give my/our point of view on the matter.

The ability to use HTML in public declarations was a most valuable asset for us. They were a tool with which we could bring fun activities to users in an organized manner and announce them with images or links and they would have enough visibility for everyone to see while they wouldn't come off as some sort of pesky advertising. Furthermore, it was a quick and handy tool to even ease up the atmosphere sometimes or get the users to have a good laugh with us.

I talked very briefly with TI about it but he couldn't explain it very well to me other than "it was being abused" before I had to abruptly disconnect. Later I was told by other people that it had something to do with people posting buttons leading to private rooms. I don't know how accurate that is, but I think just taking HTML declares from all ROs due to two or three people not living up to the expectancies of this rank is a rather simplistic solution, and is in turn hindering those rooms in which the room owners actually give declares a good use, instead of taking care of people that are abusing their rank or the tools that come with it.

I really think this was a step back not in room management but yes in room dynamics and activities, and I see no reason why it should be taken away from us instead of applying discipline on the people that make a bad use of it. I'm sure other ROs along the PS public rooms feel the same way as me, but I'm hoping they will express their opinions here whether they agree or disagree with me.

Also while I'm at it I would like to thank Smogon and its staff to provide a channel of communication in which these sort of things can be talked about as a whole community.

Thanks for your attention. Regards, Daiquiri.
 

panpawn

You Can't See Me
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Heya, I'm panpawn.

I'm a RO in The Studio and I can agree that HTML declares have been very helpful in many rooms in many different aspects. May it be a room activity or to, as AP said, "lighten the mood", the ability to HTML declare has certainly been rather helpful. I know that many rooms that have used HTML declares on a regular basis, one of which is the Wi-Fi room- as it has many different room links and the HTML helped them to create helpful and convenient banners to help new users to the room to get the hang of things, so to speak.

Just as with any other "power" a room rank has, an HTML declare is one that is meant to be fit for a RO... Now, if that said RO cannot handle this power, then why were they appointed to begin with?

I have some examples of the room banners that I've personally used in my room that have been rather helpful to both regulars and new users:

Best regards,
panpawn
 
The staff are actually in a discussion which could assist in coming to some kind of judgement on this. I really do think they're useful, and the only part of it that was unnecessary was the <button> feature. I'd love to see them back, but it's down to Zarel.
 

Astara

no u
is a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
I think I must agree, using HTML does help out in many rooms, speaking from my point of view and since I'm a moderator in Game Corner, we use that to play games sometimes when the RO's are online, not only does it make most of the rooms a lot more entertaining to be in, but it also cheers up the users most of the time.
I have known about the "abuses" being committed but as long as it's not an everyday issue in every room I think it should be implemented in the rooms. :)
 
I am 100% in agreement with the above post. I am an Owner of The Happy Place on the main server and I would also like to post a couple of my thoughts regarding this topic. The loss of HTML commands is rather discomforting to me for a couple reasons, not just for THP's room itself but the server as a whole. Looking at it bluntly declares in a sense are now just different color /wall commands with a slight flare. As AP stated, in the past we could use declares to post helpful information about our room's website and rules with quick access to users. Combine those hyperlinks with a picture and you get a warm and friendly environment open for users. These sorts of commands embraced talking and social interaction, THP strived when we started to implement most of these declares. These things endorsed fun and excitement for our users, taking it away in my opinion just makes it more an up-tight scenario.

If it is indeed the case that a couple ROs are not to be trusted with these commands, why shut it down so suddenly for everyone? These users usually get to these ranks with good reason, they should understand the concept taking care of the room. If for some reason there were complaints about declare spam in a room, why not base action with that said RO and room? If for example I decide to post gifs and pictures every 20 minutes which don't help the room in any way, why should the Spanish room suffer?

I just don't see the logic of taking something away that helped make many rooms strive if there were just a couple problems with a few users. ROs should understand the concept of having responsibility. Surely this could of all of been avoided with a conversation with said Owners.


The staff are actually in a discussion which could assist in coming to some kind of judgement on this. I really do think they're useful, and the only part of it that was unnecessary was the <button> feature. I'd love to see them back, but it's down to Zarel.
This was something I was just going to bring up. To be frank I don't think the <button> feature proves any worth for the rooms. It does endorse spam with be able to PM flood individual users. If the straw that broke the camels back was this feature, why not just take out this command for ROs and be done with this mess. I surely would be happy with that sort of compromise.
 
I agree whole-heartedly with Daiquiri concerning this recent issue. HTML declares are very useful for my room, the Studio; Panpawn (a fellow owner) has designed several intricate HTML declares which quickly allow users to visit specific external pages concerning the room, such as our Plug.dj room, activities on our website, and rules. Along with the functional aspects of HTML declares, they also add to the general friendly atmosphere which we strive to maintain in the rooms I am a part of; it is customary in The Happy Place to declare a congratulatory gif when a user is promoted.
HTML being scrapped as a whole is something which severely sets back rooms on Showdown as a whole, and I am positive that there are ways to deal with the recent abuses that do not involve eradicating HTML from declares as a whole.
Of course, this is obviously not my decision to make, nor is it for any of the other owners, but it is something about which I would like to make my voice heard, and I hope that this message does help reinforce what Daiquiri and the other owners are saying.
Thank you.
 

Dell

majestic pride.
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hi there.

The main issue is that there was no easy way to remove the buttons without removing everything all together, and soon it got out of hand. If I'm not mistaken, there was also a concern about it causing some server lag as well (but I'm not entirely sure on that). I believe that Zarel might be working on a new command just that will work just for images, so I'll tag in case he may have a little more information about that. I agree that it should still be a thing for Room Owners much like you guys, since from my understanding it's mostly used as a building block for advertising various room topics, activities, and other things that really draws attention to the rooms.

Edit: Vacate posted the info.
 
Last edited:

panpawn

You Can't See Me
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
If buttons are the only issue with HTML in declare...

if (target.indexOf('<button ') > -1) {
return this.sendReply('HTML buttons are not supported in this command.')
}

e_e ?
 
The new command to show images is actually already up. It's /showimage, but you have to specify the dimensions for the images also, which can be a pain at times.
 
The new command to show images is actually already up. It's /showimage, but you have to specify the dimensions for the images also, which can be a pain at times.
well, this is something, at any rate. I do really appreciate that this issue is being recognized, and hopefully a full solution will be found.
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
We have a /showimage command for showing images, and an /announce command which allows links. I don't see what the problem is. What kind of "full solution" are you looking for?
 
We have a /showimage command for showing images, and an /announce command which allows links. I don't see what the problem is.
For me anyway, it's the fact that the ability to format declares with HTML as a whole was removed simply because of specific abuse of a specific aspect of HTML.
I dunno.
 
I'm more concerned about hyperlinks than images honestly. And like I said, HTML declares were a way to present information or accesibility to activities and such in a tidy manner. /wall -link- is not the same as the ability to post several helpful hyperlinks in the same message in a way that wouldn't bother the userbase.
 

panpawn

You Can't See Me
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
We have a /showimage command for showing images, and an /announce command which allows links. I don't see what the problem is.
Well, having just /announce and /showimage is still taking away from other abilities that we could do with a declare to enhance the room. As Dell said, if buttons are the only issue with RO's declaring, then why not just simply remove that one tag from the declare command?

Having declare allows us to do hyperlink and do other HTML "fun" that enhances the room more and, from my prospective and that of what I think to be many others, more enjoyable.
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
The problem with HTML is that it can't be controlled. <button> was just one of many features that can be abused. We can't just play whack-a-mole with it.

Even links can be abused, which is why normal PS markup only allows links by URL or by Google's first search result, instead of by any link text.

Why can't you just announce a link to a page that has several helpful hyperlinks in the same message?
 

panpawn

You Can't See Me
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Well, I mean, sure, it *can* get abused... Anything can; but why would a RO be in a position of trust if they are not worthy of it to begin with if they cannot handle this command?

Using the HTML hyperlink tag is helpful because it looks more aesthetically pleasing and aids the room better and is more noticeable than just a regular link in my personal opinion.
 

scene

Banned deucer.
There's certainly ways around a lack of HTML declares, for example what Zarel's just stated. While:
may be fun, there's little to nothing on it that isn't common sense or part of a widely known command, and I think that applies to a lot of stuff on HTML declares. I've had fun with them in the past in my rooms, but links do essentially the same job and don't have whatever the issues HTML declares have with regards to the smooth running of the sim. Things were fine and dandy before they existed, and they'll be just fine if we do unfortunately have to give them up.
 
The problem with HTML is that it can't be controlled. <button> was just one of many features that can be abused. We can't just play whack-a-mole with it.

Even links can be abused, which is why normal PS markup only allows links by URL or by Google's first search result, instead of by any link text.

Why can't you just announce a link to a page that has several helpful hyperlinks in the same message?
yeah i mean, we perfectly could, but that doesnt make it ideal. as i said, it takes away from accesibility, even if it doesnt completely shut it off.

@ scene, things were fine and dandy before a lot of things, but i dont see this as a reason not to grow and improve, even if its just mere aesthetics.

i think the ultimate problem here are not html declares, but ROs not abiding by ps rules.

excuse the lack of grammar, im on a pesky phone rn
 
Well, I mean, sure, it *can* get abused... Anything can; but why would a RO be in a position of trust if they are not worthy of it to begin with if they cannot handle this command?

Using the HTML hyperlink tag is helpful because it looks more aesthetically pleasing and aids the room better and is more noticeable than just a regular link in my personal opinion.
I have to agree with panpawn.

If a Room Owner cannot be trusted with such a command or access to HTML links, then why on earth is said person a Room Owner? In my opinion, a Room Owner is a person of superlative trust, a person who is essentially in charge of the dynamic of the room he or she is leading. Why ruin the fun for everybody else when it is the people who ruin it who should be punished.

Apart from 'abuse', which can easily be solved with a demote, what other problems does this have?

Also, I'd like to add that having one image with multiple links is far superior than having to post multiple links with /wall or /declare, especially for rooms such as The Studio and the Spanish room, wherein there are multiple official links of which users should be aware, such as rules, official rules, and any other external website, be it plug.dj, forums, or whatever.


While it may be easy to merely 'ban' all access to HTML images, I find it a LOT more serious that there are Room Owners who abuse it. I mean, you can win the battle, but you can't win the war.
 

Dell

majestic pride.
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
yeah i mean, we perfectly could, but that doesnt make it ideal. as i said, it takes away from accesibility, even if it doesnt completely shut it off.

@ scene, things were fine and dandy before a lot of things, but i dont see this as a reason not to grow and improve, even if its just mere aesthetics.

i think the ultimate problem here are not html declares, but ROs not abiding by ps rules.

excuse the lack of grammar, im on a pesky phone rn
While I do see where you're coming from (aesthetics are nice, yeah), we also have to care about the well-being of the server itself; a lot of the cool features that we do implement to the server are going to have an affect on the server's overall speed and security. This is the main reason why certain things are restricted (such as room suggestions, command group requirements, tournament script, HTML declares, etc.). That's why there is a such thing as keeping a healthy balance between what's 'cool' and what's 'convenient' for Pokemon Showdown.

Also in this case, this is not just about making the server better. The well-being of our users (you guys) was threatened when the HTML declare command was used to spam people's PMs. I'm sure that you guys wouldn't want to have to deal with that, and that was part of why it got restricted.

Needless to say, I understand the backlash (and currently we are looking at how the RO position should be interpreted), but at the end of the day I think we can deal with what we have for the time being.
 
After reading this through I agree with the people here, there is no sense in removing HTML declares over disciplining the users abusing it. My question on this whole matter is a matter of mindset for improvement. Why do you prefer to boycott the HTML declares as a whole and go through the trouble of upsetting the community like this, rather than disciplining the one's abusing it? I mean, to be frank, a lot of PS's staff lists could use improvements (imo) and punishing the HTML abusers would be like hitting two birds with one stone. I think most of the people here agree that /showimage and /announce aren't a good enough substitute for HTML declares. Why take a step back and do link and image individually rather than combined?
 

panpawn

You Can't See Me
is a Programmer Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Also in this case, this is not just about making the server better. The well-being of our users (you guys) was threatened when the HTML declare was command used to spam people's PMs. I'm sure that you guys wouldn't want to have to deal with that, and that was part of why it got restricted.
Just as easily as one could link to a malicious site, one could also hyper link to them.

As for the "PM spam button", again, if that was what was being abused then I still do not understand why that tag isn't restricted. From there, if people in a RO position, one that is of trust, is still abusing it, then why not take further action from there?

While I do see where you're coming from (aesthetics are nice, yeah), we also have to care about the well-being of the server itself; a lot of the cool features that we do implement to the server are going to have an affect on the server's overall speed and security.
This is a website, and one of the key things to a website is, in the essence, aesthetics. So, I wouldn't say that they aren't that important to an extent.

I think that if a RO is truly fit for their position that they would also have these in "lights" in the back of their mind of what is to and what is to not benefit the server.

I guess what I'm trying to say is why not take this one step at a time with eliminating the tags that have truly proven to be malicious, such as buttons from the declare command versus eliminating HTML as a whole.
 
While I do see where you're coming from (aesthetics are nice, yeah), we also have to care about the well-being of the server itself; a lot of the cool features that we do implement to the server are going to have an affect on the server's overall speed and security. This is the main reason why certain things are restricted (such as room suggestions, command group requirements, tournament script, HTML declares, etc.). That's why there is a such thing as keeping a healthy balance between what's 'cool' and what's 'convenient' for Pokemon Showdown.

Also in this case, this is not just about making the server better. The well-being of our users (you guys) was threatened when the HTML declare command was used to spam people's PMs. I'm sure that you guys wouldn't want to have to deal with that, and that was part of why it got restricted.

Needless to say, I understand the backlash (and currently we are looking at how the RO position should be interpreted), but at the end of the day I think we can deal with what we have for the time being.
Well if the problem is server load or something of that nature, its really beyond my understanding, though they /were/ a thing until now.

Apart from that, i dont think you're looking at it ideally. I care for the users aswell and Im more worried by the fact that you're admitting there are people in high positions that are cappable and morally free to mass pm spam regular users. At this point the whole thing goes beyond html declares and said tool should not be blamed.
 
Last edited:
Hey, ro of new room table top here, and I mainly agree with the likes of panpawn and AmazingPolitoed. I'm also a room moderator in wifi, and one of the ROs was abusing the button command, so we scolded him, and he stopped. I don't really understand why we have to remove the whole system, when we could easily warn the people abusing it, and provide punishment if they continue. HTML was used by almost every room to add some color and life to the chat, and make the users impressed, while adding accessibility and simplicity to getting certain links and/or important announcements that the room needs to see. Wouldn't you, as a regular user just coming on to ps, be much more impressed reading something in red font that could scroll, rather than a plain old boring declare? Declares are really similar to /wall without HTML, ands there no point of giving that added privledge ROs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top